displayed wind/V on a flight deck and not in GA cockpits?

[Double Back]

As simple as it seems, all modern airliners (and biz jets) feature displayed wind/V. Flying also in light GA SEP, I haven't seen it yet in GA planes, however I haven't flown types like the Cirrus, let alone types like a PC12
First You need GPS info, AND an airdata computer that both feed their values to a separate computer that distils W/V from them.
Is the complexity and cost so high that it is prohibitive in smaller a/c?

Richard

[KRviator]

Not really the cost but the administrative burden of getting an EFIS into the cockpit of certified planes. The Garmin G3X and Dynon SkyView have been doing it for years in Experimental's, and, from memory, the early Dynon D100's have done it for a decade or more there too.

Now the G3X & SV systems are STC'd you're starting to see them in more light planes with all their features.

[411A NG]

If you want to display actual wind data (and not downloaded data from a ground source) you'll need some kind of inertial nav platform that is probably still cost prohibitive for GA aircraft.
I wouldn't know how digital attitude systems could derive both wind vector and speed from airborne sensors just using attitude information?
You can quite easily get an overall wind speed by comparing TAS and GS (from GPS or DME) but that's about it?

[STBYRUD]

All the info you need is there, GPS track, GS, heading and TAS are all you need. The Garmin G1000 does show wind information, almost in the same way as the EFIS on airliners - even the miniscule Aspen Evolution can now display a wind vector - which airplanes did you not see it on? :}

[PPRuNe Towers]

W/V derived from a mathematical process called Kalman Filtering (https://www.kalmanfilter.net/default.aspx) - it must be a complex process as it introduces a 7 or 8 second lag in the EFIS/FMC displays. More meat in the link above.

Same method and hysteresis with ATC surface wind processing and reporting. If you really need to know instant W/V ask for 'spot wind.'

Rob

[DaveReidUK]

All the info you need is there, GPS track, GS, heading and TAS are all you need.

And a Dalton Computor helps. :O Or some elementary trig ...

In fact you can get a pretty good handle on the direction and strength of winds aloft at different altitudes if you have access to Mode S/EHS, which carries all four of those parameters.

[Vessbot]

No inertial nav needed, just any GPS groundspeed and track. The old ubiquitous Garmin 430 shows it, but you have to do half a minute of tediously entering info via the twisty knobs every time you want an answer; it doesn't continuously calculate and display it like fuller avionics suites do.

[StudentPilot479]

All the info you need is there, GPS track, GS, heading and TAS are all you need. The Garmin G1000 does show wind information, almost in the same way as the EFIS on airliners - even the miniscule Aspen Evolution can now display a wind vector - which airplanes did you not see it on? :}

The G1000 has wind vectors - but I have seen the main wind vector and the wind vector on the inset (both on the PFD) showing crosswinds from opposite directions at the same time. It normally occurs with light winds, but still curious how presumably the same calculations and data can come up with winds from opposite directions on the same PFD.

[FullWings]

W/V derived from a mathematical process called Kalman Filtering (https://www.kalmanfilter.net/default.aspx) - it must be a complex process as it introduces a 7 or 8 second lag in the EFIS/FMC displays. More meat in the link above.

Same method and hysteresis with ATC surface wind processing and reporting. If you really need to know instant W/V ask for 'spot wind.'

Rob
In gliding we now have instantaneous true wind and lift/sink indications available from several manufacturers. Hawk (https://gliding.lxnav.com/news/hawk-wind-calculation/) is the best known one.

No reason you shouldn’t be able to get this in light a/c but it’s probably not so much of a game-changer as it is in a sailplane.

[PPRuNe Towers]

As you well know it's regarding fully certified public transport aircraft with err, very mature processors and architecture. You know, the ones that had 256kb for the entire database...

Rob

[stilton]

If you want to display actual wind data (and not downloaded data from a ground source) you'll need some kind of inertial nav platform that is probably still cost prohibitive for GA aircraft.
I wouldn't know how digital attitude systems could derive both wind vector and speed from airborne sensors just using attitude information?
You can quite easily get an overall wind speed by comparing TAS and GS (from GPS or DME) but that's about it?


‘411A NG’

Really, are you related to the original ?

[Double Back]

I am a relative new SkyDemon user, still learning. I use a tablet with a built in SIM card, so whenever possible, I have, or should have en route connection. Till now I never saw en route any wind displayed, like I see when on the ground during preps, I see the W/V arrows displayed at intersecting meridians and parallels.
Lo and behold, yesterday I made a nav trip here in Spain, and apart form visible W/V arrows there was some extra wind info in the en route data line, topside of the chart, see pic. But I guess this one is derived from an interpolation of the next W/V arrows around You, which are coming from a meteorological database. I have no idea why I never saw them, maybe there was an update on the program.
SD has no input from IAS/TAS nor HDG.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/20220518_164509_4932079a26cf2a6ff8e84c8bc55bbfcda5a9bc10.jpg

[rigpiggy]

Or simply look at your heading vs track and GS vs TAS. You can get a very close approximation. Just mentalmath it

[Speed_Trim_Fail]

Or simply look at your heading vs track and GS vs TAS. You can get a very close approximation. Just mentalmath it

Heaven forbid! You’ll be suggesting students are taught to navigate with a sectional chart and a watch next.

Am I the only one who used to get a real kick out of navigating with a whizz wheel, sectional and a watch? There absolutely is a time and a place (around complex airspace is obviously a time to be using the 430/equivalent or fore flight etc).

Ironically I have rented plenty of light aeroplanes that had more advanced avionics that the airliners I fly for a living :}

[rudestuff]

Ironically I have rented plenty of light aeroplanes that had more advanced avionics that the airliners I fly for a living :}I've often thought that, It must look pretty basic coming from a 30 year old Cessna with a brand new glass cockpit to a brand new jet airliner with a 30 year old glass cockpit...

[Speed_Trim_Fail]

I've often thought that, It must look pretty basic coming from a 30 year old Cessna with a brand new glass cockpit to a brand new jet airliner with a 30 year old glass cockpit...

Both airliner and steam gauges on the flight deck were over 30 in my case - there are a lot of much better equipped GA aircraft about!

[Zar_1]

W/V derived from a mathematical process called Kalman Filtering (https://www.kalmanfilter.net/default.aspx) - it must be a complex process as it introduces a 7 or 8 second lag in the EFIS/FMC displays. More meat in the link above.

Same method and hysteresis with ATC surface wind processing and reporting. If you really need to know instant W/V ask for 'spot wind.'

Rob

Yeah, we use an EKF (Extended Kalman Filter) implemented in software, in the drones we make... it's definitely processing heavy.

We usually use either of 2 controllers... One's the APM, other's the Pixhawk.... and the APM just can't do EKF cause it's 8-bit.. while the Pixhawk can... cause it's 32-bit.

The Pixhawk uses EKF to smoothen out the Gyro and GPS Readings... and that gives it a much more smooth and coordinated flight. It's literally like the difference between how a (non-FBW) 737 feels vs a (FBW) A320 in terms of smoothness.

[Double Back]

Kalman filter... Learned that during my (50 Years ago, state paid :) ) ab initio airline pilot training, 2,5 Yr course, 250 hrs of which close to 100 hrs on twin engine jets... )... Had trouble to understand it completely, it was at the time no one owned a PC, programming was for aliens only.
Never heard that name back again.
Yes airliners are always lagging behind in cockpit features. The answer is simple, You cannot convert one, or part of a large fleet, it is simply too costly, not only the hardware/down time, but then suddenly cockpit crews, maintenance staff everywhere need to have had conversion training. The fleet is kinda split in two with different route structures it can/needs to fly. Spare parts will double (some at outstations).
Biz jets are a different story, many of them are a one-off, equipped to the likes of the new owner. Much quicker new electronics can be adapted to the top line of their model ranges.
GA flight schools (club operated) consist of a gaggle of used Cessna/Pipers that have been collected over the years. Standardisation... forget it.
Not sure if it was an urban legend, but NASA once was reported scouring the world to find suitable 286 motherboards to keep the Space shuttles flying....long after the first one flew.

[Uplinker]

Or simply look at your heading vs track and GS vs TAS. You can get a very close approximation. Just mentalmath it

Heaven forbid! You’ll be suggesting students are taught to navigate with a sectional chart and a watch next.

Am I the only one who used to get a real kick out of navigating with a whizz wheel, sectional and a watch ?

Yes, you probably are, you masochist ! :)

It is very nice to be able to simply glance at the wind arrow on your ND, rather than doing mental maths while wrestling and hand flying an airliner on a turbulent approach. "Ah, the wind has just changed direction.........."

[Double Back]

The W/V was extremely helpful during my airline Yrs on the B744. Especially when there was a shear to be expected, You knew it still was around the corner when you did not see the reported surface wind yet on the display. On the other hand, with crosswind during decrab, booting the rudder, the display went haywire.... Anyhow a manoeuvre that one needs to look outside, not inside.

[Zar_1]

Kalman filter... Learned that during my (50 Years ago, state paid :) ) ab initio airline pilot training, 2,5 Yr course, 250 hrs of which close to 100 hrs on twin engine jets... )...

Didn't know that the Kalman Filter was such an old tech, tbh. Just read right now that it was used in the Apollo AGC..

We've had a lot of innovations in drones nowadays, a lot of it from advanced Flight Controllers (FC's) like the PixHawk, which are super affordable and easy to procure. They pack a LOT of processing power (32-bit ARM CPU with like 2MB of Flash)

[Double Back]

The other name that played an other important role in the beginning of Inertial navigation (gyros and accelerometers mounted on "stable platforms") was Max Schuler's formula, first used in 1923, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Schuler
There were some pretty smart individuals that paved the way after dead reckoning and celestial navigation proved not exactly the way to go during crossing oceans with any accuracy with fast airplanes.
No matter how long I flew large transports, be it with INS/GPS, I still wondered about seeing a W/V of 277/67 change to 278/67 or 277/68. Realising "something" measured or calculated that change, impossible for the human body to detect.
Dive into history for those interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_navigation_system

[Zar_1]

IMU/INS is such a huge enhancement to aviation safety, in terms of Situational Awareness... without it and GPS, EGPWS would probably never even be possible.

The enhancement to the situational awareness is so damn significant, especially with the kind of accuracy that modern IMU systems provide nowadays, with Ring Laser Gyros.

In drones, we use MEMS gyros, not for positioning, but for Attitude Determination, which are super cheap (just google MPU6050 gyro). The reason for their low cost is mass production, since they're widely used in phones/some game controllers.

[rigpiggy]

The W/V was extremely helpful during my airline Yrs on the B744. Especially when there was a shear to be expected, You knew it still was around the corner when you did not see the reported surface wind yet on the display. On the other hand, with crosswind during decrab, booting the rudder, the display went haywire.... Anyhow a manoeuvre that one needs to look outside, not inside.
I used to be based in NL. YYT was as I liked to call it "SPORTING"

[Luc Lion]

Kalman filter... Learned that during my (50 Years ago, state paid :) ) ab initio airline pilot training, 2,5 Yr course, 250 hrs of which close to 100 hrs on twin engine jets... )... Had trouble to understand it completely, it was at the time no one owned a PC, programming was for aliens only.
The idea behind Kalman filter is very simple and easy to understand, at least if you limit it to a single variable.

- The first step is about computing a new value from the previous state of the system, using physics equations.
This step is equivalent to dead reckoning; the current position is equal to the position of the previous state, plus the speed vector of the previous state multiplied by the elapsed time.

- Then this value is fitted with a gaussian probability distribution, centered on the computed value. This distribution represents the probability that the system departed from a steady evolution.
The width or variance of the gaussian may be dependent on other variables of the state (eg: dead reckoning with a slow speed is more precise than with a high speed).

- Then the measured value of the same variable is also prepared by applying a gaussian distribution on it, to model the measurement errors or noise.
For dead reckoning a horizontal position, it means taking the current GPS position and applying an error distribution using, for instance, the current GPS Horizontal Figure of Merit (HFOM).

- Then the 2 distribution are combined (in this case, multiplied) and the maximum of the resulting curve is the most probable value for the variable and it is chosen as representing the variable value for the current state.
Multiplying the 2 distributions means computing a function that describes the probability that any given "actual" value of the variable could be represented by both the computed value (dead reckoning) and the measured value.
The maximum of that function is the most probable "actual" value for the current situation.

The calculation is relatively quick (hence, its implementation in the Apollo hardware) because the product of the Probability Density Functions (PDF) of 2 Gaussian variables is another PDF function, with the mean and variance equal to:
μ = (μ1 σ2² + μ2 σ1²) / (σ2² + σ1²)
σ² = σ1² σ2² / (σ2² + σ1²)
where μ is the mean value and σ² is the variance (or σ is the standard deviation).
So there is no need to make complex calculations on the plots of these functions.

It is to be noted that the theoretical ground for the Kalman filter reasoning is the Bayes theorem, published in 1763.
Kalman filter is a special and simple case of the more general Bayes filter and is an application of a branch of statistics named after Bayes; Bayesian statistics.
Another of the Bayesian statistics applications is computing the evolution of infected populations in the context of an infectious disease outbreak and its use for monitoring and predicting COVID evolution made it known to the general public.