Brexit and the Aviation industry

[NutLoose]

A brief summary of the deal is out,

Heading Two – Aviation

Title I – Air transport

99.The Agreement builds on existing precedent and sets out the arrangements for the operation of air transport services between the UK and the EU. UK airlines that are majority owned and controlled by UK and/ or EU/EEA/EFTA nationals at the end of December 2020 may continue to operate air transport services between the UK and the EU. EU airlines that are majority owned and controlled by EU/EEA/EFTA nationals may also continue to operate air transport services between the UK and the EU.

100. The Agreement provides operational flexibilities for UK and EU airlines. For example, UK airlines may lease aircraft and crew from UK or EU airlines and other providers to operate air transport services between the UK and the EU. UK airlines will also have extensive opportunities to cooperate with other airlines to offer a wide range of tickets to consumers.

101. The Agreement reflects the shared ambition of both the UK and the EU to cooperate in future, including commitments for continued cooperation and consultation on air traffic management, aviation security and consumer protection.

102. The Agreement also sets out the conditions under which the operation of air transport services between the UK and EU would not be permitted. Grounds for such action include reasons of aviation safety and security.

Title II - Aviation safety

103. The Agreement is largely in line with precedent and sets out a framework for cooperation on aviation safety, and a process for agreeing Annexes to the agreement that will facilitate recognition of UK and EU certificates, approvals and licences. Areas where the UK and EU could agree Annexes in future include: monitoring of maintenance organisations; personnel licences and training; operation of aircraft; and air traffic management.

104. The airworthiness Annex to the Agreement sets out the conditions for the UK and EU to recognise each other’s aeronautical products and designs. For example, minor changes and repairs to aeronautical products and designs that are approved in the UK will be automatically accepted by the EU. In addition, the Annex foresees the possibility of the EU extending their scope of automatic recognition of UK aeronautical products and designs once it gains confidence in the UK’s capability for overseeing design certification.

105. The Annex also provides for the recognition of production certificates and regulatory oversight. For example, UK production certificates and oversight will be automatically recognised by the EU providing that the relevant aeronautical products were subject to UK oversight before the end of December 2020.


https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/948093/TCA_SUMMARY_PDF.pdf

[osborne]

As expected, UK airlines have lost their right to operate between any two points in the EU

[sprite1]

Thanks for that. Basically, the status quo then!

[Less Hair]

What will happen to IAG, being EU based, and BA?

[ollie135]

osborne

I hope that is mutual?

[armagnac2010]

Yes, it is, a major blow to all EU airlines serving UK domestic routes. They won't survive.

[Mcflyer101]

Well put! Why would Lufthansa want to fly between LHR and GLA? However those double drop legs of UK charter carriers are over.

[FlyingStone]

There shouldn't be an issue, as no passengers would both start and finish their journey in the EU.

[PilotLZ]

armagnac2010

I know. There were an awful lot of Air France, KLM, Aegean, LOT and TAROM aircraft flying UK domestic routes. They didn't deserve such a devastating blow, but what can we do about it, life is unfair.

On a serious note, the LCCs did the right thing back in the day by separating their UK businesses into UK AOCs.

[Feathers McGraw]

After 4.5 years surely the people managing these airlines would have anticipated this and made their plans accordingly? I know that 2020 has had a huge impact on everyone, but the world continues to rotate.

[PaulH1]

Some did. Easyjet Europe has an Austrian AOC so will be able to fly point to point in Europe.

[SMT Member]

The present status of the UK having left EASA is, that the UK CAA recognises and accepts EASA competence, but not the other way around. It's a major pain in the administrative posterior, not least knowing it's only a matter of time before EASA adopts mutual recognition. So thousands of aviation business, who are already struggling, will be wasting thousands of man-hours on quality and administration changes that will almost certainly be rolled back within a year but probably a lot sooner.

Bonkers.

[Jet II]

osborne

Are there any UK airlines doing point to point in Europe outside of the UK? - Jet 2?

[Jet II]

PaulH1

Easy have an issue in that less that 50% of their ownership is EU/EEA/EFTA nationals - they have proposed that UK shareholders lose voting rights but I'm not sure if that is enough to meet EU rules.

[CW247]

For example, UK airlines may lease aircraft and crew from UK or EU airlines and other providers to operate air transport services between the UK and the EU. UK airlines will also have extensive opportunities to cooperate with other airlines to offer a wide range of tickets to consumers.

Whilst UK airlines can lease aircraft and crew from the EU, meaning Europeans can work out of UK bases on behalf of their European companies, what about Brit pilots working for European ACMIs, do they get the same automatic (employment) right? As feared, I don't see this matter being addressed at all. Thoughts?

[SWBKCB]

Don't european pilots only have the same employments rights as any other European worker?

[sprite1]

I must’ve read a different set of regs to many here. I’m not seeing the issue. It’s largely the status quo, no?

To those of you making Armageddon type posts, what is the problem here? BA can wet lease in an Air France plane and crew if they want. Just like before Brexit.

As already mentioned, there’s no significant, if any at all, market for non-U.K. airlines to operate solely U.K. domestic routes. Any EU airline that wants to do that, will have to get a U.K. AOC. Which already happens; Ryanair, Aer Lingus, Wizz, Norwegian, etc.

Also, IAG is not an airline. Someone mentioned that as a particular issue. Iberia is permitted too fly MAD-LHR under these new regs just like pre-Brexit.

These regs even say personnel licensing will be recognised etc.

Again, other than minor rule tweaks just to make this Brexit deal look real and genuine, what is the issue here with these new rules?

[Non Linear Gear]

I assume we will find out exactly if our licences will be recognised or not. I do believe it is been said the a wide range of professional qualifications will not be. Only time will tell.

[FlyingStone]

It’s largely the status quo, no?

Yes, except for: UK leaving EASA, UK not being able to operate intra-EU flights and vice versa for EU airlines, UK issued licences not being valid on EASA aircraft (while vice versa will be valid for at least the next 2 years) and a huge cost incurred by everyone, from policy makers through regulators to operators, all of which will undoubtedly be passed on to either the taxpayers or consumers, as appropriate.

But other than that, yes, nothing is really changing.

[Driver airframe]

103. The Agreement is largely in line with precedent and sets out a framework for cooperation on aviation safety, and a process for agreeing Annexes to the agreement that will facilitate recognition of UK and EU certificates, approvals and licences. Areas where the UK and EU could agree Annexes in future include: monitoring of maintenance organisations; personnel licences and training; operation of aircraft; and air traffic management.

Says EASA will continue to recognise UK Licenses or have I missed something ?

[Denti]

These regs even say personnel licensing will be recognised etc.


Umm. No, that is not what it says. It says it is an area where there could be, at some undefined point in the future, a possibility to recognize licenses. Once the UK CAA has a proven track record of being a fully fledged regulator and authority. Usually that takes a few years.

[FlyingStone]

Says EASA will continue to recognise UK Licenses or have I missed something ?

Could agree in the future.

As of January 1, 2021 licenses and certificates issued by UK will no longer be valid in EASA Member States and will be treated as a third country licences and certificates. Accordingly, as of that date a UK issued ATPL cannot be used to operate aircraft of commercial operators under oversight of EASA Member States.

As of January 1, 2021 in order to obtain a Part-FCL licence from an EASA Member State, UK licence holders must follow a conversion process as per Commission Delegated Regulation (EU) No 2020/723.

[Dannyboy39]

To say that EASA states do not recognise U.K. CAA as a competent authority under this ruling is simply laughable.

[Miles Magister]

I think one needs to read the full text before passing learned comment

[Mcflyer101]

Dannyboy39

The problem is not the status quo. Of course the UKCAA is mirroring EASA rules at the moment. However in the future it will divert from the alignment and therefore it will have to be treated the same way as EASA is dealing with the FAA for example. It was the choice of the British government to leave EASA. In fact you don’t even have to be a EU member state to be part of EASA.

[Dannyboy39]

Sure, and as per the above we need to wait for the full text. It is a completely needless thing to do for the U.K. to leave EASA but I guess if it had EU in the name, the Brexiteers in Chief would’ve been crying foul. EASA being the most rigorous safety authority in the world.

I just think it’s laughable that despite the U.K. having some of the finest certifying staff in the world, a CAA Form 1 for example is not acceptable for a French MRO for instance, or now an aircraft would need to be exported from UK to EASA state and the whole airworthiness review programme started from scratch. Bureaucracy for bureaucracy sake.

I guess there may be instances (flight time directives) that the U.K. may want to divert from, but can you really imagine a Tory government doing something which helps the workers?

[Jetscream 32]

Don't think you can be EASA without being tied to ECJ.......Ergo.... off we trot to ensure UK aviation suffers and pays the price financially and administratively at every level with delays that will prevent businesses from even beginning the process as CAA will not have enough staff, experience or leadership to help UK aviation prosper.... I'm not trying to diss the CAA but after 30 years of flying, I really hope they can change their monika from 'Campaign Against Aviation' to 'Concerted Aviation Accelerator' ... We will see, but - again as others have said... The devil is in the detail and we will have to wait to interpret the exact text to see how it affects us.

European Court of Justice jurisdiction 34.The European Court of Justice (ECJ) has ultimate jurisdiction over EASA rulings. In the case of third country member states, ECJ jurisdiction operates indirectly through arbitration committees. If the ECJ decided that a EASA ruling was inapplicable or had to be modified, EASA would abide by the ECJ’s decision, and a third country member state would have to accept EASA’s modified rules.

[DaveReidUK]

Miles Magister

Indeed.

Though I suspect that there won't turn out to be much difference from the fairly dire predictions that were being made as long ago as 2017, and most recently earlier this year:

Civil Aviation Regulation - What Future after Brexit? (https://www.aerosociety.com/media/6797/raes_civil_aviation_regulation_-_what_future_after_brexit.pdf)

Civil Aerospace Aviation and Space Post Transition Period (https://www.aerosociety.com/media/13609/raes_brexit_briefing_civil_aerospace_aviation_and_space_post _transition_period_april_2020_final.pdf).

[CW247]

I ask again. With Eastern European ACMIs still allowed to provide ultra cheap services to UK airlines using their own European equipment and staff, are British employees at an even greater risk of never finding employment again? Brits will not be able to work for those ACMI providers without a visa. In theory, a UK airline can outsource 50% of its operation out to a company that doesn't need to hire Brits for those jobs. Why am I the only one getting angry about this? There is no protection for the British workforce in any of this.

[lederhosen]

Can anyone explain any other reason than the ECJ why Britain made the decision to leave EASA? The RAeS papers certainly don’t seem to support it. In the short term U.K. license holders are disadvantaged if I have understood correctly, while my EASA license is OK in the UK. Looks like there will be some jobs going at the CAA but otherwise I don’t get it. Could not the UK for example have remained an EASA member with the option to review this at some later date?

[speedtapeking]

osborne

Are there any UK airlines doing point to point in Europe outside of the UK? - Jet 2?

Dhl air is mainly point to point inside EU
as is west altlantic

goign to hit the freighters pretty hard by the look of it, the only guys in aviation that still have a job/no pay cuts or redundancies get hit via the back door....

[Big_D]

lederhosen

Page 7 of the PDF contains the answer:

https://www.conservatives.com/our-plan

[lederhosen]

Big D thanks for replying but when I click on the link it opens a document without page numbers and which does not obviously mention EASA. There is a link in it to another document with page numbers that at least on my browser do not correspond to the actual number of pages. In short can you just cut and paste the relevant text.

[ORAC]

I think one needs to read the full text before passing learned comment
Full text published by the EU this morning.

Pages 221-225 apply.

https://ec.europa.eu/transparency/regdoc/rep/1/2020/EN/COM-2020-857-F1-EN-ANNEX-1-PART-1.PDF

[Mcflyer101]

I ask again. With Eastern European ACMIs still allowed to provide ultra cheap services to UK airlines using their own European equipment and staff, are British employees at an even greater risk of never finding employment again? Brits will not be able to work for those ACMI providers without a visa. In theory, a UK airline can outsource 50% of its operation out to a company that doesn't need to hire Brits for those jobs. Why am I the only one getting angry about this? There is no protection for the British workforce in any of this.

Bojo, all spin and slogans but no substance. Reading the tabloids today you would think that this deal is the best thing since sliced bread. I think we will soon find out that people are being sold a pup!

[Denti]

I ask again. With Eastern European ACMIs still allowed to provide ultra cheap services to UK airlines using their own European equipment and staff, are British employees at an even greater risk of never finding employment again? Brits will not be able to work for those ACMI providers without a visa. In theory, a UK airline can outsource 50% of its operation out to a company that doesn't need to hire Brits for those jobs. Why am I the only one getting angry about this? There is no protection for the British workforce in any of this.

Theoretically, yes.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1126x375/b944b0ed_5055_4d85_b1a0_e56398ee7ed3_983ffb605e735df08aa8518 239bd29079f0e62c6.jpeg

[deltahotel]

DHLAir will be fine, thanks

[waito]

Just a thought, there will be 2 contracts to be considered, right? The withdrawal agreement from start of 2020 and the Trade Agreement from end of 2020. I think one needs to read both of them in conjunction. Missing a regulation in one doesn't mean it's forgotten.

[FlyingStone]

Really...? Give that remark some thought.

Sorry, English is not my native language, but I thought the term double drop refers to usually a charter flight, where airline sells tickets to two destinations on the same aircraft, so it flies from A to B, then C and then back to A, dropping and picking passengers at both B and C, but ultimately everyone travels between A and B, and A and C, and there is nobody who just takes the short local flight?

[DaveReidUK]

Full text published by the EU this morning.

Pages 221-225 apply.

https://ec.europa.eu/transparency/regdoc/rep/1/2020/EN/COM-2020-857-F1-EN-ANNEX-1-PART-1.PDF

Aviation is covered in pages 224-249: Articles AIRTRN 1-26 (Air Transport) and AVSAF 1-15 (Aviation Safety).

[Contact Approach]

Full text published by the EU this morning.

Pages 221-225 apply.

https://ec.europa.eu/transparency/regdoc/rep/1/2020/EN/COM-2020-857-F1-EN-ANNEX-1-PART-1.PDF

I can’t find a definitive answer. Anyone know?

[SWBKCB]

I ask again. With Eastern European ACMIs still allowed to provide ultra cheap services to UK airlines using their own European equipment and staff, are British employees at an even greater risk of never finding employment again? Brits will not be able to work for those ACMI providers without a visa. In theory, a UK airline can outsource 50% of its operation out to a company that doesn't need to hire Brits for those jobs. Why am I the only one getting angry about this? There is no protection for the British workforce in any of this.

I don't think this is covered only in this doc. Firstly, the UK airline will need to meet the conditions of its UK AOC - that will be down to the CAA. Secondly, unlesss there is an exemption I've not seen, aircrew will be subject to the same restrictions on working in the UK as any other non-UK national. Who flies the SWG a/c that TUI have used for years?

[autobrake3]

It is without surprise to see yet again the Brexit contingent brush aside the changes as if nothing has happened or will happen. At a stroke we are now unable to work on EASA registered aircraft with our CAA licences. We will no longer be at liberty to move and work in a European country of our choice as British passport holders. This is hugely relevant now that so many have found themselves unemployed. Bases have been reduced in size around Europe and British passport and licence holders have been passed by for redeployment in alternative European bases. Regardless of COVID, junior pilot promotion is now limited to a much reduced UK based platform. It has cost millions to rearrange aircraft registry in order to comply with operational requirements. The CAA has been chopped to bare bones with many ex employees now comfortably employed by EASA. It will therefore take years to re acquire it’s full and very expensive functionality. It’s no wonder that EASA won’t accept our licensing. It’s ironic that so many pilots who’s careers and airline’s successes have been based on European integration voted to rebuff all that made it possible in the first place.

[sprite1]

There’s definitely confusion and jumping the gun going on here.

This Annex doc can’t be so one-way as is being made out by some. If it is, that’s not ‘Europe’s’ fault but the U.K. negotiators’ fault.

Here’s hoping the wording isn’t deliberately so one-sided as to be laying the groundwork for an eventual return to the EU. That would be travesty.

One question I have (in response to some posters above) is are there many EU airlines that allow their pilots to operate under their U.K. issued EASA licence? I know Ryanair and Aer Lingus make all crews get an Ireland issued licence upon joining. I doubt a full ‘FAA to EASA’ type conversion is what is being proposed here.

[D9009]

Didn't a large number of BA/TUI/TCX/VS pilots vote to leave as a protest against EASA FTLs?

[SaulGoodman]

DHLAir will be fine, thanks

Will they?

DHL will be fine. On EI- or D- reg.
But I can hardly see G-regs flying for instance LEJ-VIT-OPO. However: LEJ-EMA-DUB on D-/EI- reg is possible. But what about LEJ-EMA-BFS? Would they allow EI-reg to fly that route? Or only G-?

this deal is definately better then no deal. But still a major ****-show

[SaulGoodman]

D9009

EASA FTL is a bare minimum. All authorities have the freedom to impose stricter FTL’s. Or companies in fact. We have much stricter planning FTL’s for instance then EASA.

[FlyingStone]

are there many EU airlines that allow their pilots to operate under their U.K. issued EASA licence?

UK licences won't be valid on EASA aircraft as of 1st January, so the answer is no.

[Denti]

EASA FTL are a minimum measure, but they are also binding and enforceable EU regulation, therefore it is legally not possible for member states to require higher limits via their authorities. Companies of course use planning limits that are to a higher safety level. That said, EASA FTL was actually a marked improvement compared to JAR FTL.

Sorry for being completely off topic here.

[SaulGoodman]

that really depends on what kind of operation you are in. EASA FTL is very generic with a bias to A-B-A passenger operation. But Denti, am I wrong in my understanding that member states could actually impose stricter FTL’s? I always thought they could as long as they met the minimum requirements.

[D9009]

EASA FTL is a bare minimum. All authorities have the freedom to impose stricter FTL’s. Or companies in fact. We have much stricter planning FTL’s for instance then EASA.

So no need to leave then

[DaveReidUK]

Didn't a large number of BA/TUI/TCX/VS pilots vote to leave as a protest against EASA FTLs?

It depends what you mean by a "large number". I suspect that not all of the 17.4 million who voted for Brexit were pilots.

[sprite1]

UK licences won't be valid on EASA aircraft as of 1st January, so the answer is no.

Thanks. The U.K. negotiators obviously didn’t push it for their own reasons.

But just to address the point I’d made that you referenced in your quote; what EU airlines currently allow U.K. issued licence holders fly for them on their U.K. licences? I’m only aware of airlines requiring their crew to get a licence issued from the airline’s AOC issuing authority.

In other words, how many U.K. issued licence holders are flying in KLM, SAS, Aer Lingus, etc? I’m thinking none. So this Jan 1st changeover is largely arbitrary.

Maybe this affects Corporate Jet pilots more?

[wiggy]

D9009

There certainly were some Brexit voters at BA who claimed Brexit would inevitably lead to "better" FTLs, not convinced it was a "large number", but certainly some were very vocal on the issue.

[FlyingStone]

what EU airlines currently allow U.K. issued licence holders fly for them on their U.K. licences? I’m only aware of airlines requiring their crew to get a licence issued from the airline’s AOC issuing authority.

In other words, how many U.K. issued licence holders are flying in KLM, SAS, Aer Lingus, etc? I’m thinking none. So this Jan 1st changeover is largely arbitrary.


There is a whole world outside of flag carriers and large LCCs, you know. Smaller airlines and operators are normally fairly flexible when it comes to licencing, as the benefits of operating under a unified FCL authority aren't as obvious when you have 2 aircraft and 15 pilots compared to an airline operating hundreds of aircraft and employing thousands of pilots.

I do hope anyone currently operating or wishing to operate EASA aircraft in the future have secured their privilege to do so by moving their SOLI away from UK CAA.

[sprite1]

Yep, fair enough. Smaller operators and corporate jets etc. Not the big carriers.

I still don’t think the Licence transfer process will be that difficult once we’re past Jan 1st 2021.

[Denti]

that really depends on what kind of operation you are in. EASA FTL is very generic with a bias to A-B-A passenger operation. But Denti, am I wrong in my understanding that member states could actually impose stricter FTL’s? I always thought they could as long as they met the minimum requirements.
As far as i know that is not the case.

There are two levels of EU „law“, EU directives and EU regulation. Directives have to be put into national law in each member state, how they do it and if they put something on top is largely up to them. Regulations are immediately binding law in each member state, implementing regulations can be issued by each member state in a limited member, the EU regulation can not be changed however. EASA FTL i a result of an EU regulation. Companies can apply for and be granted alternate means of compliance (alt MOC), and of course companies and unions can develop much more limiting FTL schemes on their own, subject of approval by EASA (alt MOC) or the local authority.

[redsnail]

Quite a few Netjets pilots had UK CAA licences. Not just British pilots. We've had to change them to an EASA state licence, Dutch and Irish were the popular choice.
Hopefully my AME will get EASA approval other wise it's a trip to Amsterdam next year for my medical. At a guess, I'd say we had about 300 pilots with UK CAA licences.

[Youmightsaythat]

To say that EASA states do not recognise U.K. CAA as a competent authority under this ruling is simply laughable.

Best Christmas cracker joke of the year. The CAA.. 'competent'

Maybe now they are cut loose from EASA, the CAA and union will be seen by the public as either incompetent or something far more sinister... Guess we will find out in a couple of months time.

[D9009]

It depends what you mean by a "large number". I suspect that not all of the 17.4 million who voted for Brexit were pilots.
a large number of pilots are not necessarily a large number of the electorate

[Youmightsaythat]

Err ..sorry to burst your bubble...they are only effective if they are policed...they are not. That's why the CAA has never prosecuted a single airline for breaching them.
What they do when presented with evidence of blatant abuse is send internal emails stating 'get over it'. The union...really?,,' Blue pill or red pill' it's your choice.

[pilot freak]

It is a matter of time before ME3 airlines will heavily invest in UK airlines. Short term outlook, the UK will feel some pain but long term, the UK aviation industry will become stronger.

[Denti]

As someone who has suffered through an airline heavily invested into (in total around 3 billion € direct operational investment) by an ME3 airline: that might not be entirely good for both employees and customers.

[CW247]

Aaah but Brits do more licky licky bum bum with the Arabs you see (and always have done) whereas Germans were pretty new to the experience.

[Twiglet1]

EASA FTL are a minimum measure, but they are also binding and enforceable EU regulation, therefore it is legally not possible for member states to require higher limits via their authorities. Companies of course use planning limits that are to a higher safety level. That said, EASA FTL was actually a marked improvement compared to JAR FTL.

Sorry for being completely off topic here.

I hope the UK CAA don't bring back CAP371 is all I can say. EASA FTL bought a level playing field and with even fewer UK AOC's left it wouldn't be great to put them at a commercial disadvantage now. Those UK AOC's left also have the UK WTD and or Union agreements to manage the difficult parts of EASA FTL.
And Denti that's an interesting remark about JAR FTL strange that all the EU Airlines managed with it before the 'unsafe' EASA FTL came along.

[Dannyboy39]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that aircraft on the OE-reg have more flexible rules (for airlines that is) than other member states? With this a reason why some owners and operators are using this registration as a quasi flag of convenience.

[FlyingFrl]

Any one any information regarding the following?

Will it be possible to transfer a UK CAA license to an EASA License later down the road? Or does this mean all the EASA atpl exams have to be retaken?

Is it possible to have a UK CAA license and an EASA license valid at the same time? (As EASA will see the UK license as a 3rd country license?

[Banana Joe]

Dannyboy39

Very efficient CAA.

[Banana Joe]

FlyingFrl

My understanding is that after 31st March 2021 ATPL exams have to be retaken, and it will be possible to hold both UK and EASA licences. But that sounds like double the bureaucracy, double the recurrent training, double the fees.

I stand to be corrected.

[TURIN]

I ask again. With Eastern European ACMIs still allowed to provide ultra cheap services to UK airlines using their own European equipment and staff, are British employees at an even greater risk of never finding employment again? Brits will not be able to work for those ACMI providers without a visa. In theory, a UK airline can outsource 50% of its operation out to a company that doesn't need to hire Brits for those jobs. Why am I the only one getting angry about this? There is no protection for the British workforce in any of this.

You're not the only one. I got quite animated about it in a letter to my MP (Tory) a couple of years ago. I still have the reply that assured me that the UK would be remaining in EASA and there was nothing for me to worry about. Another letter will be winging its way to her as soon as the xmas cheer has worn off. :mad:

[biddedout]

On initial reading, it looks like there has been a massive fudge on ownership rules to enable the likes of BA etc to continue despite not being majority UK owned. New start-ups may need to be careful with ownership rules but there is a grandfather rights clause built in for the current players. So little change other than for the likes of Easyjet who have had to re-structure to work beyond the 3rd and 4th freedoms but for other operators there is little change so long as they have a UK AOC and UK based subsidiary. (Not sure what game Ryanair are playing).
As for UK pilots, it seems that they have been well and truly shafted. UK airlines are on their knees and HMG have made it virtually as easy as it was before for foreign operators to continue to push into UK territory. they can continue to bring their own staff with them or recruit from outside the UK, either through the new softly softly immigration system, intra company transfers or in the case of Irish Nationals via the Free Travel arrangements. As many have pointed out, HMG has managed to negotiate its way into a situation where Irish passport holders have more freedoms rights in the UK than British passport holders.:ugh: And to add insult to injury, we have had our Freedom of movement taken away so even when (if) things start to improve, British pilots have less chance of picking up contract or ACMI work. More dole time or retrain in cyber seems to be the only option for the Brits. Thanks a lot HMG.:mad:

[Denti]

And Denti that's an interesting remark about JAR FTL strange that all the EU Airlines managed with it before the 'unsafe' EASA FTL came along.
Different point of view, i guess. Back then i was a union rep and EASA, despite it’s shortcomings, was actually quite an improvement over JAR as JAR was quite a bit more relaxed and allowed airline management even worse rostering options. Of course for those coming from CAP371 the EASA rules were quite a bit worse. But in reality EASA rules were the middle ground between JAR and CAP371.

[SWBKCB]

As for UK pilots, it seems that they have been well and truly shafted. UK airlines are on their knees and HMG have made it virtually as easy as it was before for foreign operators to continue to push into UK territory.

Can you clarify this point? EU airlines used to have the same right as UK airlines to operate from the UK - how is this still as easy?

[Dark Stanley]

Love to know how DHL LUK reg aircraft and crew can continue to operate with point to point in Europe.

As far as Im aware West Atlantic, after a take over from Swift Air(Spain) were subjected to redundancies for the UK pilots and a relocation of their FedEx aircraft to the Swedish AOC. From what I’ve been told there is also a company migration of licences to transport Malta. Seems a smart move, but if someone from DHL UK can explain why it’s not I’m sure a lot of now Maltese registered pilots would be very interested.

[Driver airframe]

My understanding
On jan 1 2021 UK Licenses become ICAO . There will be a 2 year transition period for EASA Licensed pilots to fly G reg aircraft . That ends after a 2 year period . It is by no means clear what the future arrangement will be . Norwegian Airlines have a number of pilots with UK Licenses on their payroll . Many of their aircraft have EU registrations . The CAA have just appointed a CEO with no airline experience on 700 K a year . I would expect an announcement fairly soon to clarify the situation .

[lederhosen]

You would expect the CAA to be hiring hundreds of staff. But that is not the impression you get from their website, which from a quick scan seemed to be mainly looking for a range of newish looking roles, for example space mission specialists. So for UK aviators and other experts looking for a new challenge the sky is not the limit. (It looks ground based before you get your hopes up.)

Have they already found enough people at EASA or elsewhere and are ready for the brave new post Brexit world. I believe something like 200 posts were transferred to EASA. Is anybody in the know how the CAA is getting on?

[hum]

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/ryanair-cancels-flights-from-belfast-and-derry-in-row-with-uk-s-aviation-authority-1.4443246

[BONES_]

And that’s the UK CAA’s reply:

https://www.caa.co.uk/News/UK-Civil-Aviation-Authority-response-to-Ryanair-press-release/

I’m no fan of the UK CAA (au contrair!). But I can’t really fault them on this matter.

[Denti]

Nothing to do with Brexit then. According to the Brexit agreement UK airlines can still wet lease in EU crew and aircraft, EU carriers can only wet lease from EU providers, but not from UK providers. So ryanair UK can continue to wet lease within the limits set by the local authority. Having only one aircraft on the UK register just seems to be trying to take advantage of wet lease rules.

[fulminn]

hopefully UK will finally sink under its own arrogancy

[Pistonprop]

They never have so I very much doubt it!

[FlyingStone]

Denti

The Brexit agreement only covers the UK-EU flights, but not UK domestic flights or flights from UK to outside of EU.

[ATC Watcher]

From my understanding the problem is not for next week but will be in 2 years time when the transition waiver(s) ends. The future of the 50 or so UK citizens working for EASA is also an issue. , some of them carry very valuable expertise in EASA , some might want to apply for the UK CAA but the salaries are not the same and since most are there since many years , all might not want to leave their current homes in Cologne and the CAA might not want to take them all.
It would have been so much easier for everyone and made much more sense technically for the UK to remain in EASA as they could have, even with Brexit.
With this situation , decided on pure political grounds, both organizations , EASA and CAA are weakened .

[Denti]

FlyingStone

That is true for traffic rights. Leasing, as in any such agreement, is an independent chapter. As the company leasing in other crew/aircraft has to have the traffic rights, not the ACMI provider, it allows UK airlines to take advantage of the vibrant EU ACMI market, but not EU airlines to do the same with UK providers. Dry lease has no restrictions by the way.

[CW247]

The Brexit agreement only covers the UK-EU flights, but not UK domestic flights or flights from UK to outside of EU.

What are we saying then, TUI and Jet2 can engage SmartLynx/Avion to fly on their behalf from UK to Spain but not UK to Turkey?

[FlyingStone]

7. As regards leasing:
(a) the Parties shall grant each other the right for their air carriers to provide air transport services in accordance with Article AIRTRN.3 [Traffic rights] in all the following ways:
(i) using aircraft leased without crew from any lessor;
(ii) in the case of air carriers of the United Kingdom, using aircraft leased with crew from other air carriers of the Parties;
(iii) in the case of air carriers of the Union, using aircraft leased with crew from other air carriers of the Union;
(iv) using aircraft leased with crew from air carriers other than those referred to in points (ii) and (iii), respectively, provided that the leasing is justified on the basis of exceptional needs, seasonal capacity needs or operational difficulties of the lessee, and the leasing does not exceed the duration which is strictly necessary to fulfil those needs or overcome those difficulties;

The leasing bit only applies for the traffic rights set in AIRTRN.3, which only really mentions traffic between UK and the EU (and onwards journey if applicable). It does not cover the flights from UK to non-EU countries. I suspect that EU ACMIs operating for UK airlines on non-EU flights would be subject to bilateral agreements between UK and the destination country.

I'm glad the consumers will be better off, though. Less choice, more complex rules, increased operating costs that airlines wouldn't think in a million years to pass on to the ticket buyers.

[SWBKCB]

But you still need to meet the conditions of your UK AOC, as Ryanair UK are finding out.

[biddedout]

I would love to know what they thought the CAA told them two years ago. Very surprising that a well resourced company would rely on CAA best guess / advice and guidance when the CAA made it clear all along that there was much uncertainty and nothing would be certain until a deal was agreed or we left without a deal. Assuming the worst case scenario and we had crashed out, why did they think that it would be appropriate and fair on other UK operators if they were allowed to set up a UK shell company with one aircraft and then continue to operate another 60 odd on the Irish Register?
Unfortunately for Ryanair, this UK register requirement slightly upsets their finely tuned model with one common fleet, one regulator and the ability to pool resources. The last thing they need is divergence and two regulators forcing their very standardised fleet into two different mod states.

[SaulGoodman]

This one will be interesting. If RYR would not be allowed to base or operate within the UK on EI registrations how could DHL Air UK be allowed to operate G-reg’s within the EU?

[Banana Joe]

Ryanair have had their fleet registered in Poland and Malta for a couple of years now, so they are not new to working with multiple regulators.

[FlyingStone]

SaulGoodman

The agreement provides fifth freedom rights to cargo carriers, as long as start or finish of trip is in the UK (for UK carriers) or EU (for EU carriers).

[Banana Joe]

But don't DHL Air UK fly most of their routes intra-EU with trips ending in LEJ? And don't they have significant number of pilots based in LEJ?
And aren't they flying to US destinations out of BRU?

​​​​​

[SaulGoodman]

FlyingStone

exactly. Therefore I used the example of LEJ-VIT-OPO for instance, this would not be possible to my understanding using a G-reg. But LEJ-EMA-DUB should be possible on a D/EI- reg.

In my view it would make much more sense to re-register most of the DHK fleet to D-reg. But I guess they are smart enough in Bonn and have plans in place.

[king surf]

Most BA short haul Skippers voted leave.

[ICEHOUSES]

SaulGoodman

I’m not sure if DHL want all their aircraft on the D register due being at mercy of German pilot unions, this is what I’ve heard anyway no idea if it’s true.

[wiggy]

king surf

Not impossible but a citation for that please..I certainly don't remember BA or BALPA running a "which way did you vote" survey.

[king surf]

The citation is simply comments from all the FO's I fly with. They all say that almost all they have asked are leavers.

[wiggy]

Ummm... OK ..TBH I found if the subject did come up during crew debate you often got the answer that did the least to rock the boat over the next 2, 3...9 days....

On the basis of conversations I had with fellow captains and F/Os I wouldn't want to begin to even hazard a guess over which way the Long Haul vote fell.....

[Non Linear Gear]

You can say the same for engineers. The people in my last line station (regional) was 6 engineers. Even split, 3 each side. Two were ex BCAR (ex FLM/Mechs from the RAF). Their reason was to get Johnny Foriegner out of here, no more, no less. The third was a nationalist , but EASA qualified to the ticket (he went to Maggies funeral to route line watch). Other 3 were one BCAR that had worked abroad on his EASA ticket, myself (ex RAF but defo centre ground and reasons to remain was the shower we have in power now where the alternative) and the youngest guy whom was an ex farmer, done the EASA trail and was pro Europe. I never heard soveriegnty as a baseline for the decisions, it was kick Johnny out. Even if he wasn't from the EU.

[Icanseeclearly]

King surf..

That’s very odd as I left shorthaul last year after 7 years and only came across 2 or 3 skippers who voted leave, it was debated many many times during and after the referendum (and countless times since) maybe they just didn’t want to tell me? Or is it a case of playing to the audience as wiggly suggests?

[SFIM]

I read what the general validation (CAP2017) actually says..

The general validation for EASA pilots only mentions outside U.K. airspace, but the swiss pilots validation (CAP2018) mentions inside and outside...

what is the mechanism that actually allows EASA licence holders to fly G-Reg aircraft inside U.K. airspace for 2 years?

[biddedout]

I'm not sure what the mechanism is but if you listen to the recent CAA podcasts (particularly the one for AOC holders) they say that it will be OK with the CAA and all an EASA licence holder will need to do is download a covering letter from the CAA website to put in their lincence. This letter is only needed in case of a diversion and even then, only belt and braces against an over efficient inspector.

[turbine100]

From Jan 1st , the U.K. is a third country and it won’t be possible to then do a SOLI transfer. The Individual will be stuck with a U.K. license

[Banana Joe]

Now they have time until 31st March.

[BONES_]

Could you please provide a reference for your statement? Because as correctly stated by turbine100, on 1st January the UK would have left EASA. With no other bilateral agreement in place yet, licence transfers would not be possible.

https://www.easa.europa.eu/the-agency/faqs/brexit#category-aircrew-training-and-licensing-

The only reference I find about 31st March is in ORS4 no. 1453 which is unilateral and applies only to those who SOLI’ed out from UK to another EASA member state but awaiting licence issue between 1st January and 31st March.

https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalapplication.aspx?catid=1&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=10016

[sangiovese.]

I’m puzzled as to how Aer Lingus can now fly MAN to the USA from 2021 as just announced. Why would the UK allow it?

[SWBKCB]

Aer Lingus are setting up a UK registered airline to operate out of MAN. If they can meet UK and US regualtory requirements they'll be allowed to operate.

[Alex Whittingham]

SFIM, by my reading the original Statutory Instrument says that EASA licences current and valid on exit day are to be treated as if they were issued by the UK CAA, and hence valid for G reg.

SI 219 No 645 Sch 3 para 2 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2019/645/schedule/3/paragraph/2/made)

Approvals, licences and certificates

2.—(1) Subject to paragraph 3, any other licence, certificate or approval issued by the European Aviation Safety Agency or by the national competent authority of an EEA state which continues to be in force or effective on or after exit day by virtue of Part 3 of Schedule 8 to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, is—

(a) to continue to be in force or effective on and after exit day for the remainder of its validity period up to a maximum of 2 years (subject to any earlier suspension or cancellation by the CAA); and
(b) to be treated as if it were issued by the CAA.

(2) This paragraph applies only to documents issued under Regulation (EU) No 2018/1139 and EU implementing Regulations made under it.

[SFIM]

Thanks Alex, for the clarification.

what I also understood from watching the CAA webinar for AOC holders was that while type ratings (which fall under “licences”) would be covered by the general validation for 2 years even if they were revalidated (presumably by a EASA FE TRE only as things stand) that FI or FE authorisations (which fall under “certificates”) would only be recognised until the current expiry or 31-12-21, whichever comes first, but not after current expiry (if earlier) even if revalidated by an EASA examiner, which could be inconvenient for people if they expire early in 2021, the devil is in the detail....

[Driver airframe]

This gets interesting . Reading this the CAA has not said 2 years for EASA license holders to be treated as UK license holders . They have said UP to 2 years and they can cancel this anytime within this period . That means anyone who has swooped there UK licence for an EASA one in anticipation of getting 2 years may well not be able to fly G reg aircraft at the drop of a hat . From 1 jan the French are saying a UK ATPL is not recognised in France , Not even as a PPL . You have to sit various exams , have another medical , flight tests etc to fly a 2 seater . The fact you have a UK ATPL with current SEP IR , FI it’s a big non , desolee .

[Alex Whittingham]

My understanding is that the SI only covers licences, certificates and approvals valid at exit day until their expiry date, this is what "up to a maximum of 2 years" means. Also the UK CAA do not intend to maliciously suspend or cancel, this clause would only be used if a UK licence would otherwise be suspended etc. They are applying the SI quite strictly though, when it suits them, so that 'licences', which have no expiry dates will be recognised for the full two years whereas ATPL theory passes from, say, Austro Control, will not be recognised beyond exit day because the Austro authority to examine which rests on their designation as 'competent authority' for a Member State is not a 'licence, certificate or approval'. Thus candidates going for a UK licence who have so far completed their exams with Austro must switch over to the UK CAA to complete their exam series.Revenue switches back to the UK CAA.

The question of the Frenc DGAC not recognising UK issued licenses to fly French registered aircraft is separate, I think.

[Denti]

The question of the Frenc DGAC not recognising UK issued licenses to fly French registered aircraft is separate, I think.

Just european law. Certificates and licenses are generally not recognized if issued by the UK. Some limited airworthiness certificates will be recognized, licenses not at all.

[Driver airframe]

What the CAA will do and what people speculate that they will do is just that . A UK EASA Licence that next week is not recognised in The EU / DGAG but their EASA licence is recognised by the CAA is an imbalance and the CAA have the authority to make them the same unless I have mis read the section . I expect unless the DGAC / EASA concedes then all EASA licenses flying G reg will have to re apply for a CAA license and swop back . Just speculation like many other posters .

[Edgington]

SFIM

The ANO allows EASA Licence holders to continue to fly G-reg within U.K. airspace, although you are still supposed have a copy of the validation with you and your EASA licence.

[BONES_]

I’m not sure how good of a reference the UK ANO is, considering last revision was 2016!

[NutLoose]

Latest transition updates from the CAA

https://info.caa.co.uk/uk-eu-transition/?mc_cid=33900952c2&mc_eid=507d9f87ed

[Non Linear Gear]

Too late to do anything. Others whom voted for this mess I know transfered their licences to Irish and Dutch ones and thought we were mad not to do the same. Shapps and his crowd have stuffed their own.

[g1344304]

Welp, looks like I may be about to lose my job due to this stuff. I was lucky enough to be offered a cargo job in Europe in mid October, after the submission deadline for licence transfer. I applied for licence transfer straight away anyway (to IAA) but it has not come through and it will be a miracle if it does in the coming days. Im not even through line training for my new airline. Any advice on getting a third country validation or similar so I can continue to operate?

[Ascoteer]

Can someone remind me of the benefits of this again?

I assume any G-Reg bizjet charter aircraft now can't charge revenue for flights EU-EU (for example, EGLF - LFPB is chargeable, LFPB - EBBR could not be chargeable, EBBR - EGLF could?)

[fly4more]

If you work for a UK major , then most folks there don’t give a stuff about EASA. Its those who generally have plied their trade overseas, wether in Europe or further afield, that have the most to loose.

I know from personal experience, that keeping an IAA licence current while working Outside of Europe, was a simple email with a latest LPC report, sent to the IAA lic dept.

Not so with the CAA licence. Thats why I changed, and will never return.

The CAA is jobs for the old school tie and squadron boys. Old school & irrelevant.

[Non Linear Gear]

Ascoteer

I think Carbotage rules do apply.

[NutLoose]

g1344304

it says

UPDATE: All complete transfer applications received by 1 October 2020 (the CAA’s published recommended submission date) have been processed and sent to the receiving NAA. Applications submitted after that date will continue to be processed in strict date order on a reasonable endeavours basis as they will be subject to the receiving NAA accepting the application. We are currently working on new applications received in early December 2020.

If you would like to receive an automated update on the status of your application you can do so by sending an email to [email protected] [/b][b]In the subject line of your email please type ‘Medical’ for an update on your medical transfer application or ‘DOC155’ for an update on your licence transfer application. In the main body of the email please type your CAA licence reference number. [b]Please remove all other text from the email before sending.


so unless you put it in December one would assume it’s with the NAA.
from
https://info.caa.co.uk/uk-eu-transition/commercial-pilots/

[NutLoose]

What gets me is

While the agreements involve some elements of continuity, they do not constitute a replication of the UK’s regulatory arrangements as part of the EASA/EU framework and many sections of the aviation and aerospace industries will face changes after 31 December, as this microsite sets out.

We will study the detail of the new agreements and will update relevant pages of the microsite as information becomes clearer about how the new arrangements will work in practice. We will notify stakeholders of the updates through the SkyWise alert system. If you haven’t already done so, please subscribe to the EU exit category in the SkyWise system: skywise.caa.co.uk (http://skywise.caa.co.uk/)


So who was advising on the Government on the agreement? Because that reads as if the CAA had little Input into the workings of it.

[flash8]

The CAA is jobs for the old school tie and squadron boys. Old school & irrelevant.Don't get me started re the CAA. BALPA, Ditto.

[Denti]

Non Linear Gear

The treaty is quite clear, in AIRTRAN.3:

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1101x294/617a416f_55ec_411a_8af4_f7b94f14719f_0fc00734cd2e053b7ba8340 0ccfa093c4bc96cd5.jpeg
Air carriers are defined as scheduled and non scheduled operators.

[vascodegama]

NLG-or Cabotage even

[robin]

You're not the only one. I got quite animated about it in a letter to my MP (Tory) a couple of years ago. I still have the reply that assured me that the UK would be remaining in EASA and there was nothing for me to worry about. Another letter will be winging its way to her as soon as the xmas cheer has worn off. :mad:

Spot on - I have a large file of responses from my MP reassuring me that 'all will be well' and not to worry my pretty little head about things.

[g1344304]

Nut loose

I submitted in mid October when offered the job. Using the CAA's automated service the application is still showing as 'pended' with no record of dispatch. Two colleagues submitted around the same time are showing the same. I have been unable to contact anybody at the CAA or IAA as both offices are closed until the 4th Jan. if anyone can help with a more direct contact please let me know.

[Non Linear Gear]

vascodegama

Was drunk when I typed it. Cabotage rules apply.

NutLoose

Of course they haven't. Grant knows better. Maybe he has shares in the Flybe reboot waiting?

[Weathergirly]

3.5 hours left to apply for your EASA license.

[gipsymagpie]

Another little corollary of this Brexit wheeze is that LPV approaches will be withdrawn in the UK as we didn't negotiate remaining part of EGNOS. LNAV and LNAV+VNAV are unaffected.

Flyer magazine put something out a week or so ago then a statement came out from the government saying they had not managed to negotiate a deal. The CAA don't seem to think that's a problem in their statements but the gov.uk publication seems pretty firm in its warning to industry. Bit of a retrograde step?

[BizJetJock]

What utter nonsense! You obviously haven't read thegov.uk document properly, and/or don't understand how LPV works. We no longer are involved in the development of EGNOS, and UK companies after July will not have access to the SoL and Data services, which have nothing to do with LPV. So as per the CAA's notice, LPV approaches are unaffected.
I am getting fed up of all the Chicken Littles running around shrieking that the sky is falling....

[gipsymagpie]

I think you might not understand the impact of losing EWA. Without one in place, you don't get to have an LPV. Sure it technically works without an EWA (you can receive the signal) but Jeppesen et al will remove the minima / code and the FAS from the Nav data in the next update/AIRAC beyond the date specified in the gov.uk document (Jun 21).

Flyer article (https://www.flyer.co.uk/no-deal-will-mean-no-lpv-approaches/)

FLYER asked the CAA what would happen if the UK failed to negotiate access to the EGNOS service. The full reply is:

“Subject to the outcome of the ongoing negotiations, we believe that the European Satellite Services Provider (ESSP) will terminate EGNOS Working Agreements (EWA) with aerodromes, affecting the provision of LPV operations. These will then be NOTAM’d as Not Available. The LNAV or LNAV/VNAV operating minima are unaffected.

“Following termination of the EWA, UK aerodromes will not be supported by the certified service provider/ANSP, i.e. ESSP, although we understand that the signal-in-space will still be received by avionics equipment.

“The CAA is not expecting pilots to disable EGNOS within the equipment and indeed, on some models such an action may not be straight forward.

“The CAA is therefore content to let the avionics box select the highest integrity approach mode available, but any approach should only be flight-planned and flown to the LNAV minima. LPV operations are not available.”

[Banana Joe]

Will this affect also EU operators flying into UK airports?

[switch_on_lofty]

Yes because the approach belongs to the airport, not the operator.

[janrein]

Can anyone tell if the EWA termination would also concern approaches in Northern-Ireland and Gibraltar?

p.s. Noticed currently there's no LPV in either, still curious if there could be

[lederhosen]

The Flyer article certainly suggests this is more of a deal than some on here are suggesting. Increasing minimums by 50% and potentially reducing the likelihood of more instrument approaches can hardly be spin doctored as a good thing. Another article in AOPA UK's December issue left me with the impression that the UK has a lot less LPV approaches than elsewhere in Europe and that the CAA is not very enthusiastic about them.

[Contact Approach]

The CAA is interested only in Secret hand shakes and stacks of paper.

[darkroomsource]

But there is a deal, isnt there? And it covers this, doesnt it? Thats what I read on gov.uk, aviation.

[lederhosen]

Can you be a bit more specific darkroomsource?

[FlyingStone]

BizJetJock

Might want to have a read at this (https://gssc.esa.int/navipedia/index.php/EGNOS_Safety_of_Life_Service).

Nevertheless, the main objective of the EGNOS SoL service is to support civil aviation operations down to Localizer Performance with Vertical guidance (LPV).

But there is a deal, isnt there? And it covers this, doesnt it? Thats what I read on gov.uk, aviation.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/uk-involvement-in-the-eu-space-programme

[Banana Joe]

If I understand well, from 1st April 2021 a holder of an EASA license can apply for a UK CAA national license. The process is not yet defined, but does anybody know if one needs a new initial class 1 medical issued by the UK CAA?
Will the UK CAA recognise proficiency checks on the EASA license or would one need to do two proficiency checks?

Probably still uncharted territory.

[ATC Watcher]

Not going to discuss LVP and EGNOS in detail but what I am flabbergasted to see how unprepared the UK authorities are/were regarding the Brexit consequences. They had 3 years to figure out a plan , got some deal approved in the last hours before the deadline, with hundreds of subjects left open ( like the financial services ) or stones unturned like this one .
If sounds just like you own an apartment in a building then suddenly decide you do not want to pay the charges anymore, but do not tell the tenants of the consequences, and now they complain they can no longer access the elevator or leave your garbage out.
EGNOS and Galileo cost the EU taxpayer a lot of money .Now the UK decided to leave the EU and made clear what they will not fund or participate anymore on those projects , . That is very sad but do not expect to get all the full benefits afterwards for free .

The list unfortunately will not stop with EGNOS or Galileo I fear. The mere fact to have withdrawn for Erasmus and that the UK top research departments of companies will no longer be allowed to bid on the most advanced European programs if they are funded by the EU ( and almost all are) will have a profound effect on the UK (aviation) industry in 10-15 years from now...

[deltahotel]

Copy and paste from Skywise.

Following the UK exit from the European Union, the European Geostationary Navigation Overlay Service (EGNOS) will continue to be available for LPV operations, post 01 January 2021 and until further notice. This affects the use of Satellite Based Augmentation Systems (SBAS) at aerodromes with LPV lines of aerodrome operating minima displayed on their RNP Approach […]

[lederhosen]

Thanks good post deltahotel that is exactly what we were looking for.

[SaulGoodman]

Can a G-reg fly sectors within the EU?

[SWBKCB]

In simple terms, no - not on a UK AOC, possibly if leased to an EU operator.

[Denti]

Only if dry leased (without crew). For wet lease the rules are different, EU carriers can only wet lease from EU carriers, UK carriers can wet lease from UK and EU carriers.

[PilotLZ]

One small thing I'll add is that an EU carrier can actually wet-lease from a non-EU one, but only when there's no equivalent aircraft offered by an EU operator. Which will not be the case for the foreseeable future, I think. There are gazillions of aircraft of all kinds rusting on the ground everywhere.

[SWBKCB]

I think UK carriers will be in the same position.

[anothertyke]

Has anything been said about possible changes to the EU 261 regime in the brave new UK world? Is it viewed as being a well designed scheme?

[Non Linear Gear]

That will be a change of UK law to change it. It is a sodding pain in the arse for all UK operators. As an engineer, it does put additional pressure on what we think and can do, certainly if the aircraft is tech without MEL recourse. It should not but does. However it will be a change of law and I do not expect to see the Tories change it.

[Dannyboy39]

It would be a vote winner to retain the status quo.

[Non Linear Gear]

It has been damaging the regional operators for years.

[olster]

In terms of inefficiency how can one expect the not fit for purpose CAA to be anything other than unprepared for the consequences of Brexit. Like every other UK sacred cow that we are being continually assured - NHS anyone? - that are world beating. The sad truth and it is time that we had some self realisation is that we really are not as clever as we think.

[ATC Watcher]

What has control of your borders to do with EASA licenses ? Anyway the UK had always full control of its borders as it was not part of Schengen , only loophole was the Northern Ireland border , but which was there to guarantee you peace in the area via the good Friday agreement..
The UK could have easily stayed in EASA even after Brexit .

[deltahotel]

Copy and paste from one of many online journals.

Being a member of the European Aviation Safety Agency is not compatible with the UK having genuine economic and political independence,” said a DfT spokesperson in a written statement. “We will maintain world-leading safety standards for the industry, with the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) taking over these responsibilities and will continue to work with colleagues in the EU to establish a new regulatory relationship.”

I have no idea what this means!

[Non Linear Gear]

Tories want complete independence to do what they want regardless of common sense. That is what it means.

[thoughts]

I've noticed Aer Lingus are registering some aircraft in the UK to fly out of Manchester.........any idea who will fly them?

[DaveReidUK]

I'm looking forward to the feedback from those posters who have said they will take their MPs (Conservative, obviously) to task for having assured them during the Leave campaign that the UK would remain in EASA.

[Joe le Taxi]

Balpa need to be hot on demanding that the crews have a work permit/visa/RtR (or be British) if they remain based in the UK for more than 90 days. Will Balpa do that? Will they 'eck as like!

[papabravowhiskey]

Pilots with Irish citizenship would have the right to live and work in the UK ...

[Joe le Taxi]

Ah, of course, thanks PBW. On the other hand, the Irish pilots might not be too keen to convert their nice EASA licence to the CAA one (after the end of the validation period). And it's interesting that Aer Lingus are G registering the planes, rather than BA wet leasing EI reg planes from AL.

[SaulGoodman]

I don’t think that these plans were made only last week. EI probably went for worst case scenario - no deal - mitigation and deemed this the best solution. You can’t have two EASA licenses but can you have one EASA and one CAA license? In that case problem solved.

These foreign pilots might also be BALPA members...

[SWBKCB]

Think these plans are more Covid than Brexit related - MAN and other regional UK airports have lost US flights, and EI now have more a/c than they need due to the reduction in demand.

[kildress]

Joe le Taxi

What has it got to do with BA?

[Joe le Taxi]

They're both IAG. Hypothetically, an aer Lingus wet lease to BA is a way they could avoid needing to reregister the EI- planes to fly UK/US routes (not that I want to give them ideas)! So it's interesting that they didn't do that.

[kildress]

If BA wanted to fly the routes, they would surely do so with their own equipment much of which is undoubtedly presently under-utilised. It's an Aer Lingus proposal.

[Moonwalker]

One problem with having an EASA license and living in the UK is that currently there seem to be no AMEs that can carry out any EASA medicals. My one expires in the coming months and I have to travel to mainland Europe and find a doctor. Anyone aware of AMEs in the UK already being EASA approved?

[deltahotel]

Yes. I’ve seen some on another site. I’ll see if I can find it.

[deltahotel]

https://www.aeromedicalconsulting.co.uk/

Centreline Aviation Medical Services ? Keeping aviation health on the straight and level (http://www.centrelineaviationmedicalservices.co.uk/)

Try these

[V2min]

Does anybody know if the IAA are still performing licence exchanges.

I received an email on 23rd December informing me my IAA licence / Medical was ready for exchange and to send my original UK ATPL & Medical. In the same email it said the offices were now closed until 4th January.

Due to Covid-19 Ireland is in lockdown and the IAA licensing department are working from home. I can’t seem to get a reply wether the are still accepting physical licence exchanges to complete the soli process (post 31st December) and wether this is possible with the office unstaffed.

Needless to say, I’m reluctant to post my physical licence only to have no idea if or when I’ll get my IAA one sent (if at all).

Anyone managed to get in contact? Any information would be appreciated.

Thank you.

[deltahotel]

I’ve been trying to exchange licence since November. There is no one to speak to by phone and email replies take forever. It seems that they need someone at the office to generate/print/post (?) new licences and right now there’s no one there.

good luck - please post any progress on here.

[Magpie32]

On 12th December I received the email stating licence and medical were ready for dispatch. I dropped my licence and medical at the Edinburgh depot on the morning of the 14th. Received my Irish documentation back on 24th December.

[V2min]

Thank you for your reply. That sounds hopeful that the offices are manned for licence transfers even with Covid-19 restrictions.

The second part of my question is more specifically regarding licences that are ready but not physically transferred before the 31st December deadline. Anyone else with any info?

Many thanks.

[Magpie32]

You'll be fine. IAA are honouring all applications received prior to 31/12/20. EASA moved the goalposts tail end of last year which then meant the process had to be completed prior to 31/12/20, but 'completed' simply meant the new NAA had to have received you medical records etc by then. Transfers can still happen in 2021 as long as the aforementioned was achieved.

[LFS2]

I hope you’re correct, have you seen this anywhere or do you have it in writing? Currently waiting on a Spanish Licence transfer, received the medical just before Xmas.

[V2min]

Thanks Magpie32,

I read more NAA SOLI legislation and EASA Brexit documentation than I ever care to think about again, but still couldn’t find an official definition of ‘completed’.

I appreciate your feedback. It looks like my licence will be doing 100% more travelling than I will be over the coming weeks & months.

Keep well.

[woodcoc2000]

V2min

im trying to do the physical exchange as well from UK FCL to IAA. I sent my license just after Xmas (timing at employer request), the courier couldn’t deliver as office shut on Monday 4 Jan. I email asking if office is actually shut (maybe wrong address or something) and the auto reply back then said offices all shut due Covid, and licensing staff working from home. I work in eu on eu airplane. My license did get delivered to IAA headquarters the next day. but it would appear someone needs to go in and physically press print.

Surely this can’t be right? I hope I’m wrong. Surely this should be able to be accomplished through home working?.

when I phone I get receptionist only who directs you to email address.

I think the volume of emails and phone calls they receive would decrease if they found a way like everyone else has of getting licenses to people. Digital would be lovely.

this is causing proper stress to me and my company. I’ve done my bit, started the SOLI process the minute I signed contract for new job in August after being made redundant.

[Alex Whittingham]

There isn't a definition of 'completed', and what there is from EASA is only advisory. Member State NAs are free to take whatever view they like of anything not covered either by implementing rules or AMCs (and so much isn't), hence the lack of information and varying positions. Last time I spoke to the IAA they were taking the view that Magpie reports above, that 'completed' means 'have received medical records'. Other NAAs - who knows?

[Runway Change]

Does anyone know what might be /is happening to the DHL UK base in Leipzig as a result of Brexit?

[kontrolor]

nobody knows as UK has left customs union as well and all packages are due customs now....

[deltahotel]

Runway Change. No changes.

[woodcoc2000]

IAA

further to my post just above, #182, my license is enroute to me from IAA. So during this latest lockdown they have received UK license, issued IAA one and sent it out.

latest auto reply to an email this AM says office “is open and post may be delivered to our address”.

they don’t seem to be able to send out digital copies although they don’t actually say this.

my guess is they have a couple of things on at the minute.

Who would like to be a fly on wall at CAA when all these SOLI outs from UK over the years head back towards UK in April when they start giving us all our UK licenses back again 😂

[deltahotel]

woodcoc. Well done. Can I assume your email was to [email protected]?

[woodcoc2000]

deltahotel

I always seemed to deal with the same person at IAA. So although I have sent emails to the general licensing email it has been more fruitful emailing whoever it is that has sent you emails in the past if that makes sense.

[Banana Joe]

How long did it take to have your license issued and sent from the IAA?
​​​​​

[kendrick47247]

A few days for me

[woodcoc2000]

Banana Joe

yes it seems IAA still getting things done. My uk license got delivered to them, exchanged and IAA one sent out all during lockdown. Still not in my hands but on its way. I’m not sure now is the best time to transfer license unless you really need to.

if there were ever a time for digital licenses to be sorted now is the time. Even the Spanish have set this up recently due to Covid. I’ve asked IAA for digital or scanned copy but not response.

[deltahotel]

One big holdup can be (is) the time it takes for the NAA to respond to your request to send licence info and transfer medical records.

[Flightlevel001]

Has anyone who applied to the IAA for SOLI in October/Nov, heard anything at all? Just wondering how far along they've got...

[deltahotel]

It’s very slow. You could check with your NAA (uk?) to see if they’ve been asked to send stuff and if so where they are in that process.

[Flightlevel001]

I applied in SEP, CAA sent the Medical in OCT and the Licence in NOV, so it’s been with them since then but no doubt delayed due to various exceptional circumstances. I’m not getting much out of emailing them so I wondered if other people’s experiences might allow us to gauge where they’re up to

[deltahotel]

Going back through this thread there’s been a massive variety of experience. I started the process in early March and my licence was ready in Sep but without the TRE certificate. That took til Nov to sort out by which time the IAA office was closed and unable to exchange. They are now open part time and my licence is on its way to Dublin as we speak. At the moment once a licence is ready the exchange seems to happen quite quickly. I have no insight into how long the actual licence takes to be created.

emails can take more than a week to get a reply. It’s very frustrating but I’ve just had to wait. I think you’d need a very good reason to go through this process as a Brit (in my case because as TRE I need to be able to sign EASA licences).

Good luck

[621andy]

Just to add my 2 penn'orth...

I'm at the lower end of the scale in this lark but it's still bloody chaos.

I have a house in Germany and am registered as living there which I do at least part of the year, the rest of the time I work either in France or Myanmar depending on the time of year. I hold a UK passport.
We were all told the back end of 2019 to convert our UK (CAA) CPLs(Balloons) to a UK EASA licence as after April 2020 we could no longer fly on the old CPL...I believe I was the first mug to do this, closely followed by many others. As a bonus we could keep our UK CPLs for a small(35 quid) fee for use in countries who still preferred to validate UK licences rather than EASA ones(Such as Myanmar- however they now also accept EASA...).
This all would, we were assured, ensure we could legally operate in Europe as well as the UK; All well and good, but surely someone high up must've known that come Brexit it could all go tits-up, however no mention was made of the what-if at that point: The importance was to convert the licence ASAP.
Now someone more cynical than me might suggest that this was a blatant money making scheme...with no thought given to the consequences should a no-deal(or sh1te deal) be the result.
Fast forward to now and luckily the Myanmar DCA validated my UK CPL not my EASA BPL else I'd be in the poo now...However I'm now in the position of
1. Not being able to fly French registered balloons
2. Not being able to work in France for more than 3 months
3. Not being able to keep 'recent' on a friends German registered balloon
Thanks a bundle :mad:

The suggestion has been made that I renew my recently lapsed French licence(Lapsed due to my not needing it as I had shiny new EASA licence-Ha!) and then convert it to a French EASA licence and NOT mention the UK EASA licence to them at all... As to working there then the only option as my contract is for 4 1/2 months is to try and get a Carte de Sejour for the duration...Tres amusant

[101917]

Clyde & Co, a leading UK aviation law firms view of Brexit and aviation.
https://sites-clydeco.vuturevx.com/128/13837/january-2021/brexit---will-the-flying-public-notice-any-meaningful-difference-.asp?sid=f955c5cb-7077-4368-84b1-6a8f2110ce6b
Why did we bother? Nothing to be gained.
With the government giving all assistance short of actual help as a result of the pandemic and Brexit UK aviation is not in a good place.

[Climb150]

​​​​​You think a report about flying around Europe post brexit is a good reason to ask why you bothered? I don't think brexit was about how easy people could fly between EU and UK.

[101917]

You miss the point. Did you read the link?
It was about the difficulties faced by the UK aviation industry as a result of Brexit and the 'deal'.
Something that was always going to happen. Other industries will also be suffering.
Well done to those airlines that put plans into place to mitigate the effects of leaving the EU.

[Climb150]

Brexit – will the flying public notice any meaningful difference?

​​​​​​Im sorry, I didn't realise it was article about the poor old airlines. Judging by the title, it is aimed at the flying public.

But yes I did read it and yes I understand it. If you fly a G reg plane and you have a UK CAA licence you can't do legs that start and finish in the EU. Your flight must either start of finish in the UK. This isnt anything new. Move on, nothing to see here.

[Denti]

621andy

Be very careful with working in France without a visa at all, the exceptions for working on the normal "tourist" non visa entry in the deal are very very limited in scope, aimed at conferences and trade shows.

That said, no need to mention the UK license at all, it is not an EASA license anymore anyway.

[101917]

It is new, but never mind, we are where we are with Brexiteers putting their own spin on things.
UK airlines are in a far worse position than they were under the open skies agreement.
It is to be hoped that EU261/2004 on passenger rights is not changed by the government. At present it has been incorporated into UK law and let us hope it stays that way.

[Webby737]

Climb150

The flying public will soon notice when there's an AOG down route with no UK CAA licensed engineer to certify the repair !
Of course, they will be the first to complain !

[STN Ramp Rat]

I understand that Heathrow Airport has issued a Directors Notice on behalf of HM immigration that states that Engineers and Loadmasters are not considered part of the aircraft crew under the Air Navigation Order. As a result of this any Engineer or Load Master must either be a UK citizen or be have the appropriate work visa before they start to work in the UK. The DN states that the airside area is part of the UK and thus a flying spanner or Loadmaster cannot arrive and depart on the same aircraft to handle the turnaround. .

[Webby737]

Sounds like more madness !
The UK really are trying to make their lives more difficult.
Surely, if an individual is listed on the GENDEC as would be the case for a Flying Spanner or Loadmaster they should be considered to be part of the crew.

[Yeehaw22]

Nope. As of Monday engineers have to comply with entry requirements as per the travelling public. Which includes getting a negative pcr or lamp test before arrival. Even though they are on the gendec and have been with the rest of the crew the whole trip. They are not considered to be 'crew'.

Bonkers.

But then this is nothing particularly new. Flying spanners haven't been considered crew for a while. On return to the UK they aren't allowed to exit with the crew, instead having to take the same immigration channels as the passengers.

[Webby737]

Absolute Madness !

So any operators flying into the UK will have no choice but to sub contact their line maintenance / turnarounds to a UK based company.
More expenses at a time when the industry is already on its knees !

[Yeehaw22]

In more normal times the flying spanner is a bit of a rarity anyway so doesn't generally cause an issue. But at a time when everyone is trying to pick up any work they can with freight etc to destinations they wouldn't normally serve then yes its now causing a problem.

Not overseas mind you. Just on return to the UK.

[BizJetJock]

Not overseas mind you. Just on return to the UK.
Not true. this has been an issue in many countries for as long as i have been in aviation.

[STN Ramp Rat]

101917

In fact that may not be correct, the legislation covers all flights to Europe and the UK exiting Europe will not change anything as it will still cover flights to Europe, so payments are still required. The UK could, if it chooses, change the law to remove payment for flights to non-EU destinations but it can't prevent payments for flights to European destinations.

[kiwi grey]

Webby737

It's worse
As I understand what's been written above, the personnel to whom the maintenance is subcontracted would have to hold EASA licenses in addition to the UK CAA licenses they will need to work on G-reg aircraft

[Webby737]

That's correct.
As of the 01 Jan this year EASA Licensed Engineers can no longer certify work on UK (G) registered aircraft and UK CAA Licensed Engineers can no longer certify work on EASA registered aircraft.
This becomes a bit problematic if you've got a small line station with only one or two engineers.
There's still more fun to come in the future, you can still fit parts certified with an EASA Form 1 till the end of 2023, after that you will require a UK CAA Form 1. I can see component manufacturer / overhaul companies having to issue triplicate releases in the future (EASA / FAA / UK CAA).
So in brief, more exams, more paperwork and more expenses !

[Yeehaw22]

And yet the UK have allowed a 2 year grace period for any easa license holders to continue to work in the UK certifying UK aircraft. Have UK license holders been granted the same privilege in Europe?

No we haven't. Top work Boris.

​​

[Climb150]

How may times must it be explained that the EU is a group of countries that must all agree on any changes to EASA rules. Same as Brexit, all EU countries must sign off off on it.

[Tom Sawyer]

The reason why there is no 2 year reciprocal recognition of UK LAME Licences by EASA is that the licence didn't simply exist at that point in time. EASA were hardly going to sign up to recognising a licence when nobody knew the format, details and requirements to hold a licence (even though most of us suspected it was going to be a cut and paste from EASA Pt66). The question is, what are the Government going to do about it once the first UK Pt66 Licences are issued instead of just crossing out EASA. on our current Licence?
I transferred to Ireland to maintain EASA and am just waiting for the UK CAA to come up with the process to reactivate my UK rights/Licence.

[Yeehaw22]

Climb150

I fully understand the foibles and how it works. Doesn't make it fair or right. At a time where jobs are going to be at a premium post covid, UK license holders are not only going to be restricted to UK positions only but also have any easa license holder competing for employment in the UK.

[Yeehaw22]

Tom Sawyer

This is where I feel most aggrieved. I didn't convert as it was only an indication at the time that the UK would issue a comparable UK Caa license. Nothing concrete, nothing in writing. I guess down to the fact the 'deal' was all so last minute.

But now it's too late. The UK issued easa licence holder is well and truly disadvantaged. I just hope once the dust settles that we end up with bilateral agreements down the line. But am not holding my breath as it seems we've burnt the bridges and there's no real incentive for easa to play ball.

[Tom Sawyer]

Sorry Yeehaw, it was in writing. The CAA Brexit Microsite Engineers section was updated with the details in late 2018 which is why I transferred mine to Ireland in early 2019 once I was aware I could get a UK licence and rights back post Brexit. If you are missing out on info/updates from UK CAA subscribe to their Skywise service (Home - SkyWise (http://skywise.caa.co.uk/)) for relevant updates.

For any other LAMEs info, there is a form SRG1014RET on the CAA publications site to reactivate your UK Licence if have transferred to another EASA state prior to Brexit, however there is no published process, requirements or costs that I can find to go with it.

[CW247]

but also have any easa license holder competing for employment in the UK.


Please explain that

[Yeehaw22]

Tom Sawyer

No it wasn't. They implied it would happen, they said it should happen but never 100% committed to it. I checked the site on numerous occasions waiting for it to be updated before October. I had several telephone and emails with the CAA again all non committal and also the company I worked for could not get a solid answer.

[Yeehaw22]

CW247

It's pretty straightforward. Any easa license holder can currently work in the UK certifying G reg aircraft for the next 2 years (at least). The UK issued license holder does not have the same reciprocal opportunities in Europe.

I fully understand the intricacies of it all but its not a level playing field. If we aren't getting a grace period in the EU then we shouldnt be granting one to EASA issued licenses. Petty? Absolutely, but I don't see any other way for it to be fair.

[Banana Joe]

West Atlantic to fire more pilots, but for those with right to live and work in the EU can move to West Atlantic Sweden. Way to go.

[Mcflyer101]

Contact Approach

No need to get all worked up. There won’t be any decent jobs in EU or U.K. for the foreseeable future anyway. With thousands of unemployed Pilots on both ends it will take years for the industry to recover. Time to change career if you want a decent living. As when some sort of hiring starts the wages will be comparable to those of cab drivers...The world has been scared into hiding. And it won’t change until this virus is completely exterminated. However it is impossible to get rid of it completely as it mutates into other strains. This is the normal course that any flu like viruses take. Unfortunately governments have found the perfect excuse for their power hungry drive. Add Bojo‘s “green revolution” to the mix and you will understand why aviation has been completely ignored. And now Brexit to top it all off....Trudeau in Canada is another green agenda nutjob who’s destroying the aviation sector over there. There will be an uptake eventually when governments can’t keep you imprisoned anymore. But it definitely will be longer than those 2 years of validation that the UKCAA is offering...

[Tom Sawyer]

Yehaw, this is the wording from the CAA Microsite "After 31 December 2020, individuals will be able to hold a UK and EASA Part 66 licence concurrently.

The UK CAA is preparing to open an application process for engineers who have previously transferred their licence to another EU member state to allow the restoration of their UK licence."

The first paragraph should have been obvious from the moment the UK said it was leaving EASA. The second paragraph may have been edited since I first saw the info in late 2018 from something like "there will be a process" to "preparing an application process", but the intent has remained the same in that you will be able to get a UK Licence under a grandfather rights scheme. Combined I think it is pretty obvious what options you had. I have discussed and shown this info to a number of colleagues over the past 2 years and most of them transferred to another NAA knowing they would be able to get a UK Licence sometime in 2021. The information about recognition of EASA Licences for 2 years post Brexit has also been on the site for a while (Sept 2018 approx). There was also a lot of discussion on Airmech in late 2018/early 2019 regarding pros/cons of transfer. The information has been been known for a while. Like I said, I didn't move my licence to IAA until I knew I could get a UK Licence reissued post Brexit.

[Yeehaw22]

Will just have to agree to disagree, like I said I there was a lot of 'should' rather than 'will'. Even when pressed the CAA wouldn't commit to this definitly being the case. Our quality manager at the time gave exactly the same response. Reading all the guidance out there I felt I couldn't know 100% it would happen.

At the time I felt it was a gamble as I envisaged being stuck with an easa licence and not getting my UK one back. Now with hindsight it was a no brainer to do it. I just hope the CAA don't make a mess of the process and start creating hoops to jump through.
​

[ndue345]

Most of the UK operators required their employees to have a UK issued licence (at least for flight crew), simply tranfering your licence to an other state is a breach of your contract.

This situation is even more stupid as you could have obtained any rating (TR, instructor certificate) in an other state and issued those ratings on your UK licence before the 31/12. No one knows if those ratings can now be transfered on an EASA licence. It's been almost a month that the UK-EU TCA has been signed and the EASA hasn't published anything for the validation, even though the AIRTRN.18 states that "certificates of competency and licences issued or rendered valid by one Party and still in force shall be recognised as valid by the other Party"....

[turbine100]

The UK CAA did make it clear on the Brexit site for almost 2 years that the U.K was leaving EASA with possible future mutual recognition which has not happened yet. People did have time to transfer licenses out if they desired, and the U.K CAA did say you could get a U.K license back post Brexit.

If an employers contract required a U.K license, perhaps employees or BALPA reps could have discussed transferring prior to Ireland or somewhere else in the years prior.

A few people now are stuck with the U.K license and hopefully the U.K CAA or department of transport are trying to sort out the mutual recognition.

If UK pilots no longer have the right to work in the EU, no mutual recognition as of yet, and the CAA wants revenue. Perhaps the CAA need to require aircraft / bases in the U.K to be on the G reg, with UK license holders and U.K residency.

[Uplinker]

Can I just ask: CAP 1705, (dated Nov 2018), is still on the UK CAA website and allows holders of UK licences with: additional remark at Section XIII “This licence is automatically validated as per the ICAO attachment to this licence”.

to legally fly aircraft registered by both EASA and the EU.

Is this still valid or has the CAA simply not updated its library?

Sorry if this has already been gone through on this thread.

[Denti]

If UK pilots no longer have the right to work in the EU, no mutual recognition as of yet, and the CAA wants revenue. Perhaps the CAA need to require aircraft / bases in the U.K to be on the G reg, with UK license holders and U.K residency.

I would think that is basically the case anyway. There is no automatic right to live and work in the UK for EU citizens, of course except those that have residence status in the UK, they would have to first get a job offer in the UK, and then try to navigate the points based immigration system. Now, the TCA between the EU and the UK provides for dry lease between both areas without much of a problem, and wet lease in from the EU into the UK as well, not the other way round though. So basing non-G registered aircraft in the UK has to be possible, at least to the extent necessary for dry or wet leases.

[gipsymagpie]

What utter nonsense! You obviously haven't read thegov.uk document properly, and/or don't understand how LPV works. We no longer are involved in the development of EGNOS, and UK companies after July will not have access to the SoL and Data services, which have nothing to do with LPV. So as per the CAA's notice, LPV approaches are unaffected.
I am getting fed up of all the Chicken Littles running around shrieking that the sky is falling....
Well I hope you like the taste of humble pie BizJetJock

[Denti]

Care to elaborate?

[gipsymagpie]

Sorry, I should have done so. Grant Shapps has confirmed that LPV will no longer be available from 25 June 2021. Very frustrating for airfields that invested in getting them approved.

[ATC Watcher]

https://www.flyer.co.uk/shapps-confirms-no-lpv-approaches-after-june/?cmpredirect

Very sad to read the reasoning behind, but I cannot really understand the last bit : how developing a completely new system from scratch in the UK will be cheaper than contributing to EGNOS. And as said before, do they think all the airports that have invested in LPV already will happily do it again with anew system ?

[BizJetJock]

Yes, sadly it appears they couldn't agree the price for continued access. I foolishly thought that on something as non political as flight safety both sides might behave like grown-ups. I now realise I am hopelessly naive.

[Field Required]

The UK Government / EASA are absolutely useless. All parties involved in allowing this to get so bad ought to be slung out and replaced by those who actually want to solve this mess. Sadly it seems like no one cares.

[FlyingStone]

EASA has nothing to do with this. UK has decided to not be part of EASA system at their own will - they could have easily remain an EASA member state, while being outside of EU.

[Asturias56]

They probably noticed it had the word "European" in it so came out - it'll be the Song Contest next..................

[rogue leader]

Ryanair accepting applications for their cadet scheme and talent pool from UK passport holders, as long as they have an EASA licence (confirmed by their recruitment manager).....

https://careers.ryanair.com/cadets/

[Contact Approach]

FlyingStone

Easa could have easily recognised U.K. licences like the U.K. have done for the next two years so this mess could be dealt with properly.

[FlyingStone]

The only reason why UK is recognising EASA licences for the upcoming two years, is because UK CAA is nowhere near ready to revert to fully capable regulatory authority on FCL (among all the other parts) just yet. EASA have no such problem.

You can't even begin the EASA to UK licence conversion process until 1st April.

[rogue leader]

To give them credit the UK CAA may also be trying to prevent those who hold EASA licences (or transferred out from the UK to another EASA state) on orders of their employer, or in order to just try and preserve hard won privileges being stripped away as a by-product of a political situation, from being unable to fly in the UK - bravo!

[Denti]

Contact Approach

Nope, as there is no legislation allowing it. That would have to be proposed by the council, drafted by the commission and agreed upon by the European Parliament. The process takes usually around 2 to 3 years.

[Boldpilot2000]

Is the IAA issuing new licenses? Applied last year but haven't heard back not reachable via phone or email.

[Barry D.Hatchett]

Any UK passport holders been successful in finding an EU based job since Brexit came into effect?

COVID situation notwithstanding, all job offers across the EU now come with the caveat 'Must have unrestricted right to live and work in Europe'. My understanding is that this means UK passport holders are not eligible.

[eagle21]

rogue leader

Meanwhile ex sandpit UK pilots crying about Aer Lingus employing Irish pilots in Manchester....

[Joe le Taxi]

JUST Irish/EU pilots, or plus British pilots? The former shouldn't be allowed. Fine to employ Irish pilots in the UK, but not ok to exclude British. If so, a complaint to the minister for employment/DWP or EHRC should put a stop to this discrimination.

[eagle21]

No one is excluded, in fact it is likely that many if the pilots starting in MAN will be UK citizens that have worked at EI in Ireland. Brexit plus Covid has resulted in the perfect storm for UK pilots. When plenty of jobs were available in the middle east, in europe with easyJet or Ryanair or even in Ireland with the UK charters, non one complained.

[fdgolf]

The IAA are taking quite long due to the pandemic on license issue. But they are issuing licenses.

Cheers

[Banana Joe]

The IAA have told me that a change of SOLI takes 12 weeks if all goes well.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

eagle21

Odd both airlines are part of same group yet the part based c200 miles southish of EGCC are not but the one in a foreign bailiwick is ?

[biddedout]

Joe le Taxi

The complaints are in, DWP, HO, DfT CC MP's and Transport Committee. They cannot claim that they aren't aware, its just whether or not they are interested. It wouldn't have taken much to get AL to drop their discriminatory clauses as a cost of gaining approvals. The question will be if this is allowed to continue if they bring more aircraft across.