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Conflict between aircraft and ships

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Conflict between aircraft and ships

Old 1st Jul 2020, 09:21
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Conflict between aircraft and ships

As a retired MN Officer, I subscribe to Chirp Maritime. In Issue 50 June 2020, on page 5 https://www.chirpmaritime.org/wp-con...-June-2020.pdf there is an article about an inbound aircraft observing a very large cruise vessel which would cross the short final of Runway 35. I have not seen any comments on here, so far. As stated, some ships have an air draft of up to 72 metres/236 feet.
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Old 1st Jul 2020, 09:42
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Had such an encounter at Castries (St Lucia) involving a very large cruise liner.

The evolving pace of the event was sufficiently slow to debate if steam should give way to sail - aircraft depending on air, or if the minimum miss distance constituted a notfied approach hazard.

Increasingly obvious that the situation would be a DH, lateral and vertical, took the opportunity to view the ship and a tour of the harbour from a safe height.

As I recall, one of the Amsterdam runways required a change of landing minima if a barge was reported on the canal within the approach lights.
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Old 1st Jul 2020, 09:43
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de minimus non curat lex
 
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Sumburgh 09/27 has a bay on the western side where vessels operate, and the TODA precludes the bay, as there is no control over the boats. There is also a road on the western airfield boundary which gets closed with barriers when aircraft movements are about to occur.

Londonderry aka The City of Derry Airport, has a railway line within a stones throw of the threshold runway 26. Back in 2005, the aircraft give way to train movements by holding.
The cunning plan to circumvent this annoyance for turbo props was to land on the shorter crossed runway, conditions & performance permitting.

Last edited by parkfell; 2nd Jul 2020 at 10:45. Reason: Time relevance
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Old 1st Jul 2020, 09:49
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Many seaside airports have stated in the AIP that large ships may be encountered close to the airport, and the information would probably be given via the tower as well, if it is deemed relevant.
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Old 1st Jul 2020, 10:08
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Originally Posted by Ancient-Mariner View Post
As a retired MN Officer, I subscribe to Chirp Maritime. In Issue 50 June 2020, on page 5 https://www.chirpmaritime.org/wp-con...-June-2020.pdf there is an article about an inbound aircraft observing a very large cruise vessel which would cross the short final of Runway 35. I have not seen any comments on here, so far. As stated, some ships have an air draft of up to 72 metres/236 feet.
Clive
Singapore is a place where it can be an an issue for departures, especially for the heavies loaded up to near max weight.

Departing off 02left or 02 centre your performance calculation/considerations have to take into account whether or not there are any "big" ships crossing the shipping channel to the north of the runway.

ATC/ATIS give details of any maritime traffic "in play" and it is possible you may have to delay your departure until the ship gets out of the way if your performance is such that you won't clear a "big ship" by the required margin.

Some airports (e.g. Boston-Logan) also have published restrictions on some approaches/changes to approach minima if there are "tall vessels" reported in the approach area.


Last edited by wiggy; 1st Jul 2020 at 10:20.
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Old 1st Jul 2020, 10:23
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All ships are targets.
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Old 1st Jul 2020, 10:43
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Boston Mass. has an occasional message on the ATIS broadcast “masts in the channel “
Requires increased minima...
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Old 1st Jul 2020, 10:48
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IIRC Old Smokey wrote about how he deals with ships in the TODA... I've been trying to find it but I can't right now.... Although I maybe wrong I think it was him
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Old 1st Jul 2020, 10:51
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Originally Posted by parkfell View Post
Londonderry aka The City of Derry Airport, has a railway line within a stones throw of the threshold runway 26. The aircraft give way to train movements by holding.The cunning plan to circumvent this annoyance is to land on the shorter crossed runway, conditions & performance permitting.
Hmmm...Let me see Baldrick....a plan so cunning you could pin a tail on it and call it Ryanair?


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Old 1st Jul 2020, 11:03
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Many moons ago when doing the application part of a 9-month dispatchers course, was surprised to find a take-off restriction (obstruction) in an exercise when departing CPH 04R with a B767. To wit, there's nothing but 15 NM of water separating Denmark from Sweden. The instructor knew what was coming, and went to great lengths explaining how obstacles does not only come in form of of fixed buildings and geography, but also moveable objects. In this particular case it was the USSR school ship "Kruzenshtern", which had quite a magnificent air draft from her 3 masts - just over 50 meters if memory serves me right.

For the exercise in question this restriction would come into play, resulting in a payload reduction to meet the SEO performance criteria. A clever sod in the class, however, submitted a solution with no payload reduction. When quizzed by the instructor, he said a simulated call had been made to the tower, asking them to have a look-see if the ship was indeed anywhere near. Since it wasn't, he surmised the restriction was not valid and proceeded accordingly. His solution was accepted and commended, in an effort to make the rest of us consider "thinking outside the box" and learn a valuable lesson.
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Old 1st Jul 2020, 11:10
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de minimus non curat lex
 
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Originally Posted by Lord Farringdon View Post
Hmmm...Let me see Baldrick....a plan so cunning you could pin a tail on it and call it Ryanair?
Ryanair never took advantage of the short runway (performance?) as far as I know, and had to HOLD from time to time much to their frustration.
Loganair certainly did use the cross runway when the Saab operated into LDY.
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Old 1st Jul 2020, 12:14
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At one port I’ve been to a fair bit, we have runway performance with Ship and No Ship to choose from.
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Old 1st Jul 2020, 12:17
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Finkenwerder Tower (Airbus factory Hamburg) has it's own Elbe river radar view to monitor maritime vessels next door that might interfere with air traffic.
https://images.app.goo.gl/zhyAyuFC2wa6mxXL7
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Old 1st Jul 2020, 12:21
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We were coming out of Hamburg in November 2018 on The Queen Mary 2 when the captain said there would be a delay leaving due to an aircraft inbound to Finkenwerder.
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Old 1st Jul 2020, 12:47
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All ships are targets.
There's the solution. Arm all airliners with torpedoes.
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Old 1st Jul 2020, 13:28
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In 1980 a Red Arrow Hawk piloted by Steve Johnson hit a yacht mast during a display at Brighton. Steve ejected with no injuries. The yacht had ignored a sailing ban during the display.
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Old 1st Jul 2020, 14:21
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In Singapore ATC Ops room there is a position with a maritime radar and a height measuring devise checking the exact height of ships entering the harbor.( as some are often higher than what their AIS signature is saying) Sequencing ships with Approaches is done quite seriously.
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Old 1st Jul 2020, 14:55
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Old 1st Jul 2020, 15:10
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Twin Otter hit iceberg on departure
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Old 1st Jul 2020, 15:32
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Originally Posted by parkfell View Post
Londonderry aka The City of Derry Airport, has a railway line within a stones throw of the threshold runway 26.
Hawarden/EGNR has the London - Holyhead railway line close to the then 23 threshold (now 22). One instructor I flew with used to get miffed because the other flying school using Hawarden used to fly circuits that were almost cross country. This made spacing for circuits difficult. I remember one occasion as the other guy was now on a low long final, him clicking the mic button with the free advice, "look left and right for trains..."

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