Italy threatens to ban Ryanair over alleged Covid-19 guideline violations

[Tartiflette Fan]

In today's Guardian ( can't link )

"The Italian civil aviation authority accused the Dublin-based airline of “repeated violation of anti-Covid-19 health measures drafted by the Italian government and in force to protect passengers’ health”.

Continued violation of the rules by the airline could mean it is banned from flying to or from I taly, or the regulator could impose a limit of 50% capacity on Ryanair flights to give passengers more space."

[Duchess_Driver]

Not sure Ryanair would be overly keen to operate a flight if the load was capped at 50%.

[beardy]

So economics, capitalism, profit and cash muscle trump safety and democracy? Isn't that when the dialogue breaks down and less than optimal decisions are made?

[kungfu panda]

Well, last week it was Ryanair threatening to leave Italy. You know in the end that they both need each other.

[Duchess_Driver]

So economics, capitalism, profit and cash muscle trump safety and democracy?

At the end of the day, unfortunately yes. If the Government view this a a PSO then they must be prepared to pay or subsidise it. They cannot expect any commercial (for profit) operation to run a route that doesn’t show a profit and running at a loss is one thing that happens when you limit load factors for safety purposes!

[PilotLZ]

The topic of limiting load factors "for safety" has been done to death by all governing bodies and keeping the middle seat empty was confirmed to be useless on multiple occasions. Nonetheless, some people keep pretending that they know better. What is affordable for the precious Alitalia which has been bleeding cash like crazy for years but is nonetheless in business thanks to the generous government support is unthinkable for a truly commercial airline that actually has to operate on a cash-positive basis in order to survive.

[vikingivesterled]

Nobody has ever proven that keeping the middleseat free do not have an impact, or is useless as you say. However many with ulterior motives argue that if you can't do everything on distancing you should do nothing.
If only charities should take heed of what is needed in pandemic times or other times of crisis and business should go on as ususal, we will all ultimately be doomed.
In times of need it becomes more clear who don't really care. Many airlines do what they can, others do what won't cost them a cent, and even then only if pushed. Ryanair have not shown itself as a leeding light in these times of need. Maybe one day soon they will wake up to that a company of their size can't live on the 1/3 of the population who is careless and will travel no matter what. They ultimately need the others that will only travel with those who they feel are doing their best, and this time they can't be lured by ultralow fares.

[Capn Bloggs]

They cannot expect any commercial (for profit) operation to run a route that doesn’t show a profit and running at a loss is one thing that happens when you limit load factors for safety purposes!
If the regulator has limited your number of seats, then you put the fares up. Simple. There is a pandemic on, you know. And make the middle-seat-vacant rule world-wide, so it's a level playing field for all.

[Bonkey]

I took a Ryanair flight in Italy from GOA to STN last week. It was about 50% full but bizarrely the auto-seat allocation system had put complete strangers next to each other whilst leaving whole rows completely empty :ugh:

In the aisle adjacent to ours (we were 2 people travelling) there were 3 passengers who clearly did not know each other but the 3 rows ahead of them and 2 behind were completely empty. So when the doors closed, 2 of the 3 simply moved seats...but of course the opportunity to distance had already been lost as they had sat directly next to each other for some 15-20 minutes during the boarding process.

A bit of a tangent but my daughter and BF were also on the same flight and on the same booking reference. On a 50% full flight, one was given the seat 26E and the other 11F. However, Ryanair repeatedly and categorically deny they split pax up on the same booking reference (to force pax to pay for specific seats). Difficult to believe them with seats like that on a 50% full flight :rolleyes:

[Flapsupbedsdown]

Capn Bloggs

it's only about someone trying to get LCC out of Italy to favour the Alitalia recovery, if at all Alitalia will not disappear forever.

[INSCRINIUM]

I suppose it could be the case that they allow the seating algorithm to randomly allocate individuals to seats per weight and balance etc. while consciously ignoring common PNRs...

To the pattern-forming human brain, what appears to be malevolent could well just be the (un)intended consequence of that process ;)

[FlyingStone]

And make the middle-seat-vacant rule world-wide, so it's a level playing field for all.

How does that work on regional aircraft with 2-2 seating? Half of the aircraft empty?

[edi_local]

Bonkey

They definitely do split people up. I have flown with my friends EDI-STN on the same booking and I was in row 2 with my mate down in 22. Flight was about 75% full. The return flight had us together, but still one behind the other.

I've also had the opposite. On 2 separate bookings I've had all 3 of us magically assigned a whole row together just be checking in simultaneously on 2 devices.

[modelflyer]

Ryanair always seat me and my wife a long way apart - and it's free! I think Mr O'Leary has missed a trick here because I would actually pay for this to happen.

As a treat for her (and mine, I think) wedding anniversary tomorrow I was going to buy her a seat next to me on next week's flight - but then I thought better of it.

[infrequentflyer789]

He's missed more than one trick along those lines, imagine the potential of parents paying not to be sat near their children (on other airlines I've seen parents in business with their kids back in cattle class). Then think how much would everyone else pay to not be sat next to someone elses screaming kids...

[Noxegon]

It’s not a case of splitting people up — rather it’s just that the seating algorithm has been configured to treat each person as an individual rather than attempting to keep groups together. Random means a 1-in189 chance that you will get any particular seat.

It’d be interesting to research whether there’s a safety implication with this approach — in the event of an emergency will people exit directly or will they attempt to help their loved ones at the other end of the plane?

[vikingivesterled]

Ryanair have long ago admitted they allocate seats randomely to they who don't reserve a certain one, in the hope to sell them one. But they claim it is not deliberately middle seats, it just isn't window or aisle seats. One would however think they would have cop on enough to change this policy in the middel of a pandemic. They have had 6 months to do it now and they have increased their IT with a factor of 10 in the later years adding doens of programmers exactly so they could have more and faster control over their systems. Maybe a litle punishment from the italians is what is needed to light a CoVid19 candle under Ryanair management.

[robocoder]

I was forced to fly twice during the brief period in which Spain/UK travel didn't imply quarantine. In both occasions I was assigned the middle seat of an empty half-row. In one of these cases the whole row was empty. The planes were around 1/3 occupation at best.

I haven't read how Ryanair claims to assign seats but it's clear that within the randomness they have rules. They save window/aisle seats for those paying. When you are assigning middle seats first, obviously couples will end separated. This happened also to me in one of these flights, I was in the front (row 6 IIRC) and my travel partner was in a twenty-odd seat.

I find it ridiculous; given that paying for a seat gives you weeks to pick the seat in advance, in the last 48h the non-paying pax can check in it would be minimum politeness to keep people together. But I guess last minute travelers paying for a seat must be kept happy (or less disgruntled).

Once you're made aware of how your system works, incompetence/shortsightedness/cheapness/whatever does turn into malice. The result is a cold war between you and your customers, or should I say your captive clientele. I would never fly Ryanair if I had an alternative for my means. Splitting couples out of greediness has some offensive quality that crosses a line. They should at least factor in the expected plane occupation, particularly in covid times, to recover some goodwill.

​​​​​​Likewise they could be frank about it and it would be less insulting. I can understand (particularly as an often solo traveler) they saying "we save window/aisle for paying customers" but they have to say "you'll be assigned a random seat, probably a middle seat" as if it were a magical occurrence.

Sorry for the rant. I work in optimization and all this boggles my mind. But then, they have the numbers.

[3Greens]

i think you’re overthinking and assuming way too much.
the onload software will onload and assign seats to ensure the aircraft is in trim and then fine tune it to ensure optimum weight and balance thought the airplane. At least, that’s what BA does, and given it impacts the cost of the flight; I would imagine Ryanair does too.

[DaveReidUK]

I'm sure that's true.

But none of the above would preclude sitting people on the same booking together.

[hans brinker]

robocoder

In case you missed it: Ryanair is a for profit organization. You booked on Ryanair because they were the cheapest, and you were too cheap to pay extra for pre assigned seats. If Ryanair would have given you seats together the next time you definitely wouldn't have paid extra (you proved you were cheap booking them in the first place), so it is definitely in their best interest to put everyone who doesn't pay extra for a seat-assignment in a middle seat as far away from the rest of their group as possible. If you don't like that fly legacy (or Netjets). I remember when the charter company I worked for doubled their profit margin by not handing out free news papers (it went from $1 to $2 per pax......). We all are trying to get the cheapest ride and then complain about the race to the bottom.

[Luke258]

In the end we are still fighting a global pandemic whilst trying to keep air travel numbers up. In that Situation it makes absolutely no sense to let strangers sit together because of some algorithm. Also it makes no sense to keep your distance in the airport just to suddenly give a crap about it once the aircraft reaches the parking position. Been there, saw it. So yes, Ryanair should be made responsible for that.

[robocoder]

hans brinker: I fly what I fly depending on context, and sometimes not even for personal reasons. You bet that if I fly with a company, I feel free to criticize its practices as part of the bargain; and I factor in these practices for whenever I have a choice on the flights I buy.

Back on topic, FR's algorithm is opaque, profit-driven, and (IMHO) offensive for little to no gain in at least some cases (like half-empty planes), yet it has an impact on public health. There are growing concerns about the opaque algorithms that increasingly govern our lives and, being from a computer science background myself, I'm happy these things are scrutinized.

[Flapsupbedsdown]

Luke258

So what, are all other airlines acting differently at the waiting area?

[hec7or]

FR's algorithm is profit-driven

Well blow me down!

[infrequentflyer789]

In the end we are still fighting a global pandemic whilst trying to keep air travel numbers up. In that Situation it makes absolutely no sense to...

Many would say, with some justification, that trying to "keep air travel numbers up" makes absolutely no sense while fighting a global pandemic.
We are not even trying to keep train travel numbers up, or bus travel - quite the contrary with social distancing rules still in place.

FR's algorithm is opaque, profit-driven,

Um, I think FR's entire operation is profit-driven, it's a business. We either nationalise or subsidise airlines (see bus, trains above, noting that in the UK the entire railway industry is now effectively nationalised as a result), or they have to be profit driven to survive. They have to be profit-driven within the rules of course, which goes back to the purpose of the thread - are they breaking the rules or not? Let's see the rule the their seating algorithm is breaking.

[NoelEvans]

Many would say, with some justification, that trying to "keep air travel numbers up" makes absolutely no sense while fighting a global pandemic.
We are not even trying to keep train travel numbers up, or bus travel - quite the contrary with social distancing rules still in place.


From Bloomberg:Real-world data bodes well for flying, too. Australia has been using contact tracing to investigate Covid transmission (https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/covid-19/Pages/flights-archive.aspx#nsw-domestic) on hundreds of flights, and has found that while infected people got on planes, nobody got infected on a plane. Worldwide, there have been a couple of individual transmissions possibly linked to flights (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1477893920303124), but no superspreading-type events.If train or bus travel involved using air-conditioning that was anywhere near as good as in an airliner, then this attempted comparison with air travel might not be the 'chalk and cheese' comparison that it is now.

[Luke258]

Luke258

So what, are all other airlines acting differently at the waiting area?
I am talking about what happens once on Blocks. The waiting area or Gate area is airport responsability. And yes other Airlines are acting differently. They disembark row by row.

[Flapsupbedsdown]

To my knowledge ryanair disembarks by row as well, flown 10 days ago pmo bgy

[PilotLZ]

For those horrified with the prospect of sitting next to a stranger, some Chinese airlines offered (and probably still offer) the opportunity to book the adjacent seats at a reduced cost, maybe 50% of the cost of that seat for a fare-paying passenger. This way, the seat is not "wasted" from a commercial standpoint and the customer gets their much-needed peace of mind.

As for the overall concept of social distancing on aircraft - if it's that important to have social distancing everywhere and regardless of masks, sophisticated air conditioning etc, then why is it that I haven't seen many terrestrial vehicles which have had their capacity chopped by a third or more for the sake of it? Why TfL can run packed tube trains with extremely primitive ventilation and certainly no disinfection on each station, but at the same time Ryanair should not be allowed to fly a full aircraft? Can we speak of a "level playing field" when social distancing rules apply to airlines with a huge cost base, but not to bus operators? Surely owning/leasing and running a coach costs cheaper than owning/leasing and running a 737? This is simply discriminatory. Especially in the light of the fact that aircraft have been proven to be far more COVID-safe than many other closed environments.

[infrequentflyer789]

... why is it that I haven't seen many terrestrial vehicles which have had their capacity chopped by a third or more for the sake of it? ...

Not sure where you have been looking, but buses and trains definitely being restricted in UK, which is where I am and where I know. To quote a local bus service FAQ:

In order to maintain social distancing between our customers, and in accordance with Government guidance, we will only be able to allow 1 in 2 passengers compared to our usual capacity on each bus.

And long distance, from the MegaBus FAQ:

Everyone will be sat in a window seat to allow for social distancing on board.

So that's buses - 50% capacity reduction. Trains (at least mainline) are running seat-reservation only, and with reduced capacity, again to quote a train FAQ (my emphasis):

It is important that you sit in your designated coach and seat number shown on your ticket or reservation confirmation email. All seats are socially distanced from other passengers.

They are clearly running at reduced capacity as well. The trains have all been nationalised, effectively, they are probably all loss-making now. Buses are usually subsidised by local government anyway

My understanding of the tube is that usage is way down, but at peak covid TFL were allegedly running 20-30% of services (for 20% of pax) because they "Had 30% off sick" according to the mayor, who clearly isn't very good at maths. He also isn't very good at telling the whole truth either as it's been revealed since that TFL in fact furloughed thousands of staff at the time, to save money. TFL is broke too, already had to be bailed out by the government, with more needed in autumn, which is going to get interesting because Boris may fancy letting it go bust and taking it off the mayor entirely.

Cars are, anecdotally, running at reduced capacity too - when groups are driving somewhere to meet they are no longer sharing cars across households. That's just anecdotal based on our household experience though.

Bikes and scooters are same capacity as before, but then they are nearly all single-seat anyway.

What other terrestrial vehicles are there?

[Outofthefray]

Respectfully, not sure where you have been looking either Infrequent ?
I flew EJ from France to UK 2 weeks ago on a flight that was 50% full. I return on Friday on one which (currently) looks much less booked. Many cancelled after the 14th August rule-change, so that’s no surprise. Yesterday we boarded a Park n Ride BUS in Devon which was 100% fully seated. No doubt there is a variation between an operator's declarations and what is actually happening.

Replacing strategic and logical planning with panicky reactive legislation is what is making it hard for everyone.

I hope the airlines survive...

[robocoder]

Um, I think FR's entire operation is profit-driven, it's a business. We either nationalise or subsidise airlines (see bus, trains above, noting that in the UK the entire railway industry is now effectively nationalised as a result), or they have to be profit driven to survive. They have to be profit-driven within the rules of course, which goes back to the purpose of the thread - are they breaking the rules or not? Let's see the rule the their seating algorithm is breaking.

Well, yes, not disagreeing about that. When I jumped in it was more because I see a lost opportunity for FR [to regain some goodwill, if not to squeeze even more money from us] in this matter of seating, even if everything is already done within the legality.

[infrequentflyer789]

Respectfully, not sure where you have been looking either Infrequent ?

I quoted directly from internet pages on official travel operator internet sites, that is where I have been looking.

I haven't personally left the house for over 5 months, I chose to "shield" some weeks before the doctors actually advised me that I was clinically extremely vulnerable, a decision that quite possibly saved my life, as my wife (in a high risk occupation) then brought it home, we think (no testing available at that time unless hospitalised). Because I was isolated from the rest of the family, I didn't get it, so I'm still here. I am not about to stop shielding either, despite the government "pausing" it, they did so on the bases that cases were going down on the very same day Boris stood up and said "we can't ignore the evidence that cases are going up". I'll trust my own assessment over one that contradicts the facts.

Anyway, the point is that various terrestrial transport operators are clearly stating that they are operating at reduced capacity due to regulations / guidelines, so aviation is not being singled out or treated differently. The fact that some operators may be ignoring the rules or guidelines and running full doesn't mean that those rules and guidelines don't exist. I'm sure there are Ryanairs on road and rail too (TFL...).

[Luke258]

Many would say, with some justification, that trying to "keep air travel numbers up" makes absolutely no sense while fighting a global pandemic.
We are not even trying to keep train travel numbers up, or bus travel - quite the contrary with social distancing rules still in place.

Well I am not the one that took that decision. But in order to keep the aircraft flying and bringing people from a to b, there needs to be certain restraints. Then I am wondering what's more important. The 25min turn around or Social distancing? I have flown Ryanair lately and no such thing as disembarking row by row has been done. Also people brought on Board the carry ons. So for the Sake of everyone, it would be nice if Ryanair would change its money making scheme temporarily.

[Flapsupbedsdown]

your statement is incorrect or your'e not properly informed on the Italian rules ( that changes very rapidly), cause carry on are allowed. Flown 10 days ago within italy and all of the rules complied with, including disembarking by row; but as we all know, not all passengers in all flights in all airlines are so excited in following rules.

[Momoe]

Having travelled both easyJet and Ryanair for some years, easyJet win hands down. Very recently did Stn-Cag, checked in online, allocated a-f for out and return for a party of 6.
Stairs at front and rear both times, Ryanair is the lowest cost carrier and it shows.
2-3 hour flights are generally single aisle anyway; Having travelled business class to Paris with BA pre-covid, all they did was put a tray in the middle seat. Seat pitch was unchanged, worth the extra, hell no, but I wasn't paying.

[Momoe]

Disembarking by row is an absolute godsend, reduces the rush to get your (oversized) 'hand' luggage.
Very calm and actually more efficient IMO, what would help is having staff directing passengers to the most appropriate door when boarding, folks with tickets for row 20 should be using rear doors, not walking through from 1 to 20

[a_q]

He's missed more than one trick along those lines, imagine the potential of parents paying not to be sat near their children (on other airlines I've seen parents in business with their kids back in cattle class). Then think how much would everyone else pay to not be sat next to someone elses screaming kids...

That's actually how I used to do it (kids grown up now) but I had them sit together next to a stranger, as they would then behave themselves. They would only kick off when sat in a family group with us.