Virgin Atlantic

[rotorwills]

Seems like the right move. Hope they make it through, for our profession and also selfishly for my vacations.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

All 14 A330s? Perhaps it’s more that MAN will be all A330, probably four based?

[Level bust]

I realise it's subject to change, but the flight to Montego Bay from Heathrow in January, says it's an A330-300.

[zfw]

Well it would be surprising to see that many VS A330s at MAN, as there is quite a limited programme for about 5-6 A/C. That being said MAN is expecting 3 A330s over the next 3 days at atbout 1500.

[742-xx]

Regarding the immediate retirement of the 747s - I remember after 9/11 Virgin retired their fleet of 747-200s only to have to lease them back from Air Icelandic (?) when the predicted downturn wasn't quite as bad as predicted.
There's got to be a chance of history repeating itself here, surely ?
Here in the UK the lockdown seems to be slowly getting watered down. If this is reflected elsewhere and people are allowed to travel again perhaps they'll need the 747s back ?
A Farcebook group I'm in seems to be full of people who given the slightest chance will be off to Florida.

[Level bust]

Further to my last. I have flights booked to Orlando next April from Heathrow that I moved from this year. When I looked when they announced the new schedules it was down as a B787, it's now an A330-200.

[esscee]

In 10/11 months time that Orlando flight operating aircraft may well change more than once.

[Level bust]

You're probably right!

[fruitbat]

List of suitors for VS narrows...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-26/virgin-atlantic-suitors-narrow-with-clock-ticking-on-new-funding

[Tom Sawyer]

Regarding the immediate retirement of the 747s - I remember after 9/11 Virgin retired their fleet of 747-200s only to have to lease them back from Air Icelandic (?) when the predicted downturn wasn't quite as bad as predicted.
There's got to be a chance of history repeating itself here, surely ?

They were different aircraft. The retired aircraft were JT9 powered -200 (G-VIRG may have been the last one). The Air Atlanta lease ins were RR powered G-VCAT (?) and G-VRUM from memory......but get your point about unexpected recovery (hopefully) and under capacity to take advantage.

[farefield]

Ah yes, RAT and SCUM, I remember them well!

[B744IRE]

The classics were going within 6 months...7 years later the last one left.
A full B747-400 to Orlando has the same operating cost as an A330.
BTW...the basic weight of an A340-600 is 179.2T and the B747-400 is 177.4T and carries more pax/freight.

[Count von Altibar]

Looks like the A330 doesn't feature in the recovery plan after all. it's going to be B787/A350 only and if you're not on one of those types it's looking very dodgy unless you happen to be in the top 90 of the seniority list. A total bloodbath for the pilots at Virgin Atlantic seems to be the most severe reaction plan so far from airline management. Let's hope the virus weakens and scientists discover a vaccine soon maybe then things pickup in aviation and people will be offered their jobs back.

[zfw]

Source? Source?

[CABUS]

I believe 330’s are to start flying later in the year when the flights pick up but as they say, never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

[Oh gaim]

Source? Source?

From an internal memo

[xray one]

Count Von Altibar Quotes:

Looks like the A330 doesn't feature in the recovery plan after all. it's going to be B787/A350 only and if you're not on one of those types it's looking very dodgy unless you happen to be in the top 90 of the seniority list. A total bloodbath for the pilots at Virgin Atlantic seems to be the most severe reaction plan so far from airline management. Let's hope the virus weakens and scientists discover a vaccine soon maybe then things pickup in aviation and people will be offered their jobs back.

Yet again you're talking utter bo!!ox.

VAA are planning on 10 A330s when the market allows, and they have put on hold a number of A350 orders along with the NEOs due next year. Yes, times are so difficult for the pilots not in the 'safe zone' (along with many airlines). It really doesn't need false reporting from trolls like you who have only a small percentage of the information.

Looking back at your previous post from old, it looks like you applied for VAA and didn't get in...I wonder why?

[oldchina]

B744IRE

"A full B747-400 to Orlando has the same operating cost as an A330"
from the ad agency that brought you WIZZO WASHES WHITER

[Maxfli]

I don't think so..............10T/hr @ .86 vs 6T/hr @ .82

[peacheyglobes]

B744IRE
"A full B747-400 to Orlando has the same operating cost as an A330"
Is this a per passenger calculation? And does it take into account cargo?

[Riskybis]

Not going to pretend it’s all roses .
Virgin have completely destroyed seniority and any loyalty ! No more 750hrs , min rest downroute etc....
just awful ! And by the looks of things the whole U.K. industry has taken a downturn! I used to commute and that was the only viable option ! Change of career me thinks ....... (don’t even care if I get kept on or not the new hours will literally kill you over 10 years )

[Whitemonk Returns]

Could you elaborate further for those on the outside?

[sangiovese.]

I don’t really think that it’s needs elaborating for others to comment on from the outside for their pleasure. Give it time as people are losing an awful lot across all the airline industry, pilots CC engineers and so on

[Whitemonk Returns]

I respectfully disagree, I take no pleasure out of any of this but keeping it private is helping nobody but Virign management.

[there she blows]

of course you are trying to find some kind of pleasure from hoping other airlines suffer, standard jet2 ism.
Why can’t you lot just accept this is affecting all companies and quit the one upmanship.

[Whitemonk Returns]

Absolutely ridiculous comment, sounds like you must get the same disastrous PR training as your hero Branson. Best of luck to all pilots in these times. ✌️

[turbine100]

This week many Virgin staff find out if they are at risk or being made redundant.

Not a good week and best of luck to all of those affected.

[Flightrider]

Unhappy tidings delivered today to a great many good people at Virgin Atlantic, particularly on the 747 fleet.

42 senior people took voluntary severance recently, and their actions will undoubtedly have saved an equivalent number of jobs for those further down the seniority list. It's disappointing to see that more than a few, many with very little time left to run, cannot find a similarly altruistic trait within themselves. Despite the significant benefits enjoyed over a great many years and pension pots long since hitting the lifetime maximum allowance - so a modest sacrifice, in the wider scheme - their decision to remain today has left others with far greater dependence on their income without a job or livelihood tomorrow.

My abiding memory from a management role in another airline at the height of the 2008/9 downturn was of a small pilot cadre coming in to see me one day with a clear message. Hugely experienced and excellent operators all, they said that if redundancies were to become necessary in the airline, I should simply say so and they would resign there and then. They said they had had their time; reaped the benefits of a long career in aviation and were still flying because they enjoyed it; but would never ever stay if it meant putting colleagues out of a job, denting their careers and leaving them unable to support their families. I did not have to take up their offer, but their words have remained with me since. I simply wish that those who are able to make that same sacrifice today (and, for many reasons, it is not a universal ability based purely on age) could live up to that example. Many have, and for those who have been able to do so, it will be to their eternal credit.

[Bravo Zulu]

So sorry to hear of Job losses. Fingers crossed the good times arnt too far away..

Has there at least been a re-hire type agreement if things pick up quicker than expected?

[B744IRE]

Flightrider has ASSUMED the senior pilots have got huge pension pots but after years of adding 10% to the 15% my pot was nowhere near the figures he quotes. ASSUMING they have reached the maximum...what pension does that buy in the current climate? You will be shocked. I have just had a statement from my drawdown pension provider to inform me my pot has dropped 35%. You might ASSUME I could sell the house and reduce my overheads but my family want to stay put...so I am still working at 68 and enjoying it...retirement sucks.

[CaptainDash]

I read it differently in that those who did take the vr should be applauded. That shouldn’t necessarily be taken as a slur on all those that didn’t.

Flightrider suggested that only those that were able, to consider it, since as you’ve pointed out everyone’s circumstance is different regardless of age/rank. I agree with you it’s quite shocking how little an apparent healthy pension pot will actually provide.

More generally we are going through a strange time of wider baseless indignation and maybe a calmer approach would serve us all better..

[kcockayne]

I applaud such people, but every case is different. At the end of the day everyone must do what needs to be done from their viewpoint. Every viewpoint is different. What can be done is a massive joint effort with maximum co-operation & commitment between management & staff designed to keep as many as possible in a job. Extremely difficult, I know. I could add the Government to that.

[autothrottle]

Flightrider

Learned to fly with many at Virgin and on the 747. Devastating times. Seen this situation before but in a separate organisation , it’s sad that those people close to the finish line don’t hand the baton over before the finishing line. Good luck to all at VS.

[Longtimer]

Seems to me that those who worked many years etc and are now close to their needed finish line should carry on and reach it. Stopping short does nothing for them and likely not a heck of a lot for those wanting to fill their vacancies (I bet there are 10 times more waiting in line than there are pilots who can afford to step aside early).

[Kirks gusset]

The fairly comprehensive proposal for redundancies mentions possible down grades, one assumes when/if things pick up they will be the first be to reinstated to their old ranks, i.e. SFO back to Captain etc etc . How does this work if a person ha just done an A350 course and was for instance previously on the 747 or 787?
Are there any plans to keep people in the "pool" current or just swimming until the climate changes?
By all accounts difficult times for both management and crew.

[back to Boeing]

By all accounts difficult times for both management and crew.

Difficult times for management? I just spat out my weetabix I laughed so hard. It’s every single Christmas, New Year, Easter, Birthday, Hanukkah and tooth fairy come at once for management in the aviation industry. Permanently trash T’s and C’s and make those remaining so grateful for a job that they wouldn’t dare kick up a fuss for years to come.

[Wickerbill]

Yes, for sure management aren't ****ting themselves about keeping the company in business, keeping their own jobs and keeping the shareholders and bankers on side. Cos it's all plain sailing running an aviation company at the moment.

No Christmas, birthday or tooth fairy, just fear like everyone else.

[alland2012]

Not staff and their future related.
Sad and exciting at the same to time to see G-VLIP leave Manchester for the last time this morning..hats off to the pilots on board for the "wing wave" on the climb out.

[Count von Altibar]

Watched a YT video of it, really nice touch with the wing wave!

[dubaiwarrior]

Have you heard of the Trent 1000?

[byrondaf]

On the other hand if you'd had an all 737-Max fleet, in hindsight you'd have probably been thinking it would have been a good idea to have a mix! At least they're down to 3 types now rather than 5.

[Lordflasheart]

...
Word on the street now is that Virgin Atlantic has gotten themselves so short of pilots they can't cover the limited work already scheduled for July and are having to phone round to see if there's anyone left in the company who is qualified and willing to work during their annual leave, in order to cover their existing commitments.

...

[Heathrow09L]

Well if that’s true then surely it would be good for the pilots they made redundant, maybe call them back and end the misery they must be facing? I obviously don’t know what agreement was reached with VS and the redundant pilots, but in any event hopefully they can return back to flying as VS now seems more stable and are ambitious in resuming their schedules.

[Superpilot]

Always a tricky metric this pilot and cabin crew firing number. And airlines always over do it.

[Right Way Up]

Virgin ballsed it up after September 11 as well. Not a surprise.

It’s what happens when you let accountants and HR take over a company.

[Atlantic Explorer]

Can’t seem to recall any published numbers of redundancies recently. How many actually got the boot?

[rotorwills]

I don't believe they have canned anyone as yet. Certainly not seen any published.

[Riskybis]

i think it’s in the 300 region , and as rotorwills correctly said they are all provisional at the moment , not confirmed

[Lordflasheart]

...
A few volunteers have already left. Otherwise Virgin have apparently just started into the process for confirming their individual compulsory pilot redundancies. In early May the media suggested upwards of 400 to go, now talking more like 300 or so as Risky says. There's a company 'red line' of 550 to remain, whatever that means. I don't know if the figures add up.

Apparently all 787 and A350 pilots will be kept on, so the compulsories are all from the other fleets. You then have to be a certified good boy or girl to be allowed into the holding pool.

The surprise July shortage seems to be because too many 787 and A350 pilots have been furloughed. One wonders if the same will apply to August ?

Really sad, isn't it ?
...

[Riskybis]

the whole thing has been an absolute disgrace to the loyalty of the pilots , I understand that the prime objective was to save the company .
But I’m sure they could have used less aggressive tactics , they have also expressed that the T&Cs will not change when the good times return ! They even wanted no union reps in future negotiations!!

[Count von Altibar]

Looks like crunch time is coming for the deal to keep Virgin Atlantic flying.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-virgin-atlantic-targets-900m-rescue-deal-within-days-12015887

[Lordflasheart]

...
Having c***ed up their numbers so they had to ask pilots to give up their leave in July in order to fly the committed program, it must have been an unsuccessful appeal because apparently Virgin Atlantic are now asking pilots to volunteer to work on their days off because they are still short. Or perhaps the problem has shifted to August.

While they have pilots sitting at home and are short on the line, they still seem determined to unload some 300 to 400 pilots - or only keep 550 - whatever this week's crystal balls-up says.

If they're that short, a pilot recruitment advert in the back of Flight Global might attract some takers.

Any news on the crowd-funding appeal mentioned in Count von A's link above ?

...

[virgin mary]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/daviddawkins/2020/07/03/billionaire-branson-back-from-the-brink-virgin-group-moves-closer-to-13-billion-needed-to-rescue-empire/

[GKOC41]

Lordflasheart

Have VS got rid of any A350/B787 Pilots?
If so was the leave allocation a mess left with what was approved pre CV19
I understand the bid for crews to offer up leave came from day to day Crewing - was this the norm pre CV19 times e.g. open time trips
Did all the decked 787's due to RR problems all of a sudden get engines and a load of flying
I can't fathom the c**ked up the numbers - in general terms each aircraft is x crews per aeroplane. Even with my dodgy maths I could work it out.
Unless they dipped below the required establishment out of fear. TBH can't see many crews going on holiday I might be wrong.

No easy answer just crap times

[aussieizborn]

Chatting to a mate of mine it seems what lordflasheart says is what is happening. Apparently there are pilots with over 15 years of loyal service being made redundant. It is ironic as these are from the 747 and 330 fleets who have been the crews working hardest the last few years with the 787 engine issues. They are now being discriminated against by being on the wrong fleets although I admit Virgin has to put it’s survival first. Also I wondered why Virgin did not consider the airbus mod to remove economy seats from the 350 and 330 and install freight pallets on the floor for easy loading and effective restraint. I gather this almost doubles the freight capacity.

[stormin norman]

Not a lot of high value freight goes through a passenger door .A fully loaded passenger aircraft with cabin freight might just break even.

[Longtimer]

AirCanada is operating several now and evidently doing well enough to ask and receive CTA permissions to increase the number of countries they can provide "all cargo" service to.
https://www.cargoforwarder.eu/2020/06/14/a-phenomenal-cargo-and-maintenance-team/

[Maxfli]

It would appear that a deal has been put together, with great number of moving parts (if this article is accurate).
https://www.aerotime.aero/valius.venckunas/25394-virgin-atlantic-seals-new-rescue-deal-narrowly-escapes-collapse

Very best to all at VS.
We are all very much still in the woods with worse to come.

[buddingavgeek]

FT confirming the deal today:

"Shai Weiss, chief executive, told the Financial Times shortly after the deal was signed off on Tuesday that the rescue plan was a “major achievement” that most people “probably thought . . . impossible”. “We’re planning for forever,” said Mr Weiss in his first interview after agreeing the deal. “This is not a plan for another plan . . . our job has been to take a very severe look into 2021 specifically. We funded the plan for the worst case rather than best case as you would expect us to do.” The rescue package will inject about £1.2bn into the airline over the next 18 months, with £200m of cash from Richard Branson’s Virgin Group and £170m of debt funding from US hedge fund Davidson Kempner Capital Management. It will also include £400m of fee deferrals from shareholders, Virgin Group and Delta Air Lines, which owns 49 per cent, as well as agreements with credit card companies to unlock cash and a cost-saving programme that will involve 3,550 job cuts"

[srjumbo747]

Aussieizborn....The 747 guys were flying less than the other fleets so your info is flawed, sorry.
Also edited to add, I think CABUS beneath me means flawed not floored?

[CABUS]

I would suggest that small part of the message MAY be floored, but the rest remains solid.

[Lordflasheart]

GKOC - I gather Virgin Atlantic is trying to keep hold of all their B787 and A350 pilots and dump as many of the others (747 and A330) as they can get away with, using a legally questionable de-merit matrix. However a number of 787 and A350 pilots may have been put on some kind of furlough which is apparently why these 'temporary and unforeseen' shortages have occurred.

All according to a couple of tame but somewhat disaffected VS A330 pilots in our village, who had had a couple of beers or two when this was being discussed and thought they were rather poorly placed. One thinks he is going to lose his command, the other, his job.

I don't think there are many 787s still 'AOG for engines' anywhere, though apparently there are some additional Rolls Royce 'mitigations' still working their way through the system.

Stormin' - My understanding is that 'pax aircraft being used as freighters' originated with bringing vast quantities of PPE (in manually-loaded seat-bags and cardboard boxes) from Asia, which the folks thought was going straight to save the NHS. That may be the case now, but it was certainly not at the time of Robert Jenrick's 84 tonnes of whimpering Turkish Delight in mid-April.

...

[Count von Altibar]

Looks like the UK CAA are calling time on Virgin Atlantic not coughing up refunds. Let's face it they're not the only ones who've been at this, I reckon nearly all airlines have been practicing holding the money.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-53595739

[MPN11]

As a “compare and contrast“, we had a BA Holidays booking to Antigua for next month.
27 Jul ... ANU flight cancelled (major l/h rescheduling)
28 Jul ... BA Hols email saying they would be refunding total cost (flights + hotel) but might take a week or so due to demand.
29 Jul ... My Amex account credited with the full refund.

If the much-criticised BA and its creaky IT setup can achieve that, I have zero sympathy for VS.
BTW, that’s our 3rd painless and swift BA cancellation refund since C-19 kicked off.

[Pistonprop]

Not a lot of high value freight goes through a passenger door .A fully loaded passenger aircraft with cabin freight might just break even.

But I guess that currently most airlines would settle for "break even".

[3Greens]

Jet2 refund back In account within 48hours of the holiday being cancelled.

[stormin norman]

If the refund fiasco is true, then it sounds like financially, there looking into the abyss.

[reverserunlocked]

Lufthansa told me up to three months to refund when they cancelled my FRA-DMM flight in early March. Got fed up by mid-June and did a credit card chargeback so the money was back in my account within 48 hours.

My parents had to resort to chargebacks to get a refund from EZY who charged them again IN FULL for rescheduling their cancelled flights and were impossible to contact about refunding the original fares. Very poor show.

[Maxfli]

Still no sign of 2019 Accounts.

[fruitbat]

Deal not complete yet and cash reserves running low.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-04/virgin-atlantic-seeks-rescue-signoff-to-avoid-september-collapse

[Airbubba]

Reports of a bankruptcy filing in New York.

Richard Branson's Virgin Atlantic is the second Virgin airline to declare bankruptcy as pandemic rips apart the industryDavid Slotnick (https://www.businessinsider.com/author/david-slotnick)
37 minutes ago

Richard Branson's (https://www.businessinsider.com/category/richard-branson) Virgin Atlantic (https://www.businessinsider.com/category/virgin-atlantic) airline filed for Chapter 15 bankruptcy in New York on Tuesday.
The airline, which only flies long-haul international routes, suspended passenger flights in April due to the coronavirus pandemic (https://www.businessinsider.com/category/coronavirus). It resumed flying passengers in July, despite little demand for international travel.
The airline, which is 49% owned by Delta (https://www.businessinsider.com/category/delta-air-lines), has cut more than 3,000 jobs, retired some planes, and closed bases to cut costs during the pandemic.



https://www.businessinsider.com/virgin-atlantic-bankruptcy-coronavirus-pandemic-2020-8

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1196x449/virgin_atlantic_02ce0867fd5bf82b8e3f4147db6272f9bb74fef4.jpg

More on Chapter 15 bankruptcy for the sea lawyers here:

https://www.uscourts.gov/services-forms/bankruptcy/bankruptcy-basics/chapter-15-bankruptcy-basics

[NormanDLandings]

Hopefully this is just precautionary but at TCX we were told it was business as usual and perfectly normal when they did this 2 weeks before they went into administration.

[Airbubba]

From my past experience at Pan Am and other places 'business as usual' = 'the end is near'. :sad:

[Count von Altibar]

I just cannot see a way out of this for Virgin Atlantic. Heavily weighted on the North American market coupled with long haul only operations and a worsening global pandemic crisis. Who's going to book seats now this news is out, very sad times indeed.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8593311/Virgin-Atlantic-billionaire-Richard-Bransons-second-airline-file-bankruptcy.html

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/breaking-virgin-atlantic-files-bankruptcy-22470022

[BBK]

Let’s hope your wrong Count. Save the crocodile tears.

[virgin mary]

Sorry to rain on your parade Count, I know how happy Virgin’s demise would make you, but Chapter 15 means bankruptcy protection, and this is all part of the recapitalisation announced a few weeks ago. We are in very stormy water at the moment, but we can and will weather it!



Virgin Atlantic Files Chapter 15 Petition to Aid U.K. Rescue
By Josh Sauland, Claire Boston Bloomberg
August 4, 2020, 8:22 PM GMT+1 Updated on August 4, 2020, 9:12 PM GMT+1

Richard Branson’s airline works on a consensual restructuring
The company faces a cash crunch if it can’t get approval



Richard Branson’s Virgin Atlantic Airways Ltd. filed for Chapter 15 bankruptcy protection in the U.S. on Tuesday after telling a London court it was set to run out of cash next month if a pending rescue deal isn’t approved.

The airline filed its petition in the Southern District of New York. Chapter 15 allows foreign companies with U.S. assets to protect themselves against claims while they work on a turnaround plan at home.

The company had said during proceedings in the U.K. that it planned to apply for the U.S. protection while it finalizes a rescue plan that’s already supported by a majority of its stakeholders. Virgin is seeking to secure a a 1.2 billion-pound ($1.6 billion) rescue, which was announced in July.

Read more: Virgin Atlantic Seeks Rescue Approval as Cash Running Out

Airlines are under pressure as travelers shun flights to avoid exposure to the coronavirus. At least four U.S. regional airlines have gone bankrupt, and revenue at carriers with vast international networks could see sales plunge 66% this year, according to a Bloomberg Intelligence report.

Since Jan. 1, Virgin’s reservations are down 89% year-over-year and demand for the second half of 2020 is at approximately 25% of 2019 levels, according to court papers.

“The group and its business have been adversely affected by the ongoing Covid-19 pandemic, which has caused an unprecedented near-shutdown of the global passenger aviation industry,” according to the court papers. “Global aviation was one of the first industries to be impacted by the Covid-19 pandemic and is likely to be one of the last to fully recover.”

Virgin’s restructuring plan in the U.K. depends on the approval of its Chapter 15 filing in the U.S., the company said in its court filing. Without the plan, there’s uncertainty as to whether Virgin could get enough creditor support to implement its restructuring in time to avoid going into formal insolvency proceedings, according to the filing.

“Because VAAL has material assets and operations in the United States, the recognition of the English proceeding and enforcement of the sanction order and the plan through Chapter 15 of the bankruptcy code are necessary to ensure that the plan is effective and binding,” the filing states.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

UK Media is splashing big tonight on Virgin being bankrupt, with a small print caveat. With their core US market closed from April and no sign of the US opening up meaningfully for the forseeable future and with no summer to bank and the toughest trading winter on the North Atlantic in living memory approaching..... Even the mighty IAG are burning cash at a now alarming rate and with a B787 and A350 fleet to keep paying leases on, any restructuring will have to be extensive. There’s 3 new A350s at Toulouse for VS that they now have no need for at all.

[MichaelKPIT]

In 1987, as a fresh faced youngster at BA, I would have been delighted to read this. Thirty three years later, older and a lot wiser, this breaks my heart. Genuinely wishing everyone involved all the very best. I have a huge respect for everything you’ve accomplished.

[sangiovese.]

Seriously sloppy journalism seeking blood in a story when if they read the court procedures properly they might understand. but that doesn’t sell newspapers does it?

[autothrottle]

Ridiculous that a lot of ‘news’ outlets are saying Virgin Atlantic filing for bankruptcy. Clearly no understanding of the court procedures to help them reorganise in preparation for restructuring and refinancing.
However, Virgin Atlantic need to make as much use of social media and their PR machine as possible, before this inaccurate reporting snowballs out of control.

[Andy D]

Yeh, but perhaps Virgin's PR team should have been ahead of the game and explained it better

There's a useful summary here https://www.headforpoints.com/2020/08/05/court-filings-reveal-the-full-details-of-virgin-atlantics-rescue-plan/

[Atlantic Explorer]

Indeed, the genie is out of the bottle now, no going back. Was the same for Monarch, TC et al. Shame.

[LGW Vulture]

Andy D

I like this little snippet from that report:

"One aircraft engine will be removed from the overdraft facility. This will allow the airline to use it as security for a further $30 million loan. (Yes, aircraft engines are so expensive – around $50 million in fact – that you only need one as security for a $30m loan!)"

I know the media and aviation are not the best bedfellows - but this takes some beating!!

[Speedbrakes Up]

It is pure media spin, and this coverage will only have an impact for a couple of weeks, then the announcement that the £1.2 billion rescue package has successfully gone through the courts will hit the headlines.

Perhaps then the traveling public will then see Virgin as a safer bet, who knows.

This is a different time, compared to the demise of MON, and TCX, the vast majority of long haul airlines routes are still suspended due to boarders being closed, or quarantine restrictions that a holiday maker would not be willing to face.
When it was announced for TCX and MON the market was still going, holidays makers were still flying, they had other options for there hard earned holiday cash.
But now, which airline is a safe bet for next years holiday?
Also who wants to go around Disney with a family of 4 wearing a mask all day in 35 degree heat, in a humid country.

Virgin is not out of the woods yet, infact no airline is, this winter is going to be tough for everyone, as the bumper summer cash reserves will not be there.
But at least Virgin has a medium term future with this bail out.

I wish everyone working for any airline, good luck and all the best, because were all going to need it.

[Landflap]

MichaelPit; Agreed. Many of have been around to see the lot. Eagle,Courtline, Channel,Monarch, plus all the mergers/failures. I was in Air Europe when they went down and many of us lined up to join VS. All recent events reminds all of us that aviation is like that.Upturns, downturns, but, this period is far more challenging and I too wish all at VS a healthy outcome to your personal lives.What is painted on the side of a aeroplane has no relevance at all, now.

[autothrottle]

Totally. They will survive, I’m sure. I have even booked a flight to Miami for April. Aviation has always been cyclic, but this cycle is a bit bigger. Good luck to all at Virgin.

[t1grm]

I've just had my holiday to Antigua in October cancelled for the second time. VS cancelled the package holiday from LGW I booked in January back in June because they shifted the flights to LHR. So I rebooked from LHR flight only and found my own hotel. Now they've just cancelled the LHR flight.

The thing is I can find no record of VS ever operating a LHR to ANU service since COVID. Makes me wonder if it was just a phantom route to generate some cash flow. Meanwhile I'll probably have to rebook for a third time on the BA service and I'm now waiting on two refunds from VS.

I'm determined to take this holiday. The irony is there's no travel or quarantine restrictions between UK and Antigua right now. The problem is finding me an airline to get me there!

[Airclues]

The problem is finding me an airline to get me there!

BA are commencing LGW-ANU service on 19/8/20

[Boeing 7E7]

You could always try TUI!

[3Greens]

BA have been flying to ANU for a week

[stormin norman]

In the BBC news again for not paying refunds. How much cash do they have left ?

[Riskybis]

Supposedly if bookings don’t improve by Jan , then they will shut down the business and re emerge as Virgin mk2

[Count von Altibar]

That makes a lot of sense to me as things aren't getting any better for now, make a comeback then under a different guise when this whole pandemic abates. The current setup is just unsustainable, not just just for Virgin Atlantic but many airlines.

[dc9-32]

Virgin Atlantic already has another company up and running under the name Virgin Atlantic International Limited.

[DaveReidUK]

Incorporated in 2015, so not a reaction to recent issues.

[dc9-32]

who said it was a reaction ?

[DaveReidUK]

Nobody did - just removing the risk that anyone might jump to that conclusion. :O

[Landflap]

VS saved according to yesterday's Money Mail section of my fave newspaper. Ricky coughing up 200 mill of his "own" money and some other 125 mill of other investors money through very clever accounting and re-scheduling of loans etc. Job done and all back to previous levels of activity by 2023. Very pleasing in these challenging times. Take noet BA, it is as easy as that.

[4engines4longhaul]

If only it is really that simple Landflap

[macdo]

Looks like the fleet is embarking on an adventure to Pakistan from December. That'll be nice.....

[Maxfli]

December is 14 weeks away.
Great that the DKCM deal has been approved for VS, unfortunately unless revenue picks up for all, a lot more of us will be squawking UB40 by then.
Not one legacy carrier is safe in the current environment.

[CW247]

Direct compo with BA as they've just announce LHR-Lahore. Whoever provides the better product will win the hearts and minds of the Pakistani community. I know most Pakistanis are fed up of PIA so it could work. :uhoh:

[TCAS FAN]

Especially as they can get a drink onboard!

[BBK]

macdo

Nicer than the dole queue!

[Go4PoweredDecent]

PIA banned from European Airspace pending clearing up their licensing issues for crews.
A Turkish Carrier already has the contract with PIA to carry their passengers in and out of Pakistan and Europe through Turkey.
It’ll only be a temporary arrangement until things get smoothed out.

[macdo]

BBK

With a heavy heart I suppose I have to agree since I'm on the dole queue. But even if I saw this as means of staving off the UB40, I would still not be thrilled to be rostered to a destination where security is so very questionable. It is a sign of management desperation that they now find the unacceptable to be acceptable. Truly hope that it works out OK for V staff.

[GKOC41]

macdo sorry to hear about your situation. There are pretty secure areas/Hotels in Lahore with robust security arrangements. Once in the Hotel crews will stay inside either for security, or these days CV19 reasons. Nothing different from say Lagos. As for Pakistan go on you tube and look for a guy called Peter Santenello.

[AFA]

What evidence do you have that previously Virgin management considered this route unacceptable due security concerns but are now so ‘desperate’ that they’re willing to compromise - as per your insinuation?

[macdo]

Perfectly reasonable question.
Virgin has been talking about running Pakistan flights since 2007, but hasn't done so, in spite of a growing year round demand for such flights from the UK. So, ignoring a growth market.
BA only resumed flights to Pakistan at the end of 2018 having earlier binned them for security concerns. Still Virgin didn't enter the market.
Virgin are naturally desperate to operate and start rebuilding from the effects of covid19. So they choose now to start a route to a country where the UK government still advises against non essential travel.
PIA is currently on a ban and using HiFly to fill in. Well, that is a reasonable opportunistic reason to start.
Whilst I am sure a risk assessment has been done, having crew on the ground in Pakistan carries more risk than it does for, say New York, even allowing for 'secure zone' hotac. Why would you send your aircraft and crew to a destination that needed secure accommodation unless you had to? Or have had to take a different view of the assessment for commercial reasons?
I am not on the BoD of Virgin, but I can join dots.
Do you have evidence to the contrary?

[Tartiflette Fan]

Today's D Telegraph

Virgin Atlantic Airways is expected to slash another 1,000 jobs today as part of its £1.2bn rescue deal, as the airline sector continues to reel from the coronavirus pandemic.

.....................

The airline already axed 3,150 roles less than four months ago, as well as the closure of its Gatwick Airport base. The fresh cuts would mean that Virgin Atlantic’s pre-pandemic workforce level of around 10,000 staff has now halved.

[Maxfli]

The £1.2B rescue package only yielded £370m in cash for the business.
Everyone needs significantly more revenue to survive, everyone, no exceptions.

[there she blows]

1150, with room for another 600
to be made redundant

[fruitbat]

Virgin have sold their training base near Gatwick, and will stay there until 2021, does anyone know what then? It’s quite a big operation to be moved if it includes SEP hall etc.

https://www.crawleyobserver.co.uk/business/bright-future-ahead-virgin-atlantic-training-site-crawley-2961930

[stormin norman]

Will probally relocate to the Heathrow area .They've got to make it to 2021 first.

[nohold]

G-VDOT Airbus A350-1041 (Ruby Tuesday) was delivered to Manchester today.

New, but actually four years old!

[fruitbat]

Things coming to a head with refunds.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54659141

[Big Eric]

G-VDOT Airbus A350-1041 (Ruby Tuesday) was delivered to Manchester today.

New, but actually four years old!

Not 'Ruby Tuesday', but 'Ruby Slipper'.

[DaveReidUK]

New, but actually four years old!

Recycled 3rd prototype A35K.

[rog747]

Recycled 3rd prototype A35K.

Virgin seems to always look for canny buys - The first 3 Virgin A340-300's in 1993 came from a large order cancelled by Northwest who never took the type in the end.
The next couple were recycled prototypes ships c/n 2 and 3 - bought from Airbus 5 years after being built in 1992.
Virgin also was reported to have had a sniff at the 4 ex Olympic Airways A340's grounded at ATH from 2009 which could have been had for a song but they did NTU.

I gather the 5 new 747-443 got snapped up cheap by Virgin through GECAS from Boeing (Thank you very much) in 2001, being built for Alitalia but NTU.
The 747-443s were delivered to VS with AZ seating and all painted in the latest Virgin Silver Dream Machine Livery
The fleet of 5 would be dedicated to the Virgin LGW and MAN high density Leisure/Beach routes.

The airline (VS) was on the lookout for more -400’s to replace the -200's. Talks were at an advanced stage with British Airways to acquire a small number of aircraft from them. Although due to their Rolls Royce engines, they wouldn’t provide commonality with the GE engines fitted to the existing Virgin Boeing 747-400 fleet already in service.
However, an opportunity presented itself at the end of 2000. Alitalia had made an 11th hour decision to not take up 5 747-443’s it had an order for, and instead opted for the smaller 777-200ER.
It was so late in the day when Alitalia cancelled these particular aircraft that they were virtually complete.
The cabin and IFE wasn’t in line with what Virgin had fitted to the rest of the fleet either. As such, Boeing were pretty desperate to move these 5 aircraft on, and Virgin grabbed themselves a deal.
Virgin Seating at first was -
Zone A 14J Upper Class (Large Purple fabric soft Recliner seats with amazing leg room) small bar area and beauty therapists space.
Premium Economy All Upper Deck and 2 rows in Zone B 58W Large soft Recliner seats in Red and Blue fabrics, or all Red - tiny seatback IFE screens
Economy All Lower deck 379Y seats in a mix of Red, Orange & Blue fabrics - tiny seatback IFE screens
I do recall them even having dual Italian/English signage on board.
Cabin refurbs were done by Virgin around 2012 with service life expected to around 2019.

Virgin 747-443 original names were -
English Rose G-VROS
Hot Lips G-VLIP
Barbarella G-VROM
Pretty Woman G-VROY
Jersey Girl G-VGAL
To be seen often or on and off over the years at -
MCO MIA LAS BGI UVF ANU NAS TAB GND HAV VRA CUN MBJ KIN
Some flights were inaugurated for just a few months such as NAS and VRA and surprisingly these flights were all operated with a 747-400.

The AZ 744's were ordered during the alliance with KLM who had 20 747-406, thus standardizing the two fleets was therefore a logical choice.
In Ireland EI-CVG, CVH, CVI, CVJ and CVK registrations had already been reserved for the Alitalia 747-443s, but after the break-up with KLM, AZ switched their 744 order to 6 772ERs.
Virgin Atlantic took over the order of the five aircraft, very pleased to obtain top-of-the-line aircraft already in an advanced stage of construction.
The aircraft supplied to Virgin made the transfer flight from the Boeing Factory in Seattle to Auckland where they would be reconfigured and repainted, with the winglets still painted with the AZ logo.


NOVA IFE on 747-443
During the summer of 2001 Virgin took delivery of five 747-400 aircraft (the cancelled Alitalia order), these were fitted with an Inflight Entertainment system new to Virgin Atlantic supplied by Thales.
The new product, called 'Nova' has only 8 channels of seat back entertainment consisting of:
5 Movie channels
2 kids channels (featuring a combination of movies and tv programming)
1 TV channel which works on a cycle basis showing a selection of current TV programming
14 audio channels ranging from soul to Classical music
Moving Skymap display which plots the aircraft's flight path
NOVA was not a patch on Virgin's ODYSSEY state-of-the-art Matsu****a Avionic Systems IFE on the LHR 747's.
The Odyssey system offers 20 channels of entertainment, 10 movie channels plus much more.

[MostAnnoying]

Candidates who were in the recruitment process pre-COVID are being recalled now by Zenon to continue their process where they left off.