UK Licensing

[haveago]

What’s happening with UK “EASA” license and the mutual recognition between EU and UK. Having been made redundant like so many of us the Europe market for jobs is now not even an option!

[macdo]

I think the saying is up #### creek without a paddle, unless the politicians get their act together on this. Which, with the current situation in the UK, seems unlikely. An update from BALPA yesterday was not promising.

[Central Scrutinizer]

The situation is extremely ****** up right now.

EASA now treats the UK as an ICAO Third-Country. But it does so retroactively as well, meaning that if you had obtained your licence while the UK was in EASA, it is now no longer an EASA licence. This is what I am most amazed about.

There are two routes to go from an ICAO licence to an EASA licence:

Commisssion Delegated Regulation EU 2020/723 of 4 March 2020
US-EU Bilateral Aviation Safety Agreement

The first route involves re-doing all the ATPL exams, which were quite possibly EASA exams when you sat them (FFS!). The second route involves going from the UK to a US licence, and then from US to EU. Canada can also be a bridge licence here: so the conversion route would be: UK -> Canada -> US -> EASA.

It's all just very depressing and ridiculous at the moment.

[kontrolor]

By choice from UK side though...

[Duchess_Driver]

But it does so retroactively as well, meaning that if you had obtained your licence while the UK was in EASA, it is now no longer an EASA licence

Source for this is?

[haveago]

It’s totally ridiculous! Unfair and unjust. So many of us have lost of our jobs as a result of Covid. To subsequently realize your “EASA” license is no longer EASA and any job opportunity that may have come you are no longer eligible for! It’s demoralizing! I really hope this changes. ASAP

[Kirks gusset]

https://info.caa.co.uk/uk-eu-transition/commercial-pilots/

About as clear as the CAA can make it!

[Central Scrutinizer]

Duchess_Driver

https://www.easa.europa.eu/the-agency/faqs/brexit

They have screwed us pretty badly. Me even more so since I am not a UK national and am caught in the middle of all this mess, with a licence that has now become virtually worthless and with addtional further training and cost required to be employable in Europe and in my home country...

[Central Scrutinizer]

haveago

Exactly.

If you have more than 1000 hours there are "validation" routes from ICAO to EASA. But for a 200 hour CPL/IR like myself, this situation is extremely depressing. To the point of even considering whether this whole pursuit is worth it anymore or should I just give up and do something else.

[Max Angle]

I really hope this changes. ASAP
My guess is it won't change while the current ideologues are in charge.

[what next]

Central Scrutinizer

The situation is not in the least different in EASAland right now, so you won't miss any jobs without an EASA license. There are simply none to be found no matter what license you have.

[macdo]

That is not true. Over the last few weeks I have seen some adverts for aircrew in Europe which have required an EASA license, one such less than an hour ago for an airline that is reasonably well known. These jobs are no longer open to UK pilots unless the hoops, which are many and expensive, are jumped through. The reverse is not true of any UK domiciled jobs, which have been extremely rare, but can be held by EASA licensees. It is not a level playing field, it is not just and it needs sorting out.

[NutLoose]

Kirks gusset

We will study the detail of the new agreements and will update relevant pages of the microsite as information becomes clearer about how the new arrangements will work in practice. We will notify stakeholders of the updates through the SkyWise alert system. If you haven’t already done so, please subscribe to the EU exit category in the SkyWise system: skywise.caa.co.uk (http://skywise.caa.co.uk/)


That to me says the CAA was not involved in the transition negotiations, which as the relevant and most knowledgeable government body on the subject, who the heck was?

[Jonty]

The point I would make is that just because you have an EASA licence doesn’t mean you can come and work here. You need a work visa as well. So European pilots with out British settled status are barred from working here. With or without an EASA licence.

[Crosswind Limits]

From my experience, the vast majority of the jobs advertised in Europe also required the relevant language not just English and most Brits didn’t qualify, despite the EASA licence.

[Alrosa]

Last two posts ring true - in addition to the EASA licence you would most likely need the right to live and work in the EU...and many of those airlines currently recruiting (mainly cargo) require you to be an EU national or have the right to live/work in the EU.

I’m sorry to say this, but this is the unfortunate result of the referendum in 2016.....but it’s ok, because now we have our sovereignty back , and life is so much better outside the EU....

[what next]

macdo

Has anybody been hired from one of these adverts? Of our students no one has been hired since about one year. And they all have an EASA license and EU citizenship. And of all the experienced pilots I know who have lost their job since the COVID crisis no one has been re-hired yet.

[haveago]

Not all jobs out there are in Europe. There are UK based jobs with aircraft European registered. I have over 15000 hours and now find myself almost unemployable. I’ve still got 20 years to give to this industry. It’s an insult to have to sit exams I’ve already sat and passed over 20 years ago! This needs to be rectified ASAP! We have all found ourselves mixed up in politics. Seriously!! What other professions have to re-qualify for the same job when they already had the correct qualification!

[Central Scrutinizer]

what next

Well, I appreciate it if that’s supposed to be a consolation, but it’s still a :mad: one.

I’d much rather have the problem of “not having a job” than the problem of “not having a licence AND not having a job”. It’s one step further down the ladder of problems...

Also I’m in a particularly ****ty situation as I am not a British but an EU national. My British licence won’t help me find a job in my home country...

[Central Scrutinizer]

haveago

Indeed.

Want to start a pressure group or something to try and lobby politicians to fight for this issue? Because that’s what it is, politics.

One has been working hard to go through the qualification process to then have some politicians just destroy everything and mess with people’s life’s like that. It’s disgusting.

[Denti]

haveago

Actually, almost all jobs have to requalify if they want to work in Europe. Services are not part of the TCA and therefore professional qualifications are not recognized in the EU. Want to be an architect in the EU? Well, sit all your exams in the EU again, provide EU work experience (usually done as an intern) and so on. The UK wanted to be out of the EU, and they are now out. They have the same standing and the same rules applied to them as any other third country. In fact, most of those barriers were written into the EU rules by UK experts, so the UK should be very much aware of those problems, they designed them.

[Denti]

Duchess_Driver

EASA brexit side. That was already mentioned on that one in 2017, so it is hardly new information, back then it was for a hard brexit, and for services, of which aviation is just one, it is a hard brexit.

[macdo]

what next

Yes I do know people who have got jobs within the last 12 months, Turkey, Vietnam and Malta. All experienced pilots. I am told that RYR have recently started TR courses. However, I have not heard of any British pilots getting a position since the new Brexit rules came into force. I do know that these rules are creating bad feeling amongst some UK pilots who feel discriminated against.

[FlyingStone]

The key thing for British citizens to take from this is, come next election, remember who campaigned for Brexit, who pushed for it, who arranged for this awesome deal and who cheered it as the best thing since sliced bread.

[stormin norman]

FlyingGreek

The CAA have never been underfunded. I tried to renew my licence recently but they didnt reply to my e- mail question and nobody would answer the phone.
There just a poorly run government department. IMHO

[Ascoteer]

The CAA have intimated they will issue UK Part FCL licences from April 2021. In the meantime, have we contacted all appropriate NAAs to check if they offer equivalency for a SOLI transfer prior to this? Will the CAA process such an application if made now?

[Central Scrutinizer]

The CAA have intimated they will issue UK Part FCL licences from April 2021.
Source for this?

In the meantime, have we contacted all appropriate NAAs to check if they offer equivalency for a SOLI transfer prior to this?
I have contacted 8 or so NAAs. Most haven't responded. Switzerland and Norway replied with a "go away leave me alone" kind of reply.

Will the CAA process such an application if made now?
No, as stated on their website. A SOLI transfer can't be started anymore.

[deltahotel]

Cut and paste from CAA EU exit microsite FAQs.

The CAA is currently developing a process to enable pilots to apply for the issue of a UK Part-FCL licence based on the licence they hold with an EASA member state. This will be available to pilots that previously held an EASA licence and transferred it out, and to pilots that hold a licence issued by an EASA member state prior to 31 December 2020. This will be available from 1 April 2021.

[Ascoteer]

Central Scrutinizer

SOLI probably wasn't the right term, I suppose we would have to be looking for some level of accreditation in order to be issued a new licence elsewhere. As most of us have completed EASA exams, and hold an EASA recurrent and medical, I'm in hope that some level of equivalency might be levied by a country looking to make a quick buck; I'm guessing this won't be a quick process, though.

[Central Scrutinizer]

If you completed the exams with the UK CAA, those exams are no longer EASA exams. This is what's really amazing of this whole issue. The same for your medical, if held with the UK CAA, it's no longer an EASA medical.

At the moment one of two ways of getting an EASA licence holding a UK licence is to go through the ICAO conversion process which involves:

Re-doing all the EASA exams
Re-doing an INITIAL Class 1
Assessment by an ATO with training as required
Re-doing the skills tests for CPL and IR.


The other way is to get a US licence and make use of the US-EU bilateral agreement. Not sure what this involves.

[biddedout]

Ireland is the obvious choice for an EASA licence but I am told they are maxed out and don't have enough staff to cope, The same applies to medicals. Pilots have been left trying to second guess which licence/medical to have and now the authorities haven't got the capacity to provide the service and reverse unfortunate bad but well intentioned choices, and Covid problems just add to the chaos. AME's are struggling to cope with more complex PPE medicals, many are shielding and have closed down and some have retired. Adding to this, the CAA is about to put everything online and this is going to lead to more AME angst. I believe the Irish AME's (there aren't enough of them) are struggling too. Oh and the Govt dumped Brexit chaos on top of this just to add a bit more pointless chaos and confusion to satisfy the people who simply and irrationally just hate the E in EASA..
All this is being pointed out to Shapps by people who care and who are trying to smooth over the cracks but it sounds like he is just stone-walling them or doesn't understand or care.
I also heard that Ryanair have been caught out by this because there is so little EASA medical capacity in the UK and travelling abroad to get one done is a nightmare, There is very little spare medical capacity in the EU for the same reasons above.

[Non Linear Gear]

macdo

Voted for the B word and been had? Welcome to the club.

[Naverick]

Any thoughts/ideas on how UK citizens returning to UK, who hold Canadian/Australian ATPL’s with 1000s of hours airline experience, will obtain a UK CAA ATP? Cheers

[NutLoose]

It all could have been avoided with a simple grandfather rights, such as when we joined EASA. Then it would have filtered through and sorted itself out eventually as people retired etc, instead of a the sudden upheaval. That would have been the logical sensible approach.

[haihio]

Is there any new news on this subject ?

Surely the UK CAA and Easa could work something out to accept each other’s qualifications without having to go through the whole exams, medical and possibly flight training again.
Switzerland which is not in the EU managed to get some kind of deal so that they are also in EASA.

[TURIN]

The Swiss have accepted some of aspects of the EU and have treaties that cover it.
Something the UK government refuses to do.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland%E2%80%93European_Union_relations#:~:text=Switzer land%20pays%20into%20the%20EU,to%20join%20the%20Schengen%20A rea.