DL Retiring its 777 Fleet

[MichaelKPIT]

Ed Bastian this morning: “With international travel expected to return slowly, we’ve also made the difficult decision to permanently retire our Boeing 777 fleet — 18 aircraft — by the end of the year,” Bastian told staff. He said more “fuel-efficient and cost-effective” A330s and A350-900 planes, made by Europe’s Airbus will be used instead. “Retiring a fleet as iconic as the 777 is not an easy decision — I know it has a direct impact on many of you who fly, crew and service these jets.”

[Pilot DAR]

I'm sure that many people reading this know who DL is, and what company Ed Bastian works for. For what it's worth, I'm not one of those people....

[Oh gaim]

Delta ....

[DesiPilot]

Retiring 18 777's.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/771x1024/whatsapp_image_2020_05_14_at_12_22_53_a77dc98f880dda45f1e4d7 8d24a71ff7d01df584.jpeg

[ATC Watcher]

Interesting, they keep the 767s with are on average over 22 years old and get rid of the 777 which are only 15 years old. .But of course the number of aircraft are not the same ...

[Airbubba]

I'm sure that many people reading this know who DL is, and what company Ed Bastian works for. For what it's worth, I'm not one of those people....

I always feel apologetic about using those secret airline codes like SQ, CX, QF and BR here on the so-called Professional Pilots Rumour Network. It's an airline thing I suppose. Most non-Americans wouldn't be familiar with BK (but I think some of them are about to find out what it means :().

A scheduler thought that BR was based in London when she built an ad hoc deadhead back to base for me after a mechanical in Asia years ago. ;)

[Maxfli]

The crews on B767 (77 units) are less costly than those on B777 (18 units).

B763 (56) $296hr
B764 (21) $334hr
B777 (18) $354hr

[Check Airman]

Today isn't a good day for Delta. This announcement is actually the "good" news. According to this

https://news.delta.com/deltas-777-aircraft-retire-end-2020-simplifying-widebody-fleet-amid-covid-19

Delta will continue flying its fleet of long-haul next generation Airbus A350-900s, which burn 21% less fuel per seat than the 777s they will replace.

My bold. If the 777 is that much less efficient than the A350, how is Boeing still selling them? What am I missing here?

[lomapaseo]

If the 777 is that much less efficient than the A350, how is Boeing still selling them? What am i missing here?

One needs to consider ownership costs (maintenance etc.) balanced against re-sale values per aircraft model.

I got a car I would like to sell you cheap so I can afford my new car with no real maintenance costs, yet, and it also gets 20% better mileages.

Act now! don't let it go, fully guaranteed until next scheduled maintenance (which is next month) and requires removal of the engine for an update

[MichaelKPIT]

A scheduler thought that BR was based in London when she built an ad hoc deadhead back to base for me after a mechanical in Asia years ago. ;)

Well in all fairness, until 1987 BR was the code for British Caledonian...

[Airbubba]

Well in all fairness, until 1987 BR was the code for British Caledonian...

Didn't know that, thanks. She would sometimes ask me questions like 'What's the Zulu time over there in Narita?'

[tdracer]

Today isn't a good day for Delta. This announcement is actually the "good" news. According to this

https://news.delta.com/deltas-777-aircraft-retire-end-2020-simplifying-widebody-fleet-amid-covid-19

My bold. If the 777 is that much less efficient than the A350, how is Boeing still selling them? What am I missing here?

That's why the 777X is in flight test. The original 777 is 25 years old technology and two decades older than the A350.

[WHBM]

If the 777 is that much less efficient than the A350, how is Boeing still selling them? What am I missing here?
Because Boeing is not selling these versions of the 777 any more. Some are 20-year old 777-200s, and the ones 12 years old are the 777-200LR, long range version, a poor seller whose only advantage was on flights longer than Delta has in their network, and otherwise have higher seat mile costs. The 20-year old ones are likely coming up to an expensive D-check at some stage.

[NWA SLF]

Delta has projected lower passenger volume for a long time after the pandemic is over. Emirates has even stated the days of the A380 have been shattered, so it makes economic sense to get rid of the larger platforms. The 767 fits in with an A350 - A330 - B767 size structure by passenger volume per plane if Delta's projections say they can no longer fill a 777. I'm not current on Delta's plan for retiring the 767. I remember them stating they would be interested in being a launch customer of a Boeing NMA, but that was a few years ago and their current plan appears to get rid of anything without a side stick. Will they become an A321-XLR customer using that to fill the gap when they eliminate the 767 and 737-900ERs?

[procede]

The 777s could be easy to sell for freighter conversions.

[Airbubba]

In a related development, emphasis mine.


May 14, 2020 / 10:09 AM / Updated 3 hours agoDelta, others wrestle with too many planes, too many pilots(Reuters) - Delta Air Lines (DAL.N (https://www.reuters.com/companies/DAL.N)) moved to retire its Boeing Co (BA.N (https://www.reuters.com/companies/BA.N)) 777 fleet and reduce its pilot ranks on Thursday as it joins other airlines wrestling with the need to shrink their operations to match reduced air travel due to the coronavirus crisis.

After announcing that it would no longer fly its 18 wide-body 777s, Delta told its 14,500 pilots that it expects to have 7,000 more than it needs in the fall, according to a memo to flight operations employees first reported by Reuters.

“I recognize that is an alarming number so it’s important to know that our intent is to align staffing for what we need over the long term,” John Laughter [sic], S.V.P. of flight operations, said in the May 14 memo seen by Reuters.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-delta-air-pilots-e/exclusive-delta-to-have-7000-more-pilots-than-needed-in-the-fall-memo-idUSKBN22Q2B4

[Check Airman]

Thanks to the guys who explained the higher 777 cost

[BEA 71]

That's why the 777X is in flight test. The original 777 is 25 years old technology and two decades older than the A350.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/1_second_777x_first_flight_b96010bdeb8528319f6d5ec46fe933234 104435a.jpg

Second prototype taking off. Photo is courtesy of Boeing.

[norfolkungood]

Best Boeing hurry and get that puppy made....a lot of airlines with "expensive" 777s out there, including mine.

[NG_Kaptain]

Airbubba...
Don't feel apologetic about using the ICAO or IATA codes, after all this is a "Professional Pilots Rumour Network".

[mattyj]

777s are a hauler..especially the 300’s. All the pax all the freight all the fuel. (Almost :ok:) License to print money if you can fill them up (which is the current problem)

I heard someone say they had the best underfloor cargo capability in class.

[Loose rivets]

777 SLF-ing to Texas with BA, our captain explained that someone had stuffed a wooden crate in the hold and they were waiting to see if the wiring had be affected.

It had.

[LostWanderer]

The 777s could be easy to sell for freighter conversions.

Very true, I'd almost put money on the fact they already are sold or maybe have some deal pending.

[Drc40]

The power plants look almost as big as the fuselage! Damn...

[MichaelKPIT]

The power plants look almost as big as the fuselage! Damn...

The engines are WIDER than a 737/757 fuselage!

[tdracer]

Very true, I'd almost put money on the fact they already are sold or maybe have some deal pending.
Boeing in conjunction with Israeli Aerospace is developing a 777-300ER Freighter Conversion (777-300ERSF). But it's not scheduled to fly until the end of this year and certify in 2022.
Given the current environment, they may want to work to accelerate that schedule...

[lomapaseo]

The engines are WIDER than a 737/757 fuselage!

Is there an engine pix somewhere with six seats across and a trolly in the aisle

[Pilot DAR]

using those secret airline codes like SQ, CX, QF and BR here on the so-called Professional Pilots Rumour Network.

Yes, some codes are better known than others. Yes, I could look up DL, to find Delta. I've flown as a Delta passenger many times, I just don't have their code memorized, and would be more happy to see the full name in the title of a thread. And, about secret airline codes, I worked for WB here in Canada (not Rwanda) decades back: Three 707's, then four DC-8-63's, and two L1011's. The Air Canada ramp guys would tell me that "WB" stood for "Water Buffalo", but that wasn't it!

That airline was forced to end its service due to changes in the economy, so I can empathize with the airline's challenges these days....

[Airbubba]

I'm sure that many people reading this know who DL is, and what company Ed Bastian works for. For what it's worth, I'm not one of those people....

I always feel apologetic about using those secret airline codes like SQ, CX, QF and BR here on the so-called Professional Pilots Rumour Network. It's an airline thing I suppose.

Yes, some codes are better known than others. Yes, I could look up DL, to find Delta. I've flown as a Delta passenger many times, I just don't have their code memorized, and would be more happy to see the full name in the title of a thread.

I'd say that that most pax outside the U.S. are familiar with those codes in my experience. It's probably an international thing that folks who fly domestically in the U.S. don't see much. Once again, apologies for the technical pilot stuff on PPRuNe.

For example:

NRT (Narita, Japan - Near Tokyo)

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/852x480/lhr_24835e29327fc6da6796c96cb395006c8e897f17.jpg

LHR (London, England)

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1099/nintchdbpict000571701918_4b0654355381cea3935e21acb4878efe05e 07d92.jpg

CDG (Paris, France)

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x890/8560238518_692cc0572e_b_2_large__cb8867056c52e78f611bb599bc9 b1650ea779931.jpg

[misd-agin]

777s are a hauler..especially the 300’s. All the pax all the freight all the fuel. (Almost :ok:) License to print money if you can fill them up (which is the current problem)

I heard someone say they had the best underfloor cargo capability in class.
Almost. On our longest flight they pumped the gas until the plane wouldn't take anymore. Typically 312-315,000 lbs vs the 320,000 lbs advertised. Fuel was slightly warmer than 15C/59F. Sometimes we'd be capped at approx. 40-60 less passengers than full. Carry that much weight for 16 hrs wouldn't leave enough reserve fuel on arrival. We'd laugh if the takeoff weight was undr 760,000 lbs - "we're light. This baby is going to stand on it's tail and rocket out of here!" Needless to say reality was that we didn't rocket out of town on departure at that weight. Another saying "there is no 'pull the nose up to make a crossing restriction.' The more you pull the nose up the farther you'll miss the restriction by."

[Chris2303]

Airbubba...
Don't feel apologetic about using the ICAO or IATA codes, after all this is a "Professional Pilots Rumour Network".

And Google is your friend

[Springbok614]

I am writing under correction, but did Delta not make an extensive investment in refurbishing their 767 fleet’s interiors? Apart from the large fleet of 767 which they operate, that may also play a role?

[RAWLAW]

Delta has become Airbus Industries favorite customer and at this time I would bet Airbus gave Delta a sweet deal along with government sponsored savings based on the quantity of aircraft Delta has committed to. Knowing that Delta and the industry has excess capacity, for now, Delta probably did not want to eliminate one of the most popular and capable aircraft in their fleet but had no choice based on the numbers and the goal to maintain a newer fleet. This situation will test every airline management to make very tough and unpopular decisions. Next will be furloughs and pay cuts. There will be a lot of pain and disillusions as the various airlines, and travel industry, employees unwind their budgets to this reality. One moment there was unlimited prosperity and the next moment there was unemployment, not what all those new pilots and Flight Crew ever expected. Contract negotiations are going to be pretty rough.

[WHBM]

It always seemed the two small 777 sub-fleets at Delta were a bit out on a limb in their overall set of aircraft, so it's no real surprise they look to remove them. A number of 777-200s from the era of their first half of the fleet had already been scrapped by other carriers.

[Pilot DAR]

Don't feel apologetic about using the ICAO or IATA codes, after all this is a "Professional Pilots Rumour Network".

Sure. And there are professional pilots on this forum who have nothing whatever to do with airline operations (anymore), other than to ride as a passenger from time to time. It's fair enough to use codes in the discussion when most people understand the context. Using a code in the opening title of the thread will send some people to Google, where simply writing the three extra letters would have let everyone understand from the beginning without distracting the effort with a google search.

For those times I fly as a crew member (knowing that most of my professional piloting is solo), the pre takeoff briefing will include: "Is that understood?" meaning that the pilot preforming the briefing would like to assure understanding with the crew. I hope that professional effort toward effective communication can extend to posts, or at least the titles....

[SeenItAll]

My bold. If the 777 is that much less efficient than the A350, how is Boeing still selling them? What am I missing here?

What Boeing is still selling are the 777-300ERs, much more efficient on a CASM basis than the 777-200ERs and 777-200LRs that Delta has.

[nicolai]

The aircraft everyone loves for mixed cargo/pax ops is the 777-300ER - not the small predecessor 777-200s (ER/LR). Those are being replaced by either the 787 or the A350,

Of course, you have to have the cargo and pax volume. One of those is currently missing...

[PAXboy]

I guess Bastian used the term 'iconic' for the 777 to big up the crews. I have nerv thought of it as 'iconic'. It was just a very good, very big, twin. What i liked about it was that it was built 'old style' and any prangs it has been in show that it holds up very well.

[Airbubba]

One moment there was unlimited prosperity and the next moment there was unemployment, not what all those new pilots and Flight Crew ever expected. Contract negotiations are going to be pretty rough.

Looks like the Delta entry on the Alpa.org website is a few weeks out of date:

In 2019, the pilots helped fuel the company’s unprecedented run of profitability. During the summer, the pilot group flew record amounts of overtime, which enabled Delta to execute and capitalize on an aggressive flying schedule. The pilots’ continued leadership on the line fueled Delta’s stellar operational performance. As the company looks to continue to build its brand and create loyal customers, the pilots are proud to deliver a product that generates a revenue premium.

“We’re negotiating for a new pilot working agreement during the most favorable environment in Delta’s history,” said Schnitzler. “Delta is earning record profits, has built a diversified business model able to weather negative economic cycles, has the cash flow to invest in shareholders and joint ventures, and has dedicated employees willing to go the extra mile to maximize revenue and serve our customers.”

https://www.alpa.org/en/about-alpa/our-pilot-groups/pilot-groups/delta

[mattyj]

Yeah in response to the person who said get them converted to freighter, there is no such conversion at this time and if there was there’d be bookings until 2030 right now..and the Israeli conversion is only for the 300 as far as I understand. My airline tried to give our 200s back to the lessor but they didn’t want that in the current climate. The ones we own outright we enquired about mothballing in the usual boneyards, and they said join the back of the queue..no one wants them for parts and the boneyards will only take them if you pay exorbitant parking charges as they have more than they need.

[warbirdfinder]

Perhaps if Bastian had not been doing stock buybacks for the last 3 years ( 12 billion dollars worth) they would be in good shape economically. But as long as they want to line their own pockets with more millions they will keep doing stock buybacks. Same stupid stuff that Mullin did before 9/11

[frieghtdog2000]

Presently the entire BA 777-300ER fleet are operating continuously as freighters whilst the majority of the other fleets are in storage. I believe the seats are being removed from one or two to increase the capacity.

[procede]

Yeah in response to the person who said get them converted to freighter, there is no such conversion at this time and if there was there’d be bookings until 2030 right now..and the Israeli conversion is only for the 300 as far as I understand. My airline tried to give our 200s back to the lessor but they didn’t want that in the current climate. The ones we own outright we enquired about mothballing in the usual boneyards, and they said join the back of the queue..no one wants them for parts and the boneyards will only take them if you pay exorbitant parking charges as they have more than they need.
I thought the 200LR is basically the same airframe as the 200F. Converting a 200 should not be an issue, if you can convert a -300, as long as you can find airframes that are worth it (not too many hours and cycles) and there is enough demand.

[neilki]

The engines are WIDER than a 737/757 fuselage!
It's always fun when the new type you're training on has a bigger engine than the fuselage of your previous type

[tdracer]

I thought the 200LR is basically the same airframe as the 200F. Converting a 200 should not be an issue, if you can convert a -300, as long as you can find airframes that are worth it (not too many hours and cycles) and there is enough demand.
It's still far easier said than done - note that the 777-300ERSF program is ~30 months from launch to first deliveries. There is a lot of engineering and cert work that goes into turning a passenger aircraft into a dedicated freighter. I'm guessing they'd need to get commitments for around 10-12 conversions just to make the nonrecurring costs worthwhile.

It's always fun when the new type you're training on has a bigger engine than the fuselage of your previous type
I used to have a photo at my desk of a PW4084 on a cradle sitting next to a 737 (both from the front) - and there was no observable difference in diameter.
The GE9X fan is something like 18 inches bigger than the PW4084 :E

[Australopithecus]

It's always fun when the new type you're training on has a bigger engine than the fuselage of your previous type

The last flight in my log book before my 737-200 course was a glider, so yeah, I know what you mean.

[Una Due Tfc]

I thought the 200LR is basically the same airframe as the 200F. Converting a 200 should not be an issue, if you can convert a -300, as long as you can find airframes that are worth it (not too many hours and cycles) and there is enough demand.

For starters, the floor on the F is significantly stronger than the LR, then there’s issues like where is all the wiring, ducting, cables etc in the fuselage and will they have to be moved to cut the cargo door? P2F development programmes are not cheap. Before everything went to hell, it was looking like plenty of 77Ws would be exiting passenger service in the coming years as they were replaced by newer models. Freighters tend to max out on volume before weight, so the 77W is a more attractive candidate than the 200 models.

[RAWLAW]

Pretty sure you are correct. Outdated propaganda for sure.

[1000tolevel]

Not really related to the 777, but...
Can a DAL pilot be dual-qualified to fly a 737 one week then a 757 the next? What about Relief Pilots? THX.

[Airbubba]

Not really related to the 777, but...
Can a DAL pilot be dual-qualified to fly a 737 one week then a 757 the next? What about Relief Pilots? THX.

I don't know about Delta specifically but I think in general the answer is no. In the past some airlines allowed management pilots to be qualified on more than one aircraft type but as far as I know this practice has been abandoned in the U.S. for the last couple of decades or so.

Similarly, relief pilots will normally be qualified on only one major aircraft type in my experience.

But I may be wrong, after all the mergers over the years some interesting legacy procedures and practices still exist.

Some type ratings normally cover different variations of an aircraft with a similar cockpit e.g. B-757 and B-767, A310 and A300-600 and B-747-400 and B-747-8.

[bafanguy]

I don't know about Delta specifically but I think in general the answer is no.

1000tolevel,

Airbubba is correct. That'd be a BIG no-no at Widget Wonderland. Same for relief pilots

[Sailvi767]

Delta actually does not even have relief pilots like some international airlines. All pilots are fully type rated in the aircraft and landings are rotated amongst all pilots.

[1000tolevel]

That’s what I thought. Just stumbled upon this guy commenting on aviation news website saying he flies a 37 one day and a 57 the next. I knew it was very unlikely but had to check before calling him out.

[tdracer]

That’s what I thought. Just stumbled upon this guy commenting on aviation news website saying he flies a 37 one day and a 57 the next. I knew it was very unlikely but had to check before calling him out.
Are you sure he said "37" (or perhaps was misquoted)? Delta has taken full advantage of the 757/767 common type rating - regularly swapping pilots between the two.
It's been a several years now, but I was once seated next to an 'in transit' Delta pilot who flew 757s and 767s. He mentioned that he often didn't know if he was going to be flying a 57 or a 67 until after he arrived at the airport.

[Airbubba]

Are you sure he said "37" (or perhaps was misquoted)? Delta has taken full advantage of the 757/767 common type rating - regularly swapping pilots between the two.

I think just about every carrier that has both swaps pilots on either plane. However some pilots may not maintain overwater quals in a domestic domicile. Perhaps a moot point by now but is the B-764 a separate fleet at Delta?

And as I've commented elsewhere here, I've seen augmented crews done every which way over the years.

I ran into one of these larger than life guys a while back as I posted on another thread and I did some checking:

Years ago I ran into a guy who claimed to have flown for NASA, flown helos in the Army and F-4's in the Air Force. When I asked if he had any airliner time he said he had flown 727's, 737's, 747's, 757's, 767's and 777's and a few other non-Boeings. I started wiping off my shoes.

Somebody told me he was legit, I didn't believe it.

I looked up his FAA license.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1458x1081/stilly_65b8c727a5b252c21348a1d038282fffd11a8828.jpg

[Check Airman]

Not really related to the 777, but...
Can a DAL pilot be dual-qualified to fly a 737 one week then a 757 the next? What about Relief Pilots? THX.

As far as I know, no US airline allows this. 757/767, yes. Some management, or maintenance pilots, yes. But the average line pilot will only fly one type. The 767-400 is a different category as well.

Likewise for relief pilots. US airlines train you as either CA or FO. You'll be assigned the position on some flights (CA or FO, as appropriate) depending on what your bid preferences are.

[Anti Skid On]

Coming back to topic, Air New Zealand already announced their 5 772's are being retired and the 773's were going to be parked up, possibly to return. If they don't they'll be replaced with 787's. Seems to be a bit of a theme.

[Airbubba]

Coming back to topic, Air New Zealand already announced their 5 772's are being retired and the 773's were going to be parked up, possibly to return. If they don't they'll be replaced with 787's. Seems to be a bit of a theme.

Meanwhile, over at Emirates:

Sources also told Arabian Business the airline is considering laying off the majority of its A380 pilots, maintaining only 20 of its superjumbo fleet, to focus on the Boeing 777s instead.

https://www.arabianbusiness.com/travel-hospitality/446842-emirates-conducting-thorough-review-of-costs-as-speculation-grows-over-a380-future

[mattyj]

Coming back to topic, Air New Zealand already announced their 5 772's are being retired and the 773's were going to be parked up, possibly to return. If they don't they'll be replaced with 787's. Seems to be a bit of a theme.

well that’s sort of part of the reduce costs at all costs Walmart/standard business practice 21st century model. There’s a few problems with that plan a/ they’ve made approaches with lease firms and desert storage outfits about disposal of the 200s and they can’t get rid of them. Some have been bubble wrapped for long term storage at NZ airports now..parking fees have necessitated the 300s find work..it’s cheaper to run them at break even than pay parking fees. and..b/ the trouble with the 787 is that the issues with the rollers haven’t gone away and cargo is the white horse at the moment and the 78 can’t carry any

[Spooky 2]

As far as I know, no US airline allows this. 757/767, yes. Some management, or maintenance pilots, yes. But the average line pilot will only fly one type. The 767-400 is a different category as well.

Likewise for relief pilots. US airlines train you as either CA or FO. You'll be assigned the position on some flights (CA or FO, as appropriate) depending on what your bid preferences are.


I believe UAL pilots include the 767-400 in their 767 category bid?

[vikingivesterled]

the trouble with the 787 is that the issues with the rollers haven’t gone away and cargo is the white horse at the moment and the 78 can’t carry any

What exactly are the issue with the rollers on the 787?
Seems that Avianca are able to do cargo only flights in the passenger version, and have been for a month:
https://theloadstar.com/avianca-ramps-up-cargo-flights-on-passenger-aircraft-to-boost-capacity/ (text not picture)
https://www.aircargonews.net/airlines/etihad-cargo-to-operate-cargo-only-service-utilising-b787-10-passenger-aircraft/

[tdracer]

I believe UAL pilots include the 767-400 in their 767 category bid?
The 767-400 is included in the 757/767 common type rating. Yes, the flight deck is unique to the 767-400 (it's based on a 777 flight deck), but the layout is pretty much common (with bigger displays) and the procedures are common.
At one time, the plan was to extend the 767-400 flight deck to all new production 757/767, so keeping the type rating common was a high priority.

[mattyj]

The 78s don’t have good volume so can’t take larger sized pallets, and the problems with the rollers are the Rolls Royce (Trent) materials issues and also something to do with the bleed air system (or lack of) adds up to an engine that’s highly stressed and every issue they solve puts another part of the engine under stress. Also there’s an issue with resonance at some power settings. There’s a bunch in our company with EDTO limitations. The engine is fairly similar on the A350 and they’ve had the odd one go boof too.

[Spooky 2]

The 767-400 is included in the 757/767 common type rating. Yes, the flight deck is unique to the 767-400 (it's based on a 777 flight deck), but the layout is pretty much common (with bigger displays) and the procedures are common.
At one time, the plan was to extend the 767-400 flight deck to all new production 757/767, so keeping the type rating common was a high priority.

That's not what I meant TD. I was commenting on the fact that Delta, unlike UAL has a stand alone 767-400 category for pilots. They don't fly the 767-300 at all, just the -400. Where as I believe UAL comemingles the -300 and -400 flying and 757 as well. Agree the one type rating covers all the 767 models. There was abrief period where Delta expiermented with flying the 777 and 77-400 as a single category but for a host of reasons, that never got off the ground. I have never flown the -400 but have considerable experience in the 777 and 767 aircraft.

[Intruder]

The 767-400 is included in the 757/767 common type rating. Yes, the flight deck is unique to the 767-400 (it's based on a 777 flight deck)
I thought it was based on the 744...

[Airbubba]

I was commenting on the fact that Delta, unlike UAL has a stand alone 767-400 category for pilots. They don't fly the 767-300 at all, just the -400. Where as I believe UAL comemingles the -300 and -400 flying and 757 as well. Agree the one type rating covers all the 767 models.

And under some of the overseas licenses, the type rating is specific to the engine type as well. Some U.S. airline fleets have both Pratt and Rolls engines on their 757's for example. That would require two type ratings with some non-FAA ATPL's I believe. Or, is it a type rating with two engine endorsements?

Anyway, as I commented earlier, the separate Delta B-764 bid (and pay) category may be a thing of the past as moves are made to 'right-size' the airline in the downturn.

[Spooky 2]

I have never heard of that engine specific issue on any non FAA rating and where I worked and we were 98% non FAA training. If you can identify an authority that mandated this I would be grateful. I know that Canada for instance, has a separate type for 737 Classic and NG, if that's what you mean?

[Airbubba]

I have never heard of that engine specific issue on any non FAA rating and where I worked and we were 98% non FAA training. If you can identify an authority that mandated this I would be grateful. I know that Canada for instance, has a separate type for 737 Classic and NG, if that's what you mean?

One example, in the past at least, was the United Arab Emirates GCAA (was it maybe the DGCA at one time?). I've got a UAE ATPL from years ago with an A300-600 type rating. It specifies the GE engines. I was told that I couldn't fly an A6 registered A306 with Pratts (if there was such a plane) without an additional type rating. It was apparently a legacy of the old UK CAA licensing scheme. The technical test had useful questions like 'What colour is the light in the laser gyros?' and 'How many notches on the speedbrake quadrant?'

[MichaelKPIT]

Is there an engine pix somewhere with six seats across and a trolly in the aisle

Almost!


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/564x618/bd4abdc7fc5f8db6f0f32dd7847c6d25_c323ca6aaff9b209e99a96acfdd 6f4325bb93187.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/602x432/main_qimg_0c77a1eeda690bfc6c0c86959153ea89_c_0008ea06fcdf836 1787823adb9fb9b56a877dc3c.jpeg

[tdracer]

I thought it was based on the 744...
Nope. Large parts of the 777 flight deck were transplanted directly into the 767-400. The aisle stand/thrust levers are largely common, displays are largely common, etc.
Which, BTW, was easy to do because the 757, 767, and 777 all use the same flight deck structure (aka "Section 41"). That's why the nose profile of the 757 and 777 look a little odd (and why you step down into the 757 flight deck).

[Check Airman]

Nope. Large parts of the 777 flight deck were transplanted directly into the 767-400. The aisle stand/thrust levers are largely common, displays are largely common, etc.
Which, BTW, was easy to do because the 757, 767, and 777 all use the same flight deck structure (aka "Section 41"). That's why the nose profile of the 757 and 777 look a little odd (and why you step down into the 757 flight deck).

I never thought the 757 nose looked odd. It has the same flat-ish underside as the 320. It is odd that you step down into the 757 and up into the 767 though.

What exactly is this section 41 that you speak of?

[Airbubba]

What exactly is this section 41 that you speak of?

It's the cockpit area of Boeings since at least the 707. The equipment bay below has been called the 'lower 41' for over half a century.

One story of origin is that the compartment was numbered 41 on the original 707 drawings.

I was told years ago by a guy in a white hat that it started 41 inches behind the nose datum but that doesn't seem to be true for the other section numbers.

[tdracer]

I believe it's named section 41 because it started (probably at one time) 41 inches behind a datum near the nose of the plane. Or, so I was told many moons ago.

I don't know the origin, but I'm reasonably sure that's not it - Boeing calls all the fuselage bits "Section 4x" - e.g. the tail is Section 47/48.

[Airbubba]

I don't know the origin, but I'm reasonably sure that's not it - Boeing calls all the fuselage bits "Section 4x" - e.g. the tail is Section 47/48.

Thanks, I've already changed my story after thinking about the other section numbers. :ok:

[ATPMBA]

Ed Bastian needs to lookout for his 6 as a hot-shot startup will buy and use those 777's and flame him.

[Check Airman]

Ah so the entire nose area (forward of the L1 entry door maybe?) would be referred to as section 41 on the assembly line?

[Check Airman]

Ed Bastian needs to lookout for his 6 as a hot-shot startup will buy and use those 777's and flame him.

Maybe they knew something the rest of us didn't. US Airlines are parking 767's and 777's now.

Porter notes that the new Eastern is expected to acquire a fleet of several Boeing 767 and 777s, with at least five second-hand 777-200s joining in by May 2020.

https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/eastern-airlines-3-comes-back/

[DaveReidUK]

Ah so the entire nose area (forward of the L1 entry door maybe?) would be referred to as section 41 on the assembly line?

Boeing conventional fuselage section numbers (787 shown):

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/544x351/boeing_section_numbers_fb69704335fb087f786e54000ee126f140840 f60.jpg

[Check Airman]

Much appreciated. Thanks DaveReidUK

[Spooky 2]

FWIW, I Checked with a former associate who works Regulatory STandards at Boeing. He is not aware of any such present day requirements.