Sleeping pilot

[Sailvi767]

If management is truly concerned the pilot fell asleep they would use a 3 man crew on trips of this length.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/05/29/pilots-fell-asleep-flying-plane-sparked-terrorist-high-jacking/

[kenparry]

In the days before JAA, when Italy ran FTL under its own national rules, they could (and did) roster Rome to New York and return within a single duty period - and, I think, with only a 2-pilot crew.

[vilas]

With controlled rest one of them can sleep. The flight time does not justify third pilot.

[Check Airman]

With controlled rest one of them can sleep. The flight time does not justify third pilot.

The events of the day seem to suggest otherwise. Some airlines crew flights with a third or fourth pilot, not because it’s strictly required, but because safety data indicates it makes good sense to do so.

[BristolScout]

Back in pre-history - i.e. before 9/11 - a member of cabin crew would pop into the flight deck every twenty minutes or so to check that all was well. I'm pretty sure that the awareness of this helped to keep us focussed. Locked doors are not an unalloyed benefit.

[Sailvi767]

With controlled rest one of them can sleep. The flight time does not justify third pilot.

The US rules require a third pilot. NYC to Rome is not a short flight and controlled rest is basically a joke. To many things can interrupt such a rest and a cockpit seat is never great for sleep.

[Youmightsaythat]

Someone should have warned the aviation establishment about fatigued pilots #ohholdon.I did.
I can' say to much because the contents of book two and three in the series Pulling Wings From Butterflies were presented to the police who are currently investigating the failures of the airlines and regulators to deal with fatigue issues.

Its the story of the aviation establishment don't want told, pilots and cabin crew are afraid to tell but passengers need to know.
So why is it pilots are complicit in this fatigue issue?

The following is taken from Book two;

“Ask yourself the following question. Would you make a stand in the interests of passenger and crew safety if you knew it would likely risk your career and position that you had spent decades and tens of thousands of pounds building? A career which, at least for the first few years, meant having no money and required two jobs to survive? Would you risk your family’s financial future and the probability that you could no longer service your financial commitments? Would you risk having your good name and reputation trashed, marked as “difficult”, labelled “dishonest” and have your “integrity” challenged by the industry establishment, all for doing the right thing?
If you concluded that no, you would not take a stand because of the enormous personal ramifications, don’t feel too bad. If you are reading this book sitting on an aircraft as a passenger, it will therefore come as no surprise that the two pilots currently sitting a few feet away from you in the cockpit will have quite likely come to the same conclusion, on more than one occasion. It’s not worth the personal upheaval to do the right thing. It’s just not worth upsetting management. Now, sit back, relax and enjoy your flight”

Excerpt "Pulling Wings from Butterflies - Tercio de Banderillas"

[compressor stall]

What's the usual flight time(s)?

[Bryan Kiing]

IMHO inexcusable to fall asleep.How do I deal with it? I think to myself of all the $ effort and time I spent to get 'up front' and say to myself..all gone if I nod off...THAT scares me awake !

[VORDME2]

In the days before JAA, when Italy ran FTL under its own national rules, they could (and did) roster Rome to New York and return within a single duty period - and, I think, with only a 2-pilot crew.

it was 17hrs with 2pilots, 24hr with 3pilots and 3hrs extension (or discretion) in case of delay…😬

[cessnapete]

I have noticed some US airlines operate 3 pilot across the Atlantic from East Coast. Not particularly long sectors 7/8 hours.
Most European Companies operate 2 crew.
BA for example operate all E Coast USA trips with a two pilot crew on all types, including the A380. Includes UK- Chicago, Washington , and Canada Montreal and Toronto etc.. Prestwick -Atlanta also was operated two crew on B4744F BA Cargo.
Controlled Rest is of course a UK CAA allowed procedure.

[Nick 1]

Legal , in this case FTL vise , does not means safe .

[vilas]

The US rules require a third pilot. NYC to Rome is not a short flight and controlled rest is basically a joke. To many things can interrupt such a rest and a cockpit seat is never great for sleep.
There's no short flight or long flight. Regulations tell you categorically when relief pilot is required. Controlled rest has become a joke after it was allowed, ask me who flew in an era when it wasn't allowed. Anyway we discussed sometime back Airbus planning to do single pilot cruise on long flights in A350 with Cathay. I don't want to repeat that.

[Mogwi]

I can' say to much because the contents of book two and three in the series Pulling Wings From Butterflies were presented to the police who are currently investigating the failures of the airlines and regulators to deal with fatigue issues.

Its the story of the aviation establishment don't want told, pilots and cabin crew are afraid to tell but passengers need to know.


As an author, perhaps you should proof-read your posts better. You will give us authors a bad name.

Mog

[Sailvi767]

What's the usual flight time(s)?

FCO to JFK in the winter is 10:30 to 10:45 block.

[Youmightsaythat]

I can' say to much because the contents of book two and three in the series Pulling Wings From Butterflies were presented to the police who are currently investigating the failures of the airlines and regulators to deal with fatigue issues.

Its the story of the aviation establishment don't want told, pilots and cabin crew are afraid to tell but passengers need to know.


As an author, perhaps you should proof-read your posts better. You will give us authors a bad name.

Mog
When you are as busy as I am, you will have to put up with the odd issue ;)

[Youmightsaythat]

A common misconception. Just complying with FDP does not make it legal. It also has to comply with EU ops legislation regarding fatigue.

[Emma Royds]

Maybe they were just training for what is around the corner: :E

EASA Extended Minimum Crew Operations – Single Pilot Operations (https://www.easa.europa.eu/research-projects/extended-minimum-crew-operations-single-pilot-operations-safety-risk-assessment)

[oceancrosser]

The events of the day seem to suggest otherwise. Some airlines crew flights with a third or fourth pilot, not because it’s strictly required, but because safety data indicates it makes good sense to do so.
I would really like to see a list of airlines that assign more pilots to flights than absolutely required, either by authorities or contracts…

[Alpine Flyer]

Controlled rest is a contingency procedure and should not be used to plan otherwise unsafe duties. It is not only the duration but also the time of day and the sequence of duties that matters. There is a difference between one and two nights in New York and afternoon and evening departures. There is nothing that will keep you from falling asleep on the flight deck if you're tired enough.

[Una Due Tfc]

Only saw the first few lines of the story due the subscription but sacking him seems very harsh, assume there's more to this.

I'm back in my own bed every night, as are my colleagues. It is not unheard of for ATCOs to fall asleep in the seat either. Shift work is tough, we all have lives outside of work that intrude from time to time. I hope he is in a Union and this isn't the end of the matter for him.

[MissChief]

In the days before JAA, when Italy ran FTL under its own national rules, they could (and did) roster Rome to New York and return within a single duty period - and, I think, with only a 2-pilot crew.
Surely not?? Where do you have proof of this?

[Koan]

Heard a very reliable story from directly from fellow commuter pilots dozed off and were actually intercepted in late 1990s. Prior to TOD and nothing really happened to them. However if a flight even scraped by P-56 in broad daylight they were sure to get a visit from Secret Service!

[HowardB]

On trains you have a dead man's handle that stops the train if the driver doesn't respond. While stopping a plane is not possible (unless its fitted with the new emergency divert/land system), surely its not beyond the bounds of possibility that something to wake the crew could be installed on the flight deck to generate an alarm if it is not responded to?

[hans brinker]

On trains you have a dead man's handle that stops the train if the driver doesn't respond. While stopping a plane is not possible (unless its fitted with the new emergency divert/land system), surely its not beyond the bounds of possibility that something to wake the crew could be installed on the flight deck to generate an alarm if it is not responded to?

It is called a "cell phone" or "mobile". you set the timer to 20 minutes and voila......

[Check Airman]

I would really like to see a list of airlines that assign more pilots to flights than absolutely required, either by authorities or contracts…

Speaking to friends at American, Delta, United, Atlas and Kalitta, they all operate flights that carry extra pilots. Obviously not every flight, but on some flights the airlines accept that legal doesn’t mean safe.

[wiggy]

On trains you have a dead man's handle that stops the train if the driver doesn't respond. While stopping a plane is not possible (unless its fitted with the new emergency divert/land system), surely its not beyond the bounds of possibility that something to wake the crew could be installed on the flight deck to generate an alarm if it is not responded to?

They exist....some types have a function as part of the general warning system that monitors the the interval between crew input to several systems on the flight deck.

If there was nil crew activity for too long (defined period, varied on phase of flight) it gave the crew a quiet nudge (e.g. EICAS message "Crew Response"), If that didn't trigger a button push from the crew then it escalates to a very noisy warning.

[wiggy]

Speaking to friends at American, Delta, United, Atlas and Kalitta, they all operate flights that carry extra pilots. Obviously not every flight, but on some flights the airlines accept that legal doesn’t mean safe.

I think many of us who did Long Haul from the European side of the pond were very envious of the fact that it appeared as if the US operators stuck a third pilot on if the flight was oceanic in any way shape or form, and this requirement was down to Union agreements, rather then any benevolence on the part of the airlines..

Can anyone State side confirm or deny?

[Bergerie1]

My wife, who was a stewardess before I married her, went onto the flight deck of a Britannia in the middle of the night to find all four crew members fast asleep. She decided that this was not a good idea in mid-Atlantic, so went up behing the captain and said, 'Boo!' in a very loud voice. He was most unamused but it had the right effect.

[Fly3]

I operated in Italy in the early 90's when three crew (a captain and two first officers) plus two serviceable FMC's constituted a "double crew". This allowed a flight time limitation of 24 hours which could be extended by half of any time spend on the ground. There were no limitations on the number of sectors flown and my worst day involved 11 flights and a duty period of 26 hours! Absolutely crazy but totally legal at that time.

[CargoOne]

Sizeable country with FAA Caterogory 1 rating. Until this year, FTL was allowing for 24 hours duty period with two pilots, number of sectors not limited.

[5 APUs captain]

Someone should have warned the aviation establishment about fatigued pilots #ohholdon.I did.
I can' say to much because the contents of book two and three in the series Pulling Wings From Butterflies were presented to the police who are currently investigating the failures of the airlines and regulators to deal with fatigue issues.

Its the story of the aviation establishment don't want told, pilots and cabin crew are afraid to tell but passengers need to know.
So why is it pilots are complicit in this fatigue issue?

The following is taken from Book two;

“Ask yourself the following question. Would you make a stand in the interests of passenger and crew safety if you knew it would likely risk your career and position that you had spent decades and tens of thousands of pounds building? A career which, at least for the first few years, meant having no money and required two jobs to survive? Would you risk your family’s financial future and the probability that you could no longer service your financial commitments? Would you risk having your good name and reputation trashed, marked as “difficult”, labelled “dishonest” and have your “integrity” challenged by the industry establishment, all for doing the right thing?
If you concluded that no, you would not take a stand because of the enormous personal ramifications, don’t feel too bad. If you are reading this book sitting on an aircraft as a passenger, it will therefore come as no surprise that the two pilots currently sitting a few feet away from you in the cockpit will have quite likely come to the same conclusion, on more than one occasion. It’s not worth the personal upheaval to do the right thing. It’s just not worth upsetting management. Now, sit back, relax and enjoy your flight”

Excerpt "Pulling Wings from Butterflies - Tercio de Banderillas"


B I N G O !!!

Fatigue is a REAL CONTINUOUS problem in today’s aviation…

[Sailvi767]

I think many of us who did Long Haul from the European side of the pond were very envious of the fact that it appeared as if the US operators stuck a third pilot on if the flight was oceanic in any way shape or form, and this requirement was down to Union agreements, rather then any benevolence on the part of the airlines..

Can anyone State side confirm or deny?

Delta’s pilot contract requires a third pilot on any flight over 8 hours and a two Captains and two FO’s over 12 hours. As a rule the airline normally staffs most Atlantic flights with 3 pilots even under 8 hours to help reliability. US FAR’s on the return leg from Europe can specify a maximum total duty time as low as 9 hours for a 2-man crew. Any delays would force a cancelation without the third pilot. In addition you can’t call the crew at the Hotel and delay the pickup. Duty day starts at scheduled pickup unless you get about 10 hours prior notification.

[KAPAC]

Delta’s pilot contract requires a third pilot on any flight over 8 hours and a two Captains and two FO’s over 12 hours. As a rule the airline normally staffs most Atlantic flights with 3 pilots even under 8 hours to help reliability. US FAR’s on the return leg from Europe can specify a maximum total duty time as low as 9 hours for a 2-man crew. Any delays would force a cancelation without the third pilot. In addition you can’t call the crew at the Hotel and delay the pickup. Duty day starts at scheduled pickup unless you get about 10 hours prior notification.

Seems like a safe , fair and profitable system . The industry outside of the states seems to be still in the race to the bottom , maybe in 10-20 years we will catch up when pendulum swings back ? I’ll be long gone but next gen might be lucky ?

[wiggy]

Many thanks Sailvi767

[RichardJones]

The US rules require a third pilot. NYC to Rome is not a short flight and controlled rest is basically a joke. To many things can interrupt such a rest and a cockpit seat is never great for sleep.

Lol, I never had any trouble sleeping, especially over the South Atlantic. One night, destination, Campinis, the load master came up front and found the 3 of us ALL sound asleep. He soon woke us up. That was after a long duty period.

I encouraged "controlled rest" if someone let me know they would like to "put their head down" for half an hour or so. That was during the time it was strongly discouraged by the authorities. My argument for it was this. It is better to have a crockpit crew member rested, rather than 2 or 3 cockpit crew members exhausted battling to stay awake for hours on end. No condition to act in an emergency. Nice to have at least one crew member "rested". IMHO.

[Check Airman]

It certainly isn’t benevolence, but the airlines simply accept that some tight scheduling practices simply aren’t safe, so some flights get a 3rd pilot.

Take a round trip from NY to the Caribbean- it may just be doable with 2 pilots, but why risk the crew going fatigued down route and then having to cancel the northbound flight, when you can put a relief pilot on board, and operate more reliably?

My airline recently started service to a Caribbean destination a few times a week, where the schedule had a crew deadhead outbound, then operate the leg back home. After having significant delays when the first few crews were too tired to fly back, it’s now scheduled as a 48hr layover.

[blimey]

Any 24 hour layover will probably leave you hanging in the straps - you cannot control your sleep patterns by drawing the curtains and sticking earplugs in.

[Check Airman]

Any 24 hour layover will probably leave you hanging in the straps - you cannot control your sleep patterns by drawing the curtains and sticking earplugs in.
Airlines here don't get that. They're fond of giving us 30 hr layovers where you fly until midnight on the first day, and then leave at 6am on the third day. The long layover looks great on paper though.

[the_stranger]

Any 24 hour layover will probably leave you hanging in the straps - you cannot control your sleep patterns by drawing the curtains and sticking earplugs in.
It all depends.

I am about to start a europe-US east coast flight, 8hrs flighttime (back slightly less).

Reporting 11.50lt, finished at midnight homebase time. About 21hrs rest before flying back and to be honest, that works better for me than tagging another day onto the restperiod.

The second night I always sleep less well than the first and I feel more rested when flying back after only 1 night at destination.

[Discorde]

There are apocryphal reports of VC10 flight crew (two pilots & F/E) all sleeping until woken by the Mach clacker (overspeed warning) triggered by the aircraft accelerating as weight reduced as fuel burnt (no autothrottle in cruise flight).

[blind pew]

Iirc in the 70s a dc8 or 707 freighter overflew it’s west coast destination and were fortunately woken up by repeated selcal transmissions whilst they still had enough fuel after doing a 180 and getting to an airfield.
Fallen asleep in descent during my annual route check on the last sector back to Europe from the east coast and witnessed a few other colleagues accidentally falling asleep including a management pilot who had just given out about a fellow copilot doing same. FE and I commented and a few months later procédures were changed.
In both my first and last company management fiddled schedules so that we « accidentally » exceeded agreed flight time limitations. The first using airport standby for what was a scheduled operation to Nicosia and back at night; the other were Atlanta during winter where we regularly arrived an hour late west bound and another after the Alaskan volcano went bang and we routed Tokyo - Bombay - Zurich without a heavy crew..again with a management pilot.
Had à mate who managed to miss calling the Swiss when passing over the country…but not through sleeping.

[B2N2]

The Capt got sacked for falling asleep and not answering the radio and Pprune descends into duty times and here is was and I heard this debate.
Heres the obvious question; what was the FO doing while the Capt was asleep?

[oceancrosser]

The Capt got sacked for falling asleep and not answering the radio and Pprune descends into duty times and here is was and I heard this debate.
Heres the obvious question; what was the FO doing while the Capt was asleep?

Capitan Speaking and F/O Sleeping? Those two were frequently mentioned in Straight & Level in Flight in days gone by…

[B2N2]

Capitan Speaking and F/O Sleeping? Those two were frequently mentioned in Straight & Level in Flight in days gone by…

Point being there’s information missing.
That was a 2 person crew and one got sacked for sleeping? FO turn him in?

[Denti]

AvHerald (https://avherald.com/h?article=4f9876b7&opt=0) has usually more reliable information. Apparently the FO was taking an approved controlled rest on the flightdeck, and the captain later on tried to explain the whole situation by blaming "malfunctioning" com equipment. Which seems to be the reason for his dismissal rather than the falling asleep thing itself.

[Twiglet1]

Any 24 hour layover will probably leave you hanging in the straps - you cannot control your sleep patterns by drawing the curtains and sticking earplugs in.
Nope not all. Most EU/UK - USA are day / night rotations but there are others e.g. freight night / day rotations where crews have 24-30hrs rest. They arrive have a few hours kip, get up then have a full EU/UK local night rest then an immediate departure.
For MXP-JFK 10.30 + FDP clearly ATA have loads of money to buy new A350 and a nice shiny colour scheme but not have gone low cost on the manning level.

[RichardJones]

Going from a 3, to a 2 person cockpit was a bad move, as far as safety goes. However we must never let safety get in the way of profits. Corporate greed, nothing less.

[CDRW]

IMHO inexcusable to fall asleep.How do I deal with it? I think to myself of all the $ effort and time I spent to get 'up front' and say to myself..all gone if I nod off...THAT scares me awake !
"what a crock of **** "

[CDRW]

On trains you have a dead man's handle that stops the train if the driver doesn't respond. While stopping a plane is not possible (unless its fitted with the new emergency divert/land system), surely its not beyond the bounds of possibility that something to wake the crew could be installed on the flight deck to generate an alarm if it is not responded to?
There is...Pilot Response

[the_stranger]

"what a crock of **** "
He must be a robot, android or super human who knows no fatigue, emotion or empathy.

​​​​​​

[beachbumflyer]

Speaking to friends at American, Delta, United, Atlas and Kalitta, they all operate flights that carry extra pilots. Obviously not every flight, but on some flights the airlines accept that legal doesn’t mean safe.
And the pilots at the US Legacies make more money. So what are the European airlines saving by not having another FO? Less than 0.01% of the flight cost? Just guessing.

[parabellum]

Among foreign airlines Singapore Airlines can be counted as operating a crewing system very similar to that of Delta, always erring on the side of safety, certainly during the ten years I was a 747-400 captain with them.

[FLCH]

At where I work we mostly have 3 man crews except a few destinations going across the Atlantic to Europe…..funny how those 2 man trips are always for pick up ;-)

[brakedwell]

In the early nineties we used to fly from Munich to Los Angeles in a 767 with a two pilot crew. About 13 to 13.5 hours and I can vouch that I was not near the top of my performance when we arrived at LA in the early evening rush time. I was very pleased to retire not long after we flew these scheduledt flights.

[Auxtank]

Yawn.

What are we talking about? - Oh, yeah, Pilot Fatigue.

Cool.

Wake me up if it gets more interesting.

I'm Knackered.

Got to do something about it.

[Chronic Snoozer]

In the early nineties we used to fly from Munich to Los Angeles in a 767 with a two pilot crew. About 13 to 13.5 hours and I can vouch that I was not near the top of my performance when we arrived at LA in the early evening rush time. I was very pleased to retire not long after we flew these scheduledt flights.

Extrapolate that to conclude that many, many thousands of flights have been flown with one or more crew members feeling the way you did and it's difficult not to reflect on how incredibly lucky we are that our "systems", ground and air, are reliable and safe.

[Goth]

On trains you have a dead man's handle that stops the train if the driver doesn't respond. While stopping a plane is not possible (unless its fitted with the new emergency divert/land system), surely its not beyond the bounds of possibility that something to wake the crew could be installed on the flight deck to generate an alarm if it is not responded to?
There's been a fair bit of discussion of this in the maritime sector - night watches in a warm, comfortable bridge in calm seas have a high risk of a lone watchkeeper falling asleep (or at least losing concentration) - this can be from fatigue, lack of stimulation or both. One of the solutions is to have a watch alarm that must be responded to on a certain timescale - if it isn't responded to it triggers an alarm elsewhere in the ship to alert the rest of the crew. A specific set of cabin intercom tones or an automated message might work for a plane?

[capricorn23]

In the early nineties we used to fly from Munich to Los Angeles in a 767 with a two pilot crew. About 13 to 13.5 hours and I can vouch that I was not near the top of my performance when we arrived at LA in the early evening rush time. I was very pleased to retire not long after we flew these scheduledt flights.
Me too... Lauda Air?

[Dea Certe]

I would hope the Purser or #1 would be doing periodic checks to see if coffee, food or leg stretch might be wanted. This should be discussed in the crew briefing. Captain and flight deck crew should be doing group briefings with cabin crew so everyone gets to meet and have a common strategy in place for the trip. It’s easy to get complacent and a proper crew preflight briefing is important to safety. Even just 5-7 minutes can solve issues before they start.

[NYCPK]

ITA pilots/crew have been under a lot of stress as most of them come from Alitalia and didn't know if they would keep their jobs. Indeed when I see crews walking through JFK T1 concourse to their aircraft, the uniform still says Alitalia - guess budgets are tight. Not justifying anything just adding in some perspective on the stress these folk have been through...

[lightonthewater]

There's been a fair bit of discussion of this in the maritime sector - night watches in a warm, comfortable bridge in calm seas have a high risk of a lone watchkeeper falling asleep (or at least losing concentration) - this can be from fatigue, lack of stimulation or both. One of the solutions is to have a watch alarm that must be responded to on a certain timescale - if it isn't responded to it triggers an alarm elsewhere in the ship to alert the rest of the crew. A specific set of cabin intercom tones or an automated message might work for a plane?

Modern ships do indeed have an alarm that sounds if a watch keeper does not respond on a regular basis, but many times accidents have happened because the alarm has 'malfunctioned' : ie someone has not turned it on, or has turned it off, as its just seen as inconvenient and irritating. Stupid, of course, but human nature is like that. Mind you, watch keepers are at sea for days and weeks not hours, so boredom and repetition are greater factors than would be experienced by airline pilots. (though, being a shipbroker, not a pilot, what would I know?)

.