Conflict between aircraft and ships

[Ancient-Mariner]

As a retired MN Officer, I subscribe to Chirp Maritime. In Issue 50 June 2020, on page 5 https://www.chirpmaritime.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/MFB-59-June-2020.pdf there is an article about an inbound aircraft observing a very large cruise vessel which would cross the short final of Runway 35. I have not seen any comments on here, so far. As stated, some ships have an air draft of up to 72 metres/236 feet.

[safetypee]

Had such an encounter at Castries (St Lucia) involving a very large cruise liner.

The evolving pace of the event was sufficiently slow to debate if steam should give way to sail - aircraft depending on air, or if the minimum miss distance constituted a notfied approach hazard.

Increasingly obvious that the situation would be a DH, lateral and vertical, took the opportunity to view the ship and a tour of the harbour from a safe height.

As I recall, one of the Amsterdam runways required a change of landing minima if a barge was reported on the canal within the approach lights.

[parkfell]

Sumburgh 09/27 has a bay on the western side where vessels operate, and the TODA precludes the bay, as there is no control over the boats. There is also a road on the western airfield boundary which gets closed with barriers when aircraft movements are about to occur.

Londonderry aka The City of Derry Airport, has a railway line within a stones throw of the threshold runway 26. Back in 2005, the aircraft give way to train movements by holding.
The cunning plan to circumvent this annoyance for turbo props was to land on the shorter crossed runway, conditions & performance permitting.

[jmmoric]

Many seaside airports have stated in the AIP that large ships may be encountered close to the airport, and the information would probably be given via the tower as well, if it is deemed relevant.

[wiggy]

As a retired MN Officer, I subscribe to Chirp Maritime. In Issue 50 June 2020, on page 5 https://www.chirpmaritime.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/MFB-59-June-2020.pdf there is an article about an inbound aircraft observing a very large cruise vessel which would cross the short final of Runway 35. I have not seen any comments on here, so far. As stated, some ships have an air draft of up to 72 metres/236 feet.
Clive

Singapore is a place where it can be an an issue for departures, especially for the heavies loaded up to near max weight.

Departing off 02left or 02 centre your performance calculation/considerations have to take into account whether or not there are any "big" ships crossing the shipping channel to the north of the runway.

ATC/ATIS give details of any maritime traffic "in play" and it is possible you may have to delay your departure until the ship gets out of the way if your performance is such that you won't clear a "big ship" by the required margin.

Some airports (e.g. Boston-Logan) also have published restrictions on some approaches/changes to approach minima if there are "tall vessels" reported in the approach area.

[Shot Nancy]

All ships are targets.

[ETOPS]

Boston Mass. has an occasional message on the ATIS broadcast “masts in the channel “
Requires increased minima...

[Pugilistic Animus]

IIRC Old Smokey wrote about how he deals with ships in the TODA... I've been trying to find it but I can't right now.... Although I maybe wrong I think it was him

[SMT Member]

Many moons ago when doing the application part of a 9-month dispatchers course, was surprised to find a take-off restriction (obstruction) in an exercise when departing CPH 04R with a B767. To wit, there's nothing but 15 NM of water separating Denmark from Sweden. The instructor knew what was coming, and went to great lengths explaining how obstacles does not only come in form of of fixed buildings and geography, but also moveable objects. In this particular case it was the USSR school ship "Kruzenshtern", which had quite a magnificent air draft from her 3 masts - just over 50 meters if memory serves me right.

For the exercise in question this restriction would come into play, resulting in a payload reduction to meet the SEO performance criteria. A clever sod in the class, however, submitted a solution with no payload reduction. When quizzed by the instructor, he said a simulated call had been made to the tower, asking them to have a look-see if the ship was indeed anywhere near. Since it wasn't, he surmised the restriction was not valid and proceeded accordingly. His solution was accepted and commended, in an effort to make the rest of us consider "thinking outside the box" and learn a valuable lesson.

[parkfell]

Hmmm...Let me see Baldrick....a plan so cunning you could pin a tail on it and call it Ryanair?

Ryanair never took advantage of the short runway (performance?) as far as I know, and had to HOLD from time to time much to their frustration.
Loganair certainly did use the cross runway when the Saab operated into LDY.

[compressor stall]

At one port I’ve been to a fair bit, we have runway performance with Ship and No Ship to choose from.

[Less Hair]

Finkenwerder Tower (Airbus factory Hamburg) has it's own Elbe river radar view to monitor maritime vessels next door that might interfere with air traffic.
https://images.app.goo.gl/zhyAyuFC2wa6mxXL7

[Level bust]

We were coming out of Hamburg in November 2018 on The Queen Mary 2 when the captain said there would be a delay leaving due to an aircraft inbound to Finkenwerder.

[Herod]

All ships are targets.

There's the solution. Arm all airliners with torpedoes. ;)

[izod tester]

In 1980 a Red Arrow Hawk piloted by Steve Johnson hit a yacht mast during a display at Brighton. Steve ejected with no injuries. The yacht had ignored a sailing ban during the display.

[ATC Watcher]

In Singapore ATC Ops room there is a position with a maritime radar and a height measuring devise checking the exact height of ships entering the harbor.( as some are often higher than what their AIS signature is saying) Sequencing ships with Approaches is done quite seriously.

[sitigeltfel]

https://youtu.be/gG3bU5DCi_A

[RatherBeFlying]

Twin Otter hit iceberg on departure (https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19941124-2)

[Ancient-Mariner]

Londonderry aka The City of Derry Airport, has a railway line within a stones throw of the threshold runway 26.
Hawarden/EGNR has the London - Holyhead railway line close to the then 23 threshold (now 22). One instructor I flew with used to get miffed because the other flying school using Hawarden used to fly circuits that were almost cross country. This made spacing for circuits difficult. I remember one occasion as the other guy was now on a low long final, him clicking the mic button with the free advice, "look left and right for trains..."

[Lonewolf_50]

Ancient-Mariner:
1991 America's Cup competition off the coast of San Diego, CA.
There was a significantly large no fly and no lower than 1000' zone that obstructed our normal VFR exit and entry routes past Point Loma.
The area was just off the coast, adjacent to and overlapping the ATA for NAS North Island.
We were told that the restrictions were to prevent our rotor wash from disturbing the boats / regatta which were owned and operated by really rich people who had prevailed upon the FAA and Naval authorities to not risk their race being influenced by rotary wing aircraft operations.
Memory is foggy on this, but I seem to recall that the lighter (Jet Ranger) news helicopters also had a restriction that was either the same as ours or maybe a little bit lower. There was a lot of news chopper activity covering the regatta.

[Beamr]

There's the solution. Arm all airliners with torpedoes. ;)
would be more interesting for everyone from pilots to pax and spectators to arm them with dive brakes and bomb sights :E

[ShyTorque]

Many years ago when we still had an Air Force worth talking about we were returning to base across the North Sea, routing from Manston to coast in in the Netherlands. Having foolishly been suckered in by the Met man’s reasonable forecast, we found ourselves being forced down lower and lower by freezing cloud and snow, in which our helicopter was prohibited from flying. About two thirds of the way across we were at less than 100’ in very poor visibility when a very large ship loomed out of the mist very close ahead. It was much taller than our transit height. We missed it but not by much. I reckon he should have given way but we broke hard right to avoid anyway. We learned about flying AND shipping from that.

[172driver]

Aveiro / LPAV in Portugal has a shipping channel right in front of the rwy 35 threshold. Landed there once (many years ago) and sure enough - a container ship was about to cross in front of us. Extended the downwind a bit but the ship's wake was noticeable on short final. Has to be said, though, that I was flying a Cessna.

[tdracer]

Ancient-Mariner:
1991 America's Cup competition off the coast of San Diego, CA.
There was a significantly large no fly and no lower than 1000' zone that obstructed our normal VFR exit and entry routes past Point Loma.
The area was just off the coast, adjacent to and overlapping the ATA for NAS North Island.
We were told that the restrictions were to prevent our rotor wash from disturbing the boats / regatta which were owned and operated by really rich people who had prevailed upon the FAA and Naval authorities to not risk their race being influenced by rotary wing aircraft operations.
Memory is foggy on this, but I seem to recall that the lighter (Jet Ranger) news helicopters also had a restriction that was either the same as ours or maybe a little bit lower. There was a lot of news chopper activity covering the regatta.

Lonewolf - it's not just boats and rich people. For my high power rocketry, we require clear airspace above us to a significant altitude. Last weekend we had a launch in central Oregon - we had a 'standing' waiver to 25k (~20,800 AGL), with 'windows' to 40k. With large rockets readily capable of flights over 30k (and no directional control after the button is pushed), it's important to keep the airspace clear to prevent a collision between an aircraft and a rocket (based on what a bird can do, I don't want to even imagine the damage a 50 or 100 pound rocket could do in a high speed collision).
That being said, we still monitor for encroaching aircraft before launching - last weekend we had at least four small aircraft encroach on our airspace, forcing a temporary halt to operations. Apparently some pilots think NOTAM means "there is something interesting going on, let's go take a look". And lest you think it's only GA pilots that don't follow the NOTAM, a few years back it was a 747-8 headed south (presumably headed to the Boeing facility in Texas) at maybe 10k (certainly lower than our 25k waiver) - it was low enough that I could readily identify that it was a definitely a 747-8, not a different model :sad:

[wiggy]

In Singapore ATC Ops room there is a position with a maritime radar and a height measuring devise checking the exact height of ships entering the harbor.( as some are often higher than what their AIS signature is saying) Sequencing ships with Approaches is done quite seriously.


Well, well, wondered how they did that, thanks for the detail - everyday is a school day, ....

[OffshoreSLF]

From another perspective -
I was in the Merchant Navy in the early 1970's, and on one occasion we were sailing past Copenhagen north bound. This was an old ship, which still had 2 100ft masts with deck floodlights about three-quarters of the way up. As the ship electrician, I'd been hoisted up in a bosun's chair to repair one of these lights. It was a lovely day, and I had a great view from up there. Suddenly I saw a rather large aircraft approaching at what appeared to me to be a VERY low level. As it got closer and bigger, with wheels and everything else hanging out, I thought to myself "This is going to be ******* close". The aircraft passed directly over my head, and there was at least a couple of hundred feet of clearance over the mast. Definitely a ar$e twitching moment though!

[terrain safe]

Many years ago there was an exercise occurring around the north of Scotland with lots of NATO navies taking part. Sumburgh was landing on 27 and weather was less than optimal visibility wise. All of a sudden a primary target appeared on a 5 mile final moving very slowly and then speeding off to the north followed by several more. The landing ATP was given traffic to which he reported in sight and happy to continue visually. Asked what it was and the reply was "An aircraft carrier launching Harriers!". Turned out it was a Spanish carrier hiding by the Shetland mainland and sneaking aircraft off without being seen. As this was in The Sumburgh CTZ a phone call was made to the man at the ministry and the ship moved off.

[Gulf Julliet Papa]

Ryanair never took advantage of the short runway (performance?) as far as I know, and had to HOLD from time to time much to their frustration.
Loganair certainly did use the cross runway when the Saab operated into LDY.

Apart from the length, Ryanair never took advantage of the short runway because it is closed and disused, and has been for many many years. Trains hold for arriving flights, departing flights hold for trains. On a departing flight if you had to hold for a train it only added 2-3 mins max. The Derry - Belfast railway line only has an hourly service in each direction, and that is a very recent upgrade (last few years?), I believe it used to be every other hour before. On the basis that Pre-COVID there was barely 5 daily flights to LDY total, this was hardly ever an issue

[kit344]

Hawarden/EGNR has the London - Holyhead railway line close to the then 23 threshold (now 22). One instructor I flew with used to get miffed because the other flying school using Hawarden used to fly circuits that were almost cross country. This made spacing for circuits difficult. I remember one occasion as the other guy was now on a low long final, him clicking the mic button with the free advice, "look left and right for trains..."

RAF Cosford museum has had a few final flights that needed careful coordination with the railway timetable. https://www.pprune.org/questions/144882-biggest-ac-smallest-airfield-5.html
Among the aircraft that have made one way trips are VC10, B707, and Vulcan.

Some of the aircraft at Duxford museum were flown in shortly before the runway was shortened when the M11 was completed.

There was also the Red Arrow that crashed into a 44 foot yacht mast near Brighton https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/55501

[Pilot DAR]

Toronto City (Island) Airport has the Toronto Harbour on the approach path to runway 26, the most commonly used runway. In years past, it was common to have to spot and dodge leisure sailboat masts off the end of the runway. I've adjusted my approach a few times for these. Since Porter Airlines started operating , a boat exclusion zone is bouyed off the approach end of 26. Google Earth tells me that the exclusion zone extends 1380 feet back from the threshold to 26, and this seems to do the trick. Though large, lake freighters also use the harbour, they seem to stay only on the east end, a few miles from the airport, so it's only the recreational boaters which have the potential to cause conflict - though recreational boaters can also be the most unaware too!

I recall while on a family cruise of the Caribbean, we spent a day in San Juan. The maneuvering area for cruise ships is quite close to the approach end of runway 09. I recall having a really close view of a landing Cessna Caravan!

[Dan Winterland]

Hong Kong has protected zones at the each end of the airport. The zones vary depending on the height of the boat.

[OldLurker]

Back in the day, I flew once or twice into Le Touquet in northern France where they had a light rall line crossing the runway and apron. AFAIR it was built for passengers of Silver City Airways flying from Lympne (long defunct).
Railway Herald :: Imaging Centre :: at Le Touquet airport (http://www.railwayherald.com/imagingcentre/view/138538/WV)

[Lancman]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/864x396/ballykelly_train_8a1fd244d5abd23287f8a6d75c4c0c788a46035b.jp g
Trains had the right-of-way across the runway at Ballykelly.

[the_stranger]

Had to do a go around at Aruba due to a cruiseship crossing finals.finals.
It's not uncommon on those islands.

[FullWings]

Was going into BOS some years ago, lots of vectoring around the airfield, eventually asked if there was a problem as we were fast approaching commit time. Reply came back that there was shipping in the channel so this was delaying action. Thin layer of 8/8 Sc at ~1,000’, clear above.

After the vectors, we broke cloud at around 900’ for 04R to see a huge ship passing by the threshold, which were definitely on a collision course for. ATC instructed a GA, repositioned for another go. I don’t think I could have arranged that if I tried, we had a good laugh about it...

[CaptainSAC]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1300x540/gibraltar_airport_runway_and_la_linea_de_la_concepcion_in_sp ain_southern_j2pgn0_ef57743d8f18819df31f45f0e00182aa1faa4459 .jpg
Gibraltar Airport looking at the West end
We usually "park "in lower bottom of the shot where you can see the blue hulled yacht docked stern to, in the case above we would have to come around the cruse ship and the dredger that is usually moored or working there which sometimes brings us further out towards the end of the runway. The port pilots always check with the control tower if their are any arrivals and departures, and plenty of times we have to wait for our "slot" so we can manouver into the marina and berth. Most times we have to turn at the end of the runway, and then back down the channel as it is very shallow and difficult to turn her round and then go stern to. If you are wondering what I am talking about, this was "her"....

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1342/_75m_yacht_ebony_shine_6401_104_62fa0cd1f9d0dffc2f10e5343e50 cb857302a4a6.jpg

[10 DME ARC]

I like a few of the people above spent my first NATS posting in Sumburgh late 80's early 90's and had a few aircraft/ship conflicts landing 27 or heli 24 and ships going in/out Grutness! One memorable one was during a half mile SRA to 27 with a BAF VC8 in really crap weather at the end of my spiel the pilot announced he had just gone around due large ship between him and the runway! We sent a fireman out to investigate and found a large three masted schooner docking in Grutness! Aviation and the sea were very close in the shetlands what with 'submarine watch' and rescue helicopter Oscar Charlie! Never mind the Russian Destroyer we found sheltering off Sumburgh head one morning as it got light! Happy days......

[DaveReidUK]

Trains had the right-of-way across the runway at Ballykelly.

Ballykelly is reputed to be the only aerodrome in the world where there has been an instance of a cow being killed on the runway by a train.

[olddog]

Just beat me to it Lancman! Apparently, A Shackleton called turning finals and was told by ATC to "Go Around - steam roller on the runway!
Shackleton replies "Going Around. Whats a steam roller doing on the runway?"
ATC "Rolling!"

[Herod]

Dave. You just beat me replying ref Ballykelly. I believe it caused a go-around as well.

[terrain safe]

olddog Of course the steam roller was going faster than the Shack...

[Four Turbo]

Reminds me of being a young lad piloting a Canberra low level off the Dutch coast. Bad weather forcing us down to avoid controlled airspace above. Asked nav to advise about obstacles ahead. 'Sea for 200 miles'. This was before oil rigs - but the lighthouse that passed close by scared me!

[xetroV]

Had to do a go around at Aruba due to a cruiseship crossing finals.finals.
It's not uncommon on those islands.https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x699/image_491654506f7a61537353efff426297f4c5cd475a.jpeg
AUA back in the days... Probably still a common sight today.

[pax britanica]

AS Wiggy points out Singapore is a good example with . I was on a BA74 one evening returning to UK and Captain came on to explain that while there was no aircraft in front of us he was going to have to hold position for a few minutes until a large slip passed the far end of the runway.. Presumably while it is passing there is no longer a 'clearway?' a the end of the runway but an obstacle which has performance compliance issues and of course going non stop and full SIN-LHR he was going to need all the concrete available