VA pilots worried about employment 2021

[Berealgetreal]

From Financial Review.

Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce has never been one to waste a crisis. And since the novel coronavirus completely shuttered the travel industry, you’d expect an airline boss to feel a little jumpy.

Nevertheless, Joyce’s performance on Friday morning television – in which he warned the Morrison government against bailing out “the badly managed companies which have been badly managed for 10 years”, i.e. Virgin Australia – was exceptionally inelegant.

He was overreacting to a comment piece in that day’s The Australian which imagined that “some companies may end up having to be nationalised, if even only temporarily” and that “Virgin could be one example” because “there is no way [the government] will allow Australia to return to a virtual single-carrier environment in a post-virus world”.

Joyce’s initial comments on Sky – that Canberra “can’t pick winners and losers; whatever aid is given to one particular company … has to be given to everybody in that sector” – would’ve sufficed perfectly. But Joyce’s shortcoming has always been in craving a needless fight.

On a conference call with prorogued Qantas employees later the same day, their CEO reportedly urged them (with their abrupt surfeit of spare time) to petition their federal MPs against this supposed bailout of Virgin.


Qantas CEO Alan Joyce is now campaigning against a Virgin bailout. Renee Nowytarger
It’s a low-quality way for the national carrier to conduct itself in the tumult of the worst health and economic crisis Australia has ever seen. Such is Joyce’s bloodthirst for his competitor’s death rattle.

For lucrative reasons. After the collapse of Ansett in 2001, Qantas CEO Geoff Dixon creamed off $4.4 billion in net profits (after tax) in seven years as a virtual monopoly (even despite the highest oil prices in history), until Joyce replaced him in 2008.

Short memory

By Joyce’s seventh year, he’d delivered $2.6 billion of accumulated losses and was begging Tony Abbott to pick winners and losers by extending him a $3 billion loan guarantee. And after 11 years, Joyce has accumulated net profits of only $1.75 billion – a factoid easy to forget when you see his remuneration ($92 million and counting), but crucial to remember when he critiques other companies “which have been badly managed for 10 years”.

Six years since he asked the federal government to save him, Joyce now reckons that “when good companies have managed their position very well, the government should let them manage their way through this”.

His sudden aversion to any Commonwealth assistance is astonishing but welcome. Qantas could scarcely accept public cash only five months since his chairman Richard Goyder boasted that “at the end of this latest buyback, we’ll have bought back almost one-third of our shares since 2015 – the most of any company in the ASX All Ordinaries”.

Yep, that’s $3.2 billion of excess cash (on top of dividends) it returned to shareholders, or almost how much passenger revenue Qantas will suddenly forgo this March, April and May. Handing it over (while reducing its own share count) massively juiced the airline’s share price and total shareholder returns, upon which Joyce’s bonuses are explicitly calculated. Thus management is incentivised not to save cash for a rainy day – nor, indeed, to reinvest profits productively, as Treasurer Josh Frydenberg pleaded in August.

It's marvellous news that Qantas still has “plenty of bandwidth to last a very, very long time” through the corona-crisis. And we’d be the last to pretend that Virgin’s relative financial infirmity is anything but its own doing. Joyce can be forgiven his lapse of judgment in these times of cognitive overload, but let's not shoehorn post-crisis competition policy into his tactical manoeuvrings for advantage.

[Paragraph377]

i have to agree with what your saying, even as an employee I don’t agree with taxpayers propping up VA. Why should they VA is totally stuffed financially - this is not the employees doing, how is it not trading insolvent right now?

The mis management has been guided by the board and chairwoman. Anyone whom disagreed divested their share holdings (Air NZ) or was promptly shown the door (JT). The current chairwoman is silent.

Do tell how It can survive any length of time. When 5.7billion came in revenue they still managed to “burn” effectively 1 million a week.

The Naysayers continued to tell us, nah it’s all good we have 1 billion in cash.
You’ll burn that 960million $ AUD pretty quick on leases and other commitments/debt I assume are written in USD.

The rot continues today Non EBA staff only being asked to take one month LWOP at “their”leisure over the next 6months, whilst frontline staff are stood down.

That’s great I’m glad the social team has been “stood up”
FFS cupcakes all round Yeahhhhhh it’s international women’s day, yup that’s what’s important when we are drowning throw us another bull**** distraction to get behind.

The icing on the cake is QQ still flying wet leases with with VA crew and airframes grounded.

Who cares about Joyce, save your own company.
Wow. And I got caned just a few days ago for highlighting the more than 10 years of mismanagement that has been the main reason Virgin is a basket case, well before COVID-19 arrived. The Board should be walked out the door immediately for their pathetic support for successive inept CEO’s and CFO’s. But sadly it is too late anyway.

[-41]

Yes we all saw that. Can only speak for myself, I respect your freedom to post on an anonymous forum.

I’m not going to apologise for the behaviour of those whom berated you, your a big boy.

[Renton Field]

Wow indeed.If you think any of us needed you to highlight said mismanagement....well,dead wrong about that for a start.Share price falls we can check ourselves,if we need to.
What got you caned was your obvious enjoyment of the stress the staff at VA are under,across all job descriptions,including aircrew,which given your stated history,is little hard to understand.
But,go ahead...knock yourself out,your completely entitled to have your say,whatever the cost.

[wheels_down]

I think the whole VA and JB slamming has been done to death now. We get it, it was revenge and ego. They are not the only mismanaged business around. They are undergoing a transformation from misjudgment across many categories. You don’t start to see any form of stability until a 5 years into a transformation. They are not far out of the first year.

Moving forward, it’s clear a Virgin and Qantas Mark 2 will look differently. Both will have cash reserves wipes. The government will clearly offer loans to both.

The A330s probably won’t return with Virgin. The 747 clearly either with QF.

[Foxxster]

Queensland border now also closed.

[longjohn]

Whilst I agree with the Fin article, Alan does love a fight, he is being insensitive and probably should step back, his logic is sound.

To argue that a failing / weak business should be given life support to the disadvantage of previously healthy businesses is unfair, it picks favourites and would be tantamount to ‘profiteering from a crisis’ in a warped way.

Moreover, could the Australian Government afford such an approach? What if we were talking about Coles with 100,000 staff vs. Woolies?

Affordable consistency and fairness should be the story.

[Double_Clutch]

Do you want a hug Paragraph337?
I get sooo excited when I see such informative posts from yourself..... I just want to reach out and give you a cuddle!

[Paragraph377]

Do you want a hug Paragraph337?
I get sooo excited when I see such informative posts from yourself..... I just want to reach out and give you a cuddle!
Thanks, that would be wonderful.....I too enjoy your posts, even though they are meaningless and are filled with unrealistic hopes and dreams! But hey, each person faces reality in their own special way I guess.
Kia Ora

[longjohn]

Keep it to the social distancing guidelines......

[non_state_actor]

Alliance flying has been stopped. From the AQZ annoucement:

Alliance Aviation Services Limited (ASX Code: AQZ) TRADING UPDATE AND COVID-19 REPONSE NO. 2 Virgin Australia (VA) Wet Lease AgreementIn response to the unprecedented changes to domestic airline operations required by Commonwealth, State and Territory Governments, VA has approached Alliance Aviation Services Limited (The “Company” or “Alliance”) to request a suspension of services provided under the existing Wet Lease Agreement.VA has confirmed the last of the services to be operated prior to the suspension will be as of close of operations on Tuesday, 24th March 2020. Services impacted will be all from Brisbane to the following destinations:
•Alice Springs•Cloncurry•Emerald•Mount Isa•Port Moresby•Rockhampton. Details of schedule changes affecting currently booked passengers will be provided directly from VA to their passengers.The impact of this suspension of services will be to reduce block hours by 4,500 on an annualised basis for the period of the suspension. The terms relating to the suspension of the agreement are currently being negotiated between VA and Alliance. Alliance is currently reviewing the impact of this reduction on operational staff and where appropriate the Company’s various leave provisions will be enacted where it is determined there are surplus staff. Regular Public Transport (RPT)Given the requirements of the various governments on “Non-Essential Travel”, continued operations of RPT services from Brisbane to Bundaberg, Gladstone and Port Macquarie will be reviewed in detail over the next few days and a further ASX announcement released once the Company has been provided with a clearer understanding of the requests of Government.The Company owes its very existence to regional Australia and any decisions taken to reduce services under the current circumstances will not be taken lightly

[-41]

Too late. Won’t matter after tomorrow.

[Rashid Bacon]

Yes - and what’s on tomorrow ?

[Renton Field]

Hmmm.An idiot ay?
What would you call some one who posts multiple speculatory comments about an airline’s future,and possible demise,on a pilots website,while plainly enjoying the process,at an extremely stressful time for all its employees,then,when a couple of people finally say ‘Steady on..’,uses some bulls**t caveat like,’best of luck to the pilot group’ to excuse their own behaviour?
My ‘trust’ is in the operational people in my organisation and the machines I operate,the rest I leave to the Masters of the Universe.
I’ve met a few crew from Air NZ over the years,pilots and engineers,and found them all great ​​​​​people and exceptional operators.Any personal opinion I might or might not have about how Air NZ might have been managed,however uninformed,hasn’t changed that,despite your own efforts.
And maybe if you’d spent a bit more time in the private sector,without the safety net of a government job,and had a company or two disappear from underneath you,you might have a little more insight into what’s happening on the operational side of a company under pressure.......bru.

[-41]

Yes - and what’s on tomorrow ?

The grounding of 73 VA/VAI from i'm guessing 27th March - (hope im wrong please be wrong)

[PoppaJo]

It has pretty much died off today around the traps. Not VA, but I had 20 up to Sydney and 30 back. Spoke to another guy flying for the other lot and he had 10 up to Sydney and 12 back.

One of my flights tomorrow to another city has 9 people. The return I can’t even count on one hand. Tomorrow I assume will be my last day at work for quite a while.

[RFN]

You’re lucky, my last day was a week ago!!

[lucille]

Difficult times for all. But they will get better, as they always do. I wish all of you much strength and resilience.

For what it’s worth, that old chestnut of a fake Latin motto :”Nil Carborundum Bastardum” has always brought a smile to my face in difficult times and given me much needed resilience.

[Ragnor]

It has pretty much died off today around the traps. Not VA, but I had 20 up to Sydney and 30 back. Spoke to another guy flying for the other lot and he had 10 up to Sydney and 12 back.

One of my flights tomorrow to another city has 9 people. The return I can’t even count on one hand. Tomorrow I assume will be my last day at work for quite a while.

interesting, We had loads of over 100 yesterday in and out of Sydney.

[VH-ABC]

Every flight out of Gold Coast to Sydney is full today. Only 7 flights though, and 3 have already been cancelled.

[Ragnor]

Ppl on the rush home, I have 170 and 190 today. Although this could be my last day flying for a long time if not indefinitely.

[Buster Hyman]

Queensland border now also closed.
Permanently? :D

[SOPS]

Just announced Virgin standing down 8000 people. Good luck all.

[No Idea Either]

All flying except aircraft movements gone till end of a June:rolleyes::eek:

update: flying reduced to 90%, serious consolidation amongst the group. Good luck everyone.

[Rashid Bacon]

It's very unpalatable, but this may well save Virgin.

Permanently get rid of Tiger, downsize aircraft and staff to a core that can allow a break even operation when it all comes back after COVID (and it will).

Good luck to all.

[lc_461]

From the ASX this AM:
* Capacity reduction 90%. 125 aircraft grounded until mid June
* Tiger grounded immediately.
* 8000 staff stood down.
* Closure of NZ pilot and cabin crew base, Tiger MEL pilot base.

[wheels_down]

So all Tiger and NZ pilots are being offered redundancies. Is that how that is to be interpreted? And everyone else is just being stood down.

[Rashid Bacon]

Today's ASX notice says (in part):

“We plan to return Tigerair Australia and Virgin Australia to the skies as soon as its viable to do so, however I am mindful that how we operate today may look different when we get to the other side of this crisis......"

[Vindiesel]

QAN is in a much stronger position than VAH because of its much higher level of fleet owned versus fleet leased. QAN owns its 14 787s (11 delivered) and based on today's announcements, looks to be able to raise more than $2b if required againast those 14 787s on favourable terms, while VAH can't do the same with its much higher proprotion of leased aircraft, which presumably it must keep paying leases on even while drawing no revenue? I believe VAH only owns 4 of its B777s and leases all of the A330s and ATRs and around half its B737s.

[Berealgetreal]

Turns out closing borders 2 months too late doesn’t work out too well for domestic travel or the economy as a whole.

The Government knew this was coming and buried their head in the sand putting lives at risk, closing companies and putting people out of work.

The other night I was shown a clip of the prime minister saying “stop it” in reference to people hoarding. While I don’t condone hoarding what do you expect people to do given the pathetic speed and measures put in place?

You have a live real life example of a first world country with a high end medical system being absolutely crippled and yet you standby with slow soft measures when time and discipline are the key to the battle.

Can we get someone Left/Right/Centre with a goddamned backbone to run this country at any stage? They should be hung for their inaction.

Absolute disgrace.

[Turnleft080]

All leasing companies have to come to the party and suck it up. i.e. renegotiated. Every industry is being cut what makes them so special.

[Australopithecus]

I agree wholeheartedly with the need for hard measures right now, Like today. Actually, like early January. Politicians are still trying to look measured and wise. They instead need to set the tone, order people indoors, empower the police, and armed forces if required, to immediately detain offenders. Suspend habeas corpus.

Instead we are going to prolong this event until 100 more people die, another week is lost and everyone, including thectreasury, is flat broke.

That idiot Trump is putting America on a path to disaster and Scumo is going to wimp us into the same trajectory until it is too late.

Maybe he thinks his third-rate marketing skills will be enough to convince people not to get sick? Leadership...where the bloody hell are you?

[Icarus2001]

to immediately detain offenders. They cannot as they would very quickly run out of cells. That is why fines apply under the Public Health Act.

[Australopithecus]

**** ‘em. Put them out in the desert. If this virus was 10% fatal they’d shoot on sight.

[Des Dimona]

What's so difficult for people to understand that this is doubling every 3 days. The mathematics are fairly simple. There's been far too much of "I can't see it, so it's not real"

That useless wimp Scomo needs to act now (today) and lockdown the country for a minimum of 3 weeks. No ifs ands or buts. Use the military and police if required.

Do your bloody job Prime Minister and lead for once.:mad:

[The Bullwinkle]

I agree wholeheartedly with the need for hard measures right now, Like today. Actually, like early January. Politicians are still trying to look measured and wise. They instead need to set the tone, order people indoors, empower the police, and armed forces if required, to immediately detain offenders. Suspend habeas corpus.

Instead we are going to prolong this event until 100 more people die, another week is lost and everyone, including thectreasury, is flat broke.

That idiot Trump is putting America on a path to disaster and Scumo is going to wimp us into the same trajectory until it is too late.

Maybe he thinks his third-rate marketing skills will be enough to convince people not to get sick? Leadership...where the bloody hell are you?

"So far, the new coronavirus has led to more than 220,000 illnesses and more than 9,300 deaths worldwide. But that's nothing compared with the flu (https://www.livescience.com/54509-flu-influenza.html), also called influenza. In the U.S. alone, the flu has caused an estimated 36 million illnesses, 370,000 hospitalizations and 22,000 deaths this season, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)."

Just for some perspective.

[neville_nobody]

The amount of people calling for a essentially Police State/Military Dictatorship over something that is less fatal than the Flu is somewhat concerning.

[Buster Hyman]

Anyway, back on topic....

I thought it was interesting how Tiger will fly under Virgins AOC. Didn't they try that before? :hmm:

[Australopithecus]

Perspective? Really? FFS. This virus is at least twice as infectious as the flu, It is anywhere from 10 tp 40 times more deadly, smd there is no vaccine, no treatment, and no herd immunity. How’s that for ******* perspective?

[John Citizen]

The amount of people saying this is just another flu strain and that the mortality is lower is somewhat concerning.

Mortality rates for the flu is about 0.1%.

Mortality rate for covid-19 is about 4.4% at the moment.

[Berealgetreal]

They cannot as they would very quickly run out of cells. That is why fines apply under the Public Health Act.

56,000 people in Italy fined for not abiding by the rules. 40% ignoring the rules according to mobile phone data. I think it’s dropped dramatically last 7 days or so. People are actually getting pretty scared now.

[normanton]

The amount of people calling for a essentially Police State/Military Dictatorship over something that is less fatal than the Flu is somewhat concerning.
Almost as concerning as your logic.

4% fatality rates. Cases doubling every 3 days.

[ElZilcho]

People also need to stop focusing on the Mortality rate and take in the big picture. How many people with the Flu end up in ICU on a Ventilator? Off the top of my head, 15-20% of COVID-19 cases end up in Hospital, 5% being Critical. The Hospitals simply cannot cope with that (look at Italy). How many other people will suffer (or die) from non COVID-19 related illnesses/accidents simply because the Hospitals cannot cope with the volume of patients?

Secondly, those who do recover from being in ICU often have life long lung scaring which could potentially shorten their lives. A 40 Year old who survives COVID-19 today could die of the Flu years later due to Lung damage.

This is not just a bad Flu.

[flamingmoe]

Hey dickheads, read the title of the thread!! 😡

[Berealgetreal]

The amount of people saying this is just another flu strain and that the mortality is lower is somewhat concerning.

Mortality rates for the flu is about 0.1%.

Mortality rate for covid-19 is about 4.4% at the moment.

Pretty big number of Italian Doctors and Nurses dead from it.

[Berealgetreal]

"So far, the new coronavirus has led to more than 220,000 illnesses and more than 9,300 deaths worldwide. But that's nothing compared with the flu (https://www.livescience.com/54509-flu-influenza.html), also called influenza. In the U.S. alone, the flu has caused an estimated 36 million illnesses, 370,000 hospitalizations and 22,000 deaths this season, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)."

Just for some perspective.

Bit more perspective.
Covid-19 has been around for about 3 months how long has the flu been around?
Flu shot down at chemist right now.

[John Citizen]

Hey dickheads, read the title of the thread!!

And I wonder what is the primary cause about worries about employment? Climate change? Trump ? Mickey mouse ? Or covid 19 ? :confused:

[Superman1]

Enough of the debate around medical statistics....no one here likely has authority to speak on those matters apart from copy and pasting of articles

VA Group today have stood down 8000 workers so spare a thought for them.

My first question is it mentions the TT Melbourne base is now being closed? Does this mean stood down or permanently closed Not sure how TT could continue as I was under the impression SYD and BNE bases were recently permanently closed?

[Paragraph377]

So the remaining 2,000 staff, will that be
‘specialists’, those on ‘mates rates’, and Contractors? Obviously the CEO and the Board won’t be going anywhere, such important people.

[vee1-rotate]

I must say, I have no concerns about future employment for many of you who may be laid off seeing as you all have strong backgrounds in epidemiology, infectious diseases, worldwide pandemic control etc...

[John Citizen]

You don't have to be an expert in epidemiology, infectious diseases, worldwide pandemic control etc..
to quote what you might hear on the news or read from doing your own research.

[vee1-rotate]

There is always a smart ass.

You don't have to be an expert in to quote what you might hear on the news or read from doing your own research.

Yes please go ahead now and tell me it's all fake news.

My apologies John, my post was seemingly more so directed at the PHds in here stating this is simply a flu and our leaders are over reacting. I find it unbelievable that people think almost every civilized country on this planet is concurrently declaring national emergencies of the magnitude we have never seen in our lifetime over a simple flu strain.

[Superman1]

All TT pilots stood down until redundancy (about 220 pilots), remaining TT 737s transferred back to VA to be crewed by VA pilots and TT flight attendants.

The sacrificial lamb.

I know this is a rumour network but is that true? So Tigerair will no longer have any pilots employed?

[wondrousbitofrough]

So the remaining 2,000 staff, will that be
‘specialists’, those on ‘mates rates’, and Contractors? Obviously the CEO and the Board won’t be going anywhere, such important people.

Or some of them could be the pilots, cabin crew and engineers and head office team that are trying to keep what's left of the airline flying. Don't forget that aircraft just get parked up and forgotten about, they need engineers to maintain them during that time too.

[topend3]

VA as we know it are finished. IF they come back they will look different, very different, as Scurrah has indicated today. What a sad time for so many fantastic employees. :(

[Ragnor]

VA as we know it are finished. IF they come back they will look different, very different, as Scurrah has indicated today. What a sad time for so many fantastic employees. :(

Don't be so dramatic, I’m positive VA will pull through this maybe as much smaller airline but they will be around.

[Dookie on Drums]

Don't be so dramatic, I’m positive VA will pull through this maybe as much smaller airline but they will be around.

He/she hasn't been more dramatic than you

[machtuk]

I feel for the gang at Tigers, they must be shell shocked right now! -(

[27/09]

I feel for the gang at Tigers, they must be shell shocked right now! -(
What about the New Zealand based Virgin pilots and cabin crew? They're probably even more shell shocked.

[normanton]

What about the New Zealand based Virgin pilots and cabin crew? They're probably even more shell shocked.
What happened to them?

[Colonel_Klink]

The announcement today essentially stated that TT pilots will be made redundant, and any TT flying completed by VA NB pilots. It also stated that NZ pilots to be made redundant and any NZ flying to be done by VA NB pilots.

Essentially one group of 73 pilots who will be deployed anywhere they are needed.

It’s a very sad time for a lot of people out there - I feel for everyone who received the news today. Despite it not necessarily being made that clear by company communications.

[Superman1]

They certainly kept that bit quiet in the media release well at least didn’t go into any detail about more permanent redundancies especially of complete pilot groups at VANZ and TT ...presume was on the cards Coronavirus or not.

[Lookleft]

You mean the bloke that introduced pay for your rating before you start? Or do you mean the bloke who deliberately invited a young for an interview just so that he could humiliate him because his father was "of that year"?

[The Bullwinkle]

founding pilot of VA, John Raby,
Really!?! I thought Wal Gowans was the founding pilot.

[Paragraph377]

Really!?! I thought Wal Gowans was the founding pilot.
John was a good man. The main man behind the scenes. Worked tieless hours. Ben is an even better pilot. Couldn’t care less what anyone else thinks about John.

[Chadzat]

Thats good. Most of us couldnt care less about what you write Paragraph. Go off into your retirement quietly...go on.

[Trevor the lover]

I hear Paragraph and Machtuck are off for beers together tonight. All other fwits welcome.

[Dookie on Drums]

Never met John Raby but Wal Gowans Snr did many of my checks and Sims. Absolute gentleman, great bloke and extremely knowledgeable as most Checkies there were. Don't think about saying anything bad about him.

[The Bullwinkle]

Never met John Raby but Wal Gowans Snr did many of my checks and Sims. Absolute gentleman, great bloke and extremely knowledgeable as most Checkies there were. Don't think about saying anything bad about him.
I don't believe anybody ever would. One of the greatest gentlemen I've ever met!

[topend3]

Don't be so dramatic, I’m positive VA will pull through this maybe as much smaller airline but they will be around.

I'm not saying they won't be, but if they are they won't be what they were, they can't be.

[Turnleft080]

I wish the mods should and shall shut down Pprune all together before some gets mentally and physically hurt.

[SandyPalms]

It is clear that the stress of all this is causing some to lose their ability of rational thought. Posting news articles (written by somebody else) critical of VA, or someone talking about the price of QF flights etc....... doesn't mean QF pilots are all pricks and they can all go to hell. We don't actually want you to go broke or lose your job, promise. I feel for us all, but if you want solidarity, stop the school yard rubbish.
ok

[Dookie on Drums]

You're right, few too many wines on stand down and a bit of raw emotion. Deleted.

Good man/woman,

All is not lost. Keep your chin up.

[No Idea Either]

someone talking about the price of QF flights etc....... doesn't mean QF pilots are all pricks and they can all go to hell.
ok

Never said they were, never said they should. Stop making **** up......

[Paragraph377]

Renton Field, thank you for you PM and words of wisdom that I could and should have displayed. To those I have offended I offer a sincere apology.

I wish not to engage any further in words of war. My feelings towards legacy management, new management and the Board remains unabated. They are a disgrace and have the airlines blood on their hands.

To the pilot group I genuinely wish you all the best. The same applies for every other hard working decent Virgin Australia employee. I can only wish you a speedy career recovery and better things in the future.

To the conga line of incompetent and arrogant sociopathic executive management that have contributed towards what has become of Virgin Australia I hope your names are permanently tarnished and you be remembered for the useless idiots that you truly are.

[mrs nomer]

The 2 VA gentlemen mentioned earlier -

One is an absolute gentleman and his son is also a wonderful guy.
The other has a lot to answer for over the years.:mad:

Good luck to all Virgin and TT pilots into the future:ok:

[Brakerider]

Will VANZ Pilots be able to take Australian positions where their seniority allows? What was the whole point of this group seniority otherwise...

[No Idea Either]

That better be the intention Brakerider, including the TT troops. Everyone should be offered their old position back as the opportunity arises no matter how long it takes

[Stretch06]

That better be the intention Brakerider, including the TT troops. Everyone should be offered their old position back as the opportunity arises no matter how long it takes

I believe that is the case, and if re-employed within 5 years you join back on your original start date.

[zed737]

To all my fellow pilots going through this. You are not alone.
I could feel a real need in my pilot group and have started a Youtube series “Marty Does Rona” to help my peers in Qantas........its 100% focused on mental health and getting through chaotic time.
Now I can see the problem is so much bigger.
If you need a lift tune in.
Respect to all. z

[DUXNUTZ]

The concept of a seniority list is dead after this. How a long serving Captain (from either TT OR VANZ) can be given the boot while an insta cadet pilot keeps their position proves that. The so called ‘Group Seniority List’ isn’t worth the paper it’s written on.


Was it ever? Companies can always use the ‘extreme crisis’ card.

[John Citizen]

No guarantee for the future (https://www.9news.com.au/national/coronavirus-virgin-australia-boss-unable-to-guarantee-airline-future-covid-19-jobs-layoffs/cc52fda4-5a21-4d80-8ca9-b97da1d692b7)



The boss of Virgin Australia says the company is fighting to save jobs of 8000 workers stood down (https://www.9news.com.au/national/coronavirus-virgin-australia-stands-down-eight-thousand-workers-cuts-flights/9e7ba3b8-9966-4068-b88f-ba2b490e6a04) but can't guarantee the airline's future

[Dookie on Drums]

No guarantee for the future (https://www.9news.com.au/national/coronavirus-virgin-australia-boss-unable-to-guarantee-airline-future-covid-19-jobs-layoffs/cc52fda4-5a21-4d80-8ca9-b97da1d692b7)

Well, that was a given. Any business can say the same thing right now.

In the wise words of Dirty Harry, "If you want a guarantee, buy a toaster"

[RampDog]

Scurrah is talking to Coles to try to redeploy staff? It appears he has decided that VA has no need for Tiger pilots in the future.
https://australianaviation.com.au/2020/03/1000-stood-down-virgin-staff-likely-to-be-made-redundant/?utm_source=australianaviation-DOD&utm_campaign=24_03_2020&utm_medium=email&utm_content=1&utm_emailID=*|MMERGEEM|*

Redeploy - "assign (employees, or resources) to a new place or task"
Redundant - "no longer in employment because there is no more work available"

[B772]

Sad times indeed. A few comments.

Virgin to restructure under a different name. This will get rid of Branson and his multi million dollar fee to use the Virgin name.

The A330 fleet may not fly again yet the pilots and SO's being kept on at the expense of the Tiger pilots.

Deborah Wardley is no longer the oldest female airline Captain in the world.

Hot rumour is QF raised $1,000,000,000 to take-over VA and TT when the s..t hits the fan in 2-3 months time.

[The Bullwinkle]

Hot rumour is QF raised $1,000,000 to take-over VA and TT when the s..t hits the fan in 2-3 months time.
Firstly, I suspect your missing a few 000's!
Secondly, I can't see the ACCC ever letting that happen!
Nice rumour though!

[Ragnor]

Firstly, I suspect your missing a few 000's!
Secondly, I can't see the ACCC ever letting that happen!
Nice rumour though!

That’s one huge seniority list.

[slice]

The A330 fleet in Virgin don’t have the SO position.🙄

[wheels_down]

Every A330 Pilot should have a 737 rating already correct?

[Buster Hyman]

Hot rumour is QF raised $1,000,000 to take-over VA and TT when the s..t hits the fan in 2-3 months time.
Like SQ was coming to save AN...wouldn't get your hopes up.

So...TT flying by VA pilots. Would the fact that they'll be operating under the VA AOC negate the 'no TT flying by VA crews' in the EBA? Genuine question.

[speedjet]

Every A330 Pilot should have a 737 rating already correct?

Most would but not all. Some FO’s went from Ejet to A330.

[Paragraph377]

Virgin to restructure under a different name. This will get rid of Branson and his multi million dollar fee to use the Virgin name.
How much was VA paying Branson annually for rights to the Virgin brand name? I know when it was Virgin Blue it was $1m per tail per yer. But as the airline grew and with the name change to Virgin Australia I believe that fee became much less. Just curious, not looking for an argument.

[krismiler]

When British Airways took over British Caledonian in 1987, many BCAL Captains ended up back in the right hand seat. To quote what a BA pilot told me at the time "We screwed them."

Many years later I flew with an ex BCAL DC10 Captain who had been demoted and spent 10 years as a first officer before he was upgraded again.

[bangbounceboeing]

Had a private email from Paragraph377

“ How’s the job hunting going? Ha

kind of says it all what type of fu*ktard this ****** truely is. Stay strong fellow virgin, VANZ, tiger boys and girls.

[DanV2]

Hot rumour is QF raised $1,000,000 to take-over VA and TT when the s..t hits the fan in 2-3 months time.

That rumour is as likely as the numerous "SQ to take over VA" fake news articles that spurned over the past 5-6 years.

I do remember NZ offering AN to QF for a $1 before they sent in the administrators into AN.
Can't remember if NZ offered SQ the whole of AN for $1 before going to QF.

[Paragraph377]

Had a private email from Paragraph377

“ How’s the job hunting going? Ha

kind of says it all what type of fu*ktard this ****** truely is. Stay strong fellow virgin, VANZ, tiger boys and girls.

Old message. I explained that away yesterday and also apologised for any offence. You happened to be one of 4 people trolling me before I responded in haste and anger. Funny how people like you are happy to give it out but then can’t handle the return serve.
So get over it mate.

[bangbounceboeing]

Your just a dirty piece of sh*t Paragraph377.
Bet your just some sad lonely old git with no friends or family who has nothing better to do than sit on prune 24/7 waiting for the inevitable.

[spektrum]

Your just a dirty piece of sh*t Paragraph377.
Bet your just some sad lonely old git with no friends or family who has nothing better to do than sit on prune 24/7 waiting for the inevitable.

You're* x2

[Paragraph377]

Your just a dirty piece of sh*t Paragraph377.
Bet your just some sad lonely old git with no friends or family who has nothing better to do than sit on prune 24/7 waiting for the inevitable.
There you go, your true colours shining through. Keep going mate, show your colleagues the caliber of pilot you really are. At least I’m man enough to apologise for all to see and apologise to people via PM. As I said, you started the abuse when I had said not a single word against any pilot. As for you, well......

[SpellingPolice]

It should not just be Virgin pilots concerned about their employment. Any QF driver who is on the 380 or junior on the 330 should be working on a very solid, long term Plan B. Even if the world opened up again tomorrow, I postulate it will take a minimum of 2 years for international to return to pre Wu Flu levels.

My thoughts are with the guys and girls who have already been terminated. I fear this is only just the beginning. Anyone who is praying for someone else to lose their job is a complete knob. A vast number of us are only counting the days until we join you.

[Servo]

Enough flying to maybe keep 80 pilots paid. Mainly intra QLD and WA. Those without any leave will be hit the hardest. I am one of those. Circumstances beyond my control have put me in that position regarding leave. Seniority wont mean anything. I for one have been in VA for 17 years. In the end it means nothing.

Those circumstances have also left us without our savings. We have at most two weeks. I was hoping to get back on track before all this started.

Not sure what to do. Hopefully the ATO will let me withdraw some money from my super from mid April................

[B772]

Servo. australia.gov.au then look at Government payment and services, press learn more and there it is all laid out for you. Register immediately so your payments will be backdated to the date of registration. Do not forget you can do super before 30 June and then again after 01 July. Best of luck.

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

^^tax free withdrawal up to 10k for each FY

[directimped]

On that note, think long and hard about drawing from your super as you are selling at the bottom of the market and it could have implications for your retirement down the road.

​​​​​

[havick]

Sorry to hear about what’s going on at VA, have a few friends affected by this.

Has VA basically abandoned the group seniority list? Ie not furloughing from the bottom up and then displacing pilots as required?

[non_state_actor]

Has VA basically abandoned the group seniority list? Ie not furloughing from the bottom up and then displacing pilots as required?



Seniority has never applied to redundancy. So for example if you have Number 1 seniority and they decide to axe your fleet and make everyone on it redundant you will be let go and someone on another fleet, 300 numbers junior to you will be kept on.

[havick]

Seniority has never applied to redundancy. So for example if you have Number 1 seniority and they decide to axe your fleet and make everyone on it redundant you will be let go and someone on another fleet, 300 numbers junior to you will be kept on.

What’s the point of group seniority at all then?

[slice]

Except that in the Virgin Widebody EBA there are clauses that state redundancy is to be applied with strict date of joining regardless of fleet. Both the Unions (AFAP and VIPA) are taking that position to the company. This was an issue already before the full impact of the coronavirus was apparent. I suspect it could be a moot point though, as Virgin, in its struggle to survive, could exit widebody flying altogether. A rump 737 domestic (and international as required) operation resumes hopefully without the ineptitude, duplication, and general mismanagement that seems to have characterized much of Virgin's operation over the past decade. But possibly an international and domestic widebody capability is retained to take advantage of any upswing from pent up demand.

[wheels_down]

So they can’t essentially say, all A330s out, and all A330 pilots also?

So if DOJ its to be 777 SOs first, then probably a mix of 330 and 777 FOs. They would be removing more off the Triple compared to the Airbus.

Sounds similar to the whole Tiger setup, where they had half B/A, and Airbus goes along with its crew. Otherwise in expensive boat of having a remaining group of non type crew to retrain, assuming they dispose of the Airbus or majority of it.

In the tough times like this, I wonder if EBA clauses mean jack. They could argue its either this or the whole company’s goes under

[non_state_actor]

Except that in the Virgin Widebody EBA there are clauses that state redundancy is to be applied with strict date of joining regardless of fleet. Both the Unions (AFAP and VIPA) are taking that position to the company. This was an issue already before the full impact of the coronavirus was apparent. I suspect it could be a moot point though, as Virgin, in its struggle to survive, could exit widebody flying altogether. A rump 737 domestic (and international as required) operation resumes hopefully without the ineptitude, duplication, and general mismanagement that seems to have characterized much of Virgin's operation over the past decade. But possibly an international and domestic widebody capability is retained to take advantage of any upswing from pent up demand.

My understanding from last time is there was a ruling from a court case that has stopped any redundancy in seniority. You are promoted on seniority but redundancy occurs where the need is, regardless of your position in the company. I suggest you contact the Union and clarify your position if it is going to become a issue for you.

[sumtingwong]

The realisation that seniority lists are all snakes and no ladders. Only the company rolls the dice.

[John Citizen]

Singapore Airlines (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/is-a-singapore-airlines-takeover-of-virgin-australia-on-the-horizon/news-story/005b3a7847a7366d7a3998c3e5c44d3d)



Singapore Airlines has raised $US10.5 billion through Singapore Inc, which raises the question - is a takeover of Virgin Australia on the horizon?

The early commentary has put the airline’s capital raising as more of a rescue package as airlines worldwide reel from the blow of coronavirus.

But Singapore Airlines, which has a 20 per cent stake in the Australian carrier, has of all the Virgin shareholders the most to gain from a takeover.

Nearly 20 years ago Singapore tried to buy the airline from Richard Branson, who famously ripped up the cheque and said he wouldn’t accept it.

Current Virgin boss Paul Scurrah would run straight to his local bank to deposit the cheque and start talks about how to achieve the deal.

Company sources say there have been no talks, but it may be worth keeping an eye on the two airlines.

Any deal would be subject to Foreign Investment Review Board approval, which would not necessarily be a given, but Canberra would also see a Singapore Inc injection as the best way to keep Australia’s second airline afloat.

Qantas boss Alan Joyce would no doubt wrap himself in the national flag and shout about the terms, or any cosy deals for foreign airlines.

But he too would not be overly concerned, because it would cement Qantas’s place as the national flag carrier.

The Virgin share register is a mess and chock full of troubled offshore carriers including Etihad, HNA and Nanshan who, together with Branson, control over 90 per cent of the carrier.

Former boss John Borgehtti had pushed for a privatisation, but none of the four big foreign carriers would agree, or were willing to write the cheque to buy the others.

Virgin has an equity value of just over $700 million and $5 billion in debt.

Importantly that debt has a poison pill attached which is triggered by a change of control, but only if someone from outside the airline acquires it.

This means it wouldn’t affect Singapore Airlines, but would if say KKR acquired the airline.

Virgin would be a useful feeder for the Singapore network and provide strong competition for Qantas, which would be a good thing .

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/is-a-singapore-airlines-takeover-of-virgin-australia-on-the-horizon/news-story/005b3a7847a7366d7a3998c3e5c44d3d

[DanV2]

^ Now where did we hear this "story" before? Article no #32132173827391273 on a SQ 'takeover'.

As usual, the 'SQ takeover' article is 'Fake News' as always. The bailout money SQ had just raised is to keep themselves and their wholly owned subsidiaries (Silkair and Scoot) afloat during the C-19 crisis.
Not invest in other carriers.

[non_state_actor]

As usual, the 'SQ takeover' article is 'Fake News' as always. The bailout money SQ had just raised is to keep themselves and their wholly owned subsidiaries (Silkair and Scoot) afloat during the C-19 crisis.
Not invest in other carriers.

Depends how desperate the other parties are to sell. If Branson and the Chinese are forced to sell then Singapore gain control.

[DanV2]

Depends how desperate the other parties are to sell. If Branson and the Chinese are forced to sell then Singapore gain control.

SQ won't be interested.
The bailout money SQ have raised from their government owned parent are likely to come with terms and conditions to keep themselves (and their subsidiaries) afloat, not expand into other businesses.

If other parties are that desperate to sell and there are no buyers, (Let's face it HNA has been trying to off-load their stake for months and there's been no serious buyer). Chances are that VA has no choice but to file administration instead.

[Paragraph377]

SQ won't be interested.
The bailout money SQ have raised from their government owned parent are likely to come with terms and conditions to keep themselves (and their subsidiaries) afloat, not expand into other businesses.

If other parties are that desperate to sell and there are no buyers, (Let's face it HNA has been trying to off-load their stake for months and there's been no serious buyer). Chances are that VA has no choice but to file administration instead.

SQ have their own financial challenges during this crisis and their owner, the Singapore Government are only interested in SQ. HNA switched from purchasing to selling around 18 months ago due to deepening adverse world economics. Could one option for VA be for the Government to kick in some dollars but with some strict rules attached which would include scaling down executive salaries and removal of share options and bonuses? Basically get the airline up and functioning as an important part of economic delivery and keeping people
employed, but that means removing excess layers of mangement and their obscene pay structures. It may also mean having a Government representative on the Board ensuring Governance is maintained. No more personal piggy bank. A similar tailored approach to QF may also need to be considered if QF wish for equal treatment. It’s about putting people, employment and economic recovery first while shelving shares, profit gouging, executive salaries and having an incompetent Board and executive team.

[coaldemon]

Short Answer. No

[non_state_actor]

Could one option for VA be for the Government to kick in some dollars but with some strict rules attached which would include scaling down executive salaries and removal of share options and bonuses

They will never do that with VA. You might get a government backed loan but that will be it.

[Double_Clutch]

Honest question, can anyone confirm if the entire board has increased their payout beyond the stated 15%?

I am reading QF has reduced by 100% until June 30.

It would be a hard sell to expect 8000-10000 employees to take a massive hit, yet the board retains 85% of their pay?

Lead by example - if they don’t help out, everyone may end up with 100% of $0

[davidclarke]

Why would Singapore want to take on 5billion in Debt? It would make no financial sense in the current climate to buy into a debt ridden airline.

[strobes_on]

Correct - There is no way SQ could take this on with the associated debt and corporate millstones that "own" VAH. SQ needs these funds for the primary corporate entity to survive

[Blueskymine]

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

So instead of plotting each other’s demise. How about you stick together. It’s absolutely horrendous what has happened to the Tiger pilots. There should be every courtesy extended to them. And you should all be willing to to bring them onboard when this is done

There are many ways to manage this. Shared rosters/lines. Stand down with intent to rehire in the future. Re hire guarantees etc etc.

It’ll be the widebody guys next. A RIN on the 737. It’s not just you either. It’s all of us.

It’s like a bull thundering across a paddock. Right at you. It’ll take balls of steel for CEOs to stare down BIG shareholders and retain staff, when the stock market wants a quick sugar hit and the institutional investors make or lose millions when stocks move a few percentile.

So stand by your mates. Job share, roster on roster off. Welcome the widebody guys back to the fold if you have to. Do what you can. Do it together.

It’s coming for all of us. And I speak with a red tail and a dirty white hat. It’s coming for us too

[DanV2]

Why would Singapore want to take on 5billion in Debt? It would make no financial sense in the current climate to buy into a debt ridden airline.

Precisely. The bailout money for SQ is to ensure that the main SQ operation (and their subsidiary companies) survive.

The SG taxpayers won't be happy if their bailout funds are used elsewhere to prop up foreign operators, especially one with a $5B debt.

[ABP]

The SIA fundraising is being underwritten by the airline’s biggest investor, state-owned Temasek Holdings, which owns about 55% of the group. If their biggest investor wants to buy VA, then they will.

[DanV2]

The SIA fundraising is being underwritten by the airline’s biggest investor, state-owned Temasek Holdings, which owns about 55% of the group. If their biggest investor wants to buy VA, then they will.

We've heard the "SQ to take over VA"!!!!!!111!!!! fake news articles 2737458227 times before in the past 5 years.

The fundraising by their state owned parent is for SQ and SQ alone.

If any higher ups in SQ are still interested in the Australian market in general, there's a better chance of them waiting for VA to file administration and then pick up VA's assets (737s) at a liquidation fire sale to start a new company without the $5B debt VA has.

[wondrousbitofrough]

We've heard the "SQ to take over VA"!!!!!!111!!!! fake news articles 2737458227 times before in the past 5 years.

The fundraising by their state owned parent is for SQ and SQ alone.

If any higher ups in SQ are still interested in the Australian market in general, there's a better chance of them waiting for VA to file administration and then pick up VA's assets (737s) at a liquidation fire sale to start a new company without the $5B debt VA has.

Not knowing much about Singaporean management when it comes to airlines, IF it happens, how much of a rude shock are we all in for?

[The Bullwinkle]

We've heard the "SQ to take over VA"!!!!!!111!!!! fake news articles 2737458227 times before in the past 5 years.

The fundraising by their state owned parent is for SQ and SQ alone.

If any higher ups in SQ are still interested in the Australian market in general, there's a better chance of them waiting for VA to file administration and then pick up VA's assets (737s) at a liquidation fire sale to start a new company without the $5B debt VA has.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MKx3JlTnHbc

[ABP]

We've heard the "SQ to take over VA"!!!!!!111!!!! fake news articles 2737458227 times before in the past 5 years.

The fundraising by their state owned parent is for SQ and SQ alone.

If any higher ups in SQ are still interested in the Australian market in general, there's a better chance of them waiting for VA to file administration and then pick up VA's assets (737s) at a liquidation fire sale to start a new company without the $5B debt VA has.
I never said they will mate. I said if they wanted to, they can, as there is no restriction with the money they've recently acquired.

[Servo]

I wonder if the VANZ and TT guys and girls will be at an "advantage". I am not trying to be insensitive.

I hope they all get their annual leave owing paid out, then their entitlements (16 weeks - possibly) for being made redundant. Will give them some cash over the next few months, hopefully where this sorts itself out and the company will need them back.

They might get something, where if it all falls over, those remaining will get absolutely nothing. As we know the administrators get first pickings (along with execs of course). There will be nothing left for those on LWOP.

Either way you look at it, it sure is a s$%t show.

[Dookie on Drums]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x1600/d0614bc0_2c6a_4e54_8870_c9b0e4a56c94_1e38413830a0ac3a614cbb2 b78e50d507b952488.jpg

[skyshow]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x1600/d0614bc0_2c6a_4e54_8870_c9b0e4a56c94_1e38413830a0ac3a614cbb2 b78e50d507b952488.jpg

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x800/gettyimages_494805807_2fa5ec969ee7ac64917ee1e34e4a38937778a8 ef.jpg

[longjohn]

SQ don’t like distressed businesses. They desperately wanted Ansett, and offered $500m for half of it, but the Kiwi’s blocked them.

Once it fell over they could have bought it for $1.......they declined.

[Two_dogs]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1156x468/capture_66977d85ef937c2e3b2acae660117d6af8591fd9.jpg

[Icarus2001]

They might get something, where if it all falls over, those remaining will get absolutely nothing. As we know the administrators get first pickings (along with execs of course). There will be nothing left for those on LWOP.


Not really the case anymore.

https://www.ag.gov.au/industrial-relations/fair-entitlements-guarantee/Pages/default.aspx

Might be a good idea for VA employees to read the linked page.

The administrators certainly do not get first pickings, nor the execs.

[Servo]

Not really the case anymore.

https://www.ag.gov.au/industrial-relations/fair-entitlements-guarantee/Pages/default.aspx

Might be a good idea for VA employees to read the linked page.

The administrators certainly do not get first pickings, nor the execs.

Thanks Icarus2001. I didnt now about that. At least there is something, should it happen. Appreciate you posting that up so all can read. Cheers

[Paragraph377]

Thanks Icarus2001. I didnt now about that. At least there is something, should it happen. Appreciate you posting that up so all can read. Cheers
Well even if the executives received not a dime it doesn’t matter because they have stored up plenty of sheckles over the preceding years. $100m in total just for the little Irish toad, so he will be fine. But be careful Alan, millions of suddenly unemployed people during a depression will do lots of things out of the normal to ensure they have a meal in their families stomachs.

Hope all of those hoarders and peeps with panic rooms filled with food have them well hidden!

[-41]

Well even if the executives received not a dime it doesn’t matter because they have stored up plenty of sheckles over the preceding years. $100m in total just for the little Irish toad, so he will be fine. But be careful Alan, millions of suddenly unemployed people during a depression will do lots of things out of the normal to ensure they have a meal in their families stomachs.

Hope all of those hoarders and peeps with panic rooms filled with food have them well hidden!

I also believe in Unicorns.

We as pilots are not in a position to change the actions of Management nor control their renumeration.
Your just getting nasty with your posts, let it go mate. Your the lucky one

[directimped]

, you probably also believe the aviation industry will be normal in 3 months as if nothing ever happenned!
You would be surprised how many people believe this.

[Stretch06]

We as pilots are not in a position to change the actions of Management nor control their renumeration.

Thinking out loud, how many shareholders does QF have? If every employee own a small parcel, than wouldn't 30k odd votes at the AGM would potentially be able to sway the remuneration of the board and the execs?

[Shark Patrol]

Thinking out loud, how many shareholders does QF have? If every employee own a small parcel, than wouldn't 30k odd votes at the AGM would potentially be able to sway the remuneration of the board and the execs?

Not even close!!! Along with about a hundred other pilots (all resplendent in our red ties), I attended the QF AGM the day before Joyce shutdown the airline in 2011. At the time, James Strong was the director responsible for the Executive Remuneration part of proceedings. When it came time to vote on the bonuses for each executive, we were first shown the proxie votes (for the stock held by investment managers, hedge funds, super funds and the like) which were usually about 95% in favour. Although the mood of the meeting itself was quite hostile, the vote from the attendees achieved diddly squat. Joyce achieved the lowest overall approval for his bonus - about 92% in favour, if I remember correctly. The corporate sycophants and narcissists seated in the front row applauded enthusiastically at the result.

The world is clearly run by the one percent for the one percent, and my experience that day both confirmed this perception and revealed the AGM process for the farce that it is. After the vote on Joyce's bonus, many pilots walked out of the meeting. As they left the room, Joyce had this strange smirk on his face. The next afternoon I knew exactly what that expression meant. It's very sad that, as I've watched the QF share price drop over these last weeks, my most prominent feeling is one of satisfaction that the shareholding of Alan Joyce Pty Ltd is not worth half as much now as it was at the beginning of the year. It's certainly not shaping up to be the triumphant Centenary Year that he had imagined for himself.

Now back to the VA theme of the thread.

[Chris2303]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/120655605/virgin-australia-wont-resume-flights-to-new-zealand-after-coronavirus

"Virgin Australia hasn't decided whether it will resume flights to New Zealand"

An earlier version of this story categorically said that international flights from/to NZ would NOT resume

[wheels_down]

The plan appears to be return same day frequencies across the ditch with Aussie based 737 crews. Same day returns.

I would say the Kiwi schedule would be back to basic. MEL/BNE/SYD-Akl once Daily. Seasonal Queenstown. Dunedin no chance. Wellington questionable. Christchurch daily from perhaps one city.

By no means whatsoever will they have the crew to even contemplate returning to the pre NZ schedule. Considering picking up Tiger Flying also, plus say a quarter/half of the NZ current operation, I assume the A330 Pilots are going back to the 737 otherwise they appear to be short on bods.

[-41]

Para377, has there been a Luna tick outbreak in your town?

This hysteria will pass, to give you perspective 4109 people die from TB daily.

[directimped]

This hysteria will pass, to give you perspective 4109 people die from TB daily.
ignorant comment, do you think world governments are shutting down society for fun or because of public hysteria? No, it is simple maths. Exponential outbreak. 1 person can infect over 3 more and so on. Cases double every 3-5 days. Hospitals weren't designed for that and wouldn't collapse under the demand very quickly.

[John Citizen]

, to give you perspective 4109 people die from TB daily.

To give you perspective
- TB has a vaccine, is curable and preventable
- TB is not so contagious
- TB deaths are not increasing at an exponential rate
- about 3500 died from Covid-19 yesterday, next week it will be well above 5,000 in 1 day (well above the 4109). Last week there was about 1,600 deaths in 1 day. This week 3,500 in 1 day. Next week you can expect about 7,000 at this rate. Just do the Maths to work out how much will die in 6 month at this rate.

[Paragraph377]

Para377, has there been a Luna tick outbreak in your town?

This hysteria will pass, to give you perspective 4109 people die from TB daily.

The Troll returns. Some of the biggest lunatics are trolls such as yourself. Obviously -41 is your IQ. Go bury your head back in the sand Alice and click your shoes three times and say ‘this will soon be over, this will soon be over, this will be soon be over’.

[DanV2]

Federal government rules out 'nationalising' VA or QF.

Source: https://www.executivetraveller.com/news/qantas-virgin-australia-nationalised

[0ttoL]

Article from Bloomberg:The Airlines Most in Danger of Going Under During the Crisishttps://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-26/the-airlines-most-in-danger-as-virus-inflicts-252-billion-blow

Mentions Virgin among many others based on "Using the Z-score method developed by Edward Altman in the 1960s to predict bankruptcies"
I have no idea what that all means, but my thoughts are with the people involved in our airline industry.
Best of Luck to All!

[-41]

The Troll returns. Some of the biggest lunatics are trolls such as yourself. Obviously -41 is your IQ. Go bury your head back in the sand Alice and click your shoes three times and say ‘this will soon be over, this will soon be over, this will be soon be over’.

I understand your scared, and want to lash out. Have a look at what epidemiologist Neil Ferguson has done with his updated modelling. 2.2 million deaths was predicated in USA (which was not plausible) it’s been dropped by a factor of 20 so perhaps 90000 deaths in USA, perhaps 20,000 deaths in the UK and could be substantially lower.

It will pass, relax. Be positive.

[directimped]

I understand your scared, and want to lash out. Have a look at what epidemiologist Neil Ferguson has done with his updated modelling. 2.2 million deaths was predicated in USA (which was not plausible) it’s been dropped by a factor of 20 so perhaps 90000 deaths in USA, perhaps 20,000 deaths in the UK and could be substantially lower.

It will pass, relax. Be positive.
You still don't seem to understand. This isn't about how many people will 'die' from the virus. It is about the capacity of the health system. If too many people catch the virus, then hospitals will be overwhelmed which will lead to many deaths, even ones completely unrelated to the virus. Do you understand that more patients than beds is a bad thing?

[junior.VH-LFA]

I understand your scared, and want to lash out. Have a look at what epidemiologist Neil Ferguson has done with his updated modelling. 2.2 million deaths was predicated in USA (which was not plausible) it’s been dropped by a factor of 20 so perhaps 90000 deaths in USA, perhaps 20,000 deaths in the UK and could be substantially lower.

It will pass, relax. Be positive.

How is it possible with so much peer reviewed academic information out there that you are able to be so ill informed?

The death rate from the virus, while not irrelevant, is certainly not the biggest issue governments are dealing with. What will happen to the car crash victim when every single ICU bed in the country is dealing with COVID-19 patients because we didn't flatten the curve? That's the problem.

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf?fbclid=IwAR10LtHyDtMyhOLh1Hjwg8M48hcRPBRrue1Orfwvou a9B5HGdLRjJbRge7A

Herre's a good paper from the Imperial College London. Go have a read.

[Paragraph377]

I understand your scared, and want to lash out. Have a look at what epidemiologist Neil Ferguson has done with his updated modelling. 2.2 million deaths was predicated in USA (which was not plausible) it’s been dropped by a factor of 20 so perhaps 90000 deaths in USA, perhaps 20,000 deaths in the UK and could be substantially lower.
It will pass, relax. Be positive.

I am relaxed in regards to the COVID outbreak. As for being scared, huh. If you had lived in my shoes for a few years you would know that nothing scares me, well nothing except perhaps being a passenger in a plane that is being flown by someone like you with your poor mental health.I don’t believe Governments and I don’t believe mainstream media, and I don’t believe that the pandemic will be as bad as both of these sources are making out. I don’t wear a tinfoil hat either, but world Governments are notorious for making monumental blunders and I believe shutting down the global economy will turn out to be one of mankind’s biggest clusterf#cks. Only time will tell.

[-41]

I never disputed that. Merely pointing out the weak will die and humanity will continue.

[junior.VH-LFA]

I am relaxed in regards to the COVID outbreak. As for being scared, huh. If you had lived in my shoes for a few years you would know that nothing scares me, well nothing except perhaps being a passenger in a plane that is being flown by someone like you with your poor mental health.I don’t believe Governments and I don’t believe mainstream media, and I don’t believe that the pandemic will be as bad as both of these sources are making out. I don’t wear a tinfoil hat either, but world Governments are notorious for making monumental blunders and I believe shutting down the global economy will turn out to be one of mankind’s biggest clusterf#cks. Only time will tell.

If social distancing works, then it will feel like a massive over reaction. That's kind of the point. The ideal scenario here is that it does seem "underwhelming" which means that the measures were successful. I think that's something that is going to be hard for people to reconcile in the future; it might feel like all of this is for nothing. The reality may very well be that all of this meant everything.

I agree there probably should have been a discussion of what X looks like in an equation of what damage you're willing to accept virus wise to protect the economy, but it's also probably too late for that.

[directimped]

We live in a post truth age. No matter how many scientists come and warn about the effects of global warming, coronavirus, whatever else, no matter how much evidence they give, it is never enough. Someone always knows better, and they will always reference the 1% who have an opposing view, no matter the effect on others. It is a sad reflection of our society.

Just watch these people stoop to new lows when flying slowly resumes. If you haven't seen how pathetic people can be, you are about to.
​​​​​

[-41]

I am relaxed in regards to the COVID outbreak. As for being scared, huh. If you had lived in my shoes for a few years you would know that nothing scares me, well nothing except perhaps being a passenger in a plane that is being flown by someone like you with your poor mental health.I don’t believe Governments and I don’t believe mainstream media, and I don’t believe that the pandemic will be as bad as both of these sources are making out. I don’t wear a tinfoil hat either, but world Governments are notorious for making monumental blunders and I believe shutting down the global economy will turn out to be one of mankind’s biggest clusterf#cks. Only time will tell.

yes I agree with your sentiments, maybe not the diagnosis on my mental health or flying ability.
I feel that this hysterical main stream media response is fear porn.

[Led Zeppelin]

As long there is not too much early relaxation to minimise the effect of a second wave of COVID - international restrictions may last much longer than an earlier relaxation domestically in Australia.

[directimped]

yes I agree with your sentiments, maybe not the diagnosis on my mental health or flying ability.
I feel that this hysterical main stream media response is fear porn.
Well you could always get your news from a reputable source like the ABC or such instead of junk sources like channel 7 or 9.

[B772]

longjohn: Do not make a comment if you do not know the accurate facts. At the end of the day SQ were prevented from taking over AN by John Howard. Geoff Dixon of QF got in the ear of John Howard. SQ wanted rights to the trans pacific and had ideas of operating round the world flights such as BA and UA had at times. QF had objected each time SQ applied for traffic rights trans pacific. QF were petrified of SQ at the time. One of the arguments SQ used was they allowed QF to pick up and put down in SIN enroute to LHR and MAN. SQ wanted rights to pick up and put down in SIN enroute to LAX and SFO.

[DanV2]

SQ was actually blocked by NZ the first time around from acquiring News Corp's 50% of AN.

The bloke running NZ (aka Selwyn 'Borghetti' Cushing) used his veto to block SQ from purchasing AN purely due to his ego despite fully knowing his company didn't have the balance sheet to fix an ailing AN.
The then-AN CEO Eddington left not soon after and Cushing installed his hapless 'sidekick' Gary Toomey as CEO of the combined group.

The AU feds and QF had little to nothing to do with the final days of the AN stakeholder situation. The NZ feds may had issues with SQ stake in NZ from memory prior to the AN collapse.

Source: https://australianaviation.com.au/2019/09/from-the-archives-the-ansett-collapse/

[B772]

I am surprised the market is not being kept fully informed of the predicament Virgin Australia (VAH)has found itself in. This may be due to the ASX announcements being overloaded but unlikely. I suspect it is due to the mess VAH are in. For those that do not know Stand and Poor's (S&P) has junked the VAH credit rating. This is the second downgrade in 2 weeks by S&P. S&P is concerned the previous mentioned $900 million unrestricted cash buffer (loan) is likely to materially reduce in the very near term. With HNA now taken over by the State (Chinese Government) anything could come from left field. Etihad is going to crumble like a pack of cards. A ratings agency has described Etihad as having very weak financials.

Etihad has sold 38 long haul aircraft at fire sale prices to raise USD1,000,000,000. This is just over an average of USD26M per aircraft. The sale includes all the B777-300ERs, A330-200s and A330-300s powered by Trent engines.

[Chadzat]

Maybe check your facts before sinking the boot in B772.

VAH announced that very thing on Mar 27th to the ASX.

Better find something else to do in your retirement as posting half-decent posts with anything of quality isnt a strong point.

[Dale Hardale]

B772

Yes - there was a formal ASX announcement on 27th March - I suspect submitted pretty much immediately by Scurrah. There's too much riding on this to stuff around and hide things.

So it was out in the open straight away, and maybe you should be a bit more careful about your comments.:ugh:

[B772]

Chadzat and Dale Hardale. I concede. I have found the announcement. I usually rely on Commsec for announcements. Commsec is not up to date which is a worry.

A further update from a former Etihad colleague is the B787-10 fleet will be used as freighters until further notice. This will ensure the carriage of fruit, vegetables, meat, medical supplies and mail etc will continue to ports where borders remain open for cargo.

[longjohn]

Whilst we’re at it, you might want to concede having your facts wrong on post 688/689.

I know the facts, I was there!

[oicur12.again]

”I feel that this hysterical main stream media response is fear porn.”

That may or may not be the case, if it bleeds it leads.

But I am amazed that people out there still think that the c19 response is media driven.

NYC has almost 34,000 cases of the virus and heading towards 1000 deaths and the rapid rate of growth is staggering.

The city is expecting these numbers to increase massively and city hospitals cannot cope and have resorted to storing dead bodies in Costco freezer trucks.

The Governor of NY has mobilized the National Guard and the Navy have sent a hospital ship to the city.

I am the last person on earth to believe commercial news media outlets however these grim numbers are not the result of a media beat up.

The Government and business are not reacting the way they have simply because leaders happened to turn on the tv news one day.

[dr dre]

​​​​​​Virgin Australia is reportedly seeking a $1.4 billion loan from the Federal Government to survive a prolonged coronavirus grounding.

Under the plan, if the airline was unable to repay the loan in full within two to three years, the government would take an equity stake in the company.

Mindful of potential criticism over the Government bailing out Virgin alone – including recent comments by Qantas CEO Alan Joyce that the Government "can’t pick winners and losers" and that any aid should be shared across the sector – Scurrah is said to have suggested that rescue package "not be exclusive to Virgin and should be part of a broader aviation industry package of up to $5 billion"​

Virgin Australia seeks $1.4 billion Government bailout (https://www.executivetraveller.com/news/virgin-australia-government-bailout)

[Ragnor]

Would Singapore swoop in and take ownership of VA?

[JoeTripodi]

Good luck with that....Qantas tried and failed with a similar request a few years ago and Joe said no.

[Tommy Bahama]

If the Govt. does that every failing business (and then some) in Australia will come with their hand out. Can someone please explain to me how Virgin expects to make 1.4B in 3 years?

[B772]

VAH are in a trading halt on the ASX pending an announcement.

Interesting to see the comparison between Virgin Australia and Aeroflot as determined by Fitch Ratings.

"VAH's rating compares well with that of Public Joint Stock Company Aeroflot - Russian Airlines (Aeroflot, BB/Negative). Aeroflot benefits from its position as Russia's flagship carrier, as well as the diversification of its route network, favourable hub position and competitive cost structure. VAH's business profile is comparable with that of Aeroflot as well. VAH has a strong market position as a result of the structure of the Australian aviation market and the end-of-the-line protection of its main domestic operations.

The main factors underscoring the four-notch differential are Aeroflot's rating benefits from a two-notch uplift under Fitch's Government-Related Entities Rating Criteria, with the remaining two notches attributable to Aeroflot's better business profile due to larger scale and the deterioration of VAH's financial profile - which has led to one of the two-notch downgrade - as it responds to the pandemic".

[Des Dimona]

Putting aside the personal impact on Virgin's staff, which would be absolutely terrible, the government has a real problem on it's hands.

The big difference between Virgin and other companies that have been the beneficiaries of government support is that Virgin is a publicly listed company whose main shareholders are outside of Australia and who are in no position to provide a bail out. So the Australian government would then become a prime guarantor for ongoing operations of a private and foreign owned entity.

Don't think that would sit very well with most Australians and the argument against the bail out will be that it's not a government responsibility to prop up a public company that has been totally mismanaged by others over the years.

You can bet that AJ will be leaving no stone unturned to try and stop this, without equivalent funding for Qantas.

[noclue]

VAH in a trading halt due pending announcement.
Was the 1.4b request the announcement, or are they announcing the governments response?

[ampclamp]

VAH in a trading halt due pending announcement.
Was the 1.4b request the announcement, or are they announcing the governments response?

It is obviously market sensitive with them seeking the cash and the answer from government.

No trade until answered I would say. It may stay halted if their finances are precarious and the parents are unable to cough up.

With so many demands for government help right now I can't see them them pitching in, particularly being a largely foreign owned entity.

Employees will be able to access the relief package announced last night if it fails, so they are looked after to a degree for 6 months.

It feels like Ansett all over again. makes That makes me feel ill.

[Paragraph377]

It feels like Ansett all over again. makes That makes me feel ill.

The largest of several nails in Ansett’s coffin was Sir Peter Ables. The largest of several nails in Virgin Australia’s coffin was John Borghettti.

[Superman1]

Live from Channel 7.. dated today.

Virgin Australia shares have been placed in a trading halt pending an announcement from Air New Zealand regarding its shareholding on Tuesday.

Air New Zealand is the largest shareholder in Virgin Australia with a 26 per cent stake.

“The trading halt is requested pending an announcement by Air New Zealand in relation to its shareholding in Virgin Australia,” the company said in a statement to the ASX on Wednesday.



What????

“Virgin Australia wishes the trading halt to remain in place until the earlier of such time as Air New Zealand makes an announcement to the market in relation to its shareholding in VAH and the commencing of trading on Thursday 31 March 2020.”

Im very confused, NZ don’t have a holding anymore?

https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEJGeuJUGAf8wk--DXnhK92IqMwgEKioIACIQAqTBzZHoEIrcyUrQUNXY6ioUCAoiEAKkwc2R6BC K3MlK0FDV2Oow-N7IBg?hl=en-AU&gl=AU&ceid=AU%3Aen

[Tommy Bahama]

The largest of several nails in Ansett’s coffin was Sir Peter Ables. The largest of several nails in Virgin Australia’s coffin was John Borghettti.

JB didnt act alone.....Anyone on the board or with manager in their title should hang their heads in collective shame. If VA does survive they should publicly apologise to staff AND take a massive and I mean 75% or more pay cut.

[SOPS]

That makes no sense at all.

[B772]

Is it 01 April in New Zealand ?

As Donald Trump would say this is fake news.

[Des Dimona]

Here's the shareholding detail as at September last year.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/391x207/vah_shareholdings_603f0ca12f9347c035fc351e10795dfffe48816e.p ng

[Icarus2001]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-31/virgin-in-trading-halt-as-it-seeks-coronavirus-bailout/12105654

The trading halt is real enough.

[Turnleft080]

You can bet that AJ will be leaving no stone unturned to try and stop this, without equivalent funding for Qantas.

AJ can't say one word. If he does then he is a hypocrite. Why? Their is still 3.6b remaining in the stimulus package.

[wondrousbitofrough]

Can I suggest that while the media are throwing out anything they can with regards VA, you'd be better off checking the ASX website for any news if you want to. Any announcements will be made simultaneously to the media and the ASX.

[Paragraph377]

Can I suggest that while the media are throwing out anything they can with regards VA, you'd be better off checking the ASX website for any news if you want to. Any announcements will be made simultaneously to the media and the ASX.
There is a statement by VAH on the ASX. My take on this is that VA has been speaking to the Government confidentially and someone somewhere has leaked this to the ‘Fake’ media.

[B772]

Des Dimona. The HNA holding is now believed to be owned by the Chinese Government.

[junior.VH-LFA]

RESPONSE TO MEDIA REPORTING 31 March 2020:
Virgin Australia acknowledges reporting in The Australian today and confirms it continues to explore a range of options to manage through the COVID-19 crisis, including requesting financial support from the Australian Government in the order of $1.4bn as part of a broader industry support package to prepare for a prolonged crisis. It is a preliminary proposal and remains subject to approval by the Virgin Australia Holdings Board and the Australian Government and may or may not include conversion to equity in certain circumstances. Companies like the Virgin Australia Group are taking a range of measures to respond and manage the financial impact. However, support will be necessary for the industry if this crisis continues indefinitely, to protect jobs and ensure Australia retains a strong, competitive aviation and tourism sector once this crisis is over. Virgin Australia continues to be in compliance with its continuous disclosure obligations and will update the market as required.
ENDS This announcement was authorised for release by Virgin Australia Group Chief Executive Officer and Managing Director, Paul Scurrah.

[Paragraph377]

It is very interesting and uncertain times for VA. Sadly it’s endemic mismanagement has unravelled after a long time coming. Stepping back to the late 90’s there were occasions when SQ and ANZ were indeed circling Ansett’s carcass. Both airlines being foreign owned was an issue but both have Government ownership within their respective countries and both have (or had) healthy balance sheets prior to COVID-19. If VA tips over, and it will without a Government bailout, is it possible that either SQ or ANZ will set up operations in Australia? Just a thought. Some foreign ownership rules have been relaxed in Australia over the past 20 years.

[Denied Justice]

If the Chinese government through HNA owns a significant part of Virgin, there is no way the Australian government should bail Virgin out.

EAG is Etihad and they are broke after failed investments in Alitalia and Air Berlin.

SIA is looking for cash to keep itself afloat.

Corvina Holdings is a Caribbean based entity - a subsidiary that ultimately has Richard Branson through a company called Grenache as a primary shareholder.

Nanshan Capital is another major Chinese group.

So there is not too much Australian about VAH at all.

[chookcooker]

If the Chinese government through HNA owns a significant part of Virgin, there is no way the Australian government should bail Virgin out.

EAG is Etihad and they are broke after failed investments in Alitalia and Air Berlin.

SIA is looking for cash to keep itself afloat.

Corvina Holdings is a Caribbean based entity - a subsidiary that ultimately has Richard Branson through a company called Grenache as a primary shareholder.

Nanshan Capital is another major Chinese group.

Not too much Australian about VAH at all.

wow you should be an investigative journalist.

[wondrousbitofrough]

If the Chinese government through HNA owns a significant part of Virgin, there is no way the Australian government should bail Virgin out.

EAG is Etihad and they are broke after failed investments in Alitalia and Air Berlin.

SIA is looking for cash to keep itself afloat.

Corvina Holdings is a Caribbean based entity - a subsidiary that ultimately has Richard Branson through a company called Grenache as a primary shareholder.

Nanshan Capital is another major Chinese group.

So there is not too much Australian about VAH at all.

Except most of its workforce...

[Renton Field]

Except for the 10,000 or so employees.Almost all Aussies.
If working for a purely Oz owned company was a criteria for applying for any job,it would be an awfully short list.
There’s a fair bit of detail being left out of the headline announcements.
PS was very clear last week in several interviews that his position was support for the whole sector,not just VA.
Also said it was better to get those kinds of mechanisms in place earlier rather than later,which is,again what he appears to be doing.
As other wiser heads above have noted,calling a halt to trading is SOP for a change deemed market sensitive.
Agree it’s not a good look though.AJ and Q media seem like they can smell blood in the water....

[DanV2]

It is very interesting and uncertain times for VA. Sadly it’s endemic mismanagement has unravelled after a long time coming. Stepping back to the late 90’s there were occasions when SQ and ANZ were indeed circling Ansett’s carcass. Both airlines being foreign owned was an issue but both have Government ownership within their respective countries and both have (or had) healthy balance sheets prior to COVID-19. If VA tips over, and it will without a Government bailout, is it possible that either SQ or ANZ will set up operations in Australia? Just a thought. Some foreign ownership rules have been relaxed in Australia over the past 20 years.

SQ's raising of $10B from their government owned parent is likely to be mostly used on their day to day million dollar losses due to COVID-19. Whether SQ will have any money from their $10B bailout money left when the pandemic subsides is another question entirely.

NZ, in my opinion, will likely be way too shy to attempt a 3rd go at the Australian market after the AN debacle (led by ego-driven Selwyn 'Borghetti' Cushing from Brierley) and their recent failed VA attempt (ended with a 'clash of the egos' between Chris Luxon and John Borghetti).

[Denied Justice]

PS was very clear last week in several interviews that his position was support for the whole sector,not just VA.

RF - a bit of naivety

He's trying to save Virgin and no one else, as is Joyce trying to save Qantas and no one else.

[B772]

The latest. If VA receive the requested $1.4B QF claim they will be entitled to $4.2B

[Renton Field]

Yeah,obviously....but he’s not actively trying to stop the Q receiving anything.
Media selectively reporting again to maintain ‘catastrophe’ zeitgeist.

[t_cas]

The latest. If VA receive the requested $1.4B QF claim they will be entitled to $4.2B

keyword here. ‘Entitled’.

[Chris2303]

NZ, in my opinion, will likely be way too shy to attempt a 3rd go at the Australian market after the AN debacle (led by ego-driven Selwyn 'Borghetti' Cushing from Brierley) and their recent failed VA attempt (ended with a 'clash of the egos' between Chris Luxon and John Borghetti).

Especially after the way NZ dumped the codeshare arrangement with VA in October last year.

[IsDon01]

Virgin are after a $1.4B bailout to save the jobs of 10,000 employees.

The Australian government would be far better off giving each of the 10,000 employees $140,000. At least they could use the money to get on with their lives, find other work, or move to another industry. It would certainly give each of them time to make some important decisions.

Or they could give Virgin $1.4B in an attempt to save those jobs. Think Australian Auto Manufacturing industry. How much money was thrown at propping up that industry which eventually failed anyway? Money wasted. The same would happen with Virgin, it would just delay the outcome. It would make Richard Branson and his Chinese/Singaporean/Middle East mates happy, but achieve nothing except giving these shareholders a problem to solve. That being how would they get their grubby hands on the Australian taxpayers money before Virgin Australia eventually went under.

[DanV2]

VAH to make TigerAir pilots 'redundant' by the end of this week (according to AFAP rep at TigerAir).

https://www.9news.com.au/national/coronavirus-tigerair-pilots-to-lose-jobs-within-days-union-says/40d4884b-3757-489f-acd4-ecb1e2c597b8?ocid=Social-9News

[ABP]

Virgin are after a $1.4B bailout to save the jobs of 10,000 employees.

The Australian government would be far better off giving each of the 10,000 employees $140,000. At least they could use the money to get on with their lives, find other work, or move to another industry. It would certainly give each of them time to make some important decisions.

Or they could give Virgin $1.4B in an attempt to save those jobs. Think Australian Auto Manufacturing industry. How much money was thrown at propping up that industry which eventually failed anyway? Money wasted. The same would happen with Virgin, it would just delay the outcome. It would make Richard Branson and his Chinese/Singaporean/Middle East mates happy, but achieve nothing except giving these shareholders a problem to solve. That being how would they get their grubby hands on the Australian taxpayers money before Virgin Australia eventually went under.
More to it than saving 10,000 jobs. Look at it holistically. It's been stated it affects the tourism industry and consumers. It's a cycle.
Yes, Ansett did not get any bailout. But Virgin Blue was there to fill the gap. No one is capable of filling the gap this time as globally all airlines will be wounded. And then, holistically, the industry suffers as do consumers. It's not just about 10,000 under the circumstances.

[Berealgetreal]

Can I suggest that while the media are throwing out anything they can with regards VA, you'd be better off checking the ASX website for any news if you want to. Any announcements will be made simultaneously to the media and the ASX.

About the smartest thing I’ve read here in a while.

[IsDon01]

More to it than saving 10,000 jobs. Look at it holistically. It's been stated it affects the tourism industry and consumers. It's a cycle.
Yes, Ansett did not get any bailout. But Virgin Blue was there to fill the gap. No one is capable of filling the gap this time as globally all airlines will be wounded. And then, holistically, the industry suffers as do consumers. It's not just about 10,000 under the circumstances.

You're making the assumption that a $1.4B bailout will save Virgin. It won’t. It hasn’t made a profit in years despite being in one of the best times for world airlines I’ve seen in decades. A $1.4B bailout might delay the inevitable 6 months or so, but were still going to end up with the same result. A failed airline. The only difference is the Australian taxpayer will be $1.4B out of pocket.

[Buster Hyman]

But Virgin Blue was there to fill the gap. No one is capable of filling the gap this time as globally all airlines will be wounded.
I doubt there'll be much of a gap to fill to be honest.

[normanton]

How do they expect to pay back $1.4b when they cant even make a profit?

[Icarus2001]

Exactly correct. There will not be much domestic travel until the end of this year at best. International, well you may find some countries closed for business for a while. VA were losing ONE MILLION dollars a day in fantastic market conditions. Think about that before you call your MP and ask him to back a bail out, loan, line of credit.

[Chad Gates]

The news this morning indicated it would lead to the Government ending up owning a substantial part of VA. I’d say that is what they really want. But it has also been said that they don’t want to nationalise it. I dunno.

[The Bullwinkle]

You're making the assumption that a $1.4B bailout will save Virgin. It won’t. It hasn’t made a profit in years despite being in one of the best times for world airlines I’ve seen in decades.

VA were losing ONE MILLION dollars a day in fantastic market conditions.
Yes, but it's no longer being run by a self-serving egotistical f@#$wit!

[ABP]

Analysts had reported (before COVID-19) the break-even for Virgin Australia was to occur within 6 months, with a small profit to occur in 2021. From there, it would rise. The necessary cost cutting focus had been implemented by Paul Scurrah. Yes, Virgin Australia was losing money (at a statutory level) for years, but this was on the right track to recovery.

[ABP]

I doubt there'll be much of a gap to fill to be honest.
A gap in a monopolistic market, nonetheless.

[Paragraph377]

The news this morning indicated it would lead to the Government ending up owning a substantial part of VA. I’d say that is what they really want. But it has also been said that they don’t want to nationalise it. I dunno.
Can you imagine that? Although Borghetti and past and present Board members are incompetent muppets, the Government couldn’t manage the leasing of an outdoors ****ter! Imagine incompetent Politicians being responsible for an actual corporation that is supposed to make money? Politicians aren’t business people, they are knobs. They only know how to burn through money and waste it on crap and then borrow more and create a bigger bubble.

[Buster Hyman]

Imagine incompetent Politicians being responsible for an actual corporation that is supposed to make money?
Any examples from the old QF & TN you could give us to illustrate this? Pollies running an Airline...

[Lapon]

Can the government afford to NOT 'bail' VA out?

Beyond the 10,000 employees directly affected are numerous contractors and suppliers who will likley go to the wall at the worst possible time. And then there are the social costs.

$1.4B is a mere fraction of a percent of what the whole virus is going to cost, and if media speculation is anything to go by it's not exactly free money for VA. It's a loan (obviously of such risk the goverment had to be tapped), with a possible equity stake (thus appeasing the nay sayers of the current foreign ownership)

The option can't be ruled out entirely due to previous management errors.

QF have secured thier own funding and should be grateful they could. There is no point AJ crying foul because his own request for goverment assistance previousy knocked back when a high school accounting student could see the attempt for what ot was.

[GoNorth]

How do they expect to pay back $1.4b when they cant even make a profit?Take the emotion out of it. Look at the bigger picture.

10,000 employees would probably equate to around 300 million being paid in payroll tax per year (that's my figures, don't ask me to quote but think about it). That's 300 million going into (increasing) Australia's tax kitty.

Throw those 10,000 employees onto the street and burn Virgin at the stake then not only will there not be 300 million going into Australia's tax kitty but those 10,000 employees will then require government assistance/help in the form of job search etc. What will that equate to? I'm guessing probably close to 200 million per year initially. How long will that last for? Not exactly the best time to be looking for a job at the moment with the likes of Coles and Woolworths turning away Virgin staff in favour of Qantas staff.

That would be a resultant change of about 500 million dollars out of Australia's Tax kitty per year initially. Then add all the supporting companies that aren't Virgin that will have to cull staff (catering, cleaners, airport shops, airports/terminals, transport companies etc the list goes on). Even less tax going into the kitty.

A 1.4 Billion dollar loan to Virgin would start to give the government a return on their money after 4 to 5 years from the employees (payroll tax) on their own. That's before we even consider Virgin paying back the loan and god forbid, if they ever make a profit, start to pay corporate tax.

So my question is...........

Can Australia really afford to let Virgin go under?

[Servo]

It appears there are a LOT of people on here that would LOVE Virgin to fall over and see 10,000+ staff lose everything. What a nice bunch you are. It doesnt appear that this covid-19 virus is selective, hopefully it might thin out the population on here.

[Icarus2001]

Your logic is compelling GoNorth but surely the issue is then why stop with VA? Why not rescue any large business that is circling the drain? For exactly the reasons you have stated. I am pretty sure that the "gumint" would be well aware that VA has been hanging by a thread for a few years. Someone above said that "analysts" said that VA was CLOSE TO BREAK EVEN. Hip hip hooray. After twenty years of trading they almost are back at square one. Forget about the shares issued at $2 now below 10 cents.

I cannot see the government falling for this one and it is pretty obvious Joyce will be doing all he can to stop any "bail out".

[markontop]

Why not sell Tiger (OR KITTY) to anyone, start up an airline? Won’t need to be big no demand.
That would satisfy the competition purists.
Bailing out VOZ good public money after bad private.

[Chad Gates]

It appears there are a LOT of people on here that would LOVE Virgin to fall over and see 10,000+ staff lose everything. What a nice bunch you are. It doesnt appear that this covid-19 virus is selective, hopefully it might thin out the population on here.

Nobody in QF wants VA to go bust and their staff to “lose everything”. What we want is not to have a failing competitor given a leg up against our business which in the future could mean we lose everything. If VA gets 1.4B, great. But QF must get something also.

[crosscutter]

This thread has taken a ludicrous turn. The Australian government themselves would need to take borrowing measures to provide further capital. If people think government investment decisions are taken with a view of down-line welfare losses then I feel people need to get real.

The government has introduced spending that increases Australia’s total debt by 40%. It has introduced a wage subsidy for 6 million workers for at least 6 months. These are massive measures that will exist irrespective to support workers.

Back to Virgin...half the 737 fleet is owned. 4 777 are owned. The rest are leased. I have no idea when leases may expire but capital raising options are available. The problem is what investor in their right mind would stump up the cash? So indeed, what protection and requirements would the government demand? What was the interest rate charged by the NZ government on their loan to ANZ??? And they are the major shareholder.

I’m in no position to speculate and nor would I want to. It’s unfair. It’s a devastating situation. Good luck to us all. Just trying to keep it real.

[Paragraph377]

Any examples from the old QF & TN you could give us to illustrate this? Pollies running an Airline...
Legacy days where airlines were a viirtual licence to print money. Not today, they are businesses that require smarts, innovation and hard work to make money in a ruthless economic business environment. Nobody in todays Government could ever succeed in doing that.

[Lookleft]

This announcement by VA management just shows there is nothing left in the locker. They have fired their last shot. I know many people in Virgin most of whom went through this same anxiety in 2001 but at the end of the day why should the government become a a partner in an airline owned by overseas interests? All the arguments about 10,000' people being out of work and the drain on the tax payers etc. were exactly the same when 16,000 staff were without work in 2001. If there is a sound business case for the void to be filled then someone will fill it. The only financial input the government will have is to guarantee the redundancy payments. There is no upside to this and I would hope that there is no-one enjoying the tragedy.

[lucille]

I have long been a supporter of VA, fantastic staff, great crew and an excellent product. Had It been majority Australian owned I’d be all in favour of supporting it. Sadly 90% or so of it is under foreign ownership. That $1.4 billion effectively goes to Prop up the investments of the foreign owners and not the staff and that part sticks in my throat.

There is a slightly positive side to this, another airline will start up in the future to fill the vacuum (should it ever come to that), experienced airline staff will be able to find work again. Australia cannot exist with just one airline.

[Led Zeppelin]

The way the Air NZ loan was structured was firstly about $ 300 million in cash, which was partially used to pay Ansett I think $ 150 or $ 180 million - I forget the exact amount. This was then converted into preference shares. The other $585 million from the NZ government was an outright share purchase. The net result is the NZ government has over 80% of the issued scrip.

Bear in mind this was the national carrier and the NZ government was never going to let it go. So they really had no other option than to take it over.

VAH is a very different situation and it will be challenging for the Australian government to find a way through this one.

Whichever way it goes, sadly jobs will disappear yet again.

[crosscutter]

Apologies...I can’t have been clear about the loan...I was meaning the most recent loan about a week ago.

The CEO:Foran said it was expected the airline would need to begin drawing on that within months because its outgoings were so high - monthly labour costs alone were $110m.

"Every dollar we use from this loan facility comes with interest (more than double current interest rates for a household mortgage) and must be re-paid."

Not a mates rates loan!

[coaldemon]

It has been many years since the Government entertained the idea of privatising or invested in an Airline company the size of VA, Having been through the AN issue almost 20 years ago there will be a lot of rumors about the Govt or a white Knight to save them. It didn't happen for AN so hopefully something happens for VA. Having been through it I feel for the Pilots a lot of who I know as it is not a good time. As for the Govt I can't see them doing it but you never know. Strange times.

[non_state_actor]

There is a slightly positive side to this, another airline will start up in the future to fill the vacuum (should it ever come to that), experienced airline staff will be able to find work again. Australia cannot exist with just one airline.

There has been ~4 major airlines go broke in 20 odd years. If 3 of the worlds major airlines can't make it work here why will anyone else? The previous management had it on a platter and they still cocked it up.

[B772]

T-Vasis. I hope you are ok. You have been very quiet the past few weeks. I could see VA were walking on a tightrope. I am not confident they can survive. There has to be massive changes with a new name without losing the tax loses. This will get rid of Branson and his annual ransom.

[Buster Hyman]

Legacy days where airlines were a viirtual licence to print money. Not today, they are businesses that require smarts, innovation and hard work to make money in a ruthless economic business environment. Nobody in todays Government could ever succeed in doing that.
So...no examples then. The duopoly was 'enacted' to maintain a viable commercial aviation industry. Deregulation occurred when it was obvious it wasn't necessary AND, to remove the 'Licence' to print money. (Both put in place by Politicians...and stop making me look like I'm defending them!)

[wheels_down]

Bamboo Airlines will soon probably announce its Australian launch with 200 Neos and a
100 777-9s. They will fly from every capital direct to the big apple and drop Neos all over domestic. Alan better watch out. Vietnam invasion coming soon.

[TACQANAVIAVEC]

It won't be a popular opinion but I think as it stands when QF gets back to flying there will be job losses and will likely come back a smaller airline, now assuming most here still believe in free markets and true capitalism then VA and QF should be left on their own.

If as most here have figured out VA goes under due to chronic long term miss-management then like in the Ansett days QF would have to pick up the slack, which means it will not only employ all of its staff but in addition a lot of VA ex employees.

At some stage of the game another airline will be born and new jobs created and a new cycle will begin once again. This is what free markets and true capitalism is all about. I would argue the same for any industry else we might just as well just give up and go all in on communism, Where kinda half way there anyway!

[John Citizen]

Government likely to reject Virgin bailout plea (https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/government-likely-to-reject-virgin-s-opening-1-4b-bailout-plea-20200331-p54fik)


Government set to reject Virgin's $1.4b opening gambit
Lucas Baird (https://www.afr.com/by/lucas-baird-h18hts) and Jemima Whyte (https://www.afr.com/by/jemima-whyte-gkpi1r)
Updated Mar 31, 2020 – 6.18pm,first published at 9.43am

The federal government looks set to reject Virgin Australia's initial request for a $1.4 billion bailout loan, as Qantas pressures its debt-laden rival by insisting any government assistance be proportional and tensions between the two airlines reach new heights.
Virgin has asked for a $1.4 billion loan to help it survive the coronavirus crisis. Bloomberg

Finance Minister Mathias Cormann said the government is committed to having two competitive domestic airlines, but didn't outline what any additional industry wide financial support might involve.

"It is not our plan to take a stake in an airline," Mr Cormann told the ABC. "But let me also say that on the other side of all of this, we are committed to ensuring that through our policy settings and the like that on the other side, that we have two competitive airlines."

The latest battle between the airlines on the form government assistance should take comes a week after Virgin complained to the competition regulator tnat (https://www.afr.com/link/follow-20180101-p54cuh)Qantas was spreading misinformation designed to undermine the smaller airline during the turmoil.

"At a time of crisis when so many companies are working to get things working for Australia, keep Australia afloat if you like, to have comments about 'survival of the fittest' and implications publicly made to allow Virgin to go under, I just think that's unhelpful," Mr Sims said at the time.
He declined to comment on Tuesday.

"I don't want to be seen as sending any messages, one way or the other," he said.

Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce has previously said: "If the government is helping, it should help an industry, not a particular company. Governments are not there to pick winners and losers".

The push for proportional funding at would equate to about $4.2 billion if Qantas were to receive similar funding to Virgin's requested $1.4 billion, based on revenue numbers.

Both airlines are likely to need further assistance, depending on how long their planes aren't flying due to COVID-19, but Virgin will need financial help sooner.

"Virgin has a massive liquidity issue," Air Intelligence and Research boss and former Qantas chief economist Tony Webber said. "They have had a run of losses, particularly in the international business, and it will need a quicker and faster bailout than any other airline in Australia."

Virgin has about $900 million left in the bank. However, ratings agency group Fitch said it expects this will come under pressure faster than it had previously anticipated during the crisis.

Citi analysts estimate that Qantas can survive 11 months of grounded planes, after it raised $1.05 billion in debt funding of up to ten years last week.

The federal government has already announced a $715 million support package for the aviation industry (https://www.afr.com/link/follow-20180101-p54b31), and close to $300 million more in assistance for regional airlines. (https://www.afr.com/link/follow-20180101-p54ezq)

Qantas and Virgin have between them stood down around 28,000 pilots, cabin crew and other workers in an attempt to cut costs while most of their aircraft are grounded.

Across the Tasman, Air New Zealand has cut 3500 jobs in response to the crisis.Qantas, Rex would seek similar funding dealsMr Webber said the government would have to prepare itself for similar requests from Qantas and Regional Express if it granted Virgin the loan.

"Particularly given Virgin's ownership structure — not to say Qantas and Rex do not have significant foreign shareholders, but they are not as significant as Virgin’s — you can bet Qantas and Rex will have their hands out too," he said.

Under Virgin's plan for a loan facility, taxpayers would lend the airline $1.4 billion for a term of two or three years. If Virgin was unable to meet its obligations, the cash would be converted into an equity stake.

This condition would have likely further complicate Virgin Australia's shareholding structure, only 10 per cent of which is a free-float. The other 90 per cent is held in varying levels by Singapore Airlines, Etihad, Nanshan, HNA and Richard Branson's Virgin group.

Virgin Australia has so far ruled out approaching any of its shareholders for a capital injection.

And sources close to Singapore Airlines, which recently raised $S19 billion ($21.6 billion), laughed off suggestion it would inject its new cash into or takeover Virgin as it is still managing its own response to the pandemic.Why a Virgin bailout call is trickier than $130b in wages (https://www.afr.com/chanticleer/virgin-bailout-trickier-call-than-wage-subsidy-20200331-p54fky)Mr Webber agreed. "I suspect their owners ... believe they have put enough into Virgin Australia, have their own problems due to the virus and don't want to put in any more cash," he said.

Tourism Australia chairman Bob East declined to comment on government assistance but said two competitive airlines were crucial to a successful tourism industry. Mr East sits on the Tourism Australia board with both Virgin chief executive Paul Scurrah and Qantas' Alan Joyce.

"We really do need a sustainable, competitive aviation sector....that fuels tourism. It's really the backbone of the proposition a nation has to offer," he said. He noted that travel around Australia relied on competitive domestic carriers, adding that 70 per cent of international visitors to Cairns arrived on a domestic flight.

[-41]

Nah QQ will buy VA from the ashes :) that will give Alan a true competitor.

[longjohn]

-41..I think this is the fairest scenario. Let market forces dictate the outcome. If the banks wont lend more and nor will the shareholders, surely does that not speak to past business decisions? These are the stakeholders who should wear the pain.

As for the employees, there will be a new airline, coming soon, rising like a phoenix from the ashes.

Of course VA staff will need to accept much lower $$, but in return they will go back to being part of a competitive, successful airline.

If you want to know what happens when the second major airline collapses, just look back 19 years. Competition returned, LCC’s grew, fares came down, employment increased.

The Government should not pump air into a flat tire, rather let market forces replace it.

[Des Dimona]

Virgin notes (ASX: VAHHA) are trading at less than 50% with a market capitalisation of < $ 500 million. There is no capacity to generate enough income to trade out of this while COVID is around.

VAH investors are looking to shore up their own core companies and so far, have failed to come to the table, and it seems unlikely the Australian government will fund a commercial bail out.

Isn't it time to preserve the remaining cash for staff payouts rather than throw good money after bad?

There will be a better airline that will rise from this.

[Chris2303]

The net result is the NZ government has over 80% of the issued scrip.

I'm sorry, I don't understand how you can own 80% of the issued scrip and still have only a 52% shareholding?

[Led Zeppelin]

After the $885 million injection, yes the New Zealand government had over 80%. It's since been diluted.

[Danny104]

As a QF driver, I really do hope Virgin get through this and it must be a very difficult time.
If the government hadn’t let every Tom, Dick and Harry government funded airline fly 20 A380’s a day into Australia,Virgin international would have had a chance to prosper and not drain so much capital from the rest of the business.
Good luck guys hope we both make it to the other side !

[strobes_on]

I agree - this country really needs 2 airlines for healthy competition - even if the current iteration of VAH folds, there is sure to be a much leaner Virgin Australia to follow on the other side.

[B772]

It appears VAH are looking to raise funds by selling their unencumbered B777-300ERs. Based on what Etihad received for their B777-300ERs the best VAH could expect in the current climate is just USD30M per pop. Sad days to be even sadder later in the year. With both Airbus and Boeing suspending production of new aircraft until further notice this in theory will help support the used aircraft market.

[DanV2]

I agree - this country really needs 2 airlines for healthy competition - even if the current iteration of VAH folds, there is sure to be a much leaner Virgin Australia to follow on the other side.

Even if VAH in its current form files for administration, the "mk 2" carrier thar rises from the ashes by the administrators may not actually carry the "Virgin" name. Purely to save on $$ licensing fees to Branson himself.

Whatever airline(s) rises from a VAH bankruptcy may be called something else instead of 'Virgin Australia'.

[Lapon]

surely does that not speak to past business decisions?

That mentality is exaclty what needs to be put aside.
It's the business going foward that needs to be considered, not past mis management.
My speculation as an outsider is that a new VA will closer resemble the original company anyway.

I think it's nothing more than childish for AJ saying Qantas should get $4B+ if virgin get thier $1.4B. Some of the populous get goverment handouts that I dont because they NEED them. Just because my neighbour gets a dole payment doesnt mean I need to (yet) :rolleyes:

[Led Zeppelin]

Virgin 777s have small cargo doors - that will really knock the value down.

[junior.VH-LFA]

That mentality is exaclty what needs to be put aside.
It's the business going foward that needs to be considered, not past mis management.
My speculation as an outsider is that a new VA will closer resemble the original company anyway.

I think it's nothing more than childish for AJ saying Qantas should get $4B+ if virgin get thier $1.4B. Some of the populous get goverment handouts that I dont because they NEED them. Just because my neighbour gets a dole payment doesnt mean I need to (yet) :rolleyes:

I don't have a dog in this "fight" at all, but you can't compare the dole and individuals to a foreign owned corporation that has directly been mismanaged to the position its in. It is entirely fair Qantas receive proportional support, VA shouldn't be allowed to end up in a better relative position because of government support and end up on a level playing field because QF didn't get the same support (yes, overly simplified for sure, but you know what I mean). COVID-19 appears to be the final nail in the coffin for VA, but it sure wasn't the first one.

The only argument you can make for a VA bailout is that it will benefit Australian's with increased competition; without that, there is very little incentive for a bailout. It will be interesting to see how all of this plays out.

Regardless, the hurt is going to be real for all their employee's, and I wish everyone the absolute best of luck and fortune,

[WINJA]

The business (or work) was there and will probably return with time after this covid thing. As to who actually does it remains to be seen.

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

It appears VAH are looking to raise funds by selling their unencumbered B777-300ERs. Based on what Etihad received for their B777-300ERs the best VAH could expect in the current climate is just USD30M per pop. Sad days to be even sadder later in the year. With both Airbus and Boeing suspending production of new aircraft until further notice this in theory will help support the used aircraft market.

Any source for this?

I’m not doubting you, but I would be interested to read any first hand information. A quick google search didn’t show up any articles.

[non_state_actor]

Virgin 777s have small cargo doors - that will really knock the value down.

I think they are going to rue that decision for a while longer yet.

[Lapon]

is entirely fair Qantas receive proportional support, VA shouldn't be allowed to end up in a better relative position because of government support

Except its not entirely fair and that's the issue. Virgin actually have a need for the funding to survive, Qantas at this stage are merely saying 'if he gets some I want some'.

Remember Qantas is not Australian owned either (admittedly more so that VA). The relevance of a funding agreement cannot be limited by who owns most of the company, as at the end of the day nearly every employee, contractor, and supplier IS Australian.

All going to plan the loan is repaid and no harm done, or it's not and the goverment takes an equity stake of a size none of us know - perhaps more than half. All of a sudden VA will no longer be majority foreign owned anyway.

Of course the cards might all collapse anyway but if that is delayed a couple of years then in all likeliness the rest of the economy will be in a better position to absorb the fall out.

[vee1-rotate]

Even if VAH in its current form files for administration, the "mk 2" carrier thar rises from the ashes by the administrators may not actually carry the "Virgin" name. Purely to save on $$ licensing fees to Branson himself.

Whatever airline(s) rises from a VAH bankruptcy may be called something else instead of 'Virgin Australia'.

Let's hope so. It was helpful I'm sure, in building a brand for the LCC version of Virgin Blue, but they should have tossed it and the ridiculous licensing fees many years ago. Stupidity.

[Buster Hyman]

It is entirely fair Qantas receive proportional support, VA shouldn't be allowed to end up in a better relative position because of government support and end up on a level playing field because QF didn't get the same support (yes, overly simplified for sure, but you know what I mean)
The irony being that QF were gifted an entire Domestic Airline to set it on it's path back in the day. AN, at the time, had to build and invest in an International airline to match it but with the 2 clowns that held the reigns at the time were hardly forthcoming with funds.

[Slezy9]

I think they are going to rue that decision for a while longer yet.

Interesting that sale and lease back was being discussed in 2009, back then it was estimated that each A/C could fetch $100 million.

SMH - Small cargo door restricts Virgin (https://www.smh.com.au/business/small-cargo-door-restricts-virgin-20090726-dxj9.html)

[coaldemon]

You would be lucky to get a third of that price for a 12 year old B777. Even less for some A330's.