Isle of Man-3 [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

OzzyOzBorn

18th Dec 2020, 21:26

Despite both being islands, Isle of Man and Jersey are not directly comparable with respect to their handling of C-19. In early August 2020, Jersey did open up for tourists (subject to them taking a covid test); Isle of Man remained resolutely closed to all but essential travel throughout. They've been cut off for months now. Jersey has demonstrated a flexible approach to opening up when a window of opportunity presents; Isle of Man's preferred route is one of open-ended isolation (barring the special case corridor with Guernsey). I am not criticising either, simply pointing out that the destination which has shown willingness to open up is a better medium term bet for airlines than the one which has not. The last thing airlines need is to take lots of bookings to a destination which shows a marked aversion to accepting any visitors until the whole crisis has passed.

Re the LGW/LTN situation, I would suggest that EasyJet prioritises protecting its LGW slot portfolio more highly than those just about anywhere else. So if they need to ship in more aircraft from other nearby airports to do that, they will. But whilst IOM is a 'no go' for visitors it is an obvious one to chop until policy there changes. For similar reasons, it makes no sense to put the planned MAN-IOM route on sale for S21 when there remains little confidence that passengers will be allowed to travel.

BTW, my comments are not intended to be EasyJet-specific. For example, upto four carriers have been mentioned in relation to a potential new MAN-IOM schedule since the demise of FlyBe. But there is currently just a once daily Loganair E145 service offering connectivity for essential travel. I wouldn't expect any of these candidates to commit further until they can be confident that their prospective customers will be permitted to travel.

Buster the Bear

18th Dec 2020, 22:21

easyJet were successful in obtaining the equivalent of three extra based airframes, in the Gatwick Slot Lottery.

flyerguy

18th Dec 2020, 22:49

If it were true that LTN had been cut because of IOM restrictions then the same would be said about BRS/BFS/LPL/LGW and now MAN but all remain on sale

Jenny Tails

18th Dec 2020, 23:11

OzzyOzBorn

And one island has a very open economy now and the other is essentially back in lockdown plagued by a new outbreak

OzzyOzBorn

19th Dec 2020, 18:03

Note that I did say I am not criticising either. Each made the choice which was perceived to be right for themselves from a medical perspective. That is fair enough.

But the fact remains that airline planning departments are more likely to solicit bookings for jurisdictions which have a reasonable chance of being open for travel over those which will likely not be. It is basic common sense.

JSCL

5th Jan 2021, 11:12

Loganair Summer 2021
2x ATR and 1xE145
New routes: Birmingham, Belfast International, Jersey and Southampton.

LHR to go double daily.

BFS BHD

5th Jan 2021, 15:02

Belfast International? Do you mean Belfast City? Loganair operate flights from BHD not BFS.

JSCL

5th Jan 2021, 15:05

Belfast International? Do you mean Belfast City? Loganair operate flights from BHD not BFS.
The list stated BHX, SOU, JER, BFS.

Someone may have used the wrong code.. or not?

BFS BHD

5th Jan 2021, 15:18

Ahh I see. Maybe someone did use the wrong code. :) will have to wait to the flights go on sale.

The Nutts Mutts

5th Jan 2021, 15:23

Any idea of days of operation, frequencies or type for SOU yet? I'm guessing it's an internal list and not in the public domain yet?

JSCL

5th Jan 2021, 15:31

Work in progress. You can be sure the E145 will stick with LHR, loads have been performing OK there. 38 pax on 2nd Jan inbound to IOM.

The Nutts Mutts

5th Jan 2021, 15:38

No worries, will wait and see what gets released in due course. Thanks for the reply.

Fly757X

5th Jan 2021, 15:57

Looks very positive from an outsiders view. I’ll certainly be making use of the Belfast service providing it goes ahead as stated. Given the vast array of routes listed there I wouldn’t rule out a 4 frame at some point to just bolster frequencies a little more, obviously dependant on whether these ATRs are 42/72s.

Haven't a clue

5th Jan 2021, 20:36

Alas the Island has just gone into lockdown for a minimum of 3 weeks.

While I understand the enthusiasm of fellow posters for the expansion of Loganair services sadly there seems to have been little acknowledgement of the fact that the dark days can return at any moment. And they have.

I suspect the reported loads ex LHR were influenced by the events reported on the island in the past few days and an understandable desire by residents to return ASAP before the drawbridge was pulled up. Which it has.

willy wombat

5th Jan 2021, 21:23

Are these routes being subsidised by the Manx Government? I don’t believe a 145 can make money at LHR without a subsidy unless LHR has gone soft on their charges.

EI-BUD

5th Jan 2021, 21:40

JSCL

This is an interesting development if true. Loganair already have a relationship with BFS for cargo to/from Scotland. What's even more relevant is this, if IOM goes to BFS, no reason why other Loganair routes could not follow suit where there is no existing competition eg ABZ.

JSCL

5th Jan 2021, 22:04

My understanding is that Loganair are also trying to get the IOM postal flights contract from West Atlantic.

Fly757X

5th Jan 2021, 22:41

EI-BUD

I think that was a type error in fairness as easyJet intend on restarting BFS when the situation permits. Personally I’d see no benefit of moving to BFS for consumers (even though I am much closer to it than BHD) and with Loganair sticking to their guns in regards to their onboard product and airport experience I just really don’t see it I’m afraid. Anyways that’s less relevant here! :)

EI-BUD

5th Jan 2021, 23:37

To be fair easyJet using an Airbus twice or three times a week is no substitute for say a daily link on an appropriate sized aeroplane. The IOM has had awfully infrequent connectivity to Belfast in recent years.

flyerguy

6th Jan 2021, 08:17

Saabdriver1

The MAN route is still on sale, so I think he may have got mixed up and I’ve been reliably informed that the IOM Airport were made aware by EZY that these flights will be operating (subject to border etc)

flyerguy

6th Jan 2021, 08:22

JSCL

I understand BFS and SOU. BHX was always in the plans but with Loganair and Blue Islands agreement you can get to JER via BHX and SOU so unless there going to try it maybe 1x weekly after they saw how many people went to GCI but that was under different circumstances. Blue Islands used to operate IOM-JER but if it is direct then any route right now is good news.

Wonder if there’s any news on EDI as this was increased rapidly by Loganair the few years before this all happened (Pandemic), and maybe a 3x Weekly NCL may work as CityWings have operated it in the past, but with Loganair increasing flights in the Northwest it might seem a good idea.

MAN flights I’ve been told will be IOM crew Operating IOM-MAN-NQY-MAN-IOM.

JSCL

12th Jan 2021, 09:22

Loganair's Isle of Man S21 network:
Manchester-upto 4x daily flights
Liverpool-upto 3x daily
London Heathrow-upto 2x daily
Birmingham-upto 1x daily
Belfast City-upto 6x weekly
Edinburgh-upto 4x weekly
Southampton-upto 3x weekly
Jersey-upto 1x weekly

Isle of Man will be operated with 1 Embraer 145 and 1 ATR 42 aircraft between 28 March 2021 and 30 June 2021 From 1 July 2021, the Isle of Man base will be operated by 3 ATR 72 aircraft Timing changes from 1 July 2021 with frequency increases to Manchester and Liverpool

Flights are now live and bookable on Loganair website.

RVF750

12th Jan 2021, 13:54

I just hope they hire some of the brilliant ex Flybe local crew.

3legs

13th Jan 2021, 09:24

Let's not forget the Stobart crews too! They are already rated on the ATR :ok:

goldeneye

13th Jan 2021, 09:30

JSCL

Are they getting more ATR-72’s as they only have two(which are mostly used to Shetland from Aberdeen) plus a freighter. There are more ATR-42’s coming this year.

SWBKCB

13th Jan 2021, 10:40

Is there any indication of when IOM will relax it's border restrictions? They seem to be currently at the highest level.

flyerguy

13th Jan 2021, 11:36

The IOM is currently in a lockdown, much stricter than the U.K. they keep repeating that border lockdown won’t be eased until the U.K. levels decrease

lfc84

13th Jan 2021, 11:51

Lockdown will be eased. It's the borders that will retain some level of restriction

pabely

19th Mar 2021, 19:05

From Sept 5th down to 1 daily, thanks!

lfc84

19th Mar 2021, 19:29

All the idiots that wanted easyJet to leave, well this should make them happy

Alteagod

19th Mar 2021, 20:03

Has the BHD route been canned by LM?

Fly757X

19th Mar 2021, 21:01

Pushed back to the 21st of June.

Alteagod

19th Mar 2021, 21:12

Oh thats a big push back but cheers

pabely

20th Mar 2021, 08:30

lfc84

Will make Loganair happy!

Mickey Kaye

20th Mar 2021, 11:55

Needs a Blackpool route

SWBKCB

20th Mar 2021, 12:42

Are there any passenger facilities at Blackpool for a commercial operation?

pabely

20th Mar 2021, 12:57

No money to be made in the good times so zero chance unless you wanted to pay a £300 price like the old SI service the Channel Isles.

flyerguy

21st Mar 2021, 11:56

Picks back up towards the end if the year, looks like easyJet are planning a later running summer season, and may possibly use the aircraft for extra capacity on its routes where it can carry a higher number of people

IOMX

21st Mar 2021, 19:42

Hardly a surprise as has long been referenced Easyjet only use the Isle Of Man as 'filler' in their schedule. There is no real commitment and as soon as another more viable route appears they are off! At least Loganair are setting up a small hub and operating a variety of routes. And I know they have financial support from the IOMG but they are incurring risk as well so at least the island has a chance of having a regular set of services something Easyjet will never offer.

lfc84

21st Mar 2021, 19:58

YawnStop peddling the same old nonsense. It's 2021

IOMX

21st Mar 2021, 20:48

It’s not nonsense it’s fact ! EasyJet are good at offering cheap seats and there is nothing wrong with them they have a role to play . However they will never offer regular and frequent services to the island it’s not how their business model works . That will be in 2021, 2022 or whatever year you choose !

businessair75

21st Mar 2021, 21:30

Their business model does offer regular and frequent, sometimes even shuttle style, services. The problem is the IOM itself.....i.e its a small market, unsurprisingly given its geographical nature. It's true, easyJet can't offer the service that the island needs or deserves but the airline plays its part in bringing in tourists and locals alike, particularly at certain times of the year whilst offering an alternative to the steam packet and to facilitate otherwise discretionary trips. I don't think it's true to say that IOM is just schedule filler fodder for easy.

IOMX

21st Mar 2021, 21:52

I agree with a lot of these points and the size of the market is why their business model does not work for providing the island with regular frequent services . And the point about bringing tourists is I believe valid hence why I say they have a role to play . However they do use the island as a filler that’s why in June , July , August on some days they have two flights a day whereas in September and October they go to one a day ! Clearly the plane has an alternative use because in November there are once again two flights on some days . If that’s not the sign of a filler I don’t what is !

easyflyer83

22nd Mar 2021, 02:21

Those summer months are obviously for tourists. As for November, I imagine there is probably a reason because in the context of filling the schedule, IOM fills very little in a quiet month such as November. I would hazard a guess those additional frequencies are well patronised by Christmas shoppers and other part season related activity.

Skipness One Foxtrot

22nd Mar 2021, 02:25

IOMX

If you want a regular scheduled service to a wide variety of destinations then frankly you need a nationalised and subsidised local carrier. And you probably need to pull easyJet's route authority, because even though your local carrier may not make money (it will lose quite a lot), to minimise losses and keep frequency, you'd need to capture a % of those who would fly easyJet, as you will need volume. As they won't choose an ATR over an A319 if they're semi-relaxed about their schedule and reasonably price sensitive, then they'll fly elsewhere, and probably on easyJet!
Hence for what you want, you actually need to get rid of easyJet as it's going to destroy any profits your airline could hope for in good times on higher volume routes, and it needs those to cross subsidise the lower volume ones. The days of G-OJET or G-MIMA popping over to LHR 3 x daily and charging and arm and a leg for the privilege aren't something I think we should aspire to. There's no simple win. I mean look at Aurigny, they only still exist because A319s can't get into GCI with a commercial load.
The use of "filler" is a misnomer, every off peak slot is a filler by that definition and if they don't bring the bacon home, they go elsewhere.

IOMX

22nd Mar 2021, 10:21

easyflyer83

The data is clear that fewer passengers travel through Ronaldsway in November than September or October ( source :monthly air traffic summary) . For those who believe that Easyjet can provide all the services the island needs ask them if they will overnight even one plane at Ronaldsway. I would hazard a guess the answer would be no in which case forget any early morning flights off the island for patient transfers or business the earliest you will be leaving is circa 8.30am!

easyflyer83

22nd Mar 2021, 12:05

I don’t think anyone has suggested that easy can provide all the Islands air travel needs. By the same token, I don’t think a semi frequent, regional aircraft operation can either. The two co-existing is a win win in my opinion.

As for overnighting, it’s not beyond the realms of possibility. Pre-pandemic, easyJet overnighted several LGW aircraft at various stations including INV. That said, the arrival by 9am need is not as big as it once was and the pandemic will impact this further. I’m not saying it isn’t there but I’m sure that market will be well catered by the small aircraft operator at the corresponding fares.

OzzyOzBorn

22nd Mar 2021, 16:22

Could I invite someone resident on the Island to update us on the latest vibes emanating from Tynwald with regards to reopening access for visitors from Eng/Sco/Wal/NI? Does the prevailing mood suggest any meaningful reopening at all in time for S21 season? And if so, how dire are the restrictions they intend to impose on visitors? Until we know the answers to these questions, all discussion of airline route frequency is moot.

Personally, the IOM is exactly the kind of place I can envisage myself visiting again this Summer. But I will not book speculatively - had quite enough of chasing up vouchers and refunds, thanks! My business awaits if the 'powers that be' care to open the door!

BTW, It is quite logical that air travel demand for the IOM is reduced in November. The tourist attractions which bring so many to the island are highly seasonal in operation, and climate is unpredictable even in the better months.

lfc84

22nd Mar 2021, 16:30

Easyjet actually increase their frequencies in W21. For example IOM-LPL has 3 flights on a Saturday

manx crab

22nd Mar 2021, 16:34

OzzyOzBorn

Some light reading for you here which may or may not help you guess

https://covid19.gov.im/media/1573/exit-framework.pdf

easyflyer83

22nd Mar 2021, 18:26

OzzyOzBorn

That’s true in the context of inbound flows. People on the island like to leave it from time to time and visit the mainland which is also one of the reasons why there are an increase in certain frequencies on certain days as alluded to by LFC.

It’s not unusual to see plenty of people visiting both Manchester and Liverpool for nights out etc. At least back in the old days. The trough for inbound leisure to the island coincides with the domestic party season.

OzzyOzBorn

22nd Mar 2021, 21:01

Thanks for posting that document, manx crab. Doesn't sound promising for S2021 tourist visitors, but good to be informed.

Might see you in 2022!

Tinwald

23rd Mar 2021, 11:46

'People on the island like to leave it from time to time and visit the mainland' - oooh! How quaint! You could have been even more patronizing and wrote 'The natives sometimes like to visit civilisation once and a while' - fella, its like Alcatraz here.

Bear in mind that over half the population here aren't manxies and they wouldn't have enough ferries to cope with the outflow when the Douglas mafia finally realise that this Rock in the middle of the irish sea can't be a shangri la and keep that nasty virus out for ever. For the locals who live within400 yards of their entire family life has pretty much gone on OK but htere are many here who haven't seen children and relatives 'across' for well over a year.

As for when we are going to be allowed out and you lot come in - please let we natives know cos you'll probably get to hear before we do.

Yessir, The Rock, freedom to go quietly mad and not do very much and certainly it ain't flourish.

Asturias56

23rd Mar 2021, 17:48

84,000 people is a pretty small base to support a variety of routes - without tourists you'd expect a couple of flights day

easyflyer83

23rd Mar 2021, 19:00

I’m just speaking from experience. Weekend flights are usually well patronised by people who live on the Island who seek city culture. Incidentally, weekend flights inbound from KEF usually have a good number of Icelandic’s who want a break from the metropolis that is Reykjavik.

GrahamK

23rd Mar 2021, 22:10

Asturias56

To put that into perspective, thats roughly 20k less than the population of Carlisle

Mr Optimistic

24th Mar 2021, 14:41

There's always the ferry! The fast craft is dry docked in Liverpool but the mighty ben-my-chree ploughs to and from Heysham everyday. Haven't been able to visit my brother for a year and judging by the mood music don't think that will change this year.

pabely

31st Mar 2021, 18:46

Has Loganair successfully got LHR slots long term?

manx crab

20th Apr 2021, 20:02

OzzyOzBorn

updated border document issued , subject to Tynwald approval.

hope for you anyway

https://covid19.gov.im/media/1573/exit-framework.pdf

kar42

21st Apr 2021, 10:17

New Link

https://covid19.gov.im/media/1687/exit-framework.pdf

BAladdy

1st May 2021, 21:48

Loganair have over the last week removed a number of flights from sale for the S21 schedule from the IOM. So far they have made the following changes:

Liverpool - Frequency reduced from up to 20 x Weekly to 2 x Daily

Manchester - Frequency reduced from up to 26 x Weekly to 2 x Daily

Southampton - New 3 x Weekly service is no longer available to book

RVF750

2nd May 2021, 10:54

The Ettyl/Stobart/Flybe/Loganair/Eastern fight is only just about to start. It's going to be messy, bloody and will probably last a year or two until the survivors become apparent. I suspect we'll be either the benefactor af plenty of cheap flights this year or we'll be more likely underserved and ignored.

Tinwald

2nd May 2021, 11:30

Left to the clowns in Douglas and the 'Big Girl' it'll be underserved and ignored - but 'open skies' rules OK even if theres nothing in them.

milleriom

2nd May 2021, 13:13

I agree about the clowns and about the 'Big Girl' but otherwise we disagree as my reasons are not your ones - and we are polar opposites on Open Skies so on that we disagree again. Hopefully you will be far less temper tantrumIng and inappropriately rude to me this time. I shall wager you real money that Flybe will not come here unless Loganair left and given that Ettyl and Stobart are about to be the same thing Ettyl will surely be planning to do Dublin - IOM and most probably Carlisle - IOM as they own the former and will be building out a quite serious network from there. Both those routes are non competing so nothing at all to-do with your bottomless hatred of and unproven allegations against Open Skies - an obsession which frankly gets more sad, more boring and more anti the Great Manx Public every time that you repeat it.
SO, the only route with definite competition is likely to be Liverpool where the large cake is more than good enough for both Loganair and easyJet to operate and will continue to serve everyone very well on every metric If the Manx Public felt like you we would hear lots of them saying that they dislike the routes and/ or frequencies and / or prices in the broadcast media and in the print media and of course socially yet none seem to do so except a few sad examples of monopoly Manx Airlines types sentimental for those long gone days - including a certain MHK. Those days are gone for good - sorry to feel so moved to try and bring a dose of realism to your views on this topic.

SWBKCB

2nd May 2021, 13:49

given that Ettyl and Stobart are about to be the same thing Ettyl will surely be planning to do Dublin - IOM and most probably Carlisle - IOM as they own the former and will be building out a quite serious network from there.

Are there any indications coming out of IOM as to what Ettyl plan to do with Stobart (or CAX?), or are we all just assuming they will be using a post-EIR Stobart for IOM/CAX operations?

When Stobart owned both CAX and Stobart Air, they considered the ATR far too big for CAX operations (but there again, they're hardly the gold standard...)

Flightrider

2nd May 2021, 17:38

I think you're presuming that the deal for Ettyl to acquire Stobart Air will actually go through. I've yet to find anyone who believes that will be the case.

Definitely a few interesting months ahead - will be fascinating to watch.

pabely

2nd May 2021, 18:09

I will keep my ear to the ground in Victoria Street & Athol Street, but the locals will know what it is Iike with skeet!

Tinwald

2nd May 2021, 18:39

milleriom

I had to go back and check what you were on about - and you still sound like a patronizing, pompous, know-it-all.

milleriom

3rd May 2021, 07:28

Tinwald said: ""you still sound like a patronizing, pompous, know-it-all''

You must mean that I ''still sound like a patronizing, pompous, know-it-all'' because I hold an entirely reasonable but diametrically opposite view to yours on what is in the best interests of the IOM public as regards the Open Skies policy.

When you launch into such flagrantly nasty, intolerant and insulting personal attacks on someone whose views are held by many but are different from yours it begs the questions a) as to any actual merits of your views and b) as to what you are doing on any online discussion forum.

It looks as if you really need to post on one that is available exclusively for yourself so that you can make yourself happy by seeing only echo chambers mirroring the same dogmatic views as your own - because all of them then would be your own!

I can easily and rapidly set-up a forum like that exclusively for you if you like. Free of charge. On the house. As a token of my esteem for you.

Tolerance and acceptance that online forums are for the exchange of a variety of views are obviously very much not within the scope and compass of your limited understanding which is very, very strange for any online forum participant. Even one who obviously thinks himself worthy of the handle 'Tinwald' which implies a self-appointed representative of the Great Manx Public. Now THAT is utterly pompous. And delusional.

Your obsession with killing Open Skies will continue to prove very disappointing to you as it is not going to happen.

I need to say goodbye for now - I have to fly shortly. Literally. Thanks to IOMG's successful policies.

Asturias56

3rd May 2021, 07:35

Girls, girls ...... basic rule of PPrune - play the ball, not the man.

The Mods don't like personal abuse

SWBKCB

3rd May 2021, 07:47

Flightrider

Fair point! That's what happens to you when you read the Flybe thread.... :eek:

milleriom

18th May 2021, 06:35

https://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/19306476.flights-summer---carlisle-airports-new-owner-sets-vision/

willy wombat

18th May 2021, 07:08

The suggestion in that article that Carlisle faces the same sort of challenges as IOM seems to miss the fact that IOM is surrounded by sea.

BAladdy

28th May 2021, 20:56

Looks like Loganair have scrapped there plans to base a all ATR72 fleet from July. All flights now showing as being operated by either a ATR42 or ER4

lfc84

28th May 2021, 21:30

More cuts on the rock

Saabdriver1

29th May 2021, 08:28

Still the plan for IOM to get 72-6s by autumn. Decision to get the aircraft delayed until IOM border re-opening dates and process was clearer, and that means the aircraft arrival is in turn later.

lfc84

29th May 2021, 09:03

border reopening is currently scheduled for 28 June

lfc84

16th Jun 2021, 20:40

Confirmed ...Open for those that have had 2 jabs more than 2 weeks before travel

Full details of arrangements for other adults and children will be published in the next day or so

vikingraider99

17th Jun 2021, 09:32

xxxxxxxxxxx

Tonyq

17th Jun 2021, 11:48

There will be a full announcement later today, but basically, anyone from within the Common Travel Area who has had two jabs of an approved vaccine, and two weeks have elapsed since the second one, can enter the Island, from 28th June, with minimal formality. IOM residents can go in the opposite direction on the same basis. People who don't meet these criteria must follow the current rules i.e. family members, new residents only, with isolation until a negative test. There will inevitably be some 'small print' but that's the gist of it.

These changes should see some uptick in air travel, but it's clearly hard to quantify. Depending on what happens in the UK, in the coming weeks, this should only be a fairly short term, interim step.

pabely

17th Jun 2021, 12:38

EZY showing schedules restarted to The Rock from 28/6, I know that doesn't mean alot but if things pan out there could be a surge in bookings thus price rises so now could be a good time to get a booking in!

pabely

27th Jun 2021, 22:49

As forecast EZY startup again from 28/6

lfc84

27th Jun 2021, 22:54

I'm on it
Can't wait

IOMX

28th Jun 2021, 09:13

Start up in a loose term! If you look there are currently no Liverpool flights on Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday and no Gatwick on a Tuesday for a couple of weeks or Saturday for 3 weeks. Given they have aircraft sat idle all over the place it really demonstrates their 'commitment to the island'!

kcockayne

28th Jun 2021, 11:21

Yes, & genuinely not trying to rub salt in, EZY are operating multiple flights into Jersey, sometimes ten a day. However, they did start in a small way & gradually built up. I hope the same goes for the IoM.

pabely

28th Jun 2021, 12:41

IOMX

Even during good times those services were rarely full. Your traditional primart customer makes a long weekend or goes by boat.
Can't see much Stag & Hen traffic or connecting to Benidorm for for a while yet. EZY will know the demand and if it does pick up then will be able to turn the tap on. Almost everything is running at a loss currently, unless they want to use to route to give pilots hours.

Laughing Frog

28th Jun 2021, 17:09

Apparently Easy wanted more flights but Menzies haven’t got any staff to handle them so they had to delay things even more

OzzyOzBorn

28th Jun 2021, 18:28

We need politicians to allow the public in without restrictions. Until they do, the airlines are totally hamstrung. Customers can't book anything with any degree of confidence. Once restrictions are lifted - along with the threat of overnight reimposition - THEN we can criticise the carriers which we feel have not responded as we might like. Till then, keep lobbying the politicians.

Dct_Mopas

20th Jul 2021, 06:28

Looks like EZY are starting Manchester - Isle of Man flights commencing 1st November 2021. Daily flight (and sometimes twice daily).

manx crab

20th Jul 2021, 12:30

The second flight seems to leave at the same time as the first so I think it is still work in progress, (different flight numbers for each though)

pabely

20th Jul 2021, 12:36

Leaves IOM at 08:00, is that a night stop?
Just need a DUB service to upset MOL!

Dct_Mopas

20th Jul 2021, 14:15

No not a nightstop, the aircraft departs Manchester at 06:40am.

Tinwald

20th Jul 2021, 16:04

the aircraft departs Manchester at 06:40am
That'll be popular then. Times to suit...........easyjet.

lfc84

20th Jul 2021, 16:16

If people don't like it they can pay whatever Loganair charge. Simple.

Dct_Mopas

20th Jul 2021, 16:21

All easyJet aircraft set off between 6am and 7:30am to commence the days flying schedule. It’s a business maximising the amount of flying it can do each day.

lfc84

20th Jul 2021, 16:35

Similar to Heathrow departures and City before it. .....times to suit Loganair / BA

IOMX

21st Jul 2021, 08:58

Very odd comment the BA/Loganair LCY and LHR fllghts have always been timed for an early morning departure off island and evening return to the island to allow for business travel. The EZY to Manchester is one flight a day and it operates to a different time every single day! Its fine if you want a cheap fare because its a one off flight but not very suitable if you are a regular flyer . Once again EZY dropping a flight in to the IOM as a filler.

BA318

21st Jul 2021, 10:07

It’s an island of around 90,000 people. Not sure why it is expected that Easyjet plan it’s schedule around them? Perhaps they are interested in the mainland market visiting the IOM. If the island wants a different service they should subsidise/support a carrier who will operate it.

IOMX

21st Jul 2021, 14:23

I think my point has been misunderstood. I agree that with its larger aircraft you cannot except Easyjet to schedule to meet the needs of the island. But thats exactly the problem that its not really what the island needs. When you live on an island you need flights that are frequent ( at least two a day to a main destination) and operating at standard times. The concern is that Easyjet will take up a lot of capacity for those who want to travel on a cheap fare but its no use for those who want to travel regularly for business or hospital appointments. Some on this forum seem to advocate that Easyjet is the only answer to Isle of Man air travel and the risk in that case is that the island will lose connectivity. Easyjet will likely only send flights over to the Isle of Man at times when they are looking to fill in their schedule and thats obvious with the Manchester route.

BA318

21st Jul 2021, 14:30

Indeed. So either the residents need to use a service adequately for it to survive (which seems not likely given history of other routes) or the IOM Gov need to sponsor routes to make them survive at a schedule that supports the needs of the island.

IOMX

21st Jul 2021, 14:46

Well I think you will find that the IOM Gov have sponsored certain routes to ensure island needs have been met. The problem with this is that this is difficult to justify when Easyjet are offering cheaper seats on once a day erratically timed flights and skimming off passengers that could go on more frequent services.

lfc84

21st Jul 2021, 14:50

Saturday is the only day when the departure is 0640 from Manchester. Stop whining and if you don't like it book a seat on the alternative carrier

IOMX

21st Jul 2021, 15:17

Saturday is 06.40 from Manchester then the other days 14.50 then 11.40 then 13.00 then 18.10 then 15.00 then 16.00 the times are all over the place. Sorry to disappoint but its not whining this forum is for expressing views and opinions , that is what anyone is entitled to do and I will carry on doing !

JSCL

21st Jul 2021, 15:35

Very little if any business traffic right now. It's all leisure. easyJet and its pricing model exactly what the Island needs right now.

lfc84

21st Jul 2021, 15:38

As I say, if people don't like the times they can use an alternative. It's very welcome news that easyJet want to add more flights - especially in the current climate. End of story

M-JCS

22nd Jul 2021, 08:12

What alternative is that? Do you really think that IOM business, which is already on shaky legs, can afford to take easyJet flights at meaningless times as far as business connectivity is concerned? I can see a continuous migration of business from the IOM occurring, but the pensioners will have their cheap and cheerful holiday flights ---- at least for the time being.

Tinwald

22nd Jul 2021, 10:12

'Saturday is 06.40 from Manchester then the other days 14.50 then 11.40 then 13.00 then 18.10 then 15.00 then 16.00 the times are all over the place. Sorry to disappoint but its not whining this forum is for expressing views and opinions , that is what anyone is entitled to do and I will carry on doing !'...........spot on, fella!.and m-jcs as well.

'Stop whining and if you don't like it book a seat on the alternative carrier'........spot off, fella!

milleriom

27th Jul 2021, 19:47

Loganair's IOM - HEATHROW rotations are to end on 10 August

lfc84

27th Jul 2021, 20:17

Someone will be along soon to blame easyJet

Skipness One Foxtrot

27th Jul 2021, 20:59

End-end or move back to LCY?

pabely

27th Jul 2021, 21:31

LCY not showing on their booking engine, EZY chased them off with LGW flights and prices just too high to LHR to keep pax demand?

lfc84

27th Jul 2021, 21:56

Has the subsidy been stopped ?

Tonyq

28th Jul 2021, 06:51

Probably a combination of all those elements. IOMG subsidy stopped already; easyJet back on LGW, but only once daily, at present; LHR fares not attractive.

I think we all knew that, despite all the fanfare, LHR would not be sustainable.

I wonder of the IOM Airport 'new routes' scheme would mean they could get some support if they restored LCY?

JSCL

28th Jul 2021, 10:24

If its been unnerved for over 12 months..

IOMX

28th Jul 2021, 10:29

If this is the case its disastrous. For the island to only have one flight a day to London is ridiculous. And the Easyjet flight timings are once again all over the place. Leaving the island at 9.55am ( Mon/Tues/Wed) 16.45 (Thursday/Fri/Sun 18.05) 14.00 ( Sat). I am due to fly into London Heathrow in the middle of August I paid £148 return which I think is very reasonable especially when compared to the cost of rail travel across. I have just looked at the equivalent dates with Easyjet at times which are no were near as suitable and through Gatwick which is no were near as convenient and the fare is currently £126 and I suspect that will rise dramatically. If that's progress and people think thats a good outcome then I am completely lost! Lets hope somebody sorts something out fast for the island not to be connected to London with regular flights is not what it needs. Absolutely ludicrous.

CandyBender

28th Jul 2021, 11:28

Sadly confirmed......

Loganair to end Isle of Man to Heathrow route on August 11 | (http://www.iomtoday.co.im/article.cfm?id=63017&headline=Loganair%20to%20end%20Isle%20of%20Man%20to%20Heathr ow%20route%20on%20August%2011&sectionIs=news&searchyear=2021)

Alteagod

28th Jul 2021, 13:16

Is the BHD gone now as well??

Fly757X

28th Jul 2021, 14:28

No, still on sale from 25/10/21.

Alteagod

28th Jul 2021, 14:51

Ah I thought it was starting in Aug sometime.

IOMX

28th Jul 2021, 17:21

The return ticket price for some dates in August and September on Easyjet is already £182 with a once a day service to Gatwick at random times each day! So much for a great service low cost airline! Time for someone to step in and sort this mess out.

pabely

28th Jul 2021, 19:05

EZY have a good appetite into JER with flights from 5 UK airports currently, LGW being 3 daily, so where is the fault, IOM Gov not supporting inbound tourism?
Even Jet2 are in with the action.

IOMX

29th Jul 2021, 10:33

Already some return flights to London Gatwick showing as £250.00 and thats before choosing a seat which was free on BA/Loganair. So much for the low cost budget airline.... yet again!

Tonyq

29th Jul 2021, 11:15

There are also dozens of dates where a one-way flight to/from LGW is under £50, and many where it is under £30.

You must realise that we are in a transitional period where travel is slowly starting to happen again, but it'll take time for true levels and patterns of demand, to become established. While that happens, we all have to work within what we have.

It is easy to criticise the IOM Government, but no on here knows what Loganair wanted to operate LHR, and what demand was projected to be, bearing in mind that many onward connections simply aren't available or practical, at present. As a Manx Tax Payer, and regular traveller, I think they've done the right thing. If there is a need for intervention, once demand has returned to something like normal, that might be a different matter.

IOMX

29th Jul 2021, 12:55

I am not quite sure what website you are looking at but if you look at flights in August the minimum one way fare is £57 with most around £95-£120 and some up to £134 one way.

I agree that we are in a transition period and this makes it all the more important to ensure the routes have a 'helping hand'. I therefore do not agree re Heathrow or London City as an option take a look at what is going on in Teeside. There the Mayor is subsiding a London Heathrow service they now have three flights a day with Loganair because they recognise the strategic importance to the area and the potential investment the route brings. They are not even an island and have train options and yet they seem to get it!

SWBKCB

29th Jul 2021, 13:29

I therefore do not agree re Heathrow or London City as an option take a look at what is going on in Teeside. There the Mayor is subsiding a London Heathrow service they now have three flights a day with Loganair because they recognise the strategic importance to the area and the potential investment the route brings.

Is he? Evidence? Teesside, btw

lfc84

29th Jul 2021, 13:30

A picture paints a thousand words....

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/765x607/capture_717b597f82c048d050f2468a3ad6d86b10a95fca.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/763x612/capture_51ae4be334808644dc74b300f6b7e1568f8f1bc3.jpg

IOMX

29th Jul 2021, 13:35

Yes he is just do a quick google search!

IOMX

29th Jul 2021, 13:45

I literally have no idea what your picture is really showing! Just do a quick search for flights and see how much the ticket prices are. £133, £153 most are £90 one way. So I dont think your picture shows what is really going on! And I would hazard a guess they will continue to climb whilst there are no alternatives. End of as you say!

lfc84

29th Jul 2021, 13:57

Just priced up Loganair 6-8 Aug and it's £324 return IOM-LHR

kcockayne

29th Jul 2021, 17:28

pabely

It is actually 10 UK airports - Edinburgh, Glasgow, Belfast, Newcastle, Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, Bristol, Luton & Gatwick. Jet 2 serve Leeds, Newcastle, Manchester & Stansted, I believe.

Wycombe

29th Jul 2021, 19:10

....along with BHX and EMA

pabely

29th Jul 2021, 20:01

Makes it look even worse then!

AirLCY

29th Jul 2021, 20:19

JER and IOM climates are a little different, JER has always driven strong summer demand

Atlantic Explorer

30th Jul 2021, 07:33

IOMX

Does the picture really need to be explained to you? It’s quite obvious what it’s showing but that data doesn’t fit in to your agenda, so your just playing dumb?

IOMX

30th Jul 2021, 08:41

The data show displays exactly the point I am making in a very unclear way. There has been a price hike since August 11th and a lot of one way fares are over £100.To the earlier poster who said there are dozens under £50 then really I cant see that maybe I need my eyes tested? Its all a far cry from the £28 and £22 fares that were previously available. And on a separate note Easyjet are not even showing any flights at all in November on Tuesdays and Wednedsays they really do know how to offer a great service dont they?

BA318

30th Jul 2021, 10:25

So what you want is a twice daily year round service at peak times for £22 each way?

In recent times the Island has had a LCY and a LHR connection and both times it hasn’t worked because people are not willing to pay what is required to run the flights - neither the pax nor the local Gov.

If you want more than the market supplied flights then someone needs to put their hand in their pocket.

IOMX

30th Jul 2021, 11:05

No I do not want to see £22 fares on the London market it is not sustainable and its exactly that sort of fare that drives out smaller operators. The reason I made the comment about £22 and £28 tickets was because a poster earlier was claiming there are dozens of seats below £50 and that is not the case certainly in August where demand is most needed right now. The net effect is we end up with a once a day service on a 156 seater and the operator who proclaims to be a low cost budget airline starts charging £150 upward for a return ticket.

People need to understand that a transport policy that allows us to end up with one flight a day to the capital is flawed even post covid. If that means intervention to assist then I would suggest that is for the good of the island in the long term.

BA318

30th Jul 2021, 12:51

£150 return is not bad. In August I can see tickets below £50 each way. out of 31 days, 6 days have tickets below £50 one way and another 14 days below £100 one way. Certainly not bad for less than a month out at the height of summer. In September almost every day has tickets below £50.

On the route from LGW to IOM there are 5 days in august with flights under £50 one way and 16 with under £100. So please stop with the argument that there are no cheap flights. There’s plenty. In fact a majority of flights for august are under £100 one way which given the market is fairly decent.

IOMX

30th Jul 2021, 13:26

OK it seems as though I will have to go into a little more detail as you don't seem to grasp what is going on. Firstly I agree £150 is not bad but not for a once a day service at random times throughout the week I think most people would imagine a low cost provider to be sub £100 especially bearing in mind the prices I am quoting are the base costs BEFORE baggage or seat allocation if you want it.

Then lets look at the next level of detail. My analysis is looking from the point at which there is only one provider i.e 11th August i.e 21days in August. If you look there then IOM to Gatwick there are four days when the lowest fare is £57.99 with most being around £100 one way and some as high as £153.99. Then lets look at the return leg Gatwick to IOM for the 21 days there is one day where the ticket price is £33.99 and thats when it leaves at the very unhelpful hour of 8.05am . The remaining dates again vary and can be as high as £163.99. Combine these together and you end up at return ticket price for most dates between £160.00 and £250.00 before luggage or seating. I don't think that's great sorry.

So sorry no I wont stop suggesting the ticket price for a one a day service from a low cost airline is high the facts are the facts!

businessair75

30th Jul 2021, 15:05

IOMX, one of your concerns is that easyJet may end up undermining the Loganair service, presumably through lower fares. But you are quoting considerably higher fares than the average easyJet fare so what’s the problem?

IOMX

30th Jul 2021, 15:33

I am indeed concerned that Easyjet flood the market with cheap seats and take out an operator who is providing a frequent service which is what is most needed on an island. The fact that they are charging more than the average and that has happened since its gone down to only them proves my point exactly that they drive smaller higher frequency operator's out and leave a woefully inadequate badly timed one a day service.

There are quite a lot of people who fly backwards and forwards to London regularly who need an early morning and evening flight for various reasons. Take a look at Guernsey and Jersey who have this arrangement.

BA318

30th Jul 2021, 15:37

and look at how those islands do it. Jersey has a thriving tourist market and Guernsey has a state owned loss making airline. IOM either needs to subsidise or create increased demand.

SWBKCB

30th Jul 2021, 15:55

EasyJet are a business out to make money, not an instrument of Manx economic policy. If the needs of the Manx population are as described, sombody needs to pay for it - passengers or government. If they are, I'm sure Easy would be glad to oblige.

Blame open skys if the market isn't providing what is needed.

IOMX

30th Jul 2021, 16:13

I think you make some fair points re open skies and tourism etc I certainly agree the island could market itself better. And I also agree that Easyjet are a business that needs to make money. Where we disagree is about their commercial behaviour. They were happy when there was two operators to make a return of x set against a set of lower ticket prices the minute its down to one they push up their prices and its a return of x++++. We saw this when flybe collapsed last year and they were happy to charge £600 for a one way ticket from Liverpool. They are an operator that has no pilots or crew on the island and send planes across at random times throughout the day clearly to fit against other more lucrative business they have elsewhere. Also their record in bad weather is very poor quite a lot of their flights get cancelled due to bad weather or diverted back to Gatwick because they cannot land a large jet when smaller operators can. As such the island gets a very poor deal from them in service terms.

lfc84

30th Jul 2021, 16:20

Compare it to Jersey

SWBKCB

30th Jul 2021, 17:53

As such the island gets a very poor deal from them in service terms.

The island gets what it pays for.

Buster the Bear

30th Jul 2021, 23:21

I can remember Manx operating a 146 3x weekdays to Heathrow and a single daily flight to Luton. The demand was there once upon a time.

M-JCS

31st Jul 2021, 07:14

I can remember that too, as I used it quite a lot. But the business complexion of the IOM has changed, and not for the better. Airlines don't see any profit, and so the service dries up. And Isle of Man Government don't want to see it because it might reflect badly on them.

milleriom

31st Jul 2021, 08:19

...the business complexion of the IOM has changed...

That is so true and it is exacerbated by longer-term effects of Covid19. Most businesses and public sector entities have realised the huge financial savings (of the actual costs of travel and of very large amounts of executive time expended by travel) and are instead mandating more permanent use of video and other communications instead of business travel. And many also see their Duty of Care being best implemented in this regard by keeping people away from travelling to best protect them and of course the business itself.

There will always be a lot of business travel but it is not hard to see it never recovering to anything like the same levels as pre Covid19.

On the topic of IOM - London routes, I have been nodding in agreement to at least some extent with all the very good points that have been made above. The island of course ideally needs daily connectivity with London and at desirable times that allow both day trips and easy same day connections. That requires two daily rotations with an early morning and early evening both outbound and inbound. This will surely not happen with easyJet so the best we can hope for is someone re-starting a service to London City Airport. But without something like 'underwritten revenue guarantees' from IOMG or the private sector this is not likely to happen. With the former BA service which was wet-lease operated by Eastern, I always thought that having to make profits for both BA & Eastern was in itself inherently unstable. And so it proved.

lfc84

31st Jul 2021, 08:35

What does the government need to do to replicate the variety and frequency of Jersey?

milleriom

31st Jul 2021, 09:17

A great question and a tough one as you imply. I'd speculate that the answer includes:
1. Re-locate the island to be nearer the bigger and richer populations of London, all of southern England and western France :)
2. Implement a similar superior climate? :)
3. Create an economy with a comparable size and make-up to Jersey's - e.g. their very much larger Banking, Corporate Services, Insurance, Investment & Tourism sectors?

All quite challenging asks!

BA318

31st Jul 2021, 09:48

Just advertising the island would help. I’ve seen Jersey adverts in business magazines and travel magazines for years. Never once have I seen anything about IOM.

I don’t even think the climate is much of a push factor. There is plenty of demand for the wild outdoors and adventure type holidays in the wet.

To me it seems the IOM has dined off the TT races and done nothing else tourism wise.

ATNotts

31st Jul 2021, 10:51

To be honest the TT, taking place when it does actually puts me off going. The cost of the crossing by the Steam Packet is another factor.

milleriom

31st Jul 2021, 11:12

Agree fully. The figures are stark: The tourist accommodation sector only accounted for 0.3% of the Gross National Income (GNI), and employed 629 people in 2016. In that year an estimated 135,000 tourists stayed in paid accommodation on the island; in addition, almost 100,000 stayed with friends or family, and there were almost 60,000 business visitors including some day trippers.

The 2019 TT races attracted about 46,174 visitors to the Isle of Man for the TT, of which 64.9% had visited the TT previously. Most came by ferry not flights. On average visitors stayed for an estimated 6.8 nights and spent a total of £801 on their trip. This resulted in an estimated spend of £37.5 million, up from £37.1 million in 2018, allegedly contributing an estimated £27.1 million to the local economy.

IOMX

31st Jul 2021, 15:55

I fully agree with all these points if the island had better marketing it could strengthen its tourist industry and that would certainly boost the demand for air travel. Its beyond me that an island that has so much to offer and in my opinion far more than Jersey does so little to attract visitors. There is Snaefell, the mountain railway, the electric tram, the steam railways, fantastic seaside towns like Peel and Port Erin the island is steeped in heritage everywhere. Plenty to market. And then the government should be aiming to attract inward strategic investment for business and encouraging more people to locate here.

However it will never achieve any of this with one flight a day to London and the South East! With a little bit of thought and creativity the whole situation could be transformed and there would be room for Easyjet and Heathrow flights making everyone happy. Not difficult really just needs some strategic vision!

SWBKCB

31st Jul 2021, 17:17

So what's happened to Mr T.V. Douglas?

ATNotts

31st Jul 2021, 18:50

I remember Mr T V Kelly being the contact on the post-Christmas TV advertising campaigns back in the 1970s! When did he retire, and what a coincidence that Mr Douglas had the same initials?

CabinCrewe

31st Jul 2021, 19:24

I visited a few years ago, but as a tourist, wouldn't be in a rush to return.
Has it changed significantly?

horatio_b

1st Aug 2021, 17:40

Oh for a return to the golden age of air travel!. No need to visit the terminal or pass through security. Just get off the coach and on to the plane:

https://www.huntleyarchives.com/preview.asp?image=1092711&itemw=4&itemf=0002&itemstep=1&itemx=2

virginblue

1st Aug 2021, 20:37

Buster the Bear

Capacity-wise, 4 BAe 146-200 flights pretty much equal two daily A319 flights which I guess we will see by easyJet post-COVID19.

But the main question is: At what fares?

We are talking about the late 1980s here, if I am not mistaken. If folks think that 100 GBP nowadays is expensive, tickets back then must have been less than 35 GBP, taking inflation into consideration. Not sure if this was the fare available 4-6 weeks in advance on all flights (instead of a "farecracker" fare to LTN on selected flights well in advance.

Haven't a clue

2nd Aug 2021, 07:47

IIRC in the 90's the APEX return fare to London on Manx was £166, otherwise around £280. If you were a member of "Club Sovereign" you could book a spouse fare for your better half which ran out at around £430 return for 2.

In the Flybe days I used to think around £200 return was acceptable for a booking close to the departure date. BA was occasionally a bit more depending on demand. Loganair took £250 from me for flights this week (and charged me extra for my seat).

Since then we've had £20 odd of APD added plus ever increasing airport charges (LCY and IOM took almost £60 on a return before the pandemic). How airlines make money at that level is beyond me.

Flightrider

2nd Aug 2021, 08:26

Happen to have a Manx Airlines 1993 timetable in the garage, and that's back in the days when airlines used to publish fares as well.

IOM-LHR was £103 Economy Single
£180 Day return
£168 Pex Return
£158 Apex Return
£134 Super Break Return

Using an on-line inflation calculator thingy, that gets you to £180 one-way, £315 day return, £293 Pex Return, £276 Apex Return and even the cheapest return at £234 in today's money. That's just straight inflation and no adjustment for APD, airport taxes etc.

Even the Farecracker to Luton was £122 return so £213 in today's money.

Looking at it another way, anything less than £200 return nowadays is a bargain compared to 1993 pricing.

M-JCS

2nd Aug 2021, 09:19

3. Create an economy with a comparable size and make-up to Jersey's - e.g. their very much larger Banking, Corporate Services, Insurance, Investment & Tourism sectors?

Exactly right. But you may recall the IOM had all that and the government drove it all away. Think of it this way ------ what business of any substance has re-located to the IOM in the last 5 years? 10 years?

virginblue

2nd Aug 2021, 10:00

If I have my math right, with the above-quoted 135k tourists annually minus the TT lot, we are looking at ~ 250 daily tourist arrivals at the IOM. That sounds pretty insignificant to me...

BA318

2nd Aug 2021, 10:08

lfc84

2nd Aug 2021, 12:29

easyJet low fare finder will tell you there's around 8,500 fares under £50 to London. The combination of quantity, price and ease of booking is better than ever

IOMX

2nd Aug 2021, 15:31

easyJet low fare finder will tell you there's around 8,500 fares under £50 to London. The combination of quantity, price and ease of booking is better than ever

Interesting. Would that be before I have to scroll through a screen that wants me to pay at least £4.99 for a seat ( Free on BA) then a screen to charge me at least £18.74 each way for a bag (free on BA) a screen for car hire and covid insurance? And there are no fares under £50 in August and if its the only London flight that will soon become the case in the coming months.

And then there is the transit time. Last time I flew Easyget to Gatwick when there was no other option I was 'held' in the crowded departure room at the lower level of Ronaldsway for around 30-40 minutes. I never did that with BA. Then when we landed at Gatwick at around 10pm at night I had to wait for a transit bus to arrive everyone to offload and then be transported to the terminal. By the time I was at the railway station to go into London it was gone 11pm a full one hour after landing.

Would that be the ease of journey and experience you are referring to?

SWBKCB

2nd Aug 2021, 15:43

I remember Mr T V Kelly being the contact on the post-Christmas TV advertising campaigns back in the 1970s! When did he retire, and what a coincidence that Mr Douglas had the same initials?
Ah, so was it "Mr T V Kelly, Douglas"? At least shows there was a decent level of promotion at one point for it to (almost) have stuck.

VickersVicount

2nd Aug 2021, 16:13

Would that be the ease of journey and experience you are referring to?
I suspect "ease of booking" and "ease of journey" could be considered as completely different

lfc84

2nd Aug 2021, 16:19

Interesting. Would that be before I have to scroll through a screen that wants me to pay at least £4.99 for a seat ( Free on BA) then a screen to charge me at least £18.74 each way for a bag (free on BA) a screen for car hire and covid insurance? And there are no fares under £50 in August and if its the only London flight that will soon become the case in the coming months.

And then there is the transit time. Last time I flew Easyget to Gatwick when there was no other option I was 'held' in the crowded departure room at the lower level of Ronaldsway for around 30-40 minutes. I never did that with BA. Then when we landed at Gatwick at around 10pm at night I had to wait for a transit bus to arrive everyone to offload and then be transported to the terminal. By the time I was at the railway station to go into London it was gone 11pm a full one hour after landing.

Would that be the ease of journey and experience you are referring to?

There's at least one date with fares under £50.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/421x505/capture_e21b70653a4730f2aa177dc8f46a36395cf5e2cf.jpg

IOMX

2nd Aug 2021, 17:15

Indeed when there is a choice of operators to London. The minute its only one its funny how that's not case don't you think? And £41.48 for a return bag I assume you don't care about that because you don't need one..... maybe others do. The facts are the facts to quote you yourself..... end of!

And for clarity to some of the other posters I really don't want to see cheap fares that is exactly the problem they lead to a worsening of competition and poorer service. I think its not unreasonable to pay around £150 for a return ticket and experience some sort of service i.e two flights a day one in the morning one in the evening free seat allocation and baggage.

BA318

2nd Aug 2021, 17:15

Interesting. Would that be before I have to scroll through a screen that wants me to pay at least £4.99 for a seat ( Free on BA) then a screen to charge me at least £18.74 each way for a bag (free on BA) a screen for car hire and covid insurance? And there are no fares under £50 in August and if its the only London flight that will soon become the case in the coming months.

And then there is the transit time. Last time I flew Easyget to Gatwick when there was no other option I was 'held' in the crowded departure room at the lower level of Ronaldsway for around 30-40 minutes. I never did that with BA. Then when we landed at Gatwick at around 10pm at night I had to wait for a transit bus to arrive everyone to offload and then be transported to the terminal. By the time I was at the railway station to go into London it was gone 11pm a full one hour after landing.

Would that be the ease of journey and experience you are referring to?

BA prices don’t include bags or seat selection unless you chose the higher fares just like EasyJet. The headline BA price is usually Economy Basic with the choice to pay more for Economy Plus (which includes a bag and a seat you can chose 48 before departure).

IOMX

2nd Aug 2021, 17:17

If you are a BA card member it is all free!

IOMX

2nd Aug 2021, 17:24

I suspect "ease of booking" and "ease of journey" could be considered as completely different

You may be right but surely thats factored into the whole customer experience. And that's all before you consider Easyjet don't employ any island crew or pilots. Or count the number of flights diverted back to London Gatwick because they cannot land in bad weather when smaller planes can. I do believe Easyjet have a role to play for cheap holiday flights but not as the only operator and crowding others out by flooding the market with cheap prices then pushing them up when they are the monopoly operator leaving us all with a very inferior service to London and the South East.

businessair75

2nd Aug 2021, 17:27

If you are a BA card member it is all free!

And if there were that many BA exec club members on the island, they’d have BA service.

Plus your experience at LGW is probably more down to the fact you are arriving from a CTA destination and therefore you need to be bussed to domestic arrivals which avoids any delays incurred to you at immigration.

When BA had extensive domestics at Gatters they too often had to bus, even if they were on an airbridge stand.

IOMX

2nd Aug 2021, 17:36

And if there were that many BA exec club members on the island, they’d have BA service.

Plus your experience at LGW is probably more down to the fact you are arriving from a CTA destination and therefore you need to be bussed to domestic arrivals which avoids any delays incurred to you at immigration.

When BA had extensive domestics at Gatters they too often had to bus, even if they were on an airbridge stand.

Quite possibly but waiting for a plane load of 156 people to disembark is no fun . And when I travelled into London City I would land at City around 8.20am and be in the centre of London at 9am ! No chance with the Gatwick operation would be more like 10.30am or 11am.

BA318

2nd Aug 2021, 17:47

If you are a BA card member it is all free!

Buy an EasyJet Plus card for £215 and get it all included.

There were not even enough BA Exec Club members to sustain an E170 twice a day so it’s not likely to happen. Basically your option is use the EasyJet service and hope they get enough pax that they look at going twice daily. Or lobby your gov for more subsidies.

IOMX

2nd Aug 2021, 18:15

Buy an EasyJet Plus card for £215 and get it all included.

There were not even enough BA Exec Club members to sustain an E170 twice a day so it’s not likely to happen. Basically your option is use the EasyJet service and hope they get enough pax that they look at going twice daily. Or lobby your gov for more subsidies.

Sort of proves my point doesn't it pay £215 for an EasyJet Plus card!!!!!!!!!!!! Such a great airline................ I cannot understand why so many people on this forum think they are so great I think I live in a parallel universe! I used to travel London City to Isle of Man on the BA service payed about £150 return fare got a good service. Not perfect every time all air travel has its challenges from time to time but on the whole a good reliable well timed service. And now all I can choose is a one a day to Gatwick and a much longer end to end travel time.

virginblue

2nd Aug 2021, 19:16

Not really sure what your point is. Apparently BA did not make any money by getting you to LCY for 150 GBP and throwing in seating, bags etc. for free. Otherwise they would still be around, raking in profits. If all the IoM can sustain is a London service by easyJet, it certainly is not easyJet's fault.

As we are just at it, British Airways served IOM-LGW for many years when there was no LHR service at all and LCY was served by the likes of VLM and Euromanx.So not really sure what the issue with LGW is. It used to be the island's "flagship" route for quite some time after it lost, like many other UK destinations, its LHR service.

SWBKCB

2nd Aug 2021, 19:39

How many combinations of London destinations and airlines have been covered in this thread? How many are left? Bit of a clue there - IOM-LON is not a goldmine. As has been mentioned before (!), you get what you pay for, not what you think you deserve.

lfc84

2nd Aug 2021, 20:08

Another one not mentioned.... IOM - STN Flybe

IOMX

2nd Aug 2021, 20:14

virginblue

Seems it all needs explaining a bit more . When BA were operating out of LCY they were up against EasyJet with two flights going into Gatwick. With two flights a day albeit at bad times ( leaving the island at 9.55am and 9.05pm ) EasyJet had over 300 seats in each direction and were running fares at around £25 each way which is not sustainable ( proven by their behaviour when they are the only ones left ) I would argue that’s unfair competition from EasyJet as all they are doing is dropping in an extra leg as a filler to keep the plane flying . Do you really think the island is of real interest to them if it was they would overnight a plane here something they have never ever done and will probably never ever do .

This caused the LCY to have lower load factors . Had EasyJet offered one rotation and fares around a more sustainable level of say £80 then BA LcY would have worked .

And sorry Gatwick has never been a flagship airport it’s more for short haul holiday flights . Heathrow and to some extent LCY are the flagship airports .

businessair75

2nd Aug 2021, 20:35

I’m sorry but if BA couldn’t make IOM-LCY with the USP and selling point that London City has, then it is not easyJet that is the problem.

Indeed, if BA can’t make IOM-LCY work with the premium that some LCY flights can command, then the fares on IOM-LON were already depressed and probably through no fault of easyJet.

It sounds like you just dislike easyJet. There is a lot of respect for easy because inherently they are a good outfit with a good operation. Aside from J class or a silver and above status, there is very little difference between them and BA in terms of experience.

I understand your concerns about easy but recently history tells us that IOM-South East isn’t a goldmine.

There are stronger links between IOM-NW England where easy seems to co-exist with Loganair.

virginblue

2nd Aug 2021, 20:52

IOMX

British Airways apparently thought otherwise. They were running BAe 146s on IOM-LGW for many years. It allowed me to do stuff like IOM-LGW-MLA. And JER and GCI have been doing okay with LGW services for many years. In normal times, it is unrealistic to expect regional air services into LHR. So it is either LCY or LGW (as apparently STN. LTN and SEN are not satisfactory).

As for easyJet's predatory pricing, if enough punters were desperate to have flights into LCY at perfect times and willing to cough up the dough to keep BA on the route, BA would still be around. Apparently that was not the case. Do you expect folks who do not mind travelling via LGW or departing at 09:55 to cross-subsidise your more exquisite travel preferences and forego a LCC offering?

To me it sounds as if your expectations are that there should be a full-service operator with a LHR route (ideally enjoying a monopoly with protection from LCCs) and still offering easyJet prices. The concept that comes somewhat close to such expectations was Euromanx, but as we all know they did not last very long...

IOMX

2nd Aug 2021, 20:59

businessair75

Sorry I completely disagree with you my points are laid out below

1) I agree Easyjet as an airline are fine and there is generally little difference with them and BA if you look at travel to Europe for example. I actually have no issue with them in that regard and I am happy to use them . But the Easyjet model is not right for the island because it is based on dropping 156 seat plane loads into a market at random and erratic times and in the case of London this on two rotations is too many.

2) Easyjet timings are not suitable for business or day returners or people living in London and the south east who come to the island regularly to visit friends and family. The end to end experience on the island short flight is very poor when compared to BA or Loganair or any other small higher frequency airline. If Easyjet are so great why dont they overnight a plane and offer early morning and early evening flights to support the island-they just wont I can tell you that.

3) It absolutely is an issue if Easyjet run fares at circa £25 and then when nobody else is left to compete they push their prices up surely you must see that not right? So yes that is a fault of theirs sorry its plainly obvious to me!

4) In normal times which hopefully will return soon there is room for an Easyjet flight ( one rotation which I have never argued against) to be supplemented by two rotations of a smaller airline ( early morning and early evening) but it seems most of you are very selfish and just want cheap fares which leaves those of us needing a more frequent service with nothing! If the IOMG had supported LHR for a little while longer the situation post covid would have improved and we would all have what we want!

Maybe a few of you posters on here should talk to a wider community I know for sure there are a lot of people who think along the same lines as me.

businessair75

2nd Aug 2021, 21:09

Pre-covid, easyJet did nightstop some LGW based aircraft downroute. The thing is, does the IOM need it? Admittedly, with an earlier LGW-IOM, the return into London can still arrive at a respectable time.

One of the easy nightstoppers was INV and that was subsidised in some way I believe. So maybe the IOM government could step in.

A frequent service is valuable to an island such as IOM but I am a little dubious as to the widespread demand for day trips, particularly these days. It’s almost a romantic view.

IOMX

2nd Aug 2021, 21:24

virginblue

Actually you are wrong and if you read some of my comments above you would understand my position. I do not expect a full service LHR route with Easyjet prices far from it. I recognise you need to pay a little more ( note I said I paid around £150 flying to/from LCY). Around or just above that level with two flights a day one early morning one early evening makes sense leaving Easyjet to offer fares of around £80 each way on a one a day LGW route. I dont think thats unreasonable at all and I suspect would work well for all parties.

businessair75

Sorry I do not agree with you at all. The clue is in the name Isle of Man- its an island and needs to be able to offer regular services take a look at any other island the size of ours serving the main capital market, they all have regular services. It also seems you fail to understand that there is a lot of financial activity which requires the finance sector having good connectivity. I know some people will say thats the role of zoom but I just don' t believe that will be the end of air travel nor do many travel/business experts. Sorry its not a romantic view of wanting to 'commute' perhaps you should do a little more research to understand it all. For example did you know 4500 passengers a month used LCY pre covid are they all romantics ?

BA318

2nd Aug 2021, 21:40

and yet there is no route to LCY so evidently those £150 return fares you keep quoting were not sustainable.

You also seem to be forgetting it’s a pandemic. Take my route LHR-ARN (Stockholm). I travelled weekly last year on the route. Pre Covid there were around 10 flights a day and times to suit everyone and I usually paid £100 return. Now it’s one flight a day on BA and one on SAS with a few cancellations as well and typical fares are more like £400 return. The market is in flux.

Pre-Covid there were millions of pax on that route per year and we’re still down to one flight a day.

You’d be best place to compare yourselves to Guernsey who outside of their own loss making state owned carrier have a flight to LCY and EDI twice a week (summer seasonal) and a Jersey link.

IOMX

2nd Aug 2021, 21:50

The reason BA LCY was a challenge at times was because it did three rotations. If it was two then I suspect the picture would be somewhat different. I fully recognise its an issue with the pandemic which is why I think for strategic reasons the IOMG should have carried on supporting a little longer. Guernsey clearly recognise this and have effectively subsidised to the tune of £50m I doubt any IOM subsidies would ever get anywhere near that.

And on the subject of the pandemic ask yourself this. If we found ourselves with another lockdown and the need to fly critical workers from London and the South East which happened for most of last year and earlier this year who would operate the flights. Yes Loganair got a subsidy but do you really think Easyjet would do it subsidy or no subsidy?

CabinCrewe

2nd Aug 2021, 21:50

a flight to LCY and EDI twice a week (summer seasonal) and a Jersey link.
And neither of the first two will be about in a year or so

virginblue

2nd Aug 2021, 21:54

1) But the Easyjet model is not right for the island because it is based on dropping 156 seat plane loads into a market at random and erratic times and in the case of London this on two rotations is too many.

The easyJet model must not be right for the island, it must be right for easyJet.

2) Easyjet timings are not suitable for business or day returners or people living in London and the south east who come to the island regularly to visit friends and family. The end to end experience on the island short flight is very poor when compared to BA or Loganair or any other small higher frequency airline. If Easyjet are so great why dont they overnight a plane and offer early morning and early evening flights to support the island-they just wont I can tell you that.

If easyJet can earn just as much money (or, given the reduced costs, even more) by not overnighting an aircraft at IOM, why should they do? It is absolutely against their basic principles to overnight aircraft at an airport that is not a base.

3) It absolutely is an issue if Easyjet run fares at circa £25 and then when nobody else is left to compete they push their prices up surely you must see that not right? So yes that is a fault of theirs sorry its plainly obvious to me!

What percentage of tickets were sold at 25 GBP and what was the average ticket price on the route? That is the real question. Any airline can offer a handful of tickets for a nominal fare, but usually such tickets a merely a marketing move and say little about the actual pricing policy.

4) In normal times which hopefully will return soon there is room for an Easyjet flight ( one rotation which I have never argued against) to be supplemented by two rotations of a smaller airline ( early morning and early evening) but it seems most of you are very selfish and just want cheap fares which leaves those of us needing a more frequent service with nothing!

Post-COVID the slots would have either reverted to their original operators or Loganair would have sold them for millions the minute they had grandfathered them.

And I really cannot believe that you expect people who are happy to use easyJet to pay significantly more for flying at times and to an airport they are not interested - effectively subsidizing you so that you can travel on your prefered route.

If the IOMG had supported LHR for a little while longer the situation post covid would have improved and we would all have what we want!

Well, either it is open skies or it is not. What is your solution here? Back to route licencing ?

IOMX

3rd Aug 2021, 06:29

virginblue

You clearly do not understand my position so lets spell it out again.

1) Of course the Easyjet model has to be right for their business I am not advocating they change it! I am making the point that a one a day randomly timed infrequent service for a capital city to island is really not right for the island.

2) Agreed I am not suggesting they overnight but by the same measure the island really needs an early morning flight to the capital so thats another reason to have two operators

3) I have no idea what % of tickets are sold at unsustainable prices. Ask lfc84 (aka Easyjet Marketing Director) they are the ones who keep going on about loads of cheap tickets !

4) I am not asking people who use Easyjet to subsidise me! I am saying Easyjet should not be undertaking predatory pricing to drive others out. Rather have a daily Easyjet flight and charge a reasonable fare say £80-£100 for those who are not bothered by timings etc and allow a smaller operator to go to a premium airport for £150-£200 for those that need a more regular service. Remember 4500 people were using LCY a month so there is the demand but instead of three rotations run it at two.

5) I have no idea whether its open skies or not I just think it needs some common sense and the IOMG to issue light direction.

It seems most on this forum either fail to understand when you live on an island you need to take a long term strategic view and offer regular connectivity to a capital city or you are part of the Easyjet marketing department! Whichever it is I fear your solution which appears to be Easyjet only will disadvantage the island.

SWBKCB

3rd Aug 2021, 07:06

5) I have no idea whether its open skies or not I just think it needs some common sense and the IOMG to issue light direction.

Free markets don't work like that...

Clearly the free market isn't delivering what you think the island needs so someone needs to intervene. Either restictive licencing or cash incentives.

virginblue

3rd Aug 2021, 07:21

If the travel needs for the island community were indeed as pressing and the situation as desperate as you describe, the IOM government would have reacted by now, funding an Aurigny-style airline with taxpayer's money just as the States of Guernsey have done. Or at least offered financial incentives for airlines to operate the service you desire or put out a PSO tender like places such as LDY, NQY or DND have done in order to keep a London service (I am not sure if technically a PSO would be possible if there is a competing service to an airport in the same metropolitan area (and if the EU's PSO rules apply to the IOM).

None of this has happened, so apparently the IOM government is, unlike you, not to unhappy with the route network and the services provided.

lfc84

3rd Aug 2021, 07:23

Iom incentivises / reduces landing fees for new routes if they hit passenger thresholds

M-JCS

3rd Aug 2021, 07:45

virginblue

In saying that you clearly do not know the IOM government. They are not inclined to act in any case that might prove beneficial to Island-based business. It is also not the case that they are not unhappy with the route network. In actual fact they haven't a clue. They could have taken very simple measures in the past to enhance air links, but failed, as they have a habit of doing, to do so.

Valid points have been made by all above. But the basic problem remains the same; the IOM economy is not conducive to business travel, and so the likes of easyJet thrive amongst those on the Island looking for cheap and cheerful transportation off-Island. In that regard, LGW is just fine, because it is "off" Island. But it is a very poor substitute for business travellers needing to get to and from the capital at reasonable times. This is all exacerbated by airports like LCY and LGW (who used to be under the same ownership you might recall) dis-incentivising smaller aircraft using their airports (Flybe at LGW is a case in point). My own prediction is that the IOM will continue in a downward spiral, so that business without proper air links will leave the Island, which in turn will cause further deterioration of the IOM economy and even less reason for carriers to offer business travel links. When you see companies like Apple and Google demanding that their employees return to the office, it becomes apparent that video conferencing is not going to be the substitute for business travel that some would have us believe.

IOMX

3rd Aug 2021, 08:23

Totally agree with you it needs someone to take a long term strategic view of the situation . The island could have more investment more tourism and more flights a win-win for everyone if it was thought through properly . There is time yet let’s hope someone fixes it .

virginblue

3rd Aug 2021, 09:13

All valid points. But realistically, days of 1980s/1990s style regional travel are a thing of the past. Many airports in Europe that used to have airline service and hub links have lost their links to the outside world completely. For a really small market like the IoM with very little tourism, the overall service is not too bad in the light of the developments of the past decade. One has to be realistic. There are quite a few routes that I could use at my hometown airport in the past that have disappeared with the decline of regional air services, whereas many new LCC routes to obscure places in Eastern Europe have come online that are completely useless to me. But apparently my travel preferences / needs are no longer lucrative for airlines and airports, while those of others are money-makers. Endless moaning will not stop the world from turning.

lfc84

Landing fees are only a drop in the ocean if you want an airline like easyJet to nightstop an aircraft on the island. You need to look at the costs of third-party maintenance, crew accommodation etc. etc.

IOMX

3rd Aug 2021, 09:36

virginblue

Sorry but its not endless moaning this is a forum for outlining opinions and views! I agree that the world has moved on from those regional days but I don't agree that its acceptable to not have a twice daily service from an island to the capital London. The long term economic effects will be serious if something is not done to correct it.

I have outlined my view have one Easyjet flight a day to LGW ( 156 seat rotation) and two smaller flights with another airline ( 50 seat rotation) to either LCY or LHR. There would then be 256 seats a day each way compared to 462 pre covid so a significant reduction but still a great service for the Isle of Man. This would likely fulfil the needs of the business community, day traveller and casual flyer and I suspect meet the demand requirement fairly well.

virginblue

3rd Aug 2021, 10:11

Unless you want to turn the IoM into a communist state, you (or the IoMG) cannot dictate what airlines serve what airport with what type of aircraft with what kind of fares. It really is as simple as that.

Plus the fact that there are hardly any airlines left that could offer the regional-style service you hope for. BACF, for starters, has disposed of its small 50/70 seater fleet that was used to serve the IoM. They are now concentrating on 100 seat E190s. Flybe - gone. Stobart Air - gone. flybmi - gone. Just look at the recent problems finding someone to serve the heavily subsidized Dublin/Donegal route - they had to haul in a Swedish operator as there is literally almost nobody left with 50 seat aircraft in the UK or Ireland other than Loganair and Eastern.

kar42

3rd Aug 2021, 10:20

virginblue Or the ATRs of the very Channel Island focussed Aurigny and Blue islands.

businessair75

3rd Aug 2021, 11:27

How confident are you that if tomorrow, easyJet pulled off the London route, that another carrier would fly the service and fly it with a twice daily service you so desire?

In other words, be careful what you wish for because in the current climate you could lose your London flight all together.

lfc84

3rd Aug 2021, 11:37

I'd love it if Ryanair announced IOM - STN. Just for the fume. It would be hilarious.

virginblue

3rd Aug 2021, 11:44

Not sure if the good people from the Bailiwick of Guernsey want to see their taxpayer's money at work on the Isle of Man so that IOMX can have his twice-daily flight back... (even if, I fear that the flight would still end up at LGW and not LCY - Aurigny sees no point in hauling the Guernsey folks to LCY and traditionally serves LGW).

Generally speaking, Aurigny and Blue Islands are tiny airlines with a handful of aircraft each. While Blue Islands may be tempted to try stuff like SOU-MAN, I don't see them wasting their limited resources on routes like IOM-LCY, to be honest.

BACsuperVC10

3rd Aug 2021, 12:14

IOM did have links to Gloucester / Staverton and Blackpool not so long ago.

IOMX

3rd Aug 2021, 12:16

lfc84

Its good to know you take such a serious matter for the island so seriously! I know you are a big fan of Easyjet and you have the service you want and need I am genuinely pleased for you!

IOMX

3rd Aug 2021, 12:23

virginblue

No I don't want a communist state what a silly and stupid comment to make. I am just looking for everyone involved to arrive at a sensible compromise that meets the needs of everyone. Unlike you I have proposed a solution which would work for everyone perhaps you can lay out what your vision is?

And I am fully conversant with the airline landscape thankyou and would suggest that's why we should be trying to work with rather than against Loganair! I get that you are happy with Easyjet like lfc84 I am genuinely pleased there is something that meets your needs perhaps you should consider other people have other needs !

virginblue

3rd Aug 2021, 13:01

There is no point in me making suggestions as the free market will make the decisions, not you and not me.

If enough people like you are indeed requiring same day returns and if (a very big "if" here...) they are willing to pay some serious money for those tickets that makes the operation viable, there will be airlines willing to offer services. History, however, suggest that the limited demand requires fares that not enough punters are willing to pay.

But as you seem to be convinced that there is literally big money lying on the runway at IOM that airlines are simply too stupid to pick up, you could, for example, give Sun Air of Denmark of MHS Aviation of Germany a call. They operate 30 seaters in niche markets where serious money is paid for tickets (expect fares north of 200 GBP one-way).

PS: What you describe as a "sensible compromise" pretty much sounds like an unlawful collusion in violation of antitrust law as you apparently want two competitors to agree to not effectively compete.

IOMX

3rd Aug 2021, 14:15

virginblue

I think it is crackers to believe that an island which requires strategic links to operate and function effectively would not have a broad aviation framework and plan. I maintain that around 256 seats each way would be the right level of supply for the London market certainly in the short term. And I am not advocating collusion but simple sensible and rationale choice for customers that would easily float out of the free market if thought through carefully by the IOMG in a strategic manner. Longer term others and I have indicated that proper investment in tourism and industry is what is needed to stimulate demand. Like I said I have no idea what your customer needs are but I would suggest they are provided for I am pleased you have an outcome that meets your requirements. However I would suggest there are a lot of people who require a more frequent service to London than one a day Easyjet.

And back to competition I have also indicated that Easyjet commercial behaviour of setting prices low only to increase them when all other competition is gone which at least appears to be the case is unfair- enough said!

BA318

3rd Aug 2021, 14:28

asyjet.

It’s basic supply and demand. Multiple airlines fighting over a few low paying pax means tickets will be cheap. With only EasyJet the prices will rise as the cheap tickets sell first. This perfect set up you envisage isn’t going to happen. Everyone has pointed out the flaws but you just call us EasyJet fans.

If this demand is there, get in touch with airlines. As mentioned, someone like Sun Air but they are not going to do it for £150 return. They operate Billund-LCY (or did until COVID) at around £350 each way. You need a VLM type carrier who operated reasonable prices and business schedules but they are gone. Eastern are not interested (and are usually more expensive) and Loganair have said they want a subsidy. It’s just not an attractive market and the numbers are too small for anyone to want to create a base there without some financial support.

IOMX

3rd Aug 2021, 14:45

Well I have outlined a position and provided some data and logic to my thinking. I am sorry but in my opinion some of you do come across as Easyjet fans certain posters even publish charts and act as if they are in Easyjet marketing! There is nothing wrong with that if you like what they do for you and the service they provide then that's good.

But unless I am wrong this is a forum for sharing views and opinions and as long as that is the case I will continue to share my views and opinions just as I respect that you do too.

EI-BUD

3rd Aug 2021, 18:15

The issue here is the IOM's strategy for connectivity twofold; needs of the resident and the need for inbound tourism.

There has been a decline in inbound tourism since the 1990's, mainly due to the growth of cheap flights to the sun belt by budget airlines. These budget airlines also offer the prize of volume inbound tourism to the island. However, they also have a hugely detrimental impact on any small regional carrier who is trying to sustain a viable operation from the island who also doesn't enjoy the competitive advantage of a low cost base.

easyJet is a commercial operation and has competing opportunities and IOM is probably way down the list. Hence they'll find frequency attractive on Fri and Sun in particular and not necessarily when the business traveller may require it etc.

The island needs an airline akin to Manx Airlines who were right sized for the IOM. They had flexible
seasonal scheduling to take advantage of inbound tourism while serving the core markets of LON, LPL, MAN, BHX and DUB. The other core routes of BHD, GLA and EDI were served at different times by them but often by others. Manx also offered a proportion of value for money fares.

The island needs to find a way to attract an airline to build a schedule for the islander with appropriate sized aircraft at appropriate timings. Mechanisms needs to be put in place to make this sustainable for said niche operator.

Is the solution to put into place discounts for islanders to fly, something like Aer Arann Islands do in Ireland? Making the discount available on the airline who comprehensively serves the IOM, business timings etc?
The question of how to (partially) fund cost for this is relevant. Perhaps consider a small departure fee from the airport that everybody pays and is used to fund the discounts for the islanders only? Maybe £5 each. Just a suggestion. Other mechanisms could be considered.

Make seasonal and off peak flying attractive for easyJet which would ostensibly serve the inbound tourist. Either way in my opinion, there needs to be a limit to the scale of low cost flying and a certain degree of protection needs to be provided for the airline who offers the business schedule. Otherwise, the IOM won't serve neither the needs of the resident nor business traveller adequately and lead to an over reliance on the likes of easyJet.

I'd actually like to work on such a strategy. Equally, I'd like to know what metrics or KPIs exist that show the impact of tourism to the island as a consequence of easyJet's service?

IOMX

3rd Aug 2021, 18:22

Great ideas and makes a lot of sense to me.

virginblue

3rd Aug 2021, 18:54

EI-BUD

The problem is that Manx Airlines charged fares that were considered reasonable or, in the case of farecracker offerings, even cheap back in the day. Exampes have been quoted in this thread. Nowadays, the same fares, adjusted for inflation, would be considered by many as outrageously expensive. Thanks to the LCC boom, there is an expectation that pretty much any airline can (must) haul you around for 100 GBP or less. With such fares, Manx Airlines would not have lasted a year.

Albert Hall

3rd Aug 2021, 19:16

It's fascinating to read the perspectives and counter-perspectives of this debate, which I suspect could equally apply in Jersey and Guernsey and many other islands dependent upon air links.

There's one bit here which to me has been left unsaid so far. Influencing the outcome doesn't require the IOM to become an outpost of communism or other radical changes as have been suggested! As with many regional airports, the IOM fees are very expensive. A quick look shows a £24.50 per departing passenger charge plus £1.70 for PRM and security. Add £13 APD (for now, at least) and you're at £37.50 per passenger. If you decide to include them, there is a landing and a departure fee of £21.60 per tonne of MTOW so on a completely full A320 at 73.5 tonnes, that's another £8 per passenger.

The point I am getting to is this - for easyJet to sell at £24.99 on the likes of IOM-LPL, they must be on a significant negotiated deal versus those published fees. If IOM - or anywhere else - doesn't want them to fly a route, surely they just don't give them a deal on charges? It's surely a more effective way of controlling the outcome, if that is what you decide you need to do?

BA318

3rd Aug 2021, 19:27

or they sell some below cost to get passengers in, partly in the hope of selling add ons and partly for more demand to follow. Ryanair has often sold flights for £1 or even 1p (I flew STN-BRE-STN for a grand total of £0.02.)

lfc84

3rd Aug 2021, 19:35

The IOM need not look any further than Jersey.
Loads of airlines. Loads of destinations. Loads of competition. Great marketing for inbound tourism. An economy that has people at its core who will travel

People in IOM were told again and again and again.... with respect to London City: use it or lose it

Albert Hall

3rd Aug 2021, 19:37

I think you might be rather overstating Jersey for this year at least - I've heard from a few in industry that it is really not doing well and the extra flights and seats this year are bombing badly.

Haven't a clue

3rd Aug 2021, 20:05

There's many views in the thread. Some like IOMX like travelling out and back on an early/late rotation. At £150 a ticket. Others reckon easyJet's offer (which in my experience ends up costing more with bags and seats and so on) on one flight a day somewhere in the day is better. There is reference to business people wanting to do day trips. There are many yearnings for how it used to be.

1) the world has changed. For the next year at least travel demand will be reduced by those who would normally travel frequently because of Covid. These are the frequent travellers who elect to stay safe.

2) the inclination go for of a day trip ticket for business has passed. I used to be at Ronaldsway by 6am twice a week. Then I got older and reckoned a later departure plus a hotel for an early fresh start was more efficient work wise. And I could do a client/customer dinner too. I doubt there are many who do day trips these days (other than those trying to minimise the number of nights spent in the UK for tax purposes and they tend to use their personal helicopters anyway). Curiously the Manx Airlines pricing model quoted by earlier posters charged less for the day trip; maybe they were trying to discourage people like me.

3) On Monday I flew to LHR with Loganair. No complaints about the flight, but after tramping through underground passages for about 20 minutes to reach the train station I realised why I was happy to pay a premium to go to LCY.

4) and that brings me to the point that we all have a preference for a particular London airport, driven by our personal circumstances. If I fly easyJet to LGW I have perhaps (but not always) the joy of a bus, followed by the monorail and then a 40 minute train journey to where I want to be in town, around an hour and 15 minutes typically in total. LHR T2 domestic as I discovered yesterday is similar. By contrast LHR T5 takes less than an hour. LCY is less than 40 minutes by DLR/tube; less than 30 is I splash out for a cab. LGW gives me only one (affordable) train option which is scuppered if the Gatwick to East Croyden part of the line is closed for some reason. And that happens. LHR gives me three surface options - HEX. Tube or hugely expensive cab (which costs more than the flight...). LCY also gives me three travel options - DLR/Tube, Bus/Tube and cab.

5) easyJet are hoovering up people who want to travel for nothing, and they charge late bookers like me a hefty premium for exactly the same service. My preference is to avoid that "rip off" and give a similar amount or more to the carrier that meets my needs. Having said that easyJet will let me take my usual long haul hand baggage on board (for a fee) and that is attractive. But against that with one flight a day and no interlining I could be left massively out of pocket. I would always go for the carrier with 3 flights a day for that reason.

6) I remember seeing a load of business colleagues whenever I waited for G-MIMA to take me home. Those days are also gone. Nowadays the IOM tends to be a back office for Jersey or other internationally based businesses. The bosses visit a couple of times a year if that. There are some that travel frequently still, but that handful alas doesn't keep a premium based service viable.

7) a fare of £150 isn't £150 to the airline. Deduct £26 for APD. Deduct at least £40 for airport charges. And deduct £? for CAA Nav charges, in short I doubt £40 per sector gives the airline enough to cover its own costs let alone contribute to the bottom line. Unless the aircraft is a 156 seater A319 or similar. Ir never will work for anything that seats 50-78 people.

So..IMHO what we have at the moment is all we can expect. When things improve Covidwise more will travel and more options will appear. But to complain about what we have now is to miss the point. The IOM flight market is not what it was, and until it recovers the choices will remain limited, and to some, undesirable.

IOMX

3rd Aug 2021, 20:35

Some great points not all I personally agree with but well made nevertheless. Thanks to some of the recent posters for bringing the debate to life a little more rather than just promoting the virtues of Easyjet at every turn!

SWBKCB

4th Aug 2021, 05:50

"Open Skies" isn't the only option. IOMG could introduce licencing controls that might get it closer to what it wants (if anybody can agree what that is!)

virginblue

4th Aug 2021, 07:42

Maybe the simple answer is that there is no large enough market for a LCY service? Guernsey with 63.000 inhabitants has no LCY service (they have tried twice, IIRC) despite the fact that due to runway restrictions there is no LCC competition and the local airline is state-owned.The combination of a high-cost airport such as LCY - particularly for smaller aircraft - and the economics of regional aircraft obviously mean that in small markets tickets cannot be priced competitively without incurring significant losses as the target group willing to pay realistically priced tickets is simply too small. More people will use such a service if tickets are cheap, but if fares go up in order to levae loss-making territory, these folks will use the more "inconvenient" alternative instead of paying significantly more. As a result, anything that goes into LCY nowadays below 70 seats is either a PSO (Loganair) or extremely high cost (Sun Air) - it is also for a reason that BACF no longer operates the Saab 2000 or Embraer 170.

M-JCS

4th Aug 2021, 09:59

All very true. What is forgotten too often is that it is not just an IOM decision. Destination airports don't want regional aircraft any more, because everyone knows bigger is better! So the IOM is already at a disadvantage. Add to that a lackluster economy with few IOM travellers willing to pay for business travel, and the writing is on the wall for IOM business connectivity. As I said before, I believe the IOM can expect an exodus of businesses of any significant size. In fact I've already personally witnessed it.

lfc84

5th Aug 2021, 18:57

Loganair have cancelled a flight every Sunday: LM0686

Depart: Liverpool, 13:40
Arrive: Isle Of Man, 14:20

Probably others gone from the schedule as well.

They've offered the 1915 as a replacement which has a different flight number.

The email with subject "Booking change" explicitly states:

You will only be entitled to a refund if this change moves your flight to a different day, or if you can no longer complete a day-return trip

That's completely wrong.

Looks like they're being naughty and I will have to phone them and explain how refund and cancellations work. Nevermind EU261

IOMX

10th Aug 2021, 08:28

I see the 'low cost carrier' Easyjet are living up to their name again. A return flight to London on some selected dates as high as £473.00 before bags and seating. And no Tuesday or Wednesday service at all in November so much for London connectivity! And also no Tuesday, Wednesday or Saturday flight in January. Tremendous service and good value pricing for the island....... not!

flyerguy

10th Aug 2021, 09:04

I think people are forgetting how pricing works. Cheaper tickets are sold if the flight tends to be emptier as is fills up the price increases. A lot of airlines do it. Because it’s the only airline operating to London of course flights are going to get busy and prices increase.

IOMX

10th Aug 2021, 09:40

I can assure you that I am more than conversant with the algorithms that airlines use and increase their prices as planes fill up. However I do not believe that a company that brands itself as a low cost carrier should be charging up to £483.00 before seating and bags and to allow it to happen for such a poor service. Easyjet have ended up putting 156 seats onto the London market at erratic times and now we have no other options. If there really is no further demand than 156 a day ( which I do not believe based on the pricing we are seeing) far better would be a twice a day 76 seater which would offer the frequency and connectivity that is required by an island to its neighbouring capital. Lets hope somebody somewhere wakes up to what is going on and sorts out the London market so we can all have a decent service.