Has training restarted?

[planesandthings]

Apparently a UK Flying School at Sandoft is providing checks to pilots according to a post on Twitter by @inflightvideo who recorded his flight with an instructor today.

Has the guidance changed or is social distancing just old news?

Edit *Tweet deleted it seems, lot of backlash... someone else has put a topic on flyer about it*

[Emeroid Eng]

GuidanceCoronavirus (COVID-19): recreational general aviationUpdated 4 June 2020
Limits on GA flying in EnglandSince 13 May some sports, in which it is possible to observe social distancing, are permitted (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do/coronavirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do#public-spaces--outdoor-activities--exercise). The government takes the view that recreational general aviation is a permissible recreational sport.

This excludes most training flights, as social distancing measures require people not in the same household to maintain 2 metres of separation. While these flights are a key source of income for many aerodromes, they cannot presently be undertaken, unless this can be done in a way that reduces the risk of Covid-19 transmission to an acceptable level, including maintaining 2 metres separation between aircraft occupants.

Whilst noting that online training and socially-distanced training on the ground can take place, the inability to undertake training flights will mean that some pilots will not be able to resume flying until further easing of restrictions is possible. We advise those affected in this way to monitor this page and wider government guidance for further updates.

[scifi]

It could be that he was a Post-Solo PPL student, where his instructor told him to do some circuits.
Not too sure if he would be allowed to do a short cross-country, as a local 'familiarising flight' just in case he got lost, even though FR24 might be able to track him.
Maybe the whole PPL syllabus needs changing, much the same as glider pilots in single seater gliders are allowed to venture out on their own.
.

[Herschel Krustofski]

The guidance maybe followed. One must not critise someone for adhering to the guidance.

The law must be followed.

​​​​So equally, one must not critise someone for adhering to the law where that law might be less limiting than the guidance.

​​​​​​​The law and the guidance are often being confused.
​​​​To quote a well known constitutional lawyer;

"The criminal law is what the law says, not what one thinks the law should be."

[chrisbl]

Likewise, what its is legal to do is not always the right thing to do either. Exercising ones rights and applying common sense often don't seem to go hand in hand in aviation.

[A and C]

The Two Metre rule is not a law, it is guidance.

[MrAverage]

So what's the actual difference between emergency legislation which is enforceable by the law (i.e. the Police) - which has resulted in fines - and the actual law? A chap on the Isle of Man was jailed for two weeks (I realise they have lots of differences to other parts of the UK).

Genuine question - no criticism given or implied - I'm just a bit ignorant of these things.

[A and C]

For the full details of the legislation on the public heath protection ( coronavirus) legislation you need to read the House of Commons human rights committee report of 08 April.

You May be ( or may not be ) surprised that Most of the so called rules are not laws or even rules and as usual the elf & safety types and little Hitlers of our society are creaming their pants at the chance of enforcing all sorts of rules they have invented.

the Isle of Man is not part of the UK and so has its own laws and due to the small health system has locked down hard, I needed to collect an aircraft from the IOM and this required government approval and adherence to some very strict laws ( not rules !).

[scifi]

The interesting thing with the Isle of Man is that they haven't had a detected case of Covid-19 for 24 days.
So it is almost safe to say that there are no Virus Particles left alive on the Island.
However this does not mean that life goes on as normal, they are still banning travel to the Island, in case any new virus is brought in.
.

[Radgirl]

the Isle of Man due to the small health system has locked down hard

I didnt read this as the reason. I thought it was because the IOM is a competently run jurisdiction that realised that leaving borders open as the UK did would lead to a pandemic. As scifi says, as a result

The interesting thing with the Isle of Man is that they haven't had a detected case of Covid-19 for 24 days. So it is almost safe to say that there are no Virus Particles left alive on the Island.

[A and C]

The fact that the IOM hospital has only four ICU beds was a major factor in the hard lockdown decision along with the disproportionate effect it would have on the islands economy should the virus take hold.

The decision to cancel the TT & MGP are major blows to the Manx economy So on pure economic grounds the island could not afford a pandemic.

As to the accusations levelled at the U.K. government I think that they have be3n much more open than some EU government’s and in three or so years when the academics have looked at the different reporting criteria across Europe you won’t find a great deal of difference in mortality rates.

[snchater]

As to the accusations levelled at the U.K. government I think that they have be3n much more open than some EU government’s and in three or so years when the academics have looked at the different reporting criteria across Europe you won’t find a great deal of difference in mortality rates.

I have first hand knowledge of the French medical system misreporting Working Time Directive figures and the Spanish medical system misreporting transplant donor figures.
I think it is naive to think that all European countries are as open and honest as the UK in their reporting of the Corona-virus .

[A and C]

A German friend called home a week or so back and his family said that they think there is a great deal of under reporting in Germany, I know this is a bit anecdotal but a picture is starting to emerge.

I don’t think this is dishonest under reporting just the use of different criteria, it would seem that in Scotland any death with a Covid19 aspect is being reported as a Covid19 death, one can’t help feeling that if you tested positive for Covid19 following being run down by a bus it would go down as a Covid19 death.

[Radgirl]

There are certainly questions over reporting and the different systems used in different countries. The public inquiry will determine the question of openness, which I was not discussing. What I was raising was competence. The IOM like New Zealand closed borders. Lockdown happened far earlier in NZ and, it can be argued, in the IOM. Many many things that should have been done in the UK which professionals were arguing for were not done and other things were done that clearly caused deaths. Track and trace, the app, PPE, care homes - the list is endless. I have lost friends and colleagues. The health of the UK population will suffer as a result for many years and total excess deaths will be well over 100,000. I do not intend to enter into a debate as to whether we did better or worse on this or that, and comparisons with other countries need far more in depth data analysis that is practical on this site. My belief is that many many people died and will die, and the economy will tank because politicians failed to do enough at the right time in the UK.

[TheOddOne]

Reality check - back to the OP's question...

Mostly, no, ab initio training for the PPL doesn't appear to have restarted. There is a rumour going around that 4th July will be the 'GO' date, but yet to be confirmed.
Meanwhile, we're not conducting ab initio training or dual checks but we ARE allowing selected pilots with proven experience to solo hire the Club aircraft. A few of them have taken members of their same household flying, no problem! I think most clubs and schools are taking the same stance.

Let's be patient and wait, it's not too long now.

All threads suffer from drift, but let's find another thread to discuss statistics and the rights and wrongs of government decisions around the World. What we COULD discuss here are the various methods different places are proposing for reducing the risk to student and instructor. I've been flying with my wife, also a pilot, trying out different face masks. The main problem seems to be fogging of spectacles. AOPA have circulated the Risk Assessments carried out at one place. I think we will all wind up making out similar, even though the detail might be slightly different. This might also be influenced by DfT guidance when it appears...

TOO

[Radgirl]

Spectacles only fog because exhaled air escapes from under the mask. A basic mask called a FFP1 which you are supposed to wear on public transport to avoid your droplets infecting others is not tight fitting and will fog

If in the future you are in close proximity and wish to keep yourself safe then you need a higher level mask called a FFP3 which creates a seal around the mask. Properly fitted it cant fog.

Many HEMS units use reusable rubber masks. You must ensure the filter is a P3 filer and not just a dust filter, but if both instructor and student wear one they are both safe from each other. You still need to wash hands especially after removing / touching the mask.

Of course this assumes there is still a risk of infection when training resumes

[S-Works]

We have resumed training in Spain for all licence and ratings. This is week three of being back. Full risk assessments and and mitigation’s carried out and accepted. We temperature check everyone twice a day and keep log. Proper cleaning, proper hand washing. Masks and gloves are pointless, they are for medical professionals taught to handle and dispose of PPE correctly. Mask are not meant to be worn for long periods and they also cause issues with CO2 retention which in a an aircraft at altitude creates further problems. Protection is done with good procedures before any flying is done.

At the end of the day it’s about personal risk assessment and what people feel comfortable with doing. It’s about deciding if you are in a high risk group and making choices accordingly. I have no issue at all with resuming teaching.

[Radgirl]

Sorry for my multiple posts, but the issue of virus transmission is important.

Masks are the most important method of mitigating transmission. Some studies suggest they reduce it by 70%, more than hand washing and spatial separation. Obviously most cabs are fairly leaky and there is good air circulation. Equally the incidence of the virus needs to be considered, as well as the risk to the instructor and student in terms of age, ethnicity and comorbidty. However many professional pilots and cabin crew are successfully using and working with masks. The reusable masks are easy to use because they do not need professional fit testing. I wear mine for 6 hours at a time and I am happy to answer PMs about various models and how to don / doff / test. CO2 retention is a new one on me and I cannot understand the physiology. The dead space created by a mask is insignificant, rebreathing is insignificant. Altitude should not increase CO2........S-Works please do send me any papers you have on that as I am genuinely interested.

Each person has to be comfortable with the precautions on their flight and S-Works' second paragraph is spot on. However it is not true to say masks and gloves are pointless.

[S-Works]

Sorry for my multiple posts, but the issue of virus transmission is important.

Masks are the most important method of mitigating transmission. Some studies suggest they reduce it by 70%, more than hand washing and spatial separation. Obviously most cabs are fairly leaky and there is good air circulation. Equally the incidence of the virus needs to be considered, as well as the risk to the instructor and student in terms of age, ethnicity and comorbidty. However many professional pilots and cabin crew are successfully using and working with masks. The reusable masks are easy to use because they do not need professional fit testing. I wear mine for 6 hours at a time and I am happy to answer PMs about various models and how to don / doff / test. CO2 retention is a new one on me and I cannot understand the physiology. The dead space created by a mask is insignificant, rebreathing is insignificant. Altitude should not increase CO2........S-Works please do send me any papers you have on that as I am genuinely interested.

Each person has to be comfortable with the precautions on their flight and S-Works' second paragraph is spot on. However it is not true to say masks and gloves are pointless.

Please see the attached link for starters on CO2 retention in surgical settings. Its shows clear reduction in O2 saturation and CO2 retention.

http://scielo.isciii.es/pdf/neuro/v19n2/3.pdf

There have already been auto accidents attributed to people wearing masks for long periods of time in vehicles and suffering from impairment due to Co2 retention. As a commercial diver specialising in rebreather systems I can give you chapter and verse on CO2 retention. Or you could just buy my books and make me some money..... ;)

Altitude does not increase CO2 retention, the side effect of CO2 retention is a reduction in O2 saturation levels and as the the altitude increases the partial pressure of O2 decreases which further exasperates the problem. Please read my chapter in European Instrument Pilot on the use of O2 in aviation for further reference on the effects of CO2 and reduced partial pressure of O2 on cognitive function.

Mask are a way of mitigating transmission by people who have the virus. However those people have no place being in the cockpit in a training environment in the first place and as a result we have put preventative measures in place that should prevent people with infection even getting airside. Mask are not needed in this environment and serve no real purpose and there is still no real evidence they are of any use outside a medical setting....

[Radgirl]

Sorry S-works this paper is complete rubbish. There are multiple things wrong with it, but it doesnt have any evidence about CO2 as the CO2 wasnt measured. We are talking about a barrier mask not the use of compressed gases. I am happy to discuss your other claims but this is not the time or place. People need clear advice which is that a FFP3 mask does not significantly effect gas exchange and is safe.

If you would like to tell me how to determine whether someone in my aircraft has the virus so they dont need a mask let alone how you prevent infected people getting airside, I will make you a rich man because the entire medical system in the Western World is struggling to achieve this so we can restart safe elective surgery and the airlines are folding because they have failed to do so. I apologise for disputing your claims but safety demands clear advice based on science.

[S-Works]

Sorry S-works this paper is complete rubbish. There are multiple things wrong with it, but it doesnt have any evidence about CO2 as the CO2 wasnt measured. We are talking about a barrier mask not the use of compressed gases. I am happy to discuss your other claims but this is not the time or place. People need clear advice which is that a FFP3 mask does not significantly effect gas exchange and is safe.

If you would like to tell me how to determine whether someone in my aircraft has the virus so they dont need a mask let alone how you prevent infected people getting airside, I will make you a rich man because the entire medical system in the Western World is struggling to achieve this so we can restart safe elective surgery and the airlines are folding because they have failed to do so. I apologise for disputing your claims but safety demands clear advice based on science.

Whats your qualification to refute that paper?

[flyingorthopod]

FFP3 masks come with significant respiratory effort and are really quite fatiguing to wear. After a couple of hours work in one I'm hot and knackered.

I wouldn't want to fly in one and I don't really see why it should ever be necessary - wearing a simple cloth face mask would reduce your risk of spreading the virus significantly. Just need to make sure it doesn't fog your glasses up.

[scifi]

What's your qualification to refute that paper?

Well it's the old 'Plot four random points on a graph trick.'.... Extrapolate the straight line to infinity, and we are all doomed.
.

[flyingorthopod]

There are some papers modelling CO2 retention with various sorts of mask but I've not found a really good one.

https://www.oatext.com/Evaluation-of-rebreathed-air-in-human-nasal-cavity-with-N95-respirator-a-CFD-study.php#gsc.tab=0

is a model paper showing significant re-breating of expired air with an N95 mask.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-55451-w.pdf?draft=marketing

is a paper in children looking at adding a micro fan to N95 masks and showing that in vivo this decreases CO2 rebreathing to nearly normal levels.


Consensus seems to be that FFP3 and other high-protection masks will increase CO2 retention and is is clear they have an effect on performance. However, as we don't even wear them in a medical setting with covid patients unless performing aerosol generating procedures I can't see any justification for aircrew wearing a surgical, N95 or FFP3 mask.

[S-Works]

Yep. Exactly what we arrived at and agreed by the various regulators we deal with.

[flyingorthopod]

Sorry for my multiple posts, but the issue of virus transmission is important.

Masks are the most important method of mitigating transmission. Some studies suggest they reduce it by 70%, more than hand washing and spatial separation. Obviously most cabs are fairly leaky and there is good air circulation. Equally the incidence of the virus needs to be considered, as well as the risk to the instructor and student in terms of age, ethnicity and comorbidty. However many professional pilots and cabin crew are successfully using and working with masks. The reusable masks are easy to use because they do not need professional fit testing. I wear mine for 6 hours at a time and I am happy to answer PMs about various models and how to don / doff / test. CO2 retention is a new one on me and I cannot understand the physiology. The dead space created by a mask is insignificant, rebreathing is insignificant. Altitude should not increase CO2........S-Works please do send me any papers you have on that as I am genuinely interested.

Each person has to be comfortable with the precautions on their flight and S-Works' second paragraph is spot on. However it is not true to say masks and gloves are pointless.


Curious which mask you have? We get 3m valveless jobs and 6 hours in one would be awful.

Valved masks would I presume be better for performance and fatigue but won't stop you spreading covid around.

There's a market for somebody to get rich with a mask or visor that is effective, comfortable, not fatiguing and works with a microphone

[Radgirl]

I am reluctant to post again as this thread was supposed to give advice to students and instructors and by descending into 'my qualifications are better than yours' it has just confused.

To answer your question flyingorthopod we are using a number of masks but my personal favourite is a 3M 7500 series with a P3 6035 filter. Comfortable all day, and not a single healthcare worker I know has complained of it being difficult to breathe, experienced symptoms of CO2 retention, nor decreased performance. If you can clip an aneurism in the brain under a microscope with no problem I suggest you can teach a circuit. You can fit a mic inside the mask.

Also, in an attempt to clarify matters:

the basic masks now mandatory, eg on UK public transport, prevent the wearer spraying virus onto others but do not protect the wearer

the masks we are now discussing protect the wearer but not others. In the NHS I have only seen valved masks - you breathe in via the filter and straight out via the valve.

the basic mask will not provide YOU with adequate protection in a small plane if the other occupant is shedding virus. We have no method of checking if someone is truly virus free other than a combination of tests including 14 days isolation, which is impractical. Many students are young and will remain asymptomatic. Hand sanitisation and cleaning surfaces is important. Barring people with symptoms or known contacts is sensible. But masks are the real protection. Fortunately the viral incidence in many countries is falling and if it continues to do so the risk too falls but everyone must decide their own comfort zone. Happy to take PMs

[flyingorthopod]

Thanks for that

All very sensible advice

In particular I think the public feel they have been advised to wear masks to protect themselves and I see lots of people wearing valved masks in shops which drives me absolutely bonkers!

[BDAttitude]

A German friend called home a week or so back and his family said that they think there is a great deal of under reporting in Germany, I know this is a bit anecdotal but a picture is starting to emerge.

Oh if it was only that simple.
At first they were underreporting significantly ... test capacity was low and only patients with known contact to confirmed cases were tested.
Then there was a phase of "honest" reporting because everyone with the slightest symptoms was beeing tested.
Followed by a phase of over reporting ... because they started screening people from the health sector, which led to infection rates beeing overestimated due to existing asymptomatic cases being discovered.
At the moment ... probably slight underestimation, light to moderate cases not being reliably diagnosed anymore.

Don't clinch to any numbers. Apply common sense.

[aviator2345]

When do people think flight training in the UK will be back? I'm trying to have a checkout ride so I can fly solo with my PPL

[Flyingmac]

When do people think flight training in the UK will be back? I'm trying to have a checkout ride so I can fly solo with my PPL

Know any instructors whose life insurance won't be worthless if they keel over after losing the gamble?

[TheOddOne]

I'm too old to need life insurance.

Flying at all in a light aircraft is taking a risk. Flying as an instructor presumably multiplies that risk, though it's mitigated by us flying is a structured way - fatalities while flying amongst instructors seems very low.. The chances of becoming seriously ill or dying from Covid-19 is an additional risk. Each of us has to make up our own minds as to whether or not we're
a) prepared to take the additional risk for the sake of the satisfaction and mental stimulus that instructing provides (it certainly isn't for the money!)
b) prepared to put our loved ones at additional risk if we pass on the virus due to flying when we might not otherwise have caught it.

A big factor seems to be the amount of viral load you're subjected to when you become infected. Anecdotally, it seems a low viral load means the body can be better prepared to develop antibodies at a low enough rate to defeat the virus without doing significant damage to organs along the way. In a cockpit environment, with someone who is asymptomatic or pre-symptomatic, the received wisdom is that the viral load is lower than someone with symptoms who is coughing and/or sneezing a large quantity of virus. Therefore a simple mask designed to reduce the broadcast of aerosols, as worn by surgeons who want to reduce the risk of infecting patients they're working on, ought to be sufficient. Both occupants need to wear the SAME type of mask. you can't have one wearing a mask designed to protect others and the other person wearing one designed to protect only themselves...

TOO

[MrAverage]

That's why I bought surgeon quality masks. They will be the only type used, hopefully soon!

[Herschel Krustofski]

That's why I bought surgeon quality masks. They will be the only type used, hopefully soon!

I hope that you have bought a few thousand.
Are you aware of the correct clinic protocol around mask usage? It runs to many pages.

And how will you dispose of this clinical waste? Have you provision for this?

​​​​Regular hand washing remains the only practical and the most effective counter measure to this and many other virus.

[S-Works]

I hope that you have bought a few thousand.
Are you aware of the correct clinic protocol around mask usage? It runs to many pages.

And how will you dispose of this clinical waste? Have you provision for this?

​​​​Regular hand washing remains the only practical and the most effective counter measure to this and many other virus.

Exactly! It is also what we were told by the relevant authorities when we submitted our risk assessments to restart. Same goes for gloves which also do nothing to stop transmission. Most people in the time they have been reading this will have scratched their face, picked their nose and stuck a finger in their ear............. Just wash your hands......

Your average Joe doe not know how to use PPE correctly or dispose of it safely. Its meant for short term wear and then be disposed of as clinical waste.

[S-Works]

Know any instructors whose life insurance won't be worthless if they keel over after losing the gamble?

Funnily enough we went through this when we were reopening and we got the lawyers to go and ask all the questions to ensure there was no wriggle room...... The answer is no it won't be worthless, once your policy is place thats it you are covered and dying from Covid is covered just fine. The employer is not liable under HSE regulations either and whole plethora of other stuff we had to ask in order to get the risk assessments agreed. It would be impossible to prove where you got the infection from for starters!!

But its a moot point, at my age my life insurance policy is long expired so I have lived with the risk long before the pandemic like a lot of people in the teaching end of aviation......

[jez d]

Given that other close-contact industries are reopening on 04 July (subject to no surge in reinfection rate), I think it's safe to state that PPL flight training will be allowed to recommence at the same time, but it may be in England only for the time being if the devolved nations aren't willing to follow suit yet.

Concerning facemasks, some ATOs are using them and some aren't. Heat is one factor that has deterred some from wearing them, and I've also heard the CO2 retention argument. As there is no way a school can 100% guarantee a coronavirus-free zone, I think the decision should be left to those sharing the cockpit.

Is anyone going to brave the trial lesson market in the near future? As a significant cash cow for the grass roots training industry, I can imagine that commercial pressure will play a part in this, but will it prove a step too far for instructors?

[Herschel Krustofski]

but will it prove a step too far for instructors?

I don't think it will, as instructors need to earn a living too and they are a pragmatic bunch.

I think that the restarting of premier league football should signal that flying instruction must restart. If it is OK for a minimum of 46 people (22 players 4 officials, 2 coaches 18 subs) to be in extremely close contact, it would be hypocritical to say a flying school, where one hopes contact will be less physical, couldn't operate.

England will eventually lead the way with Scotland trailing a few weeks behind, in order to maintain the veneer of independence.

Everything has been happening far too slowly. Politicians will argue that this is due to caution, and yet this caution is causing irreparable damage to health, the economy and society.

Fed up? Yes!
​​​

[kit344]

Slightly off topic, I recently saw a L Driving School car with 2 occupants, both wearing face masks.
I was driving in the opposite direction at the time, but it was definitely a commercial driving school car, not just a car with L Plates.

[Herschel Krustofski]

Interesting parallel discussion here:

https://www.pprune.org/flying-instructors-examiners/632368-can-ppl-cpl-ir-instructing-recommence.html

It terms of the driving schools I was looking at DVLA guidance, as well as news articles on driving schools for comparison which might lead the way in what will happen with flying schools. Unfortunately the comparison is stark, with a lack of official information and a feeling among driving instructors that they, and their businesses (and livelihoods), have been forgotten about.

[SWBKCB]

Slightly off topic, I recently saw a L Driving School car with 2 occupants, both wearing face masks.

Instruction (and exams) for key works is permitted. And I don't think footballers running around outside is the same as sitting side by side in a cockpit for an hour or so.

[S-Works]

I am stood on the apron in Sabadell in Barcelona and everything is running like normal. Flying schools are all busy and operating.

[Herschel Krustofski]

Instruction (and exams) And I don't think footballers running around outside is the same as sitting side by side in a cockpit for an hour or so.

As demonstrated by the weight of scientific evidence showing the increase risk of infection, especially upper respiratory tract infection, that athletes such as professional footballers are prone to.

Is that's what you mean?

Well done Spain BTW.