Brexit and the Aviation industry

[eagle21]

what discriminatory clauses? Don’t spread falsehoods

If let’s say BA were to set up a subsidiary based in Ireland would you expect them not to extend the job offer to their pilots with the right to work and live there?
Any difficulties faced by UK license holders to work in EU countries are a product of the Brexit negotiations. Unfortunately the UK government did not do a good job in this field. It is the UK CAA’s choice (sovereign decision) to validate EASA licenses (only for two years). There are plenty of British pilots with EASA licenses and ALL of them have the right to work and live in Ireland.

[biddedout]

Eagle,

I am probably getting confused here but I think we are on the same page. My question I suppose is what is meant by "right to work in the EU". Does it actually mean freedom of movement rights as in right to live and work in any EU country or does it mean Right to live in Ireland (which UK nationals have) which just happens to be an EU country. If EI mean the former then it discriminates but it is not Aer Lingus doing the discriminating, they haven't changed anything. It is the UK Government that has made changes and these are detrimental to UK pilots.

[Koalatiger]

Big mistake by UK to leave EGNOS... no LPV approaches after 24th June...

[gipsymagpie]

Which to be fair the government told everyone back in Dec 2020 (in the planning department basement, hidden under a pile of rubbish and written in Sumerian). Look back at post 132. I cannot see who has enough clout to champion rejoining EGNOS so airfields can renew their EWA. Just remember there are non-EU nations (Morocco, Serbia) who seem perfectly capable of having an agreement with EGNOS (and having LPV) but not being in the EU. And we invested so much in the project too....

[HEMS chap]

So are they still doing SOLI? or do you have to go through exams and flight tests (again). I hear if you did not intend going EASA pre end of Dec 2020 but you do now as a UK licence holder your er pumped. But if your an EASA licence holder/or a UK who did SOLI pre Dec 2020 you can now hold both a EASA and UK licence. Thanks minister of funny walks who sorted that out if that is correct means UK licence holders are really in a fix. Standing by to be corrected as not looking to change but some folk are.

[deltahotel]

HEMS. That’s a pretty accurate summary.

[rogue leader]

HEMS chap

Pretty much, but just to make it even simpler for Pre 2021 non-UK EASA holders they can continue to fly G-reg in the UK until the end of 2022 using their EASA licence and a validation document free to download from the CAA.

For those UK EASA licence holders who did SOLI before 2021 it's mixed - if you new EASA licence issue date is before April 2021 then same as above. If not then until you apply for and receive your new UK licence (no timescales given) then you cannot fly G-reg in the UK.

Great for pre-2021 non-UK EASA licence holders, which is wonderful for my fellow professionals in that situation, and makes perfect sense.

Not so great for former UK EASA holders whose SOLI dragged out outside of their control.

Awful and nonsensical for UK EASA holders who in the future want to fly under EASA and didn't SOLI out before 2021 through their own choice or because their employment circumstances made it impossible.

[gipsymagpie]

Short term, you can get a validation to fly an EASA aircraft on the basis of your UK licence. But that probably won't work long term for a European employer.
Of note, the conversion requirements drop significantly once you have an ATPL Vs a CPL...but you still need the exams - all 14!

[rogue leader]

That's interesting - do you have a link to any info on how that validation process works please?

Yes, the 14 exams you may already have taken to be issued your valid for life EASA licence....

[Denti]

Check out https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32020R0723&from=EN#d1e238-1-1

It is mentioned, but not linked to, in the brexit FAQ on the EASA webpage.

[ndue345]

The conversion from a third country is more than a skill test and ATPL theory

-EASA class 1
-ELP (fcl 055)
-ATPL Theory (14 exams)
-skill test on your type if you are ATPL or training + CPL skill test for CPL holders
-UPRT as it will be your 1st CS25 on EASA licence.

all the NAA’s fees

[HEMS chap]

Cheers for comments very interesting and massively frustrating for people in our world who have through blood sweat and pots of cash to get qualified to do the career of their choice. Hopefully someone in EASA and CAA or UK department of transport will put their grown up head on and level the playing field for those having to struggle through this debacle. Would not hold my breath on that though so feel the anguish for the pilots I work with who are either on a year and a half time bomb now, or the others who are facing unemployment due to not having the time/resources to go through all those hoops. Loved the bit about having to carry out a skills test on your type...... do they know how much a S92 or AW 139 etc or EC 135 costs per hour to rent!!!

[ndue345]

For the acceptance of the TR, you need to have:
-your type valid on your licence.
-500hrs for plane or 350hrs for helicopters
-current practice

so if you are new on the type or/and COVID or unemployed, you won’t be able to get the type on your licence. Even though you can financially support this mess.

[Denti]

HEMS chap

A normal simulator LPC is enough. No clue how common those are for helicopters, but I've seen a EC135/145 level D sim in Frankfurt.

[HEMS chap]

rogue leader

You put it far more factual than myself so thanks for that. I am staggered and slightly embarrassed that I had no real knowledge of what all the implementations meant. Being a UK based pilot never really looked into it. Anyone affected you have my sympathies... bless those people in previous and current UK parliament and EU land, you have really done all the aviation industry from the EU or UK proud haven't you. Hope that reads as sarcastically as is was meant to.

[HEMS chap]

Be fun to ask a UK MP or European MP to re sit their qualifications so they can carry on doing the job they have been doing for years ( plus fund it it personally whilst running a household etc ) I am willing to wager they could not pass the entrance exam.... I certainly couldn't after 30 years flying I think I can only think of the odd question that actually had reference to what we do daily, apart from show learning.

[rogue leader]

Denti, thank you for that - not a replacement for an EASA licence but a glimmer of hope for someone who needs to work in EASA land.

[HEMS chap]

gipsymagpie

Yep UK licence holders def thrown under the bus... as the youth say.

[Alex Whittingham]

Following up on earlier posts I asked Austro Control the following:

I have a policy question for you, if you have time, please. We are used to the idea that ATPL TK exams have a 36 month validity for CPL licence issue under FCL.025 (c)(1) and the implications of FCL.025 (c)(2) only normally affect people who have been off flying for a long time. However when you read that para it clearly says that ATPL TK exams are valid for issue of an ATPL for 7 years since the last IR expired.On that basis, pilots who had previously passed EASA ATPL TK exams, under the UK normally but also possibly under the authority of another Member State, and who failed to transfer SOLI out of the UK before exit day and therefore currently hold a UK ATPL or a UK CPL IR are asking whether their historic ATPL TK exam passes are valid on this basis to gain an EASA ATPL with a state such as Austro, ie exams credited, only Class 1 and flight tests required.

I have to say I can’t see why not. What is the official Austro view, please?

I asked them to put it to their policy unit and give a yes/no answer. They reply:

We ... cannot avoid confirming definitively and in purely legal terms that is possible for the candidates to apply with the existing certificate from our point of view. Nevertheless, if the candidates decide to issue the license with us, we would inform EASA accordingly about the recognition of the certificates by us. Should political objections then arise, we would at least know this in advance and would not have to burden candidates with contingencies afterwards.

[Booglebox]

Interesting. Someone should try it.

[BANANASBANANAS]

I guess everyone's situation is different but here's mine. UK citizen, resident in Asia, made redundant from my flying job in September 2020. I have an Irish EASA ATPL with B777 type rating which I converted from my UK EASA ATPL in around 2014.

Can I apply for a job in UK or Europe with this licence and, in the case of UK, would I have to transfer it at some stage back to a UK licence and, if so, would any exams be involved?

Caveat all the above by saying I am 59 years old and it may all just fall in the 'too difficult' category.

Bit of a mess isn't it!

[deltahotel]

Bananas. Wherever you apply you will need the right to live and work - can’t tell from your post how that fits but guessing U.K. Under the current validation process you can work for a U.K. airline with your EASA licence. You can apply for a U.K. national licence and medical certificate from the CAA. The age thing is your problem!

rgds

[Denti]

Well, right to live and work should apply both to Ireland and UK, shouldn't it?

[Banana Joe]

Depending on the airline, that is not unrestricted right to live and work in the EU. His options can be limited.

[Denti]

Indeed, as a UK citizen (without any EU citizenship) he would be limited to the right to live and work in the UK and Ireland, the rest of the EU/EEA would not be possible. There is always a possibility to get an EU blue card, but that requires a university degree and a binding job offer, depending on country the employer would have to prove first that he cannot find another suitably qualified EU local or EU citizen for the job, which is currently and for the next few years impossible for pilots.

The right to live and work is quite independent from the license anyway. One needs to have both.

[BTAP]

Just about to reapply for the UK licence after moving it to Ireland last year. Regarding the chances of getting a visa as a foreign pilot - I guess time will tell. Not ideal!

[Blake Seven]

So if I’ve got this right, the UK CAA have now made it a straightforward application process for non-UK EASA licence holders to obtain a U.K. licence and fly U.K. registered aircraft.
Even those that have NOT previously held a U.K. licence. Fill out a form, cough up the fee and you’re good to go.

No reciprocal agreement. If a U.K. pilot should wish to have an EASA licence, its the full process to be completed. Exams, flight tests, medical.....
So at a time we’re there are thousands of U.K. pilots being placed on furlough, part time contracts and/ or made redundant, why has the CAA decided to let European pilots apply for whatever jobs may be available on U.K. registered aircraft?
Furthermore, jobless pilots from Monarch, Thomas Cook and Flybe are now having to compete with EU pilots in an already constricted marketplace.
Seems that Aviation, along with Fishing and Farming has been sold a pup and lied to about the benefits of Brexit.
Well played CAA, well played indeed.

[TURIN]

Don't blame the CAA. They didn't sign off on this deal. The UK government did. "An oven ready deal". 🙄

[Alex Whittingham]

While they are not exclusively to blame, yes, let's blame the CAA. The more I dig into this the greater my conviction that the CAA never really chose to believe that we would leave EASA and never made any real effort to prepare for it. In my area of interest, for instance, I spent 3 years telling them that they needed to set up question banks for post-EASA professional exams and was met with what can only be described as over-confident lies such as "the caa has the capability to create its own question banks". What was done? Nothing. And so when exit day came they appropriated the EASA question banks with a very dodgy attempt to claim that they owned them, really, not EASA. What on earth will happen if EASA successfully apply for an injunction to stop them using them? The answer is no professional pilot exams for the forseeable future. The CAA won't put a Plan B in place because that means admitting that Plan A is dodgy. Let's also look at their legal obligations. They were required to publish a rulemaking process, carefully specified in Article 115 of UK (EU) Reg No 2018/1139 which has requirements for prior consultation when AMCs and Certification Standards are being considered for adoption and an NPA process before adoption. Not done, despite literally years of advance notice and still not done today so all their attempts to adopt EASA AMCs and issue certification standards are not compliant with UK law and in effect ineffective. I complain. The CAA say they won't consider the complaint. Loss of LPV approaches; I told a director of the CAA (a pilot) in late summer last year this was going to happen, he had no idea how EGNOS integrity control worked, said it had not been mentioned to him in briefings. Surprise! Anyone who has close contact with the CAA will be, like me, forming the opinion that they are very close to imploding in a miasma of incompetence and denial.

[Blake Seven]

Don't blame the CAA. They didn't sign off on this deal. The UK government did. "An oven ready deal". 🙄

In case you’ve forgotten, the CAA is a branch of the Department of Transport. Amongst its other area of responsibilities, FCL falls well and truly within its remit.
Do you think Shapps and his chinless wonder chums understand for one second, the nuances of licence issue and privileges. Not a chance. That’s what the CAA should have been advising the DofT about, in order that a considered approach could have been made.
Their failure to do so, will impact on UK aviation do quite some time.

[eglnyt]

I think you are being rather harsh on the CAA. The UK Government in its pursuit of Brexit was never going to be "advised" by anybody who tried to explain to them the inevitable pitfalls of the path they were pursuing. Such advice was "Project Fear" and organisations that dared to speak truth unto power were at best sidelined and ignored. I suspect they hoped that at some point reason would prevail and the obvious insanity of leaving EASA would be avoided. The trouble is that logic holds no sway when political ideology takes hold.

[TURIN]

The CAA probably got the same letter I did from the Minister in charge. I quote "we do not expect to be leaving EASA". I still have the letter!

[CW247]

So if I’ve got this right, the UK CAA have now made it a straightforward application process for non-UK EASA licence holders to obtain a U.K. licence and fly U.K. registered aircraft.
Even those that have NOT previously held a U.K. licence. Fill out a form, cough up the fee and you’re good to go...

If that EASA license holder does not have pre Brexit employment rights, his UK license will be useless as any employment without a work visa (which needs to be justified by the employer) would be illegal. This may seem one sided but was clearly done so that the many hundreds of Brits with foreign licenses could continue to gain employment with UK employers. Imagine, what the outcome would be if those people who lost their jobs due to Covid had to retrain and relicence just to be employed at home. This would be even less palatable.

The topic cannot be looked at in isolation. Work rights, who was here and employed before Brexit vs who was not makes all the difference. Airlines have to adjust their AOCs and new ones must have a justified reason for wet leasing non UK reg aircraft. Even Ryanair have been challenged over having a UK AOC but leasing EI reg planes to run it and major changes are expected if they want to co tonue to do business out of the UK.

The net advantage, say a Pole or Spaniard has over a Brit to be employed for the first time in the UK post Brexit is zero.

[FlyingStone]

Seems that Aviation, along with Fishing and Farming has been sold a pup and lied to about the benefits of Brexit.

Lied? This government? Surely they would never even think about such a thing.

Even Ryanair have been challenged over having a UK AOC but leasing EI reg planes to run it and major changes are expected if they want to co tonue to do business out of the UK.

Unless they want to expand in the UK domestic market or increase the capacity to non-EU destinations, very little - if anything - has to change. An EU company can base unlimited amount EU-registered aircraft in the UK if they only operate UK-EU flights and vice versa, such is the trade agreement as it stands today.

[Denti]

CW247

Actually, wet leasing is not in any way restricted by the UK leaving the EU, the TCA makes sure of that, at least for UK companies. The other way round is only available in exceptional circumstances. The UK CAA might take issue with the ryanair approach of having just one UK registered aircraft on the UK AOC and leasing in all the rest, but in less extreme cases there is absolutely no restriction at all. Even less so if they simply fire their UK based personnel for EU-UK flights and do those flights from the other end with their EU AOCs, an approach that is not limited to this special case but can be applied quite widely elsewhere as well. IIRC ryanair used that for a while with their french bases, easyjet is now doing that with their german base etc.

[Timmy Tomkins]

I am sure that Mr G SHapps can provide a solution similar to the one he uses on his own aeroplane. FAA licence and all aircraft registered on an N prefix in the US..........

[futurepilot22]

With all this in mind. What would be the most logical licensing choice (UK CAA or EASA) for a future UK pilot to maximise career opportunities? If I want to work in the EU I need a job offer from an EU airline and thus an EASA license, but if for some other reason I am not granted a work visa then I am stuck in the UK and unable to fly for any company. This is my interpretation as things stand. correct me if I am wrong. But with the high volume of air travel between the UK and EU I expect a resort back to similar rules as pre-Brexit once this Covid crisis is dealt with where EASA and UK CAA are mutually recognized and non-limiting on what aircraft you can fly and where.
Note - I am currently looking at flight schools and wether or not to pursue a UK CAA or EASA license - are UK citizens even allowed to go for EASA licenses with the current rules? I have done my research on line but can't find any conclusive information.

[papabravowhiskey]

As a UK citizen, you have the right to live and work in the Republic of Ireland under the CTA rules, and could therefore be based in the RoI. Live full-time for five years in the RoI and you would be eligible for an Irish passport. Marry an Irish person and live full-time in Ireland for 3 years and you'd then be eligible for an Irish passport.

[gipsymagpie]

HEMS chap

Babcock at Staverton have EASA ATO approval, EASA sim approval and EASA examiners so that might be a good route. I expect an initial licence as opposed to a conversion might require the test to be done in a member state (heard this was the case for an initial EASA IR under the IAA). Might be easier than you think.

[wiggy]

futurepilot22

"Where" as in "I can fly from the UK to anywhere in Europe and then come back"?

Hopefully that'll return PDQ post Covid.

"Where" as in whereabouts you are based/employed?

Freedom of movement for work purposes into/around the EU for Brits has gone - I'd strongly caution making plans based on the assumption that that is coming back anytime soon.