Comparable pay offer for ATCEs/ATSAs

[Alert_5]

I would like to know of anyones' views on the current state of the pay offer and if ATCOs are in agreement that ATCEs/ATSAs should have a comparable pay offer. We do work hard to ensure an Air Traffic Service is available, as well as you guys(speaking as an ATCE)

[2 six 4]

Basically you are asking the wrong question to the wrong people. I would love my colleagues to earn as much as they can spend but I don't set their wages.

You have an anonymous Chairman and a Chief Executive who are paid lots of money to decide this amongst other things.

[Greebson]

I agree that you should share the same increase as ATCOs, but you have to remember there is now a split between the 3 of us which I'm sure management will try their upmost to keep.
I also think we should try to pull together, rather than increase this anti-ATCO surge I can see creeping in through the company. Remember, you can say you believed management as much as you like, ATCOs were the ones with the balls to stand up and fight initially and not believe them. We are not responsible for your lesser deal.

[Alert_5]

Greebson

We only accepted the deal on the say so of our branch of the union. They only recommended it to us as the Management said there was absolutely no more money in the pot. I totally agree that we should all stick together, something which we should have done at the start!!!

[Asda]

Yes, of course we should have stuck together. But the assistants and engineers chose to believe management and the controllers did not and seemed ready for a fight and look what it got them. The controllers may not be totally happy with it, but its good enough for the assistants and engineers to want to kick up a fuss about it. Given managements misguided perception of an excess of assistants and engineers and obvious shortage of controllers do you really think they will want to continue negotiating equally with the three groups? Yes we should have stuck together and now that PCS has forced the issue, we may find it too late.

[Dan Dare]

NO ATCO SHOULD VOTE FOR THIS VERY DIVIDE AND CONQUER TACTIC.

Just when I think NATS can sink no lower, they always find a way:rolleyes:

[Greebson]

Dan

NO ATCO DID vote for a divide and conquer deal, they voted to REJECT THE PAY DEAL which we all should have done.
As I said early we need to pull together and not stir up anti-ATCO feelings within the company

[250 kts]

Alert 5.

As I understand it your BEC and members were naive enough to believe management when it said no more in the pot and voted to accept the deal.

The ATCOs voted against the deal and were prepared to take action if there wasn't more on the table. I suspect that most of the ATSAs would have continued to come to work even if the ATCOs were on strike?

The ATCOs then negotiate a SECTIONAL increase and all of a sudden the ATSAs/ATEs want a slice of the cake??

If I were NATS I'd tell you to s*d off and try again next year-in the hope that you will be naive again then.

I reckon you've shot your bolt for 2002/2003.

[Minesapint]

I doubt if ATSA's and other support staff would have gone in by crossing a picket line. I and my colleagues would not have.

It may be a sectional claim but its not a 'sectional' offer! Its a 4% payrise. THAT is why PCS and ATCE's are not best pleased. Will the ATCO's cross our picket lines? Hell yes they will in their droves (and Merc's!!):mad:

[Captain Spunkfarter]

Minesapint

Don't look on ATCOs as your enemies in this. Turn your energies on those who appear to have represented you so poorly.

[Karoshi]

250kts, I think you are missing the point. "The ATCOs then negotiate a SECTIONAL increase and all of a sudden the ATSAs/ATEs want a slice of the cake?? " Not true. As a PCS member, I have little choice but to leave the pay talks to PCS and then trust that they have judged the situation correctly. On that basis PCS members voted in line with the union recommendation. This year PCS got it wrong after being misled by management and it's not surprising that the majority of PCS members are not happy with the situation. It has nothing to do with ATSAs/ATEs suddenly wanting a slice of the cake. All we want is to be treated fairly.

[roger]

Minesapint
wild-cat strikes went out with Maggie in the 80's/90's. Legally you wouldn't have a leg to stand on if you decided not to cross ATCOs picket lines, if and when it happens. If ATSAs decide to strike I would go to work, but as normal(with staff shortage and what-not) would insist on working with an 'A' as part of the team.

I suspect this would mean working with the small minority of ATSAs that come to work or T&D ATCOs trained to do the job. ATCOs could also work as an 'A' which would provide a very limited service, not just to do with numbers but a lack of knowledge in how to work the system and apart from the ATSAs who would work on flight plans?

I hope you all stick to your guns, and next time you're told "sorry that's all there is." you won't be so naive.

roger

[Spotter]

If you personally as an ATSA/ATCE voted to reject the pay offer then yes I do ave sympathy with you now feeling cheated. However if you didn't have the balls in the first place to reject the offer the you don't have a leg to stand on when you now try to cry unfair. Your vote to accept the offer is your personal statement as to whether YOU accept or reject the offer presented. That's regardless of whether management, union, media, mystic meg or anyone else tell you it's all that's available. If as many of you as are now complaining had shown some solidarity with the ATCO's in the first place you might not have been in this situation now. If ever there was a time you might have improved the offer it was by presenting a united front with us ATCO's. That was when you should have jumped on the bandwagon.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not an ATSA/Engineer basher. I was an ATSA myself so I do appreciate what you do, & how little thanks you get from management & some colleagues. I (amongst others) tried my best to persuade both the PCS rep at my unit, and as many of the ATSAs as would listen to jointly reject the pay offer with the ATCOs. However it was not to be. I feel you have been very badly let down by your union, and it's now up to all of you to take issue with your union heirarchy & ensure it doesn't happen again, as I too believe that this time you have well & truly missed your opportunity for a better deal this year.

I hope that the big lesson to be learned here is that it's a big tough unfair world. Management are clearly happy to have an adversarial them & us relationship & try to cheat the staff at every opportunity. (evidenced not only by this years pay, but don't forget the bonuses we were all cheated out of last time). Until they change their behaviour we have no alternative but to treat everything they say with utmost suspicion.

Good luck & I hope we all get an outcome we are happy with.

[Flybywyre]

Just got back from the flying club............
Too p****d to add a sensible reply........
Regards FBW

PS PCS why don't you write a weekly column in "VIZ"

[Greebson]

Karoshi

I think YOU are missing the point. Would you have preferred the ATCOs (after turning down the pay offer) to say, "Well actually the ATSAs and Engineers accepted the pay offer, don't give us any extra we'll take the same."?

[Big Nose1]

ATCO`s in NATS are at best paid an average wage compared to UK and Europe.

ATSA`s in NATS are paid very well compared to UK and Europe

Debate.:)

[Bern Oulli]

Do you honestly think that we would have all this bitterness if ATCOs, ATSAs and ATEs were all in the same union?? We certainly wouldn't have had the "divide and conquer" routine that even now is causing feelings to run high. Nor, if it ever came to it, would we have the problem of staff from one union crossing the picket line of staff from the other union.

Instead of putting all this exasperation into a war of words between ATCOs ATSAs and ATEs, why not put it into considering how ALL relevant staff might end up in just one union?

I suspect that that would be a prospect (no pun intended) to make our management go a little pale.

[Bev Bevan]

Bern... you took the words right out of my mouth.

[Minesapint]

roger.

I take your point but I voted no to the offer and would not have crossed ATCO picket lines (sickie) unless there was a safety issue that had been agreed by the unions.

Et al..

Its about time that there was a single ATC union. The three unions (in effect) give management a tremendous advantage. Take a look at other privatised orgs. BA is a good place to start. Divide - conquer - walk all over.... It will take one good leader to stand up and offer his/her services to get the new union going - thats all. They would be killed in the rush. It aint me I'm afraid....

Some ATCO's (the 'ATCO only' brigade) would never want to be in the same union as support staff. Good grief - ATC support staff with 25 years + experience may even want to join a professional body!!!

Remember that ATCO's are a minority and whilst I agree that they are not the best paid in Europe they are far from the worst and most of the population would consider all of us to be quite highly paid. They would have no sympathy for the striking ATCO.

[radar707]

Minesapint,
You're right we're not the worst paid controllers in Europe, but we're a lot closer than you think to being the worst paid, we come a close second to the Irish (Not counting the Eastern block)

[Scott Voigt]

Wow, that one statement speaks volumes. About the controllers not being the most of the Air Traffic Employees. Why would there not be more controllers than support staff? Does it really take more support staff to keep the controllers procedures and equipment in order?

As to one union to cover more than just one. Take a look at NATCA.net and see how we look as a combination union. We don't have everyone in the agency, but we do cover quite a few of the specialties...

regards

[madge]

Surely it is about time that the "them and us" (ATCOs and ATSAs) attitude is put in the past? Air traffic is about a number of people doing different things to keep the system working. Could an ATCO really do their job as efficiently as they do without an ATSA or ATCE to help? The ATCO function is recognised as the most important one - moving aircraft about is the ultimate aim - but it would be impossible without the equipment and people to work it and maintain it.

One union to represent everyone involved in the process would surely be more preferable than everyone doing their own thing!

[Minesapint]

Madge. Excellent.

Scott.

Yes there are more 'support staff' than ATCO's in NATS. The management ( and I do use that term so very loosely ) decided to get rid of over a thousand engineers and recruit truck loads (loads - Loaded - pun geddit (not you Scott - its a reference to a recruitment ad)).

This, as we knew, will not work. The COTS systems do not exist and we will require most of the engineers and specialists we have to carry through the business plan. NATS is now left with £780M debts and no paddle. Well done UK government!

Seen the trawl notice to go work with Nav Canada? Thats for Prestwick Oceanic being a copy of the Gander system. If engineers and specialists need to go work in Canada for two years (yeah right - 4 years I bet) then COTS its not..... nes pas?

[Scott Voigt]

Wow, that is amazing. No wonder NATS can't make any money with overhead like that....

regards

[Ayr_Man]

We would never be in this mess if people had the balls to threaten strike action when the Govt. said is was going to part privatise NATS.
Instead certain people jumped into bed with the "Airline group" blinded by the glossy image of "I'm Mandy- Fly me" (10 cc from the seventies for any youngsters!).

Castrated sheep would have had more bottle!

:mad: :mad: :mad:
:D

[White Rose]

Ayr-Man Unfortunately the Trade Union Laws passed by the previous Government meant that strike action against privatisation was illegal and that we could only strike if we had a grievance with our current (at the time) employer. I do share your views though and wish that so many people did not have the "head in the sand attitude" thinking that it would not happen to us! What is needed is a concerted effort by all Unions involved to push for re-nationalisation of NATS, after all, The Government HAS to, by law provide an Air traffic service, unlike a rail service.

[Hairy Badger]

Nobody appears to have mentioned this but the majority of the Union voted to accept the pay offer.
Should not then a thrid of the Union accept the decision of the majority, or is that not how democracy works.

I know that ATSA & ATCE friends of mine, are p****d off, because it appears to them that, the Union members with the power, us ATCOs, only appear to care about ourselves.

[DangerousD]

White Rose

I'm no expert on union matters but can you explain to me how the tube drivers (just one example) have managed to instigate a series of one day strikes because there is the posibility of P.P.P??? Did they just say that that was their particular greivance against their employers??? why couldn't we have done the same??

[with alacrity]

Hairy Badger

What Union (singular) are you referring to?
As an ATCO surely you know that there is more than one.

[Hairy Badger]

1 Union, 3 branches

[ATC Engineer]

Hairy Badger

We already have 1 union with 2 branches that can't agree so I can't see how adding a third would make it better. 1 union with 1 branch would be more useful

[2 six 4]

1 union 3 unions ... whatever.... it would make no difference. There comes a point when the staff will be paid according to how difficult it is to replace them.

We have just passed that point.

Good luck to the ATSAs and engineers. If they negotiate well they will probably end up a system similar to the one which pays very different rates to ATCO 3s in towers and ATCO 2s in LACC. A b***dy painful negotiation that was for ATCOs. Airport ATSAs will get little and ATSA 4s at Swanwick will get a lot because they closed big bits of airspace.

Engineers on vital projects should get enough to buy their co-operation. Others will not. Does an ATCE 4 get the same all round the country ? If so then differentials will appear.

The ATCOs flexed just a little muscle and increased their worth in relative terms. They will do it again when management look for productivity increases.

Now the others should do the same to get fair reward. Only you can judge what is fair for your job in your part of the world.

[dontshootme]

2sixfour

Thanks for telling everyone what the future holds - I wish I had crystal balls.

Who is more important to the safety of air traffic? The engineer on a big project which may not be operational for another year or the one who maintains the equipment being used today?
Once again you display an incredible lack of knowledge about the work of others around you. A real "I've got mine, to hell with the rest of you." attitude.
With ATCOs like you who needs managers?

As to the silly idea that people should get paid in relation to how difficult they are to replace, what about paying people in relation to what they do?

[Undercover]

Yes... let's negotiate seperate deals for each employee with consideration to their skills, experience, location, difficulty to replace, sickness record, hair colour, cup size and/or inside leg measurement....

I'm sure management would love to have all ATCOs on individual contracts - so they can shaft you all one by one. And if you are selfish and blinkered enough to believe all this elitist nonsense, then you deserve what you get.

We all need each other and we all should stick together.

In my opinion the extra offer to ATCOs looks like an entirely deliberate attempt to split the unions and the workforce. If they had thrown money at the ATCOs in any way other than on basic pay then the rest who voted for the original deal could have no complaint. Argument over. They knew that. They chose to give some of their staff extra and to hell with the rest... knowing exactly what response that would get.

I believe that NATS are in negotiations at the moment which could see a compromise deal in which everyone ends up with more than the original offer.

Don't take the bait... Stick together.

After all... 10% to an ATCO on £50k is still more money than 10% to an ATSA or MSG on £25k... so you can still feel superior if it excites you that much... ;)

[Bern Oulli]

Don't you think it is high time we all got out of our little boxes, threw away our individual little labels telling us how important we individually are, and accepted the fact that we are ALL members of the team that is the National Air Traffic Service? If we all pulled in the same direction as well as we manage to bicker amongst ourselves then who knows what we might achieve.

We each have a job to do. If one of us fails to do his/her job, life becomes more difficult or impossible for others regardless of grade/rank/call it what you will. One job - Air Traffic Control. One Union for all involved in Air Traffic Control. And while we are at it, why confine membership to those employed by NATS?

C'mon guys and gals. Focus your eyes on the middle distance and try to see the overall picture. Most of all, have a little respect for the other members of your team - including Tels.
:cool:

[2 six 4]

undercover - you have a touching faith in the management skills and planning. I just believe the NATS director who said the ATCO pay offer was a cock up.

[Undercover]

I'd say less faith and more cynicism...


then again... cock up sounds more likely doesn't it!

[bwatchbabe]

As a relatively new member to pprune I get the impression that NATS engineers have a real problem with ATCO's. I wonder if they express as much venom towards other people who earn more than them. I have no problem with friends of mine who fly for BA and earn considerably more than I. We live and work in a free market economy. If you feel you are worth more than you currently earn then prove it by leaving and earning more. The same would apply to ATCO's who spend their time bleating about the pittance they get paid for such a difficult job. It's only difficult if you don't have the apptitude for it. Lets all take a long hard look around us and thank our lucky stars we do a job that we enjoy;and if you don't enjoy it GET OUT! Because life is just too short.

[2 six 4]

10 out of 10 for common sense but did you work for BA before privatisation ? If not you probably don't understand the internal politics and the detachment from the real world that most of us get away with in our daily jobs. If you did then you made a prety interesting transition which many in NATS could do in 10 years.

[with alacrity]

I am fortunate enough to be employed at a NATS unit where the atcos and engineers enjoy an excellent professional working relationship and have even been known to have a few beers togther! I have nothing but respect for the engineers and the skilled work that they accomplish.
We discuss operational problems, new equipment and even the ergonomics of the working environment without any serious problems whatsoever.
Conversely, I have been in the company of some engineers who seemed to have a real problem with atcos.
Being referred to as a 'Headset' rather than a grade,being called an overpaid airborne traffic warden or overpaid prima donna spring to mind.
Thankfully these individuals with a chip on both shoulders are no longer around.
Or are they?
It might be interesting to hear from engineers or anyone else for that matter who has a problem with atcos,what that problem exactly is.

[All Systems Go]

Would that be wise WA? Joking. We engineers don't really have a problem with anyone (apart from some of the 30+ year old kit we work on). Where our problem, as I see it, stems from is the "your not an ATCO so your scum" attitude that sometimes seems to come from some of our very professional and talented colleagues. Now I know this isn't the majority opinion, just as a militant engineer isn't the norm. It would be boring if we all got on swimmingly, wouldn't it.

Back to the point of this thread. I see the main problem with this ectional pay rise thing as a union issue. We all fall under one union right? Prospect. So how can they negoiate a pay rise, bung, bonus, whatever you want to call it for one section when it only took one section to have the pay deal rejected? I pay the same dues as anyone else in the union (I think - I could be wrong...) so why does my sub money go to getting someone else a payrise in the same company? Yes I know we whimps...errrr engineers voted yes, but the ATCOs voted no and the pay deal was scuppered. So surely if its all or nothing to reject a pay deal why isn't it all or nothing on any new rises or bungs that are so skillfully negotiated by our union friends?

The majority of engineers that I know do not have a problem with ATCOs, or anyone else for that matter. But we do have feelings, and we're only human, even if we do hide behind a screwdriver sometimes.

Bwatchbabe - when I made my life choice to be an engineer I knew I was never going to be the best paid in a company that had more than engineers in it. Thats fair enough. This venom you speak of I think is a little unfair. If you feel undervalued as an ATCO in the company try being an engineer who feels they have even less value in the company. Pull together all of us now. You never know, you might like being in bed with an engineer, as it were....

[jocko0102]

The ATCO side rejected the offer the other two did not.
So you cant throw your toys out of the pram now demanding more.
Within a few years ATCO pay negotiations will not be part of the rest of NATS like it or not.
Now despite the fact that assistants are part of the big cog that keeps the organisation going they are so overpaid it is im afraid somehing that will not last.
There is no point in having a go at me but that is the reality, i cant even imagine what the anual ATSA wage bill is but it will not stay the same forever.At some time new assistants will be on contracts that pay a lot less.Very similar to what happened in BA so that you dont have the situation where Cabin crew are earning 30 to 40k for the job they do.
The engineers help keep the equipment going for us all and without that we are goosed.In my own experience engineers are never etremley well paid in most companies so it would be difficult to judge whether they are earning enough or not.
We all hav our part to play but the ATCOs should not feel bad about looking after themselves we are the ones at the sharp end every day and we are the ones that could go to jail for fu..ing it up.

[Minesapint]

More self hero worship. What a yawn.

Now it seems we have a split between engineers that work on major projects (that become operational systems) and those that support these former projects - or use the facilities created - on a daily basis. We don't require 'management' do divide and trash us - we do it ourselves!

Personally I am really surprised that 'they' gave in to the ATCO's demands - I would not have but, I am not a former ATCO pretending to be a senior manager that has just given in to ATCO demands, am I!

One union - one branch and the sooner the better. Some of the union reps are sounding more like managers every day and having their nests feathered for them.:mad:

[jocko0102]

I am not suggesting that engineers do not have a resposiblity for accurate equip and controllers rely on that every day.
However the chances of us getting it wrong and ending up in the doo are greater than for assistants and engineers despite the role they play in the safe/orderly running of ATC.
I am not going to feel bad about wanting more money/recognition or singing the praises of other controllers just because some assistants/engineers dont like the fact we were offered more money(which i rejected) or that they think we are a bit arrogant , which makes very good controllers by the way!
If controllers talk about going to jail or the pressure etc...its not because they are living a hollywood fantasy its because they want to be heard because they are pissed off and that does not put you in a good frame of mind to keep planes apart.

[All Systems Go]

You hit the nail right on the head there jocko my friend. You're just looking after yourselves. Thats what we engineers/ATSAs are doing by getting all annoyed at people just like you that seem to cause more problems than you fix. I myself have alot of responsiblity in my job. If I mess up things could go really wrong for ATCOs, and would you believe there are more things I could do wrong to cause problems than you. You have very well laid out procedures for most things. Ok, you do have to manage this and one flight going the same way each day will probably never take the same route twice etc, but my point is that my job is far less procedural than yours. Now don't bite my head off on that (I know your gonna, you see like the type...). I don't really know an awful lot about your job, although I have to know enough to know what the pressures on you are and what you need fixing first, why you can't talk at times and why you can at others. But I guarantee you I know more about yours than you do about mine.

All the rest of the SAME UNION want is parity. nothing more. Maybe our BEC types were niave in believing the management that there was no more cash. Thats not the point any more. The point now is I pay the same union dues as you, so why should my dues pay for your bigger pay rise? Just looking after myself chum!!

[jocko0102]

I am not going to bite your head off.Far from it.
I understand well your resposibilities.I was an engineer ( not with Nats) for several years so before you go off telling me what i am etc please think.
The euip you maintain is needed by us without question and without it we would be in a bad way.
However we do a different job with different pressures etc and i would like, along with i suggest a sizeable number of ATCOs ,separate negotiations on our pay and conditions.
Understand my friend that the way us ATCOs feel is not against you as a person or persons we have just had enough of the way we are treated for what i think quite rightly is one of the most responsible jobs anywhere.
Not having a go at you.

[Aunt Rimmer]

ASG - Many of my pals are engineers. That is not a precursor to me now slagging youse off ;) but I would suggest that the 'in your head' pressures in each job are completely different. I worked with software before ATC - if I took my time or didn't fix things quite right the first time, sure it pissed the users off, but the time pressure to get the task done 'in my head' was not 'ever present'. (Whether the boss was happy is another matter.)

BUT it is a different ball game in ATC. We often only have seconds to make a critical decision - and believe me when two ac are closing at 15 miles a minute and every landline call you make is engaged, or every r/t call gets 'say again, was that for us?' - each second that that 'thing to do' doesn't get done makes the pressure rise and makes it more likely that another ac comes on frequency to put that 'to do' item further down the list. And we can't just shout clocks off or take a timeout to think about it, the situation just keeps developing ..... at 500kts.

I'm not introducing an us+them mentality, but ATCOs ATSAs and ATEs do different jobs, all needed as a vital part of the team, but, different jobs. And in the same logical vein I don't see nurses asking for parity with doctors.

[All Systems Go]

Let me deal with each reply separtaly if you will. Firstly Jocko.
May I congratulate you on getting away from the engineering way of life. I wish I was clever enough to get a better job. I realise its nothing personal, and I also realise we do different jobs, and thats fair enough. Lifes a bitch then you go home right? Your job is extremely responsible. I'd hate to have to feel the same sort of pressure you fine people undergo every day. However. We too, as engineers, are very badly treated. As so many of your colleagues like to point point out alot, its the ATCOs that make the money for the company. So imagine how poorly a mis-manager treats us lowly engineers? The majority of ATCOs and indeed ATSAs I've come across in my 3 years with NATS (to the day thank you very much) are very fine people who would do most anything to help you. But on pay, we need to get a few things sorted. I understand you earn more than me. Your job demands it. But on a pay rise? Why should you get more? I'm a cog in the wheel just so much as you are. So why should my cog attract less than you? Am I not as important? I'd like to hear from anyone who truely believes that an engineer, especially a systems engineer like me, is not needed and the whole business of ATC could work without them? (By the by all engineers, I couldn't do my job without the support of all engineers. We are brothers, so please don'tget all excited and get upset) I see your point. We all do. Can you see my point? Certainly on the union dues issue? All we ask is for parity of payrise, not pay.


Aunt:

Are you saying I'm making up the pressure of having an ATCO being very unpleasant and quite upset that he can't contact a big tin tube on the phone cos of my personal failings as a human being? You said you worked in software devolpment, so you have no experience of first line and second line engineering support? Try it. Its not as easy as you might think. I grant you we all do different jobs. I'd be called an ATCO if I did the same job as you right? You have gotten my whinge a little confuddled. I'm not asking for parity of pay with you. I'd never get that. All I'm asking for is parity of pay rise, certainly while we're in the same un-union.

Your point about the pressure of things happening quick is well taken. I've seen it quite a few time myself. You haven't had to deal with a very (understandably) irate ATCO/LAS/Watch SUP however who is blaming your mother for the design of the whole system. A tad melodramatic I feel, but I'm at home and supping on a few beers after a long boring day, so let me be.

My ATCO friends, lets be clear about this. We need to stick together. You need us just as much as we need you, if you realise that or not. Lets not get all excited about who deserves what and why cos ATCOs win hands down every time. A little recognition from our chums the "top team" (contradiction in terms there if you ask me...) wouldn't go amiss though.

[Mr Chips]

Jocko. I pray to God, and any other deity that springs to mind, that I never ever have the misfortune to work even in the same building as you, with your attitude towards your co-workers. yes, co-workers. Telling us we are "overpaid". Well thanks a bunch. It seems that the divide and conquer technique gets your vote. I listened to a WATCH MANAGER talking to an ATSA today. Thats a SATCO, very senior, been in the job an awfully long time. According to him, the ATSA would be despeartely needed in teh event of a FLOP, so much so that he will not allow him to be used for other purposes...(anyone in TC may know what I mean). Ask that SATCO if he thinks the ATSA is overpaid, and I know that he will say NO.

Grow up Jocko. We have never asked for pay parity, and we have not "thrown our toys out". We feel that we deserve the same percentage pay rise as the rest of the company.

I have a good relationships with ATCOs - always have done. But I have only ever worked with grown up ones.

[jocko0102]

Oh dear Mr Chips have i touched a raw nerve.Firstly you dont know me so you cant really comment on me as a person.I have a very good relationship in and out of work with assistants, however you are paid lots for what you do.The fact is i reckon most controllers agree with me but not everyone is prepared to say it.This is not a personal attack on you or any assistant but you are extremely well paid for what you do.
Im sure a fireman putting his life at risk would love to know what you are paid.Plus the asistants said yes to the pay deal,we said no.Where was your solidarity(if you said no then fair enough).
like it or not you wont get much sympathy from most controllers regarding your pay because they believe you are paid too much anyway and we have more than enough on our plate to deal with.

[niknak]

Excuse me for butting in on hallowed ground, but whilst NATS management regard ATCAs as eminently dispensible/replacable, and engineers to a lesser extent but with the same disdain, neither profession is going to achieve the recognition it deserves.

I know that a good atca is worth their weight in real ale, and a good engineer is worthy of the same accolade, but there is a no shortage of suitable people to fill such posts as and when required.
Compare this with atco's, at the moment, there is a shortage of expereinced atco's, and current traing schemes are barely keeping up with demand. This will be the case for the forseeable future.

A simple case of supply and demand, and perhaps you should wake up to that.

[Karoshi]

Jocko, your arrogance is staggering.

Firstly, to generalise and say that all ATSAs are paid too much is wrong. Don't forget that many ATSAs are now undertaking tasks that were once ATCO responsibilities (FIR, Gatwick lighting panel, Flow, and the previous SSA tasks at LATCC to name a few). Does that mean that you think that ATCOs were overpaid when they undertook these tasks?

Are you aware of all the ATSA tasks around the country (TC, Swanick, MACC, Oceanic, Heathrow Tower?) or are you baseing your sweeping comments on just your unit?

I don't begrudge you a penny and think that all ATCO deserve far more than they get paid at present. Obviously perserving your ego is just as important as any pay rise you will get.

If HCS fails tomorrow, stand up and tell the ATSAs who will be running around like headless chickens that they all get paid too much. I'm sure that will be much appreciated.

[Bigears]

From The Herald Archives
25 YEARS AGO
AS Britain's 850 traffic control assistants were called out on strike yesterday after three were suspended for not working normally, British Airways announced that the stalemate dispute is costing them £1.5m a day in lost revenue. The inconvenience and delay to thousands of passengers living on the reduced total of 60% of normal flights by all airlines serving the UK, will continue indefinitely.

I'm sure that this will get a few replies....:rolleyes:

[Mr_Grubby]

Mr Chips.

Quote :- ATCOs, I have only ever worked with grown up ones.

WRONG !

You worked with Me !!

Mr G.
:) :) :)

[jocko0102]

Assistants dont like it when the issue of their pay is raised because deep down you know you are on a winner as far as what you earn is concerned.I fully accept you have your part to play and i am not questioning your abilities or work rate but like it or nor you as assistants are paid a lot of dosh for what you do.
Im not going to change that and im not demanding you get a pay cut but im willing to bet that within X years new assistants will be on new contracts that pay considerably less.Just like cabin crew with BA.
And to suggest that i need to grow up because im questioning what assistants are paid,WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
There are controllers that think we are paid enough and are not prepared to say no or take action,however the fact i dont agree with them does not mean i cant sit beside them and have a joke and a laugh and still work together to get the job done.

[Bigears]

jocko0102
im willing to bet that within X years new assistants will be on new contracts that pay considerably less.
Look at the payscales- New Contract Airport ATSA's are on a lower scale:(

[Undercover]

Jocko... we are all well paid for what we do in this company... that's the reality.

The job of an ATCO is a pressured and responsible one... but you earn more than the average policeman, fire fighter, nurse, teacher and even many doctors... try and tell me you're more important to society than them... ?

I've been accused of being "Anti-ATCO" a good few times in the past. The reality is I have a great respect for the job an ATCO does. As I have a great respect for teachers, nurses, doctors etc etc. (maybe not the police!) However, all of these people need the support of those in their organisation who may earn less and have less responsibility in the front line. Burn your bridges with those that help you through your shift and you'll soon work out exactly how valuable their work is to you.

I'm just not keen on arrogant tw@ts, no matter what their profession. :D :D :D

[Karoshi]

Jocko

I'm not going to get into an arguement with you because you obvioulsy have your own ill-informed opinion and I have mine. But I ask you again to consider the following. Are you fully aware of all the ATSA tasks at all the NATS units and the responsibilities with each position? If the answer is no, then it is quite unfair to generalise about ATSA pay. Pay comparisions between grades and occupations are nothing more than egotistical. Whilst I'm busy discussing my pay with a fireman (as you would like me to do), perhaps you would discuss yours with a Junior Doctor who has just done a 70 hour week for half your salary. And whilst we're at it, perhaps we'll get a 25 year old from the city to discuss his £100,000 bonus and at the end of this bun fight, we'll leave our mess to the cleaner on a minimum wage to clear up. What will it all achieve? Will you walk away feeling a better and more important person because you earn more than some of the others. Probably.

Whilst I would admit that ATSAs get paid well (not overpaid), their working conditions have changed a lot over the years. The previous post showing that there were 850 ATSAs in 1979 would need to be re-written today as the numbers have dropped to around 500. Every ATSA is working far harder than a few years ago. On top of that we have little job security, limited promotion prospects and a fear of worse to come. It is this that makes ATSAs react when you criticise our pay, not because we think we're on to a good thing. It is a real pity that you don't recognise the importance of everyone working as a team rather than post damaging and ill-informed personal attacks on the very same ATSA staff who may just bail you out of a hole the next time you are on duty.

[Bigears]

Karoshi, Very eloquently put. :)

[chiglet]

Karoshi
Hear hear:D
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[mainecoon]

take your point but you seem too into character assasination for my liking

i think i work at the same unit as joko and talking in the rest room controllers and atsa's all use the term money for old rope

chiglet you must have heard/used this term yourself

so take a couple of steps back people before you go for the jugular at what you think the motive for a comment is without thinking what you and your fellow workers are saying about the jobs we do!

[chiglet]

mainecoon
In a word NO!
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[jocko0102]

Yes ive noticed that the people that dont like what i said have resorted to calling me this that and the next thing.
However if you look and then take on board what i have said i am not questioning any assistant as a person or their ability to do a job or demanding that you are paid less.
What i am trying to say is that for most assistans(and i know you have different responsibilities/pay up and down the country)is that you are well paid for a job that while important,does not for most require lots of training or any particular skills and does not carry with it a great deal of resposibility.
It does not mean i think you are low life or that as a controller i am here to save the world at no point have i said that.
I do however believe there are many controllers out there who share my point of view.
Does that mean they are all @*&^%$£)"!!! to.
I dont think so.
People can question my salary and what i do to earn it and if i thought they needed to be put straight about it then i would tell them without resorting to slagging them off because i cant come up with a good enough response!

[mainecoon]

too much time in the legionares toilet on fouth flour rather thn enjoying dialoge with your fellow team mates in the rest room

the comment is good

you all do an invaluable job but get well paid loads of time off etc

but also require the same pay rise in percent terms as us atco's

however arguing like this will only hasten the separation of the branches in our union and then see how you get on with pay deals

we do rely on you but management are out for your grades so watch out

unity is the key!

[Bigears]

mainecoon you all do an invaluable job but get well paid loads of time off etc but also require the same pay rise in percent terms as us atco's
Agreed! We need appreciated for the times we work our socks off for you. We do get well paid- sometimes we earn every penny, sometimes we don't- its in the nature of the job. 'Loads of time off'? Mainly because we work shifts, and if we are able to do a night without having slept the previous day, well thats up to the individual. Wouldn't say we get any more time off than an ATCO though :p.
What other perks do we get? - I must be forgetting something, but you've included an 'etc'.
We do require the same pay rise- not asking for the same amount, only fairness.
Personally, I believe we should all be 'brothers' and not squabble amongst ourselves. It is a Team job, about the safe and expeditious flow of Air Traffic. Respect, man! :cool: (except for management :( )

[Fallows]

I am an OJTI on the FIR at Swanwick, I replaced a top of the scale ATCO who earned twice what I do to do the same job which I do not begruge for one moment!.
I would concur with what has been said about Jocko not being aware of the various tasks that ATSAs do. To my knowledge there are many posts where ATCO and ATSAs do the same job but get paid diferent salaries by vertue of being in different grades.
My point is though, I have news for the various people talking about the worth of ATCO, ATSA, ATCE, etc. To the management we are all EMPLOYEES! and if they could, they would get rid of us all!. I am not being critical of management, that is what they do, and we are not helping our case by arguing amongst ourselves about our respective worth.
Guys, Its a big world out there! Why are we wasting our time arguing amongst ourselves. If you want to get angry, get angry about things that matter, War, Famine, Disease, etc. Sorry, if I sound like a hippy!
If Jocko is concerned about money, respect, worth, etc, if the PCS get the additional 4% that they are after, if Jocko e-mails me privately I shall donate those monies to a charity of his/her choice.
LOVE AND PEACE!

[Karoshi]

Jocko

My last post on the subject because clearly you are not prepared to consider stop and think about some of the points raised.

I called you ill-informed in my last post and this is why: To quote

"Yes ive noticed that the people that dont like what i said have resorted to calling me this that and the next thing." This is a real classic since you have just called your fellow colleagues who didn't vote W....krs in another thread. Can't have it both ways.

"most assistans(and i know you have different responsibilities/pay up and down the country)is that you are well paid for a job that while important,does not for most require lots of training or any particular skills and does not carry with it a great deal of resposibility."

1) The training for an ATSA at my unit takes well over a year
2) Think about the OSS post at LATCC. These guys know more about HCS than you will ever know. Isn't that a skill?
3) I can think of several instances where ATSAs have been directly involved or caused a loss of seperation. Just giving an inaccurate clearance can lead to this. Isn't this responsibility?

"I do however believe there are many controllers out there who share my point of view." This is the real problem I have with your posts. Based on a belief, you have decided to act as spokesman and post damaging remarks that will only lead to ill-feeling. Couldn't you just have kept your thoughts to yourself rather than undermine the ATSAs in such a public forum.

The basic ATSA pay in not that much out of step with the national average. What does increase it significantly is unsocial hours and shift disturbance payments. But I also have to get up at 0430 for a morning spin duty, work Christmas Day and hand-write strips at 0200 in the morning when HCS is off. This has as much of an effect on my life, family, and social life as it does yours.

I'm obviously not going to change your mind on anything, but perhaps in a few years time when the ATSA has been replaced by an electronic box of tricks with questionable reliabilty, you will draw some comfort from the fact that NATS wage bill has decreased. Or will you wish that there was somebody a little more human there to support you.

Goodbye and good luck with your camapaign.

[jocko0102]

I suggest that all of you go back read my posts and then take a deep breath.Once you have done that then you tell me where i am saying you are not important or i dont like you or anything else that questions your function in Nats.
Regarding me taking on the task of spokesman,i have expressed an opinion that like it or not is one that a lot of controllers that i talk to share.Are we all tossers and arrogant etc?
Regarding calling the 400 (minus genuine ones) Wa***rs, well they are because they have shown total apathy at a time when we should have stuck it to management and the government.Some of these people will have been there up and down the country moaning about pay and conditions but then couldnt be arsed returning a ballot paper.
There is a difference between that and people on here calling me names because i have mentioned assistants pay.
And despite the fact you will tell me that PCS told you to accept the pay deal because of bla bla bla, you didnt have to.Nobody new how the Atco branch were going to vote.So when you talk about standing together remember how you said yes we said no and now you are not happy.For those of you that said no good on you but the rest of you.....

bollocks "knew"

[Fallows]

My friend has just asked for clarification about the musings on this site as it seems to her that we are having a " go at each other" rather than the management-surely not!
Incidently, she is a senior first officer on B747s and she earns less than most ATCOs.

LOVE AND PEACE!:

[Greebson]

I'd like to meet a B747 pilot who earns less than 36000k pa. I know a few (underpaid) ATSAs that earn more though.

[Bigears]

Greebson, The only ATSA's who get more are on the FIR- that who you mean?
Probably justified (at times) :D

[Greebson]

Big Ears

Desk ASTA 4 Supervisors, wings ATSA 4s, AIS ATSA 4s, Lighting Panel ATSA 4s, In fact any ATSA 4 close to the top of their ladder get paid more that ATCO T&Ds (maybe justifiably) and ATCO 2 and 3 up to and including our spine point 2.
So when we are qouting figures earned by ATCOs in comparison to that earned by ATSAs, instead of quoting top of spine ATCO 2s against an ATSA 2 salary do like for like.

[chiglet]

greeb, jocko, mainecoon
Yes a "lot" of ATSA4s get paid a "little" more than ATCOs...who are a/ on T and D
b/ bottom of scale.
Point a. Said ATSA4 will not get a 100pc[plus] increase in base salary over the next 10 years
Point b. I repeat, NO I have never heard "OUR" job described as "money for old rope" [It may have been discussed by non-ATSAs in their absence. On this I cannot comment]
Yes, YES YES , you earn your corn, but I honestly think that the rest of us do too.
A "minor" point. Have you ever worked a 24 [plus travel] hour day?
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[Greebson]

Chig
All I'm trying to say is that when it suits an argument, it seems it's okay to quote the salary of a top of the scale ATCO 2 against that of an ATSA 2. I'd be happy quoting the salary of an ATSA 2 against an ATCO 3, but the pay disparity doesn't look as impressive when "ATCO-BASHING" does it?
For the record I'm an ex ATSA 2 and ATSA 4 having worked at numerous locations in NATS and at the moment, some 3 years after making the switch, am still earning less than I would have as an ATSA.
I was an ATSA for a hell of a lot longer than I've been a controller and in some ways wish I was still one but exaggerating pay disparities does no one no help whatsoever.
For the record ATCO 3s will never get £50k a year. I suspect a lot of the ATSA complainers on this thread are from ATCO 2 units. There is a world outside Area,Heathrow,Gatwick and Manchester.
Oh and before I forget take a look at the ATCO 3 scales, I think you'll find we nowhere near double our salary.

[jocko0102]

Greebson for President!!

[Bigears]

Greebson, really you should be comparing ATCO3 against ATSA1 New Contracts, at some airfields, and ATCO3 against ATSA1 at others. The fact that there are ATSA2's at most airfields is neither here nor there- it wasn't their fault that things were changed.

BTW, Can you explain a couple of things to me?
Why is UHP pay grade specific (within grades as well)?
Why do day-working ATSA's not get UHP?

Jocko, Are you at Scottish or is it that you have Scottish roots, or what? No need to be location specif if you don't want, just me and my mates were wondering.........

[Greebson]

Huge Lugs

Point 1: I'd love to but they are all still top of the ladder ATSA 2s at my unit.

Point 2: 'Fraid I don't know I don't run the company

[PH-UKU]

Greebson seems to be the only one with a grip on reality.

Dumbo - do you know what they pay ATSAs at airports outside NATS ? Have a guess.

Hint - If you guess over £10k you're wrong.

Now compare that to the huge wages paid in the London Area. If I were you I'd keep my head down, mouth shut and save like **** cos' the accountants have obviously sussed the ATSAs costs out. It probably costs about £60-80k to employ one ATSA (salary times 2 for adminny costs). You could buy a lot of off the shelf computers for that money.

You're on a good deal, but the numbers up - fact of life I'm afraid. Don't blame the controllers for that or for pointing it out.

And where that fits in with ATCO wages is irrelevant. However, ATCOs look like they've just had the **** taken out of them and for being such pansies deserve all the shafting they're now going to get.

Must dash - early schedules tomorrow.

[Bigears]

PH-UKU, With all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about.
I could go through each point in turn, but don't see why I should.

[PH-UKU]

Ahh ..... fatal denial ? or the response of the deaf mute?

Please enlighten me, 'your Imperial Lugness', I am willing to be re-educated. :D

-----------------------------------
(NB Chic .... 1-0 )

[Karoshi]

PH-UKU

Being a little short of Annual Leave (despite all the time I get off), I just popped into PC World to buy one of these new "off the shelf" super ATSA replacement computers. I had planned to send it into work tomorrow and give myself a day off. Unfortunately, they'd sold out ( I think that Jocko and Greebson must be stockpiling them). Oh well.

I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the original plan for NERC to do away with ATSAs and replace them with electronic strips etc. And wasn't it the ATCOs (quite rightly in my opinion!) who wanted paper strips and ATSAs to go with them so that there was an effective back-up in the "unlikely" event of a computer failure. Maybe I'm out of touch a little but if the feeling really is that ATSAs can and should be replaced by "off the shelf" computers, who am I to argue.

With regards to your estimate of the cost of a London ATSA, don't forget that "admin costs" such as NI and pension costs will apply to the non NATS airfields as well. So you can double your figures for them. Many non NATS airfields also pay considerably less for ATCOs.

Isn't it about time that we called a truce now? The anti ATSA, ATCO and ATCE messages that have appeared on this forum have really only done so because of this years pay talks. Management have achieved their goal (with our help) and split us all into our own camps. Lets just get on with our jobs (whatever grades and payscales) and work together as we used to as a TEAM.

[Bigears]

PH-UKU, I cannot get into anything deeply on a public forum, both because it is public, and also because my fingers would be worn out through all the typing.
The best way for education would be for you to visit an ATC Unit, where you can find out what ATSA's (and ATCO's) do.
You are a pilot, so would be made most welcome (despite comments about ATSA's). Education=Understanding=All Happy :)

[ATC Engineer]

I've just heard that the ATC union negotiators insisted that NATS limited the amount that was offered to ATSAs/ATCE as they wanted more in the pot for ATCO's. Cheers guys, its good to know who our friends are

[Greebson]

ATC Eng


You really shouldn't listen to all your told.



p.s. did you hear PCS (ATCO Branch) have secretly negotiated an extra 6 weeks leave a year for ATCOs and for ATSAs/ATCEs to lose a few days, but keep it to yourself
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :confused:

[mainecoon]

agree with greebson i'm afraid atc eng

in the same way the lady called macbeth manipulated her husband you should recognise the way you and your fellows in trade have

i agree you should be given the same pay rise as atco's

at the end of the day though if what you say is true then give your reps f@@**@g sh!T they are part of the trade union side and obviously shafting you not representing you!

ps hope you vote no in spades we atco's should have no balls really or maybe mortgaged to the balls or just vocal bulls******s:confused:

[Undercover]

I heard the same story... As I heard it the ATCO negotiators weren't happy that after smugly announcing they'd now bled NATS dry to get their improved deal, more money was being found for non-ATCOs. They didn't want to look stupid at missing out on getting even more.

Personally I couldn't care less as, if it is true, they failed anyway. :rolleyes:

[ATC Engineer]

Maybe its true maybe it isn't. From what I can tell the majority of engineers are going to vote no. I've heard though (and this may also be false) that if we reject the pay offer management will scrap it entirely and begin again although the ATCO offer will remain in place

[250 kts]

So you're going to vote "no" on a deal which is an improvement to a deal that you voted "yes" to a few weeks ago?????:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[radar707]

If the engineers vte no, maybe we ATCOs could change our minds, then it could go on forever and maybe a bit longer than that.
It's time all this ill feeling between ATCO, ATCE & ATSA was put to bed.
We all work together and God knows the system would collapse if it wasn't for our collective efforts.
One payrise for all, that should be the way it is, but some negotiators are too timid and believe everything they're told (a bit like some contributors to this forum).
The way forward..... many suggestions have been made, and maybe one day the problem will be solved.

[Alert_5]

250 kts

Not every engineer voted yes for the last pay offer. I didn't and have again voted no! The reason being that I don't believe that this is the best offer we can get and the fact that our Union negotiators said that we wanted complete parity with the ATCOs. Now they are saying, Oh well, lets not push it too far!! if we don't want to look like complete mugs we have to stick to our guns and go for parity.

[Undercover]

Just a couple of things...

1. If the engineers rejected this time, then the whole offer to ATCE, ATSA & MSG would be scrapped and back to square one... but the ATCO deal will go through this month regardless.. So the representation will be split for good. Remember that doesn't just mean a split on pay negotiation.. but on everything.. terms and conditions etc.

2. Did I read right? Did someone actually ask why people who only work day shifts don't receive UHP?!?! Come on!