Displaced Local Crew

[EddyTemple]

It is the duty of the the immigration department to protect and support the local workforce, as stated in every single Hong Kong immigration document.

The Hong Kong aviation industry is over crewed by employees on general employment contracts. The 990B employment forms were quickly processed by the HK Immigration Department due to the lack of locally qualified pilots and rapid expansion of local carriers.

THIS IS NO LONGER THE CASE WITH A HUGE POOL OF LOCALLY QUALIFIED PILOTS & CABIN CREW

For company HR managers there are severe penalties for making false declarations on the 990B form, including jail. When you are applying or renewing employee work permits under the 990B form, what will be your justifications for NOT employing a qualified Hong Kong passport holder or permanent resident?

For every work permit extension or application submitted you will be risking imprisonment and you WILL be reported.

Hong Kong Passport Holders and Permanent Residents keep voicing your concerns to the South China Morning Post and keep making your voice heard to the immigration department hotlines and reporting services.

Best of luck.

[Rie]

As in the past all they will do is offer an interview and deem them to not be a suitable candidate. Repeat that a few dozen times over and you are back on track.

[EddyTemple]

Well considering that HKA flight ops are mainly on work permits, I think its best to throw them under the bus first and hire some reputable people that value the local workforce and respect the laws.

[Farman Biplane]

Will you also be challenging the visa renewals that happen every two years?

[EddyTemple]

Unfortunately yes Farman, if you are on a work permit you are displacing the local workforce due to the downturn. Just like in Singapore the work permits were the first to go. Having a guess I would say the remaining aviation companies have more than 50% of their aircrew on work permits, blocking the local workforce for re-employment into their chosen profession.

It's going to be hard to justify those kind of numbers to the immigration department with the locally qualified manpower now available.

[LLLQNH]

This was discussed at an Ops meeting previously. The advice received was if you have the exact skills and qualifications available locally then you shouldn't be issuing work permits! Simply having an unemployed pilot in the local workforce wasn't a significant enough reason to not issue work permits or renew them. Type ratings, training and experience with the airline of employment also was apparently a factor. I wish you the best of luck, and sincerely feel terrible about what has happened to the Dragon community!

[SW1]

990B relates to brand new working visa applications, which nobody will be applying for in the next couple of years. I can also assure you the majority of HKA pilots(those left) are permanent residents.

Likewise anyone that joined Dragon Air less than 7 years ago is also on a renewable work visa. Same as HKE.

If Cathay were really worried about breaking immigration law, then by your logic they should have sacked all HKE crew and replaced them with qualified Dragon guys- why didnt they?

These pilots that you wish to throw under the bus have a contract with their employer- for them to replaced by someone similarly qualified to themselves would involve statutory payouts as per the HK employment ordinance. Might get quite expensive for the new employer.

My deepest sympathy goes out to the affected Dragon guys and girls- absolutely **** what happened to them..

Eddy keep chasing those ambulances....

[icemankk2001]

good try Eddy. try harder next time.

[Dragon Pacific]

Quote: If Cathay were really worried about breaking immigration law, then by your logic they should have sacked all HKE crew and replaced them with qualified Dragon guys- why didnt they?

Who says that they’re not going to? It is the next logical step. The KA 320 guys and gals have exactly the skill set required for HKE. This situation has never arisen in Hong Kong aviation before. Watch this space, there is plenty more to come.

[Sue Ridgepipe]

The KA 320 guys and gals have exactly the skill set required for HKE.
So do the HKE guys and gals.

[EddyTemple]

Your company is living in fairyland, applying for work visa extensions just because someone has experience within an airline. Until they are granted PR status or obtain a Hong Kong passport they are just contract workers on a two year rolling basis.

Most immigration departments take the necessary steps to protect their industries and now is the time for Hong Kong to protect the local workforce and follow the policy and procedures presented in their documentation.

To quote a few government documents online ;

"Promoting the employment of local workers and protecting the rights and benefits of employees top the agenda for the Government."

"The Hong Kong government strongly advocates that employers must give first preference to the local workforce for filling job vacancies."

"long-established Government policy that priority in employment should be given to the local workforce and importation of foreign workers should only be allowed when there is proven manpower shortage in specific trades that cannot be filled by local workers."

"While giving employment priority to local workers, we will stay vigilant and explore with stakeholders the pros and cons of increasing imported labour on an appropriate and limited scale to support our development as a high value-added and diversified economy."

The immigration department and Legco will continue to be lobbied until there is a much higher percentage of locally qualified crew re-employed in Hong Kong.

Best of luck.

[LLLQNH]

a lot of those statements use the word Vacancies, priority in employing & hiring. All of that isn't the case when your extending the visa of an employee who already has a job! You needn't worry Cathay will not be recruiting new hires for a very very very long time! When new hire recruitment eventually happens again by my guess 5 years from now they already have a pool of local cadets who have finished in Adelaide to give Second Officer courses!

[EddyTemple]

Call it ambiguous interpret how you want. This is the exact reason why LEGCO & the immigration department are being lobbied, to put the priority back to locals first.

Who do you think the government are going to listen to? a few hundred local citizens asking for genuine help? or some corrupt washed up flight ops guys from the Philippines & Malaysia trying to feather their nest and BS their way through aviation like they always have.

Best of luck.

[mngmt mole]

Eddy. Any pilot already employed in HK will have their visa renewed. You should settle down a bit as you are coming across as a bit of a knob.

[Oddball77]

Eddy,

Seeing that the HK Govt. lent CX a substantial amount of money, do you think they were not aware of the impending closure of KA?

[Lun-Yeung]

HKE pilots are on 3 year contracts. Once their three years is up, their contracts will not be renewed, and KA Pilots will be offered the contract if they pass the selection process.

[LLLQNH]

I think that the normal "rules" don't apply in the eyes of immigration anyway when it comes to aviation in Hong Kong! Cathay, HKE, HKA & Dragon when they were around could and still can do whatever they like! These companies generate so many jobs locally that immigration and the Government give them carte Blanche! Just look at how uninterested the government have been with our (the aircrew and cabin crew bodies) grievances against Cathay surrounding the events of the last few weeks!

Remember it was only 10-12 years ago that Cathay Flight Crew Recruitment started to hire 'international' cadets! Yes people with zero flying experience from overseas, not HKID card holders nor Hong Kong citizens and send them to Adelaide for an all expenses paid training course from a nobody to a fully licensed pilot! Despite there being lots of university graduates and local unemployed talent available in Hong Kong and whom applied for and were interested in becoming Cathay pilots!

There you have it president set! Cathay and all of the airline companies in Hong Kong are a law unto themselves!

[cabbages]

Steady on Eddy.......icemankk2001 is from Malaysia and he's your biggest fan

[UnaMas]

EddyTemple

Is this the same LEGCO that you people stormed and vandalised? And now you want their help?

Haha, nice one

[WeelardPassord]

Eddy I see where your coming from. Do you not think cathay has thought this through before doing what they did? A “few hundred pilots” is an insignificant number as there is new airline opening up and there will be natural retirements and resignations in the coming months to years. They will not hire from outside for a while as priority will go to the recent redundant pilots. HKE and the rest will look into Local pilots and they will be offered interviews/employment.If I were you just enjoy the time off. Yes if you get back into it will be cos 18 and yes you will be bottom of seniority . In 2 years time when the transition agreement is over. There will be an exodus of pilots. Terms and conditions will be increased to try to maintain pilots.
EddyI wouldn’t worry too much. Too many locals think short term. You got a payout and it has only been 2 weeks. And the “locals” is alrdy trying to throw the “expats” under the bus. This really shows your mentality and selfishness.
you probably will not have the qualifications and knowledge you have today if it wasn’t for your “expat” colleagues. So should respect them as they have respected you. Instead of just trying to memorise VOL 8

[Sam Ting Wong]

In 2 years time when the transition agreement is over. There will be an exodus of pilots. Terms and conditions will be increased to try to maintain pilots.

Good luck with that

[bacou]

I am with you on this Eddy and I'd be curious to know who is doing the lobbying for us.

I raised the issue with the president and 1 Comitee member of our union but I could see no interest in going for a fight or using our lawyers for anything alse than explaining the termination documents we received.

Hope you can get a voice with Legco, news outlets and force every of our PR pilot back in the flight deck. What worries me though is that HKG government new CX plans and they did nothing to stop it.

[bacou]

WeelardPassord

You might be talking to one of our local pilot who's been in Dragon more than 20 years: He would teach you how to fly,

When sacked we were told leave your details and we might call you for interview: no promise of rehiring or anything else as you suggest.

Locals are not throwing expats under the bus: CX pushed KA under the bus and now KA PR pilots challenge the legality of using contract pilots in Hong Kong.

[EddyTemple]

Bacou, my gripe started last year when the sewer rats from HKA started laying off PR pilots while retaining the @#$! mafia on work permits. Now the KA pilots have suffered a similar plight while being displaced by these same sewer rats in both HKA and Express.

If you are a PR or Passport Holder now is time to get in touch with LEGCO member and former airline pilot Jeremy Tam, you can find his details online.

[SW1]

"brown mafia" wow a racist as well.
You do know those sewer rats as you put it joined in 2010-2012 so all hold PR. so what's the plan? fire them all to create jobs for the dragon guys?

HKA is hanging by a thread and still not renewing guys coming up to their 3 year renewals. Dragons demise is nothing to do with HKA.

Keep banging your drum!

[deja vu]

How Hong Kong is this thread.? me me me. Use anything and everything to get some advantage over ones colleagues, lest of all, merit. Better if HK had just remained a barren ****ty rock on the coast of China.

[icemankk2001]

Steady on Eddy.......icemankk2001 is from Malaysia and he's your biggest fan
good try.... try again next time.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Funny thing is that not a small number of western pilots are usually quite anti-migration, passionately support brexit and nationalism etc.

Maybe a time to contemplate.

[controlledrest]

One little problem with ditching all the expats - there aren't enough locals to safely fly the aeroplanes, even with the reduced flights. Not the locals fault, just the way it is. I actually wish the locals luck, as it would piss me off to see a round eye turn up and keep a job when a local is fired, but until there is a way for locals to gain meaningful experience expats will be required.

[Ecam321]

Eddy

wind your neck in, “Brown mafia”, “sewer rats”, you sound like a bitter and twisted angry racist.

With that attitude you wouldn’t have a snowflakes chance in hell in passing selection at either HKA or HKE.

Good luck

[SW1]

I think Eddy sees the aforementioned demographic as an easy target to be thrown to the trash pile. As if immigration are going to come steaming in to get rid of the Phillipines, Indonesians and Malaysians, irrespective of the fact that they hold PR, have mortgages and families here as well.
The DFO, you know approved by the CAD , is Malaysian by the way and a PR.

Eddy all your previous 15 or so posts stink of a lawyer looking for your next quick buck at the expense of others misfortune. My comment to keep chasing those ambulances remains valid.

[EddyTemple]

You're right Ecam321 edited for being a bit harsh, but sewer rats YES there have been plenty over the years in HKA feathering their own nests treating everyone like $h!t.

Controlledrest there are a few hundred expat KA guys and ex HKA guys with permanent residence status who are qualified and meet the local workforce criteria.

SW1 any PR holder regardless of their demographic has the right of abode and unrestricted employment that is what this thread is about and they deserve to be here. Red white green brown from Mars if you're on a work permit you are displacing unemployed locally qualified crew.

Best of luck.

[SW1]

And once again. The ones that were let go at HKA with PR status were let go for a reason. Some had personnel file issues. To be honest the longer you've been in a company the more probability you've taken the piss with sick leave, missed duty, unavailable during standby. Then there's the negligence cases: If you're going to have a Vr of 194 knots instead of 149 and only realize at 180 knots on the runway, then you don't deserve a seat up front regardless of immigration status!

keep fighting the good fight

[controlledrest]

,
Controlledrest there are a few hundred expat KA guys and ex HKA guys with permanent residence status who are qualified and meet the local workforce criteria.


Your point? I said that if you get rid of the expat pilots there aren't enough good local pilots to safely operate the schedule. The few hundred you mention aren't enough. CX still needs expat aircrew (even though they now pretend we are all locals). If you want to start stacking airframes (Lion Air etc) then get rid of the skilled expats. Current path will result in needless deaths, no need to accelerate it.

[deja vu]

Funny thing is that not a small number of western pilots are usually quite anti-migration, passionately support brexit and nationalism etc.

Maybe a time to contemplate.

Anti immigration?, WTF, point out one western pilot who is migrating to HK. LOL

[carolknows]

South africans?

[deja vu]

Really, well they are a bit different I guess. Is it successfully happening though? And would fast Eddy accept them as equals?

[Sam Ting Wong]

White people like to call themselves expats, but they are still migrants, like it or not.

Ironically, a many "expats" are quite often strongly opposed to migration of labor ( e.g. Brexit) to their own country.

[deja vu]

migrate-"to permanently relocate", look it up, some basic education required.
Yeah, normally in the past "white people" have temporarily relocated to isolated barren s$^tholes, built something worthwhile there, created refuge and opportunities to the natives, even teach them to manipulate computer controlled machines and the way of the world, then bugger off happily. They have never been shown any gratitude by said local inhabitants but are content to take their pot of Gold and never look back, worked for me.

[LLLQNH]

EddyTemple

How many of these have P1 type ratings on 777/747/A350 and hours on type? None! These are the arguments that would be made in response.

The idea that you should remove employees many whom are highly qualified in their roles and been there for many years to make way for someone else just because they happen to be a local is ludicrous. Whilst I fully support your conviction that new hires should wherever possible assuming the correct qualifications come from the local populace not just here in Hong Kong but in every sovereign nation, I just find your notion of kicking out current employees ludicrous and overtly racist!

[Sam Ting Wong]

deja vu

Maybe let me give you some basic education:

migrate = temporary
immigrate = permanent

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/migrate

We are all migrants. And now maybe not so needed anymore. As I said, maybe a time for contemplation on the hardships of migrants and the merits of nationalism. But reading your comments I expect you are not open for that kind of reflection just yet.

[AllWobbly]

LLLQNH


Oh and how about the 500 people with 330/320 ratings of which 1/2 are locals, many of whom are captains or training captains?

[LLLQNH]

And what exactly does that have to do with the price of tea in China? In the original comments the OP condoned kicking out SOs and JFOs who aren't yet PR from their jobs in Cathay to make way for PR holders from KA! As of yet Cathay doesn't operate 320s. It's just silly to suggest existing cathay employees should make way for redundant PR holders in Hong Kong from other airlines! Imagine the message that this would send, Hong Kong would see a mass exodus of jobs as corporations move to places such as Singapore out of fear they would have to sack their experienced employees and hire PR holders every time someone in their respective industry was unemployed!

[Oddball77]

AllWobbly

What about them?

[deja vu]

Sam Ting Wong

Nice try but no second prizes in the adult world.

The one thing you and your treacherous mates forget is that market forces will probably decide who gets to stay or go, despite your desperate attempts to climb over anyone and everyone.

Blind Freddy can see why CX and the late KA were so popular in HKG and it was what differentiated them from just another mainland carrier. Lets see, was it those awful migrants?

[AllWobbly]

Its all about training. One that basis you condem the incumbents for not doing a decent job then from start to finish.

[deja vu]

Not at all, not casting aspersions on anyone or standards. What I'm saying is its all about perception and how the paying customer sees it.

[SaulGoodman]

Customers don’t give a :mad:

[lucille]

To be more precise, they don’t give two hoots about who is sitting up front picking their noses and punching buttons.
What they do care about is the quality of cabin service, for the most part, little of which is delivered by “migrants”.

[controlledrest]

Some of my local (Chinese) friends have told me they fly CX because of who's up front. They told me they want to be flown by westerners. Small sample of the population, I know. In general the majority will follow the cheapest ticket, but if CX where smart they would chase the premium market with a premium product. In normal times there are plenty of pax to be had, but our mis-managers chose to cut costs and safety in a race to the bottom. CX managers are after numbers not margins.

[controlledrest]

If you are a PR or Passport Holder now is time to get in touch with LEGCO member and former airline pilot Jeremy Tam, you can find his details online.

Good luck with that.

LEGGO is controlled by business owners and the Red Scum to the north. They aren't going to help the worker. We are just a commodity to them. The board has spent months with advisers, lawyers and the government working on the game plan. They don't give a :mad: about you, fairness, your contract or your rights.

[mngmt mole]

I joined CX in 1988. Shortly thereafter they implemented the SO cadet program. Over 32 years, I have had the pleasure to fly with some of the best local pilots HK could have ever asked for. The difference from then to now is this: Back in 1988, CX hired the very best candidates. They genuinely wished to be involved in aviation, and CX. The early SO cadre have proven to be amongst the best pilots in CX. I would happily fly my family with nearly all of them as the Captain. However, over the past 15 years or so, the standards have dropped. Although many of the local pilots trained and hired in that period are very good, there is certainly evidence that a portion of them should never be let near an aircraft (and to be fair...quite a few of the expats fall in that category as well). The simple fact is that the company has dumbed down their standards year on year. That is the simple fact of the matter. My main point is that the early local pilots are deserving of our respect and courtesy. They have earned their place.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Mngmt, you are claiming there is "evidence" for your allegation that lately the quality of cadets has decreased.

Where?

[mngmt mole]

It's an opinion STW. The evidence is my experience as a C and T over the years. You are of course welcome to refute. You might want to take note that I mentioned that there were questionable expats in the mix as well.

[deja vu]

Customers don’t give a :mad:

I presume you have discussed this with the marketing people, yeah!. CX and KA for years have exploited the gweilo angle in every advertisement featuring cockpit crew at every opportunity. Might be a nice shot of a happy cohesive team but the boss guy with all the stripes will be grey haired migrant. Why would you think thats what the customer wanted ?

[deja vu]

mngmt mole

Similar experience over at KA, the difference at KA was that there were no SO's, these guys/girls went straight to the RHS of a 320 or 330 with around 300 hours total after line training. I had previously thought my single pilot IFR days were behind me. To give credit were its due, many did very well, others nit so much. Not sure its what the pax signed on for though!

[too.girls.one.cup]

It's already started, friends. This week several pilots from 3 different airlines have had the crew work visa renewal rejected. If you are here on a work visa, prepare to lose your job on your next work visa renewal. Locals can now claim what is rightfully theirs. A job in their home country. Don't complain about it. It's the same back in your home country. The local workforce has priority over foreign visa holders. There is no denying that there is "local talent" available to perform the task. Work visa holders = taking Hong Kongers jobs. Don't cry about it. It's a fact of life.

[Dragon Pacific]

Good news too.girls!

[SW1]

and then what? you think the local airlines have to pass you because you're a local. immigration doesn't set the bar. stop gloating you sound like a dick.

Hope you're treated the same when you one day decide to get out of here. 2 girls one cup a notoriously disgusting scene. fits you aptly.

and dragon pacific and the rest of you arseholes that relish this. enjoy your 60% paycut till March. 58000 for the next 4 months. or should you be paid full salary as you're local?

do you think the local girls working in HR will love you as they're on reduced salary as well? This isn't the Russian army of 1945. you're not coming in to save anyone.

Youre a new joiner so that might be your COS. food for thought

[fly1981]

That was to be expected. I doubt it will affect many expat cx pilots, they are not on fixed term contracts, your work visa depends on you having a contract to work in hk? So if you are already here, and your contract is in place, I doubt they would cancel your work visa based on the fact their are ‘local’ pilots available. Hke on the other hand as far as I know are on fixed term contracts, which are renewable, they are not obligated to renew those contracts, hka has done that to plenty of pilots recently.
Stupid question. How does PR work for an expat? Is it guaranteed once you hit the 7year mark( I believe that’s the number? ) or is it applied for and left up to the discretion of the immigration department?

[Curry Lamb]

Stupid question. How does PR work for an expat? Is it guaranteed once you hit the 7year mark( I believe that’s the number? ) or is it applied for and left up to the discretion of the immigration department?

It’s applied for and left up to the discretion of the Immigration Department (aka Xi and his thugs up north), so better start deleting all those social media accounts, you’re being monitored.

Welcome to commie Hong Kong, Curry Lamb at your service!

[SW1]

anyone whose been here more than 3 years has a permanent contract(contingent on holding a valid work visa) but its 7 years to achieve PR.

[fly1981]

Ah, ok. So for the expats that are approaching the PR requirement, it could possibly be rejected...not ideal. I still think having a permanent contract you will be ok, fixed term, not so much.

[LLLQNH]

As far as I am aware when you get your PR status your employment doesn't come into it. When I attained my PR a few years ago they weren't interested in my job but guess as my employment visa was valid that was covered, they just wanted proof I had lived in Hong Kong continuously for 7 years, had no outstanding Hong Kong tax liability and had to make a declaration that I had taken Hong Kong as my permanent home!

Interestingly enough you can obtain a permanent Hong Kong work visa not limited to a particular company after 7 years in Hong Kong if you aren't able to make a declaration that you have taken Hong Kong as your permanent home! (Your a commuter or something) only restriction is you must be present in Hong Kong once a year! It's called unconditional stay and you get a new ID card and stamp in your passport similar to PR, just a little more restrictive as PR for a non Chinese National expires if you are gone from Hong Kong for 3 years or more where as Unconditional stay status expires after 1.

[Delayed Flap App]

It's unfortunate for anyone that loses a job and If I was in that boat I would be shattered but let's not forget that if this were any other place i.e USA, UK, Brazil, mainland China, or anywhere, the first to go would be the visa holders. Airlines in Hong Kong cant justify employing overseas pilots with hundreds of unemployed in Hong Kong.

[cabbages]

Not wanting to split hairs here but, you do understand that Hong Kong ,although marginally less xenophobic than the rest, is part of China?

[SW1]

well then the airline that fired them should be accountable. not a local competitor that had nothing to do with it. at the end of the day who cares? these people will fick off with big tax bills if they're fired. good luck tracking them down in sao Paulo.

[LLLQNH]

Sorry but that is just nonsense. In the UK anyway, as much as certain people would probably want to do that it wouldn't happen as it is racist, derogatory, illegal & just plain wrong. BA & Virgin made British citizens redundant and there are many British airline pilots currently unemployed with non British nationals in the cockpit at BA & Virgin, I can guarantee that not a single pilot in those airlines would condone terminating their employment to make way for a native British citizen, it is just ludicrous and offensive! Once you have attained the right to land your in, doesn't matter your creed, colour, religion or background. If you have a work permit then you are legal and as far as I am concerned welcome.

I have found the racial undertones of this thread quite revealing but then after more than a decade in Hong Kong I am not surprised in the slightest.

[SW1]

hk world city my arse

[vegan.snowflake]

I believe the intent of the Immigration law is not to employ NEW hires from overseas if there is a suitably qualified local workforce. This would be the same as most countries as discussed previously.

Then there are the visa renewals. A company must declare something like "I am requesting this visa to be renewed because there are no qualified pilots locally"

By declaring this in this current environment would be fraudulent and that person and company could find themself in a world of hurt if this was proven otherwise.

[EddyTemple]

This is one of those "told you so" moments. The Hong Kong immigration department is doing exactly what is should do, protecting and promoting local employment. This would be exactly the same in your home country, it's a shock to the system because we have been living in an ever expanding aviation bubble. Hong Kong will no longer be the place where work permits are handed out like cheap crew meals on a busy flight.

Best of luck.

[SW1]

well then Eddy. hong kong will be seeing an unprecedented fly by night departures from guys(and their families ) whose jobs have just been stolen from them to make way for your boys. immigration don't stop you to ask if you've paid youre tax before you leave. There you go "I've told you so" I'm counting 300 guys in the next 2 months.

These guys can't legally exceed their stay so will be gone. like guys djd in the arab states. no extradition treaties thanks to Carrie.I'm sure you'll be lobbying jeremy tam when they're gone. mpf for less than 5 years is nothing
s

Its tax month in January...oh wait

[EddyTemple]

SW1, you must be on a work visa with those under tones. If you had been here long enough to understand the system correctly you would know that after year one of employment provisional tax is paid in advance for the following year to prevent that above from happening. Your final pay notice goes to the IRD and they will with hold taxes owing and pay the difference from your provisional payment.

Best of luck

[SW1]

**** off eddy. been here long enough and paid enough tax to know. your contract invalidates so they don't have to pay you anything you're talking about year 1. yes you get charged double. what about year 5?

how long have you been here? just quoting crap from the immigration website. inland revenue. youre a lawyer.

And we pay the tax ********. not the company. if jobs are stolen-hk will just be a bad dream for people. who the hell will gladly stay here on an expired visa with no possibility of work. we all came here for the job. remove that and its nothing

[fatbus]

LLLQNH

just curious ,do BA and Virgin hire EU nationals and do EU airlines hire U.K. Nationals?

ps nothing meant by this !

[MENELAUS]

Yes to both. Language requirements (Dutch / French etc ) an obvious requirement in certain cases. However they have done so for years. And up until recently UK citizens were EU nationals.

[fly1981]

well then the airline that fired them should be accountable. not a local competitor that had nothing to do with it. at the end of the day who cares? these people will fick off with big tax bills if they're fired. good luck tracking them down in sao Paulo.

what local competitor are you referring to?

[SW1]

I'm referring to HKA

[SW1]

robbing peter to pay paul

[Dragon Pacific]

They were hired because HK had a pilot shortage and were eligible for a work visa. There is no longer a pilot shortage so there are no grounds for renewal or issuance of a work visa.
It really isn’t difficult to understand.

[OK4Wire]

On the face of it, you're right, it isn't difficult to understand.

That would severely complicate base closures because, if what you're saying is correct, the large majority of basees will not be able to return to HK. Some have PR, but most do not, especially the 20-year FOs.

[SW1]

So after these guys visas aren't renewed. what next? its a win for the companies as they no longer have to employ you(they can't legally) and pay you.

How much flying are we all really doing, me I haven't been in a real aircraft since January. plenty of guys in the 777 at cathay are the same. HKE flying Taichung.

whilst this covid crisis continues, with all the measures destroying tourism etc. do you see a reason for airlines creating vacancies for the local displaced crew?

They can just say sorry we are not going to create a job for someone, put them through groundschool, sims, lfus etc for them to be sat on their arse for the next few months. Airlines are bleeding cash, they're never going to do the decent thing just to clear the backlog of unemployed pilots. immigration HAS the right to reject visa renewals etc. They DONT have the right to ask airlines to create jobs that don't exist. I sincerely hope all the displaced pilots find work soon, but not at the expense of those who have managed to keep their job.

Will they get that warm fuzzy feeling when there's another 500 pilots out on the street and they still haven't taken their place due lack of justification for employment?

[Farman Biplane]

Sounds like a great mechanism for a Caring Company to reduce their pilot costs in this extended time of reduced flying.

[deja vu]

This thread reminds me of the scurrying rats that would be attacking the abandoned garbage in the lanes and alleyways of TST late at night, but even those rats had standards.
I couldn't imagine flying with these guys sitting there, not saying boo to a goose, but plotting ways to undermine their colleagues continuously. I would imagine if CX thought they could run their airline with just these guys they would, after all they're cheap as chips.

[fatbus]

This thread is a true indication where the profession has sunk to ! Total disgrace . Reference to Rats is perfect .

[Rie]

The form looks a bit cheap but you never know if it is real or not.

https://forms.office.com/Pages/ResponsePage.aspx?id=SeNnGnmsP0iSnzXqswj5YkHA6IuXLZJFsBhgoSA jnzdUQTM0M0VHOUZNMjJYTFBNTEoxWko5Vk9RRy4u

How many displaced locals are 737 rated? Will the argument be that a Local ATPL holder can be trained to another type so no need for a expats? Otherwise Greater Bay will fill up quickly with those who recently lost positions worldwide.

[Hugo Peroni the V]

Real.. Prefer Boeing experience.

[SW1]

Theres plenty of guys at HKA with significant 737-800 time with HK ATPL and the type on their licence, came from MAS. Captains and FOs. If these guys are removed to make way for the displaced I'm sure they'll definitely apply. I also know someone from dragon who joined as NTR who also had significant 737 time in Europe.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Every piloy who lost his job in Hong Kong will be able to get it back. The work visa will not be an issue.People will fly again, pilot numbers will be the same as before the crisis.

The more relevant question will be on what terms/rank that job will be.

[SW1]

I dont doubt that but its people like Eddy and his supporters actively lobbying(apparently) to have more people lose their jobs is what disgusts me. Specifically targeting other Hong kong based private companies, who had no help from the government, have no government observers on their board, and were not party to what was going to happen to dragon is just wrong. Then we have trolls claiming its already happening which just puts the ****s into people already worried about their job security.

[bacou]

There is nothing personnal and it's not pilots against pilots.
With one sided contracts removing seniority and managers having no respect for employees the only thing protecting a career these day is the law .
Not for us to debate fairness of the law or what differentiate a migrant worker with a Work Visa (which I was the first 7 years in Hong Kong) to a Permanent Resident.

Let's say Swire decides that HKE will do longhaul
transfers 20 350s to Express and sacks 200 pilots at CX.while in the same time HKE recruits to operate these 350s
As a CX redundant PR pilots, what would you do? The only angle you can use to challenge the redundancy is your priority for employment to Visa Workers.

2nd exemple, comes June 2021, Borders still closed anther 20% of pilots to be let go at CX on a contract that doesn't recognise seniority.
Don't you think that PR made redundant will challenge their redundancy if CX keeps Visa workers and why would it not be fair as they joined earlier the airline.

[Zymian]

In our profession, those who underperform or have disciplinary issues will always be the first to be made redundant when hard times come.

Puzzling . Are some people saying that PR and locals should be retained at all costs regardless of competency and performance ? On the basis of employment law no less?

it’s a flawed argument. And obviously there’s a dishonest agenda behind it.

[SW1]

There is nothing personnal and it's not pilots against pilots.
With one sided contracts removing seniority and managers having no respect for employees the only thing protecting a career these day is the law .
Not for us to debate fairness of the law or what differentiate a migrant worker with a Work Visa (which I was the first 7 years in Hong Kong) to a Permanent Resident.

Let's say Swire decides that HKE will do longhaul
transfers 20 350s to Express and sacks 200 pilots at CX.while in the same time HKE recruits to operate these 350s


If there was external recruitment resulting in hiring someone outside the country and applying for an initial work visa when you had type rated 350 pilots already in house I would agree. what are you going to do in your hypothetical scenario if those HKE pilots are also PR. Will you claim you've been here longer? your passports better than theres?

I dont agree with using these tactics( even though it might be within the confines of the law) to use your privilege to take someone's else's job from another airline.

I'm sorry but your grievance lies with the swire group. nobody else screwed you over other than them with the government looking on.

For visa renewals nowhere does it state you have to make a sworn affidavit that there is no local talent to perform the job. For an initial yes there is but not for subsequent renewal. They just want to know your salary and time in the company and your position. Please feel free to check. Nobody's making false statements to anyone.

I feel you're trying change the law to suit your current predicament.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/980x2000/screenshot_20201114_165152_drive_2c8024f43dbd5c7ec05df3a296d b3cf757c61cee.jpg

[Sam Ting Wong]

Sounds right. All you need for renewal of an existing visa is a confirmation of employment from your company.

[bacou]

What would the dishonest agenda.be?

pilots loose their jobs for underperforming on sim checks, line training or line checks, redundancy for financial reasons is a different story.
If you claim that the airline can pick who they want then you might get lucky or not, you'll see on the next round.
However I am pretty sure that no more locals will be going this time, publicity is not good.

I don't think there is any tactics being used and I reckon that LEGCO has way more important matters at hands these days than 400 PR redundant pilots and couple thousand of local CC who lost their jobs.
Just a fact, HKE and CX were still hiring 6 months ago when it was already obvious that something was wrong.
I have nothing against pilots who joined, they didn't steal my job but swire moved my job to a subsidiary company using these pilots and that's the way it is.
To me this is really unfair but it's the way it is and whatever we're writing here won't change a thing.

[Ecam321]

Nice one SW1, for digging out that form and establishing the facts.

A lot of the posts in this thread have been designed to scare people, purely out of spite and bitterness for the predicament they unfortunately find themselves in.

I also have spoken to a relevant HR department and they told me no issues regarding renewal of a work permit, however initial work permit requests are not expected to be applied for, at least for a couple of years.

[fly1981]

The same hr department that announced no more redundancies on Monday,however, half of fop disappeared on Thursday? A word of wise to the new kid on the block, don’t trust a word they say.

[Zymian]

[QUOTE=bacou;10926179]What would the dishonest agenda.be?

pilots loose their jobs for underperforming on sim checks, line training or line checks, redundancy for financial reasons is a different story.
If you claim that the airline can pick who they want then you might get lucky or not, you'll see on the next round.
However I am pretty sure that no more locals will be going this time, publicity is not good.

I don't think there is any tactics being used and I reckon that LEGCO has way more important matters at hands these days than 400 PR redundant pilots and couple thousand of local CC who lost their jobs.
Just a fact, HKE and CX were still hiring 6 months ago when it was already obvious that something was wrong.



I have nothing against pilots who joined, they didn't steal my job but swire moved my job to a subsidiary company using these pilots and that's the way it is..[/QUOTE


Watching people like you going on and on with this sense of entitlement is amusing,

Dishonest because it’s a narrative based on your interpretation / assumption of how the policy on work permits will be implemented.
A narrative that remains unproven.

You can go on believing it if you want. I’m pretty sure if and when the next round of redundancies occur, it will be across the board. Expats and locals.

[SW1]

Just a fact, HKE and CX were still hiring 6 months ago when it was already obvious that something was wrong.
I have nothing against pilots who joined, /QUOTE]

which once again take up with your employer,the swire group ,that was under government oversight from June this year. As if it was a last minute rescue and they hadnt been talking about this in secret from March onwards. I hate to say it but Hong Kong has changed significantly in the past year.

[Rie]

SW1, HK is a shell of the place that I came to in the 00's. Promises were left behind with the morals a long time ago.

The HKE hiring that happened last year was inconceivable. You had people from EK and other full service carries jumping ship before the inevitable firings to go into a LCC yet HKE didn't have a single plane in the sky.

The grand plan will reveal itself next year I guess.

[SW1]

The same hr department that announced no more redundancies on Monday,however, half of fop disappeared on Thursday? A word of wise to the new kid on the block, don’t trust a word they say.
I'm sorry but you are not the only airline in HK. despite Danny only reporting on you when times are good. Or making sure its known other airlines are really doing bad. Loved his great news HKE flights to nowhere article(smallprint HKA did it first ) he's got shares in CX by the way. There are other airlines with their own HR departments.

[fly1981]

🤣’you are not the only airline in hk’, who is the ‘you’, you are referring to SW1?

[SW1]

I presume YOU are at CX or affiliates or am I talking with SCMPs own aviation expert?I am honored sir. I put you around 38 years old

[fly1981]

If you refer to the post I was commenting on, exam321 is at hke...( from what I gather) hke is now cx owned. Which means the hr department that ULTIMATELY controls hke is cx...cx announced on Monday there would be no further redundancies, but yet Thursday half of FOP disappeared...?
no no, the honor is all mine, clearly, you must be a genius!

[SW1]

and I'm at HKA. you want to tell me what they did on monday? oh no. nothing. There are other HR departments. outside of your bubble. the fact you asked before what local competition there was speaks dividends

[fly1981]

Good on you mate, it’s a place I would much rather be. Nobody really cares what hka did on Monday. In hk, there is cx, there was ka, and now there is hke. Hka is but a small drop in the ocean amongst the swire built empire. If you think hka is competition to this empire, you dreaming.

[EddyTemple]

I find your assumptions on the id91 form comical. Just because you were issued a work visa under the 990B, doesn't automatically give you endless extensions because you filed the id91 request. The id 91 requires immigration approval if it didn't need approval then why create the form. Considering the current circumstances these extensions should be and will be denied to protect the local market.

[SW1]

all hail. you didn't even ascertain which HR ECAM321 was referring too. as the swire reich owns everyone in your mind MATE.

[fly1981]

swire owns everyone in hk that matters😉besides greater bay, which could pose a risk in the future. However, this is irrelevant in terms of the topic being discussed. Back to the topic...

[SW1]

Eddy prove it. Youre all talk at the moment. at least back your claims up with immigration or labor ordinance.You know 600 unemployed pilots can still come at you with lawyers etc quoting unfair dismissal. Or is it just thats life sorry kids just dissappear.it works both ways. You want a fight, you will have it.

You think HK wants multiple bankruptcies as guys have been terminated immediately, can't pay tax etc. had loans, mortgages. you'll get your fee im sure. if not back to injury lawyers for you or whatever hole you crawled out of

[SW1]

fly1981

yeah back peddle genius

[EddyTemple]

Because it expires after two years, if you don't renew it you will overstaying and risk the associated penalties. 2 years / 2 years / 3 years then PR.

[SW1]

which means you have to submit an ID91 form. that ultimately has to be approved.Do you know how much buracracy and redtape there is in HK? I'm surprised the forms and photocopies are so few.

And its 2,3,3. now. Youre welcome
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/980x2000/screenshot_20201114_230029_chrome_ebc017fff08c4866c03fe3c742 13e110c5ce1c72.jpg

[WeelardPassord]

I’m not sure how you are justifying that just because you have a PR and a HK CaD license makes you entitled to have a pilot job with a Hongkong based airline.

so what you are saying is don’t renew expats visa and hope that the local force can pass the interview process , training , and all the hoops to replace a current online pilot? Does that make any sense to

I understand if they are rehiring for new positions then your argument is justified.


what I’m saying is just because you have a license and PR does not make you qualified to be immediately replacing a work force alrdy in place.

when rehiring happens, which will be sooner than expected. I definitely agree locals PR should have the priority and opportunity to interview before looking outside talents.

[lucille]

In the eyes of the government, will there be a difference between PR and a HK passport holder?

Or will a PR be seen as just another expat, albeit one who’s passed a longevity test?

[Dragon Pacific]

No difference. But for KA pilots being interviewed for Loong Air it is being done in Mandarin which leaves the expats at a bit of a disadvantage. I imagine the same kind of filter will apply here.

[SW1]

so Cantonese speakers only? good luck. Its the airlines equipment at the end of the day. They will Ultimately decide who flies that. They can put ELP level 6 requirements if they want, higher hours, experience in 2 airlines etc. despite what eddy says. Give it a rest.

[fly1981]

This is one of those "told you so" moments. The Hong Kong immigration department is doing exactly what is should do, protecting and promoting local employment. This would be exactly the same in your home country, it's a shock to the system because we have been living in an ever expanding aviation bubble. Hong Kong will no longer be the place where work permits are handed out like cheap crew meals on a busy flight.

Best of luck.

this may be the case, however, experience still needs to be considered. Whether you like it or not, the experience required to run the cx group airlines entirely does not exist in the local population. Yes, there are local pilots available, but very few with extensive experience. Besides, if you are considering the ka local pilots, most were cadets, they have been to Shanghai and Beijing a couple of thousand times, but that’s it. As far as ‘experience’ goes, they are very inexperienced in terms of the overall cx network. Throw them into anchorage/New York/Chicago on a rough winters evening and you will realize just what experience they have. I am not undermining their ability, but one has to be realistic. This is by no means the end of expats at cx, don’t get too excited, there are only 200-300 local pilots looking for work, they will be absorbed quick enough.

[Hugo Peroni the V]

so superhero, how many times have you had rough winter evenings? Seriously. The number of rough approaches I’ve had with CX in 20 years (admittedly I don’t get as phased as the antipodeans) can be counted on one hand. The worst approaches I have witnessed were from the RHS to the expat arrogant skippers who would not make the grade today.

[fatbus]

Spot on Hugo , same here! Some pilots love to claim WB flying is so difficult compared to NB .

[AllWobbly]

fly1981

Lets not start a pxxsing contest-they went to 26 destinations in the PRC alone not to mention Kathmandu and Busan at night (and circled where cx didn’t).
Google KA destinations......,,

[fly1981]

My apologies ladies and gents, that did not come across the way I intended. I am fully aware of where KA flew. My point was, all the local displaced pilots will be hired, cx needs them for the future. I don’t think there is going to be a need to restrict the issue of work visas, maybe in the immediate short term, but that won’t last long. It sounds like many have managed to get into some of the mainland airlines that offer very lucrative contract.

[Dragon Pacific]

Surely 1981 you need the KA pilots to fly the 321neo that arrived in HKG from Hamburg yesterday. A night Calcutta in the monsoon would be beneath you so you can’t do that. You are a bunk and sandwich expert after all.

[fly1981]

That would be the most sensible option for cx, the displaced crew from ka on the 320 are type rated and familiar with the routes, it would be stupid not to snap them up.

[Rie]

Had a HKE Captain share details of their new COS21. I sounds like you won't get any locals willing to work there even if they are displaced.

Captains now to be paid less than a COS18 FO. The FO's now on a wage similar to an English teacher. Unpaid leave on top of that. Singles might be able to make it work. Anyone with a pet will be carving it up for dinner as they won't be able to afford it anymore. Kids in school? Send them up to China to join the labour force.

Truely is the race to the bottom.

[Dragon Pacific]

You’re right, you can keep the job. Particularly the bond of US$35k for command upgrade etc.

[bacou]

AdB29

You're wrong, the only people who eventualy will want this job are the locals.
As an expat you would be very stupid to leave your country for a bad contract like this one.
Next time easyjet recruits all the Europeans will be out of HKG.

[Rie]

Last time Easy, Ryan, Jet2, Vueling recruited there were people leaving already. Gets to a point where no/minimal education allowance means the children take priority and the families pack up and go home.

[Ecam321]

I find your assumptions on the id91 form comical. Just because you were issued a work visa under the 990B, doesn't automatically give you endless extensions because you filed the id91 request. The id 91 requires immigration approval if it didn't need approval then why create the form. Considering the current circumstances these extensions should be and will be denied to protect the local market.

Well Eddy, my friend, it has been confirmed today, that all you have been preaching is utter bollocks.
There is no threat what so ever from immigration regarding renewal of work permits for pilots on 3 year contracts.
The question is, do you really want the contract that would be offered to you, if you were successful in kicking out those pesky expats ?

[Hotoffthepress]

FCN 'Secondment to Air Hong Kong' - Positions available for the increased cargo demand, interesante!

Unfortunately, this means my application for DEFO with Air Hong Kong has been thrown into the bin :ok: I thought AHK would at least take a peek at some us redundant KA crew.

On a positive note, I hope it's a good opportunity for the ones that take it!

[GMEDX]

You’d be daft not to apply. It will be the only way to earn more than minimum money on CoS 18 next year. It will be interesting to see how many are on Team tomorrow.

[doolay]

How will they choose who goes over? Seniority? Oh wait...

[rhoshamboe]

Likely to be doing 45 hours they say. On the Airbus cos 18 scale thats min guarantee only.

[OK4Wire]

So you are going to get paid the same as somebody who is sitting at home, doing no flying at all?

[bacou]

And stealing the job of 20 pilots AHK would have had to hire if CX was not doing secondment .

[fly1981]

my sentiments exactly.

[LLLQNH]

another way to look at it is your gonna get paid whilst a guy sitting at home unemployed not getting paid does nothing! Guys please wake up, the cuts to pilot numbers aren't complete! Management probably believe their own propaganda or want too, but look at the company and what's happening it is not sustainable we have too many pilots and not enough flying! Just prepare yourselves the best you can and look after your families, there is no seniority protection so please everyone prepare themselves! The best advice I have ever been given in aviation is always keep your bags packed and resume updated!

[Jetdream]

Under COS18 I thought CX can basically send you anywhere within the group. So if they don’t get any volunteers they’d probably ‘send’ 20 over anyway.
I’m not condoning any of this by the way. Would much rather see 20 unemployed pilots getting a pay packet again.

[Oasis]

Why stop there? Just hire all the unemployed pilots till the cx group runs out out money!

[icemankk2001]

Not only your friends, many others had their visa renewed too. I wonder if this thread matters anymore. Good try Eddy. Try harder next time.

[ZootBoot]

EddyTemple,

I went to the immigration department today, with 2 colleagues, and we all had our work visas extended. I think your information may be incorrect.

[carolknows]

what about that one dutch sheila who keeps showing off her busy cargo work life during this catastrophic times when all the dragon or cathay pilots lost their jobs?

[controlledrest]

The government never gave a crap about locals v expats. It is all about the business owners. This is even more so the case now the rulers in Peking have exerted their full control over HKG. It is about looking after those in power. They don't give a **** about the workers.

[TimeToWhine]

Immigration are now only issuing 3 month visas renewals to all non PR pilots.

[SW1]

Yep to the “displaced local crew” who threw their flying toys that hit somebody. hope it was worth it. YOU won’t have a job, I WONT have a job the,boys at Kai tak aviation won’t have a job. Maybe we can all shake hands once our families are ALL checking in for that final flight out of here. You had my sympathies ,like anybody screwed by this pandemic, but decided to go down this route. Nobody owes you anything- let alone anyone outside of the swire group. :mad:.

[Walkingthedog]

1.Do you think the immigration department were unaware of the number of locals laid off?
2.Do you think the Government and the immigration department were unaware of the ordinance.
3.Who says you’ve lost your job even if the extensions were 3 months has anyone been given notice?
4.It’s highly unlikely that any of the locals will be on a flight leaving Hong Kong they don’t have the right to live and work anywhere else nor the licence.
Presumably wherever you are from won’t be employing them. The argument being “we don’t need to import pilots”. An argument that could well apply in HKG in the near future.
5. One of the reasons for the cadet scheme was to enable the recruitment of expat pilots by demonstrating a commitment to local people.
Arguably some of those people were far more screwed by the pandemic than others.
My point being even if anyone had “thrown their flying toys” you really think it would make a difference or caused the immigration department to take action. Or if they hadn’t done anything the dept would have turned a blind eye?
All of the above presupposes that the rumour is true in the first place and therefore worth debating.

[Hugo Peroni the V]

Males any sympathy for the Chinese destiny they face dry up pretty quick, doesn’t it?

[TheGreenDragon]

All Dragonair cockpit & cabin crew have lost all interline travel , inc One World.
All tickets are now cancelled. Tough luck to you all.
How many times did I hear “ best gig in Asia”
“Don't rock the boat, were too well paid”

Seems few saved for that rainy day. In a way im glad im not signing an agreement to kill my lifestyle like my cx bretheran
, while my bosses run amuck with their repugnant salaries and platitudes, ka pilots may be jumping off the nearest ifc.

Who would have blood on their hand?

[bacou]

I won't miss the arrogance that goes from top to bottom in major airlines.

What kind of space shuttle did you fly before, that to your opinion makes you a much better operator of airliner than anybody else.?

[Oasis]

All Dragonair cockpit & cabin crew have lost all interline travel , inc One World.
All tickets are now cancelled. Tough luck to you all.

How about retirees from before the closure? Did they lose travel benefits too?

[bacou]

They were told that the closure of Cathay Dragon cancels travel agreements with other airlines.
As a favour Cathay will give us retiree travel on CX: Big Thanks !

[Fly747]

[QUOTE=Walkingthedog;10935122]

3.Who says you’ve lost your job even if the extensions were 3 months has anyone been given notice?

I don’t know if anyone has been given only a three month extension but if they were then is is not for the company employing them to give notice. It would be illegal for them to be employed without a work visa, they can’t be employed, so I’d imagine that the company wouldn’t have to give them any kind of severance package even. In the past when people forgot to renew their work visa it was considered the pilot’s own responsibility and they were put on unpaid leave until they got a new visa.

[Rie]

Pretty sure people are coming out with their 3 year extensions maybe you got the month mixed up with year. I know several who have been extended recently from CX and UO.

[TimeToWhine]

3 months is correct. It came into effect just this past week.

[veryoldchinahand]

Eddy Temple looks to have retired hurt.

[Rie]

TimeToWhine

In that case it'll help reduce the numbers across the board if the company calls it a too hard situation. I'd have to go through the seniority list for exact numbers but there are many ladies and gents from the last 5 years who will be in their 2nd/5th year renewal. If they do shed people it would be the SO's and Freighter DEFO's who are actually working relatively hard.

Maybe Carrie Lam can offer up some support from the coffers that is her mattress.

[LLLQNH]

If there was really a problem here immigration and the Hong Kong government would flat out refuse to extend work permits not extend them for only 3 months. Fully expect this to be a complete non issue and the company if there is even an issue at all to sort it out behind the scenes, remember Cathay have been in this situation before when they gave work permits to all those I cadets when they had massive numbers of local graduates and people interested in becoming cadets, part of the reason cx has a cadet programme is so they can continue to bring in foreigners and experience from overseas as a way to be shown to be doing its bit for Hong Kong. Expect the status quo to continue.

[TimeToWhine]

LLLQNH,

I suspect you’re right. I can’t see the remaining airlines in HK being forced to terminate several hundred current expat pilots in order to hire and retrain displaced locals who never even worked for any of those airlines in the first place. There could however be an embargo with new initial visas when there is a new pool of experienced locals available. Regardless, someone has definitely caught the attention of the immigration department.

[controlledrest]

If Immigration Department isn't doing as CX tell them, it makes it harder for CX to close the bases and honour the contract....with recent disregard for honouring the contract, engaging staff and doing the right thing I suspect we can expect the bases to close and those on them to be cut loose.

[Dragon Pacific]

TimeToWhine

The airlines would not be the ones terminating them, they would merely run out of visa and have to leave HK. Then the recently redundant from KA who have PR can claim their rightful position back with the group, the Cathay “family”. Many of the pesky expat B pilots won’t want to come back for CoS21 so it is probably only a couple of hundred pilots at most.

[Rie]

Dragon, how can you use the term "rightful"?

No Dragon pilot has not immediate right to work for Cathay just because they are a pilot. It is a different company (even if in the same group) and as such any individual wishing to apply must prove their own worth through the proper interview process. Just ask any pilot/cabin crew from a LCC with a sister mainline carrier. They would have had to interview to make the move.

As I have said before it is not too hard for a company to declare candidates unsuitable. The cadet process is a clear indicator of this.

[Farman Biplane]

Hilarious that “expats” are fighting to remain in a job/salary that will never allow them to live well in HK or to save enough $$$ to move back home and retire early.
The good days at CX are officially over, take the hint and make your preparations to move on.

[hyg]

If Immigration Department isn't doing as CX tell them, it makes it harder for CX to close the bases and honour the contract....with recent disregard for honouring the contract, engaging staff and doing the right thing I suspect we can expect the bases to close and those on them to be cut loose.

Immigration Dept doing as CX tells them?? what era are u living in?? the CCP now owns CX, it's CX that will do as told, what do you think those 2 'non-voting party nominated secretaries' in the board are for

[Walkingthedog]

Rie

I think he means CX took the KA 320 (as they did the 747) and the routes.

Who in their right mind would want to work for CX anyway. Any notion of contract or career has to be viewed cynically wouldn’t you think?

[LLLQNH]

what do you mean crew overseas with expired visas the company are looking at? People on leave, you can't be talking about based guys because I thought they didn't have nor need visas for Hong Kong?

[Dragon Pacific]

Some crew on leave, SLS or extended UPL have foolishly let their visas lapse. Sounds like they won’t be coming back at all.

[Hugo Peroni the V]

You’re funny Farman. Who do you know who is fighting to stay in Hong Kong? For the next two years, for most (747 excepted) it’s rent paid and free money for no work. These expats for whom you seem to have such contempt will be gone when it suits them as will the long term loyal passenger base when they keep hearing the PAs in barely understandable chinglish.

[Rie]

Dragon Pacific

I would hope not to see a return of those people. Your visa if you require one is your responsibility just like tracking the expiries of your licence. It is not the duty of the company. To leave and not return in time is utterly idiotic.

[pill]

A little empathy fellas. This would have been an easy bear trap to fall into. Can’t wait to share a flight deck with either of you pair.
I’m calling bs on it by the way.

[Walkingthedog]

Dragon Pacific

It might be impossible to get back if you were locked down in Aust.

[Rie]

pill, I and many others kept track of my expiries for my 2 year and then my 3 year before gaining PR. How can you have empathy if you have been through the same thing multiple times and you made sure to have the paperwork sorted in time for renewal.

I understand people have chosen to leave to be with families during this time but its not hard to come back, write a letter to the government (with a flight ticket attached stating why you are needing it rushed) and have your renewal sorted within 3hrs. If Billy boy and his for droogs can get ready for a little of the old in-out then there is no stopping any FO/SO from doing the same with their application. Just make sure no lashings of the old ultra-violence.

[Oasis]

Wow, I am so impressed you never made an administrative lapse, and have a little spreadsheet to warn you at the appropriate time.
You don't know the individual situations these people find themselves in, so better just be quiet about how organized you are yourself and how easy it is to just pop over and out to Hong Kong to get your visa.
There are some countries out there with some very hefty restrictions.

Again, have a little empathy.

[Rie]

There is difference between an administrative lapse vs your working visa for a company in a country you legally cannot reside without holding. I am not perfect at all but I'll be damned if I forget something that will cost me my job.

Would you go to your next sim/line check and forget your licence and expect it was signed off? Maybe you forget about your medical and just hope that it was re-issued? The same goes with an employment visa.

If you take a look at any of the quarantine help groups on Facebook. There are dozens every day day asking if their PR status is going to run out as they are due for the 3 year check in. The answer always comes back the same that there are no allowances made even with COVID affecting access. So these people fly into HK for quarantine, tick the box and fly back home again. Many families I know have taken children out of school and returned home this year to keep their children safe but have always come back when needed for work commitments. One I know has even done this process 3 times with quarantine on each end.

Oasis, which are the countries from which these crew reside that are strict enough right now to not let a non-resident travel?

[Oasis]

Australia case
You come to Hong Kong to renew your visa. So you have to quarantine in HKG for 14 days, 2-3 days to do the visa, then fly back and then quarantine again for 14 days.
Inducing travel this means you have to block off about 33 days out of your schedule for the pleasure of renewing your visa.
You have to admit this can be a challenge for many people.

[Rie]

100% on your side regarding the hardships. It is astonishingly hard for all even those who are trapped inside HK, so many people have not seen family for a very long time. A LCC pilot I know without dental coverage has had to fly to their home just to get a dental work done and accepted the quarantine on both sides. Saved them money at least.

Australian pilots I know have gone home, quarantined and returned. It was based on their non-resident status so they are free to go as they see fit. Based guys on the other hand will have a hard time but nothing a work visa/PR can't solve if it comes to that.

[rustyoldtin]

HK Immigration only does their assessment on whether a local can do the job, and if a foreigner is really needed, only at the initial application for the visa. All subsequent renewals, this is not assessed and the only subsequent checking is you previously abided by the visa rules and the company still sponsoring your visa. A check to see if there is local talent to do your job is NOT performed for visa renewal.

[controlledrest]

Immigration Dept doing as CX tells them?? what era are u living in?? the CCP now owns CX, it's CX that will do as told, what do you think those 2 'non-voting party nominated secretaries' in the board are for


Got point, my mistake. I've been here for too long.

Must have been a bit of a bitch initially for the Swire Smooth Brains to be told what to do, but a relief when their orders matched their own moral compass and complete disregard for the peasants.

[Dragon Pacific]

rustyoldtin

It was always a requirement for renewal that there shouldn’t be local that can do the job as per the original application. It may have been that there previously was no need to rigorously check.

Quote: Such applications will be considered only where it is satisfied that the circumstances upon which the applicant acquired his/her current immigration status remain unchanged.

It would appear that successful lobbying of Immigration and of Jeremy Tam by those pilots recently made redundant means that proper consideration of the local pilot market is now being made for renewal of a work visa.

[Farman Biplane]

The matter now has visibility and will be enduring.

However it might be a double trap for those HK PR's who seek to gain from it as it will only be a matter of time before the other pilot citizens of China decide that they would prefer to live and work in Hong Kong.

Market forces abound

[Progress Wanchai]

rustyoldtin

Perhaps that’s previously how the immigration department processed extensions but it’s becoming evident that the department will now have to comply with its own rules/laws.

General Employment Policy (GEP)
There are 5 eligibility criteria for the initial issue of a 2 year work visa (a) through to (e) including;
“(d) The applicant has a confirmed offer of employment and is employed in a job relevant to his academic qualifications or work experience that cannot be readily taken up by the local workforce.”

Then the extension following the initial 2 years;
“Such applicants will be considered only when the applicant continues to meet the eligibility criteria under the GEP.”

While nothing is ever clear when it comes to bureaucratic rules, on the surface it would seem (d) still applies to the extension just as it did to the initial issue.

So then it comes down to interpretation. How does the department define “readily taken up”?
Can a recently redundant CX airbus SO with PR status readily take up the position of a CX airbus SO applying for an extension? Probably.
Can a recently redundant KA 330 FO with PR status readily take up the position of a an airbus FO. Possibly.
Can a recently redundant 320 FO readily take up the position of a 320 FO considering there are no 320 FO’s currently in the company? Almost definitely.
Can a recently “retired” 55 year old airbus captain readily take up the position of an airbus SO/FO/Capt? Probably.

And there’s dozens more questions that can be asked including what defines the “local workforce”. It could be argued it’s anyone not required to apply for a work visa. It could also be argued its HKSAR passport holders. Who knows? Certainly not pprune posters and with the Immigration Department issuing 3 month visas it’s safe to say they don’t know either.

The legal wheels have commenced turning and I guess we’ll find out soon which side of the fence a judge or the government decides to push the Immigration Department.

[Cpt. Underpants]

what about that one dutch sheila who keeps showing off her busy cargo work

... and showing commercially sensitive cargo manifests to thousands on the Internet. Surely someone in CX "management" should give a crap and tell this attention hound to wind her neck in?

[Dragon Pacific]

Has she done the seven yet?

[carolknows]

Cpt. Underpants

Yes i saw the cargo list too - and why did no one in the mgmt give warning? Can we all upload our pics onto Facebook/IG without being punished then? Whats the company's social media rules to abide by - just curious?

[doolay]

It's the LAME generation. Look At Me Everybody!

[Oasis]

I seem to recall the then DFO was quite taken with her instagram skills and following at the time.

[YellowFever777]

She's a nauseating narcissist.

[Rie]

It's still up there... Seems like there is zero care. A phone call would have taken it down if the company cared. Being the golden child must be nice for some.

Maybe some cherries and shrimp would be nice for Christmas.

[TimeToWhine]

Did no one even see the company promoted article in the FOP news letter this week about princesses BTC colleague from the same fleet doing exactly the same thing on his instagram? Seems the company social media rules don’t apply to everyone.

[Kitsune]

Time to lock the thread methinks...🙄

[cxflog]

Multiple colleagues of mine have had their work visas extended for only 3 months, and as of a few days ago there are some who are being rejected altogether for their renewals. Maybe Eddie was right?

[pfvspnf]

Gweilo is used for female also ?

[G Merch]

Hard to believe that with all what's going, some people seem to get so wound up over somebody on social media.

[JMock]

YellowFever777

are you obviously are unaware of the several bloke instas doing the same thing?

[YellowFever777]

I am aware, they're nauseating narcissists also.

[goingdown]

Work visas are not being renewed. Newsflash from HKAOA.

[Rie]

JMock

The not quite line checked SO stripper got shut down pretty quickly though...

[veritas777]

Re: social media pilots - everyone and the public want to look at people who are interesting and passionate about their lives and are pleasant and happy. No surprise there.

What they don't want is to hear from a bunch of nasty racists who wish everyone else in the world was as miserable as they are. Guess what PPRUNE has a lot of :rolleyes:

[cabbages]

Gweilo is used for female also ?

I believe the derogatory equivalent for western women is 'Gweipo', but as I am a none cantonese speaker, maybe veritas can confirm for us?

[SW1]

Work visas are not being renewed. Newsflash from HKAOA.
not even the 3 month extensions?

[MENELAUS]

Sweet F A.

[Oasis]

How many pilots are on visas these days? They’ll be dismissed?

in this case I think bases look like a pretty good option for cx.

[mngmt mole]

Well, I have it on good authority that management were visiting the Immigration and Labour Departments this week. They were informed in no uncertain terms that they will no longer issue extensions of work visa's while there is a large local supply of pilots (info as of Friday afternoon). I wonder if this is a rather destructive unintended consequence of Cathay sacking all the KA pilots (i'm guessing there were about 200 local pilots involved), or whether this was a very cynical but planned strategy to eliminate another few hundred pilots without any cost to the company, as they can simply point out that employment is based on having the required visa's. Either way, about to get very interesting...

[Kitsune]

Makes you wonder what sort of visa the very average Swire Ponce is on... there’s lots of absolutely excellent local ‘managers’ in search of a job...

[mngmt mole]

Don't question the special terms and conditions your masters enjoy. Pleb :-)

[cabbages]

Oh what a tangled web we weave.....

Maybe those on a Base will now be thrown a lifeline?

[Farman Biplane]

More likely to award bases out of seniority to the affected pilots as a result of this self induced issue.

[Bangaluru]

cabbages

I have no inside information, only instincts which are often wrong. But it seems that we in HK are still very underutilized. If they can unload the work permit holders the rest of us will be up to something similar to "normal". No change for the bases - remain on stand down.

[Fly747]

Farman Biplane

Why would they want even more pilots on the bases doing nothing? Pretty soon some of them won’t have flown for a year.
This is the perfect excuse for taking back the KA320 guys and saving the trouble and expense of training from current CX pilots, also the quickest way to get the neos flying.
Once they’ve recruited from the local/PR unemployed pilots they can then claim that others should have their work visa renewed. That is if they want them renewed of course.

[Ecam321]

What happens to the guys and gals just coming to the end of their seventh year on work permits ?

Can they go and get their PR with out any further extension from immigration, or are they buggered too ?

[Fly747]

If their current work permit takes them over the seven year line then they are safe, if not then they are in the same position as the others. Quite what that position is is still to be determined.

[Ecam321]

What a sh#t show

[viking avenger]

Even the 7 year mark isn't a gimme. PR requires an application and an approval from the immigration department before it is awarded.

[hyg]

cabbages

depends on how you look at it, if they reduce the manning level at the base, many of the based guys on the bottom of the list are DEFO onto the base who don't have HK PR, they can simply give them the "oh I did offer you a job as per your contract, but since you can't get a visa, therefore your contract is terminated".... possibly don't even have to pay them the redundancy payment as per the COS

if they go the extreme of closing the bases, again those who don't have PR will get the "oh I am sorry but it's not my fault you can't work in HK", save money on the redundancy payment too.....

The biggest hit will probably be HKE though, it's likely many of the guys there won't have spent 7 years in HK being such a new company....there are literally hundreds of 320 drivers with HKPR loitering on the street of HK at the moment

[doolay]

I wonder if this PR issue was taken into account with the 'right sizing'?

[Curry Lamb]

It wasn’t, not when an outfit is run by a bunch of clowns and amateurs.

[Walkingthedog]

I was told the original plan was to reduce head count across the board cx and ka and that at the last minute somebody came up with the bin ka idea.
Even with the original plan there was the pr issue.
perhaps they thought the problem would go away if they shut down the company.
Either way it’s a bit embarrassing for our massively well paid directors.

[Curry Lamb]

Let’s also not forget that CXi is now just another mainland carrier “under probation” by the thugs up north, who are calling the shots in Hongkers.

Next steps will be to scrap the 7 year PR, paving the way for mainland pilots to fly the brush stroke tails.

Anyone without a HK SAR or Peoples Republic of Commie Land passport and that pinkish home return permit (which is only issued if you have a squeaky clean social media) - will be told goodbye and good luck.

[Gordomac]

Do you ex-pat fellas need Resident Visas too ? The RV in places I have worked is issued only if you have a Work Visa. Two go hand in hand, of course and is usually a rubber-stamping procedure conducted by the Company seeking to employ. That no local is available for the job has also been an 'underlying' issue but obvious to the Immigration Offices otherwise the company would not be seeking the RV and EV in the first place.

US was and still is like this. For a work permit, one had to convince the immigration dept that there was no other US Citizen who could do the work and was available. Loopholes in ever scenario of course.

Many will know of my demise in the ME. Employer, basically wanted me off the campus. Allowed me to go on leave even though my RV & EV were expiring while away. They assured me all the paperwork was in place and that it would be taken care of. Boss even told me to go ahead and enjoy my California holiday and let him know if there were any jobs going (!) Off I went. Gotcha.

Upon return, RV & EV had not been renewed & after begging & pleading, got back in on a Visit Visa. I was now a visitor with no right to employment or residency.

After a lot of hassle ( or is it 'halas' - ?) I got the boot. Company claimed that it was the Immigration Dept that was refusing to give me a Employment Visa or Resident Visa as I was now a 'Visitor'.

Wish you very unsettled chaps a much better outcome & trust CX play a much more Gentlemanly game.

[hyg]

Curry Lamb

If you go the extreme conspiracy theory, this might be the beginning of ousting most western expats out of HK...they won't completely eliminate westerners, just as they allow westerners in SZ, Shanghai and Beijing in many industries... But once they oust many of the westerners this round, when the next 'boom' comes, Cathay and other companies like banks etc need to hire staff from overseas, they will be told to prove they can't find people from the North first....

[Sam Ting Wong]

Very unfortunate for some if these rumours are true.. but also common procedure in many countries, isn't it? The US and Brits even voted two very peculiar individuals as their leaders just for these simplistic "patriotic" sentiments ( get "control" back, build a wall, my country first etc). You reap what you sow one could think...

[cabbages]

Not sure that's an entirely fair comment Sam. In the UK for example, out of over 3 million EU citizens who applied for settled status, only 9 (yes, that's right - 9) have been rejected. The nine had shown ' serious or persistent criminality' , so I think that is a fair call. The UK is also expected to allow up to 3 million Hong Kong citizens to settle in the UK. That's hardly the act of a xenophobic nationalist government leader.

[badge42]

Quote. 'Boris Johnson offers 3 million Hong Kong citizens refuge in the UK.' In case you hadn't heard. Sam Ting is correct, as usual. Boris is indeed peculiar! I guess its perfectly ok to counter Sam's alleged xenophobia in the West with Xi-nophobia in the East.

[Sam Ting Wong]

https://metro.co.uk/2019/10/10/thousands-eu-citizens-denied-right-stay-uk-brexit-10893072 (https://metro.co.uk/2019/10/10/thousands-eu-citizens-denied-right-stay-uk-brexit-10893072/)



https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/22/us/politics/trump-h1b-work-visas.html

[badge42]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide

So much for 'Same team same dream'. The Uyghurs are just as Chinese as you are Sam.

[Sam Ting Wong]

I struggle to see the connection between a genocide in China and the rejection of a work permit in Hong Kong. Makes no sense whatsoever actually.

PS For the record, I would like to see work permits issued. My point is that nationalism is a double-edged sword. I am not promoting xenophobia, I am saying the exact opposite, nationalism is promoting xenophobia. I am always stunned and slightly confused sitting on the flight deck next to an immigrant in favour of anti-immigration rules at home.

Cabbage, fair point. If HK nationals get work permits in the UK this should be mutual. Just check your numbers, thousands of EU nationals have been rejected, not only 9 as you claimed. Plus without any doubt it will be much harder to work in the UK for anybody from the continent in the future.

[badge42]

Sorry Sam, you're correct again. Just some 'simplistic "patriotic" sentiments' that's all.

[badge42]

Very unfortunate for some if these rumours are true.. but also common procedure in many countries, isn't it? The US and Brits even voted two very peculiar individuals as their leaders just for these simplistic "patriotic" sentiments ( get "control" back, build a wall, my country first etc). You reap what you sow one could think...

Just to reiterate what you put on the record before you were scrutinised. ;-)

[Progress Wanchai]

While the issue over pilot work visas may be seen as xenophobic, it’s certainly not a conspiracy. The immigration department’s policy is on record for all to see. For the first time in living memory there is an excess of qualified, suitable pilots in Hong Kong and the department would seem to be following that policy. We can debate endlessly over whether they enjoy such action, but it makes little material difference.

So what are the options for the company, union and affected crew. Opening up bases is a workaround but would create a number of knock on issues.

Many of the expat crew don’t have the right to live and work in the current base areas. HKE and HKA currently don’t even have bases.
Virtually all the bases are on some version of a stand down. As such there are restrictions on those base companies recruiting ever more pilots to simply be immediately stood down.

Does employing ex CX or KA crew into Hong Kong also breach the base companies stand down provisions? If the company’s Hong Kong based crew is insufficient for the task, should stood down crew be utilized prior to employing new crew? Particularly as the company seem to have implemented a freeze on based crew relocating to Hong Kong. Can see a number of legal actions here in first world jurisdictions. Not sure that would strengthen the viability of the bases though.

As for crew applying for PR status, the requirements of the GEM no longer apply however there are different requirements. Obviously the 7 years of continuously residing in Hong Kong, but also the requirement to prove you’ve made Hong Kong your permanent home. It will be interesting to see if the immigration director continues to just rubber stamp that last requirement in regards to obvious commuters, many of whom don’t have so much as a residential lease. Then we’ll see if it’s just bureaucracy doing it’s job, or there’s been a change to the mindset. That would certainly fan the flames of the xenophobic debate.

Would seem management is once again in a hole of its own making that could have been avoided with dialogue, negotiation and compromise, yet I fully expect to see them continue to dig rather than ask for a helping hand out of the mess. I hope I’m wrong.

[KABOY]

Would seem management is once again in a hole of its own making that could have been avoided with dialogue, negotiation and compromise, yet I fully expect to see them continue to dig rather than ask for a helping hand out of the mess. I hope I’m wrong.

Not for long, remember the government is a shareholder now. They have a vested interest, and all departments will have to look after these interests. The eyes and ears(CX Government appointed directors) will be telling Mr.Chan '"immigration being difficult"

HK Immigration is just another department being led from above...

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3088671/two-observers-join-cathay-pacifics-board-weeks-hong-kong

[Dragon Pacific]

The Government’s interests also include keeping locals employed in preference to foreigners whether it be in HK or on a base. There are still far too many pilots for too few flights and an entire fleet virtually grounded. Lots of pain and confusion still to come.

[LLLQNH]

I don't expect any rush in getting this sorted. Cx don't want to hire any pilots ex KA or anyone else at the moment and still have too many of their own pilots. I expect those with expired work-permits to be Sent home on zero pay basically stood down until further notice. This situation actually works well for cx currently.

In the longer term maybe expect to see some redundant pilots offered interviews and a few perhaps one or two positions with HKE as they ramp up to smooth over the waters with immigration.

[Rie]

UO are overstocked so I am guessing the lack of permits may just help them there. The only one looking for people is AHK, the 20 CP and 20 FO could have easily come out of the KA 330 pool.

[Bueno Hombre]

Curry Lamb

If you go the extreme conspiracy theory, this might be the beginning of ousting most western expats out of HK...they won't completely eliminate westerners, just as they allow westerners in SZ, Shanghai and Beijing in many industries... But once they oust many of the westerners this round, when the next 'boom' comes, Cathay and other companies like banks etc need to hire staff from overseas, they will be told to prove they can't find people from the North first....
Very true, what is wrong with that? At best Hong Kong. in time, might be considered as a colony of China, otherwise a mere province of China, unlike the French who habitually nationalised their most juicy colonies.

[deja vu]

So glad I never had to work with you sad miserable prats.

[Krone]

It appears AHK will be recruiting, but cautiously, and reading in between the lines, only Hk PR and more than likely, HK resident, if you read the blurb about local workforce.

Air HongKong (http://www.airhongkong.com.hk/public/getitem.php?id=c16ebc65-8c9a-4be5-9373-266d0dc6fa20)

There was mention previously in this thread, about job opportunities for ex ka crew. however, it looks like only direct entry jfo onto the A300, so that cant be very appealing, or likely for a ex ka A330 skipper, or even sfo. Zero chance if you are not wide body rated.

[Pistolpete47]

Seems to be little chance for anyone. Had an application with them for 3 months and no reply. 3000 hrs on airbus wide body and hk pr and licence /medical.
maybe instructions from big brother cx putting a hold on their recruitment.

[Walkingthedog]

i believe some ka pilots got jobs. Family connections in one case?

[GMEDX]

Two KA FOs got jobs as they had applied even before the redundancies, early bird and all that.
Another got a call from them as they needed an A300 rated pilot to replace someone who dropped out during sim, he started the next day and was ex AHK.
Zero chance if you’re not HKPR.

I hear too that guys are being given a work visa by Immigration if they have done six years to get them to the seven; three or four years get a refusal.

[GMEDX]

Immigration are not just picking on pilots. Due to the increasing unemployment in HK they are being tough on all categories and have issued far fewer work visas this year.

[Walkingthedog]

Does anybody have an idea how many people are affected in the 4 HKG airlines?
I imagine there has been steady recruiting for a while.

[GMEDX]

My guesstimate is 1400. There will be a trickle effect of 10-15 guys hitting needing a new visa every week.

[Walkingthedog]

One can only wonder at the seeming lack of foresight of senior management if that’s the case.
I guess the collateral damage extends to corporate jets and HKA.

[Suvarnabhumi]

Lack of foresight in that the Immigration department will now effectively aid CX group in culling pilot numbers to a lean number for the new normal? Doing the nasty work for them?

Suitably qualified HK citizens then PR's being invited for recruitment selection once increased pilot numbers actually required ? Could be a while for that yet?

[BalloonBuster]

Ah, and there is your problem, ‘Suitably’ qualified HK citizens.
In the last 18 years i have only seen a few.
So either you keep your expats, or very quickly become the new Korean/Asiana...

[cyrex]

Balloon Buster

Here we go again. Taking shots at locals whenever you see an opportunity. If you actually used your brain for once you will realize your "suitably"qualified HK citizen can include expats who are Permanent Resident as well.

[Walkingthedog]

Not only that you seem to ignore the many experienced and very capable local crews KA had in both seats and as trainers.
That old nonsense about “ethnicity” vs capability is getting rather tired. It’s about selection and training with an emphasis on the latter.

I might add that the vast majority of our locals were very pleasant people to work with. It was always an easy day out with them.

[veritas777]

BalloonBuster

Go back to Ryanair, I'm sure you'll be with your highly talented equals with absolutely no safety shortcomings.

[Flex88]

BalloonBuster

What you should say is "suitably" trained and developed... This NEVER had anything to do with local or not, it always had everything to do with training and the capital invested in that regard.. Asiana, Korean, Singapore & China Airlines and their "local citizen management" cheaped out, looked the other way, and paid a very big price..
CX and its 3rd floor types, previous and those seated there NOW, have done the exact same thing and depending on present day crew makeup, may or may not pay a price. For CX, it's always about the money (i.e year end management bonus). Period...

[Dragon Baron]

I might add that the vast majority of our locals were very pleasant people to work with. It was always an easy day out with them.

Indeed some of the best days out when things got busy were with the locals. They might have lacked stories about scaring themselves in pre-airline single pilot ops but they knew the KA job second to none.

[Flex88]

veritas777

Not possible, I followed the trail of wasted money and complied with orders to take Merlin Swires pet Unconcious Bias & Diversity training program 😬 Part of CX's Life Well Travelled Money Well Wasted program😳