View Full Version : Nellis - Draken Adversary Contract
DuckDodgers
8th Apr 2022, 06:56
Interesting turn of events. Appears it won't be competed for under CAF CAS either.
Adversary Air Contract For Nellis AFB Won't Be Renewed (https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/45128/drakens-adversary-air-support-contract-for-nellis-afb-wont-be-renewed?fbclid=IwAR0m6ildq0OqCbpFFELXkfKT__4Ex0tBCTtAk40tvUP 0XxzpLvhYdaqApRY)
GeeRam
8th Apr 2022, 07:22
Interesting.......in many ways!
Davef68
8th Apr 2022, 07:39
I wonder if there is any scope in passing those older F-22s to the Aggressor squadrons rather than retiring them?
Given the shoddy way Draken Europe treated their workforce in Newquay, presumably with the blessing of head office in the US, I have little sympathy for them losing a contract.
Jizkid
8th Apr 2022, 14:15
Lose one in Nellis, win one in UK
www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/new-red-air-training-service-for-raf-fighter-squadrons/
Well let's see if the management lie to their new customers less than they did with the last ones.........and advice to pilots flying for them is to check your Ts and Cs carefully for levels of redundancy pay when it happens.
DuckDodgers
8th Apr 2022, 15:42
Well let's see if the management lie to their new customers less than they did with the last ones.........and advice to pilots flying for them is to check your Ts and Cs carefully for levels of redundancy pay when it happens.
Someone has an issue with the U.K. legal entity which is, for all intents and purposes, CAvS rebranded with no leadership changes.
Someone has an issue with the U.K. legal entity which is, for all intents and purposes, CAvS rebranded with no leadership changes. Yes, me and the rest of the excellent workforce at Newquay who were bullied, lied to and left hanging with bare minimum redundancy pay after the management's inability to tell the truth to customers lost them the major contract.
Foghorn Leghorn
9th Apr 2022, 07:07
Yes, me and the rest of the excellent workforce at Newquay who were bullied, lied to and left hanging with bare minimum redundancy pay after the management's inability to tell the truth to customers lost them the major contract.
What lies did they tell? Did they provide redundancy pay in accordance with people’s contract?
What lies did they tell? Did they provide redundancy pay in accordance with people’s contract? Employee of Draken perhaps????
Foghorn Leghorn
9th Apr 2022, 09:33
Employee of Draken perhaps????
No no, I’m genuinely interested.
Instead of having a clear redundancy pay policy, they didn't have anything in people's contracts except mentioning that it would be handled in accordance with the employees handbook.
All fine except the Draken employees handbook never existed, -except on a sharepoint site that wasn't accessible to Newquay staff (and there was no redundancy policy in it anyway) - the only mention regarding redundancy pay being in an older FR Aviation employee handbook - that said that redundancy pay would normally be in excess of statutory minimums.
However, they denied that was binding and relied on the concept that having no policy meant that their actual policy was no more than statutory minimums.
That was how they treated very well qualified and motivated staff (all ex-mil) when they closed the Academy as quickly and cheaply as they could having encouraged people to move to the SW and relocate at great cost.
They denied that when Waddington closed they paid staff in excess of statutory redundancy - we didn't believe that and had it on good authority that it wasn't true. They stuck by their assertion and the only way to get them to prove it would have been to take them to court.
As for the lying - one of my colleagues said he could write a book on how not to deal with customers based on how he saw the management constantly promise the earth and consistently fail to deliver.
And somehow - not sure of the legality - they claimed we were key workers so we had to keep going through lockdown, even when the UK Mil training system had shut down. Oh, and we were told if we didn't stay flying, we'd all lose our jobs.
Foghorn Leghorn
9th Apr 2022, 14:30
Instead of having a clear redundancy pay policy, they didn't have anything in people's contracts except mentioning that it would be handled in accordance with the employees handbook.
All fine except the Draken employees handbook never existed, -except on a sharepoint site that wasn't accessible to Newquay staff (and there was no redundancy policy in it anyway) - the only mention regarding redundancy pay being in an older FR Aviation employee handbook - that said that redundancy pay would normally be in excess of statutory minimums.
However, they denied that was binding and relied on the concept that having no policy meant that their actual policy was no more than statutory minimums.
That was how they treated very well qualified and motivated staff (all ex-mil) when they closed the Academy as quickly and cheaply as they could having encouraged people to move to the SW and relocate at great cost.
They denied that when Waddington closed they paid staff in excess of statutory redundancy - we didn't believe that and had it on good authority that it wasn't true. They stuck by their assertion and the only way to get them to prove it would have been to take them to court.
As for the lying - one of my colleagues said he could write a book on how not to deal with customers based on how he saw the management constantly promise the earth and consistently fail to deliver.
And somehow - not sure of the legality - they claimed we were key workers so we had to keep going through lockdown, even when the UK Mil training system had shut down. Oh, and we were told if we didn't stay flying, we'd all lose our jobs.
Wow, interesting stuff. Thank you.
DuckDodgers
9th Apr 2022, 15:19
Instead of having a clear redundancy pay policy, they didn't have anything in people's contracts except mentioning that it would be handled in accordance with the employees handbook.
All fine except the Draken employees handbook never existed, -except on a sharepoint site that wasn't accessible to Newquay staff (and there was no redundancy policy in it anyway) - the only mention regarding redundancy pay being in an older FR Aviation employee handbook - that said that redundancy pay would normally be in excess of statutory minimums.
However, they denied that was binding and relied on the concept that having no policy meant that their actual policy was no more than statutory minimums.
That was how they treated very well qualified and motivated staff (all ex-mil) when they closed the Academy as quickly and cheaply as they could having encouraged people to move to the SW and relocate at great cost.
They denied that when Waddington closed they paid staff in excess of statutory redundancy - we didn't believe that and had it on good authority that it wasn't true. They stuck by their assertion and the only way to get them to prove it would have been to take them to court.
As for the lying - one of my colleagues said he could write a book on how not to deal with customers based on how he saw the management constantly promise the earth and consistently fail to deliver.
And somehow - not sure of the legality - they claimed we were key workers so we had to keep going through lockdown, even when the UK Mil training system had shut down. Oh, and we were told if we didn't stay flying, we'd all lose our jobs.
That is absolutely appalling. I’m surprised folk haven’t taken legal action. Seems like a fundamental failure regard the basics.
That is absolutely appalling. I’m surprised folk haven’t taken legal action. Seems like a fundamental failure regard the basics. The CEO got agitated when two of us mentioned that in interviews with him and was happy for legal challenges because they 'had expensive lawyers ready'.
Same CEO, same SLT - wouldn't trust them ever.
Foghorn Leghorn
9th Apr 2022, 22:10
The CEO got agitated when two of us mentioned that in interviews with him and was happy for legal challenges because they 'had expensive lawyers ready'.
Same CEO, same SLT - wouldn't trust them ever.
Why wasn’t legal action taken?
trim it out
9th Apr 2022, 23:19
Instead of having a clear redundancy pay policy, they didn't have anything in people's contracts except mentioning that it would be handled in accordance with the employees handbook.
All fine except the Draken employees handbook never existed, -except on a sharepoint site that wasn't accessible to Newquay staff (and there was no redundancy policy in it anyway) - the only mention regarding redundancy pay being in an older FR Aviation employee handbook - that said that redundancy pay would normally be in excess of statutory minimums.
However, they denied that was binding and relied on the concept that having no policy meant that their actual policy was no more than statutory minimums.
That was how they treated very well qualified and motivated staff (all ex-mil) when they closed the Academy as quickly and cheaply as they could having encouraged people to move to the SW and relocate at great cost.
They denied that when Waddington closed they paid staff in excess of statutory redundancy - we didn't believe that and had it on good authority that it wasn't true. They stuck by their assertion and the only way to get them to prove it would have been to take them to court.
As for the lying - one of my colleagues said he could write a book on how not to deal with customers based on how he saw the management constantly promise the earth and consistently fail to deliver.
And somehow - not sure of the legality - they claimed we were key workers so we had to keep going through lockdown, even when the UK Mil training system had shut down. Oh, and we were told if we didn't stay flying, we'd all lose our jobs.
As terrible as it sounds, you did read the contract before you signed it?
Were they relying on the old adage that ex mil are sitting on IPP golden eggs so aren't really too bothered about real world niff naff and triv paperwork as long as the pension pays the mortgage?
SpazSinbad
10th Apr 2022, 01:06
I wonder if there is any scope in passing those older F-22s to the Aggressor squadrons rather than retiring them?
AFAIK the USAF want to stop the expense of maintaining older F-22s so as to use funds for new aircraft and other good things.
Bksmithca
10th Apr 2022, 01:24
Why wasn’t legal action taken?
Foghorn Leghorn the only ones who win and make any money are the lawyers
Foghorn Leghorn
10th Apr 2022, 07:12
Foghorn Leghorn the only ones who win and make any money are the lawyers
I know that all too well! However, if it’s as easy to show the lying and cheating as crab has spoken about then it would be a straight forward legal claim.
A few of us went through the pantomime that was the appeal process and a some went further with grievances - the problem is that such processes are internal and adjudicated by employees of the organisation who come under the same SLT.
No surprise then to find that every grievance and appeal found in favour of the company.
Employment tribunals are not expensive but you need strong proof.
DuckDodgers
10th Apr 2022, 08:40
Noticed this earlier, unsurprising then that they don’t state they’ve lost the Curacao 🇨🇼 contract.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1170x1898/e4de00b5_dc63_43f6_a3d8_99c5e29cd73b_bb9d9cac76a71bedd80a5ab 201bbb846bd87f7d2.jpeg
And I'm sure they have glossed over the manpower shortages as well.
The only reason that contract kept going over the last 4 years was using Newquay-based personnel on detachment there - rob Peter to pay Paul.
For those that don't know, statutory redundancy pay is capped at £571 per week (just changed from £544) and you are entitled to between 1/2 and 1.5 weeks pay for every year served with the company with a maximum of 20 years service and a top cap of around £17,000.
That sounds OK if you are an unskilled worker but for very well trained aircrew and engineers it is an insult. My 7 years with the company yielded just £5712. Uncapped I would have been looking at 3 times that.
Small potatoes in the big picture but some guys had been working for them for a long time and lost £20K compared to what they could have had.
Perhaps as a bunch of ex-mil guys we were a little naive in expecting the company to do the right thing rather than the cheap thing - especially when some of the SLT were also ex-mil - lesson learned.
Baldeep Inminj
10th Apr 2022, 11:51
The SLT at Draken unfortunately includes the reptiles who managed FBH and Cobham. Arrogant lying bullies, every last one of them and God only knows what lies they have told to win the new UK contract. People should avoid Draken like the plague.
When there is an issue, they will use deflection, diversion and denial. If that does not work then they will use outright threats and intimidation.
DuckDodgers
10th Apr 2022, 13:39
The SLT at Draken unfortunately includes the reptiles who managed FBH and Cobham. Arrogant lying bullies, every last one of them and God only knows what lies they have told to win the new UK contract. People should avoid Draken like the plague.
When there is an issue, they will use deflection, diversion and denial. If that does not work then they will use outright threats and intimidation.
One has to wonder then why changes have not been made to the SLT by their new owners. It’s very unusual that the status quo remains.
One has to wonder then why changes have not been made to the SLT by their new owners. It’s very unusual that the status quo remains. One can only hope that will happen soon - a bit of karma wouldn't go amiss.
2 days after announcing our redundancies, the CEO gave an all-hands video briefing to the rest of the company telling them all how well things were going and how bright the future was.
The same man who said they couldn't pay enhanced redundancy pay as there was no money left for it!!!
GeeRam
10th Apr 2022, 14:43
A few of us went through the pantomime that was the appeal process and a some went further with grievances - the problem is that such processes are internal and adjudicated by employees of the organisation who come under the same SLT.
No surprise then to find that every grievance and appeal found in favour of the company.
Welcome to the new millenium corporate world....and its generally not a very nice place to be.
Foghorn Leghorn
10th Apr 2022, 16:42
The SLT at Draken unfortunately includes the reptiles who managed FBH and Cobham. Arrogant lying bullies, every last one of them and God only knows what lies they have told to win the new UK contract. People should avoid Draken like the plague.
When there is an issue, they will use deflection, diversion and denial. If that does not work then they will use outright threats and intimidation.
I wouldn’t want to have to go through losing my job like you’ve done as it must be a worrying place to be. You have my sympathies.
I would however say that I don’t think I’ve ever heard of any company paying more than what was in the T&Cs of the contract. I guess if these lies they told were demonstrable then you’d have a very good legal case?
They just brought my retirement closer than anticipated but the younger guys were much harder hit.
Redundancy pay wasn't in any of the Ts and Cs and they didn't have a published policy either - they hid behind that.
DuckDodgers
10th Apr 2022, 17:12
They just brought my retirement closer than anticipated but the younger guys were much harder hit.
Redundancy pay wasn't in any of the Ts and Cs and they didn't have a published policy either - they hid behind that.
Must have a quality HR department then 🤦♂️ Sounds like leadership failure at VP level and above to me regardless of department.
When they sent two HR ladies down to Newquay during the consultation phase (leading to the actual redundancy notices) they locked themselves in an office, talked to nobody and were heard giggling and laughing down the corridor - sums their HR up frankly.
To be fair, I had conversations with one or two of them who were good but the leadership in that dept was atrocious.
Baldeep Inminj
10th Apr 2022, 18:54
When they sent two HR ladies down to Newquay during the consultation phase (leading to the actual redundancy notices) they locked themselves in an office, talked to nobody and were heard giggling and laughing down the corridor - sums their HR up frankly.
I believe that. The management at Valley were a masterclass in arrogance and bullying of staff. Absolute dregs of humanity.
I see that Draken told too many lies to their customers at Newquay and the academy went under. They have also lost the SAR contract for Curaçao. Surely enough alarm bells have rung to let Draken know that they have toxic people in their ranks? The ex-Cobham people will drag the company down again and again - they simply don’t know the meaning of ‘integrity’.
Foghorn Leghorn
10th Apr 2022, 19:44
I believe that. The management at Valley were a masterclass in arrogance and bullying of staff. Absolute dregs of humanity.
I see that Draken told too many lies to their customers at Newquay and the academy went under. They have also lost the SAR contract for Curaçao. Surely enough alarm bells have rung to let Draken know that they have toxic people in their ranks? The ex-Cobham people will drag the company down again and again - they simply don’t know the meaning of ‘integrity’.
Wow, that’s quite a savage attack, Baldeep! Was it just that the contract wasn’t renewed due to a lack of business? As I say, I’m sorry you’re in the position you and your colleagues are.
NIREP reader
11th Apr 2022, 05:53
We’re going through the same thing at another site. Shame I can’t say more at this time:=
Safety - Provide a safe workplace for our people, ensure the safety of the products and services we provide and take care of the environment we live in.
Performance - Consistently deliver and seek to exceed expectations while improving what we do and how we do it.
Innovation - Create an environment to encourage new ideas, regardless of where they come from and have the courage to try, fail, learn and then succeed.
Relationships - Develop trusted interpersonal and customer relationships by listening, appreciating diversity, striving to understand, being inclusive and delivering on our commitments.
Integrity - Act ethically in all that we do, not only in compliance with the laws and regulations that govern us, but also in the spirit of ethical behaviour and doing what is right.
Trust - Be open, transparent, we say what we’ll do and do what we say.
This was the Cobham 'ethos' - the last 3 elements were expected of staff but never demonstrated by management.
Draken had different words but same 'ethos'.
Underfoot
12th Apr 2022, 17:17
I believe that. The management at Valley were a masterclass in arrogance and bullying of staff. Absolute dregs of humanity.
I see that Draken told too many lies to their customers at Newquay and the academy went under. They have also lost the SAR contract for Curaçao. Surely enough alarm bells have rung to let Draken know that they have toxic people in their ranks? The ex-Cobham people will drag the company down again and again - they simply don’t know the meaning of ‘integrity’.
Just to add some balance to what is clearly an emotive subject for some.
My experience with Draken was quite different. A very good salary package, great pension and decent management. It's naive to think that a revenue based organisation was going to be anything other than brutal to ensure survival in these difficult times. It is happening everywhere at the moment.
Newquay went under during a period where COVID restrictions prevented the centre from operating at any level of profit. The margin was already small and sadly, COVID killed it off.
Waddington was driven by the OSD for E-3D being brought forward by the MoD. That action threw both 8 Sqn and Draken under a bus. Many service careers were (and still are) fouled as a result.
Newquay went under during a period where COVID restrictions prevented the centre from operating at any level of profit. The margin was already small and sadly, COVID killed it off. Covid killed it off only because no-one from Draken was out there touting for contracts while everyone else in the industry got on with it.
The Academy was scuppered by lack of investment in modern aircraft and a reliance on a big contract that dropped into their laps.
At every stage they promised far more to the customers than they could ever produce simply because the aircraft were old and tired - relics from DHFS.
The one modern aircraft was left in the hangar rotting for many, many months while they tried to decide whether to sell it or not - when they finally got it up and running, they closed the academy.
Still no excuse to treat the workforce so shabbily when they had worked so hard to make it a success.
I presume someone from Draken got you to sign up to PPrune and make your first post here.
Underfoot
13th Apr 2022, 07:01
Covid killed it off only because no-one from Draken was out there touting for contracts while everyone else in the industry got on with it.
The Academy was scuppered by lack of investment in modern aircraft and a reliance on a big contract that dropped into their laps.
At every stage they promised far more to the customers than they could ever produce simply because the aircraft were old and tired - relics from DHFS.
The one modern aircraft was left in the hangar rotting for many, many months while they tried to decide whether to sell it or not - when they finally got it up and running, they closed the academy.
Still no excuse to treat the workforce so shabbily when they had worked so hard to make it a success.
I presume someone from Draken got you to sign up to PPrune and make your first post here.
Crab,
nobody made me sign up to comment on your post. I joined a long time ago but, have never felt the need to post.
I added my post to add some balance to the thread; that's not to say that I do not sympathise with what happened at Newquay. The writing was on the wall for a long, long time. I would suggest that there were, and continue to be, experiences at Bournemouth and TIA for most people that heavily contrast with those at Newquay.
I hope that is true Underfoot but I would advise them to check Ts and Cs regarding redundancy anyway, just so they know for sure.
I have PM'd you but apparently your inbox is too full to receive it.
Underfoot
14th Apr 2022, 15:08
Emptied! Do fee free to send a PM.