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Removal of navaids at Fairoaks, EGTF.

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Removal of navaids at Fairoaks, EGTF.

Old 2nd Mar 2020, 10:15
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Removal of navaids at Fairoaks, EGTF.

I received an email today to direct me to the NATS AIS website:
NATS | AIS - Home

I was quite surprised to note that the NDB 'FOS 348' and TDME 109.85 become non-functional on 23/04/20. This can't be good news.....is it a cost cutting measure, or something worse?
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Old 2nd Mar 2020, 11:32
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque View Post
I received an email today to direct me to the NATS AIS website:
NATS | AIS - Home

I was quite surprised to note that the NDB 'FOS 348' and TDME 109.85 become non-functional on 23/04/20. This can't be good news.....is it a cost cutting measure, or something worse?
Could also be related to the nausea inducing implementation of the new EU Regulation 2017/373. The paperwork involved is mind numbing. Take out navaids and it is a fraction of what is required for an AFIS Unit.

That apart how many pilots will tell you Ive got GPS, who needs navaids?
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Old 2nd Mar 2020, 13:33
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque View Post
I received an email today to direct me to the NATS AIS website:
NATS | AIS - Home

I was quite surprised to note that the NDB 'FOS 348' and TDME 109.85 become non-functional on 23/04/20. This can't be good news.....is it a cost cutting measure, or something worse?
The FAA is progressing in shutting down many VORs in the U.S. Been big news in the U.S. aviation community for several years now.
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Old 2nd Mar 2020, 13:34
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Originally Posted by TCAS FAN View Post
......
That apart how many pilots will tell you “I’ve got GPS, who needs navaids?”
You might be right. However, having earned my early crust flying a 7,000 kg aircraft without any navaids fitted other than a single VOR/DME (H.M. didn't even provide a heading bug on the CDI), these days I personally like to take full advantage of whatever the system provides and I routinely dial up whatever is available. Unfortunately, the UK is becoming forever less well provided for in this respect than it was forty odd years ago. Same with radar coverage.
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Old 2nd Mar 2020, 14:17
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The NATS viewpoint: Has GPS killed off the VOR?
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Old 2nd Mar 2020, 14:27
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Dave, I consider that a separate issue because neither of the navaids I referred to are actually "standalone" VORs. My concern here is about the long term future of EGTF itself. Is this the beginning of the end?
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Old 2nd Mar 2020, 15:45
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many pilots will tell you “I’ve got GPS, who needs navaids?”
Not everyone , especially those that have been affected in areas with GPS outages or jamming . Carrying good old paper map/Charts, especially in GA is a good idea nowadays .
As to the removal of NDBs and VORs it is a long established pan European plan , and nothing to do with particular airports future..
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Old 2nd Mar 2020, 16:01
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque View Post
Dave, I consider that a separate issue because neither of the navaids I referred to are actually "standalone" VORs. My concern here is about the long term future of EGTF itself. Is this the beginning of the end?
The planning application for housing on the airfield which was to be decided in March has been 'temporarily' withdrawn pending a re think by the applicant.
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Old 2nd Mar 2020, 17:09
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So, if the GPS goes down, for example due to conflict or jamming, there is no back up. At least VOR/DME is terrestrial and under control. This is something I've been thinking about for a few years. Must be financial and budget balancing. Very misjudged in my opinion.
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Old 2nd Mar 2020, 17:48
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Originally Posted by zed3 View Post
So, if the GPS goes down, for example due to conflict or jamming, there is no back up. At least VOR/DME is terrestrial and under control. This is something I've been thinking about for a few years. Must be financial and budget balancing. Very misjudged in my opinion.
Well, there is GPS, Galileo, Baidu and GLONASS. As far as i am aware at least GPS and Galileo are compatible with each other for "normal" precision. However, most airliner do only use GPS so far which is of course a result of the extremely long development cycles. Most of us carry a smartphone around, and they can use all four systems and have been able to do so for the last 5 years already. And of course our workplaces (airplanes) usually carry 2 or 3 inertial systems around, even if we lose both GPS and nav aid updating that allows quite a bit of navigation precision for a significant time.

That said, as far as i know VOR and NDBs are scheduled to be decommissioned, DME on the other hand is not, as it is a pretty nifty backup system that is both ground based and more precise than VOR or NDBs.

Last edited by Denti; 2nd Mar 2020 at 23:39.
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Old 2nd Mar 2020, 17:57
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Originally Posted by chevvron View Post
The planning application for housing on the airfield which was to be decided in March has been 'temporarily' withdrawn pending a re think by the applicant.
Thanks; Im very glad to hear that!
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Old 2nd Mar 2020, 18:06
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Get used to it; they'll all be gone soon.
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Old 2nd Mar 2020, 19:33
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Originally Posted by TCAS FAN View Post
CThat apart how many pilots will tell you Ive got GPS, who needs navaids?
Pretty much every pilot in Australia these days, since AirServices Australia, the ANSP down under, switched off the vast majority of NDB's and VOR's a few years ago. Now, if you have a C145/6 GPS, that's all you need to blast off into the wild blue yonder, with no alternate (due to Navaids)...
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Old 2nd Mar 2020, 19:40
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Fairoaks

I instructed at Fairoaks in the seventies (Dougie Arnold era). Vor/Dme wtf!!
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Old 2nd Mar 2020, 19:51
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Fairoaks, I instructed at Fairoaks in the seventies (Dougie Arnold era). Vor/Dme wtf!!
It's an NDB and DME at Fairoaks. No associated (official) procedures as far as I know.
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Old 2nd Mar 2020, 23:17
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LUXURY! I recall doing a VDF approach at NWI in a DC3. It was part of my IR renewal and had a published plate. For QDMs it was easy, but QDR, I used to imagine a huge needle on a n-mile compass rose surrounding the field. The reciprocal mind's eye angle was miles away.
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Old 3rd Mar 2020, 07:15
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https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/gnss-interference/

Could be either a reason to keep the "old stuff", as well as a reason to scrap it?
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Old 3rd Mar 2020, 09:21
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Precisely. We are forever being encouraged on one hand by the Authority to plan an alternative option for a navigation aid outage, but on the other hand, they take away that other option.
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Old 4th Mar 2020, 10:28
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Originally Posted by Wycombe View Post
It's an NDB and DME at Fairoaks. No associated (official) procedures as far as I know.
NOTAM says withdrawn wef 20 Jan 20.
No procedures based on NDB/DME; OCK VOR/DME is only a short distance away anyway.

Last edited by chevvron; 4th Mar 2020 at 10:52.
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Old 4th Mar 2020, 14:28
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"OCK VOR/DME is only a short distance away anyway." but for how long? The aim is to 'rationalise' the DVORs in the UK, and many, including OCK, are well on the way to full removal from any AIP dependency.
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