Removal of navaids at Fairoaks, EGTF.

[ShyTorque]

I received an email today to direct me to the NATS AIS website:
NATS | AIS - Home (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php%3Foption=com_nats_vfr&Itemid=367.html#02602)

I was quite surprised to note that the NDB 'FOS 348' and TDME 109.85 become non-functional on 23/04/20. This can't be good news.....is it a cost cutting measure, or something worse?

[TCAS FAN]

I received an email today to direct me to the NATS AIS website:
NATS | AIS - Home (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php%3Foption=com_nats_vfr&Itemid=367.html#02602)

I was quite surprised to note that the NDB 'FOS 348' and TDME 109.85 become non-functional on 23/04/20. This can't be good news.....is it a cost cutting measure, or something worse?

Could also be related to the nausea inducing implementation of the new EU Regulation 2017/373. The paperwork involved is mind numbing. Take out navaids and it is a fraction of what is required for an AFIS Unit.

That apart how many pilots will tell you “I’ve got GPS, who needs navaids?”

[aterpster]

I received an email today to direct me to the NATS AIS website:
NATS | AIS - Home (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php%3Foption=com_nats_vfr&Itemid=367.html#02602)

I was quite surprised to note that the NDB 'FOS 348' and TDME 109.85 become non-functional on 23/04/20. This can't be good news.....is it a cost cutting measure, or something worse?
The FAA is progressing in shutting down many VORs in the U.S. Been big news in the U.S. aviation community for several years now.

[ShyTorque]

......
That apart how many pilots will tell you “I’ve got GPS, who needs navaids?”

You might be right. However, having earned my early crust flying a 7,000 kg aircraft without any navaids fitted other than a single VOR/DME (H.M. didn't even provide a heading bug on the CDI), these days I personally like to take full advantage of whatever the system provides and I routinely dial up whatever is available. Unfortunately, the UK is becoming forever less well provided for in this respect than it was forty odd years ago. Same with radar coverage. :(

[DaveReidUK]

The NATS viewpoint: Has GPS killed off the VOR? (https://nats.aero/blog/2015/05/has-gps-killed-off-the-vor/)

[ShyTorque]

Dave, I consider that a separate issue because neither of the navaids I referred to are actually "standalone" VORs. My concern here is about the long term future of EGTF itself. Is this the beginning of the end?

[ATC Watcher]

many pilots will tell you “I’ve got GPS, who needs navaids?”
Not everyone , especially those that have been affected in areas with GPS outages or jamming . Carrying good old paper map/Charts, especially in GA is a good idea nowadays .
As to the removal of NDBs and VORs it is a long established pan European plan , and nothing to do with particular airports future..

[chevvron]

Dave, I consider that a separate issue because neither of the navaids I referred to are actually "standalone" VORs. My concern here is about the long term future of EGTF itself. Is this the beginning of the end?
The planning application for housing on the airfield which was to be decided in March has been 'temporarily' withdrawn pending a re think by the applicant.

[zed3]

So, if the GPS goes down, for example due to conflict or jamming, there is no back up. At least VOR/DME is terrestrial and under control. This is something I've been thinking about for a few years. Must be financial and budget balancing. Very misjudged in my opinion.

[Denti]

So, if the GPS goes down, for example due to conflict or jamming, there is no back up. At least VOR/DME is terrestrial and under control. This is something I've been thinking about for a few years. Must be financial and budget balancing. Very misjudged in my opinion.

Well, there is GPS, Galileo, Baidu and GLONASS. As far as i am aware at least GPS and Galileo are compatible with each other for "normal" precision. However, most airliner do only use GPS so far which is of course a result of the extremely long development cycles. Most of us carry a smartphone around, and they can use all four systems and have been able to do so for the last 5 years already. And of course our workplaces (airplanes) usually carry 2 or 3 inertial systems around, even if we lose both GPS and nav aid updating that allows quite a bit of navigation precision for a significant time.

That said, as far as i know VOR and NDBs are scheduled to be decommissioned, DME on the other hand is not, as it is a pretty nifty backup system that is both ground based and more precise than VOR or NDBs.

[ShyTorque]

The planning application for housing on the airfield which was to be decided in March has been 'temporarily' withdrawn pending a re think by the applicant.

Thanks; I’m very glad to hear that!

[fantom]

Get used to it; they'll all be gone soon.

[KRviator]

CThat apart how many pilots will tell you “I’ve got GPS, who needs navaids?”Pretty much every pilot in Australia these days, since AirServices Australia, the ANSP down under, switched off the vast majority of NDB's and VOR's a few years ago. Now, if you have a C145/6 GPS, that's all you need to blast off into the wild blue yonder, with no alternate (due to Navaids)...

[pineridge]

Fairoaks

I instructed at Fairoaks in the seventies (Dougie Arnold era). Vor/Dme wtf!!

[Wycombe]

Fairoaks, I instructed at Fairoaks in the seventies (Dougie Arnold era). Vor/Dme wtf!!

It's an NDB and DME at Fairoaks. No associated (official) procedures as far as I know.

[Loose rivets]

LUXURY! I recall doing a VDF approach at NWI in a DC3. It was part of my IR renewal and had a published plate. For QDMs it was easy, but QDR, I used to imagine a huge needle on a n-mile compass rose surrounding the field. The reciprocal mind's eye angle was miles away.

[jmmoric]

https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/gnss-interference/

Could be either a reason to keep the "old stuff", as well as a reason to scrap it?

[ShyTorque]

Precisely. We are forever being encouraged on one hand by the Authority to plan an alternative option for a navigation aid outage, but on the other hand, they take away that other option.

[chevvron]

It's an NDB and DME at Fairoaks. No associated (official) procedures as far as I know.
NOTAM says withdrawn wef 20 Jan 20.
No procedures based on NDB/DME; OCK VOR/DME is only a short distance away anyway.

[Not Long Now]

"OCK VOR/DME is only a short distance away anyway." but for how long? The aim is to 'rationalise' the DVORs in the UK, and many, including OCK, are well on the way to full removal from any AIP dependency.

[ShyTorque]

"OCK VOR/DME is only a short distance away anyway." but for how long? The aim is to 'rationalise' the DVORs in the UK, and many, including OCK, are well on the way to full removal from any AIP dependency.

I suppose avoiding the new, immediately adjacent Farnborough airspace would be far too easy if folk actually had working navaids in the area. It's much more sporting without them.

Maybe it's just a job creation scheme for the CAA enforcement branch... :rolleyes:

[ATC Watcher]

https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/gnss-interference/

Could be either a reason to keep the "old stuff", as well as a reason to scrap it?
Mitigation will no be by keeping NDBs and VORs, but rather via multimode receivers , (i.e. Glonass, Galileo, BeiDou etc..) .

[chevvron]

According to my sources, the NDB/DME was getting very unreliable having been installed over 30 years ago and they were increasingly expensive to maintain, so a survey of local pilots was carried out and it was found very few pilots actually used them so the decision was taken to withdraw them.