Storm Damage - RAF Brize Norton

[RAFEngO74to09]

(3) George Allison on Twitter: "🚨 Exclusive video footage shows large chunks of the roof being blown off of a new £70 million hangar at RAF Brize Norton. #StormEunice https://t.co/w5oT8IHOm2" / Twitter

[biscuit74]

Ouch. So, either still under construction or inadequate tiedown boltings, either in size or number.

I feel sorry for anyone downwind of that lot, try to stay well away; flying sheets are especially deadly things!

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Could I make a request, please, EngO? Would you consider adding a quick note underneath what I presume is a Tw@tter quote, for those of us who don't use soshul meejah, so that we can get the gist of what you're reporting? Otherwise we just see a completely blank message.

[trim it out]

Could I make a request, please, EngO? Would you consider adding a quick note underneath what I presume is a Tw@tter quote, for those of us who don't use soshul meejah, so that we can get the gist of what you're reporting? Otherwise we just see a completely blank message.
It's embedded in the post so should show regardless (I don't use Twitter). Maybe a browser issue (works fine on Chrome both laptop and mobile for me).

[GeeRam]

Ouch. So, either still under construction or inadequate tiedown boltings, either in size or number.

I feel sorry for anyone downwind of that lot, try to stay well away; flying sheets are especially deadly things!

To be fair, some of the gust speeds being quoted around the SW and SE today, are borderline close to the 1 in a 100 year max design wind speed for new building design in the UK, although equally you'd still not expect to see roof sheeting flying off like this...........although that roof shape could be creating some interesting local effects up there!!

[Always a Sapper]

Wouldn't be surprised is some of the newish roofs at Lyneham took off as well.

[sangiovese.]

A400 question….do they have to be turned out of the wind like the herc used to in the Falklands?

[GeeRam]

Wouldn't be surprised is some of the newish roofs at Lyneham took off as well.

The DH Venom that was mounted up on a curved pole outside the airfield fence of Grove airfield made a bid at a take-off again, and is now a crumpled wreck on the ground.....

[oldmansquipper]

I’m sure the design and construction contract represented excellent value for money…..

Much like the O2 I guess…🤭

[NutLoose]

Judging by the amount of FOD shown drifting across the airfield, they are going to need a sh*t load of 12 inch rulers to put in all the FOD found photos for February. :E

[biscuit74]

To be fair, some of the gust speeds being quoted around the SW and SE today, are borderline close to the 1 in a 100 year max design wind speed for new building design in the UK, although equally you'd still not expect to see roof sheeting flying off like this...........although that roof shape could be creating some interesting local effects up there!!

Yes, that is likely to be near the expected 100year storm limit speed - up North I think some of those limits have been increased somewhat. In some parts they even install ropes and wires to hold roofs down!
My wife also thought that that roof shape looked quite wing like; probably some good suction effects there.

[NutLoose]

The DH Venom that was mounted up on a curved pole outside the airfield fence of Grove airfield made a bid at a take-off again, and is now a crumpled wreck on the ground.....
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1169x540/274357466_662248545196115_2585379980214525283_n_28c05c5adaae d9a2d0a28fdb3b5aa6819367e50a.jpg

:( from

https://www.key.aero/forum/historic-aviation/dh-venom-down-grove-oxon-thanks-eunice

[oldmansquipper]

Nice explanation of the challenges faced by pilots landing at Heathrow in such conditions on Sky right now.

Dumbed down by the meejah of course, an ex CAA Ops bloke Cpt Mike Vivian replies to the meejah presenters question “Oohhh, how scary is it landing those big planes in those treacherous and dangerous winds….”

to summarise ….it’s what pilots are trained for….

(and inferring, as we all know, it’s actually great fun)…

[Cat Techie]

Any aircraft would have been stuck nose into wind today if possible. My airline didn't bother flying into southern England today. A wise decision.

[Cat Techie]

O2 arena design life. 25 years. 90% there.

[Cat Techie]

Seeing some of the pilots write about their experience in such conditions in forums I see, they are not happy bunnies. Passengers do no like being bumped about. They don't go flying from A to B for that. It is not safe flying.

[oldmansquipper]

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1169x540/274357466_662248545196115_2585379980214525283_n_28c05c5adaae d9a2d0a28fdb3b5aa6819367e50a.jpg

:( from

https://www.key.aero/forum/historic-aviation/dh-venom-down-grove-oxon-thanks-eunice


“Bit of speed tape, and a quick buff up and it’ll do a trip…just as well as Boris wants it to go to Estonia tomorrow”

[Richard Dangle]

To be fair, some of the gust speeds being quoted around the SW and SE today, are borderline close to the 1 in a 100 year max design wind speed for new building design in the UK,

A concept that could shortly be a tad redundant. Lots of info online (from highly reputable sources) for those who wish to dig it up on "Extreme Event Attribution":

In the early 2000s, a new field of climate-science research emerged that began to explore the human fingerprint on extreme weather, such as floods, heatwaves, droughts and storms.

I've no wish to be either controversial or apocalyptic; I'm merely pointing out that today's extremes could soon becomes tomorrow's "normals". Being an old timer, I have the evidence of my own eyes to back up some of the stuff I look up and read. Seems to me our weather patterns are changing and the available literature is ever-more convincing.

I'm neither qualified nor sufficiently peremptory to pontificate from a climate-change pulpit, but one likes to be a little open-minded when the future of the planet is at stake. Or, if not quite that, then at least the future of my roof :)

[Timelord]

Does that hangar belong to the govt or is it owned by the training / support PFI (or is it a PPP!)?

[Herod]

Several comments about the shape of the roof, and I agree with them. Perhaps architects should study Bernoulli.

[SLXOwft]

Could I make a request, please, EngO? Would you consider adding a quick note underneath what I presume is a Tw@tter quote, for those of us who don't use soshul meejah, so that we can get the gist of what you're reporting? Otherwise we just see a completely blank message.

I started a thread on this issue in the PPRuNe Problems or Queries forum https://www.pprune.org/pprune-problems-queries/644312-posted-links-twitter-not-visible-firefox.html#post1116068 (https://www.pprune.org/pprune-problems-queries/644312-posted-links-twitter-not-visible-firefox.html#post11160688)8 the issue seems to be linked to cookie/tracker settings. If you right click and select View Page Source you can then search for the relevant post and find the twitter url.

I expect the landings of ZEUS51 and the other BUFF made interesting viewing.:}

Naturally my thoughts are with those being thrown about by the sea not necessarily dangerous but definitely unpleasant.

The EGLL footage reminds me of flying into ENTO as SLF courtesy of Michael O’Leary, my hands being crushed by my wife on one side and a young Norwegian women on the other, with the aircraft pointing an average 45°+ away from the centreline with fairly violent motion around all three axes, quick turn to align and smooth landing - what's was all the fuss - a professional doing his job.

[Mactlsm1]

And meanwhile I assume Base Hangar sails serenly on....... (with an intact roof!!)

[Treble one]

Reports of a 122 mph gust on the IOW. A new record for England.

[NutLoose]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/jad_20170727_327_106_3f9af3f189c7c0c9a5c1d5b4dbc4199698dc0bc 7.jpg

[Dunhovrin]

Nice explanation of the challenges faced by pilots landing at Heathrow…

(and inferring, as we all know, it’s actually great fun)…

Yeah, no pissing about with a flare…

[Polly BG 1]

It's got a gappy end to allow for the doors to be opened, strange design.

[Coltishall. loved it]

Talking of Base Hangar. I was there for the 87 storm and remember a 12 foot scaffold plank got blown off the roof and went "end on" through the soft top roof of a TR7 and destroyed the drivers seat. The Cpl had only parked it there 5 mins before.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

SLXOwft, many thanks - wasn't aware it was a problem, didn't know of your thread and don't use Firefox... but it obvs applies to other browsers too (Brave, in this instance). Followed yr advice, found 5287 lines of code, did a Ctrl-F for the website name and found the linky on about the 5th or 6th out of 14 mentions. Tbh, life's just too short - I'll just ignore these posts in the future. Many thanks for taking the time to explain.

[langleybaston]

Wind extremes. affecting UK.

I started my Met. career in 1955. Round about 20 years later I began to suspect the N hemisphere Highs were getting higher, and Atlantic Lows getting deeper [if true, more spaghetti, so more wind].
In those days Daily Weather Reports [DWRs] were published for us by in-house HMSO, and were available for yonks backwards. Thus a simple project, take a few 5 deg Lat by 5 Deg long Atlantic boxes, and note the lowest pressure in each box each day [Highs are less exciting so I did no research on them]. Not rocket science, and I oversimplify somewhat]

There was a definite trend over 20 years or so ....... once upon a time a depression of lower then 960mb excited comment, but there appeared to be more and more in the 950s as time went on.
I never finished the project because promotions and postings led me upwards and sideways away from the source of DWRs and I think they ceased to be printed.

So, no conclusions, just suspicions. If the Highs merely maintained their old high values, more isobars, more wind would result.

I bet current aviators glancing at an Atlantic chart would not blink at a 950 mb low: when I were a lad they seemed remarkable!

In passing, Eunice's Low was not very low at all, just lots of isobars.

[NutLoose]

SLXOwft, many thanks - wasn't aware it was a problem, didn't know of your thread and don't use Firefox... but it obvs applies to other browsers too (Brave, in this instance). Followed yr advice, found 5287 lines of code, did a Ctrl-F for the website name and found the linky on about the 5th or 6th out of 14 mentions. Tbh, life's just too short - I'll just ignore these posts in the future. Many thanks for taking the time to explain.

just quote the thread as in a reply, it shows the link, then copy and paste… simple

[SLXOwft]

Nutty - the engineer's approach is, as usual, practical and effective.:ok:

[Lima Juliet]

Basic aerodynamics ‘innit…

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/828x930/1140bfb6_f642_4262_a207_a0fe30b64c0f_ef3134f57587db3da35810b 089ef286b120c8e19.jpeg
Maybe all officers need to be Pilots, or at least Aircrew again? :}

[NutLoose]

Thud and blunder link here

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/wind-blows-roof-off-of-new-hangar-at-raf-brize-norton/

[dixi188]

At least the hangar is at the eastern end of Brize so the debris blows away from the aircraft.

[HUTCHP]

Is that really correct... £70 million for an aeroplane shed ??

[NutLoose]

Three sheds in one, plus offices and a damned great big concrete apron, plus probably all the junk inside for the aircraft.

[GeeRam]

Three sheds in one, plus offices and a damned great big concrete apron, plus probably all the junk inside for the aircraft.

Indeed.....in fact £70m sounds a bit cheap, as the then new BA Maintenance hangar built at Cardiff cost £70m, and that was 30 years ago!!

[Milarity]

When the roof peeled off Alpha Hangar at Waddington a couple of decades ago, it was blamed on the roof being shaped like the upper surface of an aerofoil. Who says doing 'Lessons Learned' events are a waste if time?

[ShyTorque]

GeeRam,

Maybe they saved money on something like ……the roof?

[toolboxstickers]

For those having problems with Twitter, video is now on Youtube courtesy of UK Defence Journal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrWerbaD2Og

[unmanned_droid]

Basic aerodynamics ‘innit…

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/828x930/1140bfb6_f642_4262_a207_a0fe30b64c0f_ef3134f57587db3da35810b 089ef286b120c8e19.jpeg
Maybe all officers need to be Pilots, or at least Aircrew again? :}

What was the wind direction in relation to the hangar?

[NutLoose]

Actually probably the opposite direction from that Airflow drawing judging by the film and the aircraft are probably into wind, or damned near it.

[Atlantic Explorer]

What was the wind direction in relation to the hangar?

The wind was blowing in the opposite direction from that depicted in the image.

[speedrestriction]

Arriving back into London during Feb two years ago between Cherbourg and the Isle of Wight. Wind vector in the top left corner. I have only seen jetstreams top 200kts around the U.K. twice, both of which have been this decade.


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x808/2b740499_0ff4_4f73_bf5c_92993c2cbc5f_f0915d02885090fd2c5d1d5 d58b57df72aad8404.jpeg

[unmanned_droid]

Actually probably the opposite direction from that Airflow drawing judging by the film and the aircraft are probably into wind, or damned near it.

and Atlantic Explorer,

That was my thought also. I originally posted that it was opposite the indicated direction, but I did wonder after watching the video if it was in fact diagonally across the building, since I didn't know the heading of the building and the wind direction at that time.

[GeeRam]

and Atlantic Explorer,

That was my thought also. I originally posted that it was opposite the indicated direction, but I did wonder after watching the video if it was in fact diagonally across the building, since I didn't know the heading of the building and the wind direction at that time.

Very crudely, I think it was about this....

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x488/bz_wind_9765e849626129b592944aa28cbb46d01f0b4e36.jpg

[unmanned_droid]

Thank you, appreciate that. So, what has given way? the solar panels in the dip? (I presume they're solar).

[Runaway Gun]

No, I think they are Beadwindows.

[NutLoose]

There does appear to be a drain gulley at the intersection, perhaps the wind got under the edge

[207592]

Could it not also be sheeting that has sheered, leaving the bolts insitu?

[unmanned_droid]

Could it not also be sheeting that has sheered, leaving the bolts insitu?

Yes, I think so.

[GeeRam]

Could it not also be sheeting that has sheered, leaving the bolts insitu?

Generally most roof sheeting systems are fixed down to primary/secondary steel elements using little more than TEK screws (not bolts) so they would have been ripped out by the sheeting as it got 'sucked off' the roof by the local effects as the wind ripped up over the edge, which is where it looks like from the video.

[Melchett01]

A concept that could shortly be a tad redundant. Lots of info online (from highly reputable sources) for those who wish to dig it up on "Extreme Event Attribution":



I've no wish to be either controversial or apocalyptic; I'm merely pointing out that today's extremes could soon becomes tomorrow's "normals". Being an old timer, I have the evidence of my own eyes to back up some of the stuff I look up and read. Seems to me our weather patterns are changing and the available literature is ever-more convincing.

I'm neither qualified nor sufficiently peremptory to pontificate from a climate-change pulpit, but one likes to be a little open-minded when the future of the planet is at stake. Or, if not quite that, then at least the future of my roof :)

From a scientific perspective - and I’m now really scraping the barrel in terms of remembering my Met degree - for all the complications inherent in the atmospheric system, it’s about energy. Energy balances, energy flows and the resulting weather - and over the longer term, climate.

What we see in day to day weather is effectively a symptom of the amount of energy in the system and the way it is acting and moving around. And climate change, whether warming or cooling, will impact on those energy balances. In the case of warming, it means more energy staying in the system for longer. And that means potentially greater numbers of high energy events - storms in simple terms - depending on how that energy bounces around.

And I’ll stop now before Langley comes along and tells me off - much like my tutors used to do every time I handed an atmospheric dynamics tutorial in!

[averow]

I feel like the old gal just wanted one last flight, consequences be damned.

[Sue Vêtements]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x488/bz_wind_9765e849626129b592944aa28cbb46d01f0b4e36.jpg

That looks like a gigantic garden maze - like something potential recruits would have to negotiate successfully

[langleybaston]

From a scientific perspective - and I’m now really scraping the barrel in terms of remembering my Met degree - for all the complications inherent in the atmospheric system, it’s about energy. Energy balances, energy flows and the resulting weather - and over the longer term, climate.

What we see in day to day weather is effectively a symptom of the amount of energy in the system and the way it is acting and moving around. And climate change, whether warming or cooling, will impact on those energy balances. In the case of warming, it means more energy staying in the system for longer. And that means potentially greater numbers of high energy events - storms in simple terms - depending on how that energy bounces around.

And I’ll stop now before Langley comes along and tells me off - much like my tutors used to do every time I handed an atmospheric dynamics tutorial in!

Not at all.

Similarly a long time since my studies and they were focussed on time scales dictated by the demands of staish, SASO and aircraft endurance. Regarding energy the doom-loop either happening now or in store is about the total energy input [the sun], energy stored [oceans, and latent heat exchanges] versus energy reflected, expended [weather events on all scales] or permanently locked [Amazon forest].
The bad bit is the loss of polar ice, which [although the angles are unfavourable] bounces back a lot of the input to space [as do clouds of course]. We have lost a lot of white stuff in the last 50 years which not only heats the oceans but diminishes the reflection of incoming.radiation. A by-product of ocean heating is hurricane frequency: the pre-condition is an ocean temperature of about 28c. That is now comfortably exceeded in hurricane latitudes [and the S. hemisphere equivalents]. We used to say of hurricanes "June soon, July try, August must, September remember, October all ober". The season is certainly longer and stronger.

The concept of building/ preparing for" once in a hundred year" events could do with revision.

It's engineers we need, not scientists or weatherfolk.

[Mr Mac]

I hesitate to post on here as I am not airforce,but for my sins come from a construction facade specialist. I would be looking at the fixings used and the quality of work undertaken. TEK screws are not great in some applications, and have become widely used over the years since their introduction in the mid 80,s. I do not know the specifications for that building but to me something does not look right as their are many large clad sheds in the UK and I have not yet seen a list of jobs coming in for me in the morning.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[NutLoose]

It strikes me as design over substance, when you look at the older types of hangars the RAF had, the doors were double skinned and filled with sand to minimise blast damage, and they were built like bricksh*thouses, these days anything other than fighters appear to not get any protection or strength built in to their hangars.

[llamaman]

Wind won, roof lost. Simple.

[langleybaston]

Unusually, it won't buff out. I can't see chiefy tape sorting it, either.

[WB627]

Like Mr Mac, not only do I rarely stick my head above the parapet on this forum, but i also come from a construction background.......

Back in the good old days, government building works including military facilities came under the auspices of the PSA, Property Services Agency. Whilst they were speaking as a contractor, without doubt a pain in the ar*e to work for, they did know what they were doing. They had their own architects and engineers both structural and MEP (mechanical, electrical & plumbing), everything was designed and built to a standard that had been formulated by many years of experience. Then they got sold to Carillion (remember them? Formally known as Tarmac) and under the guise of saving money, they had to bid for government work in competition with the private sector. This meant that building works got designed and built to a price, not a standard. It also meant that the knowledge built up over many years of how to do things was no longer available and all over the government estate, architects and engineers were reinventing the wheel and designing as cheap as there PI could stand.

Same happened in the NHS who also had their own architects and engineers who also knew what they were doing. And the Post Office who also did there own MEP installation works inhouse with their own directly directly employed workforce.

I believe McDonald's still has it's own inhouse design team.

[teej013]

Looking at the Hangar from the inside on the MoD YT page, it appears to me to be fairly flimsy, compared to the Olde Worlde Hangars that I grew up with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq8quzp9ByM

Curious as to how the rest of the New Builds around the country compare...

[On Glide]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/820x939/22523473_702a_4425_8cf0_ffc96b22b8d2_08eb3e19a3c9baa379e9f0d 6e477464ff372d179.jpeg

[NutLoose]

Looks better than I expected, thanks for the picture.

[wiggy]

No, I think they are Beadwindows.

Is it to late to say….Wooosh..:ok::oh: