Displaced Local Crew

[The FUB]

60+ 747 SOs made redundant now been given job letter

[cxflog]

There wasn’t even 60 SO’s on the 747 that were made redundant...

[Curry Lamb]

Good news for them, although it remains to be seen how the Immigration Department will handle this.
Plenty of qualified “locals”, unless off course a little under the table deal and a fist bump took place last week :rolleyes:

[lee_apromise]

BalloonBuster

There it is, another almighty expat mentality lol. Sometimes I wonder what's in these people's heads.

Certainly locals who have 4 years bachelor degrees are much more well educated than those expats who are just high school graduates who know nothing but flying in their "suitably qualified" lives.

[Hotoffthepress]

Curry Lamb

Some positive news at least. Of the displaced, CX were always going to rehire their own first, no questions asked. They may already be type-rated on the 747.

It also looks like CX have retained the rights and inherit KA destinations, to be split amongst UO.
Already updated on the HKExpress website.

[JMock]

lee_apromise

so these highly educated locals should have no trouble securing alternative employment.

Save all uneducated expat pilots

I’d buy that t shirt

[Rie]

Hotoffthepress

There is a list floating around with the divided up routes. Mainly longer ones to CX with UO getting some shorter routes and opening up to the Philippines.

[lee_apromise]

JMock

Oh they better thank KAL management (yes, all uni graduates so you better buy that tshirt) and the union temporarily agreeing recalling expats on 747 and 777 fleet and yet we see expats with stinky attitude towards locals on pprune.

I dont have beef with expats, but i do when they have stinky attitude towards locals. Don't bite the hand that feeds you but apparently some people don't have brains.

[Oasis]

lee_apromise

Don't let a few bad apples spoil the lot, by far most expats and locals get along swimmingly and don't have racist attitudes towards each other.
You can't deny most local pilots don't have much light aviation experience, but in the end it doesn't make that much of a difference.
Cathay has always been a bit of a cultural melting pot in the cockpit and in the back, which makes it all the more interesting...

[Curry Lamb]

Hotoffthepress

Until GREATER BAY AIRLINES enters the race early next year.
Wong already made it clear that KA slots should be made available to ALL airlines in HK, so UO doesn’t automatically pick up where KA left off.
I smell some more court cases coming the CX way, if they’ve gone and updated websites.
The flying public will have a choice, CX group monopoly is dead in the water.

[Zapp_Brannigan]

I am sure the perfect safety record of CX come from the vast variety of background and experience of the flight crew.

Make it all French and you become another AF.
Make it all local and you become another KAL or Asiana.
Make it all American and your SOPs mean nothing.
Make it all German (or Oz) and there goes your CRM
Etc...
I've got more stereotype if people don't feel offended enough.

All cultures and educations have their strengths and their flaws.
What you want is a good mix of them so everybody benefit and learn from their colleagues' strengths.

I will truly miss that diversity.
No other airline in the world come close to CX in that regard (except maybe EK).
Unfortunately, it seems that safety doesn't matter enough anymore and the risk of having a hull loss is acceptable and accounted for. They will, as always, blame the individual and not the system that created him.
​​

[Walkingthedog]

Curry Lamb

CX really does need competition not only for the travelling public but industrially. With a near complete monopoly they can dictate to the union, tear up contracts and generally bully whoever they please. If there’s no free market there are no market forces to check corporate greed.

[chards]

Sorry Curry but you are full of it. You think routes will be taken from CX and given to Greater Bay? Why do you think CX chose now to close Dragon? Greater Bay doesn’t have an AOC yet so they can’t be given routes.

[Curry Lamb]

There you go cup cake:

https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1556172-20201022.htm

And in case you haven’t noticed, CXi and UOme are not exactly at 100% capacity right now, and won’t be for the next 12-24 months either.

The jackbooted thugs up north looks after their own, and I’m sure the Wong guy is well connected.

[cxflog]

Walkingthedog

Corporate greed will continue to go unchecked regardless of a monopoly or not. Why do you think most airline contracts continue to decrease around the world as time goes on. The writing is on the wall but most decide not to observe it

[Sam Ting Wong]

Chard is correct, they don't have an AOC and hence are not able to apply (yet). All there is right now is an alleged intent. Also CX never had a full monopoly, there have always been some noisy neighbours around...

[Dragon Pacific]

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/transport/article/3113782/cathay-pacifics-foreign-pilots-struggling-get-hong-kong

Made it to the SCMP at last. How predictable that Cathay cite the freighter and vaccines. KA pilots would need very little training to fly green instead of red. Nor is it about foreign vs local. It is PR vs non-PR.

[Walkingthedog]

especially so as 777 guys are being trained in the 320🙄

[pfvspnf]

who is getting visa now ? Problem over ? What about touristic visa ?

[Rie]

I don't really understand why you are so invested in every single forum. Bit bored old chap?

Put simply, problem always as this is a pandemic, no tourists until minimum 31 March, Visa renewals 3 months happening and no new visas or employees.

[ascalehero]

Seems like still no solution to this problem? Surely these ex KA guys have more self respect than to hang around HK and demand the jobs of CX guys here on visas.
I think most of the pilot community truly felt sorry for the way management axed those who had given years of their career for dragon. I also think most would agree it would make sense for cx to consider those made redundant when they next hire before hiring foreigners on visas in the future.
But to suggest and actively push to have work visas stripped and extensions not provided for those currently at CX so you can maybe have a shot at their job is a pretty low level to fall too. Why drag others down just because you are suffering? Cathay are still overstaffed so the only result of this will be more pilots loosing their job and the Dragon guys who caused it still won't be needed for their fantasy 320 spots.
Let's not forget who the enemy is and it isn't each other.

[Walkingthedog]

I think you’ll find most of the expats have left it’s too expensive to do otherwise.
It’s not just a cx “problem” it impacts all HKG carriers. As to stripping work visas that’s the immigration departments remit not the pilots. It would be naive to assume that they “missed” the fact that ka was shut down. In this town it’s rare that individual cases could ever impact policy.
As to cx being overmanned knowing their track record do you really think they keep people on out of the goodness of their heart or not simply because a few ex ka locals might complain?

[lee_apromise]

But to suggest and actively push to have work visas stripped and extensions not provided for those currently at CX so you can maybe have a shot at their job is a pretty low level to fall too. Why drag others down just because you are suffering?

Because locals are locals and foreigners are foreigners.

[Walkingthedog]

ascalehero

just a question then. It’s acceptable to make ka staff redundant for economic reasons but not cx?

[Oasis]

If it was ka that bought cx, it would be a reverse situation, no doubt.

[mngmt mole]

Unfortunately, once the company headed down the "local" road (way back in 1988...) it was inevitable that this situation would eventually push its way to the forefront. There is virtually no country that will displace its local talent for the sake of expats. I always believed that one day CX would cease to be an expat company, and in some ways I am surprised it has taken this long. Certainly the political pressure from hundreds of out of work local pilots was always going to pressure change, and once they closed KA it was inevitable the issue would be pressed ahead.

Arguably there is no turning back for the aviation industry in HK. To be fair, the issue is also manifesting itself in the banking industry, with the banks reducing their expat count as more and more local bankers assume the positions of higher responsibility. They become the leaders, and their natural affinity is to hire from a similar background.

It became an accepted "truism" that CX would always be an "expat" airline...until it wasn't. I sympathise for the many expats who internally rationalised that CX was their " career" airline. Unfortunately, the changes in the past year in both the airline and HK have quickly swept that conceit aside. We were always just the hired help, and a new reality has replaced the old comfortable logic, one that no longer applies. I remember an ex CEO tell me back in 1992 that we (the A scale) would "die on the vine". Well, the vine is now withered and about to be discarded...

There will be some expats employed by CX for many years yet, but it will be on strictly local terms and only if they are required for specific job skills. I don't believe "pilot" will remain in that category for too much longer...

[Walkingthedog]

You are right. When I joined it was with the understanding that I was joining a local airline and that inevitably once a local workforce was established I’d be surplus to requirements. With that went expat “perks”.
I was told I’d get 10 years 15 at best. I was fortunate that the market was strong and the post handover concept of PR kept me employed (well until recently).
Another aspect is that most of the locals are constrained by their passport and license to working in HKG (even if they got a foreign license they’d be unlikely to get a work via).
One has to look at this from all angles. It’s a mess and the company really should have seen it coming.
Honestly if I were a local I’d be fed up. If the boot we’re on the other foot In sure the cx pilots would feel the same.

[mngmt mole]

Unfortunately, like most issues to do with CX, it has turned into the biggest mess possible (that is the one constant in my career....major management foul-ups). Beginning back in 1988 with the localisation program, to ASL, the basing debacle, housing, staff travel, multiple different COS...etc etc...this company has written the industry book on how not to manage an airline. Now, with the cruel scythe of covid through our midst, the consequences of nearly all of those things together have combined to effectively destroy the careers of all their present staff. As you say, no one is happy and if the shoe was on the other foot we'd be equally upset.

The sooner the individual recognises the reality of what CX has now become, the sooner they can make a more informed decision as to their long term future. With the luxury of being at the end of the career, it is obvious that there is no real career left to be had in CX. It has become, and will remain an asian LLC with a more impressive name and reputation (that won't last over the long term however).

I truly feel sorry for all involved, as it really is not the fault of anyone other than a cynical and greedy Swire management cabal. Merlin and family have forgotten who really provided them with this fading jewel in the region, and it is on their heads that I place most of the blame. They and their sycophantic Swire "princes" have conspired to steal all value to themselves, and have cast asunder all the hard working employees that truly created this company.

The only decision to be made now is for each individual to assess where their long term interests best lie. I suggest it is no longer in HK or CX. MM

[ascalehero]

ascalehero

just a question then. It’s acceptable to make ka staff redundant for economic reasons but not cx?

A little. Cathay is the core brand and has the fleet to operate KA flights. KA on the other hand is a subsidiary and does not have the fleet to operate long haul. Seems to make sense.

Is the aim here for KA guys to be rehired as COS18 SOs or direct entry FOs and Captains on a320?

[volare_737]

Tp pre empty being shoot down, I am an expat here on a working visa, but we have to understand and eventually accept that we are expats here and have a job when needed and ones not needed anymore its time to go home. There is no first world country in this world which would dish out working visas should there be local citizens out of work. I don't know why this is so hard to understand , and as far as I am concerned one should come to foreign countries with a mindset that things can change very quickly and not look for a job until retirement . It might have been like that but unfortunately those times are over. And for some of us foreigners who still believe the world won't work without us , have another look at reality !!!!

[Progress Wanchai]

Volare_737,

That’s a refreshingly mature post. The unfortunate circumstances that this year has brought to us all has wide ranging implications. Pilots have a unique inability to comprehend scenarios unless they’re at the centre of it with some degree of control over.

The severe restrictions placed upon businesses has had a devastating affect on the labour workforce. The Hong Kong government, like virtually every other government that relies on a work visa program to cover shortfalls in skilled labour, is reviewing its General Employment Policy (GEP) across a range of industries and occupations, not just aviation and pilots. To suggest that if a handful of expats simply “go home” (forgetting for a moment that the requirement for PR is that you’ve made Hong Kong your permanent home) will solve the government’s GEP issues is naive in the extreme.

[bacou]

ascalehero

I am hanging around Hong Kong as I own my flat here, have nowhere else to live and only have a rating on my Hong Kong licence which limits the options for jobs.

Consider those made redundant when they next hire, that's a good way to value pilots who've spent many years flying aircraft and making money for the group.
As you said, don't forget who the enemy is, CX management breached immigration law when they made Permanent residents redundant and kept Visa workers. You can't blame KA pilots for that.

What's coming next is that CX and most Hong Kong airlines will run short of crews when months after months Visa workers end up going back home and CX won't have any other choice than offering jobs to ex-KA staff.
As I said, not our fault, if anyone is to blame, it's a management that, after spending 6 months doing nothing rushed a redundancy and forgot immigration and labour law.

[Curry Lamb]

Fully agree with the typical knee jerk reaction of CX management.
They only had 9 months to consult with lawyers, Govt officials, Immigration, unions etc etc.
Some things will just never change.


Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

Unfortunately there’s not going to be a massive re-hiring and recruitment drive for the CX group. Lean and mean would be the only way forward, couple of 320/321 flying the “rice bowl”. And a handful long haul destinations on the A50 for rich locals bailing out.

Tourism for HK is dead in the water, transit flights, hub-and-spoke model yesteryears news.

What was once labelled as Asias World City is now Just Another China City, and CX just another LCC competing with the high rollers.

[hyg]

bacou
​​​​​​
Why do you think CX or its lawyers didn't think of the visa issue, may be that's the way they wanted it... thinning the herd by the 'oh sorry it's not our fault that the HK gov doesn't wanna give u a visa'.... don't forget the 2 party nominated secretary on the board

[swh]

There is virtually no country that will displace its local talent for the sake of expats.

This is rife in HKG across many sectors. If you know anyone in the corporate jet area ask them about how pilots from just south of HKG have come in and displaced locals offering to work for half or a third of the pay. They had the 852 pilots group on Facebook setup for this. The owners don’t care, they get their hired help cheaper and keep the difference.

[ToCatLady]

How much were the displaced KA lot given when they shut down? 9 months salary? more?

Pretty sure CX will be asking for 6 months of that back if they're forced to rehire, and then invite them to join HK express with their airbus rating on COS21! That'll quieten those angry voices outside immigration pretty quickly.....

[bacou]

CX is not going to be forced to rehire KA crews, however they will need pilots to fly their aircraft when borders open.

If Cathay can't hire outside of HKG and keep on losing the Visa workers who else can they hire other than PR pilots looking for a job in HKG?

Don't be mean with HKE, it's the future of CX, wait to see some of your longhaul moving across, with a bit of luck you'll go there as well unless they choose to make you redundant.

[GTC58]

CX needing pilots? Have you had a look at the seniority list? CX presently has around 3145 pilots on that list. I doubt CX will go back to a pre Covid flight schedule within the next 5 years. For 2021 the first 6 months flight schedule forecast is less then 25% and less then 50% flight schedule for the remainder of the year, maybe 50% of those pilots on the seniority list are needed. Considering the recent mutation of the Covid virus and increased travel restrictions worldwide, the above forecast might be optimistic.

Next decision by CX management, affecting pilots, will be the result of the basings review in March 2021. Now that will be interesting.

[Oasis]

You mean the cheapest pilots on the payroll?

if anything I wouldn’t be surprised if the bases are going to grow, to fix the visa issue so many are facing in HKG.

[lucille]

What you forget is based pilots, as “cheap” as they may be, do nothing for the HK economy. Unlike resident pilots who spend lots of money in HK, creating employment, business and opportunity via the multiplier effect of every dollar being re-spent countless times in country.

Pressure will be brought to bear on CX to minimize bases in order to keep that money recirculating in country. You can be sure that in these difficult times every dollar matters for the HK government and directly or indirectly they can influence outcomes.

[cabbages]

Spot on Lucille.....(except for the fact that based pilots pay full HK tax)

[Aero Vodochody]

No we don’t!

[LLLQNH]

Oasis

To the indifferent & uninformed observer It would appear as if management are keeping the base pilots as a 'reserve group' of pilots should there prediction for a recovery come true in the late stages of 2021, the majority of the bases are now on 6 month salary reduction schemes so cost the company an incredibly small amount and buy management time to decide if CX needs 3000 pilots or only 2500! If the answer is the later, then the HK government not issuing work visas nor renewing them takes care of that for cx.

[Sam Ting Wong]

HK based pilots are on 6 months salary reduction "deals" as well.

[Samsonite]

lucille

I guess you dont realize that most based pilots pay full HK tax just as you do and a very high number hold PR.