SWISS - Once a fine airline, now.....

[Al E. Vator]

How COULD this happen. This is more than 'teething' troubles, this indicates serious structural problems. Tha SAAB 340 crash, the Jumbolino crash and the SAAB 2000 crash should NEVER be repeated.

=========================================
Swiss pilots licensed by unqualified instructors: watchdog

Unqualified instructors passed 50 pilots to fly a particular type of aircraft for Switzerland's troubled new airline Swiss, according to a statement by the country's civil aviation authority (OFAC), which canceled the tests.

OFAC says between late March and mid-July three instructors had passed the pilots to fly the Brazilian-made Embraer 145, although "they were not entitled to do so".

The instructors concerned were authorised to carry out flying tests, but not for that particular type of aircraft.

OFAC says it has canceled the tests and barred the 50 Swiss airline pilots from flying the Embraer.

Swiss admitted they had made "probably a wrong interpretation" of the European aviation rules.

"There is no indication that leads us to conclude that Swiss and the instructors had acted intentionally or in violation of security norms," OFAC said.

But an OFAC committee is to investigate whether pilots were approved to fly other types of aircraft in the Swiss fleet by unqualified instructors.

OFAC is also considering opening criminal and civil cases against those responsible.
=====================================
Reproduced from the Australian Broadcasting Authority.

[atakacs]

Out of curiousity: is it more an "admin" problem or a qualification problem ?

--alex

[TDK mk2]

Betta stick to what you know down at Moorabbin mate! My line had a five thousand hour on type check captains license lapse while he wasn't looking. By the letter of the law all the OPC/LPCs he did were invalid but do you really think he was any less qualified to test just because his license was a couple of weeks out of date??

The final reports for some of those accidents mentioned have not been released and regarding the Saab 2000 accident, they found themselves in a situation we all dread - but thankfully extremely rarely face. In the circumstances they appear to have been unbelievable unlucky...

[Al E. Vator]

Not 1 but 3 check captains unqualified.

Not 1 but 3 serious accidents.

I will not allow my family to travel on what was once Crossair. There are some good pilots there of course but the airline should be used as a classic example of why accountants should not run airlines.

The mantra was operate as cheaply as possible. This of course meant get the cheapest pilots. Not all were bad of course but far too many were simply not up to scratch or ill-trained (to save $).
The net result has been tragic for Switzerland, the reputation of the country and the travelling public.

This is not intended as a Swissair/Crossair battle, just a look at reality. If what was Crossair can't even run region ops safely (this should now be beyond doubt) how can they operate a world-class airline? Some serious soul-searching needed at Swiss NOW, berfore more tragedy occurs.

[TDK mk2]

Well it's a good thing you don't have to, down yonder. Do you have a special interest in this particular airline, or just commenting for the sake of it?

[near enuf is good enuf]

"a couple of weeks out of date",
Maybe a couple of months would be ok too or sher why not a few years. They are very experienced !
Actually why bother having a licence at all ?

If they can't be professional enuf to keep their licences in check I certainly don't want to fly with 'em.

[Rwy in Sight]

Al E. Vator

If what was Crossair can't even run region ops safely (this should now be beyond doubt) how can they operate a world-class airline? Some serious soul-searching needed at Swiss NOW, berfore more tragedy occurs.

My understanding is that regional operations is harder becuase it involves more cycles in potentially harder IFR than medium or long haul. Additionally mentality plays a hugh role on the operation if they are safe or not and I thought Swiss are excedingly safe. Although swissguide gave me some concern.


Rwy

[sottens]

I agree, one could argue that what counts eventually is the real "hands-on" experience, which a certificate does not necessarily replace. But, come on, rules are rules and there is no reason why Swiss should not abide.
It's our taxpayer's money (and lives?) these people are playing with and how can Swiss can be so arrogant not to abide to established laws. As if Swiss really had the financial and structural health to mess around.
Swiss has been accumulating errors since the very first day and it seems that no one wants to react.

WHO IN THAT COUNTRY WILL EVENTUALLY SUPERVISE THAT COMPANY ???
Mr. Leuenberger, please wake up!

[TDK mk2]

near enuf is good enuf,

I see you've never made a mistake in your life, which is a good quality for an engineer. Unfortunately it's a fact of life that pilots make mistakes - even the very best ones...

[Cup B]

even the very best ones...

that is right. even I have made one mistake in my life :D

[middlepath]

probably largest number of pilot being grounded in the history of aviation due to negligence or unprofessionalism at swiss.

why this happened in first place and who is responsible for such an unthinkable error.

NO 1:
I can only think that chief training pilot is directly responsible for all licencing,qualification and training related matters. This reflects there is plenty of room for improvement in the training department.

NO2:
The TRI/TRE them selves are directly responsile to maintain proper credentials before they even think of lecturing students.

NO3:
Runing a training department in JAR inviroment is no longer for amateurs, Chief training pilot has to be 100% upto the job and knowledge required.

NO4:
If Swiss really wish to retain their reputation as a national airlines, its high time to install a qualified chief training pilot.

NO4:
can not depend just on lady pilot related to foca chief to solve problems.

[middlepath]

tdk mk2

I think there is more than just a isolated mistake in this case.

crash of saab 340, 2000, erj 146, bending JAR rules will not be tolerated and blaming on foca and misinterpreting of rules will not be excused. FOCA need to look indepth with their training.

[middlepath]

any comment ?

[sottens]

I was not at all referring to pilot mistakes - versions of all the latest events are so contradictory depending on who they're sourced from that it's impossible for a non-insider to base a judgement on it.
I was talking mainly about obstination and lack of pragmatism that lead to management errors. One simple example : corporate name and identity - Swiss Air Lines Ltd... and then suddenly Swiss International Air Lines... this kind of mistakes you can do only with hands full of cash (what they had), but not in a low-margin industry where cash is your blood.
and this is one example.

[Albatros6]

Well, JAR in General leaves a lot of questions, and as far as i know, the Swiss FAA could have discreetly inform SWISS that because of a new rule (which was only brougth to attention by e-mail!!!) a type rating has to be entered also for instruction purposes...it's a paperstorm...

But for the beginning question, look exactly which part of SWISS is having/making problems?

[773829]

I agree, that people are making mistakes (even pilots..), but if you see in one part of the company all the mistakes and a not only a few and minor ones, than I think everybody should start thinking!

I still hear the following sentence from the ex-Crossair pilots union CCP: “Same work, same salary”. But same work means same quality, too. And definitely the regional part of SWISS doesn’t work the same quality; otherwise they wouldn’t be all the time with negative headlines in the press!

[theblipdriver]

to 126.9

so, you prefer to fly with other "safer" airlines? like lufthansa, which almost crashed an airbus because of a mis-connection of the captains joystick? or like alitalia, which smacked a dc9 on the stadlerberg, because of a catastrophic CRM? or like SIN, departing on a wrong runway?
how do suggest that swiss is less safe than others? i know many people which told me about some procedures in THEIR airline. it's not better than swiss...it's just that in some other countries the culture of ripping the own airlines on the front page of yellow press is not as developed in switzerland :( and after all, it has to do with good or bad luck.
have a look on some homepages of accident investigation boards. it's best to never fly again and take the train. (oh. sorry...forgot eschede). as far as i know, no airline is 100% safe. if you can prove the opposite, go ahead, but no "airline xxx has never crashed an airline in the last xxx years". to have a safe airline you have to remove the human factor. and that's definetly impossible!!!

cheers

[773829]

Dear Theblipdriver


- Safety is if you not have 3 (THREE) total losses within two years!
- If you don't have at least 2 (TWO) runway excoursions within 1 year!
- If you not have a pilot union, who is telling at the main TV station, that you have a safety problem, because you are fighting for a better CLA!
- If you not have used the wrong oil for your enginges!
- If you not have pilots taking drugs for work!
- etc.......


And just to make it clear, it is all in connection with former Crossair and not with former Swissair.


PLEASE TAKE CARE...................., because I care about SWISS Internation Airlines!

[theblipdriver]

And just to make it clear, it is all in connection with former Crossair and not with former Swissair.


PLEASE TAKE CARE...................., because I care about SWISS Internation Airlines!


i DO CARE about swiss too, and I agree that there are more problems on the CRX than on the SWR-side regarding safety...for me, it's just wrong to yell around that swiss is unsafe, and all the other airlines are better. that was the main point.

one really good statement of ph. bruggisser was "you must not make publicity with safety. because everything can happen to everyone. and then people think you lied to them" (and this was before halifax)

so, what is now the safest airline?

i didn't mean to wash swiss' hands clean. but it's still far from an "unsafe" airline. and, most hopefully, will never get even close to...

cheers

[Akro]

regarding middlepaths comments about the license problem with SWISS, all I have to say is this....find out the facts pal before making comments that you obviously have no clue about. Reading the Blick is hardly a form of reliable info.
The problem came about from the FOCA and they admitted the fault and THEY went to the papers and now the ERJ team are taking legal action.

[Alpha Leader]

The accident report on the AZ DC-9 crash at Stadlerberg did not exactly exonerate ATC either.......

[N380UA]

And just to make it clear, it is all in connection with former Crossair and not with former Swissair.

have a look at those number buddy:

LX - SR

Av. No. of fataleties/year 1.3 - 5.8
Av. No. of fataleties/loos 17.0 - 26.5

http://www.jacdec.de/


Of course, such statistics do nothing to solve any problem Swiss is having amongst its crew and doesn’t really reflect on safety and standards of a carrier. What it does show, however is that just about every airline has had, or will have some loos.

(Some physicist once tried to explain it to me through applied quantum physics....never quite understood that formula)

Anyhow, 773829, the Blick isn't the source to go to as it was mentioned before. And I for one and a bunch of others are still feeling very safe upon boarding an aircraft piloted by former lx crews. Let’s stick to the facts we know, let’s not speculate and let’s all try to pull this wagon out of the mud together, the situation is (worldwide) bad enough as it is without us screwing each other.-

[Proceed As Cleared]

What is your problem?! :mad:

Again one of your posts is completely out of context! :mad:

And, surprising enough, again you keep on bashing Swiss ATC. :mad:

Would you care to appreciate, that the controller in charge, when the AZA DC9 crashed, was acquitted of all charges by the swiss federal court 2 years ago?

You seem to have persistent resentments against Skyguide and I wouldn't be as mad, if your posts were at least objective !

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[skypointer]

if your posts were at least objective

Hey, Proceed As Cleared, no reason to get a heartattack! Some writers disqualify themselves - Alpha Leader is one of them.

While skyguide clearly has some problems to solve - like corporate communication, I would never doubt the professionalism of its controllers. And certainly nobody with a clear mind and a clue about aviation could blame an ATC controller for a crash of an airliner, that went below an instument glidepath and did a CFIT about 6 NM final.

Some poeple just want to distract from the real topic: That the former LX part of SWISS has a real safety problem. For those who haven't realized this yet, the upcoming accident report of the Nassenwil crash will certainly be insightful reading...

[gofer]

AL was not - completely up the wall - as he didn't start the comment - blip did, if you read back. Sorry:(

As to AL's opinions compared to the legal situation, well we are all allowed to have them - even thought in Switzerland foreigners are not allowed to state them in public - unless they accept deportation as the risk.

Could even understand your stance, if it was not for the recent events.

733829

As an only semi-unbiased person, I do take offence to the heavy LX bashing - which actually totally undermines the company you all say you want to save.

Sombody was nice enough to a get LX out of the SR implosion and a country was nice enough to finance another round and then the ungrateful and unemployed SR staff who are in some cases still paid more for an equivalent task, are ungrateful for having been found a home and having persuaded a twisted management into allowing them keep their previous seniority. Talk about killing the golden goose.

Thats how it looks to lots of outsiders - and when it does, they just stay away. So do I if I can because I see a serious lack of effort on the part of ex. SR crews to improve service to a level above that of the deaththrows of last year - still living in a past that has long since gone, and will be gone again if this goes on more than a few weeks.

Luckily for me, I have a choice (around a 300'000 miles a year choice); employees only have an employer or the dole.

While we're at it
To me, and some others, much of the saga's woes seem to come from one of the pseudo saviours in management today. To my eyes, until I can read a few reports, the two LX hull losses (S340 & RJ) come from a concatination of Haley type little incidents, not the least of which is the crew rostering - one of somebody's direct responsibilities I think - at least at the time of the first incident.

The seniority SNAFU and the salary differentials FUBAR's were also sourced at a senior level of the management, and were absolutly clear to anybody with a week's experience of unions that this would be the possible "end all".

Part of me still hopes that SWISS get their act together and make it happen - the rest of me just expects to see the whole thing collapse (current book suggests - MAR03) and if that happens there is no Easter Bunny with a crock of gold to pick up the pieces again - it will be MOL or Easypickings and the pay will be worse for anybody who does get a sweathouse job at all.

So my advice to you all is - stop p*ss*ng around, get your act together, and for something's sake, stop talking and snivelling around, get on with it ,and prove us all wrong.

[arcniz]

skypointer says:

While skyguide clearly has some problems to solve - like corporate communication, I would never doubt the professionalism of its controllers.


What planet are you from, fella? Explain that to the people who are now just carbon-am-Bodensee due to less than stellar ATC performance.

A touch of realism would help here.

[skypointer]

Well, arcniz, I never intended to say it was a good job to bring those two aircraft on a collision course. And neither is it a good job to ignore a TCAS RA. So let's wait and see what the accident report says. I am sure skyguide will have to change procedures, as quite a few airlines will have to - at least - clarify their TCAS procedures.

I was mainly referring to the Alitalia accident, where the controller clearly could not be blamed.

On the other hand, we all make mistakes from time to time. And in some rare cases these mistakes lead to tragic accidents like the midair collision over Lake Konstanz. What I am saying is that skyguide is as good as any european ATC unit and I do not say there is no room for improvement. But accidents may happen to the best! I have seen a few Airprox in my career as a pilot - one in swiss airspace and the rest elsewhere...

What made me really angry was, that after the midair collision skyguide management blamed the TU pilot without even knowing the facts. All that a party involved in an accident has to say is, that they are first of all sorry for the casualties and that they will provide all imformation needed for the investigation and will be prepared to bear the responsability, if it was their fault. Everything else is simply unprofessional. That's why I said skyguide has to rethink its corporate communication.

[arcniz]

Skypointer writes:
".. we all make mistakes from time to time." :
While philosphically indisputable, this is not a good motto for an ATC organization... or any other one connected with aviation.

The function of SOP's is to provide some cross-checking and recovery mechanism for inevitable human errors.

The function of management is to ensure that SOP's (and other forms of operational good practice) are followed 100 percent of the time.

In this case the procedures seem to have been lacking or absent and the management was sleeping quietly when Skyguide put those two aircraft together for their destruction in an otherwise empty sky.

Nothing good can be said about the Skyguide side of this incident. The inept 'damage control' efforts of various Skyguide people after the tragic event shows how little they care about the the real misson of an ATC organization and how totally out of control "Swissguide" management was / is. A team of ten year old children would have done it better - and with more humanity!

I have great affection and respect for nearly everything Swiss, but I fear for the future if the people in positions of responsibility think Schweitzer Qualitat is in any way present in this deplorable ATC circus.

[Robert Vesco]

Skypointer,

On the other hand, we all make mistakes from time to time. We all make mistakes, except ex-SR pilots I guess..... :rolleyes:

Some poeple just want to distract from the real topic: That the former LX part of SWISS has a real safety problem.

Talking about professionalism, why don´t the ex-SR "colleagues" within SWISS reach out a helping hand to their ex-LX colleagues and try to establish a better safety culture for the benefit of the whole company, not just the ex-SR ops ? Instead, one hand of the ex-SR pilots is in their pockets guarding their wallet, the other hand is pointing the middle finger at their ex-LX "colleagues."

The present expantion of Crossair would have been a perfect opportunity to level the playing flield a little bit more. It´s not just about money, it´s a much bigger picture. Things like better training, a better safety culture, less commercial pressure on pilots, and yes, equal holidays and fair seniority system that will not scare good pilots away as soon as they have enough hours to leave the company. There are many things that could and/or should be improved within the ex-LX operation, but I sometimes get the impression that Aeropers deliberately wants to prevent LX of improving anything, because in the present situation (LX pilots are idiots, SR pilots are Gods) can easily be used to justify the privileges of the ex-SR pilots. When the need arises to bash the LX pilots corps (like now, during a dispute about a new contract) there are plenty of incidents and accidents available to make Crossair pilots look like the idots. Not only on this forum, but also in the Swiss media, Aeropers does not hesitate to do so ! Very ´convenient´ for Aeropers, isn´t it ? And these people see themselves as more "professional" Sad, really sad ! :( :( :(

All we get in the new contract is a little extra money while we get screwed on virtually every other part. The extra money, I consider ´danger money,´ a pay off, a bribe, whatever, for getting screwed in the new contract, while operating into more ´challenging´ fields like Lugano, Bern, La Mole, or London City. Nice for the Swiss ego (a Swiss flag at every airport :rolleyes: ), the SWISS route network and to feed the fancy oversized (ex-SR) long haul fleet, and hey....when something goes wrong, it´s easy to point the finger at those ´stupid´ Crossair pilots again.

[MartinBaker]

RV

1/ I don't think anybody needs to point fingers ...reading your postings is quite enuff!!

2/ if the LH fleet is oversized ..why are all the planes full?

3/ For the rest I suggest you get rid of your 'chip on the shoulder' and organise a reality check.

Best regards nevertheless

[Robert Vesco]

I´m very impressed by your first post MB ! Amazing that you found the time to invent a username and go through the trouble to register and share your ´visionary´ thoughts with us here on PPRuNe. Here´s a quick reply to your 3 ´ground breaking´ points : :D

1) This part of your post has been very ´informative´ and backed up with a lot of ´arguments.´ My sincere thanks ! :rolleyes:

2) It´s easy to fill any aircraft if the ticket prices/yields are low enough. In the current economic climate, do the words "supply and demand" ring a bell ? :p

3) Good night ! http://www.smilies.nl/bounce/huepfenjump1.gif

[Alpha Leader]

My post "completely out of context"? Get your brain switched on (if you can find it) and then sit back and let the notion sink in that I replied directly to an item posted by "theblipdriver".

Moreover, I am fully aware that the controller was acquitted by a Swiss court. However, my posting pertains to the BFU report, which - and I stand by my remarks - did not entirely exonorate ATC at the time.

By the way: I love your little "mad faces" - have you ever tried to place a dozen in one of your postings?

[Proceed As Cleared]

With skypointer's words:

Some writers disqualify themselves - Alpha Leader is one of them

Nuff said.

[Alpha Leader]

Wonderful....you've got at least one friend in "skypointer"

For your benefit: the BFU report on the Stadlerberg crash listed a total of nine factors as attributable causes, one being negligence by the controller who could have prevented the accident from happening had he provided a timely warning to the crew.

The fact that a criminal investigation into the conduct of the controller resulted in no charges being brought and that the Federal Court - in a subsequent civil case - ruled out any financial liability on the part of ATC does not alter the findings of the accident report.

[kitesurfer]

RB good on ya mate. One thing people always seem to omit is the fact that anybody can fill seats, but what you make from those seats is a totally different story.
Another thing is that the so called short haul fleet is not making money and that is why the LH guys are earning the higher salary. I would say that flying a 5 rotation day is a fair amount of work and our dear friends flying the "big" birds average , what, about 3 landings each a month.
How do the management work out that the A319/20/21 is long haul....look at the routes pal and you'll see that ERJ-145 have longer routes than those things:eek:

[773829]

Hello Kitesurfer


Who cares about distances flown or amount of landings? It is everywhere the same. People with better qualifications earn more! I mean not, that all ex-LX pilot are not good qualified, but until now they could not show! So if you are just a little patient, than you get the same job as the former SR pilots, with the better salary.

Qualification for me means what you learnt before flying, how you learnt flying and what attitude you show in general.

By the way are you really sure, that a pilot with 20 landings a month is the better pilot, than one who is doing only one or two? (Some people need a lot of training to keep their standards...)


Gruss

[from A to Better]

77 something,

Although I cannot deny that there are some safety issues at the ex-crx operation it is pathetic that you keep telling that it is a reason for differences in salary.

Also, you are very proud of being an ex-sr pilot with all the qualifications, etc. but there must surely made some mistake somewhere in your selection process because you are lacking some basic english skills, cause-result analyses, I could go on.

With all your implied knowledge and qual. you AP guys should have been able to prevent the Swissair management tanking the company. Where where you?

You say you should more money because of your qualifications but AP (together with management) says it is because of LH/SH and aircraft size. Wich is it?

Most ex-crx pilots are not asking for more money, just the same secondary work-conditions and a fair seniority system.

And reading your last words, can you explain to me what makes a better pilot ?

take care

[skypointer]

Nice to see all those ex-LX guys on the net. Have you got to much time at home 'cause your licences were illegal?:D
Well luckily I was able to go flying out of one of my days off - so one flight less had to be canceled...

RV, back as well? How was your comedian course? Doesn't seem to have helped much though! Your still not very witty. But I have news for you. Ex SR is helping you improve your training program. Our new head of trainig is ex SR and he introduced already more simulator events on some regional fleets. Head TRTO is also helping you to adapt your conversion courses. But the process would be considerabely faster, if an ex SR guy with a good idea would be seen as something else than just a imperialistic, elitarian asshole who thinks he knows everything better.
there are plenty of incidents and accidents available to make Crossair pilots look like the idots
It's the first time we agree, isn't it? I never said that all Crossair pilots are idiots because I am well aware that the majority of them are capable pilots. You will also not find a SR pilot that thinks he's god - our selection process prevented such people from entering a cockpit. Some of them were hired by LX instead, where having a CPL was qualification enough. And exactly those pilots are makeing SWISS operation look bad now! To think you're god doesn't help CRM. Read the upcoming Nassenwil report.

It's CCP who started the dirty media war. Aeropers is only defending itself. If CCP says all pilots are the same, while making a clown out of themselves every day, its only natural that Aeropers emphasizes the differences.

BTW: If your not interested in the money, why are you talking about nothing else then? The statment "We're not interested in the money, but we wan't the same salary as a SR pilot" is a contradiction in itself. Whether it's fair or not: pilot salaries are paid according to aircraft size throughout the whole industry and you will not be able to change this. And neither can you change the fact that a Saab is smaller than a Airbus. (MD80 pilots were offered the Airbus salary - as you perhaps know.) The vacation statment is false too, as the contract was adapted in this point as well. So you should update your argumentation from time to time...

I can understand that you are thinking that Lugano and London city are the two most challanging fields one earth, as you do not seem to have left europe in your career. But you forgot to mention Werneuchen in your list.:o

And kitesurfer says:
look at the routes pal and you'll see that ERJ-145 have longer routes than those things
Now, just because you have 25% more flighttime on your way to Vienna, that doesn't make the route any longer.:D Have you ever flown to JED in your Embriolino? (For the rgional pilots: JED is in Saudi Arabia)
I would say that flying a 5 rotation day is a fair amount of work and our dear friends flying the "big" birds average , what, about 3 landings each a month.
I have 85 blockhours and 46 landings this month. Comined Longhaul/Shorthaul. A fair amount of work for you?

[N380UA]

Qualification for me means what you learnt before flying, how you lernt flying and what attitude you show in general.

Huh??

I have a university degree and received flight training from UL on a 733 and yet SR found me unqualified? They did tell me to go to SRAS though and spend some 100’000 CHF to ascertain “SR standards”. What a bunch of bull****.

A bunch of ex-LX drivers, in fact hold several uni. degrees, graduated from SRAS so what makes you think that you are better then them?
As for the problem (topic) at hand; it isn’t Skyguide, it isn’t ex-anything….its the attitude of all involved.

Ex-LX; just go on as is for the time being, rebuild a solid structure then demand equalisation.
Ex-SR; you are not better than you colleagues, period. Come on down from your imaginative status.

Darn it guys, get on with it – rebuild! -take your second and last chance and make it happen.

[skypointer]

Well, RV, EMB 145 fleet, will have 4 Sim events starting 2003. As well should the Briefing time be adapted. All this can be read in the join together training memo from TRTO. Perhaps, instaed of just ppruneing, you should start to inform yourself through official channels as well?

Could you show me where this statement is written
Why don't you read your CCP statements from time to time? I just took the liberty to put it in one sentence. If you prefer to hear it I could provide you with a copy of Mr. Häderlis statments on Tele Züri a few days ago...

And concernig disqualification: who insulted whom? I said the majority of ex LX pilots was capable. I don't think thats an insult! While I don't know your flying capabilities, I think it's better we won't be flying together too soon...

Now that was really clever RV, first provoking by calling me a nazi and a liar and then delete the whole thing - congratulations

[N380UA]

Oh that’s great Skypointer! Now such statements really make for a happy work environment!!!:mad:

[Robert Vesco]

Thank you for your post N380UA,

Your SR story reminds me of when I came back to Europe after I passed my FAA CPL IR, ME IR, CFII and MEI and had to sit boring theory exams to get my European licences. It´s the typical snobbish European mentality that they are better then anybody else. The same is happening now within Swiss and this is leading to a lot of unnecesary tention. Instead of accepting that we can all learn from eachother, we now have a situation where one pilot corps (in the same company) is bashing the other. Just read skypointer´s posts, or look at Aeropers´ statements in the media :(

Ex-LX; just go on as is for the time being, rebuild a solid structure then demand equalisation. That´s excatly what we will do and that´s also why Aeropers and managment are gettng more scared by the day. We still have a valid (old) contract until 2005 and the courts have proven to be on our side.

Skypointer,

RV, back as well? How was your comedian course? Doesn't seem to have helped much though!

You will also not find a SR pilot that thinks he's god - our selection process prevented such people from entering a cockpit. OK, I admit it, you are funnier. :) Just by reading your posts again (full of insults), I think that you just disqualified yourself from being inside any SR cockpit. :D

[skypointer]

Oh that’s great Skypointer! Now such statements really make for a happy work environment!!!
As you might have noticed, the work environment is not happy at all. If you think that RV and me together would make a nice, happy and safe cockpit crew, I'm sorry I cannot agree. I don't say it's entirely RV's fault - I know my limitations... But I doubt RV does - of course this a prejudice of mine, but I cannot help it.

If you think that I am the reason for the unhappy work environment, you either take me to important or you underestimate the scope of the differences and the - sorry to use the word - hatred between the two corps. Your choice.

[Cup B]

Hey, am I glad I turned down a job offer by Crossair a couple of years ago! Maybe I make less money than I would have with Crossair or whatever they call them now but at least I can fly safely with ALL crew in my company. Isn't that great or what!:confused:

[126.9]

... and they managed to put together a confederation of cantons and form a country; unbelieveable! :D :p

[skypointer]

...but it took a war first (Sonderbundskrieg) which ended in 1847, with almost no casualties. The side that didn't call the others nazis just because they had an other opinion won - or similar as there were no nazis in 1847. So lets hope for once that history repeats itself...

[Cup B]

and they managed to put together a confederation of cantons and form a country; unbelieveable!

Yep, but they started in 1291 and it has been going down the drain since then :rolleyes:

[Robert Vesco]

Thank you skypointer....

Anyway, back to topic. Just blaming the LX pilots for anything that goes wrong is not fair in my point of view. It´s managment incompetence. You get what you pay for, and managment has never seriously invested in it´s personel. Managment continues to have a complete disregard for the Law or industry standards, and this is setting the standard for the whole company. Whether it´s technical/maintanance problems, the contract between the flight attendants, the shortage of flight attendants, the blunders that were made with trying to bring together the LX and ex-SR pilot corps, the whole Tyler Brule Swisssssssssss media hype and now the licencing problem of some Embrio 145 pilots.......the list goes on and on and on ! If you realize that there are a lot of ex-SR people calling the shots form behind the scenes, then you have to come to the conclussion that it´s not just a "Crossair" problem. The Crossair managers are perhaps not the greatest in the world, but one glance at the bankrupt SAir Group shows that SR managers are not of much help either.

The New Crossair (a.k.a. Swiss) is based on emotional quicksand, rather then strong economic foundations. Let´s hope that we get some real leadership soon, before it´s too late.

[skypointer]

Full marks RV. Might we have found some common ground after all? If you pay peanuts you get monkeys... It's valid for pilots as well!

This isn't meant as an insult for the Crossair pilots, but it explains why you cannot pay much less than than the industry standard for a long time - think about it!

[Robert Vesco]

Precisely skypointer, that´s why the Aeropers strategy of treating the LX pilots like sh!t, will eventually backfire if you start looking at SWISS as one company !

Good pilots with enough experience will try to go to greener grass because they do NOT like getting screwed with seniority, vacation etcetera. Additionally foreign captains with great ideas of how to improve things are send home, because SWISS has to be for the Swiss now.

Pilots left at OC1 will roughly be; badly motivated, not very experienced and cheaply trained first officers, and, captains with questionable standards that will flunk any selection for any other airline. :eek: Great ! :mad:

...but it explains why you cannot pay much less than than the industry standard for a long time I agree, but in all fairness, please also apply the same logic/industry standard to seniority ! You can not apply industry standards when it suits you, and disregard them when it does not suit you. Like I stated many times before, this battle is about seniority, not about money, because we can already see the black clouds hanging over SWISS.

Like this Swiss can never build a quality airline with a motivated workforce. SWISS is build on quicksand and this B-GAV is definitely not improving things.

[gofer]

I was going to suggest a vote on when SWISS breaks up, given that neither side LX or SR seem to be willing to show an olive branch.. but I won't bother - its an absolute dead cert. given the texts above.

Sorry to see you throw your last chances away, but you certainly won't get more tax money this way; and especially not if my voice is heard. You'll only find me on Swiss using up my hard earnt miles.

Felt very sad for Moritz having to walk away from his baby, but glad for him now, very glad that he got out in time....... he didn't deserve this stubborn childish stupidity. Sadly there is probably more chance true peace in Northern Ireland or even the Middle East than getting you guys to understand that it takes team work and not the German version of TEAM as an acronym (roughly translated as 'Great Somebody Else can do It').

:(

[skypointer]

Felt very sad for Moritz having to walk away from his baby
Your saint Moritz gets a pretty bad bashing from the Nassenwil accident investigation board for hiring the chaepest pilots in the market, not checking their qualification and not giving them proper training. So maybe he wasn't a saint after all? What a surprise!

Pilots left at OC1 will roughly be; badly motivated, not very experienced and cheaply trained first officers, and, captains with questionable standards that will flunk any selection for any other airline.
Full marks again. Only that the incidents and accidents within LX indicate that it might already be so... And it's no wonder after Moritz (see above) screwed his pilots for years, while there was a great demand for good, experienced pliots in the last few years up to Sep 11 2001. I'd like to stress again that I don't think all ex LX pilots are bad - but there are certainly some, as you seem to agree. LX hired 500 pilots - half of its corps - since 1997! So we can safely speak of an inexperienced corps. Upgrading to Captain was after 3 yaers depending on aircraft type - no seniority 'til 2000. What CCP wants to do now is to put those inexperienced pilots in front of the SR pilots with much more experience and of undisputed quality. Meanwhile the Aeropers solution counts each pilots years of service in either company equally. If you hire a pilot you put him on the bottom of seiority - but if you merge to companies it won't work in the same way. And integrating 2/3 of SR and Crossair into SWISS was a merger, if you use common sense.

What you say about OC1 is equally true about OC2, if you merge seniority with the CCP zipper! And then SWISS is really doomed.

BTW: What do you think we should do with those "captains with questionable standards that will flunk any selection for any other airline"? Just let them keep on flying? I've never heard CCP speak of such guys, as we are all the same in their terminology!

[124.8]

I think, by judging some spelling in these columns, there are people who need to improve their spelling, if that is the way you will fly an aircraft, hope I am NOT on board with you, even if you think you are Swiss with the mentality of having the best everywhere....
I also had airforce training, and was involved in war, and have good flying qualifications, but I hope my attitude to my fellow colleges remain shiny.
Keep on fighting, AP....:p

[Robert Vesco]

Yes skypointer,

Full marks again. Only that the incidents and accidents within LX indicate that it might already be so... And it's no wonder after Moritz (see above) screwed his pilots for years, while there was a great demand for good, experienced pliots in the last few years up to Sep 11 2001 This is exactly my point, first we got screwed by MS, now we get screwed by AP. Net result : zero changes for OC 1 ! Crossair and Swissair are dead, long live OC1 and OC2 ! :(

[Albatros6]

was founded in 1291, but a lot of time and stories had to pass until today, including soldiers from one part of a canton (district) were fighting (well, rather slaughtering...) the one from the other part of the same canton at the opposite side of the battlefield, but not within switzerland but elsewhere and under command of somebody else...

And we are still here...

Hey, come on guys, just deleted a few sentences about Moritz Suter (too nasty) , which i believe played a role similar to a "Rattenfänger von Hameln" in Aviation. His bright side in public has a very dark counterpart if you better know him (of course not viewable if you rely on him on beeing in the game...) I believe there's a possibility to run a airline in Switzerland, the 5000 million Francs put in the sand by the former SR-Managment have been earnt before by....flying. The new ship is by far not yet steaming as it should, but on course...

[skypointer]

124.8, sorry for my eventual misspellings. If you prefer we could continue in french, german or italien, although I cannot guarantee absulote orthographic correctness in all those languages, as I'm a pilot and not a language professor. How about you? If this is the only thing you can contribute, I suggest you go to a grammar/orthography forum - if such a thing exists...
BTW: How do you spell Switzerland???

[max lenz]

next hearing on September 24th in Bülach; details in German only on http://home.tiscalinet.ch/maxlenz

[773829]

Max Du bist ein einsamer Mensch....

[Alpha Leader]

....endlich wieder im Rampenlicht :)...welcome back!

[N380UA]

Skyguide, Stadlerberg, 1291, war, the xenophobic guide to the Swiss, Suter what else?... oh ya, cantons and Sonderbundskrieg.

What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach, so you get what we had here last week which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. And I don't like it any more than you men.

Good luck to you, Swiss International Air Lines.
Indeed, good luck to all of us.............................

[Albatros6]

Hi N380UA

sorry, can you help me, who did you quote?

rgds

[N380UA]

The quote is attributed to "Captain, Road Prison 36," who was played by Strother Martin, along Paul Newman and George Kennedy in the 1967 classic "Cool Hand Luke".
It seems to draw a certain parallel.


Let me see if I've got this straight: in order to be grounded, I've got to be crazy and I must be crazy to keep flying. But if I ask to be grounded, that means I'm not crazy any more and I have to keep flying

Now that one is from the movie "Catch 22". (Also applicable)

[Albatros6]

as is...

beeing crazy is'nt necessary to fly, but it helps...

hav'niceday...

[gofer]

The basic error is and I quote:
but if you merge to companies it won't work in the same way. And integrating 2/3 of SR and Crossair into SWISS was a merger, if you use common sense.

If anybody would have used common sense, rather than a false sense of national pride and image. LX would have remained, have its weaknesses, and possibly flourished, while SR was liquidated.

Legally and practically it can't be a merger - or seem to be a merger. Why ? Good question. Because if it is a "life after SR" it is also legally liable for all the bad debts and will also go under.

After the American vulture lawyers have finished with South Africa, this is a dead ringer - Because the seniority is based on a merger, it is a merger, and therefore you have to pay off all of the past bad debts... Grow up, and understand the real world of dog eat dog, cat and anything else around.:(

[skypointer]

If your assessment here is as good as that of our mutual friend MS above, there is not much to fear...

But I agree that there is a danger that SWISS will be held liable for SR debts, gofer, but the pilot seniority system is certainly not the reason for this! And I wouldn't fear the american lawyers to much either, as the US have quite some experience with bancrupt airlines operating under chapter 11 and never paying their debts. France and Belgium though might prove to be a bigger problem.

[Albatros6]

well done, studi, wish you all the best riding the "Kranich"... would have done the same if i'vehad the opportunity.

c u (hopefully not head-on at the same level...)

[Alpha Leader]

You won't have to wait for "vulture lawyers" out of the US - there are plenty of leagle eagles waiting to pounce in France!

See you at the weekend - with to-date "virtual" Fa, I promise:)