40% of Pakistani pilots hold fake flying licenses: Aviation Minister

[Vaero]

Pakistani Aviation Minister Ghulam Sarwar Khan broke the shocking news that around 40% of Pilots in Pakistan have fake pilot licenses.The startling news about the ‘fake’ Pilots was released amid the presentation of the provisional inquiry report in the National Assembly of Pakistan about the recent Pakistan International Airline (PK) crash near Karachi. There are currently 860 active Pilots in Pakistan. This includes PIA, Serene Air (ER), and Air Blue (PA). Mr. Khan stated that “The inquiry which was initiated in February 2019 showed that 262 Pilots did not take the exam themselves” and that they had asked someone else to sit the exam on their behalf.

He also said that they have found out during the investigation that Pilots with ‘fake’ licenses did not even have proper flying experience. The 40% of ‘fake’ pilots also include hundreds who are not currently active. It was further revealed that pilots were also appointed on a “political basis” and that “Merit was ignored while appointing Pilots.” It was also claimed that degrees of at least four PIA Pilots had been found to be fake, according to Pakistan media. The Aviation Minister said that an inquiry had been initiated in this regard and that show-cause notices have been issued to 54 Pilots. It was claimed that some of these Pilots have challenged these notices in court.

So far, at least nine pilots have confessed to holding fake degrees.


Source: https://airwaysmag.com/industry/pakistan-fake-pilot-licenses/
This might not come as a shock to most but 40% is way more than anticipated.

[PilotLZ]

The consequences of such a revelation can easily put the kibosh on any flights by Pakistani airlines into a number of countries. Not to mention insurance premiums going through the roof.

[esscee]

Probably not just in Pakistan either, fair bet that a few other countries have similar.

[Blacksheep]

I used to work with a Pakistani man who told me that one of his relatives had moved to UK using his brother's passport and degree certificate and was living and working in UK as a civil engineer despite never having graduated. Is there any way to combat such things? I doubt it.

[Dave Gittins]

When I was in Doha constructing Hamad Airport, there were a lot of tipper truck drivers on site. Because of their terrible safety record, one day our chief "elf' decided to do a spot check on driving licenses and found them all carrying photocopies of the same one.

Would it surprise anybody that it was in the name of Singh

[Sholayo]

Hehe, I find it hilarious in the context of recent surge of complaints in this forum that more often than not there is notion of "cultural factors" when accidents occurs where pilot error was a root cause.
Here you go in own words of Pakistani minister.

PS
This is the best part of CNN coverage:
"PIA has grounded all its pilots who hold fake licenses, effective immediately."
Sounds like they knew about the issue and apparently even had a list but until yesterday took no action.

[Pilot DAR]

Hey posters, I know that with this story, it'll be difficult, but please comment the news story, and the facts, while avoiding general culture or racist comments, okay? Regardless of feelings some posters may have, we do have to try to stay within the PPRuNe rules.

Thanks in advance for your effort to reduce modding work!

[parkfell]

The Inquiry began in February 2019 and has identified 262 pilots who had someone else to sit the exams.
I assume this is referring to the written exams? “Proper” flying experience was also lacking.
And yet only 54 individuals have been issued with “show-cause notices”.
40% (344) of the 860 pilots hold ‘fake’ licences many of which are not currently flying.

This is an astonishing situation and brings the integrity of the whole system into question.


The UK has not been immune from such activity albeit on a much smaller scale.
The UK CAA successfully prosecuted an individual in 2001 who had done a huge amount of “Parker pen” flying for UK CAA licence issue.
9 months suspended sentence & £4000 costs at Hove Crown Court.
His licence was revoked.
Clock set to ZERO with all previous experience null and void.

Swearing an affidavit to confirm hours flown should your logbook go “missing” is no longer accepted in isolation by the CAA.
[ Moral of the story ~ keep your logbook at home in a book shelf. A burglar is hardly likely to steal it, whereas a car broken into for a flight bag......?]
Clearly this was open to abuse by some individuals without integrity and honesty.

Then there was a psychiatric who faked medical qualifications in the UK (1995) from New Zealand.
A fraud trial in 2018 brought matters to light.
Needless to say verification procedures are now far more water tight.

[Seat4A]

Just saw this on AP:

Pakistan to ground 150 pilots for cheating to get licenses

June 25, 2020 - By MUNIR AHMED 40 minutes ago

Quote:

ISLAMABAD (AP) — Pakistan’s state-run airline said Thursday it will ground 150 pilots, accusing them of obtaining licenses by having others take exams for them after a probe into last month’s crash that killed 97 people in Karachi.

Article:

https://apnews.com/3b9899d6f9d674fdb7b2debb1b7dbdf7?utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow

[B Fraser]

Are we allowed to refer to news articles published in the region ? This one is a real eye opener.

https://zeenews.india.com/blog/danger-lurking-in-the-skies_269.html

[White Knight]

while avoiding general culture or racist comments, okay?

But the culture has a lot to do with the issue of fake licences! Just sayin'.......... Of course, they can be also be found in many different cultures in many different countries. BUT 150 or so at the flag carrier???? No point hiding under a rock for fear of offending people. Killing over a hundred in the PIA accident is the really offensive thing!!

[Lonewolf_50]

... but please comment the news story, and the facts, while avoiding general culture or racist comments, okay? Regardless of feelings some posters may have, we do have to try to stay within the PPRuNe rules. Corporate culture - or organizational culture - is often informed by the meta culture (the overarching cultural context). Attitudes and behaviors do not occur in a vacuum. This can all be discussed professionally, to be sure, rather than like a bunch of mates in the pub with a few pints in them. Beyond that, most cultures are slow to change, though the Korean example at their flag carrier shows that where there is a will, there is a way.
I recall there being some internal cultural transition problems in the Navy culture I flew in (early 80's) as the hard CRM lessons that had been learned in the airlines were being folded into our multi-pilot crew training. In time, it became the norm, not 'something new.' But it didn't happen overnight.

[lomapaseo]

We seem to be stuck on a specific airline in the thread title rather than the more general concern of the spread of fake credentials.

I'm not sure if this is a PIA crash investigation thread or a more general concern across all airlines.

As a passenger I can avoid a specific airline until the issue is under correction but general condemnation confuses me.

[4runner]

India isn’t going to be much better. A central Florida flight school was renting out cessnas and warriors to Indian nationals who held pilots licenses. They were time building. 3 chaps would take off together in the same plane and all log solo PIC. They were discovered when they all went to another flight school to do their Multi and someone made the observation that they all had same flights, same day, same destination, same tail number.

[esscee]

People in that region want "something without putting the effort in" to achieve it. Be interesting if they go checking engineer exams/licences as well.

[Airbubba]

Probably not just in Pakistan either, fair bet that a few other countries have similar.

From the Washington Post:

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1184x843/parminder_d4b5e3e3e56abb636db142955ff9d982db4accaa.jpg


Indian arrests reveal corruption in granting of pilot licenses

By Rama Lakshmi (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/people/rama-lakshmi/)

April 17, 2011

NEW DELHI — An Indian pilot made news here in January when she landed an Airbus 320 passenger plane on its nose wheel. Investigators soon discovered several alarming things: Parminder Kaur Gulati (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Woman-pilot-faked-papers-for-licence-after-failing-test-7-times/articleshow/7583939.cms) had not only made that dangerous mistake before, she also had earned her senior pilot’s license through fake grades.

Worse still, she had plenty of company.

A government-ordered investigation has exposed a nationwide network of flight schools, aviation officials and others routinely forging grade sheets, fudging logbooks and accepting bribes. The revelation that some unqualified aspirants have made it into the cockpit is just one of a string of scandals that have roiled India (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/world/indias_corruption_scandals_spawn_citizen_protest/2011/04/06/AFNKGEoC_story.html) in the past six months, but it is among the most serious, potentially endangering the lives of thousands.

“It is worrying that people could get away with it for so long,” said E.K. Bharat Bhushan, India’s director general of civil aviation, showing files of fraudulent grade sheets. “These look so real. It really shakes you.”

Bhushan said he would not describe India’s skies as unsafe, noting, “These are only a handful of our 8,000 certified pilots.” Still, 29 pilots — including Gulati — have lost their licenses and 14 people have been arrested in the wake of the January incident, as officials comb through files from the past five years, scrutinizing the grades of more than 1,700 pilots and auditing 40 flight schools.

India’s airline industry expanded rapidly during that period. From 2009 to 2010 alone, passenger traffic grew by 19 percent. There were more than 51 million domestic passengers last year, and many of them used the numerous low-fare airlines that have sprung up.

The boom also triggered a rush among India’s youths for lucrative jobs as pilots.

“So many flying schools opened in the boom time,” Bhushan said. “There was a lot of competition, but hardly any oversight.”

To graduate from an Indian aviation school, students must log 200 hours of flying time, then pass four written tests. That qualifies them for a commercial pilot’s license, which allows them to work as a co-pilot. To take command of an aircraft, they have to fly 1,500 hours and take additional written tests, which officials say 30 percent of candidates pass.

“The questions in the tests are theoretical, irrelevant and chosen by bureaucrats who have never touched the controls of the aircraft,” said a senior pilot who works for government-owned Air India and spoke on the condition of anonymity to avoid jeopardizing his job. “This is why so many resort to faking their test results. It’s a well-oiled machinery. Flying hours cannot be fudged without the active connivance of aerodrome officials, aviation fuel suppliers, flying instructors and government officials. The rot affects the entire system — from top to the bottom.”

Pilots suspended in the past month worked for Air India and the private airlines SpiceJet and IndiGo, Gulati’s employer.

“We have busted two organized gangs from six cities that ran this racket of fudging test marks and booked them for cheating and forgery,” said Ashok Chand, deputy commissioner of police in New Delhi’s crime department. “The pilots’ licenses have been canceled, but the court has granted them bail.”

Chand said the average bribe paid by aspiring pilots for a forged grade sheet was about $15,000. In India, cheating carries a maximum sentence of seven years in prison.

The civil aviation minister, Vayalar Ravi, told the Parliament that a committee has been formed to develop tougher standards for verifying pilots’ test grades and licenses. He also said that online testing may soon be an option, as part of the effort to limit the opportunities for tampering. The committee’s report is expected by the end of the month.


“The questions in the tests are theoretical, irrelevant and chosen by bureaucrats who have never touched the controls of the aircraft,” said a senior pilot who works for government-owned Air India and spoke on the condition of anonymity to avoid jeopardizing his job.

If you've ever taken a CAA-style written exam you can certainly relate to this statement. :D

[flash8]

So they admit these appalling statistics which likely means the reality is double the number, and having encountered some of these "highly qualified" individuals nothing would surprise me.

One thing for sure - nothing will change.

[Airbubba]

Fake FAA licenses are rare in my experience. However every U.S. airline seems to have tales from the training building of folks using the wrong 'gouge' for the systems test and all flunking a la Animal House. Or, a story of the guy who stole the test from an instructor's desk and then jammed the Xerox machine in the schoolhouse trying to copy it (hey, at least I went to Zappo's to make the copies ;)).

Here's a pilot test cheating scandal that made headlines three decades ago.

A long while back there was a cheating scandal at the Air Force Reserve F-16 unit at Homestead AFB near MIA. One of the guys in the unit was a fed and would give out the written tests, leave a copy of the answer sheet on the desk and leave the room. Even fighter pilots could now pass the writtens for ATP, FE and dispatcher. :D

Somehow word leaked out and the whole scheme collapsed with grand jury indictments and military discipline proceedings.

Don't know if anyone did hard time in this one but one of my friends (callsign 'JR') unnamed in the NYT article below, had his ATP, but not his FE ticket, pulled by the FAA. Our airline let him downbid to FE where he laid low until the FAA let him retake the exams a couple of years later. I'm told some of these folks at other carriers were fired, it probably depended on how many F-16 drivers were in the chief pilot's office.

Here's a news article on this earlier case of license fraud:

U.S. Charges Cheating Plot at Air Base - New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/1988/08/05/us/us-charges-cheating-plot-at-air-base.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm)

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/495084-former-tradewinds-a300-pilot-finally-jailed-faa-fraud.html#post7406552

[Jonnyknoxville]

I once had 2 experienced captains in the sim from that general direction - it was glaringly obvious that something was amiss . I don't believe that they had ever flown the type of aircraft they had thousands of hours in and made a report to highlight the issue . Never heard anymore after it .

[esscee]

As long as they have a piece of paper ( licence ) with their name on it, then as far as they are concerned they are now someone entitled and it does not matter one bit how that has been achieved.

[unitedabx]

ICAO have known about this for years and turned a blind eye. Same as the English Language Proficiency Rating. Every Korean and Chineses pilot has Level 6.

[Pilot DAR]

Corporate culture - or organizational culture - is often informed by the meta culture (the overarching cultural context). Attitudes and behaviors do not occur in a vacuum. This can all be discussed professionally, to be sure, rather than like a bunch of mates in the pub with a few pints in them.

Yes.

This topic is well worth the discussion, and I would like to promote the discussion. Certainly, if the problem is more widespread than just PIA, that is valid for discussion. I appreciate a professional discussion, which would be equally welcome in the lounge of qualified, professional pilots, anywhere in the world!

[Jack D]

Seems like you might be about 40% down on the numbers of qualified, professional pilots should you hold the discussion in Pakistan

The Problem of bogus flying qualifications is well known among recruiters outside the counties where these licenses are issued.

Most are discovered during the hiring process, by admin staff, perhaps not all, I don’t know . Echoing the experience of a previous poster; some candidates are barely able to fly relatively simple exercises during recruitment
Simulator sessions.

Their ability does not match stated experience by a long shot , are their licenses bogus, or is it simply a lack of ability or both ? .

I hasten to add this does not apply to all candidates from the region but sufficient numbers appear to give cause for concern .

[beamer]

I seem to remember a Squadron pilot who prior to joining had apparently flown commercially in the US. His log books were by all accounts works of pure fiction but no doubt impressed OASC.

[Twitter]

This is not humorous. It is tragic. The world bodies must immediately check individual countries and airlines.

The airlines who let this go through - knowingly or not must be grounded with immediate effect.

It is a good time to do this, during the virus crisis lull. Maybe the more deserving professional outfits can pick up some business.

Absolutely unacceptable and criminal. Folks are getting killed by these bastards. Says a lot about the moral state of the World.

[flash8]

As long as they have a piece of paper ( licence ) with their name on it, then as far as they are concerned they are now someone entitled and it does not matter one bit how that has been achieved.
And that in my opinion succinctly and absolutely accurately nails the entire problem, it is cultural, and comes from Societies that hold very little in the way of values, the usual suspects where religion and the law are one and the same thing if you get my drift. Working for a SE Asian airline I flew with one such Captain, until I forced the issue, SOP's were not his strength, and his propensity for being a salvage merchant was well known as well as being supremely arrogant. Safety "department" was a joke.

[bafanguy]

I once had 2 experienced captains in the sim from that general direction - it was glaringly obvious that something was amiss . I don't believe that they had ever flown the type of aircraft they had thousands of hours in and made a report to highlight the issue . Never heard anymore after it .

Jonnyk,

Just to flesh out your encounter with these two individuals to understand how these things happen, were you a sim instructor at an ATO where they came for recurrent training on contract as individuals ? Or were they sent there by an airline ? I assume they were not pilots at an airline where you worked ?

[UV]

Don’t forget China too.
https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2010-09/07/content_11265252.htm

[UV]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-37482960

[Less Hair]

We should centrally record pilot qualifications and careers like car mileage and repairs. Any iPad and some central, neutral database could do it. Paper logbooks are not safe from manipulation.

[srjumbo747]

I tried to challenge an Air India 787 crew recently in Delhi airport about their decision making on the flight into Delhi (I was flying a similar route) but they, surprisingly, ran off.
Wonder why.

[Airbubba]

We should centrally record pilot qualifications and careers like car mileage and repairs. Any iPad and some central, neutral database could do it. Paper logbooks are not safe from manipulation.

You can look up FAA licenses (but not the logbooks) here: https://amsrvs.registry.faa.gov/airmeninquiry/

Unfortunately, pilots who have been terminated for cause will still get an employment verification these days. Airlines won't say much to avoid costly employment litigation if they give someone a bad reference. I can think of a few egregious examples in recent years. The pilot flying in the Atlas Air 3591 freighter crash had an abysmal training and employment record but it was swept under the rug, perhaps by the HR department.

It's almost impossible to get fired (permanently, anyway) as a pilot at a major U.S. airline if you have a union card from what I've seen. Under the Railway Labor Act you get a long series of appeals and hearings and a deal is often cut along the way. Still, every few months someone succeeds.

[macdo]

Ban PIA and any other carrier suspected of having an honesty issue until they can prove otherwise.
Although, to be fair, we do get them here in the west too, just far far fewer.

[JMock]

ICAO have known about this for years and turned a blind eye. Same as the English Language Proficiency Rating. Every Korean and Chineses pilot has Level 6.

from current personal experience that it patently untrue

[giggitygiggity]

During flight training we had an Italian, pretty much the only thing she could say in English was "ICAO LEVEL SIX". She flies the A350 now.

[Eric Janson]

Hehe, I find it hilarious in the context of recent surge of complaints in this forum that more often than not there is notion of "cultural factors" when accidents occurs where pilot error was a root cause.
Here you go in own words of Pakistani minister.

PS
This is the best part of CNN coverage:
"PIA has grounded all its pilots who hold fake licenses, effective immediately."
Sounds like they knew about the issue and apparently even had a list but until yesterday took no action.

That would be my educated guess as well.

I would make another educated guess that there were people making money out of this corrupt system.

They got caught and had to go public. I imagine the people involved are frantically trying to shift the blame away from themselves. All very typical for that part of the World.

Instead of opposing Corruption - people are trying to find ways to get in on the action! That's why things never change imho

Didn't their PM Imran Khan get elected on an anti Corruption platform?

[4runner]

And that in my opinion succinctly and absolutely accurately nails the entire problem, it is cultural, and comes from Societies that hold very little in the way of values, the usual suspects where religion and the law are one and the same thing if you get my drift. Working for a SE Asian airline I flew with one such Captain, until I forced the issue, SOP's were not his strength, and his propensity for being a salvage merchant was well known as well as being supremely arrogant. Safety "department" was a joke.

I get your drift. Yup...

[4runner]

You can look up FAA licenses (but not the logbooks) here: https://amsrvs.registry.faa.gov/airmeninquiry/

Unfortunately, pilots who have been terminated for cause will still get an employment verification these days. Airlines won't say much to avoid costly employment litigation if they give someone a bad reference. I can think of a few egregious examples in recent years. The pilot flying in the Atlas Air 3591 freighter crash had an abysmal training and employment record but it was swept under the rug, perhaps by the HR department.

It's almost impossible to get fired (permanently, anyway) as a pilot at a major U.S. airline if you have a union card from what I've seen. Under the Railway Labor Act you get a long series of appeals and hearings and a deal is often cut along the way. Still, every few months someone succeeds.

not entirely true. My current employer is getting good at letting go of dead weight, sop violators and sub par performers. The RLA doesn’t assist pilots. On the contrary. The atlas incident was the worst example of HR hi jacking our profession. The HR person in question isn’t even qualified to be head of HR, let alone pilot recruiting. She was smug and arrogant when I met her at an interview. Good thing she didn’t hire me, a current 747 FO and B-52 pilot that interviewed with me.

[parkfell]

The number one priority of any government is to protect its citizens.

This PIA airbus tragedy killed all except two on board.
The reckless conduct of the pilots has acted as a catalyst to investigate the corruption and forgery not only of [“fake”] licence issue, but also the conduct of revalidations & renewals to demonstrate continuing competency.

This wholly avoidable event should concentrate the minds of both Regulators and airlines to get not only the ‘Safety Culture’ right, but the whole process of training and examinations by adopting best practice.
Computerised exams be it FAA or EASA style. Acceptance of external audit teams through ICAO. Without that level of assurance standards will unlikely improve.

The airlines flight safety depts need ask themselves but one question today ~ are we an accident waiting to happen?
Those who believe a go around is a sign of weakness ( non macho style) need to think again.
Heroic “Pony Express” mentality needs to be confined to the history books.

The simple question crews must ask themselves ~ can the airline afford a HULL LOSS.
We all depend upon each other for continuing employment.

Follow the aircraft manufacturers operating recommendations. Invest heavily in flight data monitoring.
The step by step process for those resistant to change must start with education ~ engage ~ explain ~ encourage ~ enforce. (Scotland’s approach the C-19 public education).

[parkfell]

I know of one ex employee of Airtours who faked his logbook for licence issue.
Allegedly 739 hours of “Parker Pen” flying. Eventually found out and ended up in Hove Crown Court in 2001.
9 months suspended & £4000 costs.

CAA reset his “trip counter” to ZERO.

All previous hours and exams : NULL & VOID

The Daily Express raked it up again in 2008.

[esscee]

My "list" of airlines that I will not be a passenger on is well into double figures now. Be very careful where and with which airline you buy a seat. ICAO ought to be doing more as should national regulators. Some training departments in "certain" parts of the world need to be overhauled from top to bottom.

[zukini]

Is this just the start of the story. If the pilots have cheated there way to the front the rest of the organisations need to be looked at with some urgency. across the board. Do we also have a lot of ATC and engineers too. This is a human issue that needs solving, wherever and from whatever culture this comes from.

[nonsense]

The number one priority of any government is to protect its citizens.
If only that were so.
The number one priority of most governments is to retain government.
Some politicians, parties, and governments may convince themselves that they are doing the best to "protect their citizens", but there are always winners and losers and all politicians, parties, and governments vary in who they deem more deserving of winning or losing.

[TURIN]

People in that region want "something without putting the effort in" to achieve it. Be interesting if they go checking engineer exams/licences as well.

It has happened in the UK, so it can happen anywhere.

https://www.caa.co.uk/News/Aircraft-engineer-given-suspended-prison-sentence-for-lying-about-exams/?catid=157

[matkat]

Fake FAA licenses are rare in my experience. However every U.S. airline seems to have tales from the training building of folks using the wrong 'gouge' for the systems test and all flunking a la Animal House. Or, a story of the guy who stole the test from an instructor's desk and then jammed the Xerox machine in the schoolhouse trying to copy it (hey, at least I went to Zappo's to make the copies ;)).

Here's a pilot test cheating scandal that made headlines three decades ago.



https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/495084-former-tradewinds-a300-pilot-finally-jailed-faa-fraud.html#post7406552
I personally know of one person working on a fake A/P license. Around 5 or 6 of us were working for a well known US freight carrier in Europe (All Brits) we all held A/P licenses this particular individual was sent to Vienna to assess a tail strike and signed it of as within limits as chance would have it there were some feds at Vienna at the time and wanted to see the aircraft in question. Whenthey saw the damage it was found to be well out of limits and unsafe for any flight ferry or otherwise they then checked his license and this is when the fraud came to light turns out he was using the license number of someone long deceased with his name forged onto the A/P.

[A320LGW]

Will EASA and the FAA be issuing a ban in light of these revelations? If not is there a way we can pressure them to issue a ban? Perhaps a petition?

I operate to lots of airports where this airline can be found and I do NOT feel comfortable sharing airports and skies with these total crooks and incompetents about the place, I find it insulting (considering all we had to go through to get our seats) and worrying. Surely I am not alone?

[kangaroota]

I once worked for an airline flying tuboprops. They were trying to get their junior F/O's hours up quickly to the minimum required to transition to the jet fleet. They expedited the process by putting an F/O in the jump seat and letting them log the hours

[tcas69]

from current personal experience that it patently untrue
Doing the test in Cina ( 2008?) we all were tested by guys from Melbourne University, was quite thorough and many chinese pilots passed with level 4 some of them 5. Many older Captains did. not pass and could only fly domestic routes henceforth.

[bafanguy]

You can look up FAA licenses (but not the logbooks) here: https://amsrvs.registry.faa.gov/airmeninquiry/

Apparently, PRIA isn't enough for the FAA ? So they now want this ?:

"Under the NPRM, air carriers, public aircraft operators, air tours, fractional providers, and corporate flight departments would be required to enter pilot data into the PRD and would also have access to data contained within the PRD."

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2020-06-23/faa-pilot-record-database-proposal-draws-fire-nbaa

[Krautwald]

It has happened in the UK, so it can happen anywhere.

https://www.caa.co.uk/News/Aircraft-engineer-given-suspended-prison-sentence-for-lying-about-exams/?catid=157

True, but it´s simply more prevalent in some cultures than others. I think it´s a mix. The self concept of people, especially men, in some places is exaggerated. And maybe more importantly, if you are in a place where corruption and nepotism are more accepted and overt, it is also a matter of negative selection - you simply discourage the good apples. You don´t have to go that far to find this, I have Greek friends who migrated because they felt that they did their best and actually put in the effort, but enough lazy idiots with the right uncles or Dads will get hired before them. It´s not that hard to create a society where people feel that NOT using the extra help of cheating would be dumb. If ROI is low and uncertain, many will try to keep I as low as possible too. The opposite is hard, it´s hard to create institutions keeping such things at bay, and to get people to actually accept them (not just fear them). It´s kind of the whole point of a (not just economically:) developed society.

[Webby737]

Do we also have a lot of ATC and engineers too. This is a human issue that needs solving, wherever and from whatever culture this comes from.
Concerning the engineers I would say yes.
I've lost count of the amount of CVs that have appeared in my inbox over the years from that part of the world with qualifications and experience that are just not possible for the age of the applicant, well I guess it would be possible if they started their career at 10 years old !

[RVR800]

There have been a number of unqualified Drs in UK over the years working in medicine. Loopholes closed these days one would hope. They act the part and get away with it. Some have been actors. There are no incidents of Drs pretending to be actors as far as I am aware

[DeanoP]

I am intrigued to know how pilots with fake licences and fictitious flying hours pass the airline's acceptance checks and demanding simulator scenarios? Does the corruption extend to the airline's training and examination staff?

[WOTME?]

About five years ago I heard from a very good source that the UK CAA had hired an ex-Scotland Yard detective to investigate fraudulent engineer experience worksheets.

[b1lanc]

The number one priority of any government is to protect its citizens.

The simple question crews must ask themselves ~ can the airline afford a HULL LOSS.
We all depend upon each other for continuing employment.



And the number one priority of any crew should be to get the lives entrusted to their skilled hands safely from point A to point B. I would hope that would be the question crews would ask themselves rather than can their employer afford a Hull Loss. And, it's the paying public that you really depend upon for continuing employment.

[Bergerie1]

Unfortunately, similar things can happen in the UK. The pilot of this Vanguard belonging to Invicta Airlines that crashed at Basle in April 1973 had failed his IR at least nine times before gaining a Nigerian licence. One wonders what standards were applied during his recruitment and further training.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invicta_International_Airlines_Flight_435

[parkfell]

And the number one priority of any crew should be to get the lives entrusted to their skilled hands safely from point A to point B. I would hope that would be the question crews would ask themselves rather than can their employer afford a Hull Loss. And, it's the paying public that you really depend upon for continuing employment.

The trouble with ‘cherry picking’ extracts, without even indicating as such, is that it can give a misleading impression as to the whole message.
It goes without saying that the task of any crew is to safety transport the passengers. They will leave in their droves if they believe safety might be an issue.

[CW247]

Friends, this is a journey all cultures and countries have been through. Employment due to merit is a relatively new concept even in the Western world.

[halas]

I find one part of the original article most disturbing.

The fact that some of the accused are fighting the “Show Cause” in court.

Obviously, nothing to hide.

[Cpt. Underpants]

How about the SAA “fake licence “ holder who cheated on his exams, and went on to become Chief Of Standards?

[charliegolf]

Is this just the start of the story. If the pilots have cheated there way to the front the rest of the organisations need to be looked at with some urgency. across the board. Do we also have a lot of ATC and engineers too. This is a human issue that needs solving, wherever and from whatever culture this comes from.

Dunno, but a consultant heart doc I know assures me it works for doctors too. They (maybe used to?) keep logbooks of procedures they've observed and done.

[INSCRINIUM]

I am intrigued to know how pilots with fake licences and fictitious flying hours pass the airline's acceptance checks and demanding simulator scenarios? Does the corruption extend to the airline's training and examination staff?
Well, counterintuitively, there may well exist people who are competent at handling the aircraft but rubbish at exams. They would do well in the sim (highly motivated) but for whatever reason cheated their way through ground school...

[Fire and brimstone]

What is of additional interest, if the 40% figure is true (1% would be 'bad'), is how these folk go on to pass sims and recurrent.

If you have not passed flight tests, etc, how could you pass a sim, licence test??

[parkfell]

If they play it with a straight bat, the licences are revoked. All previous NULL & VOID
Back to square ONE as student pilot.
That is how the UK CAA have played it in the past.....

[vilas]

This accident may not be purely the result of fake license even with gunuine license similar crashes have happened. And an individual here and there may beat the system in any country. But the ability of such large number of people to get licenses, get selected in airlines, successfully go through their training programs and transition from right to left and subsequently become trainers themselves shows the rot is very deep. It's not just professionally mediocre but the criminal minds eventually take over power centres of Unions etc. and make it impossible to change the system. That is very frightening.

[Pilot DAR]

Well, counterintuitively, there may well exist people who are competent at handling the aircraft but rubbish at exams

Very certainly, there are such pilots, I know a few. However, they keep themselves entirely in the private flying world, solo, in a plane they own. In times past, great hands and feet might have got you through, but today, the complex systems of an airliner, and complex airspace, surely would require a good working knowledge of "groundschool" type things.....

[Blackfriar]

I used to work with a Pakistani man who told me that one of his relatives had moved to UK using his brother's passport and degree certificate and was living and working in UK as a civil engineer despite never having graduated. Is there any way to combat such things? I doubt it.
It's suprising during my admittedly non-flying and non-doctoring career that I have been asked for exam certificates only once, even though the qualifications were said to be "an advantage" in the job ad. Why do people not check? With grade creep my MBA from 1991 is probably now equivalent to a PHD.

[Jack D]

Need a PhD ? Look no further check out this company based in ... you guessed it, Pakistan no less

Axact

Lots of diploma mill information on YouTube etc.quite incredible? but hardly surprising .

As you said employers should check more diligently, on the other hand HR depts are not immune to corruption themselves .

[Wally777]

It's 25+ years ago now but I was a delegate at an IFLPA Accident Analysis Conference when PIA sent a couple of their pilots to talk to the committee following an accident they had had into Kathmandu. It was refreshing to chat with these pilots and realise like myself, they were family men, wanting to do a safe days flying and return home to their families. The real difference which became apparent was the difference in attitude between my employer to flight safety and how much my company invested in our safety compared to theirs. I have never forgotten this aspect.

[meleagertoo]

Something that our industry might take as pause for thought is that if such a large percentage of Pakistani pilots have not taken/passed the required training then what does that say about the usefulness or essential nature of that training?
40% of a nation's pilots is a statistically significant number but despite Pakinstans poor accident record by Western standards I wonder if the rate is anywhere near as high as might be expected given that figure.
On the acceptance of the figure of 40% how then is the accident rate so low given that almost half their pilots are not properly vetted?
Could it be that the vast scope and depth of Western training actually doesn't make all that much difference? That given time anyone with a modicum of ability and either a sharp pencil or a large wallet will get familiar enough to make a decent fist of it? I have come across one ot two pilots in Eu who conform to that description who have seemed quite reasonable pilots, except in pressurised circumstances.

Heretical ideas, probably. - But surely worth examining as the accident rate even in Pakistan doesn't seem to me to be even remotely close to fitting with a 40% absence of competency, licencing or examination among its pilots?

I am in no way at all justifying or promoting a reduction in training or standards, but one must ask the question that if woeful training and standards are so widespread in Pakistan why aren't their aeroplanes dropping out of the sky like flies? - we're talking 40% of pilots remember! What's the statistical likelyhood of having just one of those on board on any two crew flight? I'm not a statistician, someone else can provide that figure - but it's a bloody sight higher than 40%
So how do they get away with it?
That - 'how do they' - is something that needs to be seriously looked at and not swept under the carpet as it must have a great deal to say about Western training methods, their usefulness and efficacy.

It may well be that it really isn't too hard to fly a modern airliner fairly safely with a modicum of training until something goes wrong -especially something a bit beyond the 'normal oh-so-predictable sim emergencies", such as a situation where you land on the nacelles, deploy reverse, select TOGA, select gear down, then right back up again...and go around!

Or failing to trim a perfectly flyable aeroplane with a perfectly serviceable trim system because you've 'forgotten' you had TOGA set and you're busting VNe with flap deployed...and just gave up trying?

Or failing to recognise a simple stall all the way down from Fl380.

Food for thought - or shoot me down?

Do I hear the sound of quiet weeping from the Gods of - I'm about to swear here - @irmansh!p?

Please don't take these ideas as any hobbyhorse of mine, that aren't. I merely present them as (somewhat contentious) items for discussion that might just bring up some ideas for the betterment of Aviation.

[BDAttitude]

P(none fraudulent)= 0.6^2 = 0.36
P(one fraudulent) = 2*0.6*0.4 = 0.48
P(both fraudulent) = 0.4^2 = 0.16

Every pilot operating with more than one engine should be able do do this calculation after passing ground school ;-)

[Check Airman]

This accident makes a case for increased training, if anything. Had the crew been better trained, this would've been nothing more than a go around. No paperwork required.

[meleagertoo]

BDAttitude.
I passed CAA groundschool to ATPL plus UK military flight training and haven't a clue what your hieroglyphics mean, it is not a mathematical system I find recognisable.
Perhaps you'd be good enough to describe its importance instead of implying that pilots who don't understand it are somehow wanting in knowledge - unlike your good self...

I suspect it is something to do with statistics in which case your originial premise re 'every pilot" (PPL too apparently!) amounts to no more than unwarranted and arrogant superiority as stats aren't a part of any pilot traning, single engine, multi engine, glider or helicopter I ever came across...

Please - explain! Do!

[meleagertoo]

This accident makes a case for increased training, if anything. Had the crew been better trained, this would've been nothing more than a go around. No paperwork required.
Self evident.
But you're missing my point completely.
Look deeper into what is trained and why, and how much of it is really essential or useful.
Are exams on dry adiabatic lapse rates or precession in a magnetic conpass either necessary ot relevant? Who really needs to understand the errors in an IVSI or why a third sector climb rate is critical?

And how well evidently numerous reasonably capable people around the world seem able to get along for whole careers without it.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I think that a country where such a substantial portion of the pilot community may not have legitimate qualifications can only exist if the everyone is complicit, the regulator, the commercial enterprises, the training facilities and the pilots themselves.

So what is a practical achievable solution, short term, medium term and long term ?

This matters to every professional pilot as any public perception that the crew flying their airliner may not have valid credentials and the appropriate skill is harmful to everyone,and no I don't think that your average SLF is able to understand the differences in training, checking and certification standards between the crew flying a PIA Airbus and the crew flying their Airbus.

[Peter H]

meleagertoo

The OP's point is that -- if 40% of pilots have fraudulent credentials -- then for two-person crews
36% of flights will have 2 qualified pilots on the flight deck
48% of flights will have only 1 qualified pilot on the flight deck
16% of flights will have no qualified pilots on the flight deck

[AmIInsane]

Pakistan and India (Africa and most of Asia too) can also audit their qualified Doctors, Dentists, Accountants, Engineers and MBA’s.

Many of whom leave for the US/UK/Can/Aus/NZ/Europe as ‘skilled migrants’.

[Chris2303]

However when doctors get to NZ they become taxi drivers because they can't get a practising certificate without (I think) 3 years study in a NZ institution

[UnreliableSource]

The OP's point is that -- if 40% of pilots have fraudulent credentials -- then for two-person crews
36% of flights will have 2 qualified pilots on the flight deck
48% of flights will have only 1 qualified pilot on the flight deck
16% of flights will have no qualified pilots on the flight deck

There is unlikely to be a random distribution of "pilots". Those involved will understand what is going on. The system has probably adapted so that what is really happening is continued flying lessons during scheduled passenger services.

Outside aviation it is accepted that 25% of job applicant CV's contain outright fabrications. The world still adapts somehow. I certainly come across people who don't know the basics of subjects they have postgraduate qualifications in. In the good times they can lie their way up the ladder. In the bad times, well... they were the cause of the bad times.

[glofish]

I am intrigued to know how pilots with fake licences and fictitious flying hours pass the airline's acceptance checks and demanding simulator scenarios? Does the corruption extend to the airline's training and examination staff?
Must be. I went through sim assessment with two other chaps. One of them could not hit the runway on a manual raw data ILS three times in a row. He failed, only to appear as DEC at the outfit down the road 6 months later.
Easy check for the logged hours: Add all the "declared experience" of the pilots of the region in question, then compare them with the existing fleet of the last 5-10 years. You would have to double the fleet size to accomplish the hours ......

[Check Airman]

Pakistan and India (Africa and most of Asia too) can also audit their qualified Doctors, Dentists, Accountants, Engineers and MBA’s.

Many of whom leave for the US/UK/Can/Aus/NZ/Europe as ‘skilled migrants’.

Not sure which of those countries you're from, but that's not true of the US.

[Krystal n chips]

matkat

I knew of an electrician working on the contractor circuit, until, a respected Multi X engineer became suspicious and asked a few questions. He was indeed an electrician....but purely for the home and domestic appliances

Read a CV from the sub-continent once. On the surface, well qualified...however, his mistake was the discrepancy between his D.o.B and obtaining his "qualifications ".....which suggested he had started his engineering career at a very early age

I certainly knew a UK Eng, who was A&C Licenced, ...his CV however included a couple of extra type ratings shall we say. His non aviation qualifications were "impressive and detailed "....so I suggested contacting the tertiary education providers concerned. It turned out he attended the courses he claimed to be qualified in, but, only for a couple of lessons which. for him, duly made him "qualified "...his best effort however was to state "Director Designate " for a now defunct cargo operator. When contacted, they were intrigued to learn of his pending appointment.

[Fursty Ferret]

I passed CAA groundschool to ATPL plus UK military flight training and haven't a clue what your hieroglyphics mean, it is not a mathematical system I find recognisable.
Perhaps you'd be good enough to describe its importance instead of implying that pilots who don't understand it are somehow wanting in knowledge - unlike your good self...

😲

A caret before a number refers to an exponent. 3^2 = 3 squared.

[jumpseater]

There is unlikely to be a random distribution of "pilots". Those involved will understand what is going on.

I think that’s very likely.

I wonder what the possible consequences of a Swiss cheese event one day in the crew allocation department, means that two drivers with limited experience are paired?

[esscee]

What some people are possibly overlooking here is that the training to a reasonable level is there. The bigger problem is that many who "attend" the training are not so good and are quickly identified as such, it is the high level of corruption allowing these "not very good" people to "obtain" licences at a later date even after failing or being dropped from the training.
It requires more than National regulators in some of these countries to weed it out because they may well be some of the problem. ICAO and/or other worldwide organisations need to legislate and regulate in a much more firmer manner.
Let's face it, how embarrassing would it be for a country's airlines to be completely grounded due to fake licensing/regulation.

[CW247]

I hope like me everyone agrees "fake" is probably the wrong word. Essentially the "fakers" are those that cheated on more or more ATPL Theory exams or got someone else to attend them. I.e. the licenses are not forgeries but were granted based on false representation of some sort. Culturally speaking this is the norm in just about every jurisdiction outside the Western (and probably Middle Eastern) world, especially for ex-military pilots who are so respected for their years of military flying service that at age 50, no one would dare make them go through a civil examination to prove they can fly a big jet. Yes, even the CAA would be in on it.

[compressor stall]

This accident makes a case for increased training, if anything. Had the crew been better trained, this would've been nothing more than a go around. No paperwork required.
I don’t see that.

No amount of training can change the refusal to take the orbit. It’s cultural / organisational

[rixt]

Perhaps already mentioned in one of the previuos posts in this thread, another example of fake license, the co pilot of this disater:
https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19890607-2

[Deltasierra010]

It’s not just licences it’s experience and training too I was surprised to see both pilots in the PIA crash had not been in a simulator since 2010 and the California helicopter crash the pilot was not IFR current. Not to mention Boeing signing off their own aircraft safety, Does anyone actually regulate this industry at all.

[Vcten]

Hey posters, I know that with this story, it'll be difficult, but please comment the news story, and the facts, while avoiding general culture or racist comments, okay? Regardless of feelings some posters may have, we do have to try to stay within the PPRuNe rules.

Thanks in advance for your effort to reduce modding work!
In addition to being extremely patronising, its comments like that that make stories like this less likely to be uncovered.

[White Knight]

Seconded...... Brushing things under the carpet for 'fear of causing offense' is just getting to be too much!

[fireflybob]

I think another important aspect is that those who flaunt one rule (I can fake my licence, for example) are predisposed to breaking any of the other "rules".

Surely now the insurers are formally aware of this situation they will apply pressure for the authorities and the airlines to get this sorted?

I recall a large airline carrier in about the 1980s (Korean?) that had a run of accidents which, shall we say, should not have happened. The insurance companies refused to insure them unless action was taken. Experienced expat training captains were employed in their training department and they laid the law down and said airline had no more accidents.

[parkfell]

There have been a number of unqualified Drs in UK over the years working in medicine. Loopholes closed these days one would hope. They act the part and get away with it. Some have been actors. There are no incidents of Drs pretending to be actors as far as I am aware

The GMC website has a search function to check the status of doctors either by name or their GMC reference number. That together with their passport as photo ID is the starting point verify their bona fides.
There was a bogus consultant psychiatrist from NZ who was only recently discovered as totally unqualified (no medical degree) as part of her UK criminal trial concerning a patient’s WILL forgery.

[homonculus]

The oversight of medicine has continued to be strengthened such that nowadays it is almost impossible to get in on forged documents. This famous case of a Kiwi psychiatrist occurred due to a loophole relating to Australasian qualifications being recognised in the UK. Closed in 2003.....and that is the point - the system has become more robust. Just a couple of years ago responsible officers started cross checking doctors - a bit like line captains checking every check ride with previous employers. The CAA likewise has tightened its systems.

As others have said issues occur with lax or absent checks in countries where honor is more important than truth, where some applicants are more important than others, and where everything has a price.

[flash8]

And here lies half the problem, this response says it all, still in denial.

[flash8]

There was a bogus consultant psychiatrist from NZ who was only recently discovered as totally unqualified (no medical degree) as part of her UK criminal trial concerning
This famous case of a Kiwi psychiatrist
Psychiatrist was of Pakistani origin with fake Pakistani work references (which is how she obtained UK employment).

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018671980/bogus-nz-psychiatrist-dupes-nhs

[CW247]

There's a list going around with names of pilots with dodgy licenses. Some are dead, some retired. Allegedly this list was provided to the minister by the head of the Pakistani CAA's IT department. The CAA knows with amazing accuracy who doesn't have a real license. Isn't that amazing?

One commentator says they would know, they're the ones that took the bribes and adjusted exam details and results on the IT systems.

The plot thickens.

[Jack D]

Allegedly 27 Pakistani pilots suspended in

Vietnam because of dubious licenses. A total

of 261 pilots license holders under suspicion.

The plot thickens indeed .

[lpvapproach]

Agreed I thought it odd that the minister would state with such certainly this revaltion after this specic crash.

I also felt outrage that for those of us who spent years studying and training and a great deal of money to get qualified to be sharing the skies with those who took a fraudulent route.

[HPSOV L]

Something that our industry might take as pause for thought is that if such a large percentage of Pakistani pilots have not taken/passed the required training then what does that say about the usefulness or essential nature of that training?
40% of a nation's pilots is a statistically significant number but despite Pakinstans poor accident record by Western standards I wonder if the rate is anywhere near as high as might be expected given that figure.
On the acceptance of the figure of 40% how then is the accident rate so low given that almost half their pilots are not properly vetted?
Could it be that the vast scope and depth of Western training actually doesn't make all that much difference? That given time anyone with a modicum of ability and either a sharp pencil or a large wallet will get familiar enough to make a decent fist of it? I have come across one ot two pilots in Eu who conform to that description who have seemed quite reasonable pilots, except in pressurised circumstances.

That's an interesting posit. Of course it applies to other fields and professions as well.
The obvious opposing argument is that having a system of background information and theory with the associated hoops to jump through builds a feeling of exclusiveness and accomplishment. This status and the perceived time investment modifies the individuals behaviour towards conservatism because it's an achievement you don't easily throw away. The apparent low difference in accident rates needs proper statistical analysis but I think there's some dilution due to the size of the relative markets, globalised aviation standards and the actual extent of "fake" (how fake - a little or a lot?) credentials muddies the waters somewhat.

[Mach E Avelli]

This accident may not be purely the result of fake license even with gunuine license similar crashes have happened. And an individual here and there may beat the system in any country. But the ability of such large number of people to get licenses, get selected in airlines, successfully go through their training programs and transition from right to left and subsequently become trainers themselves shows the rot is very deep. It's not just professionally mediocre but the criminal minds eventually take over power centres of Unions etc. and make it impossible to change the system. That is very frightening.

Indeed it is very frightening. Aside from those countries where cronyism and corruption are embedded in the 'culture' it seems no place is totally free of sub-standard pilots.
I blame some of it on pay-to-fly schemes, whereby a candidate stumps up big bucks and expects a qualification at the end of it. We see this problem in our universities also, where pay-for-a-qualification schemes are the very financial lifeblood of these institutions.
Then we have subtle pressure applied on airline check pilots. The attitude is often that the candidate or the airline (or both) have invested a lot of money in training, so let them through the final simulator check on the basis that they will get solid consolidation during line training to address any deficiencies. But that does not always happen, as the exigencies of the roster cause short cuts to be taken, boxes to be ticked etc in order to get them out on line as soon as possible.

And, forgers or fakers do come up with some most innovative tricks. Only a few years ago I did a type rating on a guy who claimed that he had been a B747 Captain with British Airways. To put it mildly he was not very good, but foolishly (with the benefit of hindsight), I passed him out to commence line training. Reports back indicated that he could not taxi, which aroused suspicion that he had never operated a steering tiller. Further investigation by the airline revealed that he had never had a command at BA. His employment was terminated.
Six months later he reappeared at the simulator centre on another airline's type rating course, where reports from his instructor indicated that he was rather clueless, given his licence already had the aircraft type on it (different type). A photo copy of his licence not only showed the type rating I had legitimately issued, but his 'new' type issued some time previously, and somehow he was now an instructor and examiner on the type I had issued! Good work to achieve instructor and examiner on a complex aeroplane with scarcely any time on type and within six months. His licence was issued by a respected regulator known to be quite strict in processing paperwork and did not appear to have been a conversion of a foreign licence. I'd love to know how he did it.
Needless to say, now, at the slightest indication of a standards problem, my candidates don't get the benefit of doubt; they fail and are required to undergo further training before I will re-check them. Of course that does not guarantee that they won't go elsewhere for a check.

As for the Pakistani problem - ICAO should immediately down-grade the whole country to restrict them to domestic operations until such time as the regulator and airline receive a complete overhaul and rigorous audit. ICAO can not interfere in internal aviation matters, but their mandate does enable them to stop dodgy operations flying across borders.
Is ICAO treading softly-softly with certain countries in name of political correctness? Another possibility?

[blind pew]

One of my hamble mates played golf with a retired senior manager whom we had both flown with, a bit of a bully boy. He had claimed he had been flying for a European carrier in command past retirement age, when challanged he gave a knowing wink. His past history would suggest it was true.
Another instructor of mine who went into the authority would claim he fly spits which was challanged as it wasnt true.
Then we could mention P45 hours which were used to upgrade to a senior licence prematurely. (Parker 45 pen).

[A321drvr]

Nothing new here, things like this also happening in Euroland: former management captain at WZZ, now happy as pig in sh*t with RYR claiming previously employed by both Luftwaffe on Tornados and in China flying A340s with hours in his logbook looking rather suspicious when compared with his age. Many tried to challenge him but it seemed that he is untouchable for some reason or another. Sad.

[Anti Skid On]

However when doctors get to NZ they become taxi drivers because they can't get a practising certificate without (I think) 3 years study in a NZ institution

I taught a Masters in Health Management course here in NZ. The level of fraudulent certificates and qualifications, especially in relation to English proficiency was amazing. Many of the better achieving students were actually dentists, but for them to register in NZ they needed to do their practical exams for NZ, wait for it, in Canada, as Otago didn't have enough capacity - at a cost of $25K. Most now own bottle shops.

Many of the 'doctors' are Doctors of Ayuvedic Medicine, which is rightly not recognised here as it is up there with homeopathy

[Anti Skid On]

I think another important aspect is that those who flaunt one rule (I can fake my licence, for example) are predisposed to breaking any of the other "rules".

Surely now the insurers are formally aware of this situation they will apply pressure for the authorities and the airlines to get this sorted?

I recall a large airline carrier in about the 1980s (Korean?) that had a run of accidents which, shall we say, should not have happened. The insurance companies refused to insure them unless action was taken. Experienced expat training captains were employed in their training department and they laid the law down and said airline had no more accidents.

I remember that too, and one of the pilots had achieved his multi-IR in a twin than was in maintenance and was engine-less on the date of his flight test, which is by any account a bloody good effert.

[unitedabx]

Authorities worldwide, ICAO and all of us in the industry have known about this for years but nothing has ever been done. It took a recent crash and 97 lost lives to highlight the problem. PIA should be grounded immediately until a satisfactory explanation been provided and their system rectified. EASA, FAA, ICAO should act now.

[bafanguy]

Essentially the "fakers" are those that cheated on more or more ATPL Theory exams or got someone else to attend them.

So, in Pakistan no photo ID is required to take aviation license exams ?

[esscee]

More likely to be "adjustment" of exam answers post exam but prior to "official" marking, also maybe some "rupees" or whatever changing ownership.

[WOTME?]

7 Pakistani pilots & 56 engineers fired by Kuwait.

https://www.amevoice.com/blog/1211/fake-licences-issue-seven-pakistani-pilots-56-engineers-terminated-by-kuwai/?fbclid=IwAR3y2dSnqPRPbqWRzbUQQ7TDqrWgQsNkqvb5faGp6Xd_dyoQ7F SmdkMKf4M#.Xvf8cITDLHg.facebook

[WOTME?]

There was a B1 ground engineer on the UK contractor circuit who we suspected was using his father's licence.He never lasted long in any one job because he was totally useless.I heard on the grapevine that the feds eventually nailed him.

[TURIN]

Post #47 above perhaps.

[Blackfriar]

Having read this thread and considered the background to the whole issue of qualifcations and their validity I have come to two conclusions:

1. We must stop faking of licences and qualifications. By that I mean the photo-shopping of an existing "piece of paper" to show a different name, qualification, experience or whatever.
2. We must ensure that issuers of qualifications and licences are diligent in assessing the applicants and approving them. They must ensure that the identity of the prson being tested is actually that of the applicant.

Fortunately technology is now sufficiently advanced and cost-effective to help us significantly improve the authenticity of qualifications in point 1 above.
1. Instead of carrying a piece of paper or booklet with a photo at best for identification we can now use fingerprint technology - it's widely available and in use on mobile phones.
2. We can enable a direct link between the checker (new employer) and the issuer of the licence via the internet and a secure database. This will confirm that the licence is valid (today), when it might expire and be completely up-to-date with any endorsements or disqualifications that might not have made it to the paper-based system.

Dealing with my second point leads to the Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? quote - Who guards the guardians?
In practice this will be policed by failure. Employers can require that the licence issuer warranties the licence's validity - if there is a problem resulting in loss (of life, property or image) the employer can sue.
Licencing bodies with poor records will attract higher insurance premiums or perhaps even be banned, leading to a gradual improvement of standards. Good companies will only want to emply staff or contractors with licences issued by reputable authorities.
It's not perfect but, having read the comments in this thread, it also needs the employer to carefully check the applicant's background. Why would they not want to do that, particularly with anything safety related?
Unfortunately it will take accidents where people are killed and law suits traced back to employers and licence issuers before some employers care.

[WillowRun 6-3]

(SLF, progressing in aviation law, following thread(s) re: 8303)…
With a few years' worth now of observing what activities ICAO actually does and how it actually conducts those activities, from a pretty close vantage point both organizationally and geographically, two observations relevant to these revelations are worth noting (neither of them very pedantic).

ICAO is of course driven in a top-down manner, and in order to keep its fuel tanks full of Consensus, it defines and then almost defies what amount to slogans . . . in this context, "No Country Left Behind." Pray tell, where is the international civilian aviation community going, in the first place, and why would anybody who knows how to tell the (proverbial) pointy end of the airplane apart from the, let's say, lav "Occupied" door indicator, believe that ICAO knows either the destination we're trying to reach, how to get there, or what to do if something goes awry along the way?
Lest this appear as too harsh, I'll admit I have sometimes gawked in a kind of disbelief of wonder at the palatial building in Montreal where World Aviation has its Most Important Office, but being impressed by the sheer history of the items in the ICAO Museum does not signify organizational effectiveness. This all having been said, certainly there are top-flight technical people in the Organization, especially in and around the ANC (Air Navigation Commission). But they don't decide policy initiatives, obviously, and aren't the mainstay of the all-important Consensus.

As well, there is a disconnect between the way ICAO has succeeded, and where the international civil aviation sector, globally, exists and operates today. If someone knows how to draw a line of separation and demarcation that can, and will, keep what happens (in this instance) in Pakistan's domestic air transport sector from influencing its place and function in the international realm, I hope they will articulate it. Yes international flights can be banned - that's looking from the outside into the Country Not Supposed to Be Left Behind. I'm suggesting, looking from inside that Country, oops I mean Member State, outward, where is the dividing line between stuff that goes wrong but does not matter much to the international sector, and otherwise?

As a cheap shot, I'll add that maybe the post-Second World War overall diplomatic and commercial context which gave rise to ICAO by and through the Convention in Chicago of 1944, is past due time for a basic overhaul. I have as much affinity as the next person for a nice conference-producing organization which also does first-rate technical work and thus provides infrastructure support as well as nice destinations around the world for civil servants and governments to get together and expense-account-network. Still, if FAA and other Member States' CAAs are truly regulatory bodies, and if ICAO is supposed to be only quasi-regulatory at most, somebody ought to plug the bucket before the quasi tank goes dry.

[Rhody Flyer]

from current personal experience that it patently untrue

After working with several contractors last year while in Prague, (Korean, Chinese, Latin American) English proficiency level 6 was quite a stretch

[unitedabx]

WillowRun 6-3

With my former employer, the regulator had handed over almost total discretion to that company's management team. FTL's, dispensations, licensing, proficiency testing was all in-house and self certified. Even the IRE/TRE's were self appointed and regulated. Of course the relevant fees were paid to the authority but this kind of in-house marking only leads to disaster. Look at the Boeing 737 Max and FAA situation. Regulatory Authorities MUST be independent.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The issue of fake licenses is much worse in the Maritime Industry. Things are getting better only because the Insurance Industry has become the de facto regulator. They are refusing to insure some high value cargos unless the ships officers hold competency documents issued from an approved list of countries, which are almost all in the Western Hemisphere.

The difference is that except for China and Russia there are no equivalents to “flag carrier’s”. Shipping companies are businesses and they can’t survive in a very competitive market if they can’t get insurance, or at least get it at a reasonable rate.

The demise of flag carrier’s is being accelerated by the pandemic. Airlines operating on a purely competitive basis can’t afford Parker pen pilots, and the company leasing them the airplane have an interest in competent aircrew, so I think this problem will slowly resolve itself due to action by the insurance companies and leasors, while the regulators watch from the sidelines as usual

[sbthomas]

Big Pistons Forever

When I was flying skydivers back in the early 90s, one of my predecessors at the drop zone I was working at was reputed to have operated for many years on a faked photocopy of a UK licence. He was a damned fine airplane flyer to all accounts and seemed to be the real deal. I couldn't make the flying career pay and was enticed back into the ship-driving business.

I've been involved the last few months in a project to use Blockchain Technology to secure Seafarer Certifications and make the faking of certificates very, very difficult. It's simple to do. The Philippines has a system just about to go live - it would be live now but for the pandemic. A company called Navozyme is leading that and I've been working with them on our project. We're taking it a bit further in that we are looking to use the same technology and processes to verify and validate Seatime as well as certificates. It's a little easier with Seatime as our voyages are longer and so many fewer entries to verify - but the point I make is that the technology exists. In fact, IMO (international Maritime Organisation) has been pushing for e-Certificates since early 2016 and issued guidelines for their use back then.

If anyone is interested simply google Navozyme Certificate Authentication Program. They also have a link on there with simple simulation of what happens if someone attempts to alter an existing certificate - which seems to be the method of choice for most. Google Navozyme Cert Fraud Simulator and follow the instructions.

Our current targeted regulator is the UK MCA who have been mostly supportive. However, I've been discussing this with a number of other regulators. One senior official at an Eastern EU Maritime Authority expressed a worry that we would be hard pressed to make it work in his country "If we force this on the Marine Offices, how will the officials there be able to supplement their income as they do now"!

[Aso]

Mmm without wanting to be racist I avoid airlines in India, Indonesia and Pakistan for this exact reason.... Have seen to much stuff that has been faked. When I worked in Dubai I found it irritating that I had to send all my information from my schools and have it validated in the UK with the Embassy etc. But then working there I realized that they must have learned the hard way that the papers they received from people in those countries was not worth the paper it was printed on :sad:

[CW247]

I hope no one here still believes these licenses are "fake"?

They are not forgeries, it's a case of 1 or more exams either sat by someone else or cheated on (answers provided). Funny the CAA knows who they are (or is it, since they know who bribed them?). Standard mode of operation outside the Western world.

[esscee]

If the licences are not forgeries then what are they, sub standard? The person whose name is on that licence has not fully completed/passed the criteria to have the privileges of holding that licence with his name on it. As said in post 124, they are far too many people from that area who either have not passed the exams to have a licence or paid to get one.

[parkfell]

I hope no one here still believes these licenses are "fake"?.

The licences were issued by the competent Authority / Regulator.

However, the means by which they were obtained were by a process not in strict accordance with the Air Navigation Order and other regulations,
as deception and / or fraud is alleged to have occurred
pursuant to the issue thereof.

In other words, they were “at it” in simple parlance.

[standbykid]

There's this gem too...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Mexico_City_Learjet_crash#Results_of_investigation

[mijbil]

Soooo, are they hiring? ;)

[double_barrel]

"If we force this on the Marine Offices, how will the officials there be able to supplement their income as they do now"!


This is at the heart of the problem. You cannot blame only briber, the bribee is actually far more responsible and the system that supports the bribee bears the final responsibility.

If you are trapped in a system where a bribe is needed to get any service, then you really have little choice and you soon loose sight of what is 'right' or 'wrong'. If you believe that no matter how hard you study, you need to slip someone a bit of cash to 'facilitate' your ATPL, then it's a very short step to not having to study quite so hard and slipping a few more dollars to cover any small slip-up. In a strange way, the individuals with 'fake' documentation are also victims of a ******-up system.

[CW247]

Well said double_barrel. The system conditions people into thinking and behaving in a certain way which is why publishing names of individuals is just a cheap and nasty trick to detract from the real problem of corrupt institutions.

[fox niner]

So how are the Indian and Bangladeshi exams conducted? Who has relevant info? Who dares to step forward?

[WillowRun 6-3]

CW247: "corrupt institutions". Indeed.
isn't it ironic that the main international organization responsible for setting standards for civil aviation globally, has such a slight, or even non-existent, profile for holding the component institutions which constitute each Member State's civilian aviation sector to any standards for integrity, reliability, and positive approach to adapting to new, improved technological capacities? Just picture trying to implement and integrate a new state-of-the-art exam monitoring system and i.d. verification procedure on top of layers of "baksheesh".
If the results weren't so often tragic and senseless disasters, it would be comical. Until the projected traffic doubling over like the next 20 years (or some version of that) occurs and then a lot more things will be bumping into stuff when they should not.

[beamender99]

https://www.dawn.com/news/1566153/pia-banned-from-flying-to-europe-for-six-months

The European Union Air Safety Agency (EASA) has suspended the authorisation for the Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) to operate in Europe for six months
, the airline's spokesman said on Tuesday.

[Jack D]

My goodness , 6 whole months ! Hardly very punitive as PIA were barely flying internationally anyway.

The point is, there are numerous pilots and practitioners of many so called professions from this region working world wide. All bona fides need to be checked ... is that even possible ? I am not confident that it is .

[CW247]

Interesting defence here by a PIA FO saying the charge against him is that he has not sat one of the exams that allow him to become a Captain not an FO!

https://liveandletsfly.com/pia-fake-pilot/

[parkfell]

Unlike EASA, you appear to be able to sit ONE ATPL paper (old Nav block?) at a time for CPL/IR holders.
And again like old UK CAA rules, no requirement to be a (f)ATPL for RHS >5700kgs.
I think that changed mid 1990s?

If I recall correctly, under UK CAA CAP54/509 [pre JAR/EASA] last century, you had three attempts to successfully complete the block.

[FlightDetent]

CW247 Thanks for bringing it up. First good news, anyone serious about aviation is eagerly waiting for more.

https://liveandletsfly.com/pia-fake-pilot/

[4runner]

I had a buddy who flew in India for Ran Air on a King Air. He had an FO that was a relatively junior pilot. This individual had an IR, but had only flown into 2 airports. Neither had an ILS.

[Check Airman]

The 2 airports part is odd, but in FAA land, you can get an IR without flying an ILS.

[CW247]

So to summarise at this time. The idiot Civil Aviation Minister has dragged the names of potentially 100 of those 260 "fake" pilots through the mud because of a misunderstanding/overzealousmess . In his attempt to highlight corruption, nepotism and more at PIA he has unfairly tarnished many reputations.

Regardless of race and culture, we owe it to our industry colleagues to look at the detail in fairness and objectivity. Here, all is not what it originally seemed.

[esscee]

"Not as originally seemed". That could mean better or worse.

[CW247]

Really, did you understand any of the above?

[lederhosen]

It also raises the question about the level of qualification of long haul pilots at PIA. If they are able to fly the 777 on a CPL without having previously passed the ATPL theory than they are definitely less qualified then I would have expected. It reminds me of the long term SAA first officer who was flying without having passed the exam and who was involved in the overspeed incident with the A340 over the alps.

[parkfell]

I don’t quite see how not passing the ATPL exams would impact upon an over speed incident. Relevance?
Where this technical knowledge and understanding would be sourced would be during the type rating training?

Having done both the CPL and ATPL exams albeit last century as a self improver on the 700 hour route under CAP54, the ATPL met with world climatology was probably the only useful add on.
GRID navigation.....give me strength. At least no longer in the syllabus.
As one Sandy Thomson once described the majority of it ~ “high class rubbish”.
I think before JAR was formally adopted 1 July 1999, the UK changed their rules requiring (f)ATPL minimum to operate RHS >5700kgs. Those with CPL/IR were given grandfather rights, sine die, on their existing types only.

You need to learn relevant information, and not the academic nonsense I had to learn.
Apart from the technical side of the aircraft you fly which is critical and needs to be kept current,the initial groundschool for licence issue probably fades away to something close to PPL level, apart from those elements directly practical and necessary to do the day job.

A true story from PIK BAeFC days. An very experienced ex A2 QFI was undergoing FIC approval conducted by the resident CAA examiner. The examiner eventually started to ask in-depth Qs on something unnecessary and irrelevant aspect of how let us say a ‘widget works’.
This fairly new inexperienced examiner was then interrupted by the ‘candidate’ who asked for the time.
The watch was looked at and the time given. The candidate then asked the examiner to explain actually how the watch worked.
The penny dropped as they say.........

[lederhosen]

SAA introduced a requirement for their co-pilots to have an ATPL. The guy who was involved in the incident did not get one when they changed the rules, but had somehow fudged things to continue flying. At the very least this showed a lack of integrity and he immediately left when found out. I was merely surmising if there was any similarity with the situation in Pakistan or whether they really do just have lower requirements. What is not in any doubt is that the qualification and competency of Pakistani pilots is now very much under the spotlight. Whether we are talking fraudulent licences, Parker pen hours or lack of regulatory oversight remains to be seen. This is not something new and unexpected. You can google Lulsgate Cowboy for a colourful story from the past which if I remember correctly follows a similar theme.

[parkfell]

What is not in any doubt is that the qualification and competency of Pakistani pilots is now very much under the spotlight......... or lack of regulatory oversight remains to be seen. .

What is clear from the EASA suspension letter, licensing will also require a clean bill of health and be subject to EASA verification, before operating approval in EU airspace will be restored.
Going forward secure exam computerised setting and marking, EASA style, will need to be adopted to satisfy their regulations.
The more complex and delicate issue will be verifying that existing licence holders credentials are valid.

[zfw]

Some ban PK701 arrived in MAN at 14.42. APBID.

[parkfell]

Probably under the same exemption as their LHR arrival yesterday?

[krismiler]

These days it would be next to impossible for someone starting out in a first world country to obtain a flying licence by dodgy methods. The background checks, retention of training records by the flying school, computerised exam testing and officials who won't take bribes, make for many layers in the Swiss cheese model. In the past a few may have slipped through the net, but this doesn't imply a systemic problem, holes were exploited which have now been closed.

If 40% of qualifications are found to be fraudulent then the whole system is rotten and needs to be rebuilt from the ground up and I would suspect that it isn't confined to the aviation sector in Pakistan. The automatic acceptance with minimal checking, of qualifications issued in third world countries for any profession needs to be reconsidered.

An Indian driving licence holder will have to do a full driving test before being issued with a local licence in most countries, as the standards are known to be appalling where as a medical qualification from the same country would be far more easily accepted ??? This guy probably found it easier to be allowed to perform surgery in Australia than to be allowed to drive a car.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jayant_Patel

In some respects, a CPL holder with a recently issued licence and limited experience would be more attractive to an airline than a Captain with decades of flying as claimed experience, training records and exam results would be much easier to verify.

[John_Reid]

Fake Licences? Tip of the ice berg.

However it just goes to show all the academic stuff is not worth sh#t, when it comes down to operating an a/c. How come? Well 40% of the pilots in the nation in question have fake licences. With the exception of law (parrot fashion) and meteorology and maybe one ot two other subjects, why all the examinations. Can they fly the aircraft of not? They obviously could.

I knew a guy in the states years ago, what early '70's, had a PPL, he was flying long DC8'S. they only picked it up through some paper work check or rather. He has been flying the DC8 for years. A pilot of long standing, he was too.

When I was flying in India, the DGCA were the first ever aviation authority to require me to produce proof of licence, from the issuing authority. I have about 6 licence validations issued by other authorities, previous to that. I'll put money on the fact the fakes, in the above mentioned country, would be at least 40%

Funny old world ain't it?

[metro301]

Can they fly the aircraft of not? They obviously could.

As evidenced by the smoking hole and loss of life, obviously they could not....

[CW247]

No where near 40% are actually fake. It was a gross exagerration, politically motivated. Keep abreast of the latest updates for the truth.

[WingSlinger]

Probably under the same exemption as their LHR arrival yesterday?

EU banned them. Haven’t you guys Brexit-ed?

[FlightDetent]

​​​​​​EASA did.

[parkfell]

If you want a gentle bit of bed time reading try :

samchui.com

An “exclusive” insight into the intrigue concerning
their Minister of Aviation / CAA / AAIB / Court Judgements as described by:
”a letter from a Pakistani Pilot”.

[CW247]

https://www.dawn.com/news/1566500/cry-for-pia


The language of the letter is significantly watered down compared to the bombast with which the announcement in parliament was made. What are these indications? What are the grounds to suspect the genuineness of the licences in question? All this has yet to be established. The letter sent to the PIA CEO did not say that these pilots have fake licences and should be turfed out. It said only that the pilots mentioned in the attached list should be grounded while formal proceedings under the relevant Civil Aviation Rules 1994 should be carried out. During these proceedings, the letter continued, “appropriate opportunity … shall be provided by Civil Aviation Authority to each individual pilot to clarify his/her position”.

Now take a deep breath and pause. It turns out that the minister does not have evidence that the pilot licences in question are fake. All he has are indications that give grounds to suspect this. Based on these indications, he can proceed under the established rules to determine case by case whether the suspicions are indeed borne out or not. And each pilot in question has to be given a chance to clear his or her position.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1566500/cry-for-pia

[Always Moving]

from current personal experience that it patently untrue
The ICAO english test is a sham, another layer of burocracy to cover somebody’s ass.
I have taken several times in several countries
1 It was given by Ozzy’s with a VERY thick accent, I had no problem but some people never knew what they were saying, and parts of the test was clear oriented to airlines. They were asking a bout push backs and most people taking it were GA pilots, that never have been pushed back....
2 it was a Chinese that the interviewer, talked terrible english (yes this time was a interview portion)
3 another time in the Middle East, they told me that they could only give level 5
4 I have an FAA license without restrictions, so I do not really need it, but this is my experience

[parkfell]

Pakistan have validated 166 licences of pilots working abroad. They are “genuine and certified” according to their CAA. The remaining 10 will be announced next week. The overseas Regulators have been notified.

Of the 262 grounded pilots, 28 licences have been revoked and cancelled, with 76 still to be verified.

[Big Pistons Forever]

As was pointed out in many earlier posts there are 2 kinds of fraudulent licenses. They are either fake as is not actually issued by the regulator, or genuine but issued on the basis of a fraudulent application ( eg having someone else write exams for you, or bribing an examiner to pass you).

There still doesn't seem to be much clarity over which category the "fake" licenses fall in. At the risk of over generalizing, Pakistan does have a reputation of endemic corruption in many public agencies. I wonder what appetite there is to go further than a simple test of whether or not a particular pilot holds a genuine license document, to the far more contentious and difficult test as to whether or not the that document was issued on the basis of a fraudulent application ?

[WillowRun 6-3]

"There still doesn't seem to be much clarity over which category the "fake" licenses fall in." (Big Pistons Forever)

If I recall properly the EASA decision document "Suspension of Third Country Operator Authorisation" effective as of July 1 2020 does not reference the pilot licensure issues in any direct manner, nor does it refer to such issues by implication either. (Although, one would have to either recognize the particular contents of the provisions cited by the EASA or look them up, to be certain about whether or not the licensing issues were at least noted by subtle implication.)

But timing . . . it does not take much imagination, if any imaginings at all are needed, to see a pretty high likelihood that EASA's decision making officials were cognizant of the licensing controversy, and to understand that these issues were a factor which it is quite rational to "read between the lines" as part of the decision basis. And by controversy, it appears certain that the lack of clarity as to which type of fakery is involved is part of the situation.

[alan7777]

BigPistonsForever said
As was pointed out in many earlier posts there are 2 kinds of fraudulent licenses. They are either fake as is not actually issued by the regulator, or genuine but issued on the basis of a fraudulent application ( eg having someone else write exams for you, or bribing an examiner to pass you).

I'm a long time lurker, but felt I could contribute to this thread. I spent my childhood in South East Asia, and then during my career I have worked for 2 years in Japan and 6 months in Indonesia, as well as making many short trips to Thailand, Malaysia, China and others. It seems like the majority of PPRune posters are "Westerners", and so would have little idea of the culture in South East Asia. Until I actually lived there I had no idea of the scale of corruption in some countries - I was stunned!

First experience was befriending someone from the British Foreign Office in Tokyo - he had previously worked in India, and was the target of several internal inquiries because of his refusal to accept some "official documents", e.g. a visa applicant with a Birth Certificate saying they were 25 when they obviously were in their mid-thirties or even older. He got so fed up that he bought an official death certificate - for himself. This was no PhotoShop forgery - this was issued by an Indian Government office . If a court in England had made enquiries of the Indian Government they would have concluded he was dead.

But the scale of corruption in Indonesia was just stunning. I was working for a sub-contractor on a World Bank project. Now I saw the obvious police corruption - stopping the little mini-vans that provide public transport and "collecting money". If they didn't pay up the police would find a problem with their van - and there were lots of problems - bald tyres, rust, etc. So cheaper just to pay up. But one of the long-term ex-pats told me how the system worked in the Government Department the project was for. A permanent government job in Indonesia is "gold", so to show their appreciation the lowest rung employees pay around 10% of their salaries to their boss. He in his turn has to show his appreciation to his boss, and so it goes up the pyramid.. So it's simply a way of life there.

So, based on my experience I would expect that in a lot of South East Asian countries you would have to pay a bribe to get your pilots license - that's the way the system works. If you can actually fly - that would be a bonus!

[esscee]

The above post (#159) sums up the problems very well indeed. Why waste time and money when you can buy your licence. The next scandal to break will be the medical profession, some of the "so-called" doctors from Asia are completely incompetent, and that really is costing peoples' lives as much as fake Pilots/engineers etc.

[Ancient Mariner]

I bought my car driving license, my motorcycle driving license and my International driving license in Manila.
I'm also an "agent" for the Phillipine National Police and as such immune, says so on my ID.

[mnttech]

Well, this came out of the FAA yesterday:
"competency of the airmen examined by Mr. xxxxx from the period of October 2008 through December 2019 is in doubt."
I just have to wonder where the over sight was for 11 years....
https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/0/3d813cfc6240487c862585ae0033b915/$FILE/N8900.555.pdf