A320: What "additional procedures" are you considering when reaching the STS page? [Archive]

FlightDetent

24th Jan 2021, 21:07

Sytem reset, before diving into the lengthy read.

The engine restart you mention is only one of the systems reset in the larger picture. Since the EO drill goes deep most pilots think that way. The FCTM explains it properly when read with a naked eye.

Look at your wording,, when reaching the STS page, the crew should consider any normal C/list, or any additional procedure as applicable not exactly the true FCTM
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/446x176/snippet_f4736b45b751309cb587bec388efa65e8c2cef30.png
is it? :ok:

For the "any additional procedure" I never had something particular in mind. Talking to ATC and discussing what request to place with them if obvious might be a good move at that moment. Interrupting the drill in a controlled manner is not a bad choice, helps the brains to catch up.

Your suggestion of APU start, while nowhere mentioned in the books, fits well my understanding of the sequence.
1) you notice the problem, and acknowledge it
2) you fly
3) the 2 of you CRM a little and navigate
4) you check together what actually did happen (FCTM = by observing the OVHD panel too)
5 - ECAM ACTIONS) you secure the malfunction, isolate essential systems etc. This is no solution, just getting the horse back beneath your saddle.
6) you make an attempt to restore what's possible (APU start, ENG relight - well we do not do those actually)
7) - STATUS you learn in detail what the situation is and some consequences: This makes sense only after having tried to nudge the beast a little.
8) Count your chicken, make the decision to divert, return or continue
9) CRM a little more, three now is better than two before

So at 6) It's engine restart, APU start, ... computer reboot, system reset using the normal control such as stuck PTT. My take it's the moment you want to take a breat before kind of "committing" to the failure as originally displayed.

iggy

25th Jan 2021, 07:40

FlightDetent

25th Jan 2021, 10:43

Iggy, genuine question. Is the suggestion to apply those before the first read of the STS page?

vilas

25th Jan 2021, 11:08

sonicbum

25th Jan 2021, 12:36

So at 6) It's engine restart, APU start, ... computer reboot, system reset using the normal control such as stuck PTT. My take it's the moment you want to take a breat before kind of "committing" to the failure as originally displayed.

Strictly speaking APU start is not an additional procedure at that stage, as its use is mentioned as a note at the end of the ENG SHUTDOWN procedure, and it is not mandatory (but definitely desirable).
It should hence be started upon completion of ECAM actions.

sonicbum

25th Jan 2021, 12:42

- Flaps/slat jamm
- Overweight landing procedure
- One engine inpo (straight in Or circling approach)
- Landing gear gravity extension
- Supplementary as in emergency evacuation probable or not, rnav, rvsm, etops...

Just remember the acronym FOOLS, this list should give you a good headstart.

ECAM then QRH then FCOM then MEL (to help you decision).
This is the ECAM discipline, same thing for the past 33 years. You don't want to be in the middle of the QRH with an open ECAM (unless this is directed by the ECAM itself, with "Procedure so and so.... APPLY")

iggy

25th Jan 2021, 13:32

Iggy, genuine question. Is the suggestion to apply those before the first read of the STS page?

No, after status.

iggy

25th Jan 2021, 13:32

I am afraid none of those procedures are considered before STATUS.

No, that is to be considered after the status.

iggy

25th Jan 2021, 13:34

ECAM then QRH then FCOM then MEL (to help you decision).
This is the ECAM discipline, same thing for the past 33 years. You don't want to be in the middle of the QRH with an open ECAM (unless this is directed by the ECAM itself, with "Procedure so and so.... APPLY")

Jesus!! :O

No, that is to be considered after the status!!

Okay okay, I'm a moron and I didn't read the OP question properly! :}

sonicbum

25th Jan 2021, 14:06

Jesus!! :O

No, that is to be considered after the status!!

Okay okay, I'm a moron and I didn't read the OP question properly! :}

Nah don't worry, we are all here only to try and piss each other off :p

Uplinker

25th Jan 2021, 14:59

At a previous company, we worked through initial ECAM and any OEBs. If it is an EFATO, follow any emergency turn as appropriate, then level off to clean up, then climb to MSA. Continue ECAM as you climb; working through the system pages. When you get to STATUS, pause to run the after take-off/climb checklist, if applicable. Then read STATUS fully and apply any STATUS actions, computer resets, MEL, or QRH actions and relevant operational tasks. The latter could be engine bleed(s) and pack(s), for example and could include starting the APU. Although we often did bleed and APU actions as we processed the relevant system pages.

Then you are into TDODAR. :ok:

FlightDetent

25th Jan 2021, 20:45

@uplinker, #askingforafriend
At a previous company, we worked through initial ECAM and any OEBs. Was there any plan at the said company to eventually change for OEB first and then the ECAM? I understand the chance to do system resets in lieu of computer resets and that streamlined before the STS was not taken at many places around the globe. But doing the OEBs in proper sequence got a good grip elsewhere ... :}

Now asking for myself, when did you guys manually turn off the supplementary HYD pump after EFATO on the 330?

sonic Did not know that note at the end of ENG SHUTDOWN FCOM existed. This places the APU launch at the same moment where the A330 shows it on the STS page.

I personally used to do it with the crowd when reviewing the ELEC page, and still would if suggested by the colleague at that point, but the A330 ECAM got me thinking to move somewhere else and proper. Ended doing as described, not aligned with the note.

saviboy

25th Jan 2021, 21:07

CrazyStuntPilot

26th Jan 2021, 00:38

How about:
Dispatched with STBY AOA inoperative on MEL. During flight, one of the other AOA probe heater fails (CAPT of F/O). Since the ECAM does not handle a dual AOA heater failure (unless equipped with FWC software standard F10 or later), when reaching STATUS, apply the QRH DOUBLE AOA HEAT FAILURE.

FlightDetent

26th Jan 2021, 00:41

Those are computer resets, just sayin'... could be two different things.

You seem to be looking for exact items, I'm afraid there aren't any. It would be spelled out somewhere, guess one can read that as in:
any additional items you can think of at the moment. Just as the answer to "Ready for status" shoud be IMHO an implicit no. At that point, you do not know what you may be missing yet and need time to think. First, come back to whatever you had been doing before the master caution. Resume normal workflow - oh normal check-list (that's systematic, so spelled out already). Perhaps FL 100 items? Any daring relevant side-effect of an active MEL item?

Some other imminent ideas
- call Tel Aviv Identification
- activate engine anti-ice
- stop any fuel re-balancing transfer
- inform ATC "unable RVSM due equipment"
- make a position report
- wait for your colleague to return from the toilet
- ask the ATC for a pre-cautionary descent or reduced climb ceiling
- plug the charger into the EFB which just started showing LO-BATT
- return the call from the F/A you cancelled
..
..
..

My guess that's what they meany by "any". The foreseen items are already embedded in the ECAM action lines or STS.

vilas

26th Jan 2021, 01:59

Between ECAM and STATUS is a good breather to address issues that were interrupted like a C/L or actions that may get rid of the ECAM itself or ask for a hold etc. In ECAM application there are a few local variations. As a few start APU at electrical page and some others only push the APU master but not start it yet so when you remove status page APU page stares at you reminding you to start it. Some attempt engine restart only after STATUS is completed as invariably even after a successful restart you need to land back or go to takeoff alternate.

pineteam

26th Jan 2021, 02:23

At Status, We stop Ecam and check the “CAR”.
Checklist? Apu? Reset?
Then Continue Ecam.

StudentInDebt

26th Jan 2021, 02:38

At that point I was taught to use the SCORE mnemonic - STOP ECAM, Normal Checklist (eg after take-off), OEBs and Reset/Relight, continue ECAM.
In the engine failure case I ask for the APU to be started when reviewing the ELEC page.

pineteam

26th Jan 2021, 02:54

We also used to start APU at the Electric page but then it was changed to start it only when reaching Status page. Not sure why tho.

vilas

26th Jan 2021, 03:53

We also used to start APU at the Electric page but then it was changed to start it only when reaching Status page. Not sure why tho.
Actually APU start as said before comes after STATUS is completed when you refer to FCOM where it says "If available APU may be started". But normally in the simulator(Only place where it happens) nobody reads FCOM and you forget to start it. So most do it at elec page though not strictly an Airbus procedure.

pineteam

26th Jan 2021, 04:04

Actually APU start as said before comes after STATUS is completed when you refer to FCOM where it says "If available APU may be started". But normally in the simulator(Only place where it happens) nobody reads FCOM and you forget to start it. So most do it at elec page though not strictly an Airbus procedure.

Ok thanks Vilas. I did not remember reading this on the FCOM. I will have a look. Happy to see that we follow SOP.

sonicbum

26th Jan 2021, 07:30

Ok thanks for all the replies.

System reset wasn't part of my question because there is a list of resets in the QRH so I never wondered about those.

So if APU shouldn't even be considered before reading STS, what is left? Eng. relight? nothing else?
I was thinking about balancing Fuel if a Fuel imbalance was noted as part of the Eng. relight ECAM.
But to be honest, I'm not sure I would do it before reading STS. I am just trying to find examples of "additional proc's" one would do BEFORE reading STS. And outside of eng. relight, I cant find anything.
If there is only one applicable procedure, why the use of "any" the FCTM? ("any applicable procedure")

Thanks again for the discussion.

Imagine tomorrow an OEB comes up which tells You : in case of failure XYZ apply the ECAM initial actions and in addition do this and that. When reaching the STATUS you would continue with whatever other actions you need to perform. I remember many many years ago on the A321 we had specific OEBs for fuel pumps failures and in some circumstances we had to perform extra actions dictated by the OEBs once the primary ECAM actions were performed. This is just an example.

FlightDetent

26th Jan 2021, 07:44

At that point I was taught to use the SCORE mnemonic - STOP ECAM, Normal Checklist (eg after take-off), OEBs and Reset/Relight, continue ECAM. When was this? In some specific cases, it's ESSENTIAL to apply OEB's before any displayed ECAM , and so the book says. Airbus even did a FWC modification that allows a properly configured ship to display a "CHECK QRH/OEB" instead of the action lines to prevent applying them.

How come in 2021 we still have techniques to do ECAM, stop - N/CL, OEB, reset - continue STS? I got trained the same way in 2005 and even then it was not the proper sequence, but the correct guidance not that visible. Since about 2008 the books cannot be any clearer.

It is kind of astonishing, my experience is that 2 full generations passing (cadet->TRI) is almost not enough, such is the inertia. :)

Check Airman

26th Jan 2021, 11:44

What’s amazing is that we have OEBs at all. I don’t see why instead of publishing a bit of paper, they don’t send out an update to the FWC / ECAM database, similar to the AIRAC.

CrazyStuntPilot

26th Jan 2021, 14:42

Another possible "procedure" at STATUS: when an OEB affects the STATUS only. There are no current case of an OEB affecting STATUS only, but it is a possibility, as hinted at by the OEB reminder function which may be either on the procedure itself, the procedure and the status, or the status only. In any case, check the OEBs before calling "ECAM Actions". When reaching STATUS, if the OEB (checked previously) affects STATUS messages only, apply the OEB procedure.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/728x563/oeb_status_fb2decb56bddac9f4997eeb5544f2142fa67f6e4.png

saviboy

26th Jan 2021, 15:56

Imagine tomorrow an OEB comes up which tells You : in case of failure XYZ apply the ECAM initial actions and in addition do this and that. When reaching the STATUS you would continue with whatever other actions you need to perform. I remember many many years ago on the A321 we had specific OEBs for fuel pumps failures and in some circumstances we had to perform extra actions dictated by the OEBs once the primary ECAM actions were performed. This is just an example.

Hi thanks for the reply.

Actually, OEB's now have to be considered before starting ECAM. Though, the OEB may direct you to do something only when reaching the STS page.

pineteam

27th Jan 2021, 04:38

All the OEBs I have seen before were always applicable before initiating the ECAM. Our QRH states: « The flight crew must disregard the ECAM procedure and/or Status of the Ecam alerts listed in the « Ecam Entry » field and must apply the QRH’s OEB procedure instead »

Now it’s a good time to be on A320 Family. No more OEBs in our fleet now except a simple one on the NEOs (OEB 57).

Uplinker

27th Jan 2021, 09:22

@uplinker, #askingforafriend
Was there any plan at the said company to eventually change for OEB first and then the ECAM?

I don't know what the company plan was, but the general thinking was that actioning any relevant OEBs might reduce the list on the STATUS page, which in turn would make TDODAR easier. Obviously with something like an EFATO you wouldn't ask "any OEBs?" before performing the initial ECAM actions.

Now asking for myself, when did you guys manually turn off the supplementary HYD pump after EFATO on the 330?

Initial ECAM actions, failed engine secure, cleaned up and climbed to MSA while working through the system pages; then a check of the ECAM MEMO at that point was useful and would show if a STBY pump etc. was still running. i.e. check your ECAM MEMO and run any relevant normal checklists when clean and safe, just before STATUS.

*your QRH and company SOPs take precedence*

Uplinker

27th Jan 2021, 09:36

What’s amazing is that we have OEBs at all. I don’t see why instead of publishing a bit of paper, they don’t send out an update to the FWC / ECAM database, similar to the AIRAC.

It is a big job to update and verify the FMGS/ECAM data bases, and not one to be taken lightly. A navigation download takes 20 mins or more involving floppy discs on older A320 family, and it can fail, requiring the process to be repeated. Not ideal during a turnaround - having engineers in the cockpit and unable to access the FMGS for that length of time. (no disrespect to engineers).

The new data base has to be checked and cross checked for errors by the approved provider, so is not something you would want to do or have to afford for every change.

OEBs are supposed to be temporary until a permanent fix is worked out for engineering to implement.

CaptainMongo

27th Jan 2021, 13:14

What’s amazing is that we have OEBs at all. I don’t see why instead of publishing a bit of paper, they don’t send out an update to the FWC / ECAM database, similar to the AIRAC.

5-6 years ago on approach the gear wouldn’t come down (A320). Like any good Captain, I asked the FO what the hell he did!

FO then proceeded to follow the ECAM. I said no, that’s a “special” (thats what we call OEB’s) I told him to go to the QRH for the procedure. He started with that, and I said that doesn’t sound right either, then I remembered the “specials” were only published in the Flight Manual. He opened the flight manual and we applied that procedure - the gear came down on the third try.

I’ll be honest, when the gear didn’t come down my stress level went through the roof - landing gear up wasn’t and isn’t on my “to do” list. Normally we want the Captain to relinquish control of the aircraft and radios to the FO in a non normal with the Captain handling the checklist. In this case I didn’t do that and I believe that allowed me to think more clearly about what I remembered the special to be and that what the FO was reading the first two times didn’t correspond to that memory.

Long story to say I don’t like OEB’S either, I get why they are necessary but I don’t like them.

vilas

27th Jan 2021, 16:14

In dynamic environment something doesn't work properly or as designed. OEB is temporary fix or a work around till a permanent solution is found to remove it. But OEB reminder function is a good help so you don't have to remember it.

sonicbum

27th Jan 2021, 17:24

Hi thanks for the reply.

Actually, OEB's now have to be considered before starting ECAM. Though, the OEB may direct you to do something only when reaching the STS page.

Correct, that’s what I have written above. You could be instructed by an OEB to apply the ECAM and some additional procedures in the OEB upon reaching the status. It’s just an example anyway.

sonicbum

27th Jan 2021, 17:31

5-6 years ago on approach the gear wouldn’t come down (A320). Like any good Captain, I asked the FO what the hell he did!

FO then proceeded to follow the ECAM. I said no, that’s a “special” (thats what we call OEB’s) I told him to go to the QRH for the procedure. He started with that, and I said that doesn’t sound right either, then I remembered the “specials” were only published in the Flight Manual. He opened the flight manual and we applied that procedure - the gear came down on the third try.

I’ll be honest, when the gear didn’t come down my stress level went through the roof - landing gear up wasn’t and isn’t on my “to do” list. Normally we want the Captain to relinquish control of the aircraft and radios to the FO in a non normal with the Captain handling the checklist. In this case I didn’t do that and I believe that allowed me to think more clearly about what I remembered the special to be and that what the FO was reading the first two times didn’t correspond to that memory.

Long story to say I don’t like OEB’S either, I get why they are necessary but I don’t like them.

The good old landing gear not downlocked OEB 44 :) A colleague had it and it took him about 30 secs after the recycle to get it down (of a max of 2 min). It surely did feel like half an hour !

Check Airman

28th Jan 2021, 02:53

5-6 years ago on approach the gear wouldn’t come down (A320). Like any good Captain, I asked the FO what the hell he did!

FO then proceeded to follow the ECAM. I said no, that’s a “special” (thats what we call OEB’s) I told him to go to the QRH for the procedure. He started with that, and I said that doesn’t sound right either, then I remembered the “specials” were only published in the Flight Manual. He opened the flight manual and we applied that procedure - the gear came down on the third try.

I’ll be honest, when the gear didn’t come down my stress level went through the roof - landing gear up wasn’t and isn’t on my “to do” list. Normally we want the Captain to relinquish control of the aircraft and radios to the FO in a non normal with the Captain handling the checklist. In this case I didn’t do that and I believe that allowed me to think more clearly about what I remembered the special to be and that what the FO was reading the first two times didn’t correspond to that memory.

Long story to say I don’t like OEB’S either, I get why they are necessary but I don’t like them.

We have a similar setup where "normally" the FO will fly, but it's up to the CA to decide ultimately. Glad it worked out for you. I'd have thought being PM would give you more clarity, but it's all situation-dependent, now isn't it?

hans brinker

28th Jan 2021, 04:39

We have a similar setup where "normally" the FO will fly, but it's up to the CA to decide ultimately. Glad it worked out for you. I'd have thought being PM would give you more clarity, but it's all situation-dependent, now isn't it?

Can still remember the debrief after one of my first recurrent rides as a Captain. Very small company, not clearly defined SOPs. Every emergency in the SIM “I said: you have control”. Examiner wondered if I was afraid to fly and I answered “I know we can both fly, but I have the responsibility to fix the problem”. It works for me.

Check Airman

28th Jan 2021, 13:07

I quite like the system- even if it’s not a full on emergency. It really frees up the CA’s brain cells. As we saw yesterday though, some situations are unique, so I think it’s important that we retain the ability to use discretion.

CaptainMongo

28th Jan 2021, 14:41

We have a similar setup where "normally" the FO will fly, but it's up to the CA to decide ultimately. Glad it worked out for you. I'd have thought being PM would give you more clarity, but it's all situation-dependent, now isn't it?

I was PF, we were flying into an airport with some terrain, coordinating the go around with tower was a goat rope (You want to do what? Why? Where?) Further coordination with approach control was bothersome but not as bad as with tower. Of course fuel was an issue, probably more of a self imposed issue, we had about :40 mins of loiter left. Transferring control didn’t seem like a good idea time during that period. I also didn’t want to delay starting the procedure because of my self imposed fuel deadline. (Sounds like a bunch of excuses, but that is what was happening and what I was thinking)

I agree however that in virtually all circumstances transferring aircraft control to the FO is the appropriate course of action during a non normal.

fab777

29th Jan 2021, 16:34

Now asking for myself, when did you guys manually turn off the supplementary HYD pump after EFATO on the 330?.
.

If you are about to land soon, no need to switch it off. If not, you have time to review the FCOM procedure, which will instruct you to do it. That is what I have been taught.

FlightDetent

29th Jan 2021, 20:01

Thanks, that's very coherent with sonicboom 's answer for APU on the 320: Wait until the book tells you to.

saviboy

29th Jan 2021, 21:36

I was PF, we were flying into an airport with some terrain, coordinating the go around with tower was a goat rope (You want to do what? Why? Where?) Further coordination with approach control was bothersome but not as bad as with tower. Of course fuel was an issue, probably more of a self imposed issue, we had about :40 mins of loiter left. Transferring control didn’t seem like a good idea time during that period. I also didn’t want to delay starting the procedure because of my self imposed fuel deadline. (Sounds like a bunch of excuses, but that is what was happening and what I was thinking)

I agree however that in virtually all circumstances transferring aircraft control to the FO is the appropriate course of action during a non normal.

The problem with that approach (FO PF and Captain manages the abnormal) is that Fo's are less proficient at managing ECAM and if/when the right DU's are inop, FO has to manage the ECAM with very limited experience.
I still think following manufacturer guidance is better in that case. Just my opinion.

Check Airman

30th Jan 2021, 01:18

CaptainMongo

30th Jan 2021, 12:43

The problem with that approach (FO PF and Captain manages the abnormal) is that Fo's are less proficient at managing ECAM and if/when the right DU's are inop, FO has to manage the ECAM with very limited experience.
I still think following manufacturer guidance is better in that case. Just my opinion.

Like you, at my outfit we are paid to follow our company guidance. We write our own manuals. Now one could argue why do that when the OEM’s write manuals but for some long forgotten reason (our company has been in continuous passenger carrying operation for nearly 100 years) it’s just the way we do it.

As I said in my earlier post the preferred method of handling a non normal, according to our manuals, is for the Captain to transfer aircraft and radio control to the FO. It’s the “preferred” method. I prefer it, I teach new Captains to prefer it, however in this case I preferred not to do that for the reasons I listed.

sonicbum

30th Jan 2021, 12:46

Every flight is different and every crew is different in terms of proficiency levels and skills, therefore there is not a one size fits all type of solution but task sharing has to be decided on a day to day or failure to failure basis. What works today with crew AB and a specific combination of wx/failures might not work tomorrow for crew BC in a different scenario.

EI-PAUL

30th Jan 2021, 17:16

Hello everyone,

Per Airbus FCTM, when reaching the STS page, the crew should consider any normal C/list, or any additional procedure as applicable.
Apart from APU start, engine relight if no damage, what other checklists could be considered?
thank you in advance.

In my mind, I built this general definition of additional procedure:
Any procedure/information - other than a QRH summary - is considered necessary to consult after the ECAM status has been completed and understood.

Even if it is necessary to have a structured and disciplined failure management:
- fly, navigate, communicate
- start ECAM / QRH procedure
- Complete the status and understand its consequences
- Consider the reset, check-lists, additional procedures ...
however, the additional procedures cannot have anything prescriptive; each of us, in fact, has different needs due to the level of experience, knowledge, and time available depending on the situation we have to deal with.

An excellent way to understand the concept is to practice some chair-flying with failures in which you must think a bit “out of the box” in regards to finding the information you need to make a decision. Here is a non-exhaustive list, as you can play finding plenty of different combinations:
Double FCU fault - double FWC fault - many of the electrical failures ...

I hope this helps a bit.

saviboy

30th Jan 2021, 20:09

Do the Captains get extra training at your airline?

In terms of abnormal management, they do since the FO almost never gets a chance to practice ECAM.

FlightDetent

31st Jan 2021, 04:23

I hope this helps a bit.Your sequence seems out of order, hm? Namely, what comes before STS review.

Check Airman

31st Jan 2021, 04:53

In terms of abnormal management, they do since the FO almost never gets a chance to practice ECAM.

That’s a very easy problem to fix. The instructor just needs to say “CA, your decision will be for the FO to handle the ECAM on this one.”

At all the companies I’ve flown for, both pilots are assessed on handling non-normals, as PF and PM at each training event. I imagined that that was pretty standard.

EI-PAUL

31st Jan 2021, 08:35

Your sequence seems out of order, hm? Namely, what comes before STS review.
Hi flightDetent,
You're right. Reading my post now, I realize that I have reversed the last two points of the sequence, obviously considering reset, checklists, and additional procedures come before the status review.
My apologies, in particular to saviboy, if I have caused further confusion on the subject. Nevertheless, the reccomendation not to treat additional procedures too prescriptively and practice some chair flying with some ECAM trainer and certain failures or combinations of them to start mastering this concept and enhance ECAM handling remain valid in my opinion.

Nick 1

31st Jan 2021, 21:45

You gotta love those electric planes...😀

saviboy

1st Feb 2021, 21:12

That’s a very easy problem to fix. The instructor just needs to say “CA, your decision will be for the FO to handle the ECAM on this one.”

At all the companies I’ve flown for, both pilots are assessed on handling non-normals, as PF and PM at each training event. I imagined that that was pretty standard.

Strangely, it is not the case at my company. So even if, as an instructor, I often offer or even make time for the Fo to get a chance to practice his/her ecam skills, it is not what is normally done. Therefore, (one could say, logically,) FO's are usually weaker at ECAM management.

Check Airman

2nd Feb 2021, 02:49

Strangely, it is not the case at my company. So even if, as an instructor, I often offer or even make time for the Fo to get a chance to practice his/her ecam skills, it is not what is normally done. Therefore, (one could say, logically,) FO's are usually weaker at ECAM management.

Thank you for looking out for the professional development of your FO's and the safety of all on board. Perhaps you could convince those in charge that it's essential that both crewmembers attain the same level of proficiency, and make it a requirement. If you find yourself in an electrical emergency, you won't have the option of having the FO fly while you fix the plane.

neilki

2nd Feb 2021, 15:07

Thank you for looking out for the professional development of your FO's and the safety of all on board. Perhaps you could convince those in charge that it's essential that both crewmembers attain the same level of proficiency, and make it a requirement. If you find yourself in an electrical emergency, you won't have the option of having the FO fly while you fix the plane.
Interesting. My operator uses the PF/PM roles. Memory Items, OEB's ECAM Actions are directed by the PF who flys and talks. the PM follows ECAM & QRH...
Both seats train every six months; the LOFT events are always 2 legs.

CaptainMongo

2nd Feb 2021, 18:44

Check Airman

2nd Feb 2021, 19:54

Interesting. My operator uses the PF/PM roles. Memory Items, OEB's ECAM Actions are directed by the PF who flys and talks. the PM follows ECAM & QRH...
Both seats train every six months; the LOFT events are always 2 legs.

We do use PF/PM. Once the plane's stabilised, the FO takes the role of PF, and directs the CA to accomplish the procedures. ("I have control and ATC, ECAM actions").

saviboy

8th Feb 2021, 01:35

Thank you for looking out for the professional development of your FO's and the safety of all on board. Perhaps you could convince those in charge that it's essential that both crewmembers attain the same level of proficiency, and make it a requirement. If you find yourself in an electrical emergency, you won't have the option of having the FO fly while you fix the plane.
That's precisely the example I always use to make my point... Or an uncapacitated Captain... I will keep trying to reverse this philosophy but I am fighting against years of habits that will be hard to undo.

saviboy

8th Feb 2021, 01:43

I strongly believe either pilot should be able to handle a non-normal from the moment it presents itself until the non-normal procedure is completed. This is how we train our pilots both in our training center and when they come to the line. (And saviboy I second CheckAirman’s comments - I hope the mentoring/additional training you provide your FO’s becomes standard at your outfit)

Why do we prefer Captains to handle a non-normal? Why do Captains get paid more than FO’s? It is the intangibles Captains bring to the table - knowledge, experience, wisdom and judgement.

Captains are paid for higher level thinking. In most cases flying the airplane during a non normal is easy, working the radios is easy. The Captain shouldn’t use brain power on those low level tasks. He or she should be using their knowledge, experience, wisdom and judgment gained to be able to think three and four steps ahead to a point where the airplane is successfully recovered.

That’s not to say every FO couldn’t do that, just in most cases the FO doesn’t bring the depth and breadth of those intangibles to the table quite yet - be it experience on the airplane, in the environment, or at the airline.

What if the FO has more experience than the Captain on that specific aircraft? I rarely fly with a Captain who has more experience than me on the Airbus (notwithstanding the fact that I teach), yet I have only met one Captain who said that it would be a better idea for me to manage the ECAM and for him to fly the plane. In my airline, it is very easy and common to go from one airplane to the other. So I very often fly with Captains with a few months to a few years on the Bus. in 90% of the cases, I imagine I would do a better job at ECAM management, but simply because they were taught that "they shouldn't use brain power on those low level tasks and flying an airplane is easy", they rarely ask themselves if that situation is really true for all crew pairings.

vilas

8th Feb 2021, 12:05

Who does what cannot be based on individual opinion no matter how correct it sounds. It depends on manufacturer's recommendations, company policy and the general experience level of the new recruit into the right hand seat. Equal competence in both seats is a desired state but not always the case. Most places a copilot is inducted with a few hundred hours and he will take time to reach that. Besides if Airline lays down a policy it cannot be brushed aside because should an incident occur the regulator will treat as violation. Forget QZ8501, in case of Atlas handing over a perfectly normal aircraft to FO resulted in a crash. Off course the Capt is supposed to hand over doing head down work. Coming to ECAM online few lucky ones will get to do it. Most will retire with sim experience. Every line pilot cannot have his way of doing things. There has to be standardization. Coming to FO having more experience Jetstar had an incident where the more experienced FO was making a mistake and the capt who was PM out of respect for tmore experience and being acquainted didn't intervene. A case of reverse gradient didn't help.