Virgin Atlantic

[SOPS]

On the 10pm news here in Australia is was reported that Virgin Atlantic will ground 85 percent of its fleet.

[OntimeexceptACARS]

Three A340-600s ferried to Prestwick for storage in the last day or two, plus two out of use at LGW, and B789 G-VNYL was recently still donkless at LHR. There's your first 15 percent right there.

Awful times.

[clivegore]

Now is the time to find out what type of person Branson really is. Treat your staff better Richard

[pineteam]

A friend of mine working for Virgin says they must take minimum 2 months of non paid leave.

[Riskybis]

A friend of mine working for Virgin says they must take minimum 2 months of non paid leave.

8weeks unpaid leave over 6 months and pension reduced to 6% ,
not bad at all !!!
and yet some of the “senior entitled pilots” still complain!! Unbelievable in times like these

[Arkroyal]

8weeks unpaid leave over 6 months and pension reduced to 6% ,
not bad at all !!!
and yet some of the “senior entitled pilots” still complain!! Unbelievable in times like these
As unbelievable that the billionaire boss might ride the storm for his loyal staff with the small change in his pocket.

[Riskybis]

As unbelievable that the billionaire boss might ride the storm for his loyal staff with the small change in his pocket.

that Boss only owns 20% of the business now , the real Boss is Delta that has the majority of 49% , I believe they have probably helped behind the scenes

[beardy]

that Boss only owns 20% of the business now , the real Boss is Delta that has the majority of 49% , I believe they have probably helped behind the scenes
20% of his fortune is still a fortune.

[touch&go]

The KLM/AirFrance deal didn't happen so he still own 51%, having Branson as an owner at the moment is probably a liability as the UK tax payer won't be happy about giving a billionaire tax payer cash to keep one of his companies going, they think he needs to put his hand in his own pocket and stop using tax payers money, it will be a hard sell to the uk general public, the question is when the tide goes out is he naked?

[macdo]

Worth noting that the Delta ceo has announced that he is taking a 100% pay cut. https://www.travelpulse.com/news/airlines/delta-ceo-takes-paycut-amidst-massive-cutbacks.html

[A320baby]

Richard still owns the 51%

[Private jet]

When did Virgin Atlantic Ltd last make a profit exactly? If it were not for the benevolence of others then all the staff would have had a 100% pay cut, 100% time off and 0% pension some time ago?

[Riskybis]

When did Virgin Atlantic Ltd last make a profit exactly? If it were not for the benevolence of others then all the staff would have had a 100% pay cut, 100% time off and 0% pension some time ago?

I think Virgin Atlantic has lots of smoke and mirrors going on with its finance , hasn’t made a profit for years ! A bit like how Monarch was before it got taken over by Greybull

[WHBM]

RB has made some money from a few of his ventures, but never from Virgin Atlantic, which long term seems to have consumed more money that it generated.

Old definition of How do you Become a Millionaire in Airline Ownership. Answer : Start as a Billionaire.

[Count von Altibar]

The measures sound a bit tame to me given 85% of the fleet is going to be on the ground shortly. Maybe they know something about the upcoming government airline rescue package that we don't?

[dobby88]

It's probably not that they know something. I imagine they already have these agreements in place in case of any calamity (natural disasters, civil unrest etc) to rescue british nationals. The gov is eerily quiet about it at the moment, but I imagine there need to be rescue flights at some point as none of these countries will want to keep foreign nationals within their borders for longer than they have to. I'm chatting out of my arse though, I have friends abroad which I hope will be repatriated sooner rather than later.

Even if they do run these flights, they won't be anywhere near enough movements to sustain the business. I don't imagine they need more than 5% of their capacity to organise these flights.

[Maxfli]

Richard still owns the 51%

Virgin Atlantic is owned by the Virgin Group (20%), Air France-KLM (31%) and Delta Air Lines (49%).
The multi jurisdictional aspect of the ownership doesn't make it a prime candidate for a Westminster bail-out.

Worrying times for all staff everywhere.

[procede]

Virgin Atlantic is owned by the Virgin Group (20%), Air France-KLM (31%) and Delta Air Lines (49%).
The multi jurisdictional aspect of the ownership doesn't make it a prime candidate for a Westminster bail-out.

Worrying times for all staff everywhere.

The 31% AF-KLM was announced, but fell through. https://www.airfranceklm.com/en/air-france-klm-delta-and-virgin-atlantic-launch-worlds-leading-partnership

[lomapaseo]

Virgin Atlantic is owned by the Virgin Group (20%), Air France-KLM (31%) and Delta Air Lines (49%).
The multi jurisdictional aspect of the ownership doesn't make it a prime candidate for a Westminster bail-out.

Worrying times for all staff everywhere.

Well with an influx of cash from the US to help Delta weather the storm, then Delta can emerge strong enough to bail out Virgin later for pennies on the pound. I aint predicting that will happen but all options should be considered.

So what do the UK citizens want, pay me now or a fire sale later? For me I would rather fly on Virgin then BA after this is all over

[ambidextrous]

Well with an influx of cash from the US to help Delta weather the storm, then Delta can emerge strong enough to bail out Virgin later for pennies on the pound. I aint predicting that will happen but all options should be considered.

So what do the UK citizens want, pay me now or a fire sale later? For me I would rather fly on Virgin then BA after this is all over
Don't forget that Richard made his first millian? by not paying tax on his record sales. Once you've made your first millian, your up and running.

P.S.: Meany moons ago, Peter Sellers stared in "I'm All Right Jack"! As relevent now as it was then.

[crewmeal]

Branson is a disgrace. Instead of taking cash out he should be reinvesting it in the airline to keep it going instead of going cap in hand to the govt for a handout. After all he can't take it with him!!

[rog747]

To be fair SRB did step in twice to save the airline -
In the 90's he sold Virgin Records to prop up Virgin Atlantic and after 9/11 he put in hundreds of £millions of his own money to save the Company that was 2 days away from collapse.
We'll just have to see if/what he does now personally.
Branson had deep pockets twice in the past to save the airline which he has always called ''his baby''

It was the CEO of the Virgin Group that owns 51% of VS and the VS MD that has approached HM Govt. not actually SRB currently.

We (The aviation world) has never seen such unprecedented times - I can see the World and all the economies having to press the reset button on all business, debt is wiped off, State aid is given (which has been done so far to initial responses in the UK) and then we all start again.

[beardy]

Sir Richard Branson has insisted he did not leave Britain for tax reasons, saying he was living on his holiday island of Necker in the British Virgin Islands (BVI) because he loves the place.


So he is non resident and not a British tax payer, but wants the British tax payer to help his 'baby'.

[Banana4321]

As a non-public company, and therefore its demise won't impact pension funds etc. I'm not expecting the UK govt to assist. Trump might through a bail out of Delta....

[neville_nobody]

Branson might be have a few problem coming his way, as his cruise line has also been dry docked due corona. Interesting to see what kind of cash burn rate a brand new cruise line could sustain along with the airline. Probably 2 of the hardest hit sectors.

[wisecaptain]

Govt bailout ??? yes or no
Looks like Virgin have a lot of opposition to receiving any assistance. Willie Walsh has stated he is against it , Labour shadow transport secretary stated in HofC that Branson should spend his own cash ans Joe public is against a company owned 49% by Delta and 51% owned by a multi billionaire receiving any tax payers money.
After 9/11 approx 180 f/o's were cast adrift and 80 Captains offered those f/o positions or unpaid leave etc. They retired the classic 747 back then and grounded the A340's.
Looks like this downturn could be longer lasting and more damaging.
Govt didnt assist before ,cant see them doing so this time either and Boris wont want to be seen doing so by Tax payers.
Get ready for redundancies.
Which fleet will they ground this time ?

[Phantom4]

Branson might be have a few problem coming his way, as his cruise line has also been dry docked due corona. Interesting to see what kind of cash burn rate a brand new cruise line could sustain along with the airline. Probably 2 of the hardest hit sectors.
Agreed plus Delta bailing out.

[virgin mary]

Does this mean that any company with a billionaire owning just a part of it should be excluded from receiving any government help??

Who is the biggest shareholder of British Airways/(IAG)? Hmmm, Qatar Airways owns 21% doesn’t it?

Who is the largest shareholder of EasyJet? Hmm Stelios Haji-loannou with 34%

Who is the largest shareholder of the TUI group Alexey Mordashov with 25%

[beardy]

“Capitalism – which in its purest form is entrepreneurism even among the poorest of the poor – does work; but those who make money from it should put back into society, not just sit on it as if they are hatching eggs.”

Words are cheap, well his are, in our local charity bookshop.

[marchino61]

Does this mean that any company with a billionaire owning just a part of it should be excluded from receiving any government help??

Who is the biggest shareholder of British Airways/(IAG)? Hmmm, Qatar Airways owns 21% doesn’t it?

Who is the largest shareholder of EasyJet? Hmm Stelios Haji-loannou with 34%

Who is the largest shareholder of the TUI group Alexey Mordashov with 25%

None of them should get anything more than loans. Maybe low interest loans, but that's it. If they fail, someone else will buy the assets and continue flying. The planes, pilots and cabin crew won't disappear.

This is not like the banking crisis. Pulling the plug on airlines won't destroy the entire economy (if it isn't already destroyed by the virus).

[virgin mary]

Perhaps, any state aid should be in return for a stake in these companies. (As with the £460 billion bailout for the Banks in 2008).

[Astir 511]

None of them should get anything more than loans. Maybe low interest loans, but that's it. If they fail, someone else will buy the assets and continue flying. The planes, pilots and cabin crew won't disappear.

This is not like the banking crisis. Pulling the plug on airlines won't destroy the entire economy (if it isn't already destroyed by the virus).

People are forgetting that the Airlines are owned primarily by investment funds, using our money from Pensions. People demanding that all the troubled Airlines be allowed to fail are impacting their own pension funds. Although -30% down, they will rebound in time, if you let the airlines fail, then all investment returns are lost. Everyone loses....Investors, Pension Fund Holder, Employees, Suppliers, Suppliers Employees.....and so on. I doubt those calling for the axe to fall would not be so gung-ho if it were there jobs at risk.

[qwertyuiop]

It’s a very tricky decision for somebody to take. I hate to think how much money a grounded airline like Virgin/BA consumes every day. I don’t think it’s feasible for the U.K. tax payer to bail out VS/BA/U2 etc as the numbers are too big. Additionally all are really multinational airlines.

[cashash]

People are forgetting that the Airlines are owned primarily by investment funds, using our money from Pensions. People demanding that all the troubled Airlines be allowed to fail are impacting their own pension funds. Although -30% down, they will rebound in time, if you let the airlines fail, then all investment returns are lost. Everyone loses....Investors, Pension Fund Holder, Employees, Suppliers, Suppliers Employees.....and so on. I doubt those calling for the axe to fall would not be so gung-ho if it were there jobs at risk.

You can make that argument for any major listed company. If nothing was allowed to fail then the Government would run out of money pretty soon. If Virgin goes out of business then when the upturn arrives some other airline will fill that void - just as they did when Lakers went bust or Dan-air.

[Gove N.T.]

I’m surprised at the intimate knowledge some have of how much ready cash SRB has in his wallet. Perhaps he, like many of us, has taken a hefty hit from the collapse of the stock market. His appeal could be likened to vegemite, hate it/like it.
The thought of VS going to the wall will be music to BA’s ears and a nightmare for British travellers having no British competitor for long haul.

[rotorwills]

British government can only financially support with the aid of investors. Basic economics.

Cannot think the music BA is hearing is anything other than a slow waltz. They are more interested in their future never mind a demise of VS.

All airlines face a very difficult time as our population is facing this virus.

[MCDU2]

Follow the NZ government lead, loan with interest to Air NZ, various tranches available and mechanisms in place to ensure the money is repaid and if not then it is convertible into equity ie: Government increases existing stake. Also dividend payments are prohibited until debt is repaid.

[ImPlaneCrazy]

Branson might be have a few problem coming his way, as his cruise line has also been dry docked due corona. Interesting to see what kind of cash burn rate a brand new cruise line could sustain along with the airline. Probably 2 of the hardest hit sectors.

Don't be surprised if you never see that ship sail - in Virgin colours at least... :E it's sale value of around $850m must be quite appealing right now to RB, although the problem will be finding someone to buy it.

[Livesinafield]

If the current mess of a customer service experience they have created from the current situation is anything to go by, they won't be around for a great deal longer

[Lionel Lion]

You know when you read a lot of these posts it’s almost as if you want people to lose their jobs. Shame on all of you.

[wisecaptain]

I think Tax paying public are fed up with getting screwed over by big business.
Every 10 yrs or so they foot the bill to save these game players who irresponsibly over inflate values of companies, banks , markets etc etc and then suffer subsequent decades of austerity , reduced public service and transport standards , curtailed health benefits , reduced infrastructure etc etc . Meanwhile the top 1% get richer ....
This time I hope businesses go bust , downsizing occurs in banking sectors and there needs to be meaningful implementation of fiscal controls to limit ridiculous over valuation of equity markets.
The rich are living well beyond OUR abilities ..... their greed needs to be put in check .... No more paying for this system , it doesnt work for the people .!!!

[Arkroyal]

I think Tax paying public are fed up with getting screwed over by big business.
Every 10 yrs or so they foot the bill to save these game players who irresponsibly over inflate values of companies, banks , markets etc etc and then suffer subsequent decades of austerity , reduced public service and transport standards , curtailed health benefits , reduced infrastructure etc etc . Meanwhile the top 1% get richer ....
This time I hope businesses go bust , downsizing occurs in banking sectors and there needs to be meaningful implementation of fiscal controls to limit ridiculous over valuation of equity markets.
The rich are living well beyond OUR abilities ..... their greed needs to be put in check .... No more paying for this system , it doesnt work for the people .!!!

Well put. 👍🏽

[lomapaseo]

I think Tax paying public are fed up with getting screwed over by big business.
Every 10 yrs or so they foot the bill to save these game players who irresponsibly over inflate values of companies, banks , markets etc etc and then suffer subsequent decades of austerity , reduced public service and transport standards , curtailed health benefits , reduced infrastructure etc etc . Meanwhile the top 1% get richer ....
This time I hope businesses go bust , downsizing occurs in banking sectors and there needs to be meaningful implementation of fiscal controls to limit ridiculous over valuation of equity markets.
The rich are living well beyond OUR abilities ..... their greed needs to be put in check .... No more paying for this system , it doesnt work for the people .!!!

Well what does this political statement have to do with the subject thread title? It sounds like a broad paint brush on any wall in its way

[thegypsy]

When I was in Sq I remember the bearded one coming over to flog 49% despite never really making a profit and getting around £620 million for it.Was the worst investment ever for Sq. They made a huge loss when they eventually flogged it I seem to remember.

[Count von Altibar]

The bearded one is not to be trusted, look at how he's just let Flybe slide. I say no state aid to his companies until he's coughed up some of his own wealth and showed willing. His operations have always been a smoke and mirrors charade.

[ambidextrous]

Menny moons ago, Peter Sellers stared in "I'm All Right Jack", as relevent now as it was then!

Over the Last five years, Richard (Rupert) Branson has asked the Government for a bailout of £7.5 Billion to help deal with effects of coronavirus. This is from a man who is not resident in the UK, owns his own Ireland in the Caribean, is worth a reputed £4.5 Billion, doesn't pay any tax and is not known as helping the NHS or State schools.
But he does enjoy expensive "toys" we hear.
Richard (Rupert) Branson has further asked the Goverment for a bailout of £2 Billion when Virgin Rail walked away from the East Cost Mainline contract, five years early.
It goes on! Rupert demanded £2.2 million from the NHS for not being given an NHS contract to Virgin Care.
Rupert paid £2.2 million towards a consortium in January to buy Flybe which collapsed in March!

[slowjet]

But, if these entrepreneurs were not around, who would employ us pilots ?

[BBK]

You know when you read a lot of these posts it’s almost as if you want people to lose their jobs. Shame on all of you.

Well said Lionel. This forum is, allegedly, for professional pilots and yet to see the number of nasty and vitriolic comments about a company that provides employment for the best part of 1000 pilots is deplorable. Why these detractors want to see Virgin fail is indicative of their twisted logic that they think it will hurt a successful businessman that they have issues with.

In reality it will hurt the rank and file employees. Not just the pilots but the cabin crew, check in staff, engineers, support staff and the list goes on. It will impact the all the other airport staff that support the operation from ATC to caterers and cleaners. It’s gut wrenching to see any company fail and especially when good friends lost their jobs such as at Monarch.

However, there is a huge difference between the companies that failed before, as sad as that was, and the likes of Virgin, BA, easyJet etc. These are, or were, successful companies providing jobs to the aviation industry. This crisis is not like anything seen before and so it is quite right that they lobby the government for support. I have no idea how this would work but I imagine it might be a loan or equity stake perhaps. For those of you that have an urgent need to keep trolling perhaps find another website to spew your poison onto. Just a thought.

[vlieger]

What is needed is a worldwide bailout of the airline industry. But not one where the losses are nationalised and the profits are privatised. The airline companies must be taken out of the hands of billionaires such as Branson. This is the only way to preserve any semblance of air infrastructure in countries all over the world.

[rotorwings]

What a load of rubbish people write on here… it’s incredibly sad to see people wanting to see an iconic British airline fail because they heard or made up incorrect facts about SRB and Virgin, I’m guessing many of you are Daily Mail readers or believe D. Trump too much.

Virgin Atlantic has been providing innovate idea’s in the whole global airline industry since the start of VAA, from being the first to introduce In-Flight Entertainment to the first flat beds onboard. They are the David of the David vs Goliath story with BA. Without VAA always snapping at BA’s heels, BA would be an awful airline, they need that healthy competition to keep innovation and keep pushing to provide fantastic service for their customers.

Virgin Atlantic only has about 45 aircraft compared to BA’s 280 ish.. and they hardly make any profit, so for people to say that SRB is a tax con are deluded. If you were in his position, wouldn’t you move to the BVI’s if you constantly had nasty people and press constantly putting you down. They aren’t asking for a bail out but rather a loan, so again its not a burden on tax payers.



Have you thought about all the corporation tax his companies pay and that he has created jobs for over 71,000 people globally? It’s more than anyone on this forum can say. It’s such a cut throat industry and to make any profit is bloody hard especially when you're up against BA who has had everything handed to them on a plate by the government. I’m not against BA but you need people like SRB to break the mould and think outside the box and keep big corporations like BA in check and not runaway with the market share.

Be a positive person and strive for success in British industries, not failure. Check your facts before you write rubbish please.

[Gove N.T.]

I worked with VS for many years. Twice the airline was nearly crushed by circumstances. First, the infamous British Airways “sabotage” and then 9/11 lockdown. There were several other times when times were hard and only today it is reported SRB has added $250m. It is a drop in the aviation ocean of course with the AA ceo saying it is the worst crisis for aviation ever and most others grounding their aircraft in staggering numbers.
Like vegemite which one either likes or hates, SRB is seen in that light.
Those who have no idea of the contents of his wallet make fatuous comments which are to be expected of course. Against all the odds stacked against him and those who work for him the airline has carved a place and in its own way effectively competes against a monopolistic leviathan in some areas of the aviation market.

[esscee]

If any airline wants Government aid/help then that airline should not pay any dividends out for say 2 years from 1 Jan this year, and also the Government should take some shares in that airline.

[Livesinafield]

Personally, I hope the UK taxpayer doesn't send a penny to any of the UK airlines after the fuss most of them made about Flybe getting a mere 100M in relief, what goes around comes around ;)

[A320baby]

So you’d rather 8000+ people lose their jobs?! Nice one 🤬

[Livesinafield]

No, id rather no one lost their jobs, but as was stated many times by many Airline CEO's and the public, "taxpayers money shouldn't be used to bail out billionaires"... Of course now its ok to use it because the big boys are hemorrhaging cash and they want protections. You cant have your cake and eat it mate

Easy and BA have deep pockets, they need to use that first

So yes I stand by what I said and hope they don't get a penny

[waco]

After all this people will be concerned with food and shelter.....not flying on aeroplanes.....the economic fall out is going to be planet changing.

[SOPS]

80000 people in Australia lost their jobs today at 12.00 pm. All bars, restaurants, clubs, gyms, cinemas .. you name it were ordered to shut. Thousands lined up to claim welfare payments.

When we come out the other side of this, things are going to be very different.

[Paul852]

Indeed - it is mind-boggling to realise how many millions of people will be driven into abject poverty in the name of extending the lives of a few very old and/or chronically ill people by a few months.

Surely at some point people will wake up to what's going on and say "Enough!"?

[flocci_non_faccio]

Surely at some point people will wake up to what's going on and say "Enough!"?

Politically it's very difficult for the government to say "Sorry, nothing we can do. Good luck if you catch it."

Quite understandably, nobody wants to make that call, so we're in a situation where essentially the government is trying to buy time while hoping for a miracle (i.e. much quicker than expected progress towards a vaccine and/or a drug therapy that's proven to be effective.) People will only tolerate lockdown measures for a finite (and short) period of time.

[Astir 511]

What a load of rubbish people write on here… it’s incredibly sad to see people wanting to see an iconic British airline fail because they heard or made up incorrect facts about SRB and Virgin, I’m guessing many of you are Daily Mail readers or believe D. Trump too much.

Virgin Atlantic has been providing innovate idea’s in the whole global airline industry since the start of VAA, from being the first to introduce In-Flight Entertainment to the first flat beds onboard. They are the David of the David vs Goliath story with BA. Without VAA always snapping at BA’s heels, BA would be an awful airline, they need that healthy competition to keep innovation and keep pushing to provide fantastic service for their customers.

Virgin Atlantic only has about 45 aircraft compared to BA’s 280 ish.. and they hardly make any profit, so for people to say that SRB is a tax con are deluded. If you were in his position, wouldn’t you move to the BVI’s if you constantly had nasty people and press constantly putting you down. They aren’t asking for a bail out but rather a loan, so again its not a burden on tax payers.



Have you thought about all the corporation tax his companies pay and that he has created jobs for over 71,000 people globally? It’s more than anyone on this forum can say. It’s such a cut throat industry and to make any profit is bloody hard especially when you're up against BA who has had everything handed to them on a plate by the government. I’m not against BA but you need people like SRB to break the mould and think outside the box and keep big corporations like BA in check and not runaway with the market share.

Be a positive person and strive for success in British industries, not failure. Check your facts before you write rubbish please.

Well said, I am getting tired of people offering endless criticisms of what SRB should pr shouldn't do. Healthy competition is good for all. Remember the days before the LCC's and High end carriers came on the scene. We paid flag carrier prices for LCC services. Do we really want to return to those days???

[A320LGW]

Virgin Atlantic has been providing innovate idea’s in the whole global airline industry since the start of VAA, from being the first to introduce In-Flight Entertainment to the first flat beds onboard. They are the David of the David vs Goliath story with BA. Without VAA always snapping at BA’s heels, BA would be an awful airline, they need that healthy competition to keep innovation and keep pushing to provide fantastic service for their customers.

.

Not quite ...

https://www.wikizero.com/en/Pakistan_International_Airlines_(PIA)#cite_note-93

"Pakistan International Airlines was the first international airline to introduce entertainment system showing a regularly scheduled film on board in the year 1962"

[cashash]

Virgin Atlantic only has about 45 aircraft compared to BA’s 280 ish.. and they hardly make any profit, so for people to say that SRB is a tax con are deluded. If you were in his position, wouldn’t you move to the BVI’s if you constantly had nasty people and press constantly putting you down. They aren’t asking for a bail out but rather a loan, so again its not a burden on tax payers.





What is preventing then getting finance from the markets is all they want is a loan?. They could get a commercial loan from the banks, issue bonds or even issue more shares.

[Andy D]

What a load of rubbish people write on here… it’s incredibly sad to see people wanting to see an iconic British airline fail because they heard or made up incorrect facts about SRB and Virgin, I’m guessing many of you are Daily Mail readers or believe D. Trump too much.

Virgin Atlantic has been providing innovate idea’s in the whole global airline industry since the start of VAA, from being the first to introduce In-Flight Entertainment to the first flat beds onboard. They are the David of the David vs Goliath story with BA. Without VAA always snapping at BA’s heels, BA would be an awful airline, they need that healthy competition to keep innovation and keep pushing to provide fantastic service for their customers.

Virgin Atlantic only has about 45 aircraft compared to BA’s 280 ish.. and they hardly make any profit, so for people to say that SRB is a tax con are deluded. If you were in his position, wouldn’t you move to the BVI’s if you constantly had nasty people and press constantly putting you down. They aren’t asking for a bail out but rather a loan, so again its not a burden on tax payers.

Have you thought about all the corporation tax his companies pay and that he has created jobs for over 71,000 people globally? It’s more than anyone on this forum can say. It’s such a cut throat industry and to make any profit is bloody hard especially when you're up against BA who has had everything handed to them on a plate by the government. I’m not against BA but you need people like SRB to break the mould and think outside the box and keep big corporations like BA in check and not runaway with the market share.

Be a positive person and strive for success in British industries, not failure. Check your facts before you write rubbish please.

AFAIK BA and AF were first to introduce lie flat beds in F somewhere around 95/96, with Virgin introducing them in J in 1999

As for tax fraud, he started out by claiming to export records, getting the paperwork stamped at Dover, and then driving them back to London to be sold avoiding the 33% levy that should have added to them.

Yeh Branson done some interesting stuff but who do billionaires really benefit?

[thegypsy]

Cannot imagine any pension fund would have considered in investing in Virgin Atlantic as they have never made any real profit hence Corporation Tax would have been minimal.

Why did he try so hard to sell 49% of his company to the likes of SQ?

The trouble with the bearded one and his empire he hides behind offshore places which makes one unable

to verify what exactly goes on.

[Paul852]

The trouble with the bearded one and his empire he hides behind offshore places which makes one unable to verify what exactly goes on.Well yes, but that is true of any sizeable company with a half decent tax lawyer!

[Livesinafield]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52066640

Interesting

[Count von Altibar]

Apparently they've asked for a bailout today according to Reuters news agency and some lady reporter on the BBC news the other night saying they've made no money in the last 4 years and need government cash to survive. Such tough times for the airlines I think there's going to be some more big casualties before this crisis is over.

[Maxfli]

Is it likely that the Treasury would support an airline that is 49% owned by Delta, without pound for pound investment support from Delta as well?

[esscee]

As Delta will probably get some form of assistance from Federal funds in the US, VS will likely argue that UK gov should bail them out too. Let the bearded one dip into his pockets deeper than the alleged afore mentioned £215m and also see if any banks might then lend some first. If the banks do not then unlucky.

[Maxfli]

That argument would only hold if Delta provide additional investment to VA.
If Delta needs funding from US Treasury, it is unlikely they will additionally support VA, which would make it difficult for Sunak to be the sole source of support funding / guarantees.Aviation bosses have been lobbying the government for a targeted aid package to stop firms going under as a result of the slump in demand.

But in a letter on Tuesday Rishi Sunak said the government would only step in as "a last resort".

Mr Sunak instead urged airlines to try and raise money from shareholders.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52027342


Hope the best for all.

[Maxfli]

Let's hope something positive comes out of this proposal to Rothschild.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-virgin-atlantic/virgin-atlantic-asks-uk-government-for-financial-help-source-idUSKBN21H1CW

[xray one]

Ok esscee I'll bite...If the banks do not then unlucky.

So 10,000 jobs down the drain...whilst BA becomes a monopoly and prices get higher. Guess you're happy if you work for BA or are you just a un-informed troll...

[Gove N.T.]

Ok esscee I'll bite...

So 10,000 jobs down the drain...whilst BA becomes a monopoly and prices get higher. Guess you're happy if you work for BA or are you just a un-informed troll...

Quite
I doubt there are many institutions with funds who would invest in any airline at the moment.
VS would like to expand to South America but can’t because of the lack of slots at LHR. One of the main reasons why BA (of dirty tricks infamy) doesn't want the 3rd runway so as to protect their British long haul monopoly
It has a modern fleet although badly affected by the RR Trent issues., introduced Premium Economy (w cl). Was one of the leaders of the team that introduced the industry standard for computerised Baggage Reconciliation following Lockerbie,
SRB had the guts to try to compete against all the advice against a monolithic monster in BA.
He employed good people Who built the airline and achieved more than many expected.
Don’t write it off. The U.K. government is keen not to see good companies fail because of C19

[radiosutch]

Ok esscee I'll bite...

So 10,000 jobs down the drain...whilst BA becomes a monopoly and prices get higher. Guess you're happy if you work for BA or are you just a un-informed troll...

It would look better if the Beardy One sold his tax free island and ploughed that in to Virgin. Then he could announce that henceforth he would move back to the UK permanently and become a UK taxpayer.

[Riskybis]

It would look better if the Beardy One sold his tax free island and ploughed that in to Virgin. Then he could announce that henceforth he would move back to the UK permanently and become a UK taxpayer.

who will buy an island in the current world state

[davidjpowell]

Beardy already seems to have put a lot of cash in, which not many other cheif exec / shareholders seem to be doing. In fact the Orangy chief exec appears to have gone the otherway.

I'm not sure why he personally would feel like putting his own neck on the chopping board. If it survives his return is diminished, uncertain and recovery prolonged. If it goes then his pocket is either safe or emptied depending on what he does.

Harsh, but I can see why he does not want to put more money in - especially when the government flipped on Connect...

[lomapaseo]

who will buy an island in the current world state

Real estate is a good buy, bridges are a poor buy

and airlines are sell now

[Blink182]

Beardy and his group loosing more dosh with Oneweb going to the wall ?

[there she blows]

Beardy and his group loosing more dosh with Oneweb going to the wall ?
I now understand why hr send you guys, Thankyou for your interest but unfortunately on this occasion......
PFO!

[xray one]

Blink182
Beardy and his group loosing more dosh with Oneweb going to the wall ?

Chapter 11, totally different...do your homework

[marchino61]

Blink182


Chapter 11, totally different...do your homework

It's still quite likely to wipe out the existing shareholders.

[wisecaptain]

Realistically , theres only one solution for VS = downsize
They will have to bin the most expensive to operate/finance airframes and reduce the scale of their operation frequencies,airframes,crews etc
Govt cant take a stake , its not supported by taxpayers who cant see a reason to support airlines as special cases.
Sad to say VS will have to furlough and or redundancies imho .... definite sense of de ja vu

[Count von Altibar]

I agree with wisecaptain's comments, VS are going to have to do some drastic cost reductions fast through redundancies/fleet/routes to get through this intact, they just don't have the cash reserves the likes of BA have built up over the last few years. Also I really can't see the UK government bailing them out, they'll need to look to Delta and SRB for more funds to survive this decimating of the aviation business we're currently experiencing.

[qwertyuiop]

Realistically , theres only one solution for VS = downsize
They will have to bin the most expensive to operate/finance airframes and reduce the scale of their operation frequencies,airframes,crews etc
Govt cant take a stake , its not supported by taxpayers who cant see a reason to support airlines as special cases.
Sad to say VS will have to furlough and or redundancies imho .... definite sense of de ja vu

I think you are being very optimistic!

[xray one]

What a number of you are missing is the value of Virgin with the hard cash they have paid to HMRC, for many year, even when losing money. The company has had a major restructure over the last few years culminating in a modern, fuel efficient fleet - this hasn't been helped by the ongoing problems with RR engines for the B789.

So what are the numbers? Between £350-400 million per year to HMRC in various taxes. Money for the NHS and many other services. Without the downfall Virgin would soon have been profitable and increasing destinations and revenue, and yes more money to HMRC.

Letters to the government showing strong support of Virgin this week from Airbus, RR and Heathrow says a great deal as to their worth to the whole aviation community. Time will tell how much the government want a healthy, competitive airline industry.

[Holer Moler]

Ask the great British public what they think of Virgin Atlantic Airways ? Today! Major share holder sitting on his Tax free island

If they are to survive - Its my guess that they will dump the 744's and A330's and just become a small but efficient 789 and 340-1000 operator and 500 + Pilots will be put to rest.

[DaveReidUK]

just become a small but efficient 789 and 340-1000 operator

Toulouse kept that one quiet ...

[bringbackthe80s]

I sincerely hope that is not the case.
One thing begs the question though, for the British pilots on a uk easa licence, does that mean they can only apply for g registered jobs in the uk nowadays?

[procede]

Ask the great British public what they think of Virgin Atlantic Airways ? Today! Major share holder sitting on his Tax free island

If they are to survive - Its my guess that they will dump the 744's and A330's and just become a small but efficient 789 and 340-1000 operator and 500 + Pilots will be put to rest.

I guess they hung extra engines from the wing as a tribute to their old mantra.

The A330's are quite efficient for shorter routes (UK - US east coast) and have a common type rating with the A350, so there would not be a very good reason from that side for getting rid of them.

[LTNman]

Losses for the last 3 years and only made a profit 3 times in the last 9 years. So how far back does VS want that bailout to cover?

[wisecaptain]

UK tax payers will want to see Virgin trying to raise cash , as instructed by Rishi Sunak the other day.
He wants Airlines to follow the Cruise ship companies example eg Carnival last Tuesday 31st March said that it is issuing $1.25 billion of stock while also taking on nearly $5 billion of additional debt. Also its turning to all corners of the capital markets to raise at least $6 billion of cash tapping Bond Mkt investors.
So why airlines think they can turn to the exchequer and the tax payers cheque book is a mystery ???
.... Sunak knows the mkts having been an investment fund manager etc etc with the likes of G.Sachs ..... he knows they will if they want to survive, theres plenty of avenues for them to go down in efforts to raise money !!!
Why they see themselves as a special case is they think they have Leverage with the Govt due to the numbers of employees and related businesses dependancy and their supply chains etc ..... Time to wake up Airlines , raise your own cash . The US Govt are taking a stake in their airlines for mainly one reason .... Boeing .
Uk doesnt have that desire with airbus and RR.

[Sick]

.theres plenty of avenues for them to go down in efforts to raise money !!! Really? It couldn't be a worse time to try and raise money - Not being publicly listed, Virgin can't do a rights issue, I very much doubt private equity or banks would be interested (apart from maybe an asset strip fire sale), tricky Dicky is rich, but not rich enough to keep it afloat single handed and other airlines have their own issues staying afloat ... And government help - well easyJet cooked the goose for all UK airlines by paying out a dividend while pleading for cash, which went down like a lead balloon with exchequer - even highly profitable and solvent banks which have never asked the government for a penny (eg HSBC, Barclays) cancelled their divi payouts due this week.

[dastocks]

I would have thought that if Virgin are deemed to be a strategic asset the way for HMG to support it would be via a nationalisation. The business would be acquired from the receivers in much the same way Rolls Royce was nationalised back in 1971, and could then be privatised at a later date so the taxpayer receives a return on their investment.

[touch&go]

So how much money does Virgin need that is an impossible question to answer, revenue has gone, summer trade won't happen and winter in normal times is lean so they will need cash to survive for one full year without much business, the question to ask is went do you think it will turn around and you start to see the business bounce back?, the difficulty for the government is if they don't give enough money to support the company then its waisted money, when thing turn BA will flood the market and grab what little business is around, RB and the exchequer need figure out an amount, impossible task as the virus will set the timeline, good luck for the future.

[maxred]

I’d rather bailouts go to urgently funding the health services in this country. Not this continued loss making entity.

Are you bonkers. Slipped in yesterday £13.5 BILLION of NHS England Trusts debt written off by the Government. That is our taxes if I can remind you.

The 2020 NHS England budget is in excess of £138 BILLION. If I believe the BEEB it is still a total shambles and in meltdown. Where is the money going??

[wisecaptain]

Desperate times = desperate measures ..... there is always someone willing to buy ... its always a matter of price .
Branson could easily get investors on board , not the best time after a 30% drop in the mkts but it will get a lot worse over the coming year so Now is a relatively good time for VS to go to find the money it needs.
If the UK tax payer stumps up and takes a share or in fact private investors, then they will want proper accountability from the company and its management.
You think Branson wants that level of transparency ?? In which case he will have to put his Billions on the line .... just for his share in an airline .... I wonder ???
Probably not , but it could be the difference between survival or shrinking to a size that cannot operate successfully and ultimately its demise.

[wisecaptain]

NHS ....Thats a public service ...... not a private company . Big difference and the NHS is beloved to the UK , its saving peoples lives right now so has unending public support and is a Political hot potato at the forefront of Boris political promise list ......

[jthg]

Don't be surprised if you never see that ship sail - in Virgin colours at least... :E it's sale value of around $850m must be quite appealing right now to RB, although the problem will be finding someone to buy it.

Dont underestimate the significance of that last bit. The ship isn’t worth much more to anyone else than it is to RB for the same reason...

[Chippybus]

RB has made some money from a few of his ventures, but never from Virgin Atlantic, which long term seems to have consumed more money that it generated.

Old definition of How do you Become a Millionaire in Airline Ownership. Answer : Start as a Billionaire.
Strange how the Company made no money on a 2.5 billion turnover, Oh they spent 582 million of that on marketing! Perhaps that where it disappeared too, NECKER

[Riskybis]

Of course VA makes cash ! It just gets absorbed into the group and probably used as some form of tax avoidance .
VA will get bailed out and things will continue as normal .

[fruitbat]

Of course VA makes cash ! It just gets absorbed into the group and probably used as some form of tax avoidance .
VA will get bailed out and things will continue as normal .

You reckon?! No airline will continue “as normal”. Look back at how VS has dealt with downturns in the past, this is far more serious..

[Riskybis]

You reckon?! No airline will continue “as normal”. Look back at how VS has dealt with downturns in the past, this is far more serious..

People will still be desperate to travel when the restrictions have been lifted ,
I reckon the government will give more than 500mil to VS , I wouldn’t be surprised if Delta gave some cash also (I know they are not meant to , but these are extraordinary times and they own 49% )
I know people want to see the collapse of virgin , yes it will probably shrink but that will be getting rid of the 747 &340s which they have basically done .
but I think this ship will keep sailing , sometimes it’s good to be a small fish in a big pond , to be able to quickly adapt is vital

[Holer Moler]

At least they are trying to make an effort:

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-virgin-flies-in-millions-of-pieces-of-medical-equipment-from-china-11968311

[wisecaptain]

Whats this PR opportunity got to do with VS and their survival ??
Branson needs to find private equity and dilute his ownership % , or he will have to approach the bond market for liquidity .
Carnival Cruise did just that and boy did they have to pay for it . 1 year ago they bought $500 million at 1% , last week they stumped up at 15% !!!!
BUT , they got the liquidity they need to stay afloat , for now.
So Branson .... get to it if you want to survive .... its easy to cut your employees salaries but that isnt enough . You will have to take some significant financial input from your own Billions, after all its your airline along with Delta so as Delta only own a stake and their own survival is top of the list .... its really all your responsibility to step up to the plate ,
if VS doesnt survive its all your fault. You can run but you cant hide .
Until you excercise these methods , Rishi Sunak aint going to stump up tax payers money . He knows how these markets work .

[kcockayne]

[QUOTE=Riskybis;10739290]People will still be desperate to travel when the restrictions have been lifted ,
I reckon the government will give more than 500mil to VS , I wouldn’t be surprised if Delta gave some cash also (I know they are not meant to , but these are extraordinary times and they own 49% )
I know people want to see the collapse of virgin , yes it will probably shrink but that will be getting rid of the 747 &340s which they have basically done .
but I think this ship will keep sailing , sometimes it’s good to be a small fish in a big pond , to be able to quickly adapt is vital[/Q
“Desperate to travel “. Maybe, but get real, where are they going to get the money for travel from, which airlines will still be in existence, who will be operating your holiday accommodation etc. ? There will be other things far more important exercising their minds than travel viz mortgages, jobs, food, housing - simply existing will occupy most peoples’ thoughts! I can’t believe that anyone still thinks that this is a little economic blip which we will recover from in time for everything to get back to normal.It is existential , in some ways , potentially bigger than the 2nd World War. It will take a very long time for things to get back to normal. Virgin etc. will be the least of our worries !

[Riskybis]

[QUOTE=Riskybis;10739290]People will still be desperate to travel when the restrictions have been lifted ,
I reckon the government will give more than 500mil to VS , I wouldn’t be surprised if Delta gave some cash also (I know they are not meant to , but these are extraordinary times and they own 49% )
I know people want to see the collapse of virgin , yes it will probably shrink but that will be getting rid of the 747 &340s which they have basically done .
but I think this ship will keep sailing , sometimes it’s good to be a small fish in a big pond , to be able to quickly adapt is vital[/Q
“Desperate to travel “. Maybe, but get real, where are they going to get the money for travel from, which airlines will still be in existence, who will be operating your holiday accommodation etc. ? There will be other things far more important exercising their minds than travel viz mortgages, jobs, food, housing - simply existing will occupy most peoples’ thoughts! I can’t believe that anyone still thinks that this is a little economic blip which we will recover from in time for everything to get back to normal.It is existential , in some ways , potentially bigger than the 2nd World War. It will take a very long time for things to get back to normal. Virgin etc. will be the least of our worries !

lets just all panic then , that always works out well !

[Plastic787]

People have very short memories and will always spend beyond their means, that much is certain. If that wasn’t the case then credit card companies would have been out of business years ago. It’s nonsense how people talk about the pre Covid 19 times just gone as if in financial terms they were the land of milk and honey. They weren’t. People were just as overstretched then as they will be now. And they still went on holiday. Yes demand will be suppressed for a while. But give it time and people will get bored, forget and they’ll start spending money they don’t have again to mask the tedium of their lives. The more things change the more they stay the same.

[maxred]

Maxred I’ve never believed the BEEB!

I wish it had been the BEEB. Naturally I would been able to instantly bin it.

But no, straight from the horse's mouth, Mr Hancock imself.

It was during one of the fear campaigns at 5.00. Regarding the Government giving VS money not sure that will fly, (please forgive the pun), however, Rolls Royce, BAA, and Airbus will lobby very hard that VS should be given assistance due knock on market effects. It may however be too late.

[A320baby]

Can you explain your “It may however be too late.” Comment? Do you know something we don’t?

[Paul852]

Well VS has just cancelled all their flights to HKG, which was one of the few remaining destinations. (As has BA - last flight in a few hours)

[A320baby]

Where have you seen that? We’ve had no official comms telling us. (Not saying there won’t be)

[kcockayne]

I am not panicking, Riskybis, just treating this situation with the seriousness that it demands. Covid 19 won’t exterminate us all, but it is putting the economy in by far the worst situation that it has ever been in. Recovering from that will not be a picnic. People , even hitherto affluent people, will be far too busy trying to make sense of their lives , & far too impecunious, to resume traveling; & the travel infrastructure will have, to a large degree, disappeared. That may include VIR - & any other airline that you care to mention. If Governments consider that they have greater uses for our money than subsidizing airlines which may , nevertheless, soon cease to exist , then there won’t be any handouts, & a lot of them will go out of business. I do not want this to happen - & I have important personal reasons to hope that it doesn’t - but there may well be things of far greater importance than our cherished airlines taking priority in the queue for funds. I have a travel voucher from UAE , which covers my flights to the Seychelles. I am not overly optimistic that I am going to have the opportunity to use it within the next 18 months, at least. Keep smiling.

[Paul852]

Where have you seen that? We’ve had no official comms telling us. (Not saying there won’t be)
If you mean the flights to HKG, OK, I'll qualify it. All flights beyond the departure on 19 April have been pulled from their website and other booking engines.

Most annoyingly, since my partner had a cheap ticket (through a travel agent) on the 21 April flight which has now been cancelled, and booking a new ticket on one of the earlier flights is almost twice the price.

[SometimeFlyer]

I'd miss them. As a humble SLF...brilliant airline to fly on. Beat BA hands down. I wouldn't want to see a BA monopoly.

[wisecaptain]

I see Branson is moving his billions Bloomberg Branson Shifts $1.1 Billion Galactic Holding Between Tax Havens

[DonTrumpet2020]

They are his to move, I don’t see the issue. Does he owe you money or something?

[Mr Good Cat]

No, but he wants the UK taxpayer to foot his airline's bill. So he may very shortly owe us all money. Hence some people may be very pi**ed off that he's avoiding using his own money that he hides in tax havens.

[zero/zero]

No, but he wants the UK taxpayer to foot his airline's bill. So he may very shortly owe us all money. Hence some people may be very pi**ed off that he's avoiding using his own money that he hides in tax havens.

It's not 'his airline'! He has a minority stake in it these days and is dragged out for PR stunts on new routes.

IAGs biggest shareholder is Qatar Airways, hardly a well known British taxpayer and Stelios lives in Monaco. Corporate structures are complicated and any government bailout decision will be based on providing value for the taxpayer, protecting jobs and recognising Virgin as a national asset for the growth of the economy. Luckily Katie Hopkins and the Daily Mail readers aren't in charge of that decision

[CEJM]

It's not 'his airline'! He has a minority stake in it these days and is dragged out for PR stunts on new routes.

Branson owns 51% of the shares in Virgin so he is most certainly not a minority shareholder.

[zero/zero]

Branson owns 51% of the shares in Virgin so he is most certainly not a minority shareholder.

No, Virgin Group owns 51% of Virgin Atlantic. RB does not fully own the Group... if he did he'd be worth a lot more than the £4bn quoted in the papers

[CEJM]

Apologies Zero/Zero, you are right.

[BRISTOLRE]

most of the activity of the VS fleet at present is confined what appears to be just cargo only flights to JFK/LAX etc. LAX just got converted to A35X operation which was on the cards anyway, Its mooted they will be actively involved in the next tranche of repatriation charters for the UK GVT.

[Discovery Bay]

Some friends of mine are returning from CPT later this week on VS

[cashash]

No, Virgin Group owns 51% of Virgin Atlantic. RB does not fully own the Group... if he did he'd be worth a lot more than the £4bn quoted in the papers

And the Virgin Group is owned by Virgin Group Holdings Ltd, a private company who are based in a Carribbean tax haven with very opaque ownership. So I dont think anyone can say exactly how much Branson owns of anything.

[Riskybis]

most of the activity of the VS fleet at present is confined what appears to be just cargo only flights to JFK/LAX etc. LAX just got converted to A35X operation which was on the cards anyway, Its mooted they will be actively involved in the next tranche of repatriation charters for the UK GVT.

just been chartered to do flights to DEL,BOM,JNB and CPT for repatriation

[BRISTOLRE]

just been chartered to do flights to DEL,BOM,JNB and CPT for repatriation
That's good news, it keeps people employed and aircraft in the air but its short term relief. I suppose they will use the 789s for these (is G-VROS still at LHR?)

[GASH !]

Just a minor correction chaps. Virgin Atlantic is not owned by Virgin Group. The CEO of Virgin Group Ltd is Peter Norris. He was in charge of the Southeast Asia division at Barings Bank when Nick Leeson took them down for over £800m.

Virgin Atlantic is owned 51% by Virgin Investments Ltd and 49% by Delta Airlines Inc. Richard Branson is listed as a Person of Significant Control, which means no person or company has recently purchased over 25% of the ordinary shares.


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/711x533/526074a6_d1fb_4d64_91f6_62ed7d944993_7eda080e34be4768901a0b8 b1346ba5ba5e31ce1.jpeg

[farefield]

What do those who don't want VS to get funds say about P and O Ferries wanting £500 million. A big percentage of our food comes via cross channel ferries so that would be affected if P and O failed.

However it is owned by Dubai Ports so let's forget about em eh?

[qwertyuiop]

What do those who don't want VS to get funds say about P and O Ferries wanting £500 million. A big percentage of our food comes via cross channel ferries so that would be affected if P and O failed.

However it is owned by Dubai Ports so let's forget about em eh?

I think VS is popular however I know Dicky Branson is seen as an Epstein esq tax avoider. I personally hope to see a survival plan for them or we will be swamped by the ME3 and USA airlines in the future.

[esscee]

VS may well be popular, however SRB would be equally so as long as he dips his hand into his own pocket first before going cap in hand to HM Gov!

[Riskybis]

VS may well be popular, however SRB would be equally so as long as he dips his hand into his own pocket first before going cap in hand to HM Gov!

he has to the tune of 250million

[cashash]

What do those who don't want VS to get funds say about P and O Ferries wanting £500 million. A big percentage of our food comes via cross channel ferries so that would be affected if P and O failed.


If P&O collapse and that will cause issues with the distribution of food then the assets should be nationalised as a strategic industry for the UK. The UK taxpayer should certainly not be bailing out foreign companies like Dubai World.

Same goes for Virgin.

[marchino61]

If P&O collapse and that will cause issues with the distribution of food then the assets should be nationalised as a strategic industry for the UK. The UK taxpayer should certainly not be bailing out foreign companies like Dubai World.

Same goes for Virgin.

A collapse of P&O would have little effect. Someone would buy them out of administration for peanuts and carry on as before.

[giggitygiggity]

A collapse of P&O would have little effect. Someone would buy them out of administration for peanuts and carry on as before.
But surely a long period of shutdown before they get going again? That would be far from ideal right now.

[marchino61]

But surely a long period of shutdown before they get going again? That would be far from ideal right now.

Why shut down? If the business is viable, the administrators will usually sell as a going concern.

[farefield]

'"why shut down? If the business is viable, the administrators will usually sell as a going concern."

Because at the moment it it a loss making concern. P and O say that freight alone will not be sustainable.

[marchino61]

'"why shut down? If the business is viable, the administrators will usually sell as a going concern."

Because at the moment it it a loss making concern. P and O say that freight alone will not be sustainable.

It won't be loss making if you buy it for a pound.

[cats_five]

It won't be loss making if you buy it for a pound.

Gosh will that stop cost of running it being more than it's income?

[marchino61]

Gosh will that stop cost of running it being more than it's income?

Yes. Have you ever heard of things like fixed costs, and financing costs? Variable costs are just a part of the equation.

[cats_five]

Yes. Have you ever heard of things like fixed costs, and financing costs? Variable costs are just a part of the equation.

How does selling it for a quid get rid of the fixed costs? Or reduce them enough? We have seen plenty of rescues where a company was sold for that sort of price eventually fold.

[Count von Altibar]

The 250 million wasn't all for the airline, it was for the group. Branson & Delta will have to step in and save Virgin Atlantic, not the UK taxpayer. Don't see BA pleading for cash, as WW said recently, only the fittest will survive this.

[DonTrumpet2020]

Don't see BA pleading for cash

BA seem happy enough to take money from the government through the job retention scheme.......and we won’t mention all the money they cost the taxpayer when they were the State Airline....

[RexBanner]

BA seem happy enough to take money from the government through the job retention scheme.......and we won’t mention all the money they cost the taxpayer when they were the State Airline....

The job protection scheme is designed to protect/help employees who would otherwise be made redundant. Although it will help the finances of a company such as BA out it hardly qualifies as a handout as they could have saved themselves the cost another way by laying people off. The money goes to the furloughed employees through BA as the middleman, they don’t pocket it themselves.

Anyway nobody in the aviation world wants to see Virgin go (apart from Willie)..

[M.Mouse]

....and we won’t mention all the money they cost the taxpayer when they were the State Airline....

You mean during its existence prior to just over 33 years ago?

Why don't we discuss the American airlines and Chapter 11 protection used in the past 20 years if we are to discuss utter irrelevancies?

[marchino61]

How does selling it for a quid get rid of the fixed costs? Or reduce them enough? We have seen plenty of rescues where a company was sold for that sort of price eventually fold.


This is my last attempt to explain this. Fixed costs are things like the purchase price of ships and buildings, which have to be financed.

A ship that costs a pound is a lower fixed cost than one that costs a million pounds.

[navstar1]

Gentlemen some help please. Do any of you have any info regarding Virgin passenger operations resuming after the 26 April? Reason for asking is we are stuck in NZ and have a flight booked back to the UK Air NZ to LAX and then Virgin back to the UK. If you have any info it would be very much appreciated as we are trying to avoid yet another cancellation and yet another flight credit for sometime in the future! Up to now that route with Air NZ and Virgin has been very successful.very many thanks

[there she blows]

Gentlemen some help please. Do any of you have any info regarding Virgin passenger operations resuming after the 26 April? Reason for asking is we are stuck in NZ and have a flight booked back to the UK Air NZ to LAX and then Virgin back to the UK. If you have any info it would be very much appreciated as we are trying to avoid yet another cancellation and yet another flight credit for sometime in the future! Up to now that route with Air NZ and Virgin has been very successful.very many thanks
vs24 on 27 April lax lhr is operating

[navstar1]

vs24 on 27 April lax lhr is operating
very many thanks much appreciated

[there she blows]

very many thanks much appreciated
ok, in fact lax lhr everyday after 27, nothing 26, safe flight

[navstar1]

That info is excellent thank you so much for taking the time to reply. From a lock down NZ kind regards and keep safe and well to all at Virgin Atlantic Blue skies to all

[fruitbat]

First application knocked back..

“Virgin Atlantic has been told to resubmit its proposal for a 500 million pound ($625.35 million) coronavirus bailout package after the UK government was left unimpressed with its initial bid, Financial Times reported”


https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-virgin-atlantic/virgin-atlantic-told-to-resubmit-proposal-for-bailout-package-ft-idUKKBN21Z3D9

[Count von Altibar]

Looks like the owners need to dig a bit deeper before the UK taxpayer will even entertain their request. There will be redundancies without a doubt which is horrible for the employees, but if measures aren't taken soon the pot of cash will dry up rapidly given the continuing lack of people travelling and Virgin Atlantic will be faced with administration. Come on Sir Richard Branson, get your cheque book out again and save your airline yourself, not with taxpayers money.

[qwertyuiop]

I have no idea how any airline can survive this nightmare. The way the governments have scared the crap out of people I cannot see many wanting to get crammed through an airport and then sit on an aircraft for many hours.
For what it’s worth. I would happily get on one tomorrow but looking around the general population I just can’t see it and the authorities seem he’ll bent on preventing it.
The government’s have failed to balance the books with a booming economy, do they have the cash to give to the airlines?

[rog747]

Exactly.

Not much chance of me getting my job back at Heathrow.

Very little chance of me getting a job anywhere else either in the near future.

Commiserations - I have many good pals at VAA - both CC and on the ground/Clubhouse LHR - gonna be tough times ahead - Some of these folk I know have been there almost since the start.

[Black Pudding]

The way the governments have scared the crap out of people

In the last hour, I’ve found out that another (2nd) friend has passed away due to Covid19. I was speaking to him only 7 weeks ago and he was as normal as ever. No health issues and holder of a class 1 medical.

Is the government overreacting you think.

[Maxfli]

Looks like the owners need to dig a bit deeper before the UK taxpayer will even entertain their request. ........... Come on Sir Richard Branson, get your cheque book out again and save your airline yourself, not with taxpayers money.

.....are Delta to be absolved of any necessity to invest?

[esscee]

No, Delta can put their share in too.

[Paul852]

In the last hour, I’ve found out that another (2nd) friend has passed away due to Covid19. I was speaking to him only 7 weeks ago and he was as normal as ever. No health issues and holder of a class 1 medical.

Is the government overreacting you think.I'd need to see data on how many people with Class 1 medicals die each year to be sure, but I'd guess it's quite a few, so I would answer yes.

[Count von Altibar]

It will be interesting to see if Richard Branson is prepared to prop up Virgin Atlantic in the UK, their balance sheet must be getting worse by the day like most. I'd say RB is wondering how much of his own wealth he'll risk in propping up his ailing airline. Virgin Australia has gone into administration according to the press, the aviation world we were used to is changing rapidly.

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/virgin-australia-administration-airline-sir-richard-branson-latest-a9473581.html

[SWBKCB]

The British billionaire, who owns 51% of Virgin Atlantic, says the airline is seeking a commercial loan backed by the UK government, and points to similar financing awarded to budget carrier EasyJet. “It wouldn’t be free money and the airline would pay it back (as EasyJet will do for the £600 million [$748 million] loan the government recently gave them),” writes Branson.


Branson points out in his blog that Virgin Group has “committed a quarter of a billion dollars to help our businesses and protect jobs”, and says it will “continue to invest” what it can. In an apparent rebuttal of criticism on social media levelled at wealthy individuals requesting taxpayer-funded bailouts, the Virgin founder adds: “I’ve seen lots of comments about my net worth – but that is calculated on the value of Virgin businesses around the world before this crisis, not sitting as cash in a bank account ready to withdraw.”

https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/virgin-atlantic-needs-state-support-to-survive-branson/137971.article

[davidjpowell]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/940x788/86134dba_14b2_42b5_acba_e68f07e80e75_343bffc698619a0c79d60a4 bd27f558f211d0af4.jpeg
Fact or not? It’s on social media so must be true..

[wisecaptain]

Fact remains Mr Branson , you have to use your billions to save your airline and sadly even that will not be enough to save VS .
Will you leverage against your banking empire ?? How about your space enterprise ?? Whites of the eyes situation now .
Very sad if VS folds , but you cant expect taxpayers to fund it while you salt away money in the Caribbean.

[covec]

How did the Branson & Delta consortium react to Flybe's plea for help?

[qwertyuiop]

I have no love for Branson. I have never worked for VS and was never really impressed when I flew with them. It would however be a disaster for British aviation if they went under.
The big problem is there is unlikely to be any demand for their product in the near future.

[kpd]

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52354865

[dead_pan]

It would however be a disaster for British aviation if they went under.

Would it? VS are a shadow of their former selves and have been defying financial gravity for years now. Hopefully some other British operator will pick up the slack and their slots when things eventually pick up.

[Busdriver01]

Slight thread drift but i'm curious (and i don't work for VS)... Where does everyone's hatred of Necker Island, specifically, come from? And what does it have to do with VS? He bought it for an equivalent present day cost of about $1.2m... hardly a drop in the ocean when compared to the help the airline actually needs...

[cashash]

I dont think the problem is with Necker as such - just that it is a Caribbean tax haven and people who move their business to a Caribbean tax haven to avoid paying tax should not be eligible for taxpayer support.

[A320baby]

I dont think the problem is with Necker as such - just that it is a Caribbean tax haven and people who move their business to a Caribbean tax haven to avoid paying tax should not be eligible for taxpayer support.

But the businesses do pay tax 🙄🙄

[DooblerChina]

Politics of jealousy, some people would rather thousands of staff get made redundant than help a successful business man save his business.

[cashash]

But the businesses do pay tax 🙄🙄


But Branson doesn't. As the majority share holder any government aid to save his business is going to put money directly into his (offshore) pockets.

[Superpilot]

I dont think the problem is with Necker as such - just that it is a Caribbean tax haven and people who move their business to a Caribbean tax haven to avoid paying tax should not be eligible for taxpayer support.

No Virgin business has moved to a Caribbean tax haven. An old bearded man who launched a business empire and continues to receive dividends and other benefits from his old empire lives in the Caribbean where he is tax domiciled. He's not unique and no one really knows what his "personal" wealth is. The DM likes to think he's worth 4.5billion, that is was the book value of his empire. It's all guess work.

[cashash]

No Virgin business has moved to a Caribbean tax haven. An old bearded man who launched a business empire and continues to receive dividends and other benefits from his old empire lives in the Caribbean where he is tax domiciled. He's not unique and no one really knows what his "personal" wealth is. The DM likes to think he's worth 4.5billion, that is was the book value of his empire. It's all guess work.


the holding company company for Virgin Atlantic is based in a Caribbean tax haven

[Busdriver01]

I think if we were all honest with ourselves, the overwhelming majority would, given the opportunity to buy an island in the Caribbean and use it as a tax haven for our own personal wealth, do much the same.

[radiosutch]

But the businesses do pay tax 🙄🙄

Hmmm, that statement fro RB is corporate speak. Just like Google, Amazon or Apple "We pay tax in each country'. That may be true, but what they don't say is how much they shift profits around so that in any one country they pay a fraction of what you would expect. They do corporate accounting, the profits accumulate in low tax jurisdictions, like the BVI.
So, to summarise he's probably right they do pay some tax, but what he doesn't say is that his holding company, probably in the BVI is incredibly profitable and pays no tax anywhere. All legal.

[Superpilot]

That I'm guessing is an employment vehicle for him to get his dividends which he is entitled to. Again, the onshore businesses are not shoveling their onshore income abroad like you first insinuated, unlike Apple, Amazon, Google et all.

[Joe le Taxi]

I have no love for Branson. I have never worked for VS and was never really impressed when I flew with them. At a meeting at Crawley about ten years ago, I was quite shocked at how openly Virgin managers expressed their dislike for RB. As for the product/service, I have never much cared for it either, and generally opt for competitors, usually BA. However, I don't see why he should be shamed into propping up an unsustainable business. He might run a charity, but he isn't one himself. Businessmen who get emotionally attached to a failing business tend not to stay rich very long (and for sure, RB has in the past, been emotionally attached to VS, and for its brand value, but I suspect he might be approaching an age where he'd rather let it go and enjoy his retirement).

[radiosutch]

That I'm guessing is an employment vehicle for him to get his dividends which he is entitled to. Again, the onshore businesses are not shoveling their onshore income abroad like you first insinuated, unlike Apple, Amazon, Google et all.
Do have evidence of that statement?

[LVL_CHG]

Would it? VS are a shadow of their former selves and have been defying financial gravity for years now. Hopefully some other British operator will pick up the slack and their slots when things eventually pick up.

As you say "hopefully" someone else will pick up the slack. Not many other British operators left, let alone ones prepared to jump into the LH market. In the meantime London airways mops up.

[Ancient Observer]

I do hate redundancies and employment uncertainty. I have been made redundant 3 times, so I know the feeling.
However, RB's personal tax arrangements are going to cause the downfall of Virgin Atlantic. No Government will prop them up whilst he lives tax-free outside the UK.
Once he and Delta have pumped in a billion UKP in cash, each, then they can ask again.

[Gove N.T.]

But Branson doesn't. As the majority share holder any government aid to save his business is going to put money directly into his (offshore) pockets.
last i heard KL/AF 31% DL 49%. Virgin group 20%. So majority share holder is wrong. Yopr assertion that he would or could pocket the aid if forthcoming is puerile rubbish.

[Just This Once...]

I think if we were all honest with ourselves, the overwhelming majority would, given the opportunity to buy an island in the Caribbean and use it as a tax haven for our own personal wealth, do much the same.

My imagination is stretched to capacity, but yes in a similar and amazing position it would be hard not to follow RB's path and buy an island in the Caribbean - we are all human.

Until his wealth, private island and associated trappings are all exhausted the chances of attracting money from the UK tax payer is about zero - they are all human too.

:)

[Ancient Observer]

That KL/AF stake has not been confirmed. It was a "plan".

[Andy D]

That I'm guessing is an employment vehicle for him to get his dividends which he is entitled to. Again, the onshore businesses are not shoveling their onshore income abroad like you first insinuated, unlike Apple, Amazon, Google et all.

Virgin uses at least one of the techniques that Apple, Amazon, Google et al use to avoid tax

Virgin brand is licensed by the Caribbean holding company to the various companies around the world, and they pay a royalty for using it - the royalty fee is cost for those businesses so reduces their profits (if they make any), but it's income (and ultimately profit) for the holding company that's in tax free location

[Douglas Bahada]

I fear for Virgin Atlantic. I have never understood the allure. 20 years ago some of their SFOs' were seconded to a fledgling easyjet as Captains during one of their periodic slumps. Every crisis seems to turn into an existential battle for them.

[Zeus]

Most of the discussion about Virgin Atlantic centres on Richard Branson and not the thousands of UK employees.
RB chooses to live in the Caribbean because he likes it there. He bought Necker decades ago. He is not like Phil Collins, Lewis Hamilton etc who move to Switzerland purely to avoid UK tax.

[qwertyuiop]

Would Branson prefer to handover all interests in VS to the U.K. tax payer or let the brand die? I want to see the brand survive and the jobs keptbut don’t want any tax money being handed to Branson.

[Zeus]

This is not money being given to VS he is asking for. It is a loan.

[cashash]

last i heard KL/AF 31% DL 49%. Virgin group 20%. So majority share holder is wrong. Yopr assertion that he would or could pocket the aid if forthcoming is puerile rubbish.

KL/AF deal fell through - it was mentioned earlier in the thread.

[cashash]

Most of the discussion about Virgin Atlantic centres on Richard Branson and not the thousands of UK employees.

There are many foreign companies that have UK employees - should the UK taxpayer be bailing out United Airlines for example?


RB chooses to live in the Caribbean because he likes it there. He bought Necker decades ago. He is not like Phil Collins, Lewis Hamilton etc who move to Switzerland purely to avoid UK tax.

He could still choose to to be tax resident in the UK

[Meester proach]

If easyJet get a loan surely so should VA ?

best of luck to all the guys/gals there

[giggitygiggity]

If easyJet get a loan surely so should VA ?

best of luck to all the guys/gals there
I assume they hadn't sufficently demonstrated how they would reduce costs and come up with a plan to repay the loan. Being an airline surely wouldn't be the only criteria in order to be offered a loan?

[cashash]

I assume they hadn't sufficently demonstrated how they would reduce costs and come up with a plan to repay the loan. Being an airline surely wouldn't be the only criteria in order to be offered a loan?


I thought it was because easyjet are a UK registered company. If the Virgin Group Holdings Ltd want a similar deal then surely they should be approaching the Government of the British Virgin Islands where they are based.

[giggitygiggity]

I thought it was because easyjet are a UK registered company. If the Virgin Group Holdings Ltd want a similar deal then surely they should be approaching the Government of the British Virgin Islands where they are based.
If that's the case, why did the British government ask them to resubmit it? What would be the point if they were never entitled to it in the first place?

[NutLoose]

Interesting read.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/apr/20/richard-branson-renews-virgin-plea-for-coronavirus-support

[Serenity]

Genuine question, I know many at Virgin and love to see them survive, but assuming say Branson puts his Island up as collateral and they get a UK government loan of 5 or 600m.
they’ve never made huge profits previously, whether by the markets or intentionally to put money elsewhere,

so in a possibly reduced aviation climate, how would they survive enough afterwards to repay the loan???
or was this the UK government’s reason to decline them first time around??

[wisecaptain]

Rishi Sunak clearly stated that VS should find a solution .
Branson can approach the credit markets and show some willing to borrow just as Carnival Cruise did . A few months ago they borrowed $500Million at 1% compared to a couple of weeks ago where they had to pay 15% .... but they payed and they survive .
Its there and available if Branson wants it , he just doesnt want to put VS and himself on the hook for expensive credit that would allow the creditors to hold him by the short and curlies . He wants the easy option from the UK Govt where by he can delay delay and delay repayments with whatever excuses he wants .

[MichaelKPIT]

Imagine what it is like to read that as one of their employees. What value can any employee get from that comment?

Well said. This is an absolutely horrible time for everyone involved.

[xray one]

I sometimes despair at human nature whether it’s from a troll or someone in another airline. 10,000 jobs are at stake and the vast majority of you want to see Virgin fail purely so Branson fails. Years ago, he had a vision and 30 years later we had, until recently, a flourishing airline. The airline has spent the last few years restructuring and trimming costs, we now have a fleet of the most fuel-efficient aircraft going (744s were due to retire next year). We were on the up, announcing new routes later this year, with the Joint Venture with Delta paying dividends. We had a good ‘fighting fund’ of £450 million which would have seen us through most recessions. But not this one. How the Government is handling this shambles is for another day.

BA would love to see all airlines apart from theirs go bust. I bet they are already thinking about the windfall of SAA going under. Wee Willy Walsh has made no secret of wanting Virgin to go under. The calibre of the man was shown when he wanted to wager that we would go under in 5 years with the prize of a knee in the bollocks to the loser, that 5 years passed some time ago. When Casio Royale aired on board BA flights, he made sure a short clip of Branson was removed – how utterly childish. It’s pure greed and a power trip, just how many houses and Ferrari’s do people need.

When I hear of an airline going under I am genuinely saddened – regardless how they were managed. I was very happy we could help a few from Monarch and Thomas Cook recently.

His tax is his own business, I don’t know the facts and I’m sure you and Diane Abbott don’t either. All I know is that over the 30 years Virgin Atlantic and its employees have paid Billions in tax to the Government and £350 millions last year alone. We are only asking for a loan of £500 million for which Branson is offering his island as a guarantee.

As a footnote. All you keyboard warriors who drink at Starbucks, have an iPhone, Google on a regular basis and Facetime/Instagram think how much you’re giving to companies who pay fcuk all in tax.

[cashash]

His tax is his own business,


That would be perfectly true if he were not seeking assistance from the UK taxpayer - as it is it is every taxpayers business how their taxes are spent.

Perhaps if he were offering the UK Government a 25% share in the ownership of the airline I can see that would be more palatable.

[xray one]

Cashash - don't quote just part of a sentence...(are you Diane Abbott by any chance?)

It's Virgin Atlantic asking for a LOAN, we have paid Billions in tax over the years.

Get back in your box and try to understand how life and finances work

[radiosutch]

Cashash - don't quote just part of a sentence...(are you Diane Abbott by any chance?)

It's Virgin Atlantic asking for a LOAN, we have paid Billions in tax over the years.

Get back in your box and try to understand how life and finances work

I seriously doubt the Virgin UK domiciled companies have paid 'Billions' in tax over the years. Do you have any evidence of this?

[NutLoose]

That would be perfectly true if he were not seeking assistance from the UK taxpayer - as it is it is every taxpayers business how their taxes are spent.

Perhaps if he were offering the UK Government a 25% share in the ownership of the airline I can see that would be more palatable.

but it’s not Richard Branson that he is borrowing a loan for, its Virgin Airlines The company that does pay taxes in the U.K. and it is a Loan did you understand that, a LOAN that will be repaid , imagine going to the bank and asking for a mortgage and them demanding 1/4 of your house for it..

I totally agree with X-ray One.

[cashash]

Cashash - don't quote just part of a sentence...(are you Diane Abbott by any chance?)

It's Virgin Atlantic asking for a LOAN, we have paid Billions in tax over the years.

Get back in your box and try to understand how life and finances work

I'm perfectly clear how finance works thanks. If foreign companies need to raise finance then they usually go to the financial sector or sell existing stock or issue new stock. Branson want to keep his 51% control and not sell at firesale prices (understandably) - I dont see it is the role of the UK taxpayer to support his continued ownership especially as he is no longer resident in the country.

[cashash]

but it’s not Richard Branson that he is borrowing a loan for, its Virgin Airlines The company that does pay taxes in the U.K. and it is a Loan did you understand that, a LOAN that will be repaid , imagine going to the bank and asking for a mortgage and them demanding 1/4 of your house for it..

I totally agree with X-ray One.

Well I admire your optimism that Virgin will never go bust, given the state of the industry its not a view I would ever share tbh. As regards your comment about demanding your house - I would just point out that many businesses have to put up collateral to get finance, happens every day.

[NutLoose]

2018

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-live.ch.gov.uk/docs/X-K8Ct_Jsq68ktrRuk18ywWlEAXbndA0LYP2PDFqbf8/application-pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Content-Sha256=UNSIGNED-PAYLOAD&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAWRGBDBV3OVFB4QXR%2F20200420%2Feu-west-2%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20200420T214401Z&X-Amz-Expires=60&X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEPX%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCW V1LXdlc3QtMiJHMEUCIFO%2FVNgFmbxTsRc%2FSKZQ3GVlmC7XP9rywQLf9t sITR5mAiEA5Rympu2NkVCGI7S13TDNubE9ah67TM89JtR3NjpPPXUqtAMIHh ACGgw0NDkyMjkwMzI4MjIiDG1J89I52xqRin1tzCqRA3JcbknNFSJmHES83Q yIoJ6tW7ZHWkfd1d4sWks0OkCY6%2BtE5nhHfO5%2Ft6idJOOBOG25beu4QV 06yaq%2BsEGhzff4ueWvXiKUIChfp09WLSNqVDM7juGdtj7LlwHpI7nTxcdf %2BqCCcN4%2FRR8x7ltPLOA%2FTy2f7hSg%2FPZy%2B9CnZRg7uuigmi3mQu kGeNGmlXx8CHqtu0C4DHn%2BfG7joraGNmSOKgNGO9aIyglKSAVvH9sjQiT5 xaBiYuH27i%2BHjSQ1%2BVAbylbpjQTRAsoocjU0dtdj2Il%2FIVuLIZlp%2 FZrm5urFrl9tC1bD5Z4CUDx2HLJZX81BgcK0hd5RnFm5ZjBA2keuZJfuCbYl kIjR9uRytztQEPd7J7Re5TFP8pjDFXDGjsnGE8vq%2BxzvbeQ820jFMgl%2F JDAna8iC7%2FkB%2Bm7UJct%2F5UjSebnuGmTUNms2FDXHN1KkjGgwfzHJEo fwVIOq5pCkBBkHycwRWo16VhJS9xEtk8trK5tj3djSR9zyLsWpuHixS%2B38 6ZbedEV0Ss%2FRrp7FMNad%2BPQFOusBWZmQbkUAHwc0iKMTGk1C4tELCaTK jeJdw6YuDhq%2FzOV67VUhaRCHDS8SUz4UDBkyp6CwvWDp3gk1bVFuvUP8gj pfynP4ZdsFoW8VHegNxlqKYjVdliTSI5zUE35%2FmZaQXrqLRmTqcfRuL3%2 F8tbTmctYAZ3otdKoWQv1XNFxjuBhSGg9BHgGIfThdWiZLNg5WvImfHwIYU5 4OEX7EOHYcJCRmL29XLBF4C2CLfYaDoy7pBrHkOmzvA1aMc2T1ZbPvwf%2FC uEWXwQ5k3qO90w98xeKDkdhgARxXer%2Br66PLY9YX0PBfu54Y9tIVdQ%3D% 3D&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=cf197f010a21c3574381b8cd22628a0689d9643120ce1cd965 68262d3414f843

[Flying Clog]

Hang on, how exactly are they going to repay this loan if/when there's no business to make money? In fact, they'll probably be pissing money away for years. How do they repay the lender?

[RexBanner]

Best of luck to the guys and girls at Virgin, some of my earliest childhood aviation memories are of visiting the flightdeck on the old classic 747s on our way to the USA in the 80s and early 90s. I only have to hear Donald Fagen’s What a Beautiful World and I’m taken back to those times. Some of my ex colleagues and friends are there and deserve all the fortune that Lady Luck can smile on them. Despite what WW may think we at BA need Virgin to keep us honest. Hopefully there is a way, any way to keep what is a great British Airline afloat, God knows we’ve seen too many failures recently. Chin up chaps from one BA employee on the other side of the fence but very much in solidarity at this difficult time (we’re not immune from this either, despite what ideas people may have).

[DaveReidUK]

Despite what WW may think we at BA need Virgin to keep us honest.

That didn't work too well in the past. :O

[xray one]

Radiosuctch

I seriously doubt the Virgin UK domiciled companies have paid 'Billions' in tax over the years. Do you have any evidence of this?

Read the whole piece - Virgin Atlantic and their employees. In my time at VA I have paid £700,000 in tax. We have over 1,000 pilots. Add to that another 9,000 Cabin Crew and ground staff. Stop asking stupid and ill informed questions you pathetic troll.

[RexBanner]

That didn't work too well in the past. :O

Set that one up perfectly :ok:

[Holer Moler]

Best of luck to the guys and girls at Virgin, some of my earliest childhood aviation memories are of visiting the flightdeck on the old classic 747s on our way to the USA in the 80s and early 90s. I only have to hear Donald Fagen’s What a Beautiful World and I’m taken back to those times. Some of my ex colleagues and friends are there and deserve all the fortune that Lady Luck can smile on them. Despite what WW may think we at BA need Virgin to keep us honest. Hopefully there is a way, any way to keep what is a great British Airline afloat, God knows we’ve seen too many failures recently. Chin up chaps from one BA employee on the other side of the fence but very much in solidarity at this difficult time (we’re not immune from this either, despite what ideas people may have).

Rex- What a nice post-great to see such solidarity after what has not been a great day for the Virgin family.

If SRB/VAA management & Delta can negotiate a deal through the banks then there is hope that the airline will survive. But not in the format we see today! The airline has to become leaner and management will have to prove that they will take what ever action is necessary to get them on side. A few weeks ago the company retired the last of the A340-600's and have dropped operations at LGW and MAN, leaving LHR as the main base. So what else can they do to reduce costs! the obvious one is to retire the 744's & here lies a dilemma! make all the 400 pilots redundant or comply with the seniority list ? Further reductions in fleet size might also be needed so the A330-200 (4) is looking venerable. The plus side is Virgin operates a very modern fleet of 17 B787-9 and at present 4 A350-1000'S with 7 more expected in 2021 as well as up to 11 A330-Neo's on order (although these may well be in the balance). Will this swing things to preserve UK jobs at airbus is anyones guess.

These are unprecedented times, it is my hope that UK will see through all the bad press that "Richard" has received and recognise that the bloke is an innovator, fighter and most importantly a motivator. With out his vision 1000's of people around the globe would not have been able to provide for their families.

Stay safe.

[fruitbat]

Branson was widely quoted in the press back in 2009 arguing against the UK government bailing out BA after the financial crisis.

[touch&go]

The problem is how Branson has constructed the company that has resulted in little cash and no assets for a rainy day, the article in today’s Telegraph gave some insight to this, the company has no assets, rented offices, rented aircraft and it also rents its name it also stated the landing slots are also borrowed against so can’t be used as an asset, the problem for the government is they also need to protect tax payers and in the event of a liquidation what money can be raised to repay the loan, total mess, easyJet raised 600 million but own a lot of aircraft so the loan was a easy transaction, BA own aircraft so can also raise money, seems virgin has maxed out the credit card before this crisis so no room for manoeuvre.

[beardy]

I sincerely hope that Virgin Atlantic survive and go on to thrive. I know many of you and have witnessed other companies collapse and would not wish that on anybody.

Perhaps the time has come for the British Government to buy (nationalise) Sir Richard Brandon's interest in the company thus fulfilling his sincere desire to see the company survive. If he wished to continue to participate he could, of course, be taken on as an employee.

[radiosutch]

Radiosuctch



Read the whole piece - Virgin Atlantic and their employees. In my time at VA I have paid £700,000 in tax. We have over 1,000 pilots. Add to that another 9,000 Cabin Crew and ground staff. Stop asking stupid and ill informed questions you pathetic troll.

Well, I'm talking about the companies. Generally the staff are not in a position to shift salaries around the world to avoid taxes. The little person generally gets clobbered for tax. Not so big corporates that employ dozens of tax lawyers to exploit every loophole.
Anyway, both you and I are entitled to our opinions and I don't intend changing mine about how these big corporates avoid taxes. But thanks for engaging.

PS - why do you have to be so nasty? You don't know me, you don't know I am stupid or ill informed. And as to being a troll, then please reread what I said above.
Have a nice day.

Out

[radiosutch]

The problem is how Branson has constructed the company that has resulted in little cash and no assets for a rainy day, the article in today’s Telegraph gave some insight to this, the company has no assets, rented offices, rented aircraft and it also rents its name it also stated the landing slots are also borrowed against so can’t be used as an asset, the problem for the government is they also need to protect tax payers and in the event of a liquidation what money can be raised to repay the loan, total mess, easyJet raised 600 million but own a lot of aircraft so the loan was a easy transaction, BA own aircraft so can also raise money, seems virgin has maxed out the credit card before this crisis so no room for manoeuvre.

Well said. It's how many big corporates are organised these days. Lease,rent but never buy and borrow to the limit all in the name of providing shareholders with maximum return. It's a bean counters paradise.

It's all coming home to roost.

[MDS]

Read the whole piece - Virgin Atlantic and their employees. In my time at VA I have paid £700,000 in tax. We have over 1,000 pilots. Add to that another 9,000 Cabin Crew and ground staff.

I'd just like to point out that nobody is attacking you nor the other hard working employees personally. Your income tax is paid by your hard work as an individual, the same with the rest of the staff. This is what covers your furlough pay and any other benefits that you as an individual deserve.

However it's not you who is asking for the loan, it's Virgin Atlantic as a company. We're looking at corporation tax that they (as a company) have contributed, which is minimal, as it's offshored as much as possible.

While I definitely don't want to see anybody out of a job, I just don't think the UK taxpayer should be giving Virgin Group and Delta Air Lines a bailout (nor a loan). If the company does go bankrupt down the line, the money is gone. Judging by the fact the airline has lost money consistently without the coronavirus crisis in play shows how likely the loan is to be paid back. If a commercial bank doesn't see this as a worthwhile opportunity, I don't see why the taxpayer should be the one to take the risks. I'm completely against privatizing profits, and socializing losses (or at least the risk aspect). If this was such a winning investment surely SRB would liquidate some of his assets, to invest the money, to recoup the profits from such a wise decision later?

Once again, this isn't an attack on you, nor any of the frontline employees. You do your best day in and day out and can't be held accountable for corporate decisions, and I don't like poor management hiding behind frontline staff as their defense barrier.

I do wish you and the rest of the Virgin Atlantic staff all the best, although this situation is absolutely nothing of your doing.

[stormin norman]

Good post MDS .Sums up what I believe the average (Taxpayer) man in the street is thinking .

[Count von Altibar]

Fully agree with MDS and touch&go post above. They're lacking assets and have been doing badly during the good times throwing money at Virgin Atlantic is a flawed strategy, especially taxpayers money which will likely never be seen again. I feel genuinely sorry for the employees it's bad enough dealing with this virus never mind facing redundancy. Personally I do not want to see any government financial assistance to Virgin Atlantic, it would be the wrong thing to do and is not in the UK taxpayers interest.

[Zeus]

Hate to drag facts in to this discussion...
"Offshore"? Have a look at:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/308954/virgin-atlantic-airways--uk-taxation/
Bear in mind that the tax Virgin Atlantic paid in the UK is quoted in thousands of pounds.

[cashash]

Perhaps the time has come for the British Government to buy (nationalise) Sir Richard Brandon's interest in the company thus fulfilling his sincere desire to see the company survive. If he wished to continue to participate he could, of course, be taken on as an employee.

I think the problem with nationalisation is that it could then be seen as unfair competition to BA given that once nationalised its access to funding would be much easier and cheaper through the government than the commercial markets that BA would have to rely on.

[dead_pan]

Hang on, how exactly are they going to repay this loan if/when there's no business to make money? In fact, they'll probably be pissing money away for years. How do they repay the lender?

Well, if it all goes south we'll all get a timeshare in a lovely Caribbean island. That'll be our holidays sorted forever.

[dead_pan]

From Virgin's tax strategy statement:

The Virgin Group always considers its reputation, brand, corporate and social responsibilities when evaluating tax matters and seeks to avoid any tax controversy which may bring the brand into disrepute. Accordingly, the Group does not devise or implement UK tax avoidance schemes.

I'm not a tax lawyer but even I can see that last sentence offers some significant acreage of wriggle room and interpretative flexibility.

[Gove N.T.]

Fully agree with MDS and touch&go post above. They're lacking assets and have been doing badly during the good times throwing money at Virgin Atlantic is a flawed strategy, especially taxpayers money which will likely never be seen again. I feel genuinely sorry for the employees it's bad enough dealing with this virus never mind facing redundancy. Personally I do not want to see any government financial assistance to Virgin Atlantic, it would be the wrong thing to do and is not in the UK taxpayers interest.
Several posts offer sympathy for the staff but all those are easy words to write when you're not involved.
When you start an airline from scratch (G-ViRG) with a view to take on goliath or at least tweak his ear,is it surprising that RB has an emotional attachment to it and the staff and will do what he can to ensure it's survival. There's so much horse manure over his wealth. Does anyone really believe he has billions in his current account? Dream on. I suspect many on this site invest their earnings which will have taken real hit in the last few months ĵust like his.
Should VS fold it won't be easy for a new airline to take it's place in the foreseeable future. If one does try it will face a similar Marshall/King type onslaught.. What a gift to Goliath. The little man in charge of IAG will be rubbing his hands with glee.
It's sad to see a competitor in this state for reasons entirely beyond its control.
Perhaps the Treasury has taken the view that regardless of what he comes up with, no airline will make money for many year and any loans with interest will be a pointless exercise
I suspect BA will suffer serious redundancies soon after airlines start to fly again competing with spbsidised US carriers unless of course BA go cap in hand to the Govt.
The 3rd runway is a distant ship smoke on the horizon (Pink Floyd)

[Andy D]

Hate to drag facts in to this discussion...
"Offshore"? Have a look at:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/308954/virgin-atlantic-airways--uk-taxation/
Bear in mind that the tax Virgin Atlantic paid in the UK is quoted in thousands of pounds.

Can't see the chart without paying for it but looks like it covers 2007-2014 so it misses some years of profitability and some years of losses

[kcockayne]

I think the problem with nationalisation is that it could then be seen as unfair competition to BA given that once nationalised its access to funding would be much easier and cheaper through the government than the commercial markets that BA would have to rely on.
If nationalization of VIR happens, it will more than likely also involve the nationalization of BAW, too. Possibly in the same company. This situation is of such monumental proportions that it will involve unimaginable solutions, if there is no respite soon. Questions as to what tax Branson & VIR pay will be of absolutely NO significance. We are talking about nothing less than the possible complete annihilation of the British airline sector - NOT TO MENTION the rest of the British economy. Concentrate on that, rather than running anyone down ( I don’t refer to you in that, cashash).

[cashash]

Well, if it all goes south we'll all get a timeshare in a lovely Caribbean island. That'll be our holidays sorted forever.


Unfortunately not..he is not proposing to use the Island as collateral against a loan from the Government, only against loans from the private sector banks.



The billionaire later confirmed that he is not offering Necker Island as collateral on loans from the UK taxpayer, but only as security against commercial loans.

“He and the team at Virgin Group will use the resources available to them which could even include raising money against Necker,” his spokesperson said. “He does not state that Necker Island would be used as collateral against any potential government support Virgin Atlantic may receive.”

[there she blows]

Let's face it, VS are pretty much a cooked goose. No pun intended with the spruce. Well now we have Virgin Australian outfit in admin, it cant be long before Atlantic will follow them. Nothing from the UK government unless RB forgoes his share and Delta follow. I suppose Delta could move for the 51% shares, using Trump money, very unlikely as VS isn't exactly looking like it could break even in the medium term never mind turn a profit. Businesses will fail and that's the way of the world. Don't get too attached and on these forums we have a vast number of very well rewarded people crying about how bad things are of going to be. Well my comrades things are lot worse for so so many others.

Life is full of ups and downs, okay we have a lot of downs at the moment but some ups will appear.

Just gotta to get on and live and be happy with what you have, stop the crying and get on.
This girlie is a windup,probably the daughter of lord king, with psychiatric issues,
ignore the git

[qwertyuiop]

I really hope Branson saves his baby, I can’t see him and the UK tax payers coming to any agreement though.

[RexBanner]

It’s probably worth pointing out that ‘British’ Airways is a brand of a Madrid registered company which is 25% owned by the Qatari government. Qatar is a place where homosexuality is a capital crime, and they are on Iran’s side in a proxy war against Saudi Arabia. So when you fly ‘British’ Airways you are putting bullets in guns in Syria and Yemen.

It’s probably not. Unless you’re a wind up merchant or troll. In which case fill your boots, helpfully there’s an ignore button for the rest of us.

[A320baby]

stole this from someone

Just running the numbers on Virgin Atlantic, based on Dec 2018 figures:
- £2.7b turnover = £0 VAT (zero-rated)
- Operating profit of -£45m = £0 corporation tax (because they were loss making, presumably they paid 20% tax on past profits of £150-200m and aim to get back to this)

However...
- Salaries of £407m = £81m PAYE (20% base rate, some will be higher rate of course so this is low estimate) + £8.1m (2% national insurance)
- Air passenger duty (£150 per UK outbound long-haul flight) x 5.19m passengers (2018, Statistica) = £778.5m

Total: £867.6m tax contributions per year

Most of the media coverage I've seen looks to be about Richard Branson, but it feels like lazy journalism. Surely it's not about him, it's about saving 8,571 jobs which contribute £407m directly into the UK economy and a further £867.6m in tax to HMRC.

Let me know if I'm missing anything?

[Contact Approach]

Rip to VS. I’ll never forget you.

[Pilot DAR]

Posting is not required. So, if you wish to post, polite, respectful discussion please....

[T250]

Rex B

Welcome to troll world. Hardly a professional pilot in sight. Thank you for your kind words earlier in this thread.

What the hard of thinking trolls are missing is that if Virgin doesn’t survive then HMRC will have a big hole in their budget to the tune of about 10,000 direct employees’ tax and NI. Not to mention the knock on effect of all the associated companies.

The other thing that’s intensely annoying is the idea that the company was struggling before. Challenges existed certainly but the Joint Venture with Delta was going well and the leisure flights were busy. Virgin Holidays were doing well. Anyway, sorry to inject some facts into this thread.

The 'hard of thinking' can see how such a 'big hole' you mention will be nothing compared to a total wipeout loan or other financial assistance offered by the Treasury/Taxpayers never being repaid when VA goes down at a later point. Not all businesses can and will be saved, Rishi has said it many times and unfortunately VA does not cut the mustard given its most recent financial performance. Good money after bad. Nothing to do with wishing ill of the airline or its staff, corporate greed and mismanagement have lead here, with Covid the catalyst.

[rattman]

Most of the media coverage I've seen looks to be about Richard Branson, but it feels like lazy journalism. Surely it's not about him, it's about saving 8,571 jobs which contribute £407m directly into the UK economy and a further £867.6m in tax to HMRC.



Australia is going through this exact same thing with virgin australia going going into voluntary admin, they are 20% etihad, 20% SAL, 20% Nashan 20% another chinese group, 10% branson. Haven't made a profit in 8 years. Requested a 1,4 billion loan from australian govt. We have the same decision to make prop up foreign owned airline that has makes no money but employees 10K australians or let it die and see what takes over

[calypso]

The 'hard of thinking' can see how such a 'big hole' you mention will be nothing compared to a total wipeout loan or other financial assistance offered by the Treasury/Taxpayers never being repaid when VA goes down at a later point

Since you have such clarity of thinking yourself can we have the actual numbers you base that statement on. I presume that your "thinking" is based on actual calculations including the size of the loan, interest, tax revenues, etc

[rotorwills]

Credit to this mornings UK Times for the majority of below.



Whatever way you look at it, Sir Richard is still a fabulously wealthy chap. Yes, as the owner of airlines, hotels, cruise ships, holiday companies and gyms, he’s in the eye of the Covid-19 storm. But he’s hardly skint. His latest stock market venture, the space travel group Virgin Galactic, is valued at $3.33 billion and he owns 51 per cent of it. His brand licensing business, Virgin Enterprises Ltd, pays him an annuity of around £90 million a year. His 13 per cent holding in Virgin Money is worth about £130 million. And he took more than $1 billion out of the Virgin America airline. Then there are his interests in private Virgin businesses, plus a property portfolio. He values Necker at $100 million-plus.

There’s money to be found, even if Virgin Australia collapsed yesterday, wiping out his 10 per cent equity stake. But there’s also another issue: is bailing out Virgin Atlantic a good use of taxpayers’ money? Sir Richard says he only wants a “commercial loan” and that he’s willing to invest $250 million across the Virgin Group, including a chunky sum in the airline. Yet look at its figures and it’s not the most inviting case for a mooted £500 million taxpayer loan.



The latest are for 2018, where the carrier had a pre-tax loss of £60 million on top of 2017’s near-£80 million losses. And the balance sheet hardly reassured: £1.55 billion of debt, gearing of 5.1 times and negative net assets of £20.1 million.





Yes, Virgin says the airline was heading for a return to profit this year. But it hasn’t made a profit since 2016. What hope post-virus? Will it be in any state to fulfil his promise that it would “pay back” a government loan? And why should the taxpayer step in for Delta, valued at $15 billion but finding it tricky to chip in because it’s taken US state support? The government is right to insist on a post-virus business plan and cash from the owners before entertaining any readies for Virgin Atlantic. And it doesn’t help that Sir Richard’s been here so recently with his shameless Flybe begging bowl act.

Another thing rankles, too: that despite his pledge to present “the actual facts”, there is arguably zero transparency over the Branson money trail that ends up in the parent company: Virgin Group Holdings, controlled by his family trusts in the tax-free British Virgin Islands. If he wants a bailout, he can lift the lid on that.



Anyone who wishes to avail themselves of information on RB and his virgin group should take time out to read Tom Bowers book. Branson. Behind the mask. Rather apt title now with this dreaded virus.

There are quite a few well researched articles appearing regarding SRB begging bowl, none, that I have found to be in support, with most condemning him personally. Many quoting, live by the sword die by the sword​​​​​.
One cannot really look to support with tax payers money a secreted set of corporations sheltered in Tax havens without clear transparency. Many cite what about the employees, well isn't that the case for the millions being put out of work. The UK government should try and assist essential workers along with companies that are profitable but VA aren't essential and certainly not profitable.

[ford cortina]

Having suffered Virgin West Coast on a regular basis over the last 20 years, watching the cost of my First Class Season Ticket climb faster than the Bell X1 every time I have to renew, forgive me if I don't have too much sympathy for the Bearded One.
That said, huge rail subsidy aside, Virgin Group was only paid £300 million on dividends from the rail franchise, only pocket change.

I have no desire to see people lose their jobs, I have suffered this myself several times over the years, but Virgin Atlantic is no different than any other airline, they don't deserve better treatment, despite the fact they are my first choice when I travel to the US on business.

Rotorwills, speaks the truth, but thanks to many years of spin Sir Richard comes across as a everyman most of us won't accept it.

[Icarus2001]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x394/12168934_16x9_700x394_d54ad392e0316acca7e87412202b6846a4f816 cb.jpg
Branson ripping up a cheque for AUD$240 million from SIA to buy VB in 2001.

[8029848s]

Sadly the crux of the issue is Virgin is a strong brand, but a poor business. When you want people to loan you money , even the government, you need to be viable. The figures tell a grim story.

If Virgin do come through this there will need to be significant changes, smaller fleet, less flying from the regions and big changes in manpower. None of the employees are to blame but present and past management have not served them well, failing to make the changes required to make it a competitive operation.

As for the argument about competition, there will always be someone to fill the gap should they fold, but let's try to keep another British Airline from becoming history.

Hope there second attempt at convincing the government has some serious business plan behind it to convince those involved...I am guessing the first didn't.

Branson's letter was poor, as has been his response to date. Not a great role model.

[Fly747]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/21/richard-branson-bailout

Worth a read. So many businesses need saving. It is hard to see why this should be one of them as there will be excess airline capacity for a long time to come.

[Zeus]

In economics you will read of the multiplier effect.
If I earn £10 I will probably save 10% i.e. £1 and spend the remaining £9.
The people I spend the £9 will probably save 10% =90p and spend the remaining £8.90
The people they spend their £8.90 with will save 10% i.e 89p and spend the remaining £8.01
etc etc etc the amount earned multiplies.

The same applies in reverse.

If the Treasury allow companies to go bust due to short term shortfalls the effect will be much more than the amount saved by not loaning companies the necessary funds.
In the long term the whole economy goes down the drain.

[Andy D]

stole this from someone

Just running the numbers on Virgin Atlantic, based on Dec 2018 figures:
- £2.7b turnover = £0 VAT (zero-rated)
- Operating profit of -£45m = £0 corporation tax (because they were loss making, presumably they paid 20% tax on past profits of £150-200m and aim to get back to this)

However...
- Salaries of £407m = £81m PAYE (20% base rate, some will be higher rate of course so this is low estimate) + £8.1m (2% national insurance)
- Air passenger duty (£150 per UK outbound long-haul flight) x 5.19m passengers (2018, Statistica) = £778.5m

Total: £867.6m tax contributions per year

Most of the media coverage I've seen looks to be about Richard Branson, but it feels like lazy journalism. Surely it's not about him, it's about saving 8,571 jobs which contribute £407m directly into the UK economy and a further £867.6m in tax to HMRC.

Let me know if I'm missing anything?

Not sure it's as straightforward as that…

Given the timescales being suggested for air travel to recover it seems a proportion of that PAYE / NI (less staff needed), and APD (less passengers flying) is already lost, and that's going to be the case for all airlines

[beardy]

In economics you will read of the multiplier effect.
If I earn £10 I will probably save 10% i.e. £1 and spend the remaining £9.
The people I spend the £9 will probably save 10% =90p and spend the remaining £8.90
The people they spend their £8.90 with will save 10% i.e 89p and spend the remaining £8.01
etc etc etc the amount earned multiplies.

The same applies in reverse.

If the Treasury allow companies to go bust due to short term shortfalls the effect will be much more than the amount saved by not loaning companies the necessary funds.
In the long term the whole economy goes down the drain.
Ah, the 'trickle down effect' beloved darling of Thatcher and Reagan. It never really worked as intended. Large amounts of money were not spent and the wealth gap widened.

[Pearly White]

Well, if it all goes south we'll all get a timeshare in a lovely Caribbean island. That'll be our holidays sorted forever.
Although, of course, if there are no airlines when all goes south, you may have to row there.

[Pearly White]

Ah, the 'trickle down effect' beloved darling of Thatcher and Reagan. It never really worked as intended. Large amounts of money were not spent and the wealth gap widened.
Because they gave tax cuts to the wealthy. Try giving more money to really poor people - they will spend every penny of it just to survive!

[beardy]

Because they gave tax cuts to the wealthy. Try giving more money to really poor people - they will spend every penny of it just to survive!
I agree. The concept was that the more there was to spend, the greater the trickle down. But it didn't work.
Poor people will spend, but being poor they don't have much to spend.

[RexBanner]

I know this is pedantry to the extreme (and I apologise) but the IATA code for Virgin Atlantic is VS. VA is Virgin Australia. Kind of grates if people are trying to present otherwise “knowledgable” opinions.

[SilverFearn]

Completely and utterly wrong. I’m not UK resident but I pay some U.K. Tax via PAYE.

You only pay tax on the percentage of time spent working in the uk. If you live and work in Mongolia but have a company in the uk you would be personally liable to pay tax in Mongolia. You most likely wouldn't pay yourself via PAYE but via dividends. Your company would pay various taxes in the UK.