UK ATPL Situation

[k.swiss]

Hi, is anyone actually considering the ATPL exams as of now (2021) with COVID and Brexit affecting pilot jobs. In addition the new exam format with horrible type-in style questions requiring an exact answer.

Please share your thoughts as there might be others in the same boat. Perhaps I am seeing only the negative.

[rudestuff]

Do you want to be a professional pilot? If so you need to do those exams. What else is there to consider?

[rudestuff]

Ok, I suppose you could wait another 20 years and see if they bring back multiple choice..

[PDMG]

Kswiss im in the same boat. Started EASA route years ago. Stopped for a few reasons, mainly work and now picking up again. I’m at the which syllabus stage. I have an EASA issued licence from many years prior to brexit dates and a continued medical except latest one is issued under UK.

My gut feeling is I’d like to do EASA as I can see UK CAA recognising it more than EASA recognising CAA as the politicians will never play nicely in the sandbox. However I see a couple of sticking points…

1. depending on who you speak to you get a different answer regarding whether your licence is recognised by EASA or not. I believe my licence automatically changed over to a UK one, but I’ve had this confirmed by one training organisation and told another believes the opposite is the case ass long as I have a EASA medical. The CAA’s website doesn’t really help as it jumps between EASA and CAA. One website did suggest that if you wish to work in the UK it might soon be that UK won’t recognise EASA licences.

2. Written Exams are easy to organise either way so not too worried here

3. Flight test - now for the fixed wing world. Things may be different but for my Rotary wish wonder if getting an EASA checkride is going to prove difficult if based in the UK and if indeed student visas may be needed in the future.

for me it is really simple - I want an internationally recognised licence. However should I get to the ATP stage of hours then I can self certify In some regions and just sit the exams rather than pay money for “training” over and over. So what’s your thoughts thus far?

** I will say one training organisation did have a suggested licensing contact to check what they told me, so I will be doing that this week hopefully.

[Alex Whittingham]

I have an EASA issued licence from many years prior to brexit dates and a continued medical except latest one is issued under UK. Which State has your paperwork? In other words, if you were to add a rating, to whom would you send it?

[PDMG]

in my case fir my EASA licence its CAA

[Alex Whittingham]

In that case your old CAA-issued EASA licence has become a UK licence as you suspected. it is no longer valid for EASA registered aircraft. There is a transition period to Dec 2022 where the CAA will continue to accept EASA certificates and ratings, with some caveats so, if you did an EASA rating with an EASA ATO that had its approvals in place on exit day (not one of the UK ATOs that gained EASA accreditation the day after) then the CAA should accept it and put it on your UK licence. Similarly the CAA will obv accept a rating from a UK ATO.

[PDMG]

Alex Whittingham thanks for confirming what I suspected. So in my case a sharp EASA Written with a flight test by UK ATO that was (and still is) EASA approved prior to brexit date would be best route providing I complete both by dec2022. Possibly tight but we will see. I will just have to make sure my medical next year is also recognised although I’m sure my ME has already got this covered by nature of the fact. He was processing most of the airlines medical for many years. Thanks Alex

[Alex Whittingham]

Very few UK ATOs gained EASA approval before exit day, I'm afraid. At the moment the licence conversion UK to EASA involves pretty much the whole licensing process except the hours. ie pass all the ATPL theory, pass CPL/IR. You may be exempt approved training - this depends on the licence you hold and the one you are going for, and the attitude of the issuing state and supervising ATO - but I think you will still be expected to do 'training as required' before the flight tests. The easiest transition is if you have passed ATPL theory, held an EASA IR before exit day, and can find a compliant Authority in which case you may/should get credit for ATPL theory, get an EASA medical and take an EASA ATPL skills test. You have to have the hours for an ATPL to do this, if not it's a CPL by a longer route. The date of Dec 2022 only affects CAA recognition.

[PDMG]

Alex Whittingham ohh so likely hood of me having the hours for the ATP issue is very low as fi would need 350 hours ME, which in the helicopter world would be virtually impossible in that time. In all honesty as for me this is only a want to achieve the next training level and eventually complement my FAA CFI, as opposed to a career choice, whilst it would be nice to do a bit from time to time for a career it wouldn't pay the mortgages, or afford me my own machine. It makes sense to do the ATPL-H VFR as I understand there is no time limit on adding the IR later should I wish, hence why I didn't just think of CPL route as I would have to re-do all the exams again I believe?

So perhaps I am better with the UK CP and then if necessary sit all teh EASA exams later should i need to.. I'm more likely to fly non-easa aircraft, either G, N r C reg in any case ?

THE ICAO was supposed to make everything comparable to each other and then politicians happened I guess!

[k.swiss]

Thanks guys. A bit of background for those holding ATPL and fixed wing hours in other regions ie: Middle East/China and looking to return to UK there is a choice of converting the ATPL to:

UK CAA
EASA
ICAO

All of which would require sitting the 14 exams again presumably.

[PDMG]

Yes but from what I understand if you already have an ATPL, certainly for the UK, you are exempt from the forced classroom sessions in most cases. which gives you question bank costs for revision I guess and a quicker path from what I have gleaned.

[rudestuff]

k.swiss

Not exactly. CAA and EASA require 14 exams unless you have held a valid EASA IR in the last 7 years. ICAO will require anything from 1 to 14 depending on the authority.

[paco]

Or, in the case of a helicopter, a valid type rating.

[Alex Whittingham]

Is that still true, Paco? I was looking for the reg the other day and couldn't find it

[selfin]

FCL.025(c)(2)(ii)

[Contact Approach]

I fortunately obtained a U.K./EASA ATPL before Brexit however given the state of the industry and the seemingly lack of assistance / cooperation from the regulatory bodies, I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a lack of suitably licensed / current pilots in the not too distant future. There’s not a chance in hell I’d resit those 14 exams to take a job far away from home on some unsustainable contract with the fear of unpaid leave or worse hanging over my mortgage payments every month, never mind having to also pay for it! Ludicrous!

[PDMG]

That was a message that I got from my friendly ATO that they thought that at some point there will need to be bilateral recognition. The CAA seem to see this but EASA may be having its nuts clenched slightly by Euro politics perhaps?

[RedDragonFlyer]

The decision is purely political, but more on the UK side. The UK can not stay in EASA as EASA is subject to ECJ jurisdiction which the current Conservative government said they would never accept.
It's more difficult on the other side as any deal has to be agreed between all 27 member states (national sovereignty and all that) and the EU Parliament and there is no way all of them are going to agree that the ECJ shouldn't have jurisdiction over EASA.

The only thing the UK and British CAA can do is to unilaterally accept EASA licences permanently, but I think there is too much nationalist pride involved. So we get the current fudge that someone who finished all exams in December 2020 gets them recognised, but someone who did it with the same questions and systems in January 2021 does not (though they only need to resit those sat post December 2020).

For the future, there are a few possibilities. The UK unilaterally recognising EASA qualifications and licences is possible, but not likely. EASA recognising UK ones on the same basis is incredibly unlikely. A future government taking us back into EASA is possible, but certainly not in the short-term. Students being shafted is basically a certainty.

[interested123]

I am currently hour building via the modular route. My initial plan was to start ATPL theory when I reach 50hour PIC (approximately 6-7 months weather permitting), which should give me enough time to complete my exams, gain the hours and not have to stop working.

I will shortly reach the point where I need to decide whether CAA or EASA exams are the way to go. At present I believe that EASA licences can be accepted by the CAA but not vice versa and therefore EASA would be the obvious choice. However, my concern is that if the rules change later down the line I would be stuck with an EASA licence and unable to work in the U.K. As I only have U.K. citizenship this would make working in the EU problematic.

I have considered delaying but do not want to do this for more than 12 months.

What are your thoughts on how the situation will develop?

Does anybody have any advice or suggestions on which route to take?

[deltahotel]

The CAA validation for EASA licences expires at the end of 2022. It is possible this may be extended but there is no sign of this happening, so you should plan on needing a UK licence to fly G reg wef 1/1/23.

[4535jacks]

I am coming to the end of my training and decided to train for both a UK and EASA licence at the same time. Here has been my experience of this route.

I completed my ATPL exams with Austro in Dec 2020 (studied with BGS), just before the cut off date and changed my SOLI to IAA so I held an Irish PPL(A). I was then reissued a UK PPL in July 21 meaning I held two PPLs. This process probably cost me circa £600-800 with all the various application fees.

I completed CPL training at a UK ATO with EASA approval and made sure all my instructors held a UK and Irish licence with the correct privileges. I did a single CPL skills test in August 21 with a examiner with both UK and EASA (Danish) privileges. This cost me an extra £150 on top of the £826 UK test fee to do the two tests at the same time.

In addition to the £250 UK CPL licence issue fee, I had to pay €450 for the issue of the Irish CPL.

MEP was done at the same ATO and again the training was valid for the issue of both a UK and Irish MEP and I did a single test with a UK/Irish examiner and for a single fee. In addition to the £143 fee to add a rating to my UK CPL, I had to pay €250 to have the rating added to my Irish CPL.

I have been undertaking MEIR training at the same ATO and again my training counts towards the issue of both a UK and EASA licence. I will soon be attempting my MEIR skills test but I cannot combine these and so have to complete two separate skills test as the EASA test must be done in EASA airspace and the UK within UK airspace (a rule introduced into EASA by the UK CAA no less!). Therefore, I will have to pay to hire a twin for two hours (circa £1000), plus the approach fees (£60-100) twice! This means I can do a skills test in the UK and one in EASA airspace (France). In addition to the £826 UK test fee, I will have to pay an EASA test fee of around £250. I will also have to pay two rating fees meaning an additional €250.

All in all, I believe that gaining an EASA fATPL at the same time as a UK one will have cost me an extra £3000 that I did not budget for when I started my training in April 2019. For that £3000, I hold the same privileges had the UK remained within EASA and so I am no better off, just out of pocket. Sadly with some airlines requiring a UK licence and others (such as Ryanair) requiring an EASA one, in my opinion, UK pilots really need both licences to maximise their chances of employment during what will undoubtedly be a very challenging period for newly-trained pilots.

Good luck to those of you starting your training. With Brexit and Covid-19, there has not been a more a challenging time to train and I don't envy anyone having to choose UK vs EASA when there is no indication as to what the future holds and no engagement from the CAA.

[Alex Whittingham]

the EASA test must be done in EASA airspace and the UK within UK airspace There's been a suggestion in the bazaars that the UK CAA may be about to drop or disregard this requirement. Might be worth getting chapter and verse from as high up in the licensing team as you can.

[4535jacks]

Alex, they'll probably drop it after I do mine.......

[interested123]

I have PM’d you with a few Q’s.