Calling the tower or a/g frequency even when flying above their airspace

[InTheAir]

I just wanted to get an idea from other flyers regarding this. There are some people who I fly with who would quite happily overfly certain aerodromes at 2100ft (100ft above the zone) and not make a single call, and there are others who even at 500ft above certain ATZs MUST make a call. I'd like to hear from others. In some cases, isn't just listening in enough?

[Chilli Monster]

I work at an airfield in Class 'G' airspace, with an ATZ (no class 'D' protection) and published Instrument approach procedures which involve a hold situated over the airfield which can be active up to FL65.

If you flew through my overhead without talking you would NOT be flavour of the month :mad:

The GA airfield I fly from (A/G service only) has an NDB on the airfield, which is used for IMC training (in VMC only of course). The initial level of the procedure when flown is 2400' QNH - 200 ft above the ATZ.

Still think it's a good idea to just 'listen'?

CM

[david.porter9]

I'm not really qualified to comment as I'm still learning, but it seems to annoy my instructor when we're doing circuits and somebody overflies us unannounced.

Due to controlled airspace above, there may only be a few hundred feet separation. Doesn't help my paranoia about mid-airs! :(

[Final 3 Greens]

Chilli

Say I'm flying VFR and you are providing your IFR traffic with separation.

Your in Class G - so its see and avoid for me and your problem for your IFR separation.

Sorry mate, but one of your colleagues made this quite clear in a posting last month.

Personally, I'd prefer for us to talk, but if you ATC guys aren't going to give us VFR boys avoiding action, whats in it for us? ;)

[Keef]

Most of my regular routes from "home" include crossing ATZs. The most usual is Stapleford (where LAM lives). I usually pass at 2300 feet, and always call them.

Not sure what to say, so I just report where I am, where I'm going, height, and "thought you'd want to know we're up here". Seems to work.

[Chilli Monster]

F3G

Take your point about the VFR and avoiding action - we can't give it. However, if you were to call you would get traffic information and possibly a suggested routeing which would enable you to route away from the IFR traffic and although standard separation would not be applicable at least it gives all concerned a fighting chance. That's got to be a lot easier than having an 'AIRPROX' filed, which would after a lot of paperwork only be classified as the say all 'conflict in the open FIR - category 'C''.

I accept you're under 'see and avoid', but give us the info that you're there and we will do the best we can whilst staying inside the rules of the airspace we work in. Class 'G' operation is a nightmare and at the end of the day you do the best you can with the information and equipment you have available.

Why do you think that of all the ATC units in class 'G' airspace only one is staffed by NATS? ;)

CM

[ATCbabe]

Final 3 Greens

if you ATC guys aren't going to give us VFR boys avoiding action, whats in it for us?

That is a terrible attitude to have!!:mad:

Whats in it for you is the fact that you will be prewarned against other traffic which makes flying for you a little bit safer!!! It still doesnt take away your "lookout" responsibility but surely every little bit helps?

As Chilli says its a lot easier than having an 'AIRPROX' filed, and makes everybodys job a bit easier.

And Chilli hats off to you, I certainly wouldn't wanna work class G all the time. Its way too scary!!!!:eek: I'll stick to my class D and surrounding E, although if only we could turn that into D too.......

Well a gal can dream cant she???:(

[Speedbird252]

It should be good airmanship to contact a field which you plan to, or are overflying. If you want to cross in the overhead at a similar altitude to the standard overhead joining height then you are foolish not to.

Its got nothing to do with who gets what with IFR and VFR, when you announce your intentions, you arent just advising the guy on the ground that you are there, you are telling every single aircraft on that frequency where you are. There maybe traffic joining in the overhead at a similar height to you, there may also be other traffic crossing in the overhead on a different heading that didnt announce his intentions.

Some GA airfields have a VOR etc at the airfield, such as Goodwood. That naturaly attracts crossing traffic using it for Navigation exercises.

Even if you are flying abeam, in the overhead or a mixture of the two, it takes 10 seconds to give your callsign, height and intentions, and you may just educate another 15 aircraft of that fact.

Good Airmanship is no accident,

Evening PPruNers

Speedy

[iainpoll]

Good point Speedbird, but I sometimes worry that in a busy circuit on a Saturday afternoon, when a 'gumbo' announces on the radio.......'errr err Stapleford err this is err G-errr Tango Charlie, a err err Cessna 152 from err... etc etc etc. You get the picture? In those circumstances I would rather know whats going on in the circuit around me:):eek: :eek: :eek:

[Speedbird252]

Yep, I agree, if its short and sharp its ok, if you get someone who has pressed the button long before thinking about what they want to say its a real pain in the ar$e, especially as you rightly say on a busy saturday afternoon, every man and his dog are in the circuit - you turn onto final and all the way down you just cant call it till your short final cos mr and mrs correct and the dog and cat are passing thru, and taking 20 seconds to say it.

I guess its a matter of luck most of the time, where people are in the circuit etc.

Any suggestions? I not sure how big a problem PPL`s find this on a busy day or how there particular airfield deals with it.

Regards all,

Speedy

[READY MESSAGE]

Well spoken Speedbird.

Airmanship, airmanship, airmanship.......

Remember the old BT advert......it's good to talk......

Announcing your intention to overfly an overhead is prudent to flight safety. The point about instrument procedures has already been touched on, Stapleford was the example - I have seen people fly overhead Cranfield above the ATZ only to fly straight through the published holding procedure. During this Cranfield ATC were constantly calling the unidentified a/c with no reply, they weren't even listening to the radio of the airfield they were flying over!

What's the old addage? Safety is no accident.........

Regards ;)

[IanSeager]

Ah...Chilli...now I know where you are :-)

Ian

[Canadian Luscombe]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll stick to my class D and surrounding E, although if only we could turn that into D too.......
Well a gal can dream cant she???
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aerbabe - Talk about a terrible attitude! I hope you were just kidding.

The less class D expansion we have, the better.

Obviously I accept that control is desireable for some busy airspace; but any encroachment on currently uncontrolled airspace must be completely justified and not arbitrarily expropriated to build up the ATC empire. :( There is room in the sky for us little people, who often fly without transponders or radios. :)

To get back to the main post: "it all depends". If there is not much radio traffic, I usually call in, and ATC invariably appreciates the courtesy. If the frequency is busy, I keep off the air. I agree with Speedbird.

[BEagle]

Personally I would always call any aerodrome I'm going to be flying near to let them know who I am, where I am and what I'll be doing. It doesn't have to be a long, rambling call - just something like "Anytown Radio, this is G-****. PA28 from Somewhereville to Otherplace, will be passing 3 miles North West of your aerodrome in 2 minutes at 2500 on the Cotswold; will advise you when clear" Invariably the aerodrome will be glad for the call. Mark you, when I did the same at a small military aerodrome and was told "Do not enter the MATZ", I was somewhat cross. So they were told that we would be passing over the aerodrome at 3001' a.g.l.......but that was a few years ago, I'm a bit less stubborn these days!

The routes I use for PPL Skill Tests involve flight near other aerodromes in Class G airspace as a deliberate test of the pilot's airmanship.

[WorkingHard]

ATCBabe - Like others I do believe you are kidding in your quest for more controlled airspace. (I do hope so) I think it would be an absolutely splendid idea if airports had to pay "rent" on the volume of airspace they want for their own control. how much would then be relinquished in a hurry and suddenly become open FIR?
We can all think of examples but what is your worst one?

[FlyingForFun]

I agree - always best to talk to people if you're flying near their airspace.

Flying north from White Waltham often takes me very close to Booker's ATZ. Even if I'm going to be a mile or two outside their zone, always call them to advise them where I am. Usually ATC will tell me something along the lines of "caution, airfield is very busy, runway XX is in use and there's intensive gliding." Not particularly helpful to me, and I don't know if the controllers gain any benefit from me calling them or not. But I know that pilots who are joining or leaving the airfield benefit from it, since I'll be flying in the same airspace as them, probably at a similar altitude - I'm certain that talking to Wycombe, and to other pilots on frequency, is the best thing to do.

I also recall a time, shortly after I got my PPL, when I was flying around Essex. Became slightly uncertain of my position, but a quick check with the chart showed that I could fly to the VOR at Stapleford. I didn't engage my brain, flew direct to the VOR at an altitude of not-very-high, and straight over the top of the circuit, without talking to anyone. :eek: Not something I plan on ever doing again!

FFF
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PS - Canadian Luscombe, you might want to amend your post to address ATCBabe as ATCBabe, and not AerBabe, before either of them notices. Not that either of them would mind, I'm sure...

[Capt BK]

I will always make the call. Its good airmanship and polite. If it's short and accurate it does no harm at all and may just save a mid-air or brown trousers!

[ATCbabe]

Canadian Luscombe


As FFF has said it was me that wanted more class D around my airfield, not aerbabe ( much as she knows I lurve her!!;) )

any encroachment on currently uncontrolled airspace must be completely justified

Class E airspace is controlled airspace!!:p The airfield that I work at is certainly getting much busier and is the sixth busiest in the uk (well if all the published figures are correct!).

Class D further round on our descent paths would make life so much easier and indeed that little bit safer. I could tell you stories of VFR traffic at 3000ft on 10 mile finals, just where we turn IFR traffic on the llz at that height. Makes it worse when they are orbiting in the area and not speaking to you!!:mad: The amount of delay this can coz is unbelievable.

You are right that light VFR traffic has a place, everyone has got to start and learn somewhere. However what joy there can be in watching out and avoiding B767s, etc when passing so close to busy airfields and not talking eludes me:confused:

[sennadog]

You must talk, simple as that. It lets other aircraft know you are in the vicinity and ATC (or whatever) know you are about.

Redhill is a good example. Although I can't see anyone wanting to fly directly overhead unless they are joining the circuit there is a "corridor" just to the North in between Redhill and Biggin which many aircraft use going East - West - East and it's got to be good airmanship to announce your presence.

[Final 3 Greens]

Chilli

I was just winding ATCBabe up (seemed to work too!)

Wouldn't come anywhere near your overhead without talking to you first, so don't worry. As I learned at Southend, I understand the controllers perspective in working an active hold and ILS in open airspace.

ATCBabe - sorry couldn't resist!

:)

[propjockey]

EGPK certainly encourage it!

I heard someone call into Prestwick Tower on Saturday - just passing thru. ATC said 'thanks for calling - gave him some traffic info and QNH/QFE info'. Said info was ack'd and thanked for and ATC replied - 'have a good afternoon and thanks for calling in'

great attitude and v helpful ATC at EGPK (pretty standard at P'wick) Hey gets my vote!

Thanks ATC guys n gals - watched a programme on Discovery Wings ref ATC - stressful job! One controller explained how she accidentall merged two plots and thankfully all survived - she told how it shook her up for over a year after WOW!

My instructor said 'if in doubt give em a call' they will soon tell you if they are busy!

regards

[big.al]

Chilli Monster et al

A word of advice from your experience then, please.

Let's say I'm flying from Netherthorpe, south-east, and will be passing around 4 miles south of Gamston ATZ. Having left EGNF I would want LARS from Waddington, and would also soon have to contact them for permission to cross the Cranwell/Barkston Heath CMATZ.

I'm not intending to stray into Gamston's ATZ but would consider it good practice to let them know where I am. On the other hand, I don't want to start talking to Waddington, then switch to Gamston, and then switch back to Waddington, so if I'm going to speak to Gamston at all, I'd probably not request LARS from Waddington until well past Gamston.

This is a real potential scenario, as I plan to fly EGNF to Norwich, via Fenland.

Would you suggest that as long as Waddington have me on radar and I don't stray into Gamston ATZ, that Gamston need not know I'm there? Seems discourteous to me, but from ATC point of view, what is the preference?

Thanks!

[englishal]

I'm all for more class D.....BUT class D with an upper limit and without overlaying Class A.

Take Bournemouth and Southampton, you have bournemouth class D up to 2000' then Solent on top of that and finally class A above this. This leaves nowhere for VFR pilots to go other than through the Class D, which is fine, unless you don't get clearance. However, the US model of things has class C airspace, generally up to 4000' above airport elevation, 10nm radius, possibly with a few lugs. This is used to contain the instrument procedures for the particular airport, so protecting IFR traffic from VFR traffic. However, it allows the VFR pilot to transit overhead, without danger to IFR traffic arriving and leaving, without any contact with ATC(ie if they are too busy). If the VFR pilot wants to transit through the class C then a clearance and radar service is provided. Same goes for US class B airspace. Low alt airways in the US are class E, allowing VFR traffic to use them or not.


..um what was the question...oh yea, chat with ATC ;)

Cheers
EA:)

[Whirlybird]

What about A/G airfields? Way back when I used to fly from Welshpool, the A/G operator said she was busy enough, without aircraft passing overhead at 3000ft+ clogging up the frequency telling her about it. And I seem to remember that at Sleap, there was a notice in the tower telling A/G operators that they should just tell people the circuit was active and to keep a good lookout. And I can do that without being told.

I'd probably tell an airfield if I was passing overhead (I rarely do that), but if the frequency was busy and I was well above them in good wx, I might not. But passing close to them? Depends on circumstances, and I'm not sure that absolute rules about this are even a good idea.

[Bouncy Landing]

Something that I don't think has been mentioned is the response of the recipient ATCers and the effect of this on our likliehood to call them "next time passing". Recently I've received responses raqnging from warm and appreciative (Wycombe), to gruff (begins with an "E" and ends with a "tree"), to being totally ignored (Harlow International aka Stanstead) when passing close and making a "courtesy call".

Subsequent trips passing close by caused me to ignore Stanstead (I was just outside their airspace but I hope it concentrated their minds for a few minutes), marginally avoid E***tree ATZ, and call Wycombe... so guys and gals on the ground its a two way thing - be nice to us and we'll help you.

As for Luton & Stanstead if you want all that airspace please at least share it when you can and also give us some ATC service - it helps us both. A few PPLs could always program your CTR boundaries plus say a 800m buffer into their GPSs and go flying around your zones..... legal and I'm sure it would add "interest" to your shift! I've an old half mill South of England chart dating back to '82 and the increased restrictions are depressing.....

I've almost always had an excellent exchange with whatever ATC I've spoken to, from Heathrow Radar down to Bloggs Farms grass strip; but it does take two to tango.

[ppl(a)]

Based at Elstree, (yeah, yeah, much moaning agreed with!) -quite common to pass overhead Stapleford.

Agree with Keef that calling is always a good idea, but more so than ever at a field like Stapleford which has a navaid (LAM VOR) actually on the field.

Maybe lessened slightly by RNAV and GPS, but VORs still tend to be like a honeypot to a GA passing directly overhead. Especially whe vertically limited by the TMA as well, Stapleford has got to be a classic example of where it MUST make sense to call, even if outside / above the ATZ.

[Evo7]

I was wondering yesterday if I should talk to Solent when I was passing just under the northern end of their Class-D by New Arlesford (D from 2500' to FL55), just to let them know that I knew where I was. I decided that it wasn't necessary as I was talking to Farnborough (and squawking a Farnborough code with mode-C), but if I was pottering about squawking 7000 would such a call be appreciated? Or am I better off just keeping quiet?

[Chilli Monster]

big.al

Call Wadd, they'll ident you. If they think you're getting a bit close to Gamston horizontally and vertically they'll tell you to keep the squawk, give Gamston a call and then come back to them when you're ready. Waddington are very acomodating in that respect (I fly out of Nottingham, even though I work a lot further south so you're getting more personal experience than usual here :D)

Whirly

I think the best thing as far as A/G airfields is concerned is try and produce a mental picture by looking at the map and seeing what they've got in the way of facilities, and how they are situated. 3000' over the top of them I would say listening out is sufficient but look at the map - how high are they? 3000' QNH over Leicester or Compton Abbas is worth a call. 3000' QNH over somewhere a lot lower then listen and look out.

ppl(a)

Couldn't agree more with regards to the likes of Stapleford - 250' between top of ATZ and London TMA it's not healthy not to talk

F3G

Nothing wrong with a good wind up :D

CM

[ATCbabe]

Final 3 Greens,


http://216.40.241.68/otn/angry/zx11pissed.gif