Isle of Man-3

[IOMX]

I agree with your points and this is exactly why the Easyjet model alone is not really right for the Isle of Man in my view. Islands need regular and frequent connections for strategic reasons. It is fine if there is sufficient demand in the market for one flight a day plus a more frequent carrier but it is not the solution for an island that needs strong and regular connections into the neighbouring capital. The problem as you have rightly highlighted is Easyjet bleeding out any new potential operator that's why there needs to be some form of light touch regulation to ensure that does not happen. The Isle of Man Government need to carefully consider all of this and ensure they have the right outcome for the island.

[Tinwald]

IOMX fella - everything you've written over the past few weeks is spot-on.

'The Isle of Man Government need to carefully consider all of this and ensure they have the right outcome for the island.' They don't have the ability and as none have any skin in the island's business game, but will just keep milking the tax-payer funded gravy train for as long as they can, they'll do nothing. Are any of them NOT 'as green as the hills' with any real needs outside shangri la rock?

[IOMX]

Thanks. I do worry that the IOMG do not understand the strategic importance of well timed regular services between the Isle of Man and London. I recognise that everyone will have different opinions but I have tried to lay out the argument why the Isle of Man needs a morning and evening service into the London market. Sadly a lot of posters on here seem to think that the solution is Easyjet but that will never provide the outcome needed of an early morning off island flight and evening return. I suspect their circumstances and needs mean they can manage with a once a day erratically timed service but that is certainly not what a lot others need. I think a good outcome would be two a day to a London premium airport ( LCY OR LHR) on a 50 or 76 seater and a once a day Easyjet ( LGW ) I am sure the market could sustain that.

I do hope the IOMG start to get to grips with this issue urgently for the sake of the island.

[SWBKCB]

Sadly a lot of posters on here seem to think that the solution is Easyjet but that will never provide the outcome needed of an early morning off island flight and evening return.

I think that the view is not that Easyjet are the solution, but that easyjet can't be blamed for putting on the flights that suit them rather than 'providing a service'

I think a good outcome would be two a day to a London premium airport ( LCY OR LHR) on a 50 or 76 seater and a once a day Easyjet ( LGW ) I am sure the market could sustain that.

Can the market sustain it without government intervention?

[IOMX]

I think you will find some posters do think Easyjet are the solution some of them almost operate as though they are in the Easyjet marketing department! I think the IOMG do need to take ownership for this problem it is a strategic issue for the island. Lets hope someone recognises that quickly.

[BA318]

I think you misunderstand most people's comments. I think we can all see why a twice daily service would be great but the reality is every time someone offered it, it has failed. Easyjet seems to be offering what it can make money on (or at least I assume lose the least amount on). I also don't think its remotely realistic to expect a 150GBP return flight on a 50 seater to a premium airport. As has been pointed out before it seems the options are:
1. Lobby IOM Gov to subsidise an operator to fly Morning/Evening flight to LHR or LCY (LHR likely too hard once things return to some normality).
2. A more boutique airline comes in and operates the service with a price to reflect it like Sun Air with 600GBP return flights to Billund.
3. Easyjet slowly increase services and eventually you end up with a more flexible offering.

I do find it hard to believe there are as many people as you mention who need these twice daily flights. History has shown that no carrier has managed to survive very long operating them so evidently they were either too cheap/with too high costs or the demand just wasn't there. It was well said when the BA LCY service was launched that it was use it or lose it time and evidently it wasn't used enough.

I'm not up to speed with how the IOM operates. Is there a business organisation who can lobby for support or try to attract a carrier?

[IOMX]

I think you are broadly right with your options but in not understanding how the IOM operates maybe you are missing some of the nuances of it. As much as some on here seem to imply I don't understand aviation I believe I probably have a better grasp than many of them having spent a lot of time looking into it. And I am also very familiar with Sunair I have flown LCY to Billund on several occasions on the Dorner jet its a fantastic plane but as you say more boutique.

On your point regarding people needing to fly twice a day I do think there are a lot. Airport data will show you that circa 4500 people a month used the LCY to IOM service. The problem was that the aircraft was operated by Eastern airways more latterly Loganair on behalf of British Airways so there were several parties trying to make a return. In addition the plane could only ever operate IOM/LCY, I assume due to this commercial arrangement, so it ended up with three rotations to try and make it viable not two. In effect the midday flight is not really needed and puts a strain on the whole route. Couple that with two rotations of Easyjet placing over 300 seats into the market and its challenging, If there is a model which means an operator can fly the two London sectors morning and evening and put a Manchester, Birmingham or Liverpool leg during the day I suspect it might work better. And only one Easyjet rotation rather than two so the market does not become over suppled.

Yes there are various lobby groups I am sure they are looking into this too but my aim to to try and raise awareness of the problem so that someone somewhere wakes up to the issue and fixes it for the good of the island. All it needs is some sensible long term strategic thinking and we could have an outcome that meets the needs of the casual flyer with very cheap rices and a more regular morning and evening service priced at a higher level. You may be right it needs to be more than £150 but my research shows a price zone of £150-£200 is currently applicable from Belfast City to LHR and LCY and even less for Jersey at around £120 so it is clearly feasible. A fare structure of £150-£200 return is fair in my view to pay for a well timed service and compares favourably with peak time train fare equivalents.

[lfc84]

LCY has been operated by Aer Arran, VLM, Flybe and Loganair in their own ops. There is also Eastern who operated it for BA. There will be others as well.
Some of the above were prior to easyJet.
What does that tell you ?

[businessair75]

IOMX

Are you suggesting that easyJet should intervene (manually manipulate) their revenue management system to ensure that fares don’t go too high?

Nothing wrong with that per sè but remember it’s the same algorithm that spits out many cheaper fares as well as those very cheap loss leading fares.

Ultimately though, the market dictates.

[IOMX]

It tells me you have no idea of your facts! Lets look at it in a little more detail maybe I an help you out

1) When Aer Arran operated it Flybe were also flying into LGW on four rations a day so there were too many seats.
2) When VLM operated it they did do alongside Euromanx and Flybe were still flying into LGW. Incidentally VLM only ever used it to park the plane during the day as it was more cost effective than holding it at LCY.
3) Flybe did it years ago it was a Belfast service that stopped at IOM. Again it was up against 4 rotations of LGW so too many seats.
4) Eastern operated on behalf of BACF again there were two Easyjet rotatios at 156 seats a go for it to go against.
5) Loganair operated it on behalf of BACF again there were two Easyjet rotations.

Also as I pointed out in an earlier post if you had bothered to read it LCY was running three rotations whereas I suggest only two are needed ( I think this was to utilise the plane throughout the day as the BA agreement meant they could not serve other markets). So in every scenario you have provided there were about 350-450 seats going into the London market causing an oversupply. On the model I have suggested there would be about 250-300 seats which I would suggest is about right for the market.

[OzzyOzBorn]

A common misunderstanding arising again in discussion here.

The term 'LOW COST AIRLINE' is not and never has been a reference to the fares which customers pay. The term quite literally means that the inherent cost of operating the business is kept below those of traditional legacy carriers. This is achieved via the way the business is structured. What the customer actually experiences is a 'NO-FRILLS CARRIER' ... an airline which compartmentalises every aspect of the flying experience and charges by component of the itinerary ... add-on fees for all 'frills'. Note that whilst fares offered by these carriers often are attractively priced, they don't have to be. There is no implied promise that all customers will pay a low fare. These carriers are businesses which exist to maximise profits, and they do this by deploying yield-management software to maximise revenues like every other airline.

Of course, the public have come to believe that a 'low cost airline' means low fares for them is part of the deal. It really isn't. The airline will charge what the market will bear. But, of course, the LCC's are quite happy that this widespread misunderstanding is commonly held by the public at large. If customers have convinced themselves that 'Airline X' will always sell them a cheap ticket, the company is not going to disabuse them of that impression. The myth serves them well. So customers find out the reality the hard way when they look to make a late booking on a popular route.

If you're an investor in an airline, you want to see 'low costs'. If you're a passenger, you want to secure a 'cheap fare'. Two very different things. The one does not guarantee the other.

[IOMX]

businessair75

I don't think its right that a carrier that claims to be low cost is charging £483.00 before seats and bags for a flight to London with a badly timed one a day service. We saw the same thing last year with single fares from Liverpool to Isle of Man commanding £600.00. I would suggest someone somewhere in Easyjet knows what is going on and looking the other way that pricing behaviour is not right.

[businessair75]

IOMX

You get very defensive and a little ar*y in your replies. I understood your long standing argument about having a more frequent service but then you went on a tangent about easyJet’s pricing which by and large is dictated by the demand. For every ‘high priced fare, there will be many more on that 156 seater that are sold much cheaper, probably at a loss at certain times.

[IOMX]

OzzyOzBorn

Yes I understand all of your points. It is indeed a misconception that Easyjet are always offering cheap fares something certain posters on here should take note of. The point I am trying to make is some people believe Easyjet are 'wonderful' and always offering great fares and a great service. I don't think they do at all in the case of the Isle of Man for any number of reasons I have laid out in previous posts and they have a habit of driving out competition to force up their yield. As you say they are a business I get that but its just not what is needed on an island where there are few alternative choices to travel.

[BA318]

Surely if there is this demand you speak of for the business focused routes then the LCY route would survive and Easyjet wouldn’t have made enough and they would have pulled off. Instead it seems the business pax went for the cheap Easyjet flight and didn’t care about the time of the flight or flying to LGW. Or the LCY route at £150 return wasn’t charging enough to turn a decent profit.

[IOMX]

businessair75

I am sorry that you do not like my replies all I am seeking to do is air a view and a set of opinions as that is what this forum is for. It does seem a few posters on here want to defend Easyjet and bash smaller operators I seek to address the balance! And if you looked at my posts you will see I am not against Easyjet at all in fact I support one service a day but that needs to be supplemented with a twice daily service at early morning and evening. I think that is a very fair and balanced non defensive position compared to some on here but then maybe I am living in a parallel world!

I don't think it is a tangent the point is Easyjet are flooding the market offering non sustainable pricing and then when they are the only ones left they push up their prices. That means we don't get to see a frequent service and so in my view the two points are intrinsically linked.

[IOMX]

BA318

I already laid out the position that the LCY route was complicated because it was in most cases operated by either Eastern or Loganair on behalf of BACF. Several airlines trying to make money out of it. And actually I think it was all going fine before the pandemic there was no indication of a problem then. If the IOMG had supported LHR or LCY for a little longer to help bridge the pandemic gap I suspect all would have carried on being fine.

[businessair75]

I’m not bashing the small operators but by the same token, I don’t see easyJet doing anything wrong. I see the free market as just that.

[cavokblues]

Unfortunately though, it's probably only not sustainable for the smaller airlines in competition. It's probably very sustainable for easyJet if / when they drive off the competition and sell seats at £400+ Free market economics at play.

[BA318]

But that’s going to be the case. BA doesn’t have anything smaller than an E190. And on anything smaller you are dividing the same fees between fewer people so fares start to rise fast. In the past several carriers tried it too and the only survivor is Easyjet so evidently they make money otherwise I doubt they would stick at it.

You also gave excuses why all the other attempts failed but surely it proves the point. This dream scenario of a carrier basing their plane on the IOM, operating just twice a day, at peak time for max fare of £150 return just isn’t feasible. It’s never going to happen.

BA also had Eastern operate the Saab2000 to DUS and after they returned the Saab the E170 took over DUS so they were happy to continue that route despite much more competition.

[mart901]

Looking forward to next summer, although particularly in the current times that can be precarious, it's perhaps worth noting there's double daily rotations on the LGW on 4 out of 7 days per week, perhaps not totally business friendly timings but they are there and let's be honest U2 will be more than happy to fill in the gaps if the demand is there. No sign of LTN.

In the end U2 are a business, if it suits them and their needs they will roll out more/less flights and tweak timings, but the demand for business travel simply isn't there like it used to be. Flying BHD-LHR early in the morning recently not one suit to be seen, this would have been packed with them pre-covid.
I understand the want of flexible schedules etc but the other way to look at it is without them nobody would be flying between London and IOM currently, if the demand was there another carrier would be in making hay selling day returns to business pax and possibly making it unviable for U2 to operate as they do or change timings.

[lfc84]

Is that an earthquake in IOM or just certain people having a tantrum, stamping their feet because capitalist society isn't going there way for once ? 😁
​​​​​​

[IOMX]

Far from it. But the last time I looked this forum was for airing and sharing opinions and views and as long as that is the case that is exactly what I will do. And I for one am happy to own a view that does not fit with everybody else although I know there are a lot of people who do hold views like mine on this matter they just find it challenging to be drowned out by some who don't want to listen at all! Look at it it this way its far better to debate and discuss these issues than say nothing surely? Maybe by taking note of an opposing view that can help understand a situation better. If through doing that the outcome and I recognise its a huge if we get the right people ( policymakers etc) to see what is happening we might just might end up with something that it is good for the island. Wouldn't that just be fantastic?

Finally I think most people who post on here have some very reasonable and valid points and I certainly 'listen' to those its the reason why if you read my posts I agree at least one Easyjet service a day makes sense.

[IOMX]

cavokblues

Yes I agree and that is why I think in the case of an island policy around this is very important. You can debate open and closed skies all I would say is an island is different to a market where it is easier to make choices and go to different airports etc. And if Easyjet are operating in a manner that drives off competition and pushes up prices afterwards someone should be looking at that behaviour and seeking to prevent it happening it's not right.

[IOMX]

businessair75

I a not necessarily saying that you are bashing small operators but some posters on here are happy to do so and act as though they are working for Easyjet! I am seeking to address the balance and share my thoughts I see nothing wrong with that.

[lfc84]

easyJet have coexisted on the Liverpool route for around 11 years. I don't sense that they actively force others off the routes where there's direct competition.

The questions should be around what government can do to increase competition and encourage the numbers of routes and destinations. See Jersey as an example - rather than handing out bungs or route licenses or doing closed skies.

Whilst the IOM relies on the TT, farming, fishing and retail there are always going to be issues 😁

Only joking with the last bit

[IOMX]

On a lot of your points here I agree. Government should absolutely be doing more to encourage more tourism and more people to the island. The island has a lot to offer a tourist and if it were marketed more effectively maybe we would see more demand for air services. Also more broader onward investment should be encouraged I am all for that to help the island prosper. The problem is not enough has been done around this to date and so it needs time to build to that position. Indeed to get the required inward investment you need to get key businessman and investors here in the first place. I would argue that is why the Mayor of Teesside is doing everything he can to keep a LHR route going into his region.

Your comment re Liverpool is an interesting one but I suspect may be clouded by the Patient Services contract which the government tender out. Maybe that is why the two coexist? But an outcome like Liverpool would be ideal for the London market so lets hope we can see something like that happening.

[businessair75]

Absolutely, as I noted last week. The cultural ties between the Northwest and the IOM support the routes well, the market to London from the Island isn’t as big and that’s why a more frequent schedule to London isn’t offered. Despite expensive last minute fares, easyJet will generate some demand with cheaper fares making it viable to operate with a 319.

[horatio_b]

Post #257 refers to the cost of Jersey to London flights being around £120. This sort of figure is not realistic for the IOM with it's much smaller tourist industry. A quick Google shows that in 2017 there were around 8500 tourist beds in Jersey compared to 2000 in the IOM.

[IOMX]

businessair75

Except that if you look at CAA passenger data by airport in 2019 there were 277406 people flying between IOM and London and 254250 from IOM to Liverpool. So the London market is bigger than Liverpool where there are normally three rotations from Loganair and an Easyjet rotation.

[IOMX]

The cost surely has nothing to do specifically with tourists per se although I agree the IOMG should be encouraging more tourists to the island that is part of the problem. Its more about the airline making the route pay and it seems on that route you can get a return ticket on a BA flight to LHR for around £120 return.

[businessair75]

I was talking about LPL/MAN combined. Both cities are culturally close to the island, more so Liverpool.

[BA318]

IOMX

Yes but we have no idea how many tickets at that price, how many are being sold as Club Europe at a lot higher price etc which cross subsidises etc. A random quote is no indication of what fare is required to make a route pay. Economy might be £120 return because half the plane goes as Club Europe at £600 return. (Just an example).

[IOMX]

businessair75

But don't forget that London has to serve the whole of the South East including across to Bristol and the West Country. I know there is an Easyjet service to Bristol but that is only twice a week. I agree that the North west is culturally connected to the Isle of Man but its wrong to imply the London market is not sizeable. Its certainly ludicrous to believe one flight a day into LGW at random times offers core connectivity into such an important market.

[IOMX]

BA318

Yes you are right but I suspect a lot of fares on the BA /LHR Jersey service are no more than £180- £200 return. And there are multiple airlines and flights going in there. I know the population of Jersey is larger than the IOM but its not that much larger i think circa 108,000 in Jersey and circa 85000 in IOM. I think the IOMG should be looking to see what Jersey are doing to encourage more travellers and trying to replicate it in some way a point several posters have rightly made.

[businessair75]

Point taken but MAN, particularly, naturally serves much of Northern England as well as parts of the Midlands and North Wales. LPL much less so.

[milleriom]

. .........I think the IOMG should be looking..... to encourage more travellers ..............
Most people think that too - especially almost all the participants and readers of this forum. You have been a model of clarity and tenaciousness in opening this most important topic of debate up so exceptionally well. We ought to thank you very much for that.

I would like to add that the sweeping Green Agendas will be bound to undermine 'encouraging more travellers'. Indeed, they already have. Then there is the issue of Government funding. There is huge damage to the island's coffers from Covid19 and there is still plenty more to come - and for the long-term as well. Taken together, these factors alone will most likely prevent any significant and necessarily enduring grants and subsidies for a London City or Heathrow route beyond the usual soft ones such as concessions on airport charges.

Regarding London connectivity, it looks very poor just now as we emerge from just under 16 months of restrictions. Frequencies and capacity will, as ever, continue to improve as and when the demand is there.

As you say, and virtually everyone agrees with you, an LCY or LHR route would be premium priced if it is to work. And it has not worked for long with any one airline in the past since the demise of Manx Airlines which was sold to BA and the subsequent inevitable loss of the hugely coveted LHR slots.

The added challenge now is that the most respected analysts foresee a permanent reduction of 40% to 50% in business travel.

I do not see Jersey as a relevant benchmark for most things - it is a very different economy and geo-location with an importantly 27% larger and more affluent population. However, there is one thing that the IOM could quickly and easily copy and that is to drop APD. At a stroke that would boost pax demand and airline profitability so it would help with increasing and under-pinning the IOM's air routes and frequencies as we have seen in the Channel Islands, Belfast and Inverness.

But there is no Magic Money Tree and APD brings in a lot of money - no small matter when financially times are looking extremely tough into the indefinite future. And there is also another important pointer to what is the likely political will of the new House of Keys next month - it is certain to have many more strong Green Agenda fans amongst its ministers and other legislators.

The LGW route with all the disadvantages that you and others have highlighted so very well, may be the only London one for a long time ahead although I also expect that easyJet will most likely consider trying to revive their previous Luton route at some point. I do not have any love for easyJet but I do respect them and I do appreciate what they offer to the majority of people - i.e. those who are not price insensitive Business Travellers. Those who dislike them should ask themselves what routes would even exist without them let alone the capacity, days of operation, frequencies and prices on the IOM-Liverpool, Bristol, Belfast, Manchester etc routes.

It is not as if Loganair have covered themselves in glory during the past 16 months of taking multi millions of the taxpayers' money here. And their handling of refunds was, and to an extent still remains, vile. And let us not forget either that if Loganair could make LHR or LCY work financially (both worked fine operationally) then they would be doing so - and they will do so when and if sufficient demand exits for a profit.

I apologise for making such a negative 'half empty glass" assessment. I have used the LCY route countless times for both business and leisure purposes throughout all the years that it existed and there is no-one who can outbid me in enthusiasm for an LCY or LHR route.

[M-JCS]

I’m not bashing the small operators but by the same token, I don’t see easyJet doing anything wrong. I see the free market as just that.

What you forget is that small operators have had to beg LCY for slots because LCY said years ago they didn't want any aircraft smaller than 70 seats. BA could get away with it because they basically control LCY. The same thing happened at LGW and caused Flybe to leave (at a convenient time, I note). You might recall that LCY went out of their way to make IOM flights as uncomfortable as possible shunting flights to the far end of the airport with consequent bus rides and the attendant additional time all that nonsense took. With a small island population, many of whom see flying into LCY as "too posh", LCY services were already running an uphill battle. That still does not help the business traveller who needs to be in London early mornings to conduct a day's business.

[cavokblues]

I don't think we can blame LCY and underhand tactics for the failure of the route. Swiss aircraft are always parked far out requiring a bus ride due to the size of the aircraft and they do quite well. Quite simply, the demand for the flights with the economics didn't work. Maybe they will for another operator but I'm pessimistic.

[M-JCS]

What you forget is that LCY set their landing fees, intentionally making the economics of utilising small aircraft unappealing. So that is one more disadvantage for IOM flights going straight to profitability of flights.

[cavokblues]

But they're allowed to set their landing fees whatever they want them to be. I'm not so sure they would be doing that just now so maybe there is an opportunity for a new operator?

I think, unfortunately, the economics of LCY-IOM flights, similarly to Jersey and Guernsey flights in non pandemic times, just don't work and airlines think they can make more money elsewhere.

[BACsuperVC10]

businessair75

Actually I don't believe that is quite true, Liverpool attracts passengers from all those areas. I know this from personal experience chatting to other passengers.

[businessair75]

Of course they do but not to such a large extent.
North Wales; you get folk but by the time you cross the Mersey you can be almost in Manchester. The wider North West; you get people using LPL but less so than MAN and you don’t get too many coming from Yorkshire, parts of the Midlands which are very much a part of MAN’s catchment area.

MAN also regularly attracts passengers from the North East and, in Scottish holidays, from Scotland too. That just doesn’t happen at LPL in any noteworthy numbers.

[lfc84]

TFW rail now operate via the Haton Curve - Liverpool South Parkway to Chester for connections to beyond.
Makes it easier for North Wales
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G74610/2021-08-11#allox_id=0

[milleriom]

So, bye bye to Heathrow again after only a few months and well over two decades after the last time the IOM-LHR route stopped. The last Loganair rotation was last night and the Embraer jet airframe that they were using has already gone off to greener pastures.

This morning, the only local based aircraft ''died'' which meant that the Loganair ATR lifeline "Patient Transfer Flight" to Liverpool (for which the IOM Government pays millions) was grounded for 2 hours.

Loganair are clearly not a panacea - certainly not the answer for many of the IOM residents' hopes. In the real world we now have to live in, we are lucky to have the easyJet routes, capacity and frequencies. I just looked at random dates to LGW in November and December and I can buy lots and lots of very suitable (for me that usually means a morning out and an evening back) return flights with a small cabin bag only, for just £66 and in some cases as low as £56. Most, but not all, business travellers who still wish to fly out and in on business trips will not like the lack of a day trip option nor the location of Gatwick but until there are enough of them to support a LHR or LCY double daily service there will not be one. Meantime, the bulk of the people will continue to use the easyJet services in large numbers and consider them amazingly quick, comfy and cheap.

[mart901]

LGW actually is fast into central London on the Gatwick express, and as I've previously said the demand for business travel just isn't there like it was currently, and may never be back like it was. For good or for bad Microsoft Teams and Zoom are the way now

One to watch for the future may be Emerald Airlines/EIR. Not totally inconceivable they may offer something for the London market.

[milleriom]

Maybe so but many thousands of people will look to them to restore a Dublin-IOM-Dublin service first. And to be attractive to business - and to enough other premium paying locals - an IOM - LCY / LHR service would need an early rotation out and a late one back which needs an aircraft based here which presents its own extra obstacles to an Emerald......................

[allan1987]

I Would say possibly Emerald Airlines might possibly run flights as, BA Regional in the future since they will have an UK AOC.

[mart901]

Well the intention is to base 5 a/c at BHD as EIR so they should have it already

[virginblue]

IOMX

Your misconception is that there were too many flights to LGW in the past to make LCY/LHR work. In reality, there were too many punters choosing LGW over LCY to make LCY work, not too many flighs to LGW. If LCY was as popular and sought-after as you want us to believe, it would have thrived at the expense of LGW. The fact that it did not shows us that there are simply not enough passengers willing to pay a premium to fly to LCY or LHR. What you actually expect is government intervention by dictating airlines what routes and frequencies they can serve.

M-JCS

It does not stop airlines like Sun Air operating from LCY with 30seaters. It does, however, stop operating airlines with small aircraft offering return flights for 150-200 GBP (at least without subsidies) - which apparently some here regard as the upper limit for a ticket price from IOM.

[lfc84]

Belfast is now available to book with easyJet through to the end of September 2022

[IOMX]

virginblue

The load factors on LCY were actually quite good and if it went to only two rotations rather than three I think it would be very good! Yes I do think that an island with its own government which has strong business links into London should have better connections than a once a day Easyjet service to Gatwick! Linking the Isle of Man to London is of strategic importance its as simple as that. And I think you will find there are quite a lot of people who agree with me.

[BA318]

But loads don't equal profitability. And unless passengers are going pay fares which allow the aircraft to sit around for half the day only doing two rotations a day then it's not going to work with a twice daily as what does the carrier do with the plane the rest of the time. This is the Sun Air approach and again you pay alot more than £150 return for their services. And the people who agree with you evidently don't put their hands deep enough in their pockets to make it work.

[IOMX]

Actually the yield was quite good too .

[IOMX]

And without too much thought the plane does not necessarily need to be on the ground doing nothing . Given it’s an island there is the potential to use it on a rotation to Birmingham, Manchester , Liverpool , Belfast City or Dublin ! I am sure if the right people sat down and put their minds to it all a solution could be found . Otherwise just be negative and full of gloom all the time !

[SWBKCB]

Better get your business plan written up :ok:

[BA318]

Evidentially you know how to make it work and Flybe, Euromanx, Easyjet, VLM, BA, Stobart and Loganair all haven’t got a clue.

if the yield was decent someone would be operating as you wish. Especially at the moment.

[IOMX]

I am glad you see it all so positively! And of the list you quote Euromanx VLM Flybe and Stobart have all gone so I am not sure about your comment ! If you think the only answer is EasyJet then that’s something of a narrow view in my opinion but one you are entitled to. Like I have said my opinion is couple an EasyJet rotation with an early morning / early evening rotation priced to reflect the service and I think there is a viable solution .

[SWBKCB]

I think that BA318's point is that history doesn't support your view. Those that have tried have gone, and there isn't a queue forming...

[IOMX]

The aviation sector has a habit of springing surprises only time now will tell.

[Alteagod]

And alas those surprises tend to be of the more negative variety but covid has shown always expect the unexpected so really who does know anything about aviation at the moment

[virginblue]

So to sum it up, flights between IOM and LCY in the past were packed to the the rafters and generated breath-taking profits, but the airlines, instead of milking a cash-cow, decided to withdraw sevices just out of wickedness. And just to be sure that nobody forces them to return and to make money again, they went bancrupt as a precaution....

One of the problems with a relatively low-volume route is that it needs to generate decent traffic at both ends. While LCY has improved in that regard, it has always been a tricky destination for airlines as traffic patterns are heavily biased towards inbound traffic.So while you easily get a full load into LCY in the morning, it is not as easy to sell seats for the return flights unless you sell very cheap tickets that are cross-subsidized. I made use of that phenomenon often when accommodation in London was no issue for me - and often I was leaving LCY on morning flights on 50 seater planes with single digit loads. Add to that the problem of what to do with a relatively large aircraft at a low-volume destination during the day - if you canot fill it with mid-day flights to LCY, can you indeed fill it to secondary destinations without literally giving away tickets?.

[IOMX]

You make some fair points here and note I have consistently said it does not need a mid day rotation . But I do think it needs careful thought and some creative thinking how else do challenging situations get resolved or do you just give up ? I have never prescribed to that in anything I do !

For example if in the current climate a return rotation is difficult why not do a morning island flight use the plane during the day to other destinations and then return with an evening flight. Or do what Jersey European used to do and run a Belfast City device stopping at the Isle of Man . It’s too easy to be negative the Isle of Man needs more than one Gatwick service connecting it to the neighbouring capital .

[BA318]

Operating IOM-LCY in the morning and then LCY-IOM in the evening, needs the plane overnight in IOM, which increases costs if the airline is BACF for example. You then need higher fares to cover the hotel accommodation etc. The world has moved on since Jersey European. How many people are going to book LCY-IOM-BHD when there are direct LCY-BHD flights or any number of low cost flights to Belfast from other places and again if they do, it would be because the flight is cheap. When Jersey European was operating there wasn't anywhere near the competition.

[IOMX]

Well at least I have put forward some suggestions nobody else ever seems to do which leads me to think they either believe EasyJet is the answer or they are not bothered . I have no idea where you are based or if you ever go to the Isle Of Man but I think you are missing the strategic importance of strong London connections. I am convinced somebody somewhere could find a solution but maybe I just live in a parallel universe !

[BA318]

Don't get me wrong. I fully understand your points and your argument. I'm just pointing out that historically the only way the LCY route seems to survive is with funding from another source. It is then either the IOM Gov need to step up and pay up (seems unlikely given they just stopped paying Loganair) or a business association/consortium/large company needs to guarantee to buy X seats per flight to make sure its profitable. Otherwise I believe the only hope is use Easyjet enough that they see the need to add a second daily.

Would twice daily a couple of times a week work better (even if still Easyjet)? for example on a Monday and Thursday they operate twice daily at decent times and then the other times a bit more random.

The corona staycation boom seemed like the time to push the Island but sadly they stayed locked up, while Jersey and Guernsey did better (albeit they attract a different market). Do the IOM even have a tourism budget? I've never seen an advert for the Island in an inflight or business/travel magazine or at an airport while you do see them for Jersey/Guernsey/Gibraltar. If nobody knows you're there or what you have to offer then you're not going to get the traffic you want.

[IOMX]

Interesting reading your points here which I agree with I do think the IOMG have a role to play in some way shape or form. They need to do more to boost tourism for sure. I don't really see another easyjet as the answer unless its island based for early morning rotation and that's unlikely. That's why I think it needs airlines, IOMG and business and commerce to get their minds round the problem and so something proactive.

[BA318]

And that's what it comes back to. Airlines don't sit around thinking how can we help the Isle of Man. It needs the IOM to approach the airlines to at least get it on the radar. Do you know how much Loganair was getting to support its route?

[IOMX]

No I dont know. but if you look at my posts I have consistently said the solution involves government , business and airlines all pulling together I recognise airlines cant do it all themselves!

[Mr Optimistic]

Tourism ? Trouble is season is what, 5 months and IoM is relatively expensive for what it offers with the big exception of the TT and other events. Not sure what can be done with the other 7 months. Range of accomodation isn't brilliant either. If you are looking for a business friendly service to London are in the off season another solution is required.
Used to be great when I could fly cheap from LTN but wondered at the time how much business 80,000 residents could generate.

[Jamesair1]

Mr. Optimistic has made a good point about the range of accommodation available. With domestic tourism being in the doldroms over many years throughout the UK, many hotels have closed and changed use and now with Staycations being heavily promoted, there is now a lack of accommodation available.....I noticed this in Jersey last year and in Bournemouth this year, I am sure that the situation on the IOM is similar

[inOban]

Because of Brexit and the reluctance of many to work in hospitality, they can't recruit the staff to reopen them.

[mart901]

How would the Isle of Man be effected by Brexit, it's relationship hasn't changed with the EU?

[pabely]

Because of the Labour Market, even with less venues open hoteliers are struggling to fill vacancies.

[Flightrider]

Mart - technically, you are absolutely right. But I think you are confusing that with the perception of the average EU resident who may be interested in working away for a summer season in the hospitality sector. Expecting them to understand that the IOM and Channel Islands were never part of the EU and therefore nothing has changed since Brexit is a near impossible cause. I suspect the majority will simply think that it’s a funny little island off the UK, part of the UK and now off limits to them. Perception rather than reality is the issue.

[OzzyOzBorn]

The staff recruitment issue never arose for IOM hotels for the S2021 season, because the IOM authorities elected to exclude visitors until a very late stage. There was no market for the hotels to open for - residents of a small island aren't going to book them, and I don't think even the exchange deal with Guernsey residents continued into S21. No hotel is going to recruit support staff from overseas against the backdrop of a border lockdown policy. The current situation is the result of quite recent C-19 restrictions, not Brexit concerns. Note that I'm not criticising the IOM's isolation policy re Covid ... that was a matter for Tynwald to decide. But the draconian border controls drove the hotel recruitment response. They essentially lost S21 from a tourism perspective, and (though I stand to be corrected) I don't recall big draws such as the TT or the classic car rallies going ahead this year. I wish them better fortunes all round in 2022 and look forward to joining the influx to the island once I can again book with confidence that the trip can happen.

[flyerguy]

Loganair have started to release schedules for Summer 2022.

Manchester increases to 4x Daily
Liverpool to 3x Daily.
Edinburgh 3x Weekly
Birmingham 1x Daily
Jersey - Nothing Showing only connections 1x Weekly via BHX (STC)
Belfast City - Nothing Showing (STC)

if your one of those who likes to have a moan about pricing to the Isle of Man, I wouldn’t look!

[flyerguy]

easyJet Summer 2022

Manchester - Nothing Loaded for Summer due to being winter only at present.
Belfast International - 2x Weekly
Liverpool- 11x Weekly
London Gatwick -2x Daily (Drops to 11x Weekly during peak summer)
Bristol - 2x Weekly

[Saabdriver1]

What's the pricing moan?

[IOMX]

EasyJet charging circa £500.00 for a return ticket to London on some dates in September. Unbelievable and outrageous that this is happening for a once a day erratically timed service to Gatwick airport .

[JSCL]

Having just paid circa £880 for two adults return to Gatwick, I've started to accept it's part of life now. The flights are full - or nearly full - practically all of the time it seems, from my recent flying experiences.

[cavokblues]

They're equally charging £100 return on other dates. Just looking at their website the most expensive flights from IOM to Gatwick on the 2nd Sept were £200+ plus one way. The seating is showing only 25 seats left. So it's clearly a pricing structure driven by demand. If people are willing to pay pay it and easyJet have the monopoly its what will happen! Successful low cost airlines are masters at managing yields.

[SWBKCB]

JSCL

Be interesting to see when you're flying and what the equivalent fares are on BA to LHR from NCL, EDI or GLA. For example, NCL to LHR next Monday, returning Thursday is about the same price

[pabely]

I remember a few years back the EZY & BA flights were full and I had to get back to UK that day, Flybe charged me £230 one way to MAN!

[JSCL]

SWBKCB

It was over the long Bank Holiday weekend just gone and the flights full in both directions. As I say, I've accepted it. People are travelling and it shows what a silly decision Loganair have made pulling off London market.

[BA318]

There's a world of difference between Easyjet operating an A320 and Loganair flying an ATR42. Loganair were probably paying the same, if not more in fees for their ATR than Easyjet is, while Easyjet divide that cost between 160 pax, Loganair at most could divide it by 50 people. There are also a lot of people on that plane who probably paid a lot less and got the starting fares at £29 one way or whatever Easyjet start at, which wouldn't be so possible on Loganair's smaller plane.

[IOMX]

Charging the fares they are is really not quite right in my opinion. I understand that a commercial business is there to make a profit but this is on another level. Its the difficult times that define the working ethics of a company and by any measure the fares they are charging is not right for a once a day erratically timed service to Gatwick. I hope that as the situation hopefully improves in the future those that are happy to actively 'market' Easyjet reflect on that and their commercial behaviour. THE IOMG government should also be reflecting on this too.

And as for the Loganair flying to Heathrow they were doing so on an Embraer 145 not the ATR42 bat the very odd exception. And on the last few flights in August when to my understanding the subsidy had been removed they were charging £300 and I suspect that was making a profit for them. Frankly a twice a daily service to London Heathrow at £300 is infinitely better than what we currently have! Even Sunair are probably able to offer better value than Easyjet right now!

[mart901]

The other option (and I know it's not always possible) is to get organized and plan in advance. The fares are high for immediate travel. Go one month ahead and there are £50 one way seats available. Go two months ahead and they are half that price again and widely available. Last minute bargains don't exist on scheduled flights and particularly not LCC.

There's times when I fly EZY for £20 one way between BFS and mainland UK including LON airports. I agree Loganair jumped ship too hastily imao, and this seems to be the way they are going on in general, starting and finishing routes after a few months and not even starting them in some cases.
​​​​​

[cavokblues]

I can get easyJet for £52 rtn in October. They can offer very good value, but with every other airline if the demand is there will ask passengers to pay a premium!

[Albert Hall]

Have you seen the latest charges at LHR? It certainly has never been cheap, but the Covid recovery surcharges being added on to every aspect of operating there lately have pushed the costs through the metaphorical ceiling. I can't see that you can make operating regional aircraft there work without some financial support (whether that's to/from IOM or anywhere else) and so no support = no route.

[IOMX]

Heathrow may not be the answer there was nothing wrong with London City it used to work just fine from there. The most important thing is a well timed morning and evening service.

[BA318]

LCY is rumoured to have some the highest charges around. Regarding your earlier point an E145 will be likely to use more fuel and still under 50 seats so even more costs divided between smaller number of passengers. It’s also not capable of landing at LCY so it would have to go back to the ATR or a Saab.

[Tonyq]

I see that EZY have reinstated the 'missing' Tuesday and Wednesday flights for November and are double daily on most other days. Gradually getting back to pre-CoVid frequency, although I appreciate the timings aren't great, and there's no other London options, as yet.

[BA318]

and plenty of seats available at £22.99 for those who book in advance.

[IOMX]

Thats all very well if you know your travel itinerary several weeks out . It’s a very strange situation where you have some people sat in a plane next to each other one playing £23 and other £500 . Before people reply I fully understand how the algorithm works I just don’t think it’s fair or right . And as I have mentioned before I doubt many people will even pay as little as £23 by the time you have added on for some sort of reasonable sized bag it starts to ratchet up . I think people need to understand that EasyJet are not the only answer for the Isle of Man it needs an early morning and evening flight . It would also be nice to have an airline supporting the local community including pilots and cabin crew rather than only one operator who frankly has very little if any interest in the island .

[SWBKCB]

Haven't we been round this circle more than enough times already?. If this is what the island needs, it needs to find a way that allows an airline to make a profit. Clearly no airline thinks they can at the moment.

[IOMX]

As I understand this is a forum for sharing views and opinions . As long as it is that I will continue to outline my position and comment on what I see is happening in the same I respect the views of all other members. Hopefully at some point somebody somewhere will wake up and sort out the problem.

[PV1]

Having followed this thread with interest, some amusement and as an ex operator it strengthens my believe that you cannot please all of the people all of the time!

[IOMX]

It really is fascinating to see how Easyjet operate. They continue to charge very high fares for a return flight from the Isle of Man to London Gatwick one I priced up was £388.00. Then take a look at Jersey they provide up to 3 flights a day from London Gatwick with the fare being for the same equivalent day £160.00! Clearly that's because the Isle of Man flights are near enough at full loads whereas Jerseys aren't which is hardly surprising when the Isle of Man only get one a day from them. Its also fascinating that the times across the week vary considerably ( some morning some evening, some midday) whereas Jersey is more consistent. I wonder why that is.

[BA318]

I suspect a more consistent offering is due to more consistent passengers. Airlines usually try to meet the demand that exists and perhaps slowly increase upon it over time. Jersey obviously has a customer base which travels more frequently and is more profitable for them. The same reason Jersey gets multiple daily BA mainline service and the IOM doesn’t.

[IOMX]

The whole thing is fascinating. Jersey also get 3 flights a day from British Airways flying into London Heathrow with an early morning off island flight 07.25am. Some days the fare into Heathrow is £23 at relatively short notice. Its amazing what several operators and some competition does isn't it. Maybe its the lack of competition that causes the Easyjet behaviour to the Isle of Man? Its also really interesting that those posters on here who love to sing the praises of Easyjet are relatively quiet at the moment and make no comment about their current fare structure.

[BA318]

As I mentioned before it may be that Jersey has people willing to pay £500 return for a Club Europe ticket or they are connecting to Business/First flights which more than cover costs but Y class might not have such high demand. There’s a lot more to it than fares on random dates. If BA were not making money on the route they wouldn’t stick around.

We’ve all been over this endless times. If there is business demand for such routes, carriers will add flights. They are not avoiding the IOM for some grudge.

[lfc84]

I am still here and reading but I've got better things to do than select random dates where easyJet will sell me a seat for 20 quid or less. I've also got better things to do than come on a forum moaning about Loganair and their flight times that don't suit me or their prices that I find are too high. Eg. Over 400 for 4 people to go to Edinburgh.

As I say, better things to do

Please excuse me whilst I go and book 8 easyJet flights for an average of £ 32.

[IOMX]

I don't doubt commercial operators will stick around if they are not making money. But something is odd. And perhaps as I and other posters have suggested the Isle of Man Government have a role to play maybe the Jersey government are doing more to encourage airlines....... just a thought.

[PV1]

The Jersey frequencies would indicate there is a far greater demand. Furthermore as has been mentioned BA are feeding their other services out of the LHR hub. IOM lost their LHR services a long time ago because there was not the same demand for point to point or inter line traffic as there was for Jersey.

[IOMX]

lfc84

Well please accept my apologies for doing some simple quick research , raising a matter and sharing an opinion that for some people is a real concern. Its great that you have a schedule that allows you to book so far ahead and I assume you don't have the need for a bag because you wont pay an average of £32 if you have even the smallest suitcase. Next time you fly think on that someone has paid Easyjet at least £380 for a seat probably next to you!

Finally such a shame Easyjet don't do Isle of Man to Edinburgh lets see how long it will take them to offer that service shall we!

[lfc84]

Isle of Man to London Gatwick Flight number
EZY852
Departure
09:55 Mon 11th OctArrival 11:10

Your fares
Adult
1 x £19.99

Add a Hands Free bag.£7.
56 x 45 x 25 cm

£26.99

[IOMX]

Thanks very helpful as you always are! You may also want to look at the 4 days prior to the 11th October which vary from £52.99 and £153.99 one way. And have you checked the size of bag? I have the smallest cabin size suitcase you can buy and it does not meet the Easyjet criteria so good luck travelling with clothes for £7!

[BA318]

I really don’t see the point in this. If you look at almost any route you will see variations in price. I fly LHR-ARN regularly. Sometimes I’ve paid £80 return and other times Economy seat only tickets have been £800 return or more! I know if i wanted a cheap ticket I had to book in advance. That’s the way tickets work. It’s not like Easyjet start off at £300 one way. They start much lower. If demand rises then of course the price will.

You seem to want some kind of price cap. Lobby your Gov for that. If introduced see if Easyjet stick around. You could end up with no flights to London.

[Asturias56]

"I fully understand how the algorithm works I just don’t think it’s fair or right ."

It's basic economics - I'm selling newspapers I'll sell some to people who want them regularly at price A, some to people who decide at the last moment they want one at price B and then, just before the new edition arrives and makes them worthless the rest at price C

Airline tickets are not a basic right - they're a commodity

[IOMX]

Well as I have said before this is a forum for opinions and comments and as long as it is such I will continue to share mine, pointless in your view or not! Anyway in response I would make the following comments

1) I am fully conversant with the way airlines operate their fare structures and the algorithms they use. That said I do not think it right that there can be such a variation in fares. Put it this way how would you feel if your local supermarket wanted to charge you £10 for their last loaf of bread that somebody a little earlier had paid 85p for? In my view its not morally right.

2) I have no desire to place a cap on fares rather I would expect a well known company who likes to at least create the impression of being a low cost airline to do the right thing by its customers. In effect there is some sort of cap the airline use because it stops at say £380 or whatever so if someone at Easyjet thinks that is acceptable I certainly don't especially for a once a day service to Gatwick at random times. I don't expect charity but I do expect a fair price.

3) Consider why Easyjet are flying three times a day to Jersey and their ticket prices are a fraction of those to the Isle of Man are they making no money there?

4) I do not believe that they need to run fares at £380 from London to the Isle of Man to make the route profitable. Its interesting that this has only happened recently when there is only one service a day and no alternative.

5) Its great that you have a schedule that allows you to book in advance maybe other people are less fortunate than you in this matter.

6) I would hazard a guess that the Isle of Man/ LGW route is one of Easyjets most profitable right now.

In summary my opinion is that something needs to be done to urgently improve connectivity and prices from the Isle of Man to London. Airlines, business and the Isle of Man government should be making this a priority to sort this out.

[BA318]

But pointing out the 11th October is 5x more expensive than the 4th or so on doesn’t change anything. We’re all aware that flights vary in prices. Easyjet exists to maximise the profit it can make for its shareholders - not to keep the people of the Isle of Man connected at reasonable prices. The “low cost” image is just marketing. The same as BA’s premium tag when the reality is most passengers are in economy being charged for baggage, food and seat reservations.

There are many reasons Easyjet might charge the prices they do to Jersey - costs could be much lower (do we know how much each airport charges?, fuel prices at the destination?). It may be that passengers at Jersey buy cheap tickets but also buy more bags than average and spend more on the flight. There are so many decision involved in revenue management that we can’t make assumptions based on the fares available on random dates.

If you can prove to an airline that you can fill a twice daily flight at a cost that keeps them happy then get in touch with them. There’s plenty of regional carriers - most have tried to serve the IOM at some point and left. Why?

Easyjet is either charging fares people will pay or it’s flying empty planes. If people are willing to pay their prices then good on them. They make profit which keeps the industry going. If they are flying empty planes then either they will lower costs or drop the route.

[IOMX]

Well there we have it and the above really does say it all. 1) The low cost image is marketing.......... well well well so its all a facade.2) Its simple re Jersey there are more flights and more competition that's why prices are lower. 3) It exists to maximise profit to shareholders............. companies that do that may benefit in the short term but they will suffer in the long term. Ask anyone who knows about business you look after your customers first and as long as you operate sensibly everything else flows from that.

[OzzyOzBorn]

The term 'LOW COST AIRLINE' is not and never has been a reference to the fares which customers pay. The term quite literally means that the inherent cost of operating the business is kept below those of traditional legacy carriers. This is achieved via the way the business is structured. What the customer actually experiences is a 'NO-FRILLS CARRIER' ... an airline which compartmentalises every aspect of the flying experience and charges by component of the itinerary ... add-on fees for all 'frills'. Note that whilst fares offered by these carriers often are attractively priced, they don't have to be. There is no implied promise that all customers will pay a low fare. These carriers are businesses which exist to maximise profits, and they do this by deploying yield-management software to maximise revenues like every other airline.

The paragraph quoted above is extracted from Post 261 on this thread in which I explained the true meaning of the term: 'Low Cost Airline'.

Why do people doggedly refuse to acknowledge the truth of this? 'Low Cost Airline' is all about the balance sheet. It is not a guarantee of low fares.

[IOMX]

I can assure you I fully understand that point . But I would respectfully suggest you put yourselves in the customers shoes because it’s them who ultimately makes a business successful . I would also hazard a guess over 99% of paying customers do not get your meaning of a low cost airline in post 261 nor should they especially when said airline likes to create the impression of low cost in their marketing . Also when their service is angled towards low cost i.e low frequency, lots of add ins for bags and so on . If you don’t believe me try asking a few !

It might also be worth reflecting on you don’t always have to go to your customers to maximise profit a lot of good businesses focus a lot on how to reduce their costs and maximise efficiencies .

it really is telling that some of you don’t realise the importance of good customer management when running a business ! In my view those businesses that take their customers for granted and operate in this way will by conventional wisdom end up paying the price in the long run .

[lfc84]

If you are contrained to booking late and don't like the cost, I suggest you book early. bag some of those £19.99 fares, and if you cant travel just move the flight. there are zero change fees with easyjet until the end of the year. if you are a flight culb member that's an ongoing benefit.

[BA318]

IOMX

Sorry but you’re trying to say you can run a business better than IAG or Easyjet? And it’s not taking their customers for granted. Easyjet offer plenty of cheap fares. If you can’t book in advance then that’s the reality. It’s the same with any airline or rail operator.

You also keep making a point about Easyjet charging for bags. On the base fare so do BA and they usually have a higher entry fare.

[IOMX]

I can assure I do not think I can run an airline far from it however what I do know about business is that if you fail to put your customers first it’s the beginning of the end . If you don’t believe me read any book by any leading businessman . From some of the above posts it seems as though some of you believe charging the customer the highest possible fare is the way to make the most out of the business and I am saying you do that at your peril it’s a very delicate balance. It may be fine now and in the short term off the back of the pandemic but customers have a habit of remembering and in the long run that’s not good for a business . Charging customers ludicrous fares for a short one hour flight that’s once a day and not even well timed or frequent is not good customer service . Especially when in other jurisdictions they are putting on multiple flights a day and charging a fraction of the price . Something does not seem right to me as the customer sorry .

[cavokblues]

Problem is if people don't like easyJet's prices or customer service they've nowhere else to go right now.

And if a new airline comes on the route easyjet may just capacity dump and slash prices to see them off the route and entice passengers back.

If customer service meant anything no one would fly Ryanair!

[Asturias56]

But if there is no competition they can't go anywhere can they?

I 've spent years traveling LHR- ABZ and BA have charged eye popping prices most of the time - but it's business travellers who pay them. If I don't want to pay I go Easyjet or whoever else is on the run - or even take train

Plenty of airlines have gone bust by not charging enough - very few by charging too much.

The IoM is a small customer base -and a limited tourist destination. Not surprising you have to pay more than say Jersey

[IOMX]

cavokblues

I think you have hit the nail on the head EasyJet will dump capacity to see others off and then revert back to their previous behaviour that’s what i am getting at with some of their outrageous ticket prices . This is why in my opinion a broader solution is required for a small island one EasyJet a day is fine but frequently matters too so needs to be supplemented with additional frequencies from a smaller airline . The Isle of Man government have a role to play here in some way shape or form .

[PV1]

I always thought that when EasyJet came on the route services wanted by the business community would suffer. The IOM market is too small to justify two or three services a day with +\-130 seat aircraft. The costs of 50 to 70 seat aircraft are too high to offer any seriously low fares. Even the business traveller will buy the lowest fare possible which means the airline offering frequency will lose the marginal traffic that allowed them to make a meagre living. The discretionary traffic will always take the lowest fare leaving the higher frequency airline making huge losses. Before COVID I am sure business travellers took a cheap easyJet fare one way and an expensive Flybe fare the other thus adding to Flybe’s problems. It’s a consequence of deregulation. Deregulation was never going to be good for everyone, especially low volume routes. In the old days Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man had certain routes designated as lifeline routes and London routes were certainly classified as such. This meant only limited operators on those routes. Jersey- London probably has the traffic not to need protecting , Guernsey decided to financially support its own airline which leaves the Isle of Man on its own. Under present regulations, I can only think of one way of providing frequency on the IOM-London routes and that would be to negotiate for it to become a PSO (Public Service Obligation) route. How I am not sure without further study or if it would be acceptable to the politicians. They would be blamed for stopping people having access to cheap fares! It appears there is a monopoly on the sea crossings, is everyone happy with that?As I have said before you can’t please all the people all of the time! An alternative might be to make the Island more desirable to the business sector by stopping the Financial Services companies charging exorbitant fees and making the Island more attractive to tourists by promoting the beauty of the place at affordable rates. That would be a longer term solution and would require a complete understanding as to why Jersey is so successful in the financial sector or if in the present “woke” culture if the offshore company and trust structure is the way to go.
This is such a complex problem which won’t be solved by wingeing on here. The IOM routes are unlikely to make or break easyJet and are probably the least of their problems at the moment.

[IOMX]

I agree with a lot of your comments here it is definitely a complex issue to solve which in my opinion requires the input from airlines, business and government. I don’t wish to come across as whinging though , my intention is to raise debate on this important matter and personally I find it helpful to hear others views it can further shape my understanding and views. But from my experience just sitting on your hands and saying nothing will only end up with one outcome …. nothing !

[BA318]

But that’s the point. I think we are all in agreement that it would be lovely to have Easyjet and a carrier operating a smaller more business focused option but the reality is you are stuck with what you have until you change the reality. History has shown, time and again that the business friendly option is not sustainable (airlines drop it) when up against a cheaper, less business friendly schedule.

It would seem your options are:
1. Lobby for restrictions to be brought in - fare caps, route licenses to make Easyjet cheaper, or reduce their frequency to say twice weekly to allow another option in
2. Creation of a local airline. Like Guernsey has which protects their link to Gatwick and can serve the perceived interests of the island. This is a financial black hole though so whoever funds it needs deep pockets.
3. Create demand to sustain more services. Few tourists and no attempt at promotion to the wider world mean few passengers. The local market obviously isn’t enough. The island needs to try to appeal to more. That costs money.
4. Accept the service you have, use it in the hope they add more services or another carrier sees Easyjet coining it on the route and decides to compete.

Perhaps a mix of all four is needed? But the only way it’s going to change at the moment is if the IOM Gov or businesses get involved and start putting their money where their mouth is.

[IOMX]

I totally agree . But like I have said isn’t it better to debate some of this and listen to others opinions because that way maybe you end up with the right solution and perhaps those involved ( notably government) might read these forums and that in itself will help them . However maybe it’s me but I get the impression some posters do think the sole answer is EasyJet and I really don’t think it is for a small island .

[PV1]

Surely it would be more productive to talk to the IOM Airports Board and you MHK’s rather than hope they will read this.

[AirLCY]

It wouldn’t be impossible for the island to incentive easyJet to provide a night stop, easyJet have previously been persuaded by places such as Inverness…..it just depends on the level of funding provided. Based on the abrupt end of the LM LHR service, the level of support is likely to be low.

With occasional dates seeing high fares and overall fares seemingly a little higher, easyJet will add more flights if they deem them to be delivering enough profit, or more than alternative destinations from the LGW network.

[IOMX]

PV1

Who said I haven’t ! Influencing can take place in a number of ways at multiple times. But maybe just maybe there is a chance that some of the key people do read these forums . Isn’t that the great thing about online forums they can potentially help shape thinking . Either that or a) not use them at all or b) just use them to be an extension of the EasyJet marketing department! My view is I will use all the opportunities open to me to ensure my opinion is heard and at the same time I will happily take note of others too . That’s how it should be .

[PAXboy]

I do not travel to the Island very often now but, when my mother was alive, I was on the route for over 25 years, from early 1980s to 2008. Viscounts, ATP, 146 etc. LHR, LPL, BHX, LTN, LGW.

I agree with the above but, sadly, no change will happen.

Your govt have tried various schemes over the last four decades and seen the way that airlines operate: Twice Manx and Twice BA etc. They do not have the money for direct injection. Jersey have been able (for whatever reasons) to maintain a single through line of their arrangement. IOM changed several times.
Any threat against EZY and their current way of doing things, they will threaten to leave and no one will be jumping in.
Post Covid, every commercial company is scrabbling to recover money, £1 at a time. As I have said in other forums, restaurant prices have jumped, supermarket prices are up and LHR T5 is going to charge £5 for drop off. Inflation is heading up and I see no let up to this.

[IOMX]

Well there is an election next week and a new government will be formed . They will need to recognise in a world post covid investment will be key . Having strong links with your neighbouring capital is in my opinion strategically important for onward investment . A once a day service at erratic times throughout the week is not the right answer . As one of the posters above put it this is a very complex problem and I don’t doubt it is very challenging especially in today’s world . But sitting around and doing or saying nothing will not help anybody in my opinion it’s far better to be up there forcing a debate and trying to make something happen .

[M-JCS]

The election won't change anything, and I say that after having lived for a very long time on the IOM and experienced many elections. In the end, any responsible business that feels stranded in the middle of the Irish Sea with no reasonable transport links to the rest of the world will leave the IOM at the earliest possible time. We did that, and I know of various other business people in the IOM who are trying to do that. The flight situation on the IOM will only continue to get worse as the IOM economy continues to worsen, all exacerbated by the actions and inactions of IOM Government..

[pabely]

Jersey based Travel company offering direct flights to Majorca next summer which appears to be Cityflyer equipment, if actually direct and not via another pickup UK airport then will be well used I think.

[flyerguy]

At the minute yes direct

[milleriom]

''Direct flights from the Isle of Man to Majorca will be introduced next summer as FlyDirect expands its service. Flights will run every Saturday between June and September 2022 from Ronaldsway directly to Palma Airport, meaning a stop off at a UK airport will no longer be necessary. The decision comes after a successful summer of direct flights from Jersey, and C.I. Travel Group Managing Director, Robert Mackenzie, says it’s no secret that travelling through major UK airports has become increasingly trying for islanders. Flights and inclusive holiday packages will be available to book online from next month.''

[BA318]

It’s been frequently asked why Jersey gets much better services than IOM so I thought this was interesting. On my BA flight to ARN last night, the WiFi home page and throughout the digital “high life” magazine there were adverts to “reconnect in Jersey”. I’ve never ever seen an advert for the IOM.

[JSCL]

Probably because BA don't fly here... I've seen plenty of IOM Locate ads in easy and Flybe mags pre-COVID.

[lfc84]

I realise easyJet haven't even started their Manchester service yet but does anyone have any insight as to whether this will be a year round service and therefore when the summer schedule will be confirmed ?

[euromanxdude]

I believe, it is just for the winter. But happy to be corrected!

[BA318]

BA are not selling flights to Jersey for next year at the moment. And even when BA did fly there there was never adverts. The BA network is huge. There’s also more to gain by advertising beyond your network than just to the people who would already come on Flybe and probably already knew the island.

[Asturias56]

"There’s also more to gain by advertising beyond your network "

But why advertise a destination you don't fly too? You're just helping other airlines - and worse working at cannibalising your own customer base - if they fly to the IoM with someone else they may not fly with you to Rome for example

[BA318]

Because to reach the IOM you need to start in the UK so should people want to get there they would still need to fly to UK.

This edition of High Life also had articles recommending Puerto Rico, Anguilla and Jodpur despite BA not flying direct to them.

Looking at the Emirates Open Skies magazine now too they also have ads for plenty of destinations they don't serve - Antalya, Sulawesi. And United's has features advertising destinations in Sweden and Santorini despite no UA flights.

Qantas has features on Oslo and Austin and adverts for cruises from Greece. Essentially its pretty common to have features or ads on destinations you perhaps don't serve direct. and a great way to raise awareness of a place beyond the usual suspects which we seemed to conclude the IOM needs to do.

And as I said, BA at the moment are not offering flights to Jersey from the Summer 22 timetable yet still have adverts for it.

[BAladdy]

BA are selling flights to JER. I booked a return trip for next August from LHR to JER on 30th September. Just checked and still showing as operating up to 5 x daily for next summer

[BA318]

Ah they have added them recently then. When news that they were cancelling LGW flights hit they removed Jersey from sale. It seems they have now moved the original LGW flights to LHR.

If Jersey ends up with 4/5 daily flights to LHR and the IOM has none it will be even more of reason for IOM to pull their finger out and try something different.

[IOMX]

This is exactly the point I and some others have made. If the airlines, business and government came together there would be a solution to the problem. Advertising the island is a good starting point. I remember going to the London travel show a few years ago there was a stand for the Isle of Man but it did not say how you could get there! simple basic things can make a huge difference. I am convinced that with the right thought this would get fixed. Interestingly one of the local politicians has called it out and said it needs to be a priority to fix so lets hope it is.

[lfc84]

easyJet have added additional LGW flights between 22 and 31 Oct. On the 31st there's 3 flights
As a result prices have come down alot

[Tonyq]

Those flights have been there since at least 23rd September.

Three flights on 31st October is TT Week frequency!

[lfc84]

Correct. However the 3rd flight is new / more recently added.

I thought the third flight on the 31st was worthy of mentioning within the context of the others

[IOMX]

Its great isn't it perhaps we should hold a party and celebrate! Easyjet have put three flights on for one Sunday and then reverted it back to one all the way through to Christmas. At a time when they have planes and crew available galore. What about enabling people to leave and return to the island on a sensible day trip? What about supporting local jobs? What about a frequency of service? I have consistently said let it run a once a day service supported by another service operating early morning off island flights and evening return. If Easyjet want to do that then fine but I doubt it or maybe I am missing something.

[BHX_007]

I'm think that this is a question of supply and demand. The demand for flights on that particular weekend is probably due to the end of the october half term holidays. To suggest that EZY should run further frequencies just because they have spare capacity is naive. There has to be the demand. EZY will never base at IOM, the days of a businessman commute to LHR and LCY 'day trip' are clearly over, commercially unviable.

[IOMX]

I agree its a question of supply and demand. However if you read my comments I don't actually suggest EZY should run further frequencies rather what I do say is it would be better if they offer a one a day service dropping in 156 seats of volume and leave someone else to operate some other services to provide more regularity. That way those people who are less worried about the time of travel and more focused on price get their service and those that need something early morning/evening also get catered for. I recognise its a complex problem but put government, airlines and business in a room a I suspect it will get fixed. The Isle of Man is exactly what is says .............an island! And connectivity to other geographies is strategically important especially a capital city. Switching around with multiple EZY flights at 156 seats each rotation is just not the answer in my view and those that celebrate it are more focused on their own agenda and needs than those of others!

[BA318]

Isn’t a bit pot calling the kettle black to complain that those happy with additional Easyjet rotations are focussed on their own agenda when you want less easyjet and more other services exactly for your own agenda.

At the moment I’d say be grateful for extra easyjet services because with the rest of the world opening back up it’s even less likely most others are going to look at the IOM.

[lfc84]

IOMX seems to have an issue with easyJet rather than the other operators who have withdrawn.

​​​​

[SWBKCB]

And connectivity to other geographies is strategically important especially a capital city

If it is strategically important it should be taxpayer funded if it isn't commercially funded.

[IOMX]

lfc84

But that is where you are entirely wrong I don't have an issue with Easyjet per se I have consistently said ( read my comments back if you need to) that they have a role to play. What I don't think is right is to keep flooding the market with 156 seats to squeeze others out then putting up prices. I think there are two groups of travellers

1)Those that are less worried about when they travel and are focused on price- Easyjet
2) Those that need greater frequency at convenient times and are prepared to pay more ( AN other ideally 50 or 76 seat operator)

Balancing 1+2 equals all travellers needs are catered for. If you only go for Easyjet the likely outcome is two flights a day at mixed times and that will certainly not meet the needs of category (2) travellers.

And I also agree it needs intervention from IOMG, and support to promote the island etc so its not all at the airlines doors so I really don't understand why I am so widely short of the mark which you all seem to think I am.

[lfc84]

If they only have one flight per day isn't that what you want
You say they're flooding the market. Doesn't look that way

[IOMX]

Ah apologies I was working off your earlier post were you were celebrating additional Easyjet flights going in. To be honest I know you are the defacto Easyjet Head of Marketing so I always assume you are fully informed and have an in depth knowledge. Must be about time for you to do your marketing pitch again?

[Alteagod]

I take it the BHD flights with LM have been canned?

[lfc84]

IOMX

Its not the first time you've posted this in relation to me personally. I lose all respect for any point of debate you make when you write a post which is so utterly ridiculous. You've lost your audience - well me for starters

[BA318]

Have to agree. People can be happy with the Easyjet offering without needing to be called names for it. At the end of the day Easyjet is the only one willing to fly London-IOM at the moment so any increase should be welcome.

[IOMX]

lfc84

I have tried all along to share my opinions and thoughts I appreciate others have different views and I respect that . But take a lot at this quote from earlier on in the year. I have outlined my position as clearly as I can I think it’s fairly balanced and respects the fact that some people value EasyJet and I have on a number of occasions accepted points well made . It’s a rare thing for anyone to actually do anything similar to any of mine but maybe I am so far off beam that’s why nobody says good point well made .

[mart901]

Alteagod

Yea they put them back and back, then U2 extended BFS into winter and they went off sale at the same point, not sure if that's the reason or if they'd already decided not to launch but they'd already chopped about a lot prior to that.

[euromanxdude]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/920x2000/4b0d5e55_f6d1_49b0_8fbb_46c725599fbe_93a581ba4a4cfc8619a3fa2 0767583c428b2a75a.png
Looks like once a day from mid March

[Haven't a clue]

I wonder what the aircraft does between arriving at Ronaldsway at 16.10 and departing for Dublin the next day at 10.40?

[lfc84]

I wonder what the aircraft does between arriving at Ronaldsway at 16.10 and departing for Dublin the next day at 10.40?
Living up to your name 😂

[Haven't a clue]

Ha..........!

[lfc84]

Some online travel agents are showing the IOM - DUB as two flights on some dates. For example, I checked Friday 16 September and theres a couple of agents showing flight 3213 at 1050. I haven't bothered to work out what date the extra flights start

Another thing I noticed is that there's zero Avios availability for reward flights on checking Avios.com

[Haven't a clue]

Probably a booking system Snafu then

[exchanged_gorilla]

I wonder what the aircraft does between arriving at Ronaldsway at 16.10 and departing for Dublin the next day at 10.40?


Probably a booking system Snafu then


The dates in that screenshot are over 2 weeks apart...
The aircraft doesn't sit around at IOM from 1610 until 1040 the next day.

The summer schedule kicks in on 27th Mar so EI3212/3213 moves to an afternoon departure from both DUB and IOM each day.

Quick look at the EI website shows:

16th Mar -
EI3212 DUB-IOM 0920/1010
EI3213 IOM-DUB 1040/1130

31st Mar -
EI3212 DUB-IOM 1520/1610
EI3213 IOM-DUB 1635/1725

[Haven't a clue]

Many thanks for the explanation. Couldn't believe Emerald would let their metal stand idle for all that time.

Incidentally I'm afraid the one and only EI flight I have ever taken was several years ago on an F27....

[euromanxdude]

I wonder what the aircraft does between arriving at Ronaldsway at 16.10 and departing for Dublin the next day at 10.40?

Apologies was doing a dummy booking, and picked random dates for times.

[EI-BUD]

The flights to/from Dublin are designed to connect with the transatlantic. It's been some time since IOM/DUB has operated.

[pabely]

Well you can't say EZY didn't give it a good try today, last Liverpool unfortunately on it's way back to LPL.
Loganair, should you have done better today? Are they CAT3 rated into LPL & MAN?

[lfc84]

Avios.com now showing reward availability for IOM-DUB
Total:4,500 + £39.70
Ridiculous!

[Dct_Mopas]

Well you can't say EZY didn't give it a good try today, last Liverpool unfortunately on it's way back to LPL.
Loganair, should you have done better today? Are they CAT3 rated into LPL & MAN?

No, the E135/145 and ATR’s will be a maximum of Cat II. If that. Certainly no autoland and is the issue Flybe used to suffer every winter.

[pabely]

How much for new fire engines!? I know they are expensive kit but really. True that they are too large to fit in the airport firestation?

[lfc84]

How much for new fire engines!? I know they are expensive kit but really. True that they are too large to fit in the airport firestation?
Google it and you'll see the RRP

[pabely]

My point was the new firestation to house this kit is not built yet, has it even passed the design stage?
Meanwhile the new kit sits in the elements getting a wash from the salty sea air!?

[milleriom]

My point was the new firestation to house this kit is not built yet, has it even passed the design stage?
Meanwhile the new kit sits in the elements getting a wash from the salty sea air!?

Apparently there is a temporary shelter.

[cumbrianboy]

No, the E135/145 and ATR’s will be a maximum of Cat II. If that. Certainly no autoland and is the issue Flybe used to suffer every winter.

The problem with the IOM is not really to do with the aircraft but more the airport. A standard CAT I approach requires 550m RVR but the IOM is 1000m because, when they extended the runway they didn't put in proper approach lighting. There is also, if my memory serves me right, an issue with doing a CAT II into the IOM because of the terrain profile at the end of the runway affects the rad alt. I am imagining EZY and Logan and the others all have the same issue coming into the IOM ..

If they could get the airport to CAT II standard ILS then the vast majority of lost approaches would go. There is still the issue of stonking cross winds but often it's doable, it's the combination of the vis and cloud base that makes it worse (plus the IOM has no equipment for measuring RVR so it's only standard MET VIS which is reported, so actually although the plate says 1000m RVR you can land in 800m met vis because it can be multiplied if the met vis is >=800m)

[lfc84]

In fog, easyJet will land when Loganair can't. That happened last week

[Saabdriver1]

That’s complete rubbish. All things are equal when it comes to IOM arrivals. If LPL or MAN arrivals are the issue, Cat III will be a differentiator. Best to get your facts straight though.

[oapilot]

In fog, easyJet will land when Loganair can't. That happened last week

Luck of the draw, if you’re in the right place at the right time you’ll see the lights and land. 2 minutes before or after you might or might not.

Nothing to do with EasyJet or Loganair.

[lfc84]

Loganair cancelled the entire day's schedule
easyJet came and landed

[Downwind_Left]

The problem with the IOM is not really to do with the aircraft but more the airport. A standard CAT I approach requires 550m RVR but the IOM is 1000m because, when they extended the runway they didn't put in proper approach lighting. There is also, if my memory serves me right, an issue with doing a CAT II into the IOM because of the terrain profile at the end of the runway affects the rad alt. I am imagining EZY and Logan and the others all have the same issue coming into the IOM ..

If they could get the airport to CAT II standard ILS then the vast majority of lost approaches would go. There is still the issue of stonking cross winds but often it's doable, it's the combination of the vis and cloud base that makes it worse (plus the IOM has no equipment for measuring RVR so it's only standard MET VIS which is reported, so actually although the plate says 1000m RVR you can land in 800m met vis because it can be multiplied if the met vis is >=800m)

Approach lighting actually becomes less important with low viz approaches. For a Cat III approach the approach lighting being u/s has no effect on your minima because you’ll never actually see it if landing in actual minimums.

Another significant issue for low viz ops at EGNS, is on RWY08 the ILS is offset from the runway by 4 degrees. So when you pop out of cloud you’re not actually pointing at the runway. The aircraft needs to be visually manoeuvred to line up with the runway. The higher minimas for that runway reflect that.

[Saabdriver1]

Lfc84, when you’ve understood the basics of how aircraft operate and why, then do pay us another visit. Meanwhile, I point you back to my answer earlier.

[lfc84]

Commercial decision to proactively cancel an entire day's schedule then. Thanks for your help

[Saabdriver1]

Nope. Met decision only. Grow up.

[oapilot]

Approach lighting actually becomes less important with low viz approaches. For a Cat III approach the approach lighting being u/s has no effect on your minima because you’ll never actually see it if landing in actual minimums.

Another significant issue for low viz ops at EGNS, is on RWY08 the ILS is offset from the runway.

For Cat III maybe, but for Cat I, poorer or fewer lights equals higher min viz to legally attempt the approach in the first place.

Another problem with 08 is the PAPIs are set to a different angle to the approach so getting 2 reds and 2 whites on an accurately flown approach at minima isn’t a given.

[cumbrianboy]

Approach lighting actually becomes less important with low viz approaches. For a Cat III approach the approach lighting being u/s has no effect on your minima because you’ll never actually see it if landing in actual minimums.

Another significant issue for low viz ops at EGNS, is on RWY08 the ILS is offset from the runway by 4 degrees. So when you pop out of cloud you’re not actually pointing at the runway. The aircraft needs to be visually manoeuvred to line up with the runway. The higher minimas for that runway reflect that.

you’re right approach lighting is less of an issue with CAT III approaches but it is very much the determining factor for the islenof man and their non standard cat I approach. The approach lighting is the most important factor for a CAT I as it’s a manual landing. CAT III is a different beast as it’s a mandatory auto land which is why it becomes less of an issue.

the isle of man is no where near CAT III and the aircraft that mainly use it are hot cat III capable.

if there was a way to get CAT II that would help more than anything else.

I’ve spent enough time at Kelly to have worked these things out …

[IOMX]

Lfc84, when you’ve understood the basics of how aircraft operate and why, then do pay us another visit. Meanwhile, I point you back to my answer earlier.

Perhaps Lfc84 could explain why on many times in the past when there has been fog EasyJet flights have been diverted back to Gatwick and London City have landed !

[pabely]

Were to SAABs HUD equipped, approved and drivers checked out to use them? If so then I think RVR minima goes down to 350m generally but local rules might be different.
I'm sure the drivers would be well skilled in being steep operational checked out for LCY.

[Saabdriver1]

The 2000s were Cat II, same as the ATR, but the HUDs were never used in the UK by either operator. They had sensibly been removed from several aircraft as it was all too easy to smack your head on them getting in and out of the seat.

[Musket90]

The lighting requirements for Cat II/III includes supplementary red approach lights for the inner 300m and runway touchdown zone lights. Also whilst the runway has centreline lights they are at 30m spacing and for Cat II/III ops it is desirable to have 15m spacing. As mentioned for Cat II/III approaches radio altimeter is used and if the pre-landing threshold area is not suitable for this then this may be a factor.

Regarding the minima for Cat I approaches the length of the approach light system does affect this and different operators will have different minima. In the case of runway 26 the approach light length is published as 360m which puts in to the "basic" category for air operations.

Airports have to make business decisions on whether the cost of installing Cat II/III approach and runway lighting and upgrading the ILS is actually worth it given the type and frequency of traffic being experienced and perhaps IOM decided it was too difficult because of the topography and wasn't worth the investment because of both, therefore wasn't worth the investment. Other airports I can think of which frequently experience low visibility but which have Cat I facilities only are in the Channel Islands..

[Dct_Mopas]

Other airports I can think of which frequently experience low visibility but which have Cat I facilities only are in the Channel Islands..

Jersey have LTS CAT 1 available to aircraft with autoland. So easyJet for example do autoland to LTS CAT 1 minima of 450m on runway 26.

Would help alot with the IOM if they could get LTS CAT 1 certified.

[Musket90]

Thanks Dct_Mopas. I understand Jersey has full facilties for 26 approach lighting (5 x crossbar 914 length) which I think helps as reading the rules for air operations about LTS Cat I it would suggest if the approach lighting length is "Basic" then 600m RVR/CMV would be the minima for LTS Cat I. I might have got this wrong though !

[RVF750]

When the Extension was done, the GP antenna was moved to the other side and relocated 60m closer to the sea. This was against the strong advice of all of the Island Operators present at an operations meeting held prior to this. The result was the minima was raised from 750m to 1000m as they effectively lost a line of approach lights to the threshold lighting.

Again, Auto landing aircraft must add to their landing distance usually 300m or so. Once you do that the runway length becomes marginal. CAT 2 approaches will never work when you are over the sea at 100ft. For a Cat 3 you'd be at 50ft and over the undershoot tarmac.

The only way that Ronaldsway would achieve all weather capability is to extend over the road. That isn't going to happen. it was shown many times to the airport director that the embedded lighting was poor compared to the previous gantry system, but she never really seemed to get it or care. So we have what we have. An airport where hardly anything actually works, be it car park barriers, radar, doors, escalator, cafe, you name it. There are a few fundamental things need sorting before they even look at improving aircraft's chances of getting in on foggy days.

[Mr Optimistic]

When the Extension was done, the GP antenna was moved to the other side and relocated 60m closer to the sea. This was against the strong advice of all of the Island Operators present at an operations meeting held prior to this. The result was the minima was raised from 750m to 1000m as they effectively lost a line of approach lights to the threshold lighting.

Again, Auto landing aircraft must add to their landing distance usually 300m or so. Once you do that the runway length becomes marginal. CAT 2 approaches will never work when you are over the sea at 100ft. For a Cat 3 you'd be at 50ft and over the undershoot tarmac.

The only way that Ronaldsway would achieve all weather capability is to extend over the road. That isn't going to happen. it was shown many times to the airport director that the embedded lighting was poor compared to the previous gantry system, but she never really seemed to get it or care. So we have what we have. An airport where hardly anything actually works, be it car park barriers, radar, doors, escalator, cafe, you name it. There are a few fundamental things need sorting before they even look at improving aircraft's chances of getting in on foggy days.
Is this all understood over there ? Sounds like a big step backwards so there must have been reasons ?

[oapilot]

Is this all understood over there ? Sounds like a big step backwards so there must have been reasons ?

Wasn’t this done so that they could get Airbus sized aircraft in?

[RVF750]

They could already get A320 and B737 and the occasional B757 in. Just quite compromised in terms of load for departures. It was indeed a big step backwards, wanted by nobody and has caused issues that continue. Then again, nothing done by IOM politicians in the last 20 years has gone right......Wit hthe exception of the Pinewood sharess, that turned a profit.

[pabely]

Hats off to EZY when the LPL went tech today, sent a replacement from MAN and pax now at their destination.

[BA318]

Hats off to EZY when the LPL went tech today, sent a replacement from MAN and pax now at their destination.

Surprising considering how some users here constantly tell us Easyjet don’t care about the IOM and it’s passengers.

[Albert Hall]

If you can keep a delay under three hours, you avoid 261 compensation and so you do everything you practically can to minimise the delay. I wouldn't have thought the fact it's the Isle of Man really has anything to do with it - it's a delay in the network and a capable Ops team should be trying to keep it short.

[pabely]

Surprising considering how some users here constantly tell us Easyjet don’t care about the IOM and it’s passengers.
That was my point!

[wanna]

If you can keep a delay under three hours, you avoid 261 compensation and so you do everything you practically can to minimise the delay. I wouldn't have thought the fact it's the Isle of Man really has anything to do with it - it's a delay in the network and a capable Ops team should be trying to keep it short.

Is 261 valid for flights originating in IOM? Or is it like the Channel Islands where its not applicable.

[lfc84]

Is 261 valid for flights originating in IOM? Or is it like the Channel Islands where its not applicable.
Of course it's valid

[IOMX]

Surprising considering how some users here constantly tell us Easyjet don’t care about the IOM and it’s passengers.

Yes great to see. I would take a higher view of Easyjet though if they were offering a better service to London than one flight a day at random times throughout the week!

[virginblue]

If you can keep a delay under three hours, you avoid 261 compensation and so you do everything you practically can to minimise the delay. I wouldn't have thought the fact it's the Isle of Man really has anything to do with it - it's a delay in the network and a capable Ops team should be trying to keep it short.

How full are flights these days? You may hae a point if a flight is fully booked and the majority of pax claim their compensation. But these days, with airplanes flying around half empty at best, we are looking at different figures. Not sure if the risk of having to actually pay out maybe 30 or 40 claims if, say half of the pax make a claim and push it trough, is worth the trouble if you are not committe to customer services.

[BA318]

Loganair are relaunching IOM-LCY from 19th April (6weekly rising to 10 weekly in May) and IOM-LHR from 3rd May (daily)

Source: Seanm1997 on Twitter

Time for the IOM to use it or lose it.

[milleriom]

Loganair are relaunching IOM-LCY from 19th April (6weekly rising to 10 weekly in May) and IOM-LHR from 3rd May (daily)

Source: Seanm1997 on Twitter

Time for the IOM to use it or lose it.


Also from 3 May Loganair are launching one daily rotation IOM-LHR (Heathrow)

[lfc84]

Also from 3 May Loganair are launching one daily rotation IOM-LHR (Heathrow)
We know. It's in the post you quoted

[IOMX]

Loganair are relaunching IOM-LCY from 19th April (6weekly rising to 10 weekly in May) and IOM-LHR from 3rd May (daily)

Source: Seanm1997 on Twitter

Time for the IOM to use it or lose it.

Fantastic news a good balance enabling those that want a cheaper flight at less convenient times to choose Easyjet and those that need an early morning departure and premium airport can choose Loganair. Agreed its now up to people to use it but it was not that long ago quite a few posters here said it would never happen and I was talking rubbish! I think indeed someone said we will soon see who is right!!!!!!!! Well done to all those involved in arriving at a very sensible outcome.

[milleriom]

We know. It's in the post you quoted

Sorry, I fast skim read it in a meeting and missed the last phrase. What very good news it all is. Here is some more detail: The new services will initially be offered as a daily flight (except Saturdays) before gearing up to two flights each weekday from Tuesday, May 3. From that date, the new schedule of morning and evening flights will offer a day-return capability in each direction, plus a flight in each direction on Sunday evenings.

The service between Isle of Man and London Heathrow will commence from Tuesday, May 3, with a daily service designed to offer connections with Loganair’s major partner airlines including British Airways to a wide range of destinations worldwide, including key points in Europe, North America and South Africa.

Both the London City and Heathrow routes will be flown under Loganair’s codeshare agreement with British Airways so Avios and Tier Points can be earned on them.

Tickets for the new flights will go on sale next week.

These flights have been facilitated after considerable efforts by three IOM Government departments - the Dept of Infrastructure (which runs the IOM Airport), the Department of Enterprise (who led on this) and of course Treasury (for obvious monetary reasons!).

[virginblue]

To be honest, we will see quite a few unusual routes/airlines at LHR over the coming years as for the first time in 20 or 30 years (useful) slots there are up for grabs due to collpased international air travel. Not all airlines servig LHR are able to hold on to their precious slots by shifting from long-haul to short haul like BA is doing with the opening of some exotic routes from LHR to places like PDL or NUE.

The really interesting question is if those airlines now launching at LHR will keep those routes once air traffic has recovered, slots at LHR again become scarce and sought after and the market for slot trading is revived. If I were an airline executive, I would try to open up routes to LHR now by getting my hands on slots returned by longhaul airlines into the slot pool, grandfather those slots with the help of some start-up incentives from the other end of the route and use those slots as some sort of mid-/long-term investment that can be divested when cash is needed in the future.

[IOMX]

I just booked tickets from Isle of Man to London Heathrow with Loganair I paid £140. Great news that there are now regular timed services into London City and London Heathrow so that those who want to fly into a premium airport can and those more casual flyers can still fly with Easyjet into London Gatwick. This is the outcome I was proposing last year and suggested a fare structure of £150-£180 return would work. Interesting that some posters on here said it would never happen, I had no idea and I was just dreaming. Well the good news it did happen ! Happy flying.

[BA318]

I just booked tickets from Isle of Man to London Heathrow with Loganair I paid £140. Great news that there are now regular timed services into London City and London Heathrow so that those who want to fly into a premium airport can and those more casual flyers can still fly with Easyjet into London Gatwick. This is the outcome I was proposing last year and suggested a fare structure of £150-£180 return would work. Interesting that some posters on here said it would never happen, I had no idea and I was just dreaming. Well the good news it did happen ! Happy flying.

I don’t believe people said it would never happen. More that it would only happen with subsidy from business or IOM gov. This is exactly what is happening. The IOM Gov has stepped in to help.

[IOMX]

Its interesting to see how some people like to rewrite history regarding their comments! And its not a subsidy they are underwriting a certain number of seats which is different.

[Asturias56]

" And its not a subsidy they are underwriting a certain number of seats which is different."

How? It's a guaranteed income per flight - that sounds like a subsidy to me...................

[Mr Optimistic]

Use it or else....
https://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/new-london-flights-use-it-or-lose-it-says-enterprise-minister/

[BA318]

Its interesting to see how some people like to rewrite history regarding their comments! And its not a subsidy they are underwriting a certain number of seats which is different.

That’s literally a subsidy and I’m not rewriting anything. I’ve always said the only way this kind of service would reappear was with local gov support.

[Persimmon]

Whilst the focus of this thread in recent days has been in respect of the various London destinations, it should be noted that, yesterday, Aer Lingus resumed flights to/from Dublin after an absence of a week short of two years. The Aer Lingus Regional service is now operated by Emerald Airlines. Currently, the Aer Lingus website only offers Dublin as a destination so onward connections (North America etc) will need to be booked separately.
Initially, weekday flights to Dublin are timed to depart at 10.40 a.m. but from 28th March, they move to 16.45 p.m. so no chance of same day transatlantic connection. Still, U.S pre-clearance in Dublin is a positive.

[PAXboy]

I know there have been two Manx Air. Does anyone know the dates of each iteration? I know their fate but not the date;) Cheers.

[Tonyq]

I know there have been two Manx Air. Does anyone know the dates of each iteration? I know their fate but not the date;) Cheers.

Assuming that you are referring to 'Manx Airlines', then, as usual, Google! is your friend.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manx_Airlines

[PAXboy]

Ah, thank you. I had thought the first company was later.

[pabely]

Why cannot a 88 seat plane have secure overnight parking for footie fans visiting for a game with IOM FC on Saturday night?

[Tonyq]

Why cannot a 88 seat plane have secure overnight parking for footie fans visiting for a game with IOM FC on Saturday night?

Because the people running the Airport, and their masters at the Department of Infrastructure, just love being bloody mind and awkward.......

[Persimmon]

Why cannot a 88 seat plane have secure overnight parking for footie fans visiting for a game with IOM FC on Saturday night?

It's a total disgrace and embarrassment. Back in January this year, Enter Air had no such problems parking their B737-800 at Ronaldsway the night before they operated a charter to Finland so what's the difference?
Also, on a related subject, there are rumours circulating on a local forum that small private aircraft are to be banned from visiting Ronaldsway during the TT festival this year.

We seem to be going backwards when one would have thought we need all the visitors we can get.

[pabely]

Probably someone from DOI was booked on flight so no issues then.

As far as banning private flights during TT, that will be good for those who can afford VVIP Tickets on Senior Race day, sorry you will have to take your chance with LOG or EZY!!

Open up Jurby Airfield again!

[pabely]

Oh dear, a few National fans disappointed, hope EZY could pick up the slack or as they say here, there is a boat in the morning!

[RVF750]

The Loganair ATR went tech in Liverpool last night. Just poor timing really. These things happen. Far too often for a 6 year old aircraft though..

[pabely]

What is more worrying is an EZY sitting on tarmac for 1 hour due to ATC staffing issues ready to go.

[pabely]

Ah, thank you. I had thought the first company was later.
https://simpleflying.com/isle-of-man-short-lived-airlines/

[lfc84]

Somewhat poorly written article. One suggested edit is that Citywing started after Manx2 ceased operations almost immediately following an accident that resulted in deaths. Manx2 also went to Blackpool and Gloucester.

It ignore easyJet who currently operate and have continued to do so for something like 12 years.

A pretty shoddy article actually

[pabely]

As Simple Flying usually are but made be think that the question about old Manx airlines had only be used about recently, it sprang to mind.

[Aero Mad]

The incorrect bits of a Wikipedia page + poorly chosen Cirium data + misread them + typos = Simple Flying article.

[IOMX]

Somewhat poorly written article. One suggested edit is that Citywing started after Manx2 ceased operations almost immediately following an accident that resulted in deaths. Manx2 also went to Blackpool and Gloucester.

It ignore easyJet who currently operate and have continued to do so for something like 12 years.

A pretty shoddy article actually

One could argue that yours is a pretty shoddy response! You say it ignores Easyjet but it also makes no reference to Loganair, Flybe or Aer Arann the article is clearly referring to Isle of Man airlines.

And the article says Manx 2 had services to several UK destinations so I would think that includes Blackpool and Gloucester!

[lfc84]

One could argue that yours is a pretty shoddy response! You say it ignores Easyjet but it also makes no reference to Loganair, Flybe or Aer Arann the article is clearly referring to Isle of Man airlines.

And the article says Manx 2 had services to several UK destinations so I would think that includes Blackpool and Gloucester!
My response was pretty shoddy. But that because I've got better things to do.

But Simply Flying on the other hand....

[Tonyq]

The incorrect bits of a Wikipedia page + poorly chosen Cirium data + misread them + typos = Simple Flying article.

I haven't read much on Simple Flying for years, as I genuinely thought it was written by 12 year olds.

[Haven't a clue]

Have to take No2 son to go to look at UK Unis in a couple of weeks time. Need to fly to London. Outbound easyJet to LGW works, civilised (0955) departure, around £60 each for 3. £180 in total. Thought we'd return from LCY which we used a lot pre covid. Er, Loganair want £174. On a Thursday. Each. £521 in total. Guess what I'm not going to do?

IOMX - I don't think this will be continuing post September....sorry!

[IOMX]

Have to take No2 son to go to look at UK Unis in a couple of weeks time. Need to fly to London. Outbound easyJet to LGW works, civilised (0955) departure, around £60 each for 3. £180 in total. Thought we'd return from LCY which we used a lot pre covid. Er, Loganair want £174. On a Thursday. Each. £521 in total. Guess what I'm not going to do?

IOMX - I don't think this will be continuing post September....sorry!

Its great that you are so positive! Actually I could argue differently clearly people are booking it. I booked in advance and paid £74 you can get seats in July for £74. We all now airline algorithms cause the prices to rise as the plane fills up. And if you don't believe me try booking an Easyjet flight from Gatwick on Sunday 24th April and you will pay £259 one way before bags!

[lfc84]

Its great that you are so positive! Actually I could argue differently clearly people are booking it. I booked in advance and paid £74 you can get seats in July for £74. We all now airline algorithms cause the prices to rise as the plane fills up. And if you don't believe me try booking an Easyjet flight from Gatwick on Sunday 24th April and you will pay £259 one way before bags!
If people are booking Loganair to London....great ....

In that case it will continue and its users will be happy
let's see what happens. They said use it or lose it.

The passenger figures will be interesting
Loganair on the 24 April is £144.
Quite a difference

[IOMX]

Yes so Loganair on this occasion are exactly half the price of Easyjet on a like for like basis ( i.e bags included). And for the record I don't doubt that Easyjet will mostly be cheaper offering a random timed service I would expect that. So if its a ticket price you are worried about then that is your option. Some of us prefer to have greater flexibility in the timetable and a proper London airport at least now there is the choice and if you book ahead there is not much difference in price either!

I stand by my point if people remain positive then there are now flight options for getting to/from the island for everyone. If people book them then that's more money on island and that is only a good thing.

[easyflyer83]

Yes so Loganair on this occasion are exactly half the price of Easyjet on a like for like basis ( i.e bags included). And for the record I don't doubt that Easyjet will mostly be cheaper offering a random timed service I would expect that. So if its a ticket price you are worried about then that is your option. Some of us prefer to have greater flexibility in the timetable and a proper London airport at least now there is the choice and if you book ahead there is not much difference in price either!

I stand by my point if people remain positive then there are now flight options for getting to/from the island for everyone. If people book them then that's more money on island and that is only a good thing.

Unfortunately, ‘positivity’ has little bearing on airline economics. EasyJet, Loganair or otherwise.

[Haven't a clue]

Well to close this out booked the three of us on easyJet. Same day, similar timed evening service.

Loganair wanted £174 each. Paid easyJet in total £99; £33 each. Go figure!

Mind you I imagine a large chunk of the Loganair fare was LCY's charges. Just looked back at my 2019 tickets which show airport charges of £71 for a round trip. Of which LCY took the lion's share.

[IOMX]

Well to close this out booked the three of us on easyJet. Same day, similar timed evening service.

Loganair wanted £174 each. Paid easyJet in total £99; £33 each. Go figure!

Mind you I imagine a large chunk of the Loganair fare was LCY's charges. Just looked back at my 2019 tickets which show airport charges of £71 for a round trip. Of which LCY took the lion's share.

Well that’s good that you have got that . The LCY is only once a day from tomorrow but in a few weeks time there will be two a day one morning one early evening. Some people want flexibility and timings others like you focus on price . That’s called choice and it’s a good thing .

[SWBKCB]

Loganair wanted £174 each. Paid easyJet in total £99; £33 each. Go figure!

Am I the only one that doesn't find the Loganair fare unreasonable - other examples from LCY

BA LCY-EDI Thursday 28 April - 17.20 dep £182

BA LCY-GLA Thursday 28 April - 17.00 dep £243

BA LCY-BHD Thursday 28 April - 18.55 dep £217

[jmdavies86]

Loganair wanted £174 each. Paid easyJet in total £99; £33 each. Go figure!

It's worth noting that easyJet operate an A319/20, which means that they have got far more seats available to offer at lower fares, compared to the ATR that Loganair use.

Also, Loganair offer an inclusive hold luggage allowance of between 15-30kg, depending on which fare you go for, and complimentary refreshments - you'd have to pay to check a bag in and also for anything you buy onboard with easyJet.

[businessair75]

It's worth noting that easyJet operate an A319/20, which means that they have got far more seats available to offer at lower fares, compared to the ATR that Loganair use.

Also, Loganair offer an inclusive hold luggage allowance of between 15-30kg, depending on which fare you go for, and complimentary refreshments - you'd have to pay to check a bag in and also for anything you buy onboard with easyJet.

For the sake of balance, easyJet offers fares that include all that too, though the fare is of course more expensive than a standard fare. How it stands up price wise against Loganair, I'm not sure.

[tictack67]

For the sake of balance, easyJet offers fares that include all that too, though the fare is of course more expensive than a standard fare. How it stands up price wise against Loganair, I'm not sure.


​​​​​Surely fare on transport at the other end is a factor, from memory LGW express is £40 return per person into London

[lfc84]

​​​​​Surely fare on transport at the other end is a factor, from memory LGW express is £40 return per person into London
Get a Thameslink plus travelcard and it's about £13. Gets you around London and is a walk up fare.

[pabely]

Why cannot a 88 seat plane have secure overnight parking for footie fans visiting for a game with IOM FC on Saturday night?
Now IOM FC have been promoted we would expect bigger clubs and more travelling fans so this needs sorting!