Virgin Atlantic

[BBK]

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/virgin-atlantic-bail-out-british-airways-airlines-coronavirus-a9477156.html

Just to try and balance things out a tad.

[Livesinafield]

Much rather see Virgin survive than BA thanks

[ford cortina]

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/virgin-atlantic-bail-out-british-airways-airlines-coronavirus-a9477156.html

Just to try and balance things out a tad.

To be honest it is written by Simon Calder so it must be true.

[Phantom4]

VA co owner raising issues on Bloomberg

[peacheyglobes]

Just to try and balance things out a tad.

I'm unable to post a link as I have less than 10 posts, but Marina Hyde's article in yesterday's Guardian "Richard Branson's bailout plea proves there's no one more shameless" provides a counterbalance!

[Pilot DAR]

WARNING!

Moderating the inappropriate posts on this thread, and responding to a number of reports of rude posts is getting to be too much work. I have not locked the thread, but I'm thinking about it. In the midst of the inappropriate posts is some good discussion, which I would like to encourage. If you would like the thread to continue, don't abuse it.

One of your moderators.

[nowhereasfiled]

Much rather see Virgin survive than BA thanks

In terms of customer service and possibly(???? I wouldn’t know, never worked for either of them) Ts&Cs and working conditions, then yes.
In terms of the bigger picture like the effect on the economy and regional connectivity issues, absolutely not.

[8029848s]

Much rather see Virgin survive than BA thanks
Can I ask why?

One is an extremely profitable business and the other not?

Are you happy to pay the extra tax to support businesses like Virgin?

Not sure the Italian approach to economics works in the real world.

[FlipFlapFlop]

Much rather see Virgin survive than BA thanks
Translates as "I would much rather 45000 lose their jobs than 8500".

[dead_pan]

Much rather see Virgin survive than BA thanks

You are Richard Branson and I claim my five quid.

[there she blows]

WARNING!

Moderating the inappropriate posts on this thread, and responding to a number of reports of rude posts is getting to be too much work. I have not locked the thread, but I'm thinking about it. In the midst of the inappropriate posts is some good discussion, which I would like to encourage. If you would like the thread to continue, don't abuse it.

One of your moderators.
Hear hear!
An excellent time to step in , some of my posts were a little inflamed, during this hot topic

[nowhereasfiled]

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-delta-rules-out-cash-lifeline-for-struggling-virgin-atlantic-11977216

Delta expect virgin to enter administration.

[peacheyglobes]

...Delta expect virgin to enter administration.

This could actually help the VS bid for £500m Treasury funding (assuming they resubmit it), as when their first bid was knocked back it was stated they hadn't done enough to prove they had exhausted investment from their shareholders. This provides evidence DL can't/won't provide any.

[wisecaptain]

Oh dear !!
So why is Branson not going to the credit markets ?
His island is woth didly squat , only what some other billionaire will pay and I guarentee its not worth $100million as he claims .
Come Branson , show you really want your airline , pay through the nose just like Carnival Cruise did to get their cash needed.
At this rate your hardly convincing anyone that you REALLY want to save it !!
Govt and taxpayers will not fund you ... do the right thing and step up to the credit markets !!!

[DaveReidUK]

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-delta-rules-out-cash-lifeline-for-struggling-virgin-atlantic-11977216

Delta expect virgin to enter administration.

The linked article doesn't contain any such prediction by Delta.

[pudoc]

Branson has an emotional attachment to VS, so hopefully, something will happen. A real shame, VS had turned a corner in recent years and about to become profitable then focus on expansion. A rather depressing thought that the only UK carrier out of LHR will be BA. I still think VS will find the money. Otherwise, I look forward to the new airline that steps in and takes over from Virgin. I'm sure the new airline will have amazing Ts and Cs and won't use agencies/contract pilots thus further degrading our industry...not.

Interestingly, everyone (UK public, not this forum) seems very concerned about a loan of £500m of public money, but I wonder if these same people are that vocal and against £106 billion spend on HS2. A complete farce.

Also interesting that the government have told Wizz Air they qualify for the Covid Financing Facility. A non-UK company with 1.5 billion in the bank. Regardless if Wizz has a UK subsidiary or not, if we're going by the mantra that the parent should have the responsibility over it's children (Branson and Virgin) surely the same should apply.

[Locked door]

Yes it does, in the very first sentence.

Sir Richard Branson's co-investor in Virgin Atlantic has ruled out injecting cash into the struggling airline - and indicated he expects it to go into administration.

I really hope he’s wrong.

ATB

LD

[wisecaptain]

LCCs Wizz Air (https://centreforaviation.com/data/profiles/airlines/wizz-air-w6) and Ryanair (https://centreforaviation.com/data/profiles/airlines/ryanair-fr) lead the way, with liquidity at 48% and 47% of revenue – equivalent to 176 days and 170 days of revenue respectively.
I read somewhere that Ryanair are incurring costs of less than a million Euro's a month.

At the other end of the scale is Norwegian (https://centreforaviation.com/data/profiles/airlines/norwegian-air-shuttle-asa-dy), with liquidity at 7% of revenue, or 26 days
Any one know what VS has ?
The UK Govt will not float very low levels of liquidity with the potential loss to Tax payers when subsequently going into administration..... Boris would lose a lot of supporters
VS I fear is soon to become UK airline history.
Perhaps Ryanair will rebrand it ?

[B744IRE]

Branson is no different to Bishop, Laker, Keegan, Stocks, Walsh etc. etc. They all retreat to their tax havens pleading poverty while the troops at the coal face take the hit. The industry has been smoke and mirrors for decades and a profitable airline is a myth...the BA pension fund deficit cancels out any profits they make. Independent airlines surrounded the core business with “suppliers” charging extortionate rates for services...sucking the life blood out of the business...sorry times are hard, oil prices are high, you can’t have a pay rise...sound familiar? Final salary pensions go down the drain when an airline goes broke and after paying 25% of my salary into a money purchase scheme my pot has dropped 30%...only retired BA final salary retirees are immune...hence BA no longer offer a final salary scheme. Thank God I’m retired...good luck everyone, whoever you work for!
Maybe someone who REALLY cares about their employees and the airline industry will step forward and employ amazing positive people.

[DaveReidUK]

Yes it does, in the very first sentence.

Sir Richard Branson's co-investor in Virgin Atlantic has ruled out injecting cash into the struggling airline - and indicated he expects it to go into administration.

I really hope he’s wrong.

With respect, that's Sky News's spin on what Bastian may or may not expect, hence its use of those weasel words "[he] indicated [that]", but it isn't supported anywhere in the article by a direct quote from the Delta CEO.

The nearest he gets is "If they are required to go through an administrative process ...", but he stops short (understandably) of predicting that's what's going to happen.

[Joe le Taxi]

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-delta-rules-out-cash-lifeline-for-struggling-virgin-atlantic-11977216

Delta expect virgin to enter administration. I suspect the delta boss thinks the UK administration process is just like the convenient US Chapter 11 fall back option ... It isn't!

[teamax]

I suspect the delta boss thinks the UK administration process is just like the convenient US Chapter 11 fall back option ... It isn't!

I think you are correct, he doesn’t realise the difference.

[Maxfli]

Ed Bastian elaborated more on this in an interview with CNBC (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/22/cnbc-exclusive-cnbc-transcript-delta-air-lines-ceo-ed-bastian-speaks-with-cnbcs-phil-lebeau-on-squawk-on-the-street-today.html):

“Well, on the Delta front, we are not in a position to invest any more money into Virgin. We’re already at the ownership cap of 49%. And candidly with the cash that we need to protect our own business, that’s where our focus is. I trust Virgin will work through its challenges with the government and with Richard.”

[bringbackthe80s]

LCCs Wizz Air (https://centreforaviation.com/data/profiles/airlines/wizz-air-w6) and Ryanair (https://centreforaviation.com/data/profiles/airlines/ryanair-fr) lead the way, with liquidity at 48% and 47% of revenue – equivalent to 176 days and 170 days of revenue respectively.
I read somewhere that Ryanair are incurring costs of less than a million Euro's a month.

At the other end of the scale is Norwegian (https://centreforaviation.com/data/profiles/airlines/norwegian-air-shuttle-asa-dy), with liquidity at 7% of revenue, or 26 days
Any one know what VS has ?
The UK Govt will not float very low levels of liquidity with the potential loss to Tax payers when subsequently going into administration..... Boris would lose a lot of supporters
VS I fear is soon to become UK airline history.
Perhaps Ryanair will rebrand it ?

Liquidity doesn’t mean too much.
What matters is parent companies, credit lines and/or governments’ help.

Even if you have 10 months liquidity in the bank which a few airlines do have there is no way it’s going to be enough.
Also, surviving alone won’t be enough as when they slowly start opening countries the losses will be deep as there will be months and months of reduced flying with few (scared) passengers.

Most airlines will survive but it won’t be thanks to liquidity. It will be thanks to shareholders and governments.
This is a good time to be in solid company, not necessarily a rich one.

[Landflap]

Just a quick thought ; Aren't these companies in this lock-down strangulation at the behest of the Government ? So, why is it so shocking that these companies should ask for total compensation from the same Governments that imposed the lock-down ?

[Chippybus]

Virgin Atlantic turned over circa £2.7 billion last year FACT
Their "Marketing Costs" were circa £570 million FACT

You do the maths, why spend so much on marketing ! The marketing budget includes the licence to use the "Virgin Brand"

Any profits are taken 'Offshore" and redistributed to shareholders, VA would never ever seemingly make a profit, it gave them the narrative to tell the staff about how hard it was and how they couldn't afford pay rises etc. How can a company 30 years old only make a profit once or twice in that long period? They carried the bare minimum in cash as the rest was siphoned off to launch rockets and ships. The only time VA made a significant profit was the year SA bought its 49% (total madness to buy 49% of anything) SRB is a gambler always was and always will be, he has suffered a traumatic period in the casino and will be asked to leave shortly his cash has run out. His whole world will fall like a house of cards, he burns through cash quicker than my wife and now his business style of living on the edge and constantly spending is coming to haunt him.

My guess is he may borrow from a rich friend in the sand but how much will it take to survive? No one knows, this one can't be predicted. Virgin Atlantic is no more but will return in phoenix form back as Virgin Holidays and its LHR slots are still valuable. No government loan as they have no security, they have leased off everything and spent their assets, O'Leary Walsh would sue and win against the government and they know it.

Virgin is a dead duck right now. FACT

[Bora Bora]

That there is a hate towards Branson at the public at large seems abundantly clear, and I guess we just have to live with it. But to read on PPRuNe how fellow pilots actively try to shoot down another airline – I find it reprehensible.

There are airlines I don’t particularly care for, some I almost detest, but I would NEVER go on this board and actively try to talk-up why this particular company should fail. I just do not get this mindset to do this to fellow pilots who love their job and who have families to feed. Is this where we want to go? Let’s try to be supportive of each other’s plight. Isn’t there enough grief in the world at the moment?

[Phantom4]

Virgin Atlantic owe Delta $200 million,Forbes.

[8che]

That there is a hate towards Branson at the public at large seems abundantly clear, and I guess we just have to live with it. But to read on PPRuNe how fellow pilots actively try to shoot down another airline – I find it reprehensible.

There are airlines I don’t particularly care for, some I almost detest, but I would NEVER go on this board and actively try to talk-up why this particular company should fail. I just do not get this mindset to do this to fellow pilots who love their job and who have families to feed. Is this where we want to go? Let’s try to be supportive of each other’s plight. Isn’t there enough grief in the world at the moment?


Have a look at the Norwegian thread...There are some real snakes out there. It’s not just Virgin it’s any airline that isn’t theirs..

[marchino61]

O'Leary Walsh would sue and win against the government and they know it.


Sue for what? The EU has said the state aid rules don't apply during the crisis.

[dead_pan]

Any profits are taken 'Offshore" and redistributed to shareholders, VA would never ever seemingly make a profit, it gave them the narrative to tell the staff about how hard it was and how they couldn't afford pay rises etc. How can a company 30 years old only make a profit once or twice in that long period? They carried the bare minimum in cash as the rest was siphoned off to launch rockets and ships. The only time VA made a significant profit was the year SA bought its 49% (total madness to buy 49% of anything) SRB is a gambler always was and always will be, he has suffered a traumatic period in the casino and will be asked to leave shortly his cash has run out. His whole world will fall like a house of cards, he burns through cash quicker than my wife and now his business style of living on the edge and constantly spending is coming to haunt him.



There's a long-standing view that very few of his businesses are actually profitable. Branson's modus operandi was to set something up with much hoopla, run it for a year or two then offload it and retain a minority stake and a payment for use of the Virgin brand. I recall he took his company (VGHL?) private in order to avoid any scrutiny by shareholders etc.

I think SIA dodged a bullet flogging its stake to Delta.

[clamchowder]

Viable businesses can go to banks for money. Why can't VA do this?

[Riskybis]

That there is a hate towards Branson at the public at large seems abundantly clear, and I guess we just have to live with it. But to read on PPRuNe how fellow pilots actively try to shoot down another airline – I find it reprehensible.

There are airlines I don’t particularly care for, some I almost detest, but I would NEVER go on this board and actively try to talk-up why this particular company should fail. I just do not get this mindset to do this to fellow pilots who love their job and who have families to feed. Is this where we want to go? Let’s try to be supportive of each other’s plight. Isn’t there enough grief in the world at the moment?

probably because they didn’t pass selection , also jealous of T&Cs that the company has . Usually the main reasons .
They hope the company will go bust so they feel better in themselves and can justify their actions

[Riskybis]

If Virgin do go bust I hope everyone is excited for T&Cs to get even worse , Virgin probably has the best T&Cs in the industry (I’m Ex BA) so if they go , BA will without a doubt make theirs worse . All other airlines will follow suit .

[xray one]

Chippybus wrote:

How can a company 30 years old only make a profit once or twice in that long period?

Both your facts on how long the company have been in existence and years of profitability are grossly wrong.

Mods can you do something about these trolls who try to spread utter lies.

[Chippybus]

Fair point I stand corrected, however, to borrow you need some security, or lose some of your shares, both aren't viable. I hope nobody thinks I am slagging off another airline, I'm not, I have friends that work there and I want them to survive, just the facts were posted.

[Chippybus]

Chippybus wrote:



Both your facts on how long the company have been in existence and years of profitability are grossly wrong.

Mods can you do something about these trolls who try to spread utter lies.
Apologies can you let me know where I should be corrected?

[BBK]

That there is a hate towards Branson at the public at large seems abundantly clear, and I guess we just have to live with it. But to read on PPRuNe how fellow pilots actively try to shoot down another airline – I find it reprehensible.

There are airlines I don’t particularly care for, some I almost detest, but I would NEVER go on this board and actively try to talk-up why this particular company should fail. I just do not get this mindset to do this to fellow pilots who love their job and who have families to feed. Is this where we want to go? Let’s try to be supportive of each other’s plight. Isn’t there enough grief in the world at the moment?



Well said Bora Bora. I think these people are in the wrong forum. They should be on the ...

Spectators Balcony (Spotters Corner) If you're not a professional pilot but want to discuss issues about the job, this is the best place to loiter. You won't be moved on by 'security' and there'll be plenty of experts to answer any questions.

Problem solved! Then they can leave this forum to the professionals. I doubt very much that any self respecting professional pilot would want to see a fellow colleague lose their job.

Just one last point about the viability of VS. No company can survive if the government does not allow it to function. VS would not need assistance if they could fly their passengers. Any company that can fill up six Jumbos to just one destination in the summer must be getting something right.

[Chippybus]

Chippybus wrote:



Both your facts on how long the company have been in existence and years of profitability are grossly wrong.

Mods can you do something about these trolls who try to spread utter lies.
Apologies 26 years in existence, X Ray one if you add up all the profits and deduct the losses over the 26 years what would be the result? Then explain to me how can a business survive on these numbers as I can't get it all to make sense and someone of your gravitas can perhaps educate me. Many thanks

[Fat A1bert]

Chippybus seems to have a chippy on his shoulder. Search his posts, he was pro Virgin 2009…looking at contract work in China 2014. Either got in and got sacked or never made the grade. Either way...not worth listening to 🙄

[wiggy]

Just a quick thought ; Aren't these companies in this lock-down strangulation at the behest of the Government ? So, why is it so shocking that these companies should ask for total compensation from the same Governments that imposed the lock-down ?

Which Government are you thinking of?

Even if the UK HMG removed lockdown today VS, BA and others would still be clobbered by all the other variants of lockdowns and entry restrictions that have been imposed on them and other airlines worldwide..

[flyingfemme]

Why the hate for Branson when Easyjet have had a big loan from HMG? Does everyone hate Stelios as well? In case you hadn't noticed, big business making profits is just so last century......it's only the little ones that need profits to pay the owners wages (and the taxes). What is needed is an overhaul of business taxation and general behaviour. Boards these days are only interested in finding loopholes to exploit for a quick buck and then exit. How do we "cure" that? I wish I knew.

[Gove N.T.]

That there is a hate towards Branson at the public at large seems abundantly clear, and I guess we just have to live with it. But to read on PPRuNe how fellow pilots actively try to shoot down another airline – I find it reprehensible.

There are airlines I don’t particularly care for, some I almost detest, but I would NEVER go on this board and actively try to talk-up why this particular company should fail. I just do not get this mindset to do this to fellow pilots who love their job and who have families to feed. Is this where we want to go? Let’s try to be supportive of each other’s plight. Isn’t there enough grief in the world at the moment?

What makes you think everyone on this site is a pilot. As in any website there are trolls idiots and just plain nasty people.
I suggest the overwhelming majority have never met the man, fewer still have any knowledge of his bank account balance following the market drop over the last 2 months.
I would also suggest that there are tiny minority, indeed if any, on the site who are capable of achieving what he has over the last few years building a well respected airline from nothing and against the monolith of the King/Marshall era.
They have nothing to offer the world

[cashash]

My guess is he may borrow from a rich friend in the sand but how much will it take to survive? No one knows, this one can't be predicted. Virgin Atlantic is no more but will return in phoenix form back as Virgin Holidays and its LHR slots are still valuable.


I thought the slots had already been borrowed against - if Virgin collapse the slots are gone.

[truckflyer]

Why the hate for Branson when Easyjet have had a big loan from HMG? Does everyone hate Stelios as well? In case you hadn't noticed, big business making profits is just so last century......it's only the little ones that need profits to pay the owners wages (and the taxes). What is needed is an overhaul of business taxation and general behaviour. Boards these days are only interested in finding loopholes to exploit for a quick buck and then exit. How do we "cure" that? I wish I knew.

I think you will discover there is no love lost for Stelios either, and Stelios is not pilots friend, at least if recent weeks actions are anything to go by.

[Pilot DAR]

Mods can you do something about these trolls who try to spread utter lies.

Yes, I can lock the thread, I nearly did the other day.

Would locking the thread make the situation better? Or can posters just be more polite?

[truckflyer]

I think we need to show some more consideration for people actually working there, this is not a good time for anyone. Myself included, it is a sensitive topic as many real peoples lives are at risk, so maybe we should show a bit more empathy for the situation as a whole, and as DAR said be a bit nicer.

[xray one]

Chippybus said:

Apologies 26 years in existence

Wrong again...maybe, with the help of Google, you could get the correct number on your third attempt?

Pilot DAR

Not trying to tell you how to moderate, but perhaps you could start banning people peddling false information? You could start with Chippybus?

[HFP]

A good friend of mine told me once that we as individuals mean nothing to the world, but we mean the world to those who love us. No company is irreplaceable. No one cares about an airline going into administration. The world has done just fine without PanAm, TWA, Monarch, Thomas Cook, and the many more to come and go. To paraphrase my friend, Virgin means nothing to world, but it means the world to those who work there. I am sure the brand will survive one way or another. Perhaps IAG buy it and have it as their boutique brand, or a private group, or the Germans, or the Chinese, or even RB decides to put money in it, who knows. Looking at the situation from the outside if Virgin goes, we will find some other airline to fly with. Nothing and no one is irreplaceable.

My favourite Italian chain Carluccio's went into administration, and though I am sure that those who worked there saw their world come crashing down, the consumers can still find a good Italian restaurant to eat their favourite pasta, or drink a good cup of coffee; HMRC will still get its taxes from someone else who gets the clientele, and even the employees will probably find somewhere else to work and call it home. For those who never knew about Carluccio's restaurants, they probably don't even care that this happened.

What is really despairing for me, is the fact that aviation has been decimated, without any real prospects of recovering any time soon, and this affects all of us working in the industry. Social distancing on aircraft doesn't work. The middle seat, or the newly proposed lovely cabin interiors which are shown in airline magazines don't meet the scientific requirements for social distancing. Unless we find a vaccine, airline flying is not coming back any time soon and we may all find ourselves unemployed so let us reflect on that for a moment.

Most of those pilots who are made redundant now will probably not see the inside of a flight deck ever again, and the longer this lasts, the longer the list of those who will be made redundant becomes, the more sorrow and pain it will cause all of us working for the airlines. I can't see how anyone who is a professional pilot can't see this as an existential danger to the profession and the long term conditions of service. It will probably mean that having a job, will not even be worth it anymore, because of what will be expected of us to do for the privilege of flying.

If Virgin goes into administration, it will be a sad day for the profession, as yet more colleagues will be made redundant, and more families will suffer, and more young people's dreams will be put on hold. Being a skilful pilot is probably very important for being successful, being lucky enough to be with the right airline is probably paramount this time around if one wants to continue in this profession, but having the emotional Intelligence to understand that these times require empathy is what differentiates people with integrity from sycophants.

I would suggest what my mother taught me when I was a little boy, still applies today on these boards; don't say anything, unless it is true, necessary and nice.

[Bergerie1]

Thank you HFP. Looking at a number of threads; this one, the two hampster-wheels on UK and US politics, and the corona virus thread, I am dismayed by the vitriol I see poured out every day from supposedly intelligent and well-informed people. While obtaining good information, and not being swayed by one's own confirmation bias may be difficult to achieve, surely we can be polite to one another. Regardless of one's political convictions, or one's tribal loyalties to a particular company, is not kindness one of the most important of human virtues?

[Barcli]

Well said HFP - nail on head

[sangiovese.]

Eloquent words indeed

[babybaby]

Can’t quite see how the UK Government would be able to justify to the UK taxpayer “saving” Virgin Atlantic when it chose not to do so with Flybe, or for that matter Monarch or Thomas Cook? Appreciate the difference is Coronavirus lockdown, and that is arguably a significant, arguably justifiable, difference, but many UK taxpayers may well question why a significant UK transport provider such as Flybe would be considered less worthy of “saving” than a longhaul carrier that is not a sole provider on most routes it operates (sad as it would be to see the loss of it’s type of competition), and that’s before you get into the political hot potato of the wealth of its owner(s).

[Bravo Zulu]

Just for any Virgin guys/girls reading all this negativity and speculation..

I'm a glass half full kind of person..

I think RB will pull his finger out..

All the best.

[Busdriver01]

Does anyone actually have any facts about the c.£500m paid out in "Marketing costs" each year, other than speculation that its a way to siphon profits off to the BVIs?

[cashash]

Does anyone actually have any facts about the c.£500m paid out in "Marketing costs" each year, other than speculation that its a way to siphon profits off to the BVIs?

Why wouldnt it just be marketing? - after all I would have thought that most airlines have massive advertising budgets. Emirates seems to spend more on marketing around the globe than on actual aircraft.

[Busdriver01]

Sorry, I should clarify: I have heard that its really for the licence to use the Virgin brand. My point being, that would be sent to Virgin Group, which in turn would pay Virgin Group Holdings Ltd, which is based in the tax free BVIs. I cannot see it being only for marketing as it's higher than the entire employee remuneration bill, and almost as much as they spent on fuel, which just seems too much. All this to say, if it's truly just a way of getting money to the BVIs tax free, then I can see why the government would be digging in. But if it's not, surely thats a bill that can easily be reduced (surley the Virgin brand is strong enough not to need to spend that amount?) and makes their finances look a lot more healthy, increasing their chances of getting a loan?

[esscee]

SRB was quite happy to say that BA ought to be allowed to go bust back in 2009 when BA were having a bad time. Example of "things you wish you never said"?

[Gove N.T.]

SRB was quite happy to say that BA ought to be allowed to go bust back in 2009 when BA were having a bad time. Example of "things you wish you never said"?

After the way under the Marshall/King leadership BA acted by instituting the dirty tricks campaign against VS are you surprised that there is little love lost.
For that disreputable action BA fined a paltry £610k with £4.5m costs.
that £610k went straight back to the airline but In reality the losses and disruption was much more.

[101917]

Just remember that when Branson was a young kid on the block he took huge risks in setting up a number of companies. Some failed, some, such as Virgin Atlantic succeeded.

Since 1984 he has given good employment to many thousands of individuals and provided a product on his aircraft that exceeds that of many other airlines, including BA.

Virgin Atlantic survived the BA led dirty tricks in the early 90s when they and other national carriers tried to force them out of business.

Virgin Atlantic does not have the not so subtle backing of the Government, who in the early to mid-80s wrote off BA's massive debt so that the airline could effectively start again under Lord King.

If you think BA's service is bad just watch it deteriorate if there is no competition. The US airlines are even worse than BA and do not provide effective competition.

[MDS]

It's all well and good being sentimental about VA, but if the airline isn't profitable then why would the taxpayer (or commercial entity) give them a loan?

If they were losing money hand over fist without the pandemic, a loan certainly won't change a thing.

PS. I believe competition is a great thing, but as with all business, viability = profitability.

[Livesinafield]

Can I ask why?

I did explain my reasons but it appears an excitable mod removed it...?

Nothing to do with job losses, I just prefer Virgin to BA all over, Better prices better service offered and generally having flown with both airlines regularly, I personally prefer the Virgin option as I feel its a nicer experience

Re am I happy to pay more tax to bail out virgin, that's a ridiculous remark did you vote on the easy jet bailout? or the Banks bailout ?? no didn't think so, did you pay more tax because of it? no

[qwertyuiop]

It's all well and good being sentimental about VA, but if the airline isn't profitable then why would the taxpayer (or commercial entity) give them a loan?

If they were losing money hand over fist without the pandemic, a loan certainly won't change a thing.

PS. I believe competition is a great thing, but as with all business, viability = profitability.

I know it’s a small detail but Virgin Atlantic is VS not VA. The rest makes sense.

[kcockayne]

I did explain my reasons but it appears an excitable mod removed it...?

Nothing to do with job losses, I just prefer Virgin to BA all over, Better prices better service offered and generally having flown with both airlines regularly, I personally prefer the Virgin option as I feel its a nicer experience

Re am I happy to pay more tax to bail out virgin, that's a ridiculous remark did you vote on the easy jet bailout? or the Banks bailout ?? no didn't think so, did you pay more tax because of it? no
Not yet you didn't. There will be plenty of extra tax to pay when we have got over this !

[xray one]

MDS has posted more poorly researched bollox

If they were losing money hand over fist without the pandemic, a loan certainly won't change a thing.

The last financial report gave a loss of £26 Million on a £2.8 Billion turnover, hardly 'losing money hand over fist'. One of the main reasons for this was the ongoing problem with the RR engine on the 789. At times we would be down to 4 grounded out of a fleet of 17. This was a problem not of Virgin's making. We needed to retain fuel thirsty A346s and buy 4 A332s to make up the shortfall.

'lies, damn lies and statistics'

[fruitbat]

It’s all relative of course. In that year what profit did BA, EasyJet and Ryanair make?

[A320baby]

It’s all relative of course. In that year what profit did BA, EasyJet and Ryanair make?

At the end of the day the airline was on the road to recovery! We’ve had to deal with a lot of issues the past few years regarding the engine issue on the 787. Also the other airlines you mentioned are about 5 times the size of Virgin!

I really don’t understand the constant Virgin bashing on this site! We pilots are supposed to stick together especially in times of crisis! All I see is glee at the fact Virgin are struggling!

Poor form.

[Andy D]

Why wouldnt it just be marketing? - after all I would have thought that most airlines have massive advertising budgets. Emirates seems to spend more on marketing around the globe than on actual aircraft.

EasyJet spent £157m in 2019 on a turnover of £6bn, and in 2018 BA spent £509m in 2018 on £13bn turnover.

So Virgin's £500m against a £2bn (ish) turnover looks high in comparison

[Maxfli]

As I understand it so far in terms of Government Financial Support...............

Lufthansa negotiating to get €10B (includes aid for Swiss & Brussels Airlines)
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-lufthansa-aid/lufthansa-aims-to-finalise-10-billion-euro-rescue-package-next-week-sources-idUSKCN2252Y6

AF/KLM to get €7B
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/air-france-klm-group-air-182631506.html

easyJet to get €500M
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/apr/06/easyjet-secures-600m-coronavirus-loan-from-uk-treasury-and-bank

SAS to get $350M
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidnikel/2020/03/18/denmark-sweden-governments-offer-financial-support-to-sas-over-coronavirus-crisis/#7e80bad519b4

Alitalia got €400m in February

TAP
The Portuguese Prime Minister, Antonio Costa, said today that TAP Air Portugal could be nationalized in the coming days.

I doubt Team Boris have the balls to let Virgin Atlantic collapse, they just want to see a decent chunk being put on the table by the shareholders.
Delta have said they're not in a position to do so, it therefore falls to Virgin Holdings to put cash on the table and chase Delta for their tab, maybe through a shareholding transfer.

VA will get through this, very best to all.

[MikeAlpha320]

As I understand it so far in terms of Government Financial Support...............

Lufthansa negotiating to get €10B (includes aid for Swiss & Brussels Airlines)
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-lufthansa-aid/lufthansa-aims-to-finalise-10-billion-euro-rescue-package-next-week-sources-idUSKCN2252Y6

AF/KLM to get €7B
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/air-france-klm-group-air-182631506.html

easyJet to get €500M
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/apr/06/easyjet-secures-600m-coronavirus-loan-from-uk-treasury-and-bank

SAS to get $350M
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidnikel/2020/03/18/denmark-sweden-governments-offer-financial-support-to-sas-over-coronavirus-crisis/#7e80bad519b4

Alitalia got €400m in February

TAP
The Portuguese Prime Minister, Antonio Costa, said today that TAP Air Portugal could be nationalized in the coming days.

I doubt Team Boris have the balls to let Virgin Atlantic collapse, they just want to see a decent chunk being put on the table by the shareholders.
Delta have said they're not in a position to do so, it therefore falls to Virgin Holdings to put cash on the table and chase Delta for their tab, maybe through a shareholding transfer.

VA will get through this, very best to all.

All of these (bar easyjet) are flag carriers... BA (though totally privatised) would be our closest equivalent. EJ raised significant funds elsewhere, had a strong balance sheet before this and crucially their capacity couldn't feasibly be replaced anywhere near as quickly as VS, I appreciate a lot of this capacity won't be required for several months- if not years. Compare 40ish airframes to 330ish (a good percentage which are owned - mentioned above) I totally understand the need for competition and whilst a BA monopoly would benefit many of us on this forum I don't think anyone wants to see our friends/family/pilots+crew e.t.c. out of jobs.

Would you invest your own money into virgin right now? Whilst the whole aim of the government is to support/re-start the economy would the loss of a financially depleted company really prevent an overall recovery? In a time where several uk airlines are making record profits what does it say that the company has been making losses since 2016 and not looking to return to profit until 2021? Would the £500m actually save them? What collateral is there to the tax payers 500m?I have no answers to any of these questions and I sincerely hope the guys/girls at VS make it through- in whatever shape. It doesn't seem like a sound bail-out to the average person and RBs previous publicity is not helping. With any luck the group goes to creditors (like many other large companies mentioned above) and generates the cash required to keep them going. Unfortunately there will be several casualties in the aftermath of COVID and it really has become survival of the fittest in many senses.

Good luck to all involved and hopefully we'll all be off this forum and flying again soon!

[MikeAlpha320]

Trading Update for Six Months ending 31 March 2020 (http://otp.investis.com/clients/uk/easyjet1/rns/regulatory-story.aspx?cid=2&newsid=1386076)


Link from another forum, ezy currently sitting on circa 3bn in cash to see them through.

[Go4PoweredDecent]

National flag carriers get bailed out, generally, private companies don’t.

That may not be perceived as being very fair but that’s the way it is.

One of the best flights I ever had was with Virgin, but also so was the worst.

I don’t understand all the bashing of Virgin that goes on here from some members, but conversely I also don’t understand why Virgin feel they are a special case that are deserving of a taxpayer bailout? Just like the many UK airlines that have come and gone before them, no one is immune or special enough to warrant exclusion from going into administration if the business case isn’t there. Even more so in Virgins case where they’re profit relative to turnover is horrendously poor.

Great advertising and a Hollywood Playboy style image isn’t enough not to be expendable. It’s just business, it’s not personal. Thats probably hard to imagine when you’re sat at 30°W and the realisation sets in that soon it could all be over, but it’s not the first time many a career pilot has been in that exact same situation pondering the exact same reality. The waste of it is tragic but it’s a very real possibility now.

Delta might only own 49% of Virgin but they’ve been calling the shots and essentially steering the ship to a great extent over the last few years. Until now they’ve had a bottomless pit of money which has proved very lucrative and successful for Virgin Atlantic, but now the party is over.

Richard Bransons handling of the plight of Virgin under the current circumstances couldn’t of been handled any worse it would seem, if anything he’s just whipping up a sentiment of hostility in the tax payers mind towards his cause. I personally don’t think he will stomp up the cash himself? Who would? Running an airline and making money out of it successfully is very difficult to achieve and the Virgin model isn't the best In the business by far. Although the company is the flagship of his brand, this is going to really test his metal. It has survived this long only through clever marketing, smoke and mirrors and a succession of differing shareholder stakes over the years who have had money to burn.

I sincerely hope for all who work there that something gets pulled out the bag and a rescue package or business deal of some kind can be hammered out, but one thing is for dead certain, Virgin at the very best, will be a shadow of its former self once this current crisis passes, if it survives at all.

[covec]

Any airline getting a State handout should at the very least have the basic decency to refund customers. Properly. Legally. Cash. 14 days.

[Adambrau]

As I understand it so far in terms of Government Financial Support...............

Lufthansa negotiating to get €10B (includes aid for Swiss & Brussels Airlines)
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-lufthansa-aid/lufthansa-aims-to-finalise-10-billion-euro-rescue-package-next-week-sources-idUSKCN2252Y6

AF/KLM to get €7B
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/air-france-klm-group-air-182631506.html

easyJet to get €500M
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/apr/06/easyjet-secures-600m-coronavirus-loan-from-uk-treasury-and-bank

SAS to get $350M
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidnikel/2020/03/18/denmark-sweden-governments-offer-financial-support-to-sas-over-coronavirus-crisis/#7e80bad519b4

Alitalia got €400m in February

TAP
The Portuguese Prime Minister, Antonio Costa, said today that TAP Air Portugal could be nationalized in the coming days.

I doubt Team Boris have the balls to let Virgin Atlantic collapse, they just want to see a decent chunk being put on the table by the shareholders.
Delta have said they're not in a position to do so, it therefore falls to Virgin Holdings to put cash on the table and chase Delta for their tab, maybe through a shareholding transfer.

VA will get through this, very best to all.

AF-KL Group got a total of nearly 9-11 Billion euros. 2-4 from the Netherlands Govt. and 7 Billion Euros from France total.

[giggitygiggity]

Any airline getting a State handout should at the very least have the basic decency to refund customers. Properly. Legally. Cash. 14 days.
It's not a state handout as such, but a credit line. They don't need to actually spend the money. I imagine Virgin and most others will, but it's not a handout.

[touch&go]

Seems that you need to be viable or have a good credit rating to get government loans which you could argue is right to protect tax payers money.

This is from todays Telegraph:-

Mike Ashley's Frasers Group has been refused an emergency Bank of England loan after being forced to shut its stores, as the chain settled a controversial €674m (£590m) tax bill in Belgium.

The owner of Sports Direct and House of Fraser cannot use the loan scheme (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/04/20/two-key-flaws-governments-emergency-business-loan-scheme/) because it does not have the required credit rating.

Frasers said that it had not been accepted as eligible for the programme to help Britain's biggest firms using public mnoey during the coronavirus pandemic. The likes of Primark (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/04/21/primark-takes-284m-hit-stock-cant-sell/) and Greggs have been able to tap it up for extra cash.

[Phantom4]

[QUOTE=giggitygiggity;10762259]It's not a state handout as such, but a credit line. They don't need to actually spend the money. I imagine Virgin and most others will, but it's not a handout.[/QUOTE

VS need to repay $200 Million to Delta,where’s the money?

[cjhants]

[QUOTE=giggitygiggity;10762259]It's not a state handout as such, but a credit line. They don't need to actually spend the money. I imagine Virgin and most others will, but it's not a handout.[/QUOTE

VS need to repay $200 Million to Delta,where’s the money?

If Delta really want to help VS they could convert this current liability to a long term loan. Might be a drop in the ocean, but at least it’s a signal of intent.

[lederhosen]

I think touch&go has hit the nail on the head about protecting taxpayers money. There is a fine line between keeping viable businesses going until the economy restarts and supporting businesses where the future is much less certain. It is not clear that success pre corona or signs of a turnaround as is being argued with Norwegian tell us how viable companies will be. Here in Germany the foreign minister has said that we should expect little or no tourism by air for the rest of the year. This was met with howls of anguish from the trade. But if he is right then business for holiday companies is going to be bleak for a long while yet and some will inevitably need to shut down. Condor is being supported and mates tell me they are quite busy flying stuff from China and agricultural workers from Eastern Europe. But that is clearly only tiding them over and what happens next is very uncertain. I am pretty sure that all airlines are going to look different if and when they properly restart operations.

[fruitbat]

Interesting to hear the views of the former Flybe COO...

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/andrew-castle/branson-michael-oleary-spot-on-virgin-bailout/

[Capt PPRuNe]

So he is non resident and not a British tax payer, but wants the British tax payer to help his 'baby'.
Are you really that ignorant? You sound like one of the hoards of spittle flecked protesters waving their virtual pitchforks demanding something they have no real understanding of. Just to simplify it for you and your ilk, Virgin Atlantic is a British company, employing many thousands of people who all pay income tax and NIC to the treasury, as does the company. The chairman of the board of Virgin Group, Richard Branson, is a figurehead. He does not live in the UK and so isn't liable to pay UK income tax. Even if he did live here, he probably wouldn't be liable for any income tax as he puts all his income these days into charitable causes. That's beside the point anyway. The thousands of employees are hard working and very dedicated to the company and it is the employees who make the company. Their contribution to the government coffers is what counts. Not a bunch of tabloid reading, 'indignant but not understanding why', ill informed vitriolic, probably jealous, bandwagon jumping trolls. Go and find one of the many petitions out there to try and force the collapse of a brilliant airline to work for.This is a Professional Pilots website and you don't sound like one.

As Mark Twain said: “Better to keep your mouth shut and appear a fool, than open it and remove all doubt!”

[KYT]

Are you really that ignorant? You sound like one of the hoards of spittle flecked protesters waving their virtual pitchforks demanding something they have no real understanding of. Just to simplify it for you and your ilk, Virgin Atlantic is a British company, employing many thousands of people who all pay income tax and NIC to the treasury, as does the company. The chairman of the board of Virgin Group, Richard Branson, is a figurehead. He does not live in the UK and so isn't liable to pay UK income tax. Even if he did live here, he probably wouldn't be liable for any income tax as he puts all his income these days into charitable causes. That's beside the point anyway. The thousands of employees are hard working and very dedicated to the company and it is the employees who make the company. Their contribution to the government coffers is what counts. Not a bunch of tabloid reading, 'indignant but not understanding why', ill informed vitriolic, probably jealous, bandwagon jumping trolls. Go and find one of the many petitions out there to try and force the collapse of a brilliant airline to work for.This is a Professional Pilots website and you don't sound like one.

As Mark Twain said: “Better to keep your mouth shut and appear a fool, than open it and remove all doubt!”

What he said ^

and ‘Like‘

[Capt PPRuNe]

NHS ....Thats a public service ...... not a private company . Big difference and the NHS is beloved to the UK , its saving peoples lives right now so has unending public support and is a Political hot potato at the forefront of Boris political promise list ......
And yet here we have another Branson hater who cannot see beyond his frothy mouthed rants against government assistance in the form of loan guarantees for Virgin Atlantic. As usual, he/she and their ilk will oversimplify everything and refer to the NHS as some saintly, sunbeam sparkled, cherub ridden haven. It's only a matter of time before these people will simplistically throw in a retort about how Branson sued the NHS without knowing any of the details of the case. Irrespective of the fact that the NHS trust involved was acting irregularly with contracts and so were asked to explain but had to be taken to court and eventually they paid out because they knew thy were in the wrong and then all that payout was reinvested into the NHS. But I digress... the halo bearing crowds that stand there clapping at the heavens every Thursday evening are one of the main reasons the NHS is burdened because at the slightest encouragement they will try and sue the NHS, no thanks to all those daytime TV adverts for no win, no fee lawyers who ask if you've ever had an injury etc. Read this to get a better idea of how saintly everyone in this is:If we love our NHS so much, why are we suing it for £83billion, asks MARTIN SAMUEL (https://www.soundhealthandlastingwealth.com/health-news/if-we-love-our-nhs-so-much-why-are-we-suing-it-for-83billion-asks-martin-samuel/)"In the last NHS accounts, 2018-19, the cost of harm bill — the estimated claims bill incurred in one year — was approximately £9 billion.

In 2017, it was calculated that a one per cent pay rise for NHS staff required £500 million in funding. The cost of harm therefore equates to an 18 per cent pay rise — an increase the British public would no doubt support for nurses, if everyone could just stop suing them. And this is the tip of a legal iceberg. The estimated bill for all outstanding compensation claims racked up over the years comes in at £83 billion. In comparison, NHS England’s total budget in 2018-19 was £129 billion. In the maternity ward alone, for every baby born in Britain, £1,100 is incurred by the NHS in indemnity costs against negligence claims."
And here are some "facts" that the bandwagon jumpers can use if they can be bothered actually reading them:

Clinical negligence numbers steady, but rising costs remain a concern (https://resolution.nhs.uk/2019/07/11/clinical-negligence-numbers-steady-but-rising-costs-remain-a-concern/)

[KYT]

I wonder if all the criticism written hear, was also aimed at the Banks when they were BAILED OUT (not offered a loan)?

[Capt PPRuNe]

With respect, that's Sky News's spin on what Bastian may or may not expect, hence its use of those weasel words "[he] indicated [that]", but it isn't supported anywhere in the article by a direct quote from the Delta CEO.

The nearest he gets is "If they are required to go through an administrative process ...", but he stops short (understandably) of predicting that's what's going to happen.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/717x960/38416a8b_4944_4304_bca7_918303c8da30_8aee8d11258c82337cced27 ebc6c2996c1ac54f8.jpeg

[Kirks gusset]

Easyjet:" We estimate that our operating costs burn is in the region of £30-40 million per week, whilst the fleet is grounded. This compares to circa £125 million when flying a full schedule". That's a difference of 10M a week! surely they can be a bit more refined than that, how the hell can you be 10M adrift!! so based on a 500M loan they have 16 weeks or 12 weeks buffer..
Branson doesn't need Virgin to continue, OK it will be a big dent to his reputation if it folds, On the other hand it does seem he is genuinely committed to keeping the airline going, mindful of the staff and consequences and frankly I don't blame him for wanting a piece of the pie from the treasury, after all we give millions in "AID" to Africa which sadly mostly gets spent on arms and fast cars for the dictators or criminals. If we regard Virgin as a "British brand" we should be rallying support for it. Whether or not the airlines will prevail after the restrictions without more hand-outs is obviously on the minds of the bean counters and we may be better of accepting a successful few rather than a struggling many.

[Burpbot]

Interesting to hear the views of the former Flybe COO...

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/andrew-castle/branson-michael-oleary-spot-on-virgin-bailout/
Luke Farajallah a great ambassador for the industry. Was he not taken to court for abusing employment rights of his employees. Reviled by most of the company! Was he not let go?

Either way not a person. To be considered on any level a suitable spokesperson!

[scroggs]

Easyjet:" We estimate that our operating costs burn is in the region of £30-40 million per week, whilst the fleet is grounded. This compares to circa £125 million when flying a full schedule". That's a difference of 10M a week! surely they can be a bit more refined than that, how the hell can you be 10M adrift!! so based on a 500M loan they have 16 weeks or 12 weeks buffer..
Branson doesn't need Virgin to continue, OK it will be a big dent to his reputation if it folds, On the other hand it does seem he is genuinely committed to keeping the airline going, mindful of the staff and consequences and frankly I don't blame him for wanting a piece of the pie from the treasury, after all we give millions in "AID" to Africa which sadly mostly gets spent on arms and fast cars for the dictators or criminals. If we regard Virgin as a "British brand" we should be rallying support for it. Whether or not the airlines will prevail after the restrictions without more hand-outs is obviously on the minds of the bean counters and we may be better of accepting a successful few rather than a struggling many.


Virgin Atlantic (not Richard Branson) is not seeking a 'hand out'. It is looking for a line of credit of approximately £500m on commercial terms. If it can achieve that without guarantees from the UK government, I'm sure it will happily do so. However, this is a very difficult environment from which to make projections of future revenue, and so UK banks (which are obligated under the current government guarantee schemes to protect small and medium sized businesses by offering loans without preconditions, yet aren't doing so) are being extremely conservative. Ironic, given that they were rescued 12 years ago by unlimited grants from government plus a policy of 'quantitative easing' which effectively removed the consequences of their foolhardy practices of the previous 10 years.

Virgin Atlantic is not the most profitable airline, but it is a major player in the marketplace, and has around 25% of UK-US traffic. It was looking forward to both returning to profit and some moderate expansion in the short to medium term. There is no logical reason to believe that it cannot continue to hold its own in whatever shape the long-haul market takes after things reopen. As happened after the various shocks that the market has had in the last 25-30 years, there will be a short-term correction before the market returns to growth. It's up to the treasury (and its advisers Morgan Stanley) to assess whether or not the financials make a commercial loan viable or not, and what actions need to be taken by the company to improve its position from their perspective. It should also be borne in mind that the problems for the entire industry were not brought on by the actions of the industry (unlike the banks), but by the actions of governments in shutting down international travel.

However, the reaction by the public - and, surprisingly, people in this forum - to Virgin asking for help has been entirely emotional, uninformed, and essentially spiteful, and fuelled essentially by a distaste of wealth without any consideration of what that wealth represents in terms of the employment it has created, and the fact that it is almost entirely shareholdings in businesses and thus to be released for other purposes would require those shareholdings to be sold - at which point the notional extent of that wealth would be seen to be far less than the Sunday Times estimated in 2019.

The Virgin companies are great places to work, and look after their employees extremely well. Their existence generally works well for their customers as well, though inevitably there are individual stories where that is not so, as is the case for every large company. The UK-registered Virgin companies (which includes Virgin Atlantic) pay their taxes in UK, as of course do the vast majority of their employees.

I am about to retire from the industry, so the future of Virgin Atlantic will not affect me personally, but it would be a crying shame if its 10,000 employees and their families were thrown on the scrapheap because of the braying hoards of uninformed commentators who simply want to stick a finger up to Richard Branson

[Kirks gusset]

but it would be a crying shame if its 10,000 employees and their families were thrown on the scrapheap because of the braying hoards of uninformed commentators who simply want to stick a finger up to Richard Branson
I'm not sticking a finger to Branson, intact quite the opposite [QUOTE]if we regard Virgin as a "British brand" we should be rallying support for it[/QUOTE
We are all well enough informed to separate the man form Virgin enterprises, however, Branson the publicity machine is the one spearheading the very public campaign for the loan and as the "spokesperson" it is natural that his name is used in conjunction with the debate. The issue for some may be that Easyjet got a bail out loan even after paying "contractural dividends" to shareholders, NAS may get a a bail out loan, despite their catastrophic business model, other players in Europe with inflated costs will ,so why not Virgin? the sentiment appears to be emotionally fuelled by individual wealth, of Branson, yet no-one commented on the 1.6 Billion wealth of Stellios..why.. possibly because he argued against it! https://www.bmmagazine.co.uk/news/easyjet-600m-government-loan-described-as-biggest-scandal-in-british-corporate-history/ OK, point scoring against the Board. Why on earth didn't Branson just let the Virgin Board CEO do the talking? he's the one who's now made this a personal crusade.

[MikeAlpha320]

Several have cited a 'return to profitability' - was this not massively dependant on expansion (which helpfully coincided with the 3rd runway debate)? If an airline hasn't been making money in recent years given the market we've been operating in why would it make money in the tough years that will follow?

[Barcli]

Virgin Atlantic (not Richard Branson) is not seeking a 'hand out'. It is looking for a line of credit of approximately £500m on commercial terms. If it can achieve that without guarantees from the UK government, I'm sure it will happily do so. However, this is a very difficult environment from which to make projections of future revenue, and so UK banks (which are obligated under the current government guarantee schemes to protect small and medium sized businesses by offering loans without preconditions, yet aren't doing so) are being extremely conservative. Ironic, given that they were rescued 12 years ago by unlimited grants from government plus a policy of 'quantitative easing' which effectively removed the consequences of their foolhardy practices of the previous 10 years.

Virgin Atlantic is not the most profitable airline, but it is a major player in the marketplace, and has around 25% of UK-US traffic. It was looking forward to both returning to profit and some moderate expansion in the short to medium term. There is no logical reason to believe that it cannot continue to hold its own in whatever shape the long-haul market takes after things reopen. As happened after the various shocks that the market has had in the last 25-30 years, there will be a short-term correction before the market returns to growth. It's up to the treasury (and its advisers Morgan Stanley) to assess whether or not the financials make a commercial loan viable or not, and what actions need to be taken by the company to improve its position from their perspective. It should also be borne in mind that the problems for the entire industry were not brought on by the actions of the industry (unlike the banks), but by the actions of governments in shutting down international travel.

However, the reaction by the public - and, surprisingly, people in this forum - to Virgin asking for help has been entirely emotional, uninformed, and essentially spiteful, and fuelled essentially by a distaste of wealth without any consideration of what that wealth represents in terms of the employment it has created, and the fact that it is almost entirely shareholdings in businesses and thus to be released for other purposes would require those shareholdings to be sold - at which point the notional extent of that wealth would be seen to be far less than the Sunday Times estimated in 2019.

The Virgin companies are great places to work, and look after their employees extremely well. Their existence generally works well for their customers as well, though inevitably there are individual stories where that is not so, as is the case for every large company. The UK-registered Virgin companies (which includes Virgin Atlantic) pay their taxes in UK, as of course do the vast majority of their employees.

I am about to retire from the industry, so the future of Virgin Atlantic will not affect me personally, but it would be a crying shame if its 10,000 employees and their families were thrown on the scrapheap because of the braying hoards of uninformed commentators who simply want to stick a finger up to Richard Branson

Very well explained Scroggs - pity we couldnt get this to the public domain / press somehow....

[Capt PPRuNe]

As Scroggs says above, Virgin Atlantic isn't the most profitable airline but it has been struggling for many years against BA with limited access to slots at LHR. As an employee myself with only 10 months to retirement, I can attest to the fact that Virgin has some of the best terms and conditions in the industry for its pilots. After over 15 years with them, it will be sad if they do not survive this crisis but as Scroggs points out above, it won't affect me personally too much. I do however worry about all my colleagues and all the employees of the company who are at risk of being thrown on the scrapheap should the company fail due to not being able to raise sufficient capital to last out the current slump.

At the moment, the company is flying cargo only flights with the B789 and A35K. Those operating to HKG and PVG are potentially soul crushingly long duties. Operated with 7 pilots (3 crews of 2, 2 and 3) and 4 cabin crew fire watch, the duties are over 24 hours and possibly up to 30 hours. Whilst the dispensation has been provided by the CAA for these out and back single duty period trips, I am personally glad that I don't have to operate them as I'm currently furloughed. 24-30 hours in an aircraft, no matter how look at it is not very nice and I applaud the crew who do operate these flights, the majority of which are on behalf of the NHS bringing PPE and other kit back.

Whilst some on here flippantly assume that should the company not survive then most of the employees will be picked up by whoever steps in to fill the gap, it is never quite so simple. Often, it takes a long time for these unfortunate victims to get re-employed and how many would like to bet that the Ts & Cs of any new entrant will never be as good as they have right now. It just pains me to read some of the remarks from posters who obviously have little idea of what they say and obviously just enjoy being part of the baying mob sticking two fingers up at Richard Branson as though he is going to be the one who suffers the most should the company fail. Virgin Atlantic is its 10,000 employees who make the operation work and it is those same employees who month in and month out her fill the HMRC coffers with their income tax and NICs.

Someone worked out recently that the pilots alone will contribute more than £850m to the treasury over the next 20 years. SO let's have a bit of common sense when posting on here, a forum originally designed for professional pilots. Outsiders views are accepted but think about how you appear to us if you go slinging unresearched vitriol.

[zero/zero]

Several have cited a 'return to profitability' - was this not massively dependant on expansion (which helpfully coincided with the 3rd runway debate)? If an airline hasn't been making money in recent years given the market we've been operating in why would it make money in the tough years that will follow?

No, that was part of a longer term expansion plan. The plan for return to profitability had a target of 2021 but was on course to be reached a year early until Coronavirus happened.

[fruitbat]

I don’t think the Government will be swayed by some bad press and a few flimsy petitions against Mr Branson. What they will be looking at is will the loan be repaid? Virgin has struggled to make significant profits in probably the most lucrative time in airline history. Look at the profits their nearest neighbour made in the last few years. The future is going to show a massive decrease in demand for airline travel. Virgins first request for help was turned down as their future business plan was too optimistic. How can they repay a £500 million loan in a massive recession when they couldn’t make a profit in the good times?

Do France and Germany have two full service airlines? The treasury have so many demands on them, I don’t envy their task deciding but I can totally understand how those inside the brand feel so strongly.. the banks advising will be doing this purely on the financials thankfully and not on tabloid press reports...

[cashash]

Seems that Branson has decided to sell after he failed to get a loan from the Government.

Branson races to find Virgin Atlantic buyerSir Richard Branson has set a deadline of the end of May to find a buyer to save stricken airline Virgin Atlanic from collapse

Sir Richard Branson is seeking a buyer for Virgin Atlantic and has set an end-of-May deadline to save the airline from collapse after a taxpayer bailout proved beyond his reach.

The Sunday Telegraph has learnt that the pursuit of a £500m government package has been effectively shelved and that the airline is now focused on securing new private investment in the shadow of potential insolvency.

Houlihan Lokey, the investment bank hired by Virgin Atlantic, has sounded out more than 100 potential financial institutions, with “all options on the table”, sources said.

Roughly 50 potential investors have asked for information and will be whittled down to a handful of bidders.


Telegraph (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/04/25/branson-races-find-virgin-atlantic-buyer/)

[peacheyglobes]

Seems that Branson has decided to sell after he failed to get a loan from the Government.

Just to add to this, I'm not sure that he has failed completely to get a loan - the Government have asked him to resubmit his bid, the FT reporting that they wanted more evidence that shareholders were not able to contribute, and to make the 2-5 year business plans that VS had included more realistic. So a loan is potentially still on the table, however the ball is in Virgin Atlantic's court to resubmit their bid. It seems that VS are instead looking elsewhere for a saviour.

On the face of it though it looks like a shaky business proposition: very few assets, massive debts including $200m to Delta as well as a lot of refunds, and potentially licensing fees for the use of the brand with a backdrop of a very unreliable market over the next months, even longer?

[Andy D]

Seems that Branson has decided to sell after he failed to get a loan from the Government.

Branson races to find Virgin Atlantic buyer
…

Telegraph (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/04/25/branson-races-find-virgin-atlantic-buyer/)

Here’s a non-paywalled version if anyone needs it

Branson races to find Virgin Atlantic buyer (http://archive.is/5rI1Z)

[virgin mary]

News Flash

Virgin Atlantic will survive, with or without Government assistance. The sad difference will be in the number of job losses. But survive it will. History has shown us that the Virgin haters out there are far far outnumbered by the Virgin Lovers. And our passion to survive will of course, eclipse anyones desire to see us fail. And we actually have far more experience than our name suggests!

We have thoroughly enjoyed our 36 years of proving the critics wrong about our viability, profitability and very importantly our desirability. 36 years of keeping up with and at times beating some pretty strong and sometimes down right devious competition. People say we never make money. Well we have always had to spend heavily and fight tooth and nail to maintain our position at Heathrow and Gatwick, which are some of the most fought over slots in the world. We have had to continually reinvest and reinvent ourselves to make sure we have a modern, clean and above all safe product to give our passengers. To have survived this long we must have got something right! Virgin employees are rather well looked after and we come to work with a smile on our faces, enjoying a pretty well funded and healthy working environment. We feel safe in the knowledge that the company is being run well and by people we trust and that have actually made some pretty good provisions for any rainy days. Richard is very protective about this part of his businesses and I feel his recent desire to seek assistance and assurance from all possible sources, including the U.K. government, has given some of the vultures out there, the scent of blood. But these vultures are mistaken if they think there is a carcass in the offing! He may have to dilute his share of the business, but he just wanted to make sure it survives, and this has drawn attention. He does that from time to time.

We started this journey 36 years ago with one single aeroplane. And fought hard to establish our brand and our very unique Virgin style, that despite the haters out there, has flourished and is clearly loved by those that choose to come back to us time and time again, in-spite of the machinations of a few very powerful adversaries. And then there is the workforce who time after time bend over backwards to get the job done and deliver for the customers and each other. We love this company and will fight to ensure it continues to be such a great place to work.

Right now we have only a quarter of our aeroplanes flying, but these few machines are gainfully employed on cargo only operations and every day sees their payloads growing, and with more and more new cargo contracts being taken on, we will soon need to get more of the fleet back flying to help with this.

This is all helping to minimise our daily cash burn and make our cash reserves go a little further. But we can all see what is in front of us, we will now need to make some very painful sacrifices in order to adapt and reconfigure to a more sustainable size, and emerge from this trimmer but fighting fit, for what will be an even tougher and very different market place.

It is heart breaking that we will have to make some very difficult but necessary cuts, and say goodbye to some of our family and friends, and those of us that remain will no doubt be asked to also make sacrifices, tighten out belts and go that little bit further. But we will do what it takes to survive. Our small size will give us the ability to adapt quickly and decisively. But I’ll say it again, we will survive!

We are going to be a thorn in Willie Walsh’s side for a long time yet! But we also wish our friends at BA and all other airlines well! As an industry and as a Company we will get through this together. #Bekind

[Jwscud]

I suspect it’s more likely this is an exercise in proving to HMG that there is no commercially viable source of capital and thus a government loan is required.

My thoughts with my friends either side of the door at VS. Many of us may be sharing your situation soon.

[Count von Altibar]

There's a lot of hopeful people posting which is totally understandable either employed or used to work there. I'm afraid it really looks like things are stacked massively against Virgin Atlantic, survival is unlikely given the money they owe to Delta and a complete lack of assets to secure treasury/bank loans against. Hopefully Richard Branson can come up with a buyer in the coming days but who wants to buy an airline in a depression and what type of an aviation market are we all coming back to after May. It just doesn't look good at all for Virgin Atlantic.

[peacheyglobes]

I suspect it’s more likely this is an exercise in proving to HMG that there is no commercially viable source of capital and thus a government loan is required.

My thoughts with my friends either side of the door at VS. Many of us may be sharing your situation soon.

It wouldn't seem to prove to HMG that as a dominant shareholder Virgin Group (including SRB himself) are unable to raise these funds. It may be saying 'look, we tried' but this doesn't show how SRB couldn't raise funds through for instance equity sale of his Virgin Galactic enterprise, or mortgaging of his own assets including Necker Island.

[xray one]

Kirks gusset wrote a pointless post:

Why on earth didn't Branson just let the Virgin Board CEO do the talking? he's the one who's now made this a personal crusade.

So the other headline would have been, 'Branson hides on his island letting the crew fight his battles...'

[Ex Cargo Clown]

They'll be another issue here. If VS is bailed out then BE and TCX will go mad. One rule for one, one for another.....

[Bora Bora]

I think you'll agree those were different times, Cargo C. Even though FlyBe went bust just after the virus started biting, the fact they went so quickly was because they had already dug a deep hole in the years before. Virgin was a good running airline that - had corona not derailed things - would still have been ticking along nicely. And for years, if not decades, to come. So an invalid argument, I'm afraid.

[pudoc]

They'll be another issue here. If VS is bailed out then BE and TCX will go mad. One rule for one, one for another.....

This has already been mentioned and answered. The difference is BE and TCX were struggling when times were good, Virgin weren’t. COVID was just the final straw for BE having nearly collapsed a year prior.

[RexBanner]

Flybe were always going to go to the wall in March. I’d already seen an interview with Michael O’Leary a few weeks earlier where he’d said that’s when their money would run out. Now admittedly he’s called a lot of failures which subsequently didn’t happen but he must have crunched the numbers. Coronavirus played very little part (if any) to the demise of Flybe in the end.

[foxvc10]

Does the airline own the aircraft?

[TURIN]

News Flash

Virgin Atlantic will survive, with or without Government assistance.....

We are going to be a thorn in Willie Walsh’s side for a long time yet! But we also wish our friends at BA and all other airlines well! As an industry and as a Company we will get through this together. #Bekind
Walsh was supposed to have stepped aside by now. He has stayed on to get through this uncertain time.

If Virgin survive it won't be Walsh you have to worry about.

[pudoc]

Does the airline own the aircraft?

A decent proportion of them.

[fruitbat]

Eye opening figures when you think about it..

“Virgin accumulated £211m of losses last decade for a negative 0.1% operating margin. British Airways made £11 billion at a 10% margin”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton1/2020/04/26/branson-to-sell-virgin-atlantic-iconic-brand-but-chronic-losses/#59fdbf3a6ea2

[dead_pan]

If they weren't so hard-pressed themselves I reckon one of the Gulf carriers could have been tempted to take a punt on Virgin, at a knock-down price of course.

[spottyemm]

Which would be very nice for the employees......unfortunately EU airline ownership rules still apply.

[xray one]

fruitbat wrote:

Eye opening figures when you think about it..

There are many reasons why there is a large discrepancy between the 2 Airlines - size is your starter for ten. Some are of Virgin's making others not. Virgin's main mistake was the purchase of 19 A340-600s (4 engines 4 long haul) with out a doubt the 777 was a far better option. As a long haul only Airline we don't have the luxury of a short haul operation to feeds us - we can discuss the failing of Little Red at a later date, suffice to say operating only a handful of destinations (minus GLA) was always going to be difficult. We didn't get gifted a brand new terminal (I don't mean free by gifting - it's the ability to have your own brand new terminal) As has been said before, the ducks were now in a row with brand new fleet of A330s Neo's from next year, A350s and B789s, 2 engine fuel efficient aircraft, a better route structure and a feeded in the USA with Delta. We would never make Billions but we would employ 10,000 people, give a great service and put £350/400 million per year in the treasuries coffers.

Really, what's wrong with that?

[BirdmanBerry]

News Flash
This is all helping to minimise our daily cash burn and make our cash reserves go a little further.

According to Companies House accounts VA have no cash reserves, they're in negative retained profit.

[WHBM]

and put £350/400 million per year in the treasuries coffers.
However can VA anticipate this level of profit, to put that much corporation tax into the UK government Treasury, given that

“Virgin accumulated £211m of losses last decade for a negative 0.1% operating margin. British Airways made £11 billion at a 10% margin”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhor.../#59fdbf3a6ea2 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton1/2020/04/26/branson-to-sell-virgin-atlantic-iconic-brand-but-chronic-losses/#59fdbf3a6ea2)
Those losses despite being centred at what is probably the best O&D hub in the world for business travel demand.

As I understand it, Virgin Atlantic may do fine financially each year, but under the "Starbucks Method" of accounting, whatever level of profit they anticipate in any year is then sucked out beyond the reach of Her Majesty's Government by Virgin Group Holdings Ltd, based beyond the taxman's reach in an obscure accountant's office in the British Virgin Islands (not one of VA's Caribbean destinations; largest aircraft serving there is an ATR), which invoices for the "Use of Brand", which appears in Virgin Atlantic's accounts as a "marketing expense".

[BleedingOn]

WHBM the £350-400 million that X-ray one refers to is not corporation tax but PAYE and NIC from the employees

[truckflyer]

WHBM the £350-400 million that X-ray one refers to is not corporation tax but PAYE and NIC from the employees

The problem with "creative accounting" such as "expense to Virgin Islands", to dilute company profits and pay less Company tax, creates a problem when you ask for a loan.
Someone lending them money would want to do due diligence, and see if they will be viable to pay "our" money back again.

I am guessing who ever checked the company and asked them to make a new application for government funds, can't have been happy with what they saw.

I can set up a company, and turn around large amounts of money, and I can also spend on all kind of relevant business expenses, which benefits me so I pay less tax. However if I go to the bank, and show no profits, they will not give me a loan, just because I tell them I can pay all my staff, but over a decade I have made negative profit, they not going to be very convinced that I will be able to pay them back the loan I am applying for.

[Andy D]

As I understand it, Virgin Atlantic may do fine financially each year, but under the "Starbucks Method" of accounting, whatever level of profit they anticipate in any year is then sucked out beyond the reach of Her Majesty's Government by Virgin Group Holdings Ltd, based beyond the taxman's reach in an obscure accountant's office in the British Virgin Islands (not one of VA's Caribbean destinations; largest aircraft serving there is an ATR), which invoices for the "Use of Brand", which appears in Virgin Atlantic's accounts as a "marketing expense".

Interestingly, the initial stage of licensing seems to be run through a UK company – VAL TM Limited – and in the five financial years 2014–18 it received £61m in royalty payments from Virgin Atlantic

£ (,000)
2014 10,745
2015 12,183
2016 12,329
2017 12,637
2018 13,157

Even from a quick wander around companies house (and there are other data sources), it's possible to tease quite a bit of the corporate structure and cashflows apart if someone has time, will of course loose sight when the cash is transferred to BVI companies and family trusts though

[cjhants]

In a previous incarnation, I used to work for a Bank, lending millions to companies.

In putting together a proposal to my directors, they would want to know.

1. Is the lending properly secured.
2. If/when the company goes bust how quickly can we turn the secured assets into cash.
3. For taking the “risk”, how much can we charge in interest and fees.

we were often dealing with loss making entities who had a business turnaround plan, which is why they needed the funds in the first place. I would guess with Virgin, the problem may be no 2, Necker and second hand airframes may be slow moving sellers.

Virgin has been my long haul carrier of choice for many years, and really hope they can get through this one way or another.

[WHBM]

There are other money diverters as well. Even Delta has apparently got a claim on a large sum, USD 200m, relating to their JV, described by the Delta CEO here :

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton1/2020/04/23/virgin-atlantic-owes-delta-200-million-wont-receive-cash-from-us-shareholder/#3202f14630d2

now it's not particularly apparent what this is for, but if it's "related to their JV" it doesn't sound like payment for any goods received, which in any event would never be allowed to get up to that level anyway. The statement there that it's an amount "the airlines agreed earlier this year" is a bit opaque about it. JVs do not normally require one party to pay the other large sums. Is this just some further part of a tax management money-go-round ?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Mr Branson is very careful not to make too much of a taxable profit but is very keen on collecting his dividend from his brand licensing company based in a tax haven.

When it comes to taxpayer funded loans the back of the queue is clearly visible.

Virgin Group Holdings payments appears in Virgin Atlantic's accounts as a "marketing expense". Virgin Enterprises collects royalties from global Virgin brands. In 2018, it reported revenues of £75 million, £51 million pre-tax profit and paid £9 million corporation tax. It paid an £85 million dividend to its sole shareholder: Virgin Group Holdings.


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x513/7d4792c1_1d35_492a_aa3c_5f0720a2a020_05d5f3ef81917e3535b54fe 3102eec231caaf517.png




WWW

[WHBM]

WWW : Could you calibrate what your chart is showing please (I am guessing it is showing PreTax margin as a % of revenue).

Any commercial bank you showed that to would run a mile from the red company.

A question we may ask is why the difference, given BA's long-established pension liabilities, its substantial short haul and domestic operations which everyone tells us are always unprofitable (though those too are subject to creative accounting), significant in-house UK-based overhaul facilities, and all the posts on here about overpaid Nigels, bloated Waterside bureaucracy, etc.

[RexBanner]

WWW : Could you calibrate what your chart is showing please (I am guessing it is showing PreTax margin as a % of revenue).

Any commercial bank you showed that to would run a mile from the red company.

A question we may ask is why the difference, given BA's long-established pension liabilities, its substantial short haul and domestic operations which everyone tells us are always unprofitable (though those too are subject to creative accounting), significant in-house UK-based overhaul facilities, and all the posts on here about overpaid Nigels, bloated Waterside bureaucracy, etc.

Three words; economies of scale. I think you’ll find VS pilots are better paid than their BA counterparts in any case, we’re also more productive too (controversial topic).

[KYT]

A question we may ask is why the difference, given BA's long-established pension liabilities,

I seem to remember BA had a massive pension black hole debt....what happened to it?

Do they still have it, were they bailed out, did they find reinvestment, was it written off, or were the Company allowed to work off the debt? Whichever it was, it’s a bluddy good job there wasn’t a Corona virus outbreak back then, otherwise the Government might have had to bail THEM out, heaven forbid!!!

[kintyred]

Three words; economies of scale. I think you’ll find VS pilots are better paid than their BA counterparts in any case, we’re also more productive too (controversial topic).

Hi Rex,

Could you explain to a military man how you calculate the productivity of a civvy pilot? Apologies for the thread drift

[RexBanner]

Well without knowing the ins and outs of Virgin’s scheduling agreement I do know that they are limited to 700 hours a year, whereas we at BA are up to 900 and in very many cases on Long Haul we hit it. However these are (relatively speaking of course) marginal gains for Flight Ops and do not begin to explain the large disparity between the operating margin at BA and VS, there’s other factors at play there.

[A320baby]

750 In Virgin and in recent years I've flown over or close to it.

[Capt Scribble]

Kintyred. Legal limits on duty and flying hours are stipulated by EU regs, 900hrs a year and 100hrs a month (there are other limits). Local agreements may limit these to lower values. So if you are paid a salary for flying 900 hrs a year but only rostered for 500 hrs, the company is not getting full value from its contract with you. I flew with a holiday charter, where high monthly hours were achieved over the summer but winter work was pretty sparse so no more than 600 hrs was usual for us. With someone like BA/Virgin, who have more constant work across the year, 900/700 is achievable and therefore their pilots Achieve high productivity.

[M.Mouse]

I seem to remember BA had a massive pension black hole debt....what happened to it?

Do they still have it, were they bailed out, did they find reinvestment, was it written off, or were the Company allowed to work off the debt?

Over the past years BA have been paying large sums into the scheme to pay off the deficit. They continue to do so. The last iteration of the defined benefit scheme was finally closed to existing members a couple of years ago having been unavailable to new joiners for some time before that.

[Riskybis]

All depends on the fleet , at BA on the 787 I was worked VERY hard almost to the point of questioning what I was doing in aviation, As I thought it would have been much better than the 320 .
I still have mates at BA now and they don’t understand that the lifestyle on LH will be worse than the 4 year seniority they have on SH . Certainly get the productivity out of you unless your ultra senior PP24 But those days are well and truly over

[Tags]

Well without knowing the ins and outs of Virgin’s scheduling agreement I do know that they are limited to 700 hours a year, whereas we at BA are up to 900 and in very many cases on Long Haul we hit it. However these are (relatively speaking of course) marginal gains for Flight Ops and do not begin to explain the large disparity between the operating margin at BA and VS, there’s other factors at play there.

Its almost impossible to make a like for like comparison. Many trips that both airlines fly are crewed differently, at least half a dozen I can think of in Virgin are 2 pilots/1 local night/ 3 day trips, that BA do with either 3 pilots or 2 local nights downroute. Virgin pilots may fly less hours but with the limited network and different industrial agreements, pilots on the Airbus in particular will have done all 750 hours in the seat in the last few years.

[kintyred]

Kintyred. Legal limits on duty and flying hours are stipulated by EU regs, 900hrs a year and 100hrs a month (there are other limits). Local agreements may limit these to lower values. So if you are paid a salary for flying 900 hrs a year but only rostered for 500 hrs, the company is not getting full value from its contract with you. I flew with a holiday charter, where high monthly hours were achieved over the summer but winter work was pretty sparse so no more than 600 hrs was usual for us. With someone like BA/Virgin, who have more constant work across the year, 900/700 is achievable and therefore their pilots Achieve high productivity.

All very interesting. I hope the accountants never take a look in my logbook!

[GKOC41]

I somehow doubt any 750 or 900 hour limit is going to be an issue and Aircrew will have bigger issues to worry about.

[Burpbot]

All very interesting. I hope the accountants never take a look in my logbook!
Wow! Naive!

[virgin mary]

Virgin Atlantic announces 90 cargo flights per week starting in May.

https://virginatlanticcargo.com/content/dam/cargo/Pressreleases/PR_90cargoflights.pdf

[A320baby]

Virgin Atlantic announces 90 cargo flights per week starting in May.

https://virginatlanticcargo.com/content/dam/cargo/Pressreleases/PR_90cargoflights.pdf


There's a lot of fight in the old girl yet! :)

[xray one]

Hopefully the Government get the message as well.

[Riskybis]

Hopefully the Government get the message as well.

fingers crossed pal

[squarecrow]

https://www.headforpoints.com/2020/04/28/wizz-air-gets-a-300-million-uk-government-bailout/

[A320baby]

https://www.headforpoints.com/2020/04/28/wizz-air-gets-a-300-million-uk-government-bailout/
Virgin haven't been denied a package, they was told to resubmit and negotiations are on going.

[5strypes]

Any update on VS situation? Are the 90 cargo flights a week enough to help tide them over for some time?

[ORAC]

Virgin Atlantic to cease operations out of Gatwick and cut one third of staff, 3150 in total.

Gatwick slots to be retained pending the future. At least some of 747 fleet to be retired.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-virgin-atlantic-to-axe-3-000-jobs-in-battle-for-survival-11983452

[Professor Plum]

Hope all works out well for you guys. Got a few friends gatwick based working for Virgin

[RoyHudd]

Easy to understand and yet hard to quite believe. The profession is being rent asunder, and perhaps for each pilot one can count 8 support staff within the airline plus many service folk outside. I wish to express my deep concern for all affected by this awful situation. Let us hope that the airline world bounces back as it did in the year following the 9/11 attacks. I somehow doubt it.

[DooblerChina]

What’s the plan? what about MAN/GLA etc... LIFO? or fleet based?

All the best guys and girls.

[BlackIsle]

Well the 747-400 fleet of 7 has seemingly been retired with immediate effect....Bye-bye Boeing 747Passengers hoping to fly on Virgin Atlantic’s 747s before the expected final boarding call in 2021 are, unfortunately, out of luck. In a statement sent to Simple Flying today, the airline said:
“As Virgin Atlantic aims to establish itself as the sustainability leader, it will fly only wide-body, twin-engine aircraft from London Heathrow and Manchester to the most popular destinations… From today, Virgin Atlantic will no longer use all of its seven 747-400s, with four A330-200 aircraft retiring in early 2022 as planned.”

[esscee]

Read the statement more carefully. "No longer use ALL of its 7 747-400's". Which implies some will be used as and when. Likely they will not pay for any more big checks but utilise the fleet of 747's as cheaply as possible until the Big checks are due.

[Suzeman]

Read the statement more carefully. "No longer use ALL of its 7 747-400's". Which implies some will be used as and when. Likely they will not pay for any more big checks but utilise the fleet of 747's as cheaply as possible until the Big checks are due.

Read the statement more carefully. How does the above square with the statement below?

it will fly only wide-body, twin-engine aircraft from London Heathrow and Manchester to the most popular destinations…

So some conflict here. I wonder if "No longer use ALL of its 7 747-400's" is where ALL actually means the whole fleet?

[A320baby]

All the 747s are going.

[Suzeman]

All the 747s are going.

Yes that was my understanding too. Currently 5 at MAN now.

[zfw]

"VS official twitter account responded to a customer this morning saying as of 5th May all 7 747’s will be retired"

From Rumours and News

[DaveReidUK]

Read the statement more carefully. "No longer use ALL of its 7 747-400's". Which implies some will be used as and when.

Either that, or more likely it was written by someone who doesn't understand the difference between "all" and "any".

[Count von Altibar]

Apparently there are 426 pilots at risk, that seems a lot probably around 40% of the total amount. I guess this can be mitigated by part-time,VR etc. What's happening to the A330 fleet will they keep going or is it all 350/787 from now on?

[lurkio]

Maybe a lot of the 747 fleet pilots were more senior and riding it until the end and may have taken part time. That would account for a higher figure per aircraft. Still a great shame to see them go as they were awesome to operate (and fly).

[Holer Moler]

Virgin Atlantic Airways problems are just the tip of the iceberg. still no sign of securing a government loan & yesterdays announcement might not have gone far enough. I think most of the senior 74 guys saw the light and moved over to the 78 fleet a couple of years ago however you will always get a few nostalgic guys that wanted to hang on to the end, unfortunately to their detriment as redundancies will be by Fleet/Rank/Matrix - what ever that is!

[Adambrau]

Look if Norwegian can apparently seem to stay alive I think VS will find a way too.

[KYT]

Virgin Atlantic Airways problems are just the tip of the iceberg. still no sign of securing a government loan & yesterdays announcement might not have gone far enough. I think most of the senior 74 guys saw the light and moved over to the 78 fleet a couple of years ago however you will always get a few nostalgic guys that wanted to hang on to the end, unfortunately to their detriment as redundancies will be by Fleet/Rank/Matrix - what ever that is!

And many who weren’t allowed to change fleet, whilst being reassured their position in the Company was safe!

[Holer Moler]

KYT's comments are correct -many senior guys on the 400 were held back from moving onto the 78 or the Bus too maintain a certain level of experience on the fleet- however they were assured that their positions would be safe in the event of another crisis and now they have been double crossed.- I sincerely hope that they have saved documentary evidence of this at the time it was published.

Some of the more senior guys have given the company 25 years + through thick and thin & yet guys who have been in the company less than 4 years will escape the Axe. What ever happens at Virgin Atlantic Airways things will never be the same.

[fruitbat]

Whilst I hope the unions can drastically reduce the number, even the whole 744 fleet can’t be anywhere near 426 strong? So there must be another method of selection as well. Good luck to all.

[farefield]

Read the thread, " Fleet/Rank/Matrix"!

[Club World]

I thought VS was heavily seniority based and worked on the principal of LIFO?

Quite a few people started in Dec 2019 and Jan this year, is there some hope they won’t face the axe for certain?

[James7]

When times are tough the first item to go is the shiny new car sitting in the garage. Virgin should dump all those expensive new aircraft, they are all leased at around $1m/month, the 747 is a fraction of that. Fuel is cheap. ETOPS maintenance is very expensive.
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1399391

[davidjpowell]

When times are tough the first item to go is the shiny new car sitting in the garage. Virgin should dump all those expensive new aircraft, they are all leased at around $1m/month, the 747 is a fraction of that. Fuel is cheap. ETOPS maintenance is very expensive.
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1399391
Although there would be a cost to get out of those leases.

[procede]

When times are tough the first item to go is the shiny new car sitting in the garage. Virgin should dump all those expensive new aircraft, they are all leased at around $1m/month, the 747 is a fraction of that. Fuel is cheap. ETOPS maintenance is very expensive.
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1399391

$1 m a month sounds like a long term financial lease. Ironically, it is actually easier (and cheaper) to get rid of owned aircraft than leased aircraft (under normal economic circumstances). Owned aircraft you can just sell, leased aircraft require all sorts of negotiation and legal work, especially if the lease has not expired yet... Even when the lease term is over, there are lots of loopholes to jump through.

[Jonty]

And then there’s the cost of maintenance on and old 747 with 4 engines, compared to an A350 let’s say.

[Big Tudor]

When times are tough the first item to go is the shiny new car sitting in the garage. Virgin should dump all those expensive new aircraft, they are all leased at around $1m/month, the 747 is a fraction of that. Fuel is cheap. ETOPS maintenance is very expensive
It is well rumoured that governments are at least considering, if not demanding, that company loans and/or bail out are conditional on a reduced carbon footprint in the future. whilst the older gas-guzzlers may be cheaper to own, they may not satisfy the requirements for environmental consideration. I fear we may be seeing a quicker twilight for the B747 (and possibly A380) as passenger aircraft.

[GKOC41]

Maybe a lot of the 747 fleet pilots were more senior and riding it until the end and may have taken part time. That would account for a higher figure per aircraft. Still a great shame to see them go as they were awesome to operate (and fly).
If crews are part time the crews per aircraft ratio remain the same just the number of actual pilots would be higher. So if 2 Captains are 50% that makes 1 Captain.
747 en route LGW-GLA

[James7]

At the rate Virgin are losing cash, the leasing companies may be getting the aircraft back sooner than later. Virgin could clear out all the seats and use the 747 as freighters, they would not even have the expense of putting the seats back. A few airlines are doing just that, filing the cabin with light freight.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton1/2020/04/13/these-airlines-will-next-remove-seats-to-carry-cargo-and-medical-supplies-on-passenger-aircraft-turned-into-freighters/#601af64a6093

https://www.forbes.com/sites/cathybuyck/2020/03/26/airlines-spot-revenue-opportunity-and-use-their-passenger-aircraft-to-ship-urgent-cargo/#9eb0e517c688

https://theloadstar.com/air-freight-rates-the-highest-ive-ever-seen-as-demand-for-freighters-rises/

[101917]

One of considerations that both BA and Virgin, along with other airlines, must take into account when they make pilots compulsory redundant is to use a procedure that is fair and reasonable under all circumstances. In other words they should identify a fair selection criteria which identifies those pilots they retain and those they make compulsory redundant.

They must not discriminate. There is no doubt that LIFO is a straight forward simple system. However, since the introduction of the equality and anti-discrimination legislation LIFO cannot be used as the only methodology. The reason being that it is probable that the most likely individuals selected for redundancy will be young and this will amount to age discrimination and allow an individual/s to have a pop at a company for indirect age discrimination.

It is important that fair criteria are used to select individuals for redundancy. If LIFO is one of the benchmarks used it should not be weighted more heavily than other criteria such as disciplinary records, attendance records (Absence for pregnancy should be ignored), work performance, qualifications, experience etc.

Companies have the flexibility to choose the most appropriate criteria to reflect the skills they wish to retain. Ideally selection criteria should be entirely objective but if qualitative criteria are also used they must be supported by evidence to avoid complaints of bias and opinion.

As an example, it is probable that if a company wanted to get rid of a whole fleet – B747 – then that would not be seen as being discriminatory because those positions would no longer be available. However, if a company was to make all the most junior captains and first officers on a fleet, (based solely on LIFO), redundant because they were reducing the numbers of aircraft operated, then that would probably be seen by the courts to be discriminatory. It would also allow those pilots the right of appeal against their compulsory redundancy.

Skilful negotiation is going to be required by pilot representatives in both BA and Virgin if they are to get the best deal they can for their pilots.

[TURIN]

A process used for a bunch of engineers about twenty years ago was a points system based on a combination of LIFO, qualifications and (initially) sickness and disciplinary record

It was later agreed that sickness and disciplinary record were unfair and open to questionable intepretation.

[RexBanner]

As an example, it is probable that if a company wanted to get rid of a whole fleet – B747 – then that would not be seen as being discriminatory because those positions would no longer be available. However, if a company was to make all the most junior captains and first officers on a fleet, (based solely on LIFO), redundant because they were reducing the numbers of aircraft operated, then that would probably be seen by the courts to be discriminatory. It would also allow those pilots the right of appeal against their compulsory redundancy.

The key word there is solely. That is exactly how Flybe were going to chop people in 2013. However they used a matrix with lifo being the most dominant factor. God knows how BA want to do it (aside from an equal number of Captains and FOs) because Balpa are not telling us at the moment, I’m sure at the equivalent point in this process back then we already knew who was at risk.

[B744IRE]

Can anyone tell me the maximum age for a Type Rating Conversion Course in VAA...is it 57 or 62?
If still 57 then the B744 Captains will be gardening soon,

[Douglas Bahada]

Virgin Atlantic’s planned 3,150 job cuts will show the airline is taking “self-help” measures and help it to win financial support from either the British government or a private sector investor, an internal memo to pilots seen by Reuters said.In an internal memo dated May 6 which was addressed “Dear Pilots”, the airline said that it only needed 550 pilots out of about 1,000 currently, and that shedding jobs would help it win new investment.

“In order for us to qualify for financial support from HM Government or the private sector it is critical that we demonstrate that we have taken all self-help measures in a timely fashion so we can secure the funding we need to survive,” the memo said.

When asked about the memo, Virgin, which is in a consultation period with unions over the redundancies, said it continued to explore options for additional funding with the government and private investors.

Sad times.

[A320baby]

Can anyone tell me the maximum age for a Type Rating Conversion Course in VAA...is it 57 or 62?
If still 57 then the B744 Captains will be gardening soon,

what is the point of this very insensitive post?!

[B744IRE]

A320 Baby...the point is...when the retirement age was increased to 65 VAA conveniently forgot to raise the maximum age for a type conversion course from 57 to 62 (3 years remaining). This gave the company an 8 year window to get rid of senior B744 pilots should the need arise.

[James7]

James7 wrote:



please can you back this up with solid evidence? If not just stop spouting your 'best guess'

Richard Branson : "The challenge right now is that there is no money coming in and lots going out."

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/richard-branson-open-letter-virgin-bailout-coronavirus-a4418496.html

No spouting required. Same for most airlines as previously stated.

[Albert Hall]

A320 Baby...the point is...when the retirement age was increased to 65 VAA conveniently forgot to raise the maximum age for a type conversion course from 57 to 62 (3 years remaining). This gave the company an 8 year window to get rid of senior B744 pilots should the need arise.

An anomaly which I understand was fixed several years ago when the 787 introduction was under way. It's no longer an issue.

[keitaidenwa]

$1 m a month sounds like a long term financial lease. Ironically, it is actually easier (and cheaper) to get rid of owned aircraft than leased aircraft (under normal economic circumstances). Owned aircraft you can just sell, leased aircraft require all sorts of negotiation and legal work, especially if the lease has not expired yet... Even when the lease term is over, there are lots of loopholes to jump through.
Right now, whoever had their engines under power-by-hour is laughing their way to the bank. Or well, probably the rest of plane is still under monthly lease, so it's more like they cry somewhat less than their competitors...

[procede]

Right now, whoever had their engines under power-by-hour is laughing their way to the bank. Or well, probably the rest of plane is still under monthly lease, so it's more like they cry somewhat less than their competitors...
The power by the hour only covers spares and maintenance costs. You still need to pay a fixed amount for the engine itself. I think the extra savings will thus be quite limited.

[MCDU2]

Right now, whoever had their engines under power-by-hour is laughing their way to the bank. Or well, probably the rest of plane is still under monthly lease, so it's more like they cry somewhat less than their competitors...

The only thing that anyone can say for certain is that the bigger the airline/group the higher the likelihood of gaining attractive terms from its creditors. Smaller airlines will conversely be allowed to fail.

[Wickerbill]

The only thing that anyone can say for certain is that the bigger the airline/group the higher the likelihood of gaining attractive terms from its creditors. Smaller airlines will conversely be allowed to fail.
This is not necessarily the case. Creditors will lean towards those companies who can repay their debt and service it properly, irrespective of size. The exception ( and perhaps what you are alluding to) is where lenders are so heavily over-exposed that allowing the company to fail will immediately crystallize enormous losses.Here there is a willingness to kick the can down the road; keep it going with the hope it gets better or the tough descisions will at least fall on someone else's shoulders. Hence the rise of zombie companies who cannot realistically pay back their debt and can't make real profits because of their debt servicing. In our industry I would cite Thomas Cook Group, and currently Norwegian. Many many others are heading down the same path.

[Holer Moler]

Sky news are reporting at 1250 today that, Virgin Atlantic Airways has put advisers on standby to handle a potential administration as it races to secure a £500m rescue that would enable Sir Richard Branson’s flagship company to survive the coronavirus pandemic.

[UAV689]

Saw a vs 330 on its way to donnie today, surprised not already parked away from an expensive lhr.

[Smooth Airperator]

Hence the rise of zombie companies who cannot realistically pay back their debt

No surprise really that organisations are now run like most countries of the world.

[ericlday]

G VGBR positioned LHR - DSA followed by G VSXY

[fruitbat]

Delta won’t be happy if their share of VS is wiped out in any administration process.

[Wickerbill]

Delta won’t be happy if their share of VS is wiped out in any administration process.
I don't think they care right now, they are too consumed by trying to save their own skin.

[Livesinafield]

Delta won’t be happy if their share of VS is wiped out in any administration process.


If they are worried they should put their hands in their very deep pockets.

As suggested I don't think they care right now, they have bigger things to worry about

[Banana4321]

Delta won’t be happy if their share of VS is wiped out in any administration process.
Delta won't care about their 49%, their primary interest will be in their own survival. Digging out a minority-owned subsidiary won't be top of their list, or second, or third, or fourth....

VA (just VA, I am going to use initials like most humans), is not a major player and therefore won't be HMG's primary occupation, no matter which website site owner flies in the left-hand seat.

I am not saying that I agree with any of the above, but HMG simply does not have the latitude to engage in secondary players. PAYE etc income will be immaterial and probably doesn't matter if BA or VA writes the monthly cheque to HMC&E. There's only so many people and planes that will be flying this time next month/year/decade, and it doesn't matter what the paint scheme is - it does matter if HMG is pissing good money after bad....

Then there is NATS, most of whom's income come from Trans-Atlantic routes, again, no matter what the paint scheme.

[LGW Vulture]

- it does matter if HMG is pissing good money after bad....

HMG are pissing away billions already to save the already very old and frail.

So why not spend a bit more on carriers that the Government have single handedly driven to bankruptcy.

[fruitbat]

The Telegraph are reporting Greybull, formerly of Monarch fame, are one of the interested parties in VS. They see VS as “viable, but in need of restructuring”

[Chris2303]

HMG are pissing away billions already to save the already very old and frail.

And what if those old and frail were your relatives?

[zfw]

The Telegraph are reporting Greybull, formerly of Monarch fame, are one of the interested parties in VS. They see VS as “viable, but in need of restructuring”

The kiss of death, anything this lot touch ends in disaster.

[UAV689]

The kiss of death, anything this lot touch ends in disaster.

monach, comet, reiley’s, morrisons local, milked british steel...

Not venture capitalists, but vulture.

[Andy D]

So why not spend a bit more on carriers that the Government have single handedly driven to bankruptcy.

That airlines are going bust in the Government's fault is a popular narrative around these parts.

But the reality is there's a collapse in demand, even if airlines could fly normally, passengers don't want to fly - read yesterday something along the lines of average internal flight in US has 17 passengers, and internationals have 29.

There are real questions about the way VS is structured, and the impact that has on it being a viable company - relying on huge amounts of debt to run a sometimes profitable / often loss making business leads to there being no breathing room when catastrophe strikes.

And that leveraged corporate structure is ultimately down to VS' management and shareholders

Aware airlines going bust has a massive personal impact on the people who work for them, and being specialised makes many people have made significant investments in their careers

[turbine100]

Greybull didnt exactly do a great job at Monarch, Delta had money from the U.S Government and are not allowed to use that for VA. Perhaps VA's announcement of having the administrators on standby or advising, is to show the Government they have done everything they can. Insolvency laws are to have proposed changes put through parliament next week, which might benefit VA.

It will depend on the cash in the bank, daily cash flow for how long they have left. The new CEO is a good guy with a finance background. Hopefully VA have done enough to get a loan from the government with the recent cut backs and restructure the business model for the future, perhaps diversifying in cargo. Many third party suppliers and their employees would be affected if they went.

VA have some really good people, all are working hard to help the company as much as they can. I wish the best outcome for everybody at VA, to get through this and continue to compete against BA.

[Go4PoweredDecent]

Better to go bust than let Redbull come in and steal everything, including your pension.

[BBK]

Quote

“VA (just VA, I am going to use initials like most humans), is not a major player and therefore won't be HMG's primary occupation, no matter which website site owner flies in the left-hand seat.”

Banana4321

if you really must use an abbreviation the perhaps the correct IATA one which is VS. Any professional in the airline industry would know that. VA is the code for Virgin Australia discussed elsewhere.

Also, I think you will find that the insinuation about the website owner is out of date.

[DaveReidUK]

if you really must use an abbreviation the perhaps the correct IATA one which is VS. Any professional in the airline industry would know that. VA is the code for Virgin Australia discussed elsewhere.

You might want to keep an eye on the Southwest 737 thread, in case anyone should dare to use SW as an abbreviation for that airline. :O

[Count von Altibar]

Looks like Virgin Atlantic are preparing for insolvency according to this news article. The 14 day quarantine announcement is a disaster for UK airlines no doubt I guess we have to face up to company failures, what a bad time to be an airline pilot. Good luck to VS let's hope Branson can come up with some emergency funding.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-virgin-atlantic-puts-a-m-on-standby-in-race-for-funds-11985678

[Holer Moler]

Ohhh dear- This company doesn't exactly fill me with confidence. Q- If VS goes into administration what happens to the LHR slots as I believe they are mortgaged ?

​​​​​​https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/uk-news/2019/05/22/string-of-firms-that-failed-under-controversial-owner-greybull-capital/

[Longtimer]

And what if those old and frail were your relatives?
And don't forget ,,,, the old and frail do spend a lot of $$$$ on vacation travel which of course includes air. And another positive, they rarely have to be taken off the aircraft because of misbehavior. :)

[LGW Vulture]

And don't forget ,,,, the old and frail do spend a lot of $$$$ on vacation travel which of course includes air. And another positive, they rarely have to be taken off the aircraft because of misbehavior. :)

My Father is 85 and frail and I didnt make such a comment with a blase approach. However, I have been on enough flights diverted to other airports because of seniors becoming ill. Never have I been diverted due to misbehaviour. And on average, I fly 80 sectors per year worldwide.

[Longtimer]

My Father is 85 and frail and I didnt make such a comment with a blase approach. However, I have been on enough flights diverted to other airports because of seniors becoming ill. Never have I been diverted due to misbehaviour. And on average, I fly 80 sectors per year worldwide.
80 sectors a year... hmmm flights diverted to other airports because of seniors hmmmm Strange I don't remember many but perhaps the news did not report them.
The Aviation Herald (http://www.avherald.com/h?search_term=illness&opt=4097&dosearch=1&search.x=0&search.y=0)

[tcasblue]

I would think that the government, which no doubt is in a huge debt situation and limited money should be more concerned about companies like Rolls Royce. New airlines pop up when the economy recovers....engine manufacturers, not so easy.

[LGW Vulture]

80 sectors a year... hmmm flights diverted to other airports because of seniors hmmmm Strange I don't remember many but perhaps the news did not report them.
The Aviation Herald (http://www.avherald.com/h?search_term=illness&opt=4097&dosearch=1&search.x=0&search.y=0)

Your latter assumption is correct.

[beardy]

My Father is 85 and frail and I didnt make such a comment with a blase approach. However, I have been on enough flights diverted to other airports because of seniors becoming ill. Never have I been diverted due to misbehaviour. And on average, I fly 80 sectors per year worldwide.
I have flown many more than 80 sectors per year, as captain, for more than 20 years and can remember both medical diversions. One was a gentleman in his 50s the other a lady who was hemorrhaging and sadly lost her baby.
An anecdote does not necessarily tell the whole story and is, on its own, useless in compiling statistics.

[Uplinker]

Monarch, Comet, Reiley’s, Morrison's local, milked British Steel...

Not venture capitalists, but vulture.

(my bold and capitals)

As a former Monarch victim; if these particular venture capitalists get involved, then it's probably all over. They are the equivalent of a house clearance company. They put a big skip on the driveway and pick over what they can sell, chucking everything else into the skip; and that includes the employees. Get out of there and take your DB pension - if you have one - while you still can.

[t1grm]

So how does this affect Virgin Holidays? I know they are a separate company but presumably if VS stop flying then Virgin Holidays are not really going to be able to fulfil their commitments. Would they be obliged to get people to their destinations on other carriers? I have a holiday booked through them to Antigua in October.

[Superpilot]

Expect them to be picked up by the social dumping experts that are Eastern European ACMIs (yes, they're starting to get heavy metal now too)

[advent]

I think what ‘superpilot’ is saying is correct.. Your holiday flight may well go well on time, albeit with an operator (fully authorised and competent) that you may of course never have heard of.

The service will be different and the lovely red and white uniforms may well be a certain blue/black kind of thing.. But hey, you only need to fly there and back.. So I guess that’s why you get the holiday feelings..

Takes money to fly these days (I totally mean the cost to employ quality crew and the amazing support staff), but so long as Eastern European airlines can come an fill the void .. They will :) .. Just saying of course !

My best to all seeking to find a path through difficult times ..

Ad ..

[t1grm]

Yes I suppose they're hardly going to shunt me onto the BA service that flies LGW - ANU to roughly the same schedule. As long as they are EU certified and I don't end up on some aging cold war relic. :uhoh:

Frankly I'd rather be given an option to cancel but I doubt that will happen unless lock down is still in place in October.

It's a shame as in my limited experience of long-haul I have always found Virgin to be an excellent carrier. I've flown them to LAS, BGI and ANU in the past two years. The aircraft were clean and modern and the cabin crew seemed happy and smiley. I hope they find a way through this for the sake of the people working there. I don't think their owner comes out of this looking very good.

[Jet II]

Looks like Virgin Atlantic are preparing for insolvency according to this news article. The 14 day quarantine announcement is a disaster for UK airlines no doubt I guess we have to face up to company failures, what a bad time to be an airline pilot. Good luck to VS let's hope Branson can come up with some emergency funding.



There was a story yesterday that he was trying to sell half of his Virgin Galatica enterprise to support VS - not sure how much of a market there will be for it though.

[NutLoose]

Yep, article here

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52596273

[Chidken Sangwich]

Expect them to be picked up by the social dumping experts that are Eastern European ACMIs (yes, they're starting to get heavy metal now too)

and how would an ACMI operator fly these without an AOC or route licence in place (that was held by the previous operator)?

I’d say there’s absolutely no chance that loads booked with Virgin Holidays would stand any chance of operating on a non-UK based Charter basis.

The most probable outcome will be a cancellation of the holiday or a re-booking into BA if they are operating the route again by then.

[Burpbot]

and how would an ACMI operator fly these without an AOC or route licence in place (that was held by the previous operator)?

I’d say there’s absolutely no chance that loads booked with Virgin Holidays would stand any chance of operating on a non-UK based Charter basis.

The most probable outcome will be a cancellation of the holiday or a re-booking into BA if they are operating the route again by then.
Are you in drugs?

Even Bad Air sub out to Qatar and others!

[A320baby]

Hang on can we please put the brakes on and stop this! It’s embarrassing and pathetic!

Virgin have not and are not going bust anytime soon! The cash balance is healthy, they are making cuts and hopefully will get funding in the near future!

yes they will make redundancies as every airline.

So all this nonsense about the company using Eastern European, British charter companies is just pure speculation from people sat at home behind a screen tapping away at their keyboards!

it’s embarrassing.

[Landflap]

JET!! : Heard it was 20% of his shareholding.

[Jet II]

You are correct - the original story in the FT said he was going to sell $1Bn of shares but n the event it turned out to be only $500m.

[Airbubba]

Hang on can we please put the brakes on and stop this! It’s embarrassing and pathetic!

Virgin have not and are not going bust anytime soon! The cash balance is healthy, they are making cuts and hopefully will get funding in the near future!

Some perspective in this Bloomberg article:

Richard Branson scrambles to save his flailing Virgin empire
Ben Stupples, Bloomberg Published 9:56 a.m. ET May 12, 2020 | Updated 10:01 a.m. ET May 12, 2020

Covid-19 is exacting a heavy financial toll on one of the world’s most-recognizable entrepreneurs.

Richard Branson already has pledged a Caribbean island and at least $250 million to shore up a leisure and travel empire roiled by the coronavirus pandemic. Now he’s selling a chunk of his stake in Virgin Galactic Holdings Inc., his most valuable listed asset, to raise as much as $500 million.

Over the past half century, Branson built Virgin Group into a sprawling collection of businesses with annual revenues exceeding $20 billion. But his practice of plunging most of the profits back into the ventures has left him scrambling for cash as governments balk at bailing out a billionaire famous for his flamboyant publicity stunts.

https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2020/05/12/PDTN/2fbf6ddc-9ad7-49e1-9d4d-64a0b8605dc7-AP19301461021137.jpg?crop=1024,683,x0,y0&width=540&height=&fit=bounds&auto=webp

Sir Richard Branson, founder of Virgin Galactic, poses for a photo outside the New York Stock Exchange before his company's IPO, Monday, Oct. 28, 2019. (Photo: Richard Drew, AP, File)

“He’s made a career for himself as the ultimate disruptor,” said David Hawkins, co-founder of family business consulting firm Percheron Advisory. “But now he’s faced with a disruptive world and, ironically, it’s not working for him right now. He’s again got to get ahead of the curve.”

Virgin Group spokesman Nick Fox said the Virgin Galactic stake held by investment company Vieco 10 could fall below 50%, depending on the size of the offering. Virgin Group owns 81% of Vieco 10, with the balance held by Aabar Space, an Abu Dhabi investment company. Virgin Galactic Chief Executive Officer George Whitesides declined to comment.

Branson, 69, isn’t alone. The market plunge triggered by the spread of the coronavirus has put pressure on rich families worldwide, with some facing margin calls this year on share-backed debt facilities.

Still, his are particularly high-profile struggles. Over the years, Branson has attempted world records, drove a tank down New York’s Fifth Avenue and leaped from the roof of a Las Vegas casino wearing a black suit and harness to launch one of his airlines.

Retaining Control

Few industries have been hit harder.

Virgin’s Australian airline is in administration, and Virgin Atlantic Airways Ltd. courted potential investors Monday to avoid a similar fate. Just last year, Virgin Atlantic’s future seemed so promising that Branson scrapped the sale of a 30% stake to Air France-KLM in favor of retaining control.

“Because many of our businesses are in industries like travel, leisure and wellness, they are in a massive battle to survive and save jobs,” Branson said in a March blog post.

Virgin Galactic started trading publicly last year after merging with U.S. investment firm Social Capital Hedosophia. Branson will still have a stake worth more than $1 billion in the space-travel company even if he sells the maximum proposed amount disclosed Monday.

His net worth has dropped 12% this year to $5.1 billion, according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index, a ranking of the world’s 500 richest people. Branson’s other assets include a $169 million stake in Virgin Money UK Plc, a Swiss ski chalet in Verbier and an African game preserve.

Living in the British Virgin Islands – where residents pay no income or capital-gains taxes – hasn’t helped Branson in his bid for a bailout from the U.K. government. He said he bought his Caribbean island at age 29 because of his love of the locale and not for tax reasons.

“Happy to hear Branson is putting his hand in his own pocket rather than our tax coffers,” Labour Party lawmaker Margaret Hodge said Monday in a tweet.

[Count von Altibar]

Looks like he's done the right thing at last and got some $$$ to keep Virgin Atlantic afloat for a while longer. The rate this crisis is going it'll likely just push back the inevitable, airlines are bringing virtually no money in and lots going out it's painful to watch it all unfold. Never thought I'd see times like this for civil aviation outside of a world war.

[Andy D]

You are correct - the original story in the FT said he was going to sell $1Bn of shares but n the event it turned out to be only $500m.

He only got $400m of that, which is a fair chunk of money in normal times, not so sure about now!

"Virgin Investments owns 80.7 per cent of Vieco 10, the vehicle selling the stake, with the remainder held by Aabar, the Abu Dhabi investment fund, so a successful placing of the shares could raise more than $400m for Sir Richard’s other businesses"

https://www.ft.com/content/2b6d204e-753b-468a-8786-ca694e1a3b27

[virgin mary]

Virgin Atlantic unveil summer 2021 schedule from Heathrow, Manchester and Glasgow
https://www.virgin.com/news/virgin-atlantic-announces-flying-programme-summer-2021

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8311829/Virgin-Atlantic-announces-recovery-plan-fly-24-destinations-2021.html

https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/18446037.virgin-atlantic-unveil-summer-2021-schedule-heathrow-manchester-glasgow/

[Count von Altibar]

They might be announcing 2021 summer schedule but they're also appointing specialists in going into administration. Maybe a new leaner fitter VS can be resurrected if it does fall and some employees get their jobs back.

https://www.consultancy.uk/news/24541/virgin-atlantic-taps-alvarez-marsal-for-possible-insolvency

[fruitbat]

Hang on can we please put the brakes on and stop this! It’s embarrassing and pathetic!

Virgin have not and are not going bust anytime soon! The cash balance is healthy, they are making cuts and hopefully will get funding in the near future!.

Whilst no doubt you have skin in this... you can’t say that for sure. Going forward no airline is safe,

[rotorwills]

Considering the present outlook for future profitable, at least break even, routes and service one can't expect Virgin to be in positioned to belong that sector to survive the next year. Always hoping that they will survive a hard headed view is that they are very likely to be squeezed by lack of passengers along with high costs which will put them at a very high level of failure even with the possible cash injection from RB. That said it's not certain that the injection will be made. I travel along with family members every year on a route that suits me and is just acceptable to me price wise as it's the only non stop available. Once did the same annual trip with AA, two stops but turned out three due to changes in its schedules. So I have a selfish desire for them survive never mind the miles I have with them. But reality and a view of commercial paths lead me to conclude to me dictates they will fall along with others in the real world of capitalism we all live by.

[zfw]

Virgin Atlantic unveil summer 2021 schedule from Heathrow, Manchester and Glasgow[/h1]
https://www.virgin.com/news/virgin-atlantic-announces-flying-programme-summer-2021



Flights for summer 2021 will be on sale from May 16th, 2020. Visit Virgin Atlantic (http://virginatlantic.com/) to find out more

Err no there not been waiting for a bit of BGI and next summer MCO still only bookable until April 13th.........................something going on?.

[Heathrow09L]

Some may say premature for announcing 2021, but must be a good sign that they will get their loan or may even have had it, hopefully help all employees in the business regardless of which department they work, the last thing anybody needs is to be redundant in this living nightmare .

[WhatTheDeuce]

Good way to get cash through the door to use right now.

[Livesinafield]

Good way to get cash through the door to use right now.

In theory yes, However with Virgin's current cash issues and media attention the credit card company's will be hanging onto most of that for a long time.

[peacheyglobes]

It is also a good news story to counteract some of the negative PR.

[sportzbar]

Flights for summer 2021 will be on sale from May 16th, 2020. Visit Virgin Atlantic (http://virginatlantic.com/) to find out more

Err no there not been waiting for a bit of BGI and next summer MCO still only bookable until April 13th.........................something going on?.

I've also been looking at this and it does say on the website that flights will open for booking 331 days before so around 11 months. I'm waiting for the MAN-LAX flights in May.

However......if you take a trip over to Virgin Holidays and do a dummy booking the flight schedules are starting to appear, albeit from LHR at first. I imagine they are still updating the schedules for Virgin Holidays so I'd suggest giving it a few more days, try a dummy booking on the VH website and hopefully you will get an idea of the schedules. Its what I'm currently doing...

[virgin mary]

You will find a similar issue if trying to book on the BA website. Today you could only book a flight to say Orlando for the 7th May at the latest. This is normal, it’s nearly a year away!

[WHBM]

In theory yes, However with Virgin's current cash issues and media attention the credit card company's will be hanging onto most of that for a long time.It's notable that the banks behind the credit card schemes and their Merchant Card Processers, the financial intermediaries who decide what proportion of card payments are or are not forwarded to the company before the service is provided (up to 100%), in case there is a credit card Chargeback, are the SAME banks who are now making loans to cover cash flow shortfalls, but at significant interest rates and secured, to the same airlines ...

[Count von Altibar]

No flights available to book on the Virgin Atlantic website for summer 2021. Sadly this announcement appeared to be some positive news by management exercise on a particular day which you can't blame them for given that the whole existence of Virgin Atlantic is on a knife edge. The venture capitalists/hedge funds that are lining up as potential investors are absolutely horrid setups like vultures flying overhead dying prey. They really need to get Branson to sell his Virgin Galactic stake asap (maybe he has but I see contradicting reports) and get to this magic 750 million mark to see if the chancellor will help out. The market is worsening with the 14 day quarantine policy and accelerating the prospect of this airline (and others) going bust, what a sad set of circumstances it is. Let's hope they can pull themselves out of this unfolding disaster.

[Level bust]

Virgin Atlantic, like BA, only release their flights on a rolling 11 months. However, if you book a holiday with Virgin Holidays the flight will be included even if it is not available via the airline website. You just won't get an airline reference locator until the flights are on general sale, and this hasn't changed.

[KYT]

The market is worsening with the 14 day quarantine policy and accelerating the prospect of this airline (and others) going bust, what a sad set of circumstances it is.

It is extremely unlikely this 14 day quarantine policy will come to fruition. It is simply a starting point from the Government for PR purposes. If no other country has such draconian measures in place, why would the UK economy and Airlines have to suffer unfairly, compared to rivals?

[LookingForAJob]

Rather sadly, the UK government has shown itself to be quite happy, nay, proud, to go its own way!

[Mungo Man]

Hong Kong has had 14 days quarantine for all arrivals since March.

[blind pew]

Who have sentenced a pilot to prison for breaking the quarantine.

[Fly747]

You go to prison in HK as well.
Can’t come here or even transit unless you are a resident.

[SOPS]

And Australia. And people have gone to prison here.

[SilverFearn]

Unless you're Aircrew. We're exempt.

[Maxfli]

Atlantic seeking support from Deutsche Bank.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/90480-virgin-atlantic-seeks-covid-survival-cash-from-deutsche-bank

Hope it works out for all.

[farmpilot]

South Africa also has a 14 day home quarantine period. If you can't home quarantine then you go to a government facility. We are at stage four, very limited movement or businesses open and still not possible to purchase or move alcohol or purchase tobacco.

[KYT]

My point was not quarantine procedures now or during the lockdown period, in the UK or anywhere else......but in a future unlocked state, where tourism and life will be getting back to normal. A 14 day isolation quarantine is sensible during lockdown, unworkable in a’normal’ aviation reliant tourist industry. So for any country to have such a measure, while everywhere else does not, is never going to happen.

During the lockdown period over the last xyz number of days, there may have been a quarantine periods in HK, SA etc but this was nowhere near a normal, unlocked, get back to work world.

[OgaWill]

Canada has 14 day self quarantine too... it's pretty common outside of EU

[Count von Altibar]

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news/virgin-atlantic-defers-a350s-eyes-investors-preps-for-administration

Looks like they're deferring A350 deliveries. At least the management are finally taking some serious measures to try and keep Virgin Atlantic afloat whilst investment is being sought.

[fruitbat]

At least advisory firms are making some money..

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-virgin-atlantic-lenders-brace-for-restructuring-hit-11993843

[TheAirMission]

I'm hearing the A330s will be transferred to MAN base and the350s/787s will stay at LHR