Kabul FIR still safe?

[fox niner]

Is the Kabul FIR in danger of collapsing, now that the Taliban has taken over in Afghanistan?
Will there be problems in the overflight of the Kabul FIR, could it be closed?
Who operates the radio at this moment?
Who picks up the phone at the ATC center?
Where is it located and does it have electical power?
Do we need to re-route via the middle east on the Europe-Far East route?

[excrab]

Can’t help thinking that the Taliban will already know what they’ve captured and what they haven’t, and probably won’t need pprune as a source of intelligence. FAA have issued a notam forbidding US registered aircraft from going anywhere except Kabul, but don’t think overflights at high level are an issue.

[Silvershadow]

TV news says BA have announced they will no longer be overflying Afghanistan.

[fluglehrer]

NATO Official: Commercial flights into and out of Kabul Airport are suspended immediately. Only military flights are allowed in and out. Evacuation efforts continue.

[airseb]

KLM and Air France have stopped overflying Kabul FIR, BA as said previously.

[wiggy]

The last restriction I saw (yesterday, FAA) was overflight was allowed by US carriers, with a minimum altitude being specified.

May have missed it but not heard of any change today.

[visibility3miles]

Eyewitnesses have described chaos at the Kabul airport with a stampede on the tarmac injuring civilians

Taliban enter Kabul, Afghan government collapses.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-asia-58219963

[slf99]

Indeed Wiggy you are correct I regret to say.
The last FAA NOTAM was 25 July and prohibits flights below FL 260 except for operations to/from Kabul airport.
As “Ginger Ninja” said earlier, what happens in the event of an emergency?
I fear the FAA (and perhaps also United) are asleep at the switch here.
Surely a prudent operator would literally steer clear anyway, e.g. as recent BA tracks show?

[FullWings]

It may be that there is not much in the way of ATC left...

[PoppaJo]

I am watching footage of people climbing up what appears to be a A340 to get onboard. The airport has been over run with citizens trying to get the hell out of there.

Have no idea how this Turkish crew will get this Triple out.

Airspace is now closed for commercial operations.

[Beamr]

Just a wild quess: they anticipated no ground services (push, fuel etc) and the apron is most likely very crowded by people (based on videos), hence taxied straight to holding point to unload/load and being ready to leave asap. Most probably that area is also covered by the US forces as they need the runway, too.

[Little One]

NOTAM issued by Pakistan NOTAM OfficeA0630/21 NOTAMN
Q) OAKX/QAFAM/IV/NBO/A/000/999/3434N/6912E/999
A) OAKX
B) 2108160715 C) 2108180445 EST
E) FOLLOWING NOTAM IS ISSUED ON REQUEST OF KABUL ACC.
DUE SECURITY REASON KABUL ACC IS RELEASED TO MILITARY.
NO ATS WILL BE AVAILABLE. AIRCRAFT TRANSITING THROUGH
KABUL FIR WILL BE FLYING IN UN-CONTROLLED AIRSPACE AT
THEIR OWN RISK.

1. TRAFFIC ON ATS ROUTE L750 TO CONTACT ON FREQ 134.5 MHZ
AT POINT RANAH.

2. TRAFFIC ON ATS ROUTE N644 TO CONTACT ON FREQ 134.5 MHZ
AT POINT LEMOD.

3. TRAFFIC ON ATS ROUTE A466 TO CONTACT ON FREQ 134.3 MHZ
AT POINT AMDAR.

4. TRAFFIC ON ATS ROUTE P500 TO CONTACT ON FREQ 133.1 MHZ
AT POINT MOTMO.
CREATED: 16 Aug 2021 07:39:00
SOURCE: OPKCYNYX

[PoppaJo]

Twitter is showing videos of Apaches trying to clear people off the runway in order to get this 777 out.

[Dct_Mopas]

Turkish 777 now airborne, as reported the first takeoff was rejected due to people on the runway

What a miserable state of affairs. Glad to see the 777 on it’s way now.

[Beamr]

News and tweets here.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/42007/apache-helicopters-chase-afghans-swarming-a-c-17-on-kabul-airports-runway

[Moi/]

At what point does the "world" step in and help extract people...

[caiman27]

There's thousands of troops of various countries already on the ground at Kabul Airport. However, the airport perimeter has been comprehensively breached and there's many people just milling around desperate to escape. Just look at the video of that C17 departing with people falling from it to their deaths. There is no way to operate aircraft safely there without re-establishing a secure perimeter and being prepared to defend that perimeter with significant force. That would not look great on TV.

I imagine that the best short-term solution would be to just let the situation settle and maintain the much smaller areas within the airport that are currently militarily secure.

[Capt Fathom]

It’s like the scenes from Da Nang in 1975.

[gtaflyer]

I don’t get it, if Americans pulled out why are there any civil aircraft at the airport? Whichever airlines decided to go land there need there head examined. The Americans have messed up very badly if they pulled out and left civilians behind!

[inducedrag]

Today United is using the same for flight to India


Flight UA829 from New York to Mumbai used airway P500 over Afghanistan

[Avman]

Is it known if the Taliban have the necessary weapons at hand to pose a threat to high level overflights at this point in time? Would their number one priority not be to win and secure their positions on the ground? It might be argued that overflights are not yet in immediate danger.

[Beamr]

Wouldn't you be relying too much on your TCAS and mk1 eyeball as there is no services available?

[Avman]

No different to crossing some areas of Africa. Aircraft are able to communicate with each other and provide position reports.

[Beamr]

Dunno about Africa, would there be military atc + multitude of military aircraft asking politely for you to go minding your business elsewhere?

[Alpine Flyer]

LH Group ist stopping Kabul FIR overflights due to unclear situation.

[Chipzilla]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1170x1397/238963474_158806659701082_2355407133534127142_n_67a6854ecd4d d8a530cb71a639d9509d74b8c12d.jpg

[CargoOne]

Reports are on C17 took off with 800 pax onboard. Wow….

[bucoops]

Must be so scary. Leaving your world with the clothes you have on and that's it. Probably quite a few with members of their family left behind. Awful business.

[Rie]

Of those 800 it looks like there are 700+ men... Interesting.

[givemewings]

Given how few women could be seen in the video footage, it is possible that the ones seen here are the few who actually made it to the airport in the first place...

Also "women and children first" is a myth perpetuated by popular culture... stats say historically it's been otherwise, with children making up the largest figure of victims in for example's sake, shipwrecks.

Already reports of women of certain age being rounded up as "wives" for Taliban fighters... And they've supposedly "changed their views on women" :yuk:

[Max Tow]

Yes, though this was presumably on the controlled military ramp so one doesn't know to what extent these were the interpreters etc pre-selected by the military.
However the crowd scenes on the civilian side of the airport and on the runway seem to be almost exclusively healthy young adult males who apparently prefer to run rather than to defend their women and kids. I think Joe Biden made the same point last night. As someone pointed out above, echoes of Da Nang where Ed Daly's 727 mission to rescue women and children sadly ended up, after the fight to board, with something like 350 males,5 women and 3 children.

[Turnleft080]

Can't imagine what the C17 flight crew would be saying at the time, as they were taxiing with hundreds right at the nose gear and clinging on the gear doors. They will remember that sortie forever.

[krismiler]

There would be no clearances to overfly available and no separation provided, a mandatory broadcast frequency is more designed for picking up ATC errors rather than having pilots sort out things entirely by themselves.

Overflight charges are easy money and I'm sure the Taliban will want that source of income back asap.

The USA military provided some sort of ATC coverage in Somalia, so possibly having an AWACS deal with high level transit traffic would be possible.

I'm sure airlines overflying Afghanistan have been onto their insurance companies

[veryoldchinahand]

Turkish Air Force A400M ex Ankara Reg 17-0078 heading for Kabul at 14.11 local.
Carrying what I wonder ?

[V-Jet]

There are more important issues to be considering here than snide sexist comments. Where has the COVID testing being done prior to boarding and why no masks? Do these people not care? Why is the military allowing this errant behaviour??

Militarily - I've read online (so of course it's true) 'safe passage' policy has been reneged on due to Biden's recent 'threats'. Collaborators and gays are being executed, Kabul is now closed and of course, the Taliban have SAM's.

If only someone could have had the foresight to see this might happen......

PS: RR & givemewings - I did too. Hilariously unfunny:)
PPS: VOCH - hopefully something very big....

[bucoops]

Best armchair guess - their mission is a humanitarian one, if they were trying to hide their position this might be taken as a contradiction? If (and hopefully it will not happen) any of the aircraft are threatened I expect the stance will change very rapidly.

[WillowRun 6-3]

21sab141-ats-not-available-in-kabul-fir.pdf (ifalpa.org) (https://www.ifalpa.org/media/3654/21sab141-ats-not-available-in-kabul-fir.pdf)

[chinaman1119]

You both have hit the nail smartly on the head.

The German A400M's (our wise ones called the C17 "too much aircraft" when Boeing offered it and again when Boeing rang the closing bell on its production run ... and I still weep) are to shuttle between Kabul and Tashkent. The first one last night uplifted 7 souls (at least the Corona spacing wasn't a worry.

But so anyway .. current news reports are saying that Lufthansa will tonight dispatch a A340-300 to TAS and a B747-? to DOH on behalf of the government. There were Germans on the US C17 to DOH, but never a B747s worth. I fear the first 300 or so Afghans will land in Germany by midday tomorrow. And indeed some may or will have magically de-aged mid air to arrive as 16 year olds.

I am not lacking compassion ... but it irks me to see "the system" abused like that (apart from the fact that it is abuseable in the first place) and makes me think "what a way to start your new life - with a lie". Don't want to drift off though (this not being Jet Blast).

[gnirtS]

This has been doing the rounds since last night (cant vouch for accuracy) but the contents do seem to correlate with the other public information out there ( I cant post URLs yet but Twitter and DanLamothe status ) from the infamous flight.

Text of the document is:
(U) Aircraft Callsign: RCH885; tail number: 2-1109;
type: C17A; departed Hamid Karzai International
Airport (OKAB) at 07112 after it was delayed by a
crowd of local nationals attempting to board the
aircraft by any means necessary. After departure,
the crew through aircraft inspection windows,
noticed that a body appeared to be stuck in the
right wheel well of the aircraft. An IFE was
declared at 10582 for a landing gear malfunction
and possible stowaway. Emergency response
personnel met the aircraft upon landing. Fire
Department confirmed a body was found wedged
against the wheel well of the aircraft with a hand
and foot jammed in retractable elements of the
landing gear doors/mechanisms. Post flight
inspection revealed what appears to be elements
of human remains in the left wheel well also. A
search of the approach corridor to AUAB
uncovered a human hand. This , coupled with air
traffic control tower reports, suggests a second
stowaway similarly attempted to board the aircraft
but departed sometime between departure from
HKIA and arrival in AUAB. Searches of the
approach corridor to AUAB continue with the
assistance of the Qatari government. The crew of
RCH885 departed the aircraft and is currently
being evaluated by Medical and Mental Health
Teams.

Im unable to post URLs so cant link to the actual source but Twitter ghpitboss message 1427457839266676738 should find it.

Posting without comment as related information only.

[UV]

Was the taxiing aircraft, with people trying to get on board, the same one that was filled with the refugees and trying to depart?

[gnirtS]

No. The swarmed flight with the above incident was Reach 885 (1109). The more famous 640 pax evacuation was Reach 871 (0186) the previous night .
Different flights.

[mickjoebill]

At time of posting, Russian funded TV has what is said to be live view of aircraft movements at Kabul.
Note that the video stream can be scrubbed backwards in time should you wish to evaluate recent movements.
Safe travels to all....https://youtu.be/SJYj2G-KiFY


Exit. Live stream has ceased, link takes you to two hour replay of the stream.

[hitchens97]

Fascinating story here on the captain of a PIA A320 that made the decision to take off from Kabul without authorization. All you pilots out here, would you have made the same call?

https://samchui.com/2021/08/18/make-your-own-decision-one-of-the-last-civilian-departures-out-of-kabul/#.YR1hkcpKhZe

[Avman]

He was actually the Captain of an A320. The B777 is a company aircraft which he mentions. Personally I believe he made the right call. I'm even surprised he waited as long as he did!

[krismiler]

Facing the possibility of his aircraft being overrun and his pax taken hostage, I believe he made the correct decision.

He certainly gave a good account of his reasons in the interview, and appears to have acted correctly.

[hitchens97]

Avman

Oops corrected to A320. Thanks for the catch.

It obviously all worked out well, but is there outcome bias here? If he had got shot down or collided with a millitary plance, would we still be saying it was the correct decision?

[mickjoebill]

Having come across a brutal picture, taken from inside the cargo area, of a body protruding from the undercarriage doors, I feel for the crew of the US Globemaster.
One of the heartbreaking aspects of the flight was that one of the victims who fell was just 16 years old.

[B2N2]

FAA says U.S. carriers can operate Kabul evacuation flights with DOD approval

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/faa-says-us-carriers-can-operate-kabul-evacuation-flights-with-dod-approval-2021-08-19/

[EDLB]

Nothing heroic here. Pilot did, what every student pilot does on an uncontrolled airfield in VMC conditions. Make the call on CTAF "Kabul traffic...." Throttle forward and off you go. PNF will look out too. Flight-plan activated at the next ATC center you reach as he did. If you do not find the exact situation in the FAA AIM. Thats what your grey mass between your ears is for and its called airmanship.
ATC op or inop will not prevent a shoot down. With so many US military airplanes minding their own business at that time, I would have taken the odds.

[WillowRun 6-3]

Previous Int'l Federation of Air Line Pilots Associations Safety Bulletin, updated as of August 18.

update-21sab142-ats-not-available-in-kabul-fir.pdf (ifalpa.org) (https://www.ifalpa.org/media/3655/update-21sab142-ats-not-available-in-kabul-fir.pdf)

[CargoOne]

The lack of ATC is one thing (is it a time to get Bossman back in the sky?) but I don’t think ex-Afghan army nor Talibs have assets capable of FL250+

[rak64]

On the NOTAM is a link to https://acaa.gov.af/notam/

There is another link to a an Alternate Webpage to view Afghanistan NOTAM (https://www.afgais.com/)

https://www.afgais.com

saying BY AFGHANISTAN NOTAM OFFICE.

an WHOIs leads to PERFECT PRIVACY, LLC

(G1219/21 NOTAMR G0760/21

Q) OAKX/QOAXX/IV/NBO/A/000/999/

A) OAKX B) 2107290530 (tel:2107290530) C) 2110242359EST

E) ALL OPERATORS REQUESTED TO CHECK ACTIVE AFGHANISTAN NOTAM ON

HTTPS://WWW.NOTAM-ACAA.COM ANDHTTPS://WWW.AFGAIS.COM.)

[Emma Royds]

Reuters - "We sneaked past the crowd": Airline pilot recounts escape from Kabul. (https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/we-sneaked-past-crowd-airline-pilot-recounts-escape-kabul-2021-08-20/)

An interesting account from an ex-pat Kam Air 737 pilot, who operated a 'lights off' departure in darkness to get out of the country.

[WillowRun 6-3]

IFALPA Safety Bulletin, updated as of 24 August 0800 UTC.
Given this poster's status as just SLF/attorney, I'm not even trying to summarize, or highlight, the content, which those interested surely will access as well as understand.

update-21sab144-kabul-fir-updated-information.pdf (ifalpa.org) (https://www.ifalpa.org/media/3659/update-21sab144-kabul-fir-updated-information.pdf)

[JanetFlight]

Just for curiosity please...who does (or did these last days) the ATC at Kabul Airport..!?
Military (USA, NATO, etc), some misc., Afghan civil staff, etc?

[YRP]

From looking at flightradar24 in the last day or few, there aren’t enough planes to need ATC at the airport.

[MarkerInbound]

Heard an interview yesterday on NPR with a Marine sergeant who working ATC at Kabul. Plan was to continue working till the last flight and walk over and get on it.

[Sallyann1234]

Without any defensive boots holding the perimeter, that last takeoff is going to be very vulnerable.

[vikingivesterled]

One would assume the last flight will be protected by forces that will leave by helicopters.
A larger question is when they'll pack down the automated C-RAM system that is the real defence of the airport,
as one can see of this article: https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/30/asia/rockets-fired-kabul-airport-intl-hnk/index.html

[pattern_is_full]

It's the Taliban's baby now. Last 5 C-17s out departed without problems, C-RAM, other gear and aircraft "demilitarized" - ARFF and civilian ground equipment left intect. Taliban provided area security in the end under a "pragmatic relationship."

"Thanks for all the fish!"

[EternalNY1]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/517x261/e_enhpzweaukx25_21efbed0ca3702513c2e9d4832a9a2161753a1a4.png

[WillowRun 6-3]

IFALPA Safety Bulletin as of August 31 2021:

update-21sab145-kabul-fir-updated-information.pdf (ifalpa.org) (https://www.ifalpa.org/media/3660/update-21sab145-kabul-fir-updated-information.pdf)

[WillowRun 6-3]

From IFALPA, the next in series of updated Safety Bulletins (it's the first following August 31 unless one has been missed).

Link:
update-21sab146-kabul-fir-updated-information.pdf (ifalpa.org) (https://www.ifalpa.org/media/3661/update-21sab146-kabul-fir-updated-information.pdf)

It will be -- or at least it could be -- interesting to see what organizational initiatives ICAO undertakes or what changes it makes in the aftermath of all this. That is, under a heading of, What Lessons Learned Are There from the Kabul FIR Contingency Coordination Team (CCT) Effort? To the observations of this SLF/attorney it doesn't appear that the work of this CCT has been either routine or just an implementation of existing procedures documented in the volumes of information published by ICAO. Perhaps, even, this subject will be up for discussion at the imminent next meeting of ICAO's Council??

[WillowRun 6-3]

IFALPA continues to publish updated Safety Bulletin editions - this one includes various information items denoted as "New."

update-21sab147-kabul-fir-updated-information.pdf (ifalpa.org) (https://www.ifalpa.org/media/3665/update-21sab147-kabul-fir-updated-information.pdf)