UK ATPL Situation
I want a Blue User Title
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Winterthur
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
UK ATPL Situation
Hi, is anyone actually considering the ATPL exams as of now (2021) with COVID and Brexit affecting pilot jobs. In addition the new exam format with horrible type-in style questions requiring an exact answer.
Please share your thoughts as there might be others in the same boat. Perhaps I am seeing only the negative.
Please share your thoughts as there might be others in the same boat. Perhaps I am seeing only the negative.
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: London
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kswiss im in the same boat. Started EASA route years ago. Stopped for a few reasons, mainly work and now picking up again. I’m at the which syllabus stage. I have an EASA issued licence from many years prior to brexit dates and a continued medical except latest one is issued under UK.
My gut feeling is I’d like to do EASA as I can see UK CAA recognising it more than EASA recognising CAA as the politicians will never play nicely in the sandbox. However I see a couple of sticking points…
1. depending on who you speak to you get a different answer regarding whether your licence is recognised by EASA or not. I believe my licence automatically changed over to a UK one, but I’ve had this confirmed by one training organisation and told another believes the opposite is the case ass long as I have a EASA medical. The CAA’s website doesn’t really help as it jumps between EASA and CAA. One website did suggest that if you wish to work in the UK it might soon be that UK won’t recognise EASA licences.
2. Written Exams are easy to organise either way so not too worried here
3. Flight test - now for the fixed wing world. Things may be different but for my Rotary wish wonder if getting an EASA checkride is going to prove difficult if based in the UK and if indeed student visas may be needed in the future.
for me it is really simple - I want an internationally recognised licence. However should I get to the ATP stage of hours then I can self certify In some regions and just sit the exams rather than pay money for “training” over and over. So what’s your thoughts thus far?
** I will say one training organisation did have a suggested licensing contact to check what they told me, so I will be doing that this week hopefully.
My gut feeling is I’d like to do EASA as I can see UK CAA recognising it more than EASA recognising CAA as the politicians will never play nicely in the sandbox. However I see a couple of sticking points…
1. depending on who you speak to you get a different answer regarding whether your licence is recognised by EASA or not. I believe my licence automatically changed over to a UK one, but I’ve had this confirmed by one training organisation and told another believes the opposite is the case ass long as I have a EASA medical. The CAA’s website doesn’t really help as it jumps between EASA and CAA. One website did suggest that if you wish to work in the UK it might soon be that UK won’t recognise EASA licences.
2. Written Exams are easy to organise either way so not too worried here
3. Flight test - now for the fixed wing world. Things may be different but for my Rotary wish wonder if getting an EASA checkride is going to prove difficult if based in the UK and if indeed student visas may be needed in the future.
for me it is really simple - I want an internationally recognised licence. However should I get to the ATP stage of hours then I can self certify In some regions and just sit the exams rather than pay money for “training” over and over. So what’s your thoughts thus far?
** I will say one training organisation did have a suggested licensing contact to check what they told me, so I will be doing that this week hopefully.
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Bristol, England
Age: 65
Posts: 1,806
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have an EASA issued licence from many years prior to brexit dates and a continued medical except latest one is issued under UK.
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Bristol, England
Age: 65
Posts: 1,806
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In that case your old CAA-issued EASA licence has become a UK licence as you suspected. it is no longer valid for EASA registered aircraft. There is a transition period to Dec 2022 where the CAA will continue to accept EASA certificates and ratings, with some caveats so, if you did an EASA rating with an EASA ATO that had its approvals in place on exit day (not one of the UK ATOs that gained EASA accreditation the day after) then the CAA should accept it and put it on your UK licence. Similarly the CAA will obv accept a rating from a UK ATO.
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: London
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Alex Whittingham thanks for confirming what I suspected. So in my case a sharp EASA Written with a flight test by UK ATO that was (and still is) EASA approved prior to brexit date would be best route providing I complete both by dec2022. Possibly tight but we will see. I will just have to make sure my medical next year is also recognised although I’m sure my ME has already got this covered by nature of the fact. He was processing most of the airlines medical for many years. Thanks Alex
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Bristol, England
Age: 65
Posts: 1,806
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Very few UK ATOs gained EASA approval before exit day, I'm afraid. At the moment the licence conversion UK to EASA involves pretty much the whole licensing process except the hours. ie pass all the ATPL theory, pass CPL/IR. You may be exempt approved training - this depends on the licence you hold and the one you are going for, and the attitude of the issuing state and supervising ATO - but I think you will still be expected to do 'training as required' before the flight tests. The easiest transition is if you have passed ATPL theory, held an EASA IR before exit day, and can find a compliant Authority in which case you may/should get credit for ATPL theory, get an EASA medical and take an EASA ATPL skills test. You have to have the hours for an ATPL to do this, if not it's a CPL by a longer route. The date of Dec 2022 only affects CAA recognition.
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: London
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Alex Whittingham ohh so likely hood of me having the hours for the ATP issue is very low as fi would need 350 hours ME, which in the helicopter world would be virtually impossible in that time. In all honesty as for me this is only a want to achieve the next training level and eventually complement my FAA CFI, as opposed to a career choice, whilst it would be nice to do a bit from time to time for a career it wouldn't pay the mortgages, or afford me my own machine. It makes sense to do the ATPL-H VFR as I understand there is no time limit on adding the IR later should I wish, hence why I didn't just think of CPL route as I would have to re-do all the exams again I believe?
So perhaps I am better with the UK CP and then if necessary sit all teh EASA exams later should i need to.. I'm more likely to fly non-easa aircraft, either G, N r C reg in any case ?
THE ICAO was supposed to make everything comparable to each other and then politicians happened I guess!
So perhaps I am better with the UK CP and then if necessary sit all teh EASA exams later should i need to.. I'm more likely to fly non-easa aircraft, either G, N r C reg in any case ?
THE ICAO was supposed to make everything comparable to each other and then politicians happened I guess!
I want a Blue User Title
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Winterthur
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks guys. A bit of background for those holding ATPL and fixed wing hours in other regions ie: Middle East/China and looking to return to UK there is a choice of converting the ATPL to:
UK CAA
EASA
ICAO
All of which would require sitting the 14 exams again presumably.
UK CAA
EASA
ICAO
All of which would require sitting the 14 exams again presumably.
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: London
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes but from what I understand if you already have an ATPL, certainly for the UK, you are exempt from the forced classroom sessions in most cases. which gives you question bank costs for revision I guess and a quicker path from what I have gleaned.
Last edited by PDMG; 5th Oct 2021 at 10:11. Reason: spelling - dohh
k.swiss
Not exactly. CAA and EASA require 14 exams unless you have held a valid EASA IR in the last 7 years. ICAO will require anything from 1 to 14 depending on the authority.
Not exactly. CAA and EASA require 14 exams unless you have held a valid EASA IR in the last 7 years. ICAO will require anything from 1 to 14 depending on the authority.
I fortunately obtained a U.K./EASA ATPL before Brexit however given the state of the industry and the seemingly lack of assistance / cooperation from the regulatory bodies, I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a lack of suitably licensed / current pilots in the not too distant future. There’s not a chance in hell I’d resit those 14 exams to take a job far away from home on some unsustainable contract with the fear of unpaid leave or worse hanging over my mortgage payments every month, never mind having to also pay for it! Ludicrous!
Last edited by Contact Approach; 5th Oct 2021 at 17:46.
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: London
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That was a message that I got from my friendly ATO that they thought that at some point there will need to be bilateral recognition. The CAA seem to see this but EASA may be having its nuts clenched slightly by Euro politics perhaps?
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: From UK
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The decision is purely political, but more on the UK side. The UK can not stay in EASA as EASA is subject to ECJ jurisdiction which the current Conservative government said they would never accept.
It's more difficult on the other side as any deal has to be agreed between all 27 member states (national sovereignty and all that) and the EU Parliament and there is no way all of them are going to agree that the ECJ shouldn't have jurisdiction over EASA.
The only thing the UK and British CAA can do is to unilaterally accept EASA licences permanently, but I think there is too much nationalist pride involved. So we get the current fudge that someone who finished all exams in December 2020 gets them recognised, but someone who did it with the same questions and systems in January 2021 does not (though they only need to resit those sat post December 2020).
For the future, there are a few possibilities. The UK unilaterally recognising EASA qualifications and licences is possible, but not likely. EASA recognising UK ones on the same basis is incredibly unlikely. A future government taking us back into EASA is possible, but certainly not in the short-term. Students being shafted is basically a certainty.
It's more difficult on the other side as any deal has to be agreed between all 27 member states (national sovereignty and all that) and the EU Parliament and there is no way all of them are going to agree that the ECJ shouldn't have jurisdiction over EASA.
The only thing the UK and British CAA can do is to unilaterally accept EASA licences permanently, but I think there is too much nationalist pride involved. So we get the current fudge that someone who finished all exams in December 2020 gets them recognised, but someone who did it with the same questions and systems in January 2021 does not (though they only need to resit those sat post December 2020).
For the future, there are a few possibilities. The UK unilaterally recognising EASA qualifications and licences is possible, but not likely. EASA recognising UK ones on the same basis is incredibly unlikely. A future government taking us back into EASA is possible, but certainly not in the short-term. Students being shafted is basically a certainty.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Leeds
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CAA or EASA ATPL?
I am currently hour building via the modular route. My initial plan was to start ATPL theory when I reach 50hour PIC (approximately 6-7 months weather permitting), which should give me enough time to complete my exams, gain the hours and not have to stop working.
I will shortly reach the point where I need to decide whether CAA or EASA exams are the way to go. At present I believe that EASA licences can be accepted by the CAA but not vice versa and therefore EASA would be the obvious choice. However, my concern is that if the rules change later down the line I would be stuck with an EASA licence and unable to work in the U.K. As I only have U.K. citizenship this would make working in the EU problematic.
I have considered delaying but do not want to do this for more than 12 months.
What are your thoughts on how the situation will develop?
Does anybody have any advice or suggestions on which route to take?
I will shortly reach the point where I need to decide whether CAA or EASA exams are the way to go. At present I believe that EASA licences can be accepted by the CAA but not vice versa and therefore EASA would be the obvious choice. However, my concern is that if the rules change later down the line I would be stuck with an EASA licence and unable to work in the U.K. As I only have U.K. citizenship this would make working in the EU problematic.
I have considered delaying but do not want to do this for more than 12 months.
What are your thoughts on how the situation will develop?
Does anybody have any advice or suggestions on which route to take?