Kobe Bryant killed in S76 crash [Archive]

foxcharliep2

26th Jan 2020, 19:17

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51256756

US basketball legend Kobe Bryant has been killed in a helicopter crash in California, US media report.

Bryant was travelling in a private helicopter when it burst into flames above the city of Calabasas, according to the reports.

The LA County Sheriff's department said that five people died in a helicopter crash in Calabasas on Sunday, with no survivors.

It did not immediately publish any names.

It said it received reports of the crash at about 10:00 local time (18:00 GMT).

Five-time NBA champion Bryant, 41, played his entire 20-year career with the Los Angeles Lakers. He retired in April 2016.

Bryant's achievements include being the 2008 NBA Most Valuable Player and two-time NBA Finals MVP. He was also two-time NBA scoring champion and a two-time Olympic champion.

He also won an Oscar for best short animated film in 2018 for for Dear Basketball, a five-minute film based on a love letter to the sport he had written in 2015.

pattern_is_full

26th Jan 2020, 19:26

Photos purported to be from near the scene show very low clouds, and some obscured hills.

In what may be a sad coincidence, the town directly north of Calabasas is named.....Hidden Hills.

https://www.vvng.com/tmz-kobe-bryant-and-others-killed-in-calabasas-helicopter-crash/

Airbubba

26th Jan 2020, 19:34

Apparently N72EX.

From FlightRadar24:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/735x599/kobe_ea2d81325758f7bb31a1592ecaaeb274a206ccbd.jpg

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n72ex#23a8271e

FlightAware:

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1365x529/kobe_2_c93632d81dff32e39e113ee528d98980169ae864.jpg

FlightAware tracklog:

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N72EX/history/20200126/1708Z/tracklog

Arnie Madsen

26th Jan 2020, 19:39

.

......... the helicopter he was traveling in crashed and burst into flames Sunday morning amid foggy conditions in the hills above Calabasas, sources told the Los Angeles Times.

Helisweet

26th Jan 2020, 19:42

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scud_running

Custard Cream

26th Jan 2020, 19:50

13yr old daughter apparently on board also.

Why would it have circled like it did at Pasadena?

nomorehelosforme

26th Jan 2020, 19:57

Some news stations reporting at least one of Kobe’s children were on board.

Airbubba

26th Jan 2020, 19:58

From the FR24 data it appears that the helo was following the Ventura Freeway westbound before taking a turn back east toward the hills.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1144x664/kobe_3_48b9a3b99cfaedf37f2d3afb422e2befc5d94ce7.jpg

Ripper3785

26th Jan 2020, 19:59

Some news stations reporting at least one of Kobe’s children were on board.

ABC reported briefly that all of his kids were on board. That didn't add up and seems to have been an error.

Custard Cream

26th Jan 2020, 20:04

Live video from the crash site shows quite a large debris field.

Raph737

26th Jan 2020, 20:19

Just read that his oldest daughter, 13yo Gianna was onboard. Debris field looks there was some sort of breakage before it hit the ground? Anyone with expertise would share their thoughts? Any other basketball fans there would be heavy hearted.

hard_yakka

26th Jan 2020, 20:31

13yr old daughter apparently on board also.

Why would it have circled like it did at Pasadena?

Closer to Glendale than Pasadena. Lots of sights there. LA Zoo, Griffith Park, Forest Lawn. Perhaps someone on board lived near there and they were circling their house...?
Could be anything. It was a private helicopter. The owner could ask the pilot to circle anywhere for a better look at anything I guess.
Very sad.

sherburn2LA

26th Jan 2020, 20:36

Quote:
Originally Posted by Custard Cream
Why would it have circled like it did at Pasadena?

Waiting for a clearance to the Burbank class C perhaps

Arnie Madsen

26th Jan 2020, 20:37

.

...... the pilot had pretty much been following The Ventura Freeway (valley) ..... heading westerly toward the Mamba Acadamy (destination) (aprox another 20-30 miles) to the west when flight aware shows a sudden turn south and then east into the hill ..... blue arrow shows route to the academy ....

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1396x535/kobie_bryant_786df356377e1683bd1d9c2a2785651d4bb1578b.jpg

hr2pilot

26th Jan 2020, 20:41

Last moments on FR24 data shows sharp increase in altitude with associated loss of airspeed. Possible flight towards rising terrain in low vis conditions and attempted emergency climb/turn/stall?

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/320x296/0e526117_fd0a_4768_899b_e7dd217260db_b593b6783776f809d55299c b48b7d451ed56fce9.jpeg

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1792x828/7df7ad1c_1a76_4941_8fc0_b4fd107bbbc2_28c4e898fd0fb57869c41f1 a6a714d597ce9bbad.png

hard_yakka

26th Jan 2020, 20:44

Last ping on the FR24 track has the chopper with a ground speed of 153kts descending through 1700'.

Crash photo shows debris spread over a fair area. Impact with quite a bit of forward speed, perhaps? CFIT or mechanical?

Bloody sad.

Caboclo

26th Jan 2020, 21:07

Are these aircraft equipped with EGPWS?

Hot and Hi

26th Jan 2020, 21:17

Are these aircraft equipped with EGPWS?
It’s not an airliner.

joema

26th Jan 2020, 21:20

Are these aircraft equipped with EGPWS?

Yes, EGPWS is standard equipment on the S-76D, as is a CVR and FDR.

MikeNYC

26th Jan 2020, 21:22

Yes, EGPWS is standard equipment on the S-76D, as is a CVR and FDR.

This wasn't a -D, this was a S76B, from 1991.

Photos of the cockpit in old registration...avionics could have been updated: https://www.helis.com/database/cn/51524/

The Sultan

26th Jan 2020, 21:23

HaH

Many helicopters of that class have EGPWS.

OttoRotate

26th Jan 2020, 21:27

To anyone suggesting "sightseeing" as an explanation for the circles seen on the flight path, I think another possibility could be that they were put into a holding pattern by ATC waiting for traffic to clear. Might be a more probable explanation given the weather.

GarageYears

26th Jan 2020, 21:32

Witnesses on the ground reported the engines “spluttering” before the crash

AAKEE

26th Jan 2020, 21:39

Last moments on FR24 data shows sharp increase in altitude with associated loss of airspeed.

You might want to check again which color that is what on FR24...

Hot and Hi

26th Jan 2020, 21:43

In a press briefing this morning the sheriff stated that 1 pilot plus all 8 pax have perished in this accident. Total 9 fatalities.

gulliBell

26th Jan 2020, 21:48

Last data points showing sink rate 5000 fpm and 160 kts GS, and erratic GS and VS just prior, that is not a helicopter being flown normally. Actually the data points don't make much sense at all.

MikeNYC

26th Jan 2020, 21:56

ATC recordings have them requesting Special VFR after being told multiple en route areas are reporting IFR conditions

helimutt

26th Jan 2020, 21:58

Last data points showing sink rate 5000 fpm and 160 kts GS, and erratic GS and VS just prior, that is not a helicopter being flown normally. Actually the data points don't make much sense at all.

FR24, unreliable with signals in a hilly area. I wouldn’t take too much from the info given. What it does show is an increase in speed right at the last moment and a decrease in altitude (dive?) but FR24 cant reliably be taken as real accurate Flight Data info.

Joejosh999

26th Jan 2020, 22:01

How meaningful is request for special VFR?

Sir Korsky

26th Jan 2020, 22:08

9 up in a B model. That's pushing range and CG.

gulliBell

26th Jan 2020, 22:12

It's meaningful because it suggests the weather was unsuitable for visual navigation, and the pilot needed to see where he was going to get to where he wanted to go. Which, I would think, is a more challenging option than changing flight category, turning around, and perform an instrument approach back where you've departed from.

thcrozier

26th Jan 2020, 22:22

https://forums.liveatc.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15767.0;attach=10604

References to 5, 134, 118, 405, and 101 are Freeways.

101 runs from Van Nuys westward past crash site to Camarillo, the apparent destination.

kenish

26th Jan 2020, 22:23

ThreeThreeMike

26th Jan 2020, 22:24

Last data points showing sink rate 5000 fpm and 160 kts GS, and erratic GS and VS just prior, that is not a helicopter being flown normally. Actually the data points don't make much sense at all.

Proving, for the umpteenth time, that FR24 ground, altitude, and airspeed traces are not always reliable for interpreting the actions of an aircraft prior to a crash.

Ascend Charlie

26th Jan 2020, 22:40

9 up in a B model. That's pushing range and CG.

Eh???
There are seats for 14 in an S76, be it a B or not. The B has the PT-6 engines and can happily carry the full load, no cg problems, but with less than full fuel. With 5 less pax, there is plenty of fuel and no cg problems at all.

Could the "sputtering" be a bit of blade slap as he did a few tight turns?

Munchie

26th Jan 2020, 22:50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0pQfgi9ZqU&feature=em-uploademail

gulliBell

26th Jan 2020, 23:05

Eh???
Could the "sputtering" be a bit of blade slap as he did a few tight turns?

Sure could be. I don't believe for a second there was anything mechanically wrong with the helicopter that would account for the accident.

nomorehelosforme

26th Jan 2020, 23:14

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0pQfgi9ZqU&feature=em-uploademail

That is a bone chilling recording.... very very tragic

CityofFlight

26th Jan 2020, 23:15

Here in the US, reports say 9 people on board. Kobe and passengers on way to daughter's basketball training. Wx turned to ****.

Not a pilot and know enough to be dangerous, but trying to understand, based on speed graph above, how Sikorsky 76-B could fly to 50 knots with that many onboard? If so, that's impressive.

Feedback welcome. I love learning.

Sir Korsky

26th Jan 2020, 23:23

Eh???
There are seats for 14 in an S76, be it a B or not. The B has the PT-6 engines and can happily carry the full load, no cg problems, but with less than full fuel. With 5 less pax, there is plenty of fuel and no cg problems at all.

have you ever flown a B with a corporate interior? I thought not.

malabo

26th Jan 2020, 23:30

That is a bone chilling recording.... very very tragic

Bone-chilling? Sounded routine to me, average joe helicopter pilot driving around in wx just below VFR limits (2.5 mile vs 3 mile) for controlled airspace, hence the hold and requests for Special VFR. Well within the capability and daily norm for a helicopter. Pilot sounded competent, relaxed, knew what he was doing and to negotiate with the complex ATC for helicopter routes in that area. You guys can download the LAX helicopter chart to better follow what he was doing. EGPWS if they had it is a non-factor in that kind of flying, in fact it is a hazardous distraction.

havick

26th Jan 2020, 23:35

Bone-chilling? Sounded routine to me, average joe helicopter pilot driving around in wx just below VFR limits (2.5 mile vs 3 mile) for controlled airspace, hence the hold and requests for Special VFR. Well within the capability and daily norm for a helicopter. Pilot sounded competent, relaxed, knew what he was doing and to negotiate with the complex ATC for helicopter routes in that area. You guys can download the LAX helicopter chart to better follow what he was doing. EGPWS if they had it is a non-factor in that kind of flying, in fact it is a hazardous distraction.

Any details on the pilot or if the aircraft was managed by a company?

Any powerlines in the area?

thcrozier

26th Jan 2020, 23:57

Wx turned to ****.

Weather was **** out here all morning. It turned better this afternoon.

Gomrath

27th Jan 2020, 00:02

I live about 80 miles/130km SE from the crash site, but the terrain and microclimates are similar. I was mountain biking and there was a low-lying fog layer about 100-200 feet thick, with a broken around 3000-5000 feet (my estimate).

Another mountain biker and IFR-rated pilot was interviewed. He was first on the crash scene and said there was very dense fog with 3-4 feet of viz. They heard the S76 just before and during impact but did not see it. However, witnesses in the general area (I know those accounts turn out inaccurate) saw the helo "falter" and "sputter", and then steeply descend. So there seemed to be good visibility elsewhere.

The coastal scud in that area blows in from the west along Hwy 101 and hugs low-lying terrain. My very early speculation- they were VFR on top over a patchy ground fog layer in the canyon. A mechanical issue forced a descent into IFR and terrain.
I live 1 mile from the crash site. This morning I was at that location 10 minutes before the accident and viz was about 1/4 mile. The weather
does not blow in from the west but rather the marine layer comes up Malibu Canyon from the south and usually burns off by late morning. However, this morning it was really damp unusual weather and definitely IMC conditions. The helicopter came westbound along the 101, then turned S across Agoura Rd then E where it crashed into the hillside. Without wishing to speculate, I wondered if the pilot was attempting for the Lost Hills Sheriff's Dept Helipad. Had he continued West along the 101 for another 20 seconds then turned S across Agoura Rd , he would have been over the helipad. However with
1/4 mile viz at the surface at best, it may have been difficult to spot.

malabo

27th Jan 2020, 00:06

No power lines shown on map. Couple helipads nearby.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x1624/04dcdf5a_0684_4f03_bb8a_40ee0d16138c_e231db4590d4e7e965028a2 c9be626a6a457b379.png

JP.Robinson

27th Jan 2020, 00:12

rotorrookie

27th Jan 2020, 00:38

Not the best machine to be in doing "I follow road" in marginal VFR conditions, at low speeds the nose pitches up so high that you have very limited veiw forward and thight 180 turn is difficult.
The S-76 is minimum two pilots right? From report it looks there just one pilot.. perhaps not IFR rated

very sad event 😥

Rated De

27th Jan 2020, 00:41

Was the helicopter and PIC certified IFR?

From the tower transmissions it seems a tricky proposition maintaining VMC on a day like that.
Not a criticism, simply asking those that know!

Old Dogs

27th Jan 2020, 00:54

Sir Korsky

27th Jan 2020, 00:57

Nope, you can fly it VFR single pilot.

and single pilot IFR

Old Dogs

27th Jan 2020, 01:23

and single pilot IFR
Yup, I left that out because IFR does not seem to be the pilot's intent in this case.

Also, you cannot fly the S-76 single pilot IFR in Canada and many other parts of the world.

Airbubba

27th Jan 2020, 01:25

Here is the final minute of ADS-B data as posted on the FlightRadar24 blog:

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/974x668/kobe_4_d0c95488fc737d871e4fa61bd07fe21bcbc16930.jpg

thcrozier

27th Jan 2020, 01:44

Does the 101 rise up along that stretch of 101 before Conejo Grade?, maybe he was trying to do a 180 as the ceiling dropped over the highway? Mountain obscuration all day out here in Vandenburg, little bird is parked.

Driving westbound on the 101, the road falls sharply as you approach the Las Virgenes exit (the accident site). Passing Las Virgenes it rises slowly as you continue westbound toward Westlake Village and Thousand Oaks. The Conejo Grade is a sharp drop taking you on to the coastal plain and Camarillo. They didn't make it that far.

sprag47

27th Jan 2020, 01:44

Bone-chilling? Sounded routine to me, average joe helicopter pilot driving around in wx just below VFR limits (2.5 mile vs 3 mile) for controlled airspace, hence the hold and requests for Special VFR. Well within the capability and daily norm for a helicopter. Pilot sounded competent, relaxed, knew what he was doing and to negotiate with the complex ATC for helicopter routes in that area. You guys can download the LAX helicopter chart to better follow what he was doing. EGPWS if they had it is a non-factor in that kind of flying, in fact it is a hazardous distraction.

This. Finally a sensible post.
Wx-related acccident...not due to a "sputtering" turbine engine(s).

Old Dogs

27th Jan 2020, 01:46

really? wow !
There is provision to fly certain types single-pilot IFR because they were certified that way. The Bell 222 comes to mind.

The S-76 was certified two-pilot IFR.

However, even if a helicopter was certified single-pilot IFR you cannot provide a commercial IFR service without two pilots.

rotormatic

27th Jan 2020, 02:03

SASless

27th Jan 2020, 02:04

Folks.....now is not the time to be posted names of those lost in this tragedy.

How about showing some courtesy and deleting your posts until the family and friends have time to learn of the loss of their family and friends through official means.

Paul Cantrell

27th Jan 2020, 02:13

There is provision to fly certain types single-pilot IFR because they were certified that way. The Bell 222 comes to mind.

The S-76 was certified two-pilot IFR.

However, even if a helicopter was certified single-pilot IFR you cannot provide a commercial IFR service without two pilots.

The unique thing about the Bell 222 was that it was single pilot IFR without an autopilot. A local company ( Digital Equipment Corporation ) had the high time 222 back in the 1980s. The machine was stable enough that it was certified SPIFR without an autopilot, although one of their pilots complained to me that the workload could be high, hand flying it IFR. ( I'm sure folding charts was fun ). To be clear regarding rotormatic's posting of the pertinent reg, this was a Part 91 operator operating SPIFR without an autopilot.

Again regarding the regs, as pointed out by rotormatic in the US a Part 135 operator can be SPIFR with an autopilot.

Old Dogs

27th Jan 2020, 02:13

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/135.105
FAA rules only apply in the United States, they do not apply to the rest of the world.

industry insider

27th Jan 2020, 02:21

S-76A was certified SPIFR in the UK with the SPZ 7000 and Single Pilot IMC outside of notified controlled airspace with Hamilton Standard Phase 2.

Airbubba

27th Jan 2020, 02:22

An update on the crash and the victims:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7931909/Kobe-Bryant-dies-Calabasas-helicopter-crash.html

mnttech

27th Jan 2020, 02:25

From the FAA TCDS
NOTE 15: 1-pilot IFR is approved for Models S-76A, S-76B, S-76C, and S-76D when appropriately equipped and operating in accordance with a flight manual or flight manual supplement that allows such operation. For Models S-76A, S-76B, and S-76C, 1-pilot IFR operation requirements include installation of an SPZ-7000 Digital Automatic Flight Control System by STC or an SPZ-7600 Digital Automatic Flight Control System by STC or as optional equipment. The following Honeywell Flight Manual Supplements relate to 1-pilot IFR operations with the SPZ-7000:
So the aircraft could have been IFR, depending on the equipment
Operations as noted above
HTAWS is required under HAA, 135 Subpart L Helicopter Air Ambulance Equipment, Operations, and Training Requirements

aa5bpilot

27th Jan 2020, 02:32

I'm a fixed wing pilot. First some data, then some questions for the helo pilots here...

METARs and PIREPs around the time of the crash show the marine layer bases were around 1500' and tops around 2500', with marginal visibility:

KBUR 261753Z 00000KT 2 1/2SM HZ OVC011 12/09 A3016 ; KBUR is 778 MSL so suggests bases of 1800' or so.
KVNY 261751Z 00000KT 2 1/2SM HZ OVC013 12/09 A3016 ; KVNY is 802 MSL so suggests bases of 2100'
KCMA 261755Z 03003KT 4SM HZ OVC017 15/11 A3019 ; KCMA is 77 MSL so bases of 1700' or so.

CMA UA /OV 08002/TM 1620/FL012/TP RV8/SK BASES AT 013 TOPS AT 026
SNA UA /OV KSNA180005/TM 1715/FL027/TP B737/SK OVC027-TOP
LGB UA /OV LGB200005/TM 1748/FL022/TP DA42/SK OVC012-TOP022

According to the USGS Topo maps I have of the area, the highway elevation along the 101 tops out around 1100' just to the east of Las Virgines Rd, with hills up to 2000' to the north and south. Approaching Las Virgines, the highway dips into a valley and is at about 760' elevation. Two private helipads in the area are charted at 850' and 888'. Further west, the highway rises back to around 900' before descending through the Conejo Grade towards Camarillo.

Tracks posted upthread show N72EX was following US-101, at an altitude around 1200'. This suggests they were flying in hazy conditions just below the cloud deck. While the conditions were certainly marginal, they appear to have done just fine following the 101, and had already passed the highest portion of the highway along their route. (The south/east-bound turn started west of Las Virgines)

Assuming the FR24 and FA data are to be believed, N72EX then turned to the south/east, and possibly started a climb before the crash. My questions:
1) Are inadvertent IMC procedures the same for helos as fixed wing - that is, doing a 180? I'd imagine there are more options including trying to slow, hover, or try to set down short of a cloud bank if one sees it looming, or is that not practical?
2) What is the maximum climb capability of the S-76? (i.e. how long to get on top of a 1000' foot cloud layer, if required)
Putting it differently:
3) Are there any circumstances where a helo pilot would choose to turn and climb like that, knowing it would put them into a cloud especially if they weren't already?

sprag47

27th Jan 2020, 02:35

Ascend Charlie

27th Jan 2020, 02:43

From Sir Korsky:
have you ever flown a B with a corporate interior? I thought not.

You didn't wait for my answer.

Yes I operated the only B in the country (at the time), kitted for VVIP, one row of seats removed for extra space, for 6 years. Magnificent machine, dual digital everything, single pilot IFR, TCAS, satphone, the lot.

No unfixable cg problems at any time or load, even with heavies like Tom Cruise or Prince Harry on board, along with their hordes of minders. Judicious use of the cargo compartment and less fuel kept the front-heavy bird in limits.

For this run, my Excel spreadsheet shows 2 in the front, 3 in the middle row, 4 in the back row, 108 gal gas, just inside limits vertical and fwd.

Don't be too quick to judge, Cadet Korsky.

Nescafe

27th Jan 2020, 03:25

don't be too quick to judge, cadet korsky.

💥

.

kenish

27th Jan 2020, 03:52

I live 1 mile from the crash site. This morning I was at that location 10 minutes before the accident and viz was about 1/4 mile. The weather
does not blow in from the west but rather the marine layer comes up Malibu Canyon from the south and usually burns off by late morning. However, this morning it was really damp unusual weather and definitely IMC conditions. The helicopter came westbound along the 101, then turned S across Agoura Rd then E where it crashed into the hillside. Without wishing to speculate, I wondered if the pilot was attempting for the Lost Hills Sheriff's Dept Helipad. Had he continued West along the 101 for another 20 seconds then turned S across Agoura Rd , he would have been over the helipad. However with
1/4 mile viz at the surface at best, it may have been difficult to spot.

Thanks for the clarifications to my post. You were very close to the location and time of the crash. It was unusually damp here in Orange County too; as mentioned I was mountain biking. We started in dense fog around 1000MSL and broke out of the top at around 1300 where it was 20+ mile visibility but under a higher broken layer. Sounds like the ground fog layer was a lot thicker in your area.

Paul Cantrell

27th Jan 2020, 04:28

The helicopter was VFR scudrunning...he wasn't on an IFR flight plan.

Which brings up the question for the guys who fly IFR in LA, how much delay would they have encountered had they filed from John Wayne to Camarillo? I see some IFR ATC clearances that go over LAX and probably hit the RNAV 26 at Camarillo that basically fly the I5/101 route that he ended up flying VFR. Most of the TEC routes I see would only add 10 miles to the direct route ( and the VFR helicopter route would have added at least that ).

Given the delays he had at Burbank and Van Nuys, maybe it would have been faster IFR? ( although it never seems to work out that way ).

I’m not trying to second guess the pilot so much as wonder how well the IFR system works in SOCAL for light aircraft? Especially on a almost VFR day... Here in Boston we almost never get delays filing IFR to the Cape and Islands, but of course it’s not nearly as congested here as LA. I’ve flown a fair bit out there, but only VFR... Seems a shame to not use the IFR capability of the S76 to its fullest. Also, with the limited amount of stick time I have in that aircraft, it doesn’t seem to be the best for scud running from a visibility standpoint ( the panel is pretty darn big ).

Geosync

27th Jan 2020, 04:51

Most common routing is KSNA SLI POPPR SMO VNY KCMA. I’m willing to bet that after SMO(clear of LAX) they get direct KCMA. But I tend to fly VFR(if in a small piston) down there just because it’s quicker than getting delayed behind the airline traffic at SNA/BUR and corporate jets at VNY, so I’m not sure if that is normal. But I think they were landing by his camp, not actually at KCMA. Which if so, VFR would make sense in that if above or in the soup, he’d be stuck without an approach. If it was airport to airport, no need for a helicopter in the first place...unless that’s just how he rolled.

172driver

27th Jan 2020, 05:13

Ceilings along the coast up to KCMA were in the 1200 - 1500 ft region this morning, so that could have worked. However, getting to the sports academy they were going to, would have meant a climb into the marine layer going inland from KCMA.

Kulwin Park

27th Jan 2020, 05:29

I live 1 mile from the crash site. This morning I was at that location 10 minutes before the accident and viz was about 1/4 mile. The weather
does not blow in from the west but rather the marine layer comes up Malibu Canyon from the south and usually burns off by late morning. However, this morning it was really damp unusual weather and definitely IMC conditions. The helicopter came westbound along the 101, then turned S across Agoura Rd then E where it crashed into the hillside. Without wishing to speculate, I wondered if the pilot was attempting for the Lost Hills Sheriff's Dept Helipad. Had he continued West along the 101 for another 20 seconds then turned S across Agoura Rd , he would have been over the helipad. However with
1/4 mile viz at the surface at best, it may have been difficult to spot.

Gomrath, you're reply sounds like you know the area, and a good explanation.

My question to the others: If it was a CFIT and if they were genuinely lost in IMC conditions, why in a helicopter would you slow down to a 'Hover' or 20-40 kts on the nose, establish where you are, what helipad or oval is nearby to land, and then assess a better track to the basketball stadium whilst racking VMC. The helicopter has a luxury of flying slow, not decreasing height, increasing speed as the graphs show. Is this the view of heli pilots - or does commercial pressure make you fly the client faster to the destination whilst on a thrill ride?

Bell_ringer

27th Jan 2020, 05:40

Don't you think there might have been a lot of pressure from the pax? To me this one sounds almost like a classic get-there-itis where the pilot just didn't have the guts to utter the magic word: no. Sad in any case.

Ineviatably in these types of accidents there is a real or self-inflicted pressure.
With a VVIP/celeb the desire to not disappoint, or rather impress, starts lining up the holes.
No father would put the life of their kids at risk.
The pilot came up a long way short of what was expected of him.

Bell_ringer

27th Jan 2020, 05:50

My question to the others: If it was a CFIT and if they were genuinely lost in IMC conditions, why in a helicopter would you slow down to a 'Hover' or 20-40 kts on the nose, establish where you are, what helipad or oval is nearby to land, and then assess a better track to the basketball stadium whilst racking VMC. The helicopter has a luxury of flying slow, not decreasing height, increasing speed as the graphs show. Is this the view of heli pilots - or does commercial pressure make you fly the client faster to the destination whilst on a thrill ride?

Options are only useful if you choose to use them.
If I had to speculate, I doubt this would have been the first time the pilot had done this, so you end up with a belief that you got away with it before, therefore you will again.
If you put it down to live to see another day, chances are that people with clipboards will come and ask awkward questions about why a VFR pilot is flying around in the soup.
When left with no other options, then keeping the ground in sight and remaining slow enough to avoid obstacles would increase your odds somewhat but will attract the attention of the authorities.

Arnie Madsen

27th Jan 2020, 05:54

..

Shortly after impact one the first videos was taken from the rear parking lot of The Water Treatment Plant at #4232 Las Virgenes Road in the town of Calabasas .

It is on the outskirts of town , bordered by the hills , and helicopter went down about 1/4 mile (400-500 Yards) from where the video was shot ..... substantial flames are still coming off the wreckage and are visible but the fog practically obscures the ground .... and obviously the hills are not visible .

A bit later the fog has dissipated somewhat ..... the ground is now partly visible .... firefighters have arrived in the parking lot .... and what looks like a B212 rescue heli slowly hovers toward the scene

A question for the folks who live in the area and have posted here (thank you) .... how "quickly" can the fog roll in or change .... do you think it could have enveloped the pilot before he could react ??

The video is from the Daily Mail article ..... scroll way down to find it (3:25 minutes)

Airbubba

27th Jan 2020, 05:57

And for the record, the 50 year-old accident pilot did have an instrument rating:

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1111x629/ara_8504b7894d1e4d2f610d1531c2472e5a3aee317c.jpg

According to the LA Times, Kobe once had the pilot do some extra maneuvers to impress Lakers General Manager Rob Pelinka:

Shortly after his retirement, the two set out on a helicopter ride and Bryant didn’t tell Pelinka of his daredevil plan. Bryant and the pilot looked at each other and Bryant nodded subtly. Suddenly, to Pelinka’s horror, the helicopter zoomed into military maneuvers designed to terrify the passengers , with the coup de grace coming near the end when the pilot shut off the engine in midair.“My life was flashing before my eyes,” Pelinka told The Times. “I almost had a heart attack. Kobe’s just sitting there calm and collected.”

The helicopter floated toward the ground. After a few moments of thrill/panic, the pilot turned the engine back on and brought the two old friends to safety.

https://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/la-sp-kobe-retirement-20171217-story.html

gulliBell

27th Jan 2020, 06:06

..
... and what looks like a B212 rescue heli slowly hovers toward the scene..

B412 actually. Anyway, the debris field looks to me as the helicopter was inverted and at high speed when it hit the ground. Such is the totality of destruction.

n5296s

27th Jan 2020, 06:06

I just worked through the last few FR24 data points. There is no way this was horizontal CFIT. If you extrapolate one more data point, they would have been at 1300 feet and the rising terrain would be at about 1100. Not exactly a generous margin, but six inches is enough! The pictures suggest they did not actually fly into a hillside, though they would have done soon.

BUT... the final recorded speed is 153, 2 knots below Vne (155 according to Wikipedia), So extrapolating for a few seconds they would have been well above Vne. Maybe an S76 pilot on here has some idea of where RBS happens? In any case they were headed down at ~5000 fpm in a steep left bank, not a good starting point.

As others have said, why was he pressing on at 130 in these conditions? Personally in a heli I'd be at walking speed!

Below are the last few FR24 data points - note that the turn rate towards the end is approaching 360 degrees/minute (quick calculation says about 40-45 degree bank). I used them to draw a crude map on top of the topo map: https://caltopo.com/m/P69T

I know people shouldn't speculate, maybe it was mechanical failure, yadda yadda. But honestly...

-- pilot already knows he's flying close to the limits
-- hill looms up out of the murk
-- oh sh!t!
-- loads of aft cyclic/collective/left cyclic
-- enters cloud, not prepared for a sudden transition to the gauges
-- loses it

Time Lat Long Alt V Hdg
2020-01-26T17:44:13Z N72EX 34.149902,-118.664902 1250 130 258
2020-01-26T17:44:39Z N72EX 34.151505,-118.684235 1250 131 278
2020-01-26T17:44:49Z N72EX 34.151321,-118.691078 1525 118 257
2020-01-26T17:45:00Z N72EX 34.148861,-118.697037 1750 115 233
2020-01-26T17:45:08Z N72EX 34.145741,-118.701096 1950 111 225
2020-01-26T17:45:15Z N72EX 34.143040,-118.703323 2125 110 207
2020-01-26T17:45:23Z N72EX 34.138824,-118.703407 2050 127 163
2020-01-26T17:45:29Z N72EX 34.135498,-118.699608 1700 153 120

ThreeThreeMike

27th Jan 2020, 06:21

An update on the crash and the victims:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7931909/Kobe-Bryant-dies-Calabasas-helicopter-crash.html

Ever since the incident occurred, I've been looking at news articles trying to find the scheduling constraint that made completion of the flight within those next few minutes surrounding the time of the crash imperative, and here it is.

Bryant, the 18-time NBA All-Star was said to have been headed to Mamba Academy - which he founded - in Thousand Oaks for a youth tournament involving his daughter and her teammate Alyssa.

The tournament, an event with a hard start time, was almost certainly the impetus for pressure the pilot felt. He likely considered the successful delivery of the two girls and their fathers (one being the pilot's employer) to the tournament as a key in the relationship of the families, and also the pilot's standing in Bryant's eyes as a guy that could be depended upon to make things happen. I believe this attribute would be highly valued by the fiercely competitive NBA superstar.

Those of you in the UK would be familiar with this self-imposed pressure on helicopter aircrews, as an accident with most of the same ingredients occurred in 2014. The crash involved a high-profile owner, absolutely qualified aircrew, and a recent model superbly equipped twin engine aircraft.

The zero/zero takeoff was in fog at night from an estate in Norfolk. From reading the thread on PPrune, I gathered the crew had relaxed their inviolable standards because of external pressures. This type of insidious event happens all too often, and one must be prepared to voice a firm "No" when they are presented.

Ascend Charlie

27th Jan 2020, 06:27

Maybe an S76 pilot on here has some idea of where RBS happens?
Not until much later, I have seen 180kt when I hit a sudden headwind from a cold front (no cloud), me at 145kt with a 30kt tailwind, and smacking into the headwind at 45kt. Talked to Nick Lappos about it, he said that because the machine was not powering itself to those speeds, and that I had lowered the lever and slowed down, there is no problem.

Paul Cantrell

27th Jan 2020, 06:35

If you put it down to live to see another day, chances are that people with clipboards will come and ask awkward questions about why a VFR pilot is flying around in the soup.

And yet, in 35 years I’ve never had anyone question my landing except the police ( who in these days of cell phones always seem to get called ) and nothing has ever happened as a result of talking to the police. I tell them I landed because of the weather, they ask a couple ( sometimes silly ) questions. They drive away and I never hear anything else about it.

n5296s

27th Jan 2020, 06:42

I have seen 180kt
Thanks. Extrapolating - always a risky thing to do - says the next data point would have been at 1300 feet and 188 Knots, or thereabouts.

I also notice it has hit the ground on its left side - not rolled after landing, judging from the impact damage. Given a very steep left bank and maybe the beginning of RBS... all adds up. The debris field is big, it was obviously breaking up before it hit the ground.

From the Daily Mail photos and a bit of extrapolation on my map overlay, it hits the ground at just about exactly 1000 feet.

Sikorsky

27th Jan 2020, 06:53

I'm not sure you can rely 100% on FR24 data when the aircraft is at law altitude. Just watch how the FR24 plots sometimes jumps around on the screen...

Bell_ringer

27th Jan 2020, 06:54

And yet, in 35 years I’ve never had anyone question my landing except the police ( who in these days of cell phones always seem to get called ) and nothing has ever happened as a result of talking to the police. I tell them I landed because of the weather, they ask a couple ( sometimes silly ) questions. They drive away and I never hear anything else about it.

But in the rest of the world..
There may be a few people still with us if there was more accountability.
The FAA get held up as a shiny example of how everyone else should do it, as was demonstrated with Boeing's Max, when they don't do their job people tend to end up dead.

cattletruck

27th Jan 2020, 06:59

ApolloHeli

27th Jan 2020, 07:09

A ppruner posted a link of the crash caught on mobile phone which I watched this morning and has been removed, I can't even find a link of it on the internet. The video is quite disturbing and confronting. CFIT it is not.

Was this the video? In which case it wasn't the right crash - [removed]

Edit: I've removed the link as it was a news story that included footage from a different crash. People have apparently been circulating it claiming it to be footage of Kobe's helicopter when in fact it was an AW139 that crashed in Dubai about 13 months ago.

gulliBell

27th Jan 2020, 07:09

..Given a very steep left bank and maybe the beginning of RBS... all adds up. The debris field is big, it was obviously breaking up before it hit the ground.

RBS. No way.
Obviously breaking up before it hit the ground. Nope.
Hit the ground inverted at speed and what was your whole helicopter turns into a whole lot of small helicopter pieces splattered over a very wide area.

n5296s

27th Jan 2020, 07:17

RBS. No way.
Why are you so certain? Not saying you're wrong, just curious? It was way beyond Vne (most likely) and probably above 180, and almost certainly in a 45+ degree left bank.

What else goes wrong once you exceed Vne? Not flutter I guess, which is generally what brings FW to a sorry end. Or do the rotor blades flutter? Do helicopters have the concept of Vc (speed at which bits fall off, roughly speaking, >Vne)?

Paul Cantrell

27th Jan 2020, 07:18

But in the rest of the world..
There may be a few people still with us if there was more accountability.
The FAA get held up as a shiny example of how everyone else should do it, as was demonstrated with Boeing's Max, when they don't do their job people tend to end up dead.

Not 100% sure what you are saying? Are you arguing that FAA isn’t doing their oversight? That they should investigate and possibly intimidate so that people are less likely to land as a precaution?

The current VFR weather minimums are very permissive ( and I’m glad they are ), so if you are arguing that we are too lax about VFR then I would think we would attack the problem by changing the VFR weather minimums, not go after people making precautionary landings.

What I would rather see is a change to certification rules to make IFR helicopter certification easier / less expensive, and to make IFR approaches workable for the way we operate helicopters ( make it easy to set up an approach to an open field for use by helicopters ). Remove the incentive for scud running...

Apologies if I misunderstood the point you were trying to make...

gulliBell

27th Jan 2020, 07:27

..What else goes wrong once you exceed Vne?

Nothing, apart from wearing out a few bits at a much faster rate. There is so much margin built into the Vne on a S76 you can fly right through it and not notice a thing.
200 kts. Yeah, maybe. 160/170/180 just no way.

Bell_ringer

27th Jan 2020, 08:14

Not 100% sure what you are saying? Are you arguing that FAA isn’t doing their oversight? That they should investigate and possibly intimidate so that people are less likely to land as a precaution?

This is going off at a bit of a tangent so I will leave this here.
Peoples behaviour can often be driven by what they can get away with.
Take a look at Brazil or even Russia, they have a poor safety culture predominantly because there is little oversight or consequence for behaviour.
Regulation is a sensitive topic, no one wants their fun ruined but they exist because of hard lessons learned over time.
I doubt anyone has achieved the goldilocks standard of "just right" regulation and no one would encourage over-regulation.
That said, if you have been caught out doing something you shouldn't have been doing, then your actions should be questioned and you should answer for that.
It's how you weed out the bad apples and keep people honest.
Historically the FAA has been quite relaxed in their approach, the modern examples of FLYNYON and the MAX demonstrate what can happen when people are left to regulate themselves. Like anything, the majority then have to live with consequences from the behavior of the few.

9Aplus

27th Jan 2020, 08:29

Last night / my time I picked FR24 data,
than used Google Earth with available ADS B points, than put all in some side perspective,
please notice 6 and 8 seconds time between last three received positions.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x540/84330599_1108369589510144_3523097420198051840_o_6b891c25180b 79dfb65799fc3b7c505e9b7978d8.jpg
and

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x540/83522656_1108372536176516_7166502616728338432_o_c421f07a90df e73ecc82b3f635fcf6494d9cdfbb.jpg

blind pew

27th Jan 2020, 09:05

76fan

27th Jan 2020, 10:09

Ever since the incident occurred, I've been looking at news articles trying to find the scheduling constraint that made completion of the flight within those next few minutes surrounding the time of the crash imperative, and here it is.

Bryant, the 18-time NBA All-Star was said to have been headed to Mamba Academy - which he founded - in Thousand Oaks for a youth tournament involving his daughter and her teammate Alyssa.

The tournament, an event with a hard start time, was almost certainly the impetus for pressure the pilot felt. He likely considered the successful delivery of the two girls and their fathers (one being the pilot's employer) to the tournament as a key in the relationship of the families, and also the pilot's standing in Bryant's eyes as a guy that could be depended upon to make things happen. I believe this attribute would be highly valued by the fiercely competitive NBA superstar.

Those of you in the UK would be familiar with this self-imposed pressure on helicopter aircrews, as an accident with most of the same ingredients occurred in 2014. The crash involved a high-profile owner, absolutely qualified aircrew, and a recent model superbly equipped twin engine aircraft.

The zero/zero takeoff was in fog at night from an estate in Norfolk. From reading the thread on PPrune, I gathered the crew had relaxed their inviolable standards because of external pressures. This type of insidious event happens all too often, and one must be prepared to voice a firm "No" when they are presented.

Exec helicopter flying......commercial/owner pressure .... from my experience the biggest flight safety problem for any pilot by far

Arfur Dent

27th Jan 2020, 10:28

Absolutely agree 76fan. Those execs and/or celebs using light aircraft or helicopters to get to major events like weddings and baseball games etc don't seem to allow much contingency to allow for delays due to weather. Virtually an entire family was killed recently in UK when a helicopter crashed in bad weather near Snowdonia en route to a wedding in Ireland (Dublin - I think). Imagine the pressure on the owner/pilot as the weather closed in. How could all 6 of them (maybe more- can't remember) miss the wedding?? He simply HAD to get past that high ground. Don't think he even tried to go around it. Went IFR and crashed. No survivors.
Why didn't they leave the day before? At least that would have afforded some options.

Canyonaro

27th Jan 2020, 10:42

Why didn't they leave the day before? At least that would have afforded some options.

Celebrities usually have obligations 7 days a week, often more than 1 per day. Their schedules are tight, so delays are more impactful.

barti01

27th Jan 2020, 10:42

anyone with conclusions regarding the flight path as indicated on the recording? he initially plans to go north alongside the 5, turning west into 101. gets put into hold over glendale, 15 minute delay, then is told to go north towards 118, north of van nuys, catch 101 south. another loss of time. he never gets to 101 southbound. tries to cross van nuys a moment after he got to 118. is he now in a hurry?

212man

27th Jan 2020, 11:34

Good morning britain with Piers Morgan had a chopper pilot that appeared to be a genuine expert who expressed himself extremely well and knew the location. From his analysis it appeared the chopper went into a typical holding pattern considering the deteriorating weather then crashed which led to the conclusions of either the unlikely event of a mechanical failure or loss of spacial awareness.

He was 'holding' because of all the IFR FW traffic into one of the airports he was wanting to transit though their zone (can't remember which of the two but it's in the youtube ATC clip).

gulliBell

27th Jan 2020, 11:54

Why are you so certain? Not saying you're wrong, just curious? It was way beyond Vne (most likely)..

The helicopter doesn't self destruct and fall out of the sky as you pass on to the wrong side of Vne. Vne is a number that the flight test guys and engineers come up with, with significant safety margins built in, to keep you on the right side of the fatigue life calculations so your flight safety critical bits don't wear out or break before they are due to be time-expired. The S76 will easily fly through Vne and keep flying, but the wear and tear on the rotor system and tail boom (and hydraulic servo actuators) goes exponential big time. Therefore compromising the component fatigue life. If that helicopter was doing 180 (and I'd be surprised if it was), and even if it was heavy, and even if it was cutting some bank angle, the retreating blade would not be stalled. And in any event, with the onset of retreating blade stall the tendency is for the nose of the helicopter to pitch up slightly (in addition to roll) and reduce the angle of attack of the blades, thus self-correcting the onset of the stall. I really don't think RBS has anything to do with the accident outcome.

rotorrookie

27th Jan 2020, 11:55

Sightseeing.
or waiting for SVFR clearance

Indelible Spirit

27th Jan 2020, 12:40

Tragic and frustrating. RIP.

Besides the weather issues...
Less distracting radio, more independent situational awareness from cockpit technology, and get to someplace safe ASAP!

Indelible Spirit

27th Jan 2020, 12:50

Absolutely agree 76fan. Those execs and/or celebs using light aircraft or helicopters to get to major events like weddings and baseball games etc don't seem to allow much contingency to allow for delays due to weather.

Hiring charter or a check-pilot captain? Find someone who puts safety first AND WILL NOT SHUT UP about it, no matter how famous the client or owner-pilot is!

gulliBell

27th Jan 2020, 12:59

medod

27th Jan 2020, 13:04

I'm still puzzled why a high net worth individual would be stooging around in a 30 year old helicopter instead of ponying up $16M of loose change for a pimped up latest and greatest 139 with 2 guys up the front.

I think probably because to him it was a flash big black helicopter with a smart VIP interior. I doubt he knew much about helicopters themselves; what models are available, avionics etc.

[email protected]

27th Jan 2020, 13:05

If this is any more than yet another IIMC at low level, an atttempted turnback/180 and resultant CFIT, I will be very surprised.

212man

27th Jan 2020, 13:06

I'm still puzzled why a high net worth individual would be stooging around in a 30 year old helicopter instead of ponying up $16M of loose change for a pimped up latest and greatest 139 with 2 guys up the front.
True, but certainly no guarantee - just look at the recent Bahamas and UK AW139 accidents

ATC Watcher

27th Jan 2020, 13:10

Gee, lot of fantasy in speculation from some here , including the daily mail , that obviously do not know how ATC works and what is Special VFR.
Special VFR for a Heli is absolutely normal , you need to stay away from clouds and 1 Mile 1,5km ( less than a NM) visibility . both Burbank and Van Nuys reported 2,5 Miles and 1100ft ,, and on teh ATC tape, pilot reported VMC a couple of times, no stress in voice indicating otherwise. Holding was not due to bad weather but to stay out of Burbank class C airspace because of a few dep/arrivals. Not related to accident at all, Socal ATC advising flight was too low was not related to weather or terrain but too low for flight following on radar and possibly even radio /VHF.
If you want to speculate , how about this one : I would say the usual, commercial pressure for destination , entering deteriorating conditions , lost sight of ground and attempted a 180 to get back , wrong side , was too close to he hill for that.

Addition : [email protected] (https://www.pprune.org/members/14573-crab-saavn-co-uk) just saw our post crossed , we are on the same line of thought I see

GrayHorizonsHeli

27th Jan 2020, 13:13

I think probably because to him it was a flash big black helicopter with a smart VIP interior. I doubt he knew much about helicopters themselves; what models are available, avionics etc.

just a question regarding the flashy black helicopter, and I am sorry I didn't browse through 6 pages to see if anyone else made note.

what paint scheme was this in? we have all seen the black one adorned with nike etc, and the blue and white we all assumed was the original scheme. it definatly looked like a dated corporate scheme.

I see blue and white in the crash scene video. Was the black a temporary wrap for a promotion??

tottigol

27th Jan 2020, 13:20

I'm still puzzled why a high net worth individual would be stooging around in a 30 year old helicopter instead of ponying up $16M of loose change for a pimped up latest and greatest 139 with 2 guys up the front.
Because that's how he likely got to having a high net worth.
Accident like this happen in 139s too, apparently.

barti01

27th Jan 2020, 13:22

GrayHorizonsHeli, seems it used to go black when Bryant owned it, then he allegedly sold it to an operator and I assume they re-painted it into white/blue

aterpster

27th Jan 2020, 13:43

Sightseeing.
Awaiting SVFR clearance from Burbank Tower.

https://youtu.be/B0pQfgi9ZqU

aterpster

27th Jan 2020, 13:45

He was 'holding' because of all the IFR FW traffic into one of the airports he was wanting to transit though their zone (can't remember which of the two but it's in the youtube ATC clip).
Van Nuys Airport.

Alpine Flyer

27th Jan 2020, 13:47

I think probably because to him it was a flash big black helicopter with a smart VIP interior. I doubt he knew much about helicopters themselves; what models are available, avionics etc.

Might be a recommendation by a/his pilot/friends/business partner, whatever. You never know how much personal interest people with a lot of money and a lot of other concerns will take in things they consider tools and which they don't drive personally.

I have not been in business aviation, but colleagues who took that route out of necessity reported that there are charter clients who specifically ask for "a safe pilot" and others who don't because they don't care. I'd suppose if I were a millionaire hiring a pilot I'd ask him to not fly if he has any doubts about safety as I'd value my ass even more than his, but apparently this attitude is not universal. This is in no means directed at Kobe Bryant whom I don't know (not interested in sports) but a more general observation. Maybe continued success breeds a feeling of invincibility.

malabo

27th Jan 2020, 13:59

https://nypost.com/2020/01/27/kobe-bryant-helicopter-crash-ara-zobayan-sarah-and-payton-chester-identified-as-victims/

Pilot and remaining passengers named. Lots of IMC talk, but as others have mentioned that would have gotten you safely from departure airport to some arrival airport with an approach, not the destination - may as well drive. Two pilots, maybe for the crew-discipline to turn around before losing control, but then you'd be pushing it pretty hard, like SAR hard. I too am puzzled at the speed, like the 109 in New York a while back. I also don't know the background of the pilot - if he had flown pipeline/powerline patrol with a Robbie in the mountains it would be helpful background, or fires with an Astar in heavy smoke, or SAR like we saw in the short video of the highway following helicopter in the UK. Turn left in deteriorating conditions at the bottom of a valley when sitting solo right seat in a S76, hmm, and doing it at anything over 60 knots, again, hope for more insight into this. Rich guys die in helicopters, we read about it in this forum all the time.

gulliBell

27th Jan 2020, 14:09

The helicopter was 2/3/3 seating configuration, right? Which is 8 seats. However there were 9 POB. I wonder how that worked.

FlightSpanner

27th Jan 2020, 14:29

The helicopter was 2/3/3 seating configuration, right? Which is 8 seats. However there were 9 POB. I wonder how that worked.

The rear bench is certified for 4 pax, armrests up. I would guess they had removed the 2 VIP chairs & credenza unit and fitted a fwd cabin bench seat, worked a UK 76B with this option.

Bellrider

27th Jan 2020, 15:23

Sounds there‘s heavy workload for the PIC.... lot of radio, holding.... and bad ceiling/weahter conditions

FIRESYSOK

27th Jan 2020, 15:32

A wrong turn down Las Virgenes Road instead of maintianing the 101 is a possibility. In that low weather very plausible, IMO.

Sir Korsky

27th Jan 2020, 15:44

operator wasn't 135 IFR certified

172driver

27th Jan 2020, 15:47

A wrong turn down Las Virgenes Road instead of maintianing the 101 is a possibility. In that low weather very plausible, IMO.

I doubt that. The 101 goes west, Las Virgenes Rd goes south and through a built-up area, also the 101 is the much wider roadway. I don't think even in fog in a helo you could confuse the two. The pilot seems to have been Kobe Bryant's personal pilot (or at least flown him repeatedly), so he likely was familiar with the location of the Mamba Academy they were going to. What I could imagine happened is that fog rolled over the Santa Monica Mountains and down the Las Virgenes valley and while scud running they flew into a fog bank with near zero viz. In fact, someone further up the thread who lives in the area alluded to some scenario like that.

I live in L.A. and fly (small fixed wing) in that area. For those unfamiliar: radio workload was normal for the area, the numbers used are freeways which everyone who flies here is familiar with and ATC cannot hear you and/or provide radar service in that area below about 2000 / 2500 ft. The 'too low' comment refers to that.

n5296s

27th Jan 2020, 15:49

If this is any more than yet another IIMC at low level, an atttempted turnback/180 and resultant CFIT, I will be very surprised.
Agree 100% with the first bit, but the 180 idea doesn't fit in with the crazy high descent rate. Could be that he started a 180 then got disorientated. If he had done a 180 and carried on climbing, or even levelled off at 2000, he would have cleared the terrain.

There has been mention that if they'd gone IFR, they would have had to land at an airport. In the US at least (maybe not in Europe, no idea) it's perfectly legal to fly an approach to an airport then once you're in VMC, break it off and fly under the clouds to wherever you're going. Standard practice even FW if you're going to an airport that doesn't have an approach and the ceiling is reasonable.

172driver

27th Jan 2020, 15:51

Regards making the flight IFR, presumably to KMCA, would have breaking off the approach to Camarillo once in VMC and flying direct to the Academy been an option?

The wx being what it was, the option would have been to fly to KCMA and take a car from there. KCMA sits on a coastal plain, the academy is much higher up and would have been in the crud.

OttoRotate

27th Jan 2020, 15:57

The helicopter was 2/3/3 seating configuration, right? Which is 8 seats. However there were 9 POB. I wonder how that worked.
I'm pretty sure the 76B can be fitted with an STC that allows a 12-person seating configuration that would not be out of place in a VIP interior.

The 76C and D have seating configurations for up to 8 individual crash-worthy seats plus the four-person bench on top of the fuel cell. These are not plush cushioned leather armchairs, but the latest seats would pass in a VIP/airliner interior. Removing one seat nearest the door allows for much easier loading/unloading without having to tilt any seats. I doubt improper seating was allowed here.

Airbubba

27th Jan 2020, 16:02

just a question regarding the flashy black helicopter, and I am sorry I didn't browse through 6 pages to see if anyone else made note.

what paint scheme was this in? we have all seen the black one adorned with nike etc, and the blue and white we all assumed was the original scheme. it definatly looked like a dated corporate scheme.

I see blue and white in the crash scene video. Was the black a temporary wrap for a promotion??

GrayHorizonsHeli, seems it used to go black when Bryant owned it, then he allegedly sold it to an operator and I assume they re-painted it into white/blue

Here is a recent photo of the helo from social media. An LA Times article says that Bryant sold the helicopter to Island Express after his retirement and rented it from IEX on frequent occasions. However, it appears that the helicopter was registered to Island Express after the sale at auction in 2015. Maybe it was one of those leaseback deals or something.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/939x599/n72ex_8ed30882538f39280961dbd838596ade8f8869a6.jpg

It appears that the S-76 was in the same livery when it was sold at auction in 2015 by the state of Illinois as N761LL.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x577/s_76b_n761ll_d3bca05d458ecf067094005999a43a39fc5e6fc3.jpg

From the crash site:

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1281x752/eprfmlaw4aaqru2_ba825a5ec9282c967050f8620e8bf136d2bc1f0e.jpg

It does look like the helo was in the black Nike paint scheme for a while.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/eppcntmx0aexr_0_efa606ae3f0f477324534bb82758081141835fba.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/eppcntqw4aagxt7_37d14feedd2e27f6dbdf894048debe5b66f5658d.jpg

n5296s

27th Jan 2020, 16:02

Are we certain Mamba Academy was the destination?
It's slightly to the right of 101, which makes a perfect visual ILS (if you see what I mean).
KCMA sits on a coastal plain, the academy is much higher up
It's at 692 feet (according to caltopo), so IF the ceilings being given were correct, it would have worked. But your suggestion of hitting a fog bank seems highly probable, so the ceiling info would be wrong in that case.
As for taking a car from KCMA - it's only 3 miles or so but if they were already hitting a deadline... we all know that "just taking a car" easily adds half an hour to the journey time.

aeroskipper

27th Jan 2020, 16:04

..could it be that the pilot had decided the wx was too bad, he knew where he were, that The Sheriff's Agoura Rd. HeliPad was close, and due to the bad visibility he turned a few seconds too early, thinking he just had to cross Agoura Rd. and then he would be at the HeliPad - then realising that he turned the wrong place, and due to limited visuals he was ending up in a non-normal which he couldn't get out of..? It only takes a few seconds to lose control due to vertigo and such, close to ground.

FIRESYSOK

27th Jan 2020, 16:20

172driver

27th Jan 2020, 16:24

It's slightly to the right of 101, which makes a perfect visual ILS (if you see what I mean).

It's at 692 feet (according to caltopo), so IF the ceilings being given were correct, it would have worked. But your suggestion of hitting a fog bank seems highly probable, so the ceiling info would be wrong in that case.
As for taking a car from KCMA - it's only 3 miles or so but if they were already hitting a deadline... we all know that "just taking a car" easily adds half an hour to the journey time.

Sure. But if they had done an IFR flight (I don't have time to look up the TEC routes now) say SLI - LAX - SMO - CMA they would have had ample time to check IF they could get visual with the academy or get a car out of KCMA. Hell, they could even have ordered a car or two and canceled if they got in. I know, I know, this is all Monday morning quarterbacking.....

Northernstar

27th Jan 2020, 16:38

Surely it’s the norm when there’s any question weather wise to have a backup plan like a car? The pilot being hailed elsewhere as exceptional and experienced, but exceptional IFR decision maker etc? How long and how many hours single pilot S76 in actual IFR has he I wonder. As above it’s Monday morning quarterbacking. Nothing personal and don’t know the individual.

Robbiee

27th Jan 2020, 16:45

Airbubba

27th Jan 2020, 17:01

operator wasn't 135 IFR certified

Would this be a part 135 operation? Or is there some part 91 'cost sharing' scheme that may have been used to skirt the regs? This seems to be a recurring theme in these small aircraft charter crashes.

Helicopter pilots don't think like airline pilots.

I think the accident statistics would tend to support that claim.

Three Lima Charlie

27th Jan 2020, 17:05

S-76 is certified for 2/4/4/4 and flown with that seating in utility configuration, such as offshore oil transport.

Indelible Spirit

27th Jan 2020, 17:29

Helicopter pilots don't think like airline pilots.

I don’t know what avionics this aircraft was equipped with, but even ForeFlight for $200 per year would provide moving terrain maps, which probably would have helped more than distractions of numerous radio frequencies, while getting caught “special VFR” in the soup, near terrain. Tragic.

PPRuNeUser0211

27th Jan 2020, 18:00

Any helo drivers care to advise why it would be- barring major airport airspace complications- not common practice to file an IFR flight plan and cruise at say, 5000’ or so, well clear of terrain? Then cancel the IFR and land visually at the destination? I never understood running scuds if it weren’t entirely, positively necessary.

Not commenting on the cause of the accident, just the above query:

Significantly difficult if you're above cloud and your min descent altitude is above the cloud base - often the case in hilly/mountainous areas where the tops are in clouds but the valleys are clear. In that case decent chance you wouldn't be able to descend without an instrument approach, which is often far enough away that you'll end up " scud-running " underneath anyway.
To be honest, flying underneath is perfectly safe so long as you're aware of the limits (of yourself and your machine). The killer historically (and I am specifically not talking about this accident) has been press-on-itus, due to whatever pressure. This gives often gives an accident sequence either inadvertantly entering IMC, or a last ditch mvr/CFIT trying to avoid it, when often the slow down/turn around option much earlier would have been perfectly safe.

I'd agree, it's a different mindset to airline flying. However, most corporate rotary flying is much closer to BizJet flying, which holds a very different set of pressures to airlines. You see similar "press on" accidents in that world. No way you can compare directly to airlines.

jymil

27th Jan 2020, 18:09

And yet, in 35 years I’ve never had anyone question my landing except the police ( who in these days of cell phones always seem to get called ) and nothing has ever happened as a result of talking to the police. I tell them I landed because of the weather, they ask a couple ( sometimes silly ) questions. They drive away and I never hear anything else about it.
Absolutely spot on. Putting it down on a suitable spot and call a taxi would have been the wiser option after things got hairy. Even if you have to file a report or whatever paperwork B*S* exist in EASA land or elsewhere: it's your and your clients life. Nobody can p*ss on you for acting in the interest of safety.

Airbubba

27th Jan 2020, 18:51

NTSB media briefing in a few hours at midnight Z (0000 UTC). I'm sure that several of the local news outlets will have a live feed.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/937x336/ntsb_3_2d14a730bc85413de5e80371043633f9314d9deb.jpg

Gomrath

27th Jan 2020, 19:05

I'm a fixed wing pilot. First some data, then some questions for the helo pilots here...

METARs and PIREPs around the time of the crash show the marine layer bases were around 1500' and tops around 2500', with marginal visibility:

According to the USGS Topo maps I have of the area, the highway elevation along the 101 tops out around 1100' just to the east of Las Virgines Rd, with hills up to 2000' to the north and south. Approaching Las Virgines, the highway dips into a valley and is at about 760' elevation. Two private helipads in the area are charted at 850' and 888'. Further west, the highway rises back to around 900' before descending through the Conejo Grade towards Camarillo.

Tracks posted upthread show N72EX was following US-101, at an altitude around 1200'. This suggests they were flying in hazy conditions just below the cloud deck. While the conditions were certainly marginal, they appear to have done just fine following the 101, and had already passed the highest portion of the highway along their route. (The south/east-bound turn started west of Las Virgines)

Assuming the FR24 and FA data are to be believed, N72EX then turned to the south/east, and possibly started a climb before the crash. My questions:
1) Are inadvertent IMC procedures the same for helos as fixed wing - that is, doing a 180? I'd imagine there are more options including trying to slow, hover, or try to set down short of a cloud bank if one sees it looming, or is that not practical?
2) What is the maximum climb capability of the S-76? (i.e. how long to get on top of a 1000' foot cloud layer, if required)
Putting it differently:
3) Are there any circumstances where a helo pilot would choose to turn and climb like that, knowing it would put them into a cloud especially if they weren't already?
The weather as you drop down to the west of Calabasas can change dramatically. I was on the freeway heading west from the Valley shortly after the accident and the weather deteriorated quite badly as I passed Calabasas towards Las Virgenes Rd. The marine layer funnels up Malibu Canyon and can settle on the 101 from Calabasas all the way to the Conejo Grade and down into the Camarillo Plain.
Ladyface Mountain in Agoura (3 miles W of the crash site) is right alongside the South side of the 101 and rises to 2031 feet.
The 101 in that 13 mile stretch is not the place for scud running.

The 2 helipads - one is at the LACFD Fire Station on Las Virgenes Rd and the other is LACSD Lost Hill Station.

On that morning all Police and Sheriff's Department helicopters were grounded due to viz...

crispyking

27th Jan 2020, 19:08

I'm no heli expert, and only a low-hour PP without any instrument rating.

I imported the flight path kml into google earth and tried flying it with the (admittedly rough) SR-22 simulation at the approximate speed. That seems like it is one very steep 180 degree turn at that speed.

I'm guessing that IMC was almost certainly anticipated by the pilot by that point and the climb into clouds and 180 turn was an expected (if not fairly routine?) manoeuvre for an IFR-rated pilot. It certainly looks like the turn was initiated with plenty of altitude to clear the hills (which the pilot would have known if he was familiar with the route). It seems like a fairly routine SVFR flight into IMC at that point (if that can ever be called "routine". I'm no expert -- can any S76 IFR pilots comment?)

The question for me is: why was the 180 turn so steep? I'm guessing that it was at near 90 degrees of bank which gives a useless (horizontal) lift vector and I'm guessing would entirely explain the descent and CFIT.

Possibilities:

He didn't transition to instruments and lost attitude awareness. Seems implausible for an IFR-rated pilot. Just watch the artificial horizon, ASI and altimeter.... Is this kind of IMC transition really that hard for an IFR-rated pilot?
The artificial horizon was malfunctioning or lagging, and he was unaware of his bank angle...
He deliberately made an aggressive 90-degree bank turn (because now everyone is really late) without anticipating (in time) the lift-vector consequences... It has happened before (e.g. Siggi Hoffmann BO105). He probably would have realized it within a second or two, but too late to recover...

Any thoughts?

ChickenHouse

27th Jan 2020, 19:08

Such a great equipped high tech machine ... I just reviewed the Zell am See accident, where this poor guy in his high tech equipped SR22 went beyond MAP, maybe hit the Go-around button and made a classic CFIT ... Are we over-addicted to technology? From what I heard this helicopter was IFR equipped with a lot of bells & whistles, so why did he not go up and requested an IFR pickup - only because his companies part 135 charter license was VFR-only? If this would be the case, we definitely have to discuss airmenship and safety in principle.

Expecting2Fly

27th Jan 2020, 19:16

What I could imagine happened is that fog rolled over the Santa Monica Mountains and down the Las Virgenes valley and while scud running they flew into a fog bank with near zero viz. In fact, someone further up the thread who lives in the area alluded to some scenario like that.

There's a credible ear witness account that would support your theory I saw on Live Leak earlier. The witness mentions the area's "micro climate" and previous history of cloud settling in the bowl of the crash site.

If you go to LL and search "Witness Describes What He Heard Before Kobe Bryant Helicopter Crash". I can't post the link because I'm a noob.

henra

27th Jan 2020, 19:22

The question for me is: why was the 180 turn so steep? I'm guessing that it was at near 90 degrees of bank which gives a useless (horizontal) lift vector and I'm guessing would entirely explain the descent and CFIT.

Possibilities:

He didn't transition to instruments and lost attitude awareness. Seems implausible for an IFR-rated pilot. Just watch the artificial horizon, ASI and altimeter.... Is this kind of IMC transition really that hard for an IFR-rated pilot?

Hint: The NTSB Accident database is full of this kind of accidents. In the case of high performance aircraft (both Helo and plank) this pattern ranks very high among the top causes for fatal accidents. Also with IFR machines and pilots (especially when those were not current on instruments but also sometimes those who were).
Looking at the terminal flight path this scenario appears highly likely.

Airbubba

27th Jan 2020, 19:35

A social media tribute to the pilot from an Island Express colleague.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/920x2000/eptso0ou8amp6hf_li_2__9abcb79db41cbd5d3e1957f6b6363ead89a823 4a.jpg
.

Spunk

27th Jan 2020, 19:56

Witness on Liveleak (https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=sRBr3_1580137926)

https://youtu.be/28QYy8lrww8

As described by Expecting2fly

The description of the micro climate and the wx situation comes at the end of the video.

helimutt

27th Jan 2020, 20:05

Devil 49

27th Jan 2020, 20:09

'"Too low for VFR" flight following' is what I heard on the video. It's an important difference- being to low for VFR or too low for reliable position and/or communication. I've been 'too low' for radio and radar at a 1000' and better in level terrain, mountains make it worse. It looks kinda bumpy where this flight was. I can imagine hundreds of terrifying scenarios for this flight's pilot to have encountered besides the standard IIMC assumption.

p.s. My last employer's operations manual recommended against attempting a 180 in an IIMC encounter. Flying straight and level, initiating a climb is much safer and easier than attempting visual surface reference while transitioning to instruments. The urge to descend will kill you dead, amen!- in IIMC.

Peter Fanelli

27th Jan 2020, 20:49

Witnesses on the ground reported the engines “spluttering” before the crash
Don't they always?

Rated De

27th Jan 2020, 20:58

A social media tribute to the pilot from an Island Express colleague.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/920x2000/eptso0ou8amp6hf_li_2__9abcb79db41cbd5d3e1957f6b6363ead89a823 4a.jpg
.

Aviation is a formidable beast.
Despite our best intentions, our professionalism and even our experience, it can catch any one of us at any time.

PAXboy

27th Jan 2020, 23:18

The witness found by 'extratv' gives a credible report. He states he is a sound engineer and thus determined the speed and direction of the machine. He talks directly about the weather and that there was no abnormal noise from the machine before impact. He describes that as a short sound, not protracted - which supports the suggestion of CFIT.

nomorehelosforme

27th Jan 2020, 23:34

The witness found by 'extratv' gives a credible report. He states he is a sound engineer and thus determined the speed and direction of the machine.

That’s an amazing ability to have.....

Lawprof

28th Jan 2020, 00:00

The witness found by 'extratv' gives a credible report. He states he is a sound engineer and thus determined the speed and direction of the machine.

That’s an amazing ability to have.....
As a teacher of the law and attorney, don't know I've ever seen a more competent, thorough eyewitness this side of a professional, such as a law enforcement officer. This guy's either the best BSer I've ever seen or the best layman eyewitness I've ever seen.

dragon6172

28th Jan 2020, 00:28

I don’t know what avionics this aircraft was equipped with, but even ForeFlight for $200 per year would provide moving terrain maps, which probably would have helped more than distractions of numerous radio frequencies, while getting caught “special VFR” in the soup, near terrain. Tragic.
To be clear, he was only Special VFR while transitting the Burbank Class C and the Van Nuys Class D. Once he was west of Van Nuys and following the 101 into the mountains regular VFR applied.

Special VFR is only for transitioning thru controlled airspace that touches the surface.

nomorehelosforme

28th Jan 2020, 00:39

As a teacher of the law and attorney, don't know I've ever seen a more competent, thorough eyewitness this side of a professional, such as a law enforcement officer. This guy's either the best BSer I've ever seen or the best layman eyewitness I've ever seen.

Lets see how competent and thorough the FAA and the NTSB think this eyewitness is during the course of their investigations, I think they may concur on the former of your potential conclusions of the (layman)eyewitness. Normally only information from an “expert witness” would be considered.

Rules about expert witnesses are set by state and federal rules of evidence, depending on whether your case is in state or federal court.

According to the Federal Rules of Evidence (http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rule_702), a qualified expert witness is someone who has knowledge, skill, education, experience, or training in a specialized field. These qualifications are generally also required of expert witnesses in state courts.

Under federal rules, experts must base their testimony on sufficient facts or data of the type reasonably relied upon by experts in their field, in order to help the jury understand issues that typically require specialized knowledge. While non-expert witnesses can only testify about what they've seen or heard, expert witnesses are generally allowed to give their specialized or professional opinion.

States have similar rules, though there are notable differences among states when it comes to the admissibility of expert testimony.

BFSGrad

28th Jan 2020, 00:43

Two erroneous narratives the media is pushing:

1. Because the local police helicopters were not operating due to weather, it was unsafe for any helicopter to be operating in the area. At the NTSB briefing this evening, the sheriff specifically said it was unsafe to operate his helicopters due to weather.

2. Because ATC said that N72EX’s altitude was too low for flight following, N72EX was too low to be operating safely.

172driver

28th Jan 2020, 01:23

Unusually well researched and written article in the NYT (they don't get the KVNY airspace, but that's a small niggle): https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/27/us/kobe-bryant-helicopter-crash.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

SASless

28th Jan 2020, 01:24

Lawprof

28th Jan 2020, 01:40

Lets see how competent and thorough the FAA and the NTSB think this eyewitness is during the course of their investigations, I think they may concur on the former of your potential conclusions of the (layman)eyewitness. Normally only information from an “expert witness” would be considered.

Rules about expert witnesses are set by state and federal rules of evidence, depending on whether your case is in state or federal court...

Under federal rules, experts must base their testimony on sufficient facts or data of the type reasonably relied upon by experts in their field, in order to help the jury understand issues that typically require specialized knowledge. While non-expert witnesses can only testify about what they've seen or heard, expert witnesses are generally allowed to give their specialized or professional opinion.

States have similar rules, though there are notable differences among states when it comes to the admissibility of expert testimony.

Indeed he may be full of it, but he sounds so smooth doing it. : ) I wasn't suggesting the guy be qualified as an expert witness. As you point out, the standards are high in a court of law. The rule you're referring to is known as the Daubert Rule and it has tightened up the standards for expert, opinion-based evidence a good bit in the last generation. It's the law of the land.

I have no earthly clue what standards the FAA and NTSB apply in their investigations, though. Way outside my area of expertise. I'm just saying if that dude with the ball cap had some testimony that I thought favored my position in a subsequent civil trial if I were representing a surviving family member suing Sikorsky or the heli service or what have you, I'd love to have him up on the stand. Smoooth. But that's all pie in the sky because I'm not practicing anymore, just teaching university students for relative beans. Those who can't do, teach, as they say.

Indelible Spirit

28th Jan 2020, 02:14

Heck....the NTSB and FAA just need to hit this thread and it will be case solved....particularly if they listen to the clairvoyants who keep posting telling us what the Pilot was thinking and doing all through the flight.

It is plain some Crystal Balls need a bit of window cleaner sprayed on them.

Well, here are positive quotes from those who knew the pilot, per NYT article:“Pilots who gathered at the school on Monday declined to give their names but described [PILOT] as an experienced and meticulous operator. They said they were perplexed by the accident.

“Super cautious, super smart,” one of the instructors said. “I can’t see him making this kind of mistake.”

visibility3miles

28th Jan 2020, 02:46

"Helicopter diverted from usual route"
"Kobe Bryant’s final flight, minute by minute"
https://www.latimes.com/sports/liveblog/kobe-bryant-dies-in-helicopter-crash-in-calabasas

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/840x1707/image_c64170ce305e12ffa91fd7efbf9c762ded9b30d3.png
(Matt Stiles & Priya Krishnakumar / Los Angeles Times)

devlspawn

28th Jan 2020, 02:49

To me this looks like something that could be explained by a medical incident. They were on track before a sudden hard left deviation. Also supporting that is the crash came right after the ATC controller advised they were too low for flight following, however, that ATC controller had asked a question seconds earlier that went unanswered by the pilot. After several seconds of no answer he just goes ahead and tells him that he can't get following. So there is some reason a previously quickly responding pilot did not respond to the last questions asked. Either work overload or medical problem.

Airbubba

28th Jan 2020, 02:56

Here's today's NTSB briefing near the scene.

Board Member Jennifer Homendy described the holding and special VFR clearances for the accident flight. She said that shortly before the crash the pilot said he was climbing to avoid a cloud layer. When ATC asked what the pilot planned to do there was no reply. The helicopter was observed climbing to 2300 feet MSL and then making a left descending turn to impact with terrain. The impact crater was at 1085 feet elevation. The debris field is 500-600 feet long on both sides of a hill.

There was no FDR or CVR and they were not required to be installed. An iPad with Foreflight was recovered and possibly more personal electronic devices will be available for analysis. The FBI is on scene strictly to assist in gathering perishable evidence, there is no criminal investigation.

Ms. Homendy clarified that when the controller said that the aircraft was too low for flight following it meant that they were too low for ATC to provide flight following assistance, not presumably too low for terrain avoidance.

She said that she's very confident that the NTSB will determine the cause of the accident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxGbm2EBN-0&feature=youtu.be

Bell_ringer

28th Jan 2020, 03:31

Well, here are positive quotes from those who knew the pilot, per NYT article:“Pilots who gathered at the school on Monday declined to give their names but described [PILOT] as an experienced and meticulous operator. They said they were perplexed by the accident.

“Super cautious, super smart,” one of the instructors said. “I can’t see him making this kind of mistake.”

Everyone makes mistakes, even nice guys.
If only errors of judgment were just made by a-holes, it would be so much easier to spot and prevent.
Many of us have lost people to accidents who we loved, trusted and respected and still can't fathom how it could have possibly happened to them.

Airbubba

28th Jan 2020, 04:52

More about the pilot from today's LA Times article on the victims (who have not been officially identified by the LA Medical Examiner-Coroner's Office).

[redacted]When flight student Darren Kemp heard that Kobe Bryant had died in a helicopter crash, his heart sank. He knew that his flight teacher, [redacted], was Bryant’s private pilot.

“He doesn’t let anyone else fly him around but [redacted],” Kemp said.

Kemp recalled [redacted] as a dedicated, caring instructor who wanted to help his students succeed. A video that Kemp filmed in the cockpit showed [redacted] in sunglasses and a mint-green headset, grinning and doing a mock salute at the camera.

When Kemp got divorced, he said, [redacted] helped him through it. When Kemp felt like dropping out, [redacted] encouraged him, telling him: “If you love this, then nothing will stop you.”

“It turns out, he was right,” Kemp said.

[redacted] was a veteran pilot, well-versed in the topography and weather patterns of the Los Angeles basin, said colleague Kurt Deetz, who with [redacted] flew Bryant from 2014 to 2016.

He was reliable and not known for risky flying, said Deetz, who knew him as “Big [redacted].”

“He loved calling himself that,” Deetz said. “He wasn’t big.”

[redacted], he said, “was the type of guy you’d call at 3 a.m. with a problem — anything, this or that — and he’d help you out.”

Even though poor weather forced him to swing northeast of his usual flight path, Sunday’s route — from John Wayne Airport to Camarillo — would have been very familiar to [redacted], Deetz said.

“It wasn’t a question of him not knowing the neighborhood,” he said.

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-01-27/kobe-bryant-helicopter-crash-victims

Bell_ringer

28th Jan 2020, 05:17

The names have been released and are widely available in the media, what’s the point redacting it?

Airbubba

28th Jan 2020, 05:41

The names have been released and are widely available in the media, what’s the point redacting it?

As SASless posted earlier:

Folks.....now is not the time to be posted names of those lost in this tragedy.

How about showing some courtesy and deleting your posts until the family and friends have time to learn of the loss of their family and friends through official means.

Apparently he had one of the mods remove a couple of my posts that named a famous Island Express pilot who wasn't on the helo. I wrote him a note telling him what I thought of that but decided not to send it.

Since none of the victims have been officially identified according to the coroner I guess that we just have to pretend until SASless gives his blessing. Not that there's anything wrong with that, Danny's trainset etc., etc., etc...

JetStudent

28th Jan 2020, 06:23

Just wanted to to share this article from NYMag, as it is well-written, contains a plausible and comprehensive possible explanation:
(Including comments about the decision not to switch to IFR, the apparent 180 just before the crash, etc)

/intelligencer/2020/01/kobe-bryants-helicopter-likely-succumbed-to-common-danger.html

(I'm not allowed to post links yet, so add nymag . com to the beginning, minus the spaces).

[email protected]

28th Jan 2020, 07:03

BD - there is a place for condolences but this is a professional pilot forum with a discussion about how a fellow professional pilot came to grief on a Californian hillside - it is important because when good guys make errors, it sends a strong message to the rest of us never to drop our standards or take those extra risks.

Lawprof - that 'expert witness' was very sure the helicopter was hovering or flying very slowly - not consistent with the debris field at the accident site.

Airbubba

28th Jan 2020, 07:26

ATC Watcher

28th Jan 2020, 07:28

The names have been released and are widely available in the media, what’s the point redacting it?
Because it does not bring anything to the story . If you knew personally the guy , you know it was him already , if you did not, like 99,9% of readers here, what is the point ?

What is far more interesting in the NTSB briefing is the fact that they retrieved an iPad with fore flight on it , so that may act as a mini FDR as far as parameters are concerned , and a mention that the last recording show a 4000f/min drop, whether that is a recording aberration or a fact would probably be the focus of the investigation as it could perhaps indicate a mechanical failure.

Bell_ringer

28th Jan 2020, 07:29

I Disagree it was a bad place at a bad time - are you saying the lost pilot had no standards ?

He said no such thing. Good people die far too often in preventable accidents. It could happen to any of us, the day you think otherwise is when the holes start lining up.
We would all like to believe that in fatal accidents something catastrophic and outside of their control occurred. As unpalatable as it is to accept, that is rarely the case.
Fully operational aircraft, operating within minima, do not leave smoking holes in the ground and large debris fields.

Perhaps more information will come to light, but without flight recorders and telemetry from SSR and ground receivers, all you are left with is inaccurate low level data from FR24.
Anyone that isn't emotionally connected to the occupants would be hard-pressed to consider this anything other than another avoidable weather related accident.

Bell_ringer

28th Jan 2020, 07:44

Lawprof - that 'expert witness' was very sure the helicopter was hovering or flying very slowly - not consistent with the debris field at the accident site.

I don't think you need a PHD to distinguish between an aircraft operating overhead or one transiting at 180kts.
Helicopters produce sound in a somewhat asymmetrical manner, without seeing it you'd have to have some talent to work out which way it was facing and how fast it was moving.
Even the best eyewitnesses are unreliable, let alone an earwitness.

Bravo73

28th Jan 2020, 08:55

Just wanted to to share this article from NYMag, as it is well-written,

It might seem like that to a layman but it's not actually that accurate:

"A trained pilot can stay right-side up by paying attention to the instruments on his panel. But at low altitude over Calabasas, Bryant’s pilot also had another problem. He knew that the ground ahead was rising, and he couldn’t see it. To avoid hitting it, he could keep climbing, and hope that he’d gain altitude faster than the ground underneath him. Or he could slow to a stop and descend vertically until he popped out of the bottom of the cloud."

No, he couldn't. If he had tried to decelerate to a hover whilst IMC, he would have had some serious aircraft stability issues.

Cabby

28th Jan 2020, 09:34

I've seen what a seagull can do to a windscreen in the past, and after checking on the Californian wildlife there are some very large geese in California.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_birds_of_California
Did any locals see any large birds in that area which may have caused a crash, or may have caused a medical incident if there had been a strike?

If the pilot knew the area well he would have known the heights of the surrounding terrain, and I would be surprised he descended so fast while IMC?. Seems odd he was climbing to then make a steep 4000ft/min descent from what I read above?
How old was the pilot? If he did have a heart attack or other medical problem would the post mortem find the evidence after a crash fire?

ddd

28th Jan 2020, 09:47

Jimmy Kimmel Remembers Kobe Bryant

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk00epALZps

Jimmy Fallon Remembers Kobe Bryant

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAByKcPJ5NQ&

nomorehelosforme

28th Jan 2020, 09:55

How old was the pilot? If he did have a heart attack or other medical problem would the post mortem find the evidence after a crash fire?

In accidents as severe as this medical evidence is difficult to obtain and is normally recognised as inconclusive and in this accident probably has nothing to do with the fire.

ATC Watcher

28th Jan 2020, 09:56

Did any locals see any large birds in that area which may have caused a crash, or may have caused a medical incident if there had been a strike?
Birds do not normally fly in fog.
One thing from the "perfect witness" testimony posted earlier; it is not because he could not see the helicopter above him that it was IMC in fog. It could have been above it, VMC , and the hill side could have been obscured ( Mt Erebus syndrome for those old enough to remember)

Mr Optimistic

28th Jan 2020, 10:19

It might seem like that to a layman but it's not actually that accurate:

"A trained pilot can stay right-side up by paying attention to the instruments on his panel. But at low altitude over Calabasas, Bryant’s pilot also had another problem. He knew that the ground ahead was rising, and he couldn’t see it. To avoid hitting it, he could keep climbing, and hope that he’d gain altitude faster than the ground underneath him. Or he could slow to a stop and descend vertically until he popped out of the bottom of the cloud."

No, he couldn't. If he had tried to decelerate to a hover whilst IMC, he would have had some serious aircraft stability issues.

As a layman that's exactly what I would have assumed. Is it possible you could explain without undue effort?

Bravo73

28th Jan 2020, 10:38

As a layman that's exactly what I would have assumed. Is it possible you could explain without undue effort?

No problem at all.

Helicopters, like aeroplanes, maintain a degree of stability due to the airflow passing over their aerofoil surfaces. For an aeroplane, the lack of airflow over the wing will lead to stalling (and severe instability). The lack of airflow over a rotor disk won't lead to a stall in the same sense but the aircraft becomes much less stable and relatively harder to control.

Therefore, all IFR rated helicopters have a Minimum IF speed (ie a minimum speed that must be maintained whilst in IMC. Depending on the type, this is normally 50 to 60kts. I don't know that the VMinI speed for a S76B is though, I'm afraid).

ApolloHeli

28th Jan 2020, 11:05

As a layman that's exactly what I would have assumed. Is it possible you could explain without undue effort?

Just to add to Bravo73's comments, in many helicopters, airspeed indicators aren't very useful below about 20 - 30kts and certainly won't work when drifting sideways or backwards, so there is very little to inform you of whether you are drifting and if so, in which direction. GPS track/groundspeed may help but is influenced by wind so is not really that helpful unless you know the wind accurately. There is a recent example of a trained Search & Rescue crew in the UK who attempted the exact same recovery mentioned in the article (hover, and climb vertically until clear of terrain or VMC), and despite their training and experience, only managed to get away after unintentionally rotating through 370° while they climbed. Here's the report so you can read about the hovering in IMC incident in more depth if you wish: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5d5173ece5274a53fa7ee288/Agusta_Westland_AW189__G-MCGR_09-19.pdf

Helisweet

28th Jan 2020, 11:35

An usual way to avoid this kind of scud runnig accidents is going to destination in a low level route following shore-line. Why he decided to go through mountain low pass??

SASless

28th Jan 2020, 11:39

Bell Ringer....right here at this thread a couple of folks were posting the Pilot's name.

One small problem was they were posting the WRONG name.

The Media is having a wonderful time posting all sorts of bogus bull**** about this sad event and we are seeing much of the same by some of the posts here.

As Crab correctly notes.....this is the one place in the World that this particular Pilot should get an even break.

These tragic events can happen to any of us despite our best efforts and training....and that is what should be of concern to us.

Every one of these tragedies must be a learning opportunity so that more of us do not fall prey to whatever got this Pilot.

I have no problem with this....or any accident being discussed but fully expect that discussion to be professional and intended to produce a Lessons Learned Summary.

That is what the formal accident investigation shall attempt to do.....perhaps we might try to copy their standards as best we can here at Rotor Heads.

I know for a fact that posting incorrect information or tolerating pure assed speculation is not the way to go.

sandiego89

28th Jan 2020, 12:28

An usual way to avoid this kind of scud runnig accidents is going to destination in a low level route following shore-line. Why he decided to go through mountain low pass??

Because it was cloudy along the coast. Coastal California is notorious for coastal clouds and fog, which can dissipate by mid-day and change rapidly by just going a few miles inland. It can be socked it at the coast, and bright and sunny a half mile inland (and at takeoff location). See post 161 for flight paths taken on previous flights and the accident flight. The coastal fog seemed worse than normal on this day, prompting a decision to take a further inland route up intestate 5 to the San Fernando Valley, then west.

Bell_ringer

28th Jan 2020, 12:39

ShyTorque

28th Jan 2020, 13:10

I see the mail is busy doing a great job telling their punters that helicopter travel is unsafe.

Alan Sugar has been spouting about how unsafe helicopters are (his opinion). Surely he doesn't believe that a similarly sized, fixed wing aircraft (such as the one he personally crashed at Barton Airport in good weather a few years ago), been "safe" in these exact circumstances?

wongsuzie

28th Jan 2020, 13:15

Quote:" it meant that they were too low for ATC to provide flight following assistance, not presumably too low for terrain avoidance".

Let the tabloid press understand this.

SASless

28th Jan 2020, 13:24

As we discuss this tragedy, take a moment and try to put yourself into the pilot's seat and think how you would have reacted had you encountered deteriorating weather as you were routing along a highway that had rising ground on both sides of you.

You are sat in a very nice twin engined IFR equipped aircraft with an autopilot and plenty of bells and whistles.

You also had other Electronic Aids along with you.

You are Instrument Rated,

You are bound for an off airport landing site.....you are familiar with the route....you know there is clear air above you.....there are VMC conditions behind you and major airports are IMC but with weather well above all IFR Approach Minimums.

Having mulled all this over for a while.....keep your answer in mind while you read the many posts here, Media Reports, and News Broadcasts on TV.

Then ask yourself why your answer differs from what actually happened....and then ask yourself "why".

That is what needs to be our focus.....there are lessons to be learned here....probably the same old lessons that we have learned in far too many of these tragedies.

Bell_ringer

28th Jan 2020, 13:47

SAS, an observation from some of the coverage of various accidents where weather was a factor.
On ATC recordings, it surprises me how calm many pilots sound, right up to the moment it all ends.

nomorehelosforme

28th Jan 2020, 13:51

industry insider

28th Jan 2020, 13:59

Quote:" it meant that they were too low for ATC to provide flight following assistance, not presumably too low for terrain avoidance".

Too low for both I suggest.

Expecting2Fly

28th Jan 2020, 14:07

An usual way to avoid this kind of scud runnig accidents is going to destination in a low level route following shore-line. Why he decided to go through mountain low pass??

Just google Marine Layer. As Sandiego89 states, the California coastline is notoriously bad for this phenomenon, especially in the mornings before the sun can burn it off.

I can't post links yet but there was LA Times piece by Paul Duginski yesterday on how it's likely have contributed to the crash.

sandiego89

28th Jan 2020, 14:27

.....
birds.....If the pilot knew the area well he would have known the heights of the surrounding terrain, and I would be surprised he descended so fast while IMC?. Seems odd he was climbing to then make a steep 4000ft/min descent from what I read above?....heart attack......

I know you are trying hard to find a external cause or a medical, but spatial disorientation can also do that. JFK Jr. and countless others did not "mean" to descend so fast.

Robbiee

28th Jan 2020, 14:34

What really surprises me about this accident is the pilot seemed so calm and in control during his conversations with the ATC and then within seconds it all goes to ****, did he suddenly change his original plan or did panic set in?

Sorry BR just see you posted pretty much the same as me

Funny, when I went IIMC a few years ago, I too was calm throughout the incident (as was my navigator) however, that didn't prevent me from essentially freezing up on the controls.

Perhaps calmness is from a sense of disbelief and/or self delusion that the situation isn't all that bad and we can still make it out without declaring (even to ourselves) that its an emergency?

PAXboy

28th Jan 2020, 14:42

Thank you Robbiee for an educational explanation from your uncomfortable personal experience.

Deltasierra010

28th Jan 2020, 15:09

Unless there is some very unlikely mechanical factor found nobody will learn anything from this sad loss I’ve lost friends from exactly the same cause, “gethereitis”. It probably affects commercial pilots more than amateurs, lots of experience and qualification, familiar with the area, aware of the conditions, maybe even got away with it many times.

malabo

28th Jan 2020, 15:10

Thanks for the professional refocus, SASless. Was not CFIT. Nothing controlled about the end of the flight. He had hit the "cannot go further" after following a great low-vis visual reference, the freeway and now had at least 3 options:

1. Landed on the Station 125 helipad beside the freeway at Las Virgenes Road, or
2. positioned to the left side and done a slow tight right turn (his side with all the good windows for reference) 180 and exit east along the 101, or
3. big depend on local terrain knowledge, climbed up to an MSA and called ATC as a pop-up for an approach to Camarillo that has an LPV limits of 300-3/4.

All three are not bad options, throw the passenger considerations in the mix, and the one we'd like as pilots - landing on a pad and having a coffee to wait 30 minutes for the rapidly changing weather- isn't one your "precious time" passengers are keen on. To turn and back out on the 101, now you are over an hour into your fuel, still have to get to the coast, still have to stooge around to the west and try to get back up your intended spot, more time lost that has the passengers drumming their fingers. Lastly, you are finally somewhat out of the ATC zoo of the LA basin, and with whatever you have in the cockpit (even Foreflight on an iPad) you manage your own terrain separation and climb up calling ATC for a clearance. Well, he got to reportedly 2400', had turned south to line up with the lower ground down towards Malibu, got the call in to ATC, and then... it all went pear shaped.

Did he couple the autopilot to the heading bug and IAS on the climb, pull MCP, trim to 80 knots. Did he have a GPS referenced terrain map apart from Foreflight. Any modern situational awareness avionics like a Garmin 750, could it fly an LPV, could he fly an LPV, or was he stuck with a POS stone age UNS-1D. That weather is pretty normal stuff for the LA Basin. Sheriffs are being a little dramatic, their SOP limits are 800-2 by department standards, well above the FAA VFR legal limits, so wrong guys to ask.

If the climb was planned and intentional, vs the two other options, then it must have been sanctioned in some way by the operator. When was the last time "*A-a*" was in an S76 simulator for IFR practise, how did he do on check rides in the sim (the only place to simulate hard IMC), what was the automation use SOP for that organization. Platitudes from fellow pilots and students mean nothing in this discussion.

Lonewolf_50

28th Jan 2020, 15:21

Because it was cloudy along the coast. Coastal California is notorious for coastal clouds and fog, which can dissipate by mid-day and change rapidly by just going a few miles inland. It can be socked it at the coast, and bright and sunny a half mile inland (and at takeoff location). See post 161 for flight paths taken on previous flights and the accident flight. The coastal fog seemed worse than normal on this day, prompting a decision to take a further inland route up intestate 5 to the San Fernando Valley, then west.
If I may second sandiego89's point. I spent just under five flying out of North Island (San Diego Area). And various points north in coastal southern california.
The coastal fog was a thing that we always had to be wary of and had to have a back up plan for. As he says, you can be a few miles inland and it's not a factor at all, but for a while each morning our coastal fields and bases often shut down flight ops and just waited for the stuff to go away/burn off. In a related anecdote, it wasn't that uncommon on the weekend, if you were up with the dew sweepers at Torry Pines public golf course, to tee off into the fog on the first hole and not be able to see where your ball went. By the time you reached number 9 yere were in the well known, stereotypical gorgeous SoCal weather.

On my not-too-frequent forays into the cluttered airspace of the LA area, I flew with a paranoid mindset. Why? Because we were not used to that kind of traffic density where we normally operated, and we had less of a "feel" for the local terrain/features/nuances of the airspace volume.

This pilot was likely very used to all of the ins and outs, and nuances, of the LA flying area: the traffic density, the way the fog rolls in, when and how, major and minor roads ...
He was in an around it for years.
So what made this flight different?
It is unfortunate that there isn't a CVR or FDR for the NTSB to consult.
I'll be interested to see what they come up with.

Lawprof

28th Jan 2020, 15:27

It's been explained to me by an adjunct law professor (kinda like a pilot who is a 'consultant' ;)) that it doesn't matter that much whether expert testimony is correct. It matters whether the testimony is persuasive to a judge and jury.

Your adjunct friend is right. The judge is not going to sit there and declare what is right and wrong, he or she is very unlikely to have any clue. Judges are (ideally) experts in evidence and trial procedures and the law of their jurisdiction, but that doesn't mean they know jack squat about flight and VFR and IFR and all these acronyms. And of course juries typically know even less. Whatever an expert can persuade a jury to believe, that generally becomes the "truth" so far as that trial is concerned.

As for dude in ball cap with great sounding talk track, he may have an accurate take or that helicopter may never have hovered over him and he may have been totally delusional about what was happening above. I don't know how pushing levers up and down on one of those sound things in a church qualifies you for much of anything other than setting up the sound in a church. But not my point. The guy would be a great fact witness (non-expert) in court because he sounds so authoritative. Alas, that often trumps truth and competence.

obgraham

28th Jan 2020, 15:47

Juan Browne, on the "blancolirio" channel on youtube, has a very clear and factual discussion on the issue of SVFR into IMC conditions in a helicopter. Leaves out the conjecture and bs.

Spooky 2

28th Jan 2020, 16:02

Maybe I missed it earlier, but was this flight being conducted under pure Part 91, or was it a Part 135 operation?

Airbubba

28th Jan 2020, 16:15

Maybe I missed it earlier, but was this flight being conducted under pure Part 91, or was it a Part 135 operation?

I've had the same question, perhaps it will be answered in one of the NTSB briefings soon.

Would this be a part 135 operation? Or is there some part 91 'cost sharing' scheme that may have been used to skirt the regs? This seems to be a recurring theme in these small aircraft charter crashes.

Mr Optimistic

28th Jan 2020, 16:19

Just to add to Bravo73's comments, in many helicopters, airspeed indicators aren't very useful below about 20 - 30kts and certainly won't work when drifting sideways or backwards, so there is very little to inform you of whether you are drifting and if so, in which direction. GPS track/groundspeed may help but is influenced by wind so is not really that helpful unless you know the wind accurately. There is a recent example of a trained Search & Rescue crew in the UK who attempted the exact same recovery mentioned in the article (hover, and climb vertically until clear of terrain or VMC), and despite their training and experience, only managed to get away after unintentionally rotating through 370° while they climbed. Here's the report so you can read about the hovering in IMC incident in more depth if you wish: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5d5173ece5274a53fa7ee288/Agusta_Westland_AW189__G-MCGR_09-19.pdf

Thanks all. Shall read it.

Airbubba

28th Jan 2020, 16:26

Another midnight Z NTSB media briefing today.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/967x215/ntsb_4_05228c90c722d2bd2c9c08287a4a980cedd71b09.jpg

sprag47

28th Jan 2020, 16:42

Juan Browne, on the "blancolirio" channel on youtube, has a very clear and factual discussion on the issue of SVFR into IMC conditions in a helicopter. Leaves out the conjecture and bs.

At the time of the crash he was clear of controlled airspace and not under a SVFR. He was VFR scudrunning. A SVFR clearance has **** to do with this accident.

Airbubba

28th Jan 2020, 16:42

NTSB B-Roll video with a good overview of the wreckage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvjzFWbJJxo

Arnie Madsen

28th Jan 2020, 17:03

.

The New York Post has a picture taken by a man on a mountain bike 200 feet from the crash site ....... (quote) ......“Out of the fog came a helicopter and it slammed into the mountainside about 200 feet from where we were standing,” said the man, who asked to remain anonymous.

“We were close enough that we could feel the air from the propellers. There was a huge fireball,” he said.

“One of the helicopter doors landed about 10 to 15 feet away from us. Helicopter parts were flying everywhere. There was very little left of the helicopter,” the witness added.

https://nypost.com/2020/01/28/pictures-show-kobe-bryants-helicopter-in-ball-of-fire/

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/623x684/new_york_post_pic_kobe_heli_37f588d1e39d89944b6517fbbd055442 6adf8278.jpg

kenish

28th Jan 2020, 17:26

.
The New York Post has a picture taken by a man on a mountain bike 200 feet from the crash site .......

The trail is a very popular MTB and hiking route. Our local LA AM radio station interviewed another mountain biker also close to the scene. He's also instrument-rated and said visibility was 3-4 feet and he heard the helo just before and during impact, but of course did not see anything.

Random comments that may provide info or insight:

- LA Sheriff helicopters are based at Long Beach (KLGB) and at Pomona/Brackett (KPOC). LAPD's helo base is just north of downtown LA. The "no fly" decisions were based on weather at their bases, which are distant from the crash site and a totally different weather pattern . No question visibility at the crash site was marginal.

- My (possibly incorrect) understanding is rotary wing SVFR differs from fixed wing. In controlled airspace (KBUR, KVNY) 1sm visibility is not required (FAR 91.157); simply clear of clouds. The crash site was in Class G airspace. This is basic VFR, and rotary wing requirement is clear of clouds and operating at a low enough airspeed to avoid terrain and other aircraft (FAR 91.155).

- The comments from experts sounds like the pilot was very qualified and the S76 has a good safety record with a lot of reliability and redundancy. One "stretch" possibility- something happened inflight that forced a descent into the fog (smoke in cockpit, medical incapacitation, etc). But tragic get-there-itis seems like the leading speculation.

sprag47

28th Jan 2020, 17:36

A few comments that may provide info or insight:

- LA Sheriff helicopters are based at Long Beach (KLGB) and at Pomona/Brackett (KPOC). LAPD's helo base is just north of downtown LA. The "no fly" decisions were based on weather at their bases, which are distant from the crash site and a totally different weather pattern . No question visibility at the crash site was marginal.

- My (possibly incorrect) understanding is rotary wing SVFR differs from fixed wing. In controlled airspace (KBUR, KVNY) 1sm visibility is not required (FAR 91.157); simply clear of clouds. The crash site was in Class G airspace. This is basic VFR, and rotary wing requirement is clear of clouds and operating at a low enough airspeed to avoid terrain and other aircraft (FAR 91.155).

- The comments from experts sounds like the pilot was very qualified and the S76 has a good safety record with a lot of reliability and redundancy. One "stretch" possibility- something happened inflight that forced a descent into the fog (smoke in cockpit, medical incapacitation, etc). But tragic get-there-itis seems like the leading speculation.

Yep, clear of clouds for helicopter SVFR. Your comments are sound, especially the perceived pressure to get your VIP passenger to his destination. For understandable reasons, many pilots are looking for some unlikely event like a bird strike or heart attack to absolve a fellow pilot of blame, but 80% of the time it's pilot error, unfortunately.

Arnie Madsen

28th Jan 2020, 17:39

.

Interesting to note impact scene from the NTSB video posted by Airbubba ..... the main rotor blades appear to be at the initial impact site and the remainder of the fuselage bounced and landed a bit farther away ...... could that indicate inverted flight at impact ??

.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1072x540/kobe_bryant_blades_at_impact_e4f764be7e8dd470105bc290e9221ee 63513a61a.jpg

.

Search&Rescue

28th Jan 2020, 18:06

sprag47

28th Jan 2020, 18:18

I agree with Crab@ and share also your opinion Malabo that they were cruising very fast at low level... a sad story...

Or climbed into overcast to get on top, became disoriented, loss of control and wound up in a dive into the ground...would explain high impact speed.

ShyTorque

28th Jan 2020, 18:24

Having studied that drone video, although I see what I think is the tail pylon, lying separately from the main impact wreckage, I couldn't see any tail rotor parts.

Search&Rescue

28th Jan 2020, 19:07

Or climbed into overcast to get on top, became disoriented, loss of control and wound up in a dive into the ground...would explain high impact speed.

As Malabo mentioned, the fast cruise before the 180 degree turn is a factor for sure... The last maneuver is a mystery... because an intentional climb through the clouds is nothing special for a well trained IFR pilot... But as somebody mentioned earlier... the recency and the recurrent training in the simulator might save your day in situations like this...

sprag47

28th Jan 2020, 19:44

As Malabo mentioned, the fast cruise before the 180 degree turn is a factor for sure... The last maneuver is a mystery... because an intentional climb through the clouds is nothing special for a well trained IFR pilot... But as somebody mentioned earlier... the recency and the recurrent training in the simulator might save your day in situations like this...

Agree...wings level, best rate, nothing difficult for a current, IFR-rated pilot...but **** happens....

JimEli

28th Jan 2020, 21:15

...
- My (possibly incorrect) understanding is rotary wing SVFR differs from fixed wing. In controlled airspace (KBUR, KVNY) 1sm visibility is not required (FAR 91.157); simply clear of clouds. The crash site was in Class G airspace. This is basic VFR, and rotary wing requirement is clear of clouds and operating at a low enough airspeed to avoid terrain and other aircraft (FAR 91.155).
...

I believe you're incorrect on Class G (per amendment in 2014).

RatherBeFlying

28th Jan 2020, 21:19

Yesterday's NTSB drone seems to have been launched from a segment of MTB trail overlooking the crash site on a lower segment of MTB trail which seems to be Suspected site on Google Earth (https://earth.app.goo.gl/xBqgDY) (screenshot won't upload).

The site is close to the bottom of a drainage and the direction of scars is northerly over a spur. Steep slopes to the north and south surrounding a drainage to the west.

sprag47

28th Jan 2020, 21:32

I believe you're incorrect on Class G (per amendment in 2014).

No, you're incorrect. Check the FAR...clear of clouds, no min visibility for helicopters in Class G.
Quote the "2014" amendment if I'm wrong and I'll stand corrected. Class G is ungoverned airspace.

JimEli

28th Jan 2020, 21:41

No, you're incorrect. Check the FAR...clear of clouds, no min visibility for helicopters in Class G.
Quote the "2014" amendment if I'm wrong and I'll stand corrected. Class G is ungoverned airspace.

Helicopter Air Ambulance, Commercial Helicopter, and Part 91 Helicopter Operations; Correction. A Rule by the FAA (https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2014/07/15/2014-16523/helicopter-air-ambulance-commercial-helicopter-and-part-91-helicopter-operations-correction) 7/15/2014. (https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2014/07/15/2014-16523/helicopter-air-ambulance-commercial-helicopter-and-part-91-helicopter-operations-correction)

I've never heard it referred to as "ungoverned."

sprag47

28th Jan 2020, 21:58

Helicopter Air Ambulance, Commercial Helicopter, and Part 91 Helicopter Operations; Correction. A Rule by the FAA (https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2014/07/15/2014-16523/helicopter-air-ambulance-commercial-helicopter-and-part-91-helicopter-operations-correction) 7/15/2014. (https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2014/07/15/2014-16523/helicopter-air-ambulance-commercial-helicopter-and-part-91-helicopter-operations-correction)

I've never heard it referred to as "ungoverned."

So one can fly a helicopter through a CZ when IFR with no min vis, but if I'm in the middle of nowhere in Utah at 100' AGL I need 1/2 mile vis?
Apparently I stand corrected. My apologies...I retired after 30 yrs of pro helicopter flying in 2013. Guess I'll STFU.

MarcK

28th Jan 2020, 22:05

91.155(a)
For helicopters:
Day 1⁄2 statute mile Clear of clouds

91.157 (Special VFR) eliminates the visibility requirement, but they were not SVFR.

Amdt. 91-330A, 79 FR 41125, July 15, 2014

Musician

28th Jan 2020, 22:36

.

Interesting to note impact scene from the NTSB video posted by Airbubba ..... the main rotor blades appear to be at the initial impact site and the remainder of the fuselage bounced and landed a bit farther away ...... could that indicate inverted flight at impact ??
.
From Ms Homendy's second media briefing as uploaded to the NTSBgov youtube channel, I understood that the debris field is 500-600 ft long, and is comprised of tail, impact crater at ~1080ft alt, hillcrest, fuselage, main rotor.

tdracer

28th Jan 2020, 22:44

This pilot was likely very used to all of the ins and outs, and nuances, of the LA flying area: the traffic density, the way the fog rolls in, when and how, major and minor roads ...
He was in an around it for years.
So what made this flight different?
It is unfortunate that there isn't a CVR or FDR for the NTSB to consult.
I'll be interested to see what they come up with.
I was about to ask if this helicopter had a CVR/FDR (but figured I should go back a few pages to see if it was already answered).
Which sort of begs the question, why not? I would think any aircraft that is being operated "for hire" should be so equipped...

Musician

28th Jan 2020, 22:47

METAR for Camarillo
In his conversation with ATC, the pilot mentions that he wants to fly to Camarillo, the airport there is under 10 miles from Bryant's Mamba Sports Academy, where the passengers were alledgedly headed. From the METARs, it looks like if they'd gotten there, they could've landed?

Data at: 1800 UTC 26 Jan 2020
METAR for: KCMA (Camarillo Arpt, CA, US)
Text: KCMA 261755Z 03003KT 4SM HZ OVC017 15/11 A3019 RMK AO2 SLP233 T01500106 10150 20117 53017
Temperature: 15.0°C ( 59°F) Dewpoint: 10.6°C ( 51°F) [RH = 75%] Pressure (altimeter): 30.19 inches Hg (1022.4 mb) [Sea level pressure: 1023.3 mb]
Winds: from the NNE (30 degrees) at 3 MPH (3 knots; 1.5 m/s)
Visibility: 4 sm ( 6 km)
Ceiling: 1700 feet AGL
Clouds: overcast cloud deck at 1700 feet AGL
Weather: HZ (haze)

Text: KCMA 261705Z 08007KT 4SM HZ OVC016 14/11 A3017 RMK AO2 T01390106
Temperature: 13.9°C ( 57°F) Dewpoint: 10.6°C ( 51°F) [RH = 80%] Pressure (altimeter): 30.17 inches Hg (1021.8 mb)
Winds: from the E (80 degrees) at 8 MPH (7 knots; 3.6 m/s)
Visibility: 4 sm ( 6 km) Ceiling: 1600 feet AGL
Clouds: overcast cloud deck at 1600 feet AGL
Weather: HZ (haze)

Text: KCMA 261655Z 08008KT 4SM HZ OVC014 14/11 A3017 RMK AO2 SLP225 T01390106
Temperature: 13.9°C ( 57°F) Dewpoint: 10.6°C ( 51°F) [RH = 80%] Pressure (altimeter): 30.17 inches Hg (1021.8 mb) [Sea level pressure: 1022.5 mb]
Winds: from the E (80 degrees) at 9 MPH (8 knots; 4.1 m/s)
Visibility: 4 sm ( 6 km)
Ceiling: 1400 feet AGL
Clouds: overcast cloud deck at 1400 feet AGL
Weather: HZ (haze)

Text: KCMA 261555Z 07003KT 4SM HZ OVC013 14/11 A3016 RMK AO2 SLP221 T01390106
Temperature: 13.9°C ( 57°F) Dewpoint: 10.6°C ( 51°F) [RH = 80%] Pressure (altimeter): 30.16 inches Hg (1021.4 mb) [Sea level pressure: 1022.1 mb]
Winds: from the ENE (70 degrees) at 3 MPH (3 knots; 1.5 m/s)
Visibility: 4 sm ( 6 km)
Ceiling: 1300 feet AGL
Clouds: overcast cloud deck at 1300 feet AGL
Weather: HZ (haze)

1705Z is 9:05am, 1755Z is 9:55am LA time, I believe. The flight started at 9:06 and ended at ~9:45.

Hedge36

28th Jan 2020, 22:59

Musician

28th Jan 2020, 23:54

From the NTSB briefing just now, it emerged that N72EX was operated as a part 135 VFR charter. The NTSB does not yet know how well the IFR instruments in the helicopter were maintained (but they have retrieved the maintenance records and other paperwork carried on the aircraft).

I believe that part 135 helicopter pilots are (were?) supposed to be trained in recovery from inadvertant instrument metereological conditions (IIMC).
https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/notice/n_8900.437.pdf
Is that actually being done regularly?

tdracer

29th Jan 2020, 00:01

But since it isn't required, the money is not spent.
Why isn't it required on a for-hire aircraft? We're not talking a small, inexpensive GA aircraft - we're talking a good sized, multi-million dollar helicopter that's being used to haul paying passengers - why would this be any different than a small regional jet?

malabo

29th Jan 2020, 00:06

https://youtu.be/Iv_i7VIS7UU

NTSB update

and flight path visualization. NTSB stated aircraft had climbed to 2300’ on a southerly heading before descending steeply to impact in a left bank at 1100’.

https://youtu.be/XSHpbGhy3Ko

Airbubba

29th Jan 2020, 00:28

Some notes from NTSB Member Homendy's latest media conference.

All significant components of the aircraft have been located at the crash site indicating that the helo was intact upon impact with terrain.

An iPad and a cellphone were recovered but it is not known if they belonged to the pilot.

Investigators flew the final part of the flight path with a drone to collect data.

The wreckage has been removed by a recovery crew and will be trucked to a secure location for further analysis. The site has been turned over to local authorities.

There was a 3 pm conference call with the families to update them on the progress and procedure of the investigation. No names or details of the call will be released.

The pilot listed 8200 hours total time on his July 2019 medical application. He had 1250 hours in the S-76 and had been with Island Express for ten years. He flew SNA-CMA the day before the accident but took a more direct route.

The descent rate of the helicopter prior to impact was greater than 2000 feet per minute. It impacted in a descending left bank.

In ten days a preliminary report will be issued, a final report in 10-18 months. Emergency recommendations will be issued prior if warranted.

The NTSB has previously recommended that all turbine powered rotorcraft with six or more seats be required to have Terrain Awareness and Warning System (TAWS).

The NTSB has also recommended that all Part 91 and Part 135 rotorcraft be required to have a CVR and FDR.

The FAA did not adopt either recommendation.

The helicopter missed the top of the hill it hit by 20 or 30 feet but there are other hills around so no conclusion should be drawn from that observation.

Gomrath

29th Jan 2020, 01:35

Thanks for the clarifications to my post. You were very close to the location and time of the crash. It was unusually damp here in Orange County too; as mentioned I was mountain biking. We started in dense fog around 1000MSL and broke out of the top at around 1300 where it was 20+ mile visibility but under a higher broken layer. Sounds like the ground fog layer was a lot thicker in your area.
It was foggy and quite grim and had been that way since dawn, so it wasn't a case of the weather deteriorating since the pilot left SNA.
VNY and BUR were IMC. I would have expected CMA to not have been much better as it sits in the Camarillo plain. Scud running would not have been wise on that 15 mile stretch of the 101 with 2000 foot peaks so close..

Gomelgo

29th Jan 2020, 02:00

There is audio of the last seconds of the flight before impact via nest camera.
it is on twitter under Bill Melugin, with Fox LA who retweeted him. I can’t post links yet.

https://twitter.com/BillFOXLA/status/1222345578744446976?s=20

Airbubba

29th Jan 2020, 03:11

Here's the NTSB video release of the Tuesday media briefing.

https://youtu.be/Vwk6NaQSuPA

neville_nobody

29th Jan 2020, 04:23

What is the point of being a high net worth individual owning a multi million dollar twin turbine helicopter to then sign up with a VFR only operator?

Bell_ringer

29th Jan 2020, 04:49

Did he own it? The owner is listed as Island express holding corp of which the operator is a subsidiary.

Musician

29th Jan 2020, 05:22

The Sikorsky S-76B helicopter that Bryant's group was flying in was built in 1991. It was initially owned by the state of Illinois, but the state auctioned it off (https://ibid.illinois.gov/item.php?id=123331) in the summer of 2015 for $515,161.

The winning bid came from a user named "Jimbagge1" — and Jim Bagge is an executive at Island Express Holding, a California company that holds the FAA registration for the helicopter: N72EX (https://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=N72EX).

Source: https://www.npr.org/2020/01/27/800100632/what-we-know-the-helicopter-crash-that-killed-kobe-bryant-and-8-others

Squawk7700

29th Jan 2020, 06:10

What is the point of being a high net worth individual owning a multi million dollar twin turbine helicopter to then sign up with a VFR only operator?

Because these things make little difference in the end...

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/general-aviation/2019-07-29/witness-aw139-was-spinning-bahamas-fatal-crash%3famp

Bell_ringer

29th Jan 2020, 06:25

What was Bryant’s aviation background? You’re assuming that because he was a sportsman with cash that he should be aware. For most, a helicopter is a helicopter.
Remember what happened with the Sala crash?

SLFMS

29th Jan 2020, 07:21

Not speculating here but many have said if it was inadvertant IMC as the pilot was trained he should have had no issue transiting to instruments and climbing to MSA.
I had a flight in a fully serviceable IFR helicopter where I had flown though an uncomfortable weather band. Upon exiting the band I experienced a single auto pilot failure which rendered the flight director unusable. The only real option in the location with no suitable landing sites was to return to base and try to fly VFR under the weather.
Unfortunately the visibility was about the worst I've experienced with a combination of heavy drizzle low cloud and fading light.
The area I knew very well and was comfortable flying around. A plan was made including the minimum altitude I would descend to as well as a plan for IIMC.
I call in this instance advertant IMC as it really wasn't unexpected when we flew into cloud.

What surprised me was how difficult it was to transition onto instruments even though I knew it was coming. Initial SOPs followed, climb initiated everything was harder as no FD (something we did train for) but getting on the instruments was hard, I was stressed and found picking up the scan difficult as well as setting stable attitudes. Now I had to talk on the radio pretty quickly then I noticed after climbing 300ft I'd flattened off and had missed it, only for seconds maybe 10-20 but it all counts below the MSA.

My point is trained or not, transitioning to an IFR scan isn't always easy. Even where I had been IMC 25 minutes before. We are all human and what may be simple one day or easy in a SIM session can be difficult on the next.
It was a real unpleasant surprise how difficult it was on that day. We were not in any danger from terrain but I knew I was behind the aircraft and quickly trying to catch up.

I think it's quiet feasible an experienced IFR pilot in an IFR helicopter can come unstuck performing what would seem a simple manoeuver.

Note, I'm not saying or implying this is what happened rather am making a general statement in regards to IIMC.

[email protected]

29th Jan 2020, 07:28

Search&Rescue

29th Jan 2020, 09:53

Instrument flying in cloud is a very perishable skill and requires recency not just currency - especially for the situation when you hadn't planned on doing it but suddenly find yourself there.

You are right SLMFS - it is a tricky transition, especially if it happens in a turn - that can be very disorientating.

It would be interesting to know when the pilot had last flown proper IMC (ie not under a hood)

If you're not prepared to transfer to instruments and fly IFR - DON'T go scud running!

Totally agree Crab. Quick decisions sometimes... VMC or IMC? If it was IIMC and the pilot (or somebody) suddenly saw ”ground reference”... it would have been very tricky to divert back to VMC with that IAS and high turn rate for a left ”U-turn”. Especially when flying single pilot...

ShyTorque

29th Jan 2020, 10:21

I was about to ask if this helicopter had a CVR/FDR (but figured I should go back a few pages to see if it was already answered).
Which sort of begs the question, why not? I would think any aircraft that is being operated "for hire" should be so equipped...

I have flown helicopters which were latterly retro-fitted with CVR/FDR but fitting them cannot directly prevent an accident per se. Obviously, a rule change could be introduced, based on the findings from CVR/FDR after an accident has taken place, but it might not have any bearing on future accidents such as this one.

However, had the aircraft been fitted with a TAWS, it might well have made a difference, if the pilot chose to act upon any terrain warning given and was able to act upon it. Having said that, the TAWS in some helicopters seems to be based around fixed wing parameters and can give spurious and distracting warnings when fitted to a helicopter going about its normal business of landing off airports (as sometimes does the one fitted to the aircraft I fly).

fdr

29th Jan 2020, 11:17

TAWS

That appears on first blush to have some merit, if the scenario is beetling about under the cloud and running into planet earth. The recent talking head former NTSB person talking about high ROD and low forward speed in the same breath as describing the accident as a high energy impact makes that somewhat clouded. TAWS can be a pain, and has it's own limitations, like finding out that the international obstacle data base is only slightly international. Just came across that last month in a foreign land. In that case, the certificated TAWS system didn't know about the obstacle, but Foreflight did. So did Garmin Pilot oddly. An ipad with blue tooth to your headset is not a bad thing, but it will drive you nuts with obstacle alerts on approaches. They are valid advisories, but can be an irritant.

In comparison to what we used to have to work with, an ipad today, (preferably with an AHRS/XM/ADSB IN) is one of the greatest safety devices ever invented. Along with seat belts. (And "HOT LIQUID" on coffee cup lids). The SA from the above mentioned programs is stunningly superior to any large transport certified aircraft system, from the A320 to the B787, give me an ipad. So much so, I run dual ipads with dual separate AHRS/ADSB IN in my jets. That talks to the A/P, and to the passengers. They cross talk. The display of traffic alone even with $300K of ADSB out 1090 & TCAS II ch 7.1, traffic display is stunning. We operate all over the world, often in places that are relatively high risk, and all up, the ipad and programs make for a better day.

Any change has potential risk, (mounting, distraction etc) but an ipad with appropriate programs in the absence of a TAWS system would seem to be a cheap insurance policy.

rogercopy

29th Jan 2020, 11:22

Maybe I missed it earlier, but was this flight being conducted under pure Part 91, or was it a Part 135 operation?
NTSB briefing Tue Jan 28 said it was Part 135 charter.

rogercopy

29th Jan 2020, 11:26

However, had the aircraft been fitted with a TAWS, it might well have made a difference, if the pilot chose to act upon any terrain warning given and was able to act upon it.
Doubtful in this case. The data most likely eliminates CFIT, and most likely leads to spatial disorientation and loss of control due to fog.

[email protected]

29th Jan 2020, 12:24

Far more important than any hi-tech gadget is a simple rule of aviation - Plan the flight and Fly the plan. If you haven't got a plan B for bad weather then you didn't plan the flight properly.

Scud running with the chance of IIMC and relying on ipad/TAWS/EGPWS to save you when it goes wrong is pure folly.

If you are low level in poor weather below the level of the surrounding terrain - you must have an escape route.

Deltasierra010

29th Jan 2020, 12:33

At the outset they did have a plan B and a plan C too consulting with ATC. The flight continued with pilot discretion until control seems to have been lost, it was the pilot discretion the seems to have gone wrong.

[email protected]

29th Jan 2020, 12:40

But plan B and C just involved continuing at low level with only a change in routing to the North of Van Nuys due to departing IFR traffic.

A proper plan B would have been to turn back early, land or pull up to IFR above SALT.

Cabby

29th Jan 2020, 13:37

If it hasn't been posted before. The article shows the a/c cockpit and rear seating configuration. Pictures of a/c being airlifted from scene.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10846762/kobe-bryants-chopper-was-missing-system-that-could-have-alerted-pilot-to-deadly-mountain-crash/?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=sunsporttwitter&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1580305716

SASless

29th Jan 2020, 13:50

SLFMS provides us a very realistic account of a personal experience.

What I have found interesting in many of similar accounts is how technology or lack of technology figures in the account.

Without meaning any criticism of anyone....but making a general statement re Pilot flying skills....absolutely mandatory skills for those in very nice machines with all sorts of Bells and Whistles.....right down to those with a bare hare style panel.....you must be able to fly BASIC INSTRUMENTS.

Think about those "Good Old Days" when you felt lucky to have an OBS Inidcator and an RMI with two Needles...a single VOR/ILS Receiver and a single ADF Receiver......we flew IFR with just that.

No Auto Pilot,No TAWS, No GPWS, No Flight Director, no RadAlt.....and our training involved flying with just the Airspeed Indicator, Mag Compass, Altimeter, and Vertical Speed Indicator.....no Attitude Indicator.......known as the Emergency Panel.

To pass my IF ride in the US Army done in a UH-1H.....among the Flight Test Ride requirements was an NDB Hold followed by an NDB Approach on Emergency Panel.

It was darn hard work and thank goodness we are blessed with new and better gizmo's that make our lives far easier.

The key is.....as a Pilot....you must be able to fly your machine no matter what you have left to work with as those gizmo's quit working.

We have had the video about "Children of the Magenta" and other warnings about the lack of adequate basic flying skills by Commercial Pilots.

There have been several Airline Crashes due that lack of basic handling skills.

The question to ask yourself.....are you prepared...capable...current...AND Proficient to fly your machine on basic flight instruments or are you just a button pusher?

If you are honest and know you come up short....what can you do to bring yourself up to that minimum standard?

As long as you are deficient....do not expose yourself to any chance of having to rely upon those skills YOU lack.

lomapaseo

29th Jan 2020, 14:07

I am concerned about the media (talk shows and late night comics) pushing the public towards demanding more in-flight safety devices like CVRs/FDRs/ and Terrain Awareness and Warning System (TAWS). Based on this accident and high profile VIP.

Just what perspective in this accident investigation supports this among the public?

In my curent myopic vision (pls help me change) The pilot said he was going up above the clouds. Does that also entail a change in course that would have been imprudent and prevented by a TAWS system?

In what way would a CVR have pointed to a single pilot mis-application?

Can the wreckage recovery still proceed to a point where it can determine if a mechanical fault occurred without reliance on a DFDR ?

Can we still not come up with a probable cause to satisfy the basis of continued safety?

I believe that it is premature to start calling for equipment changes before an investigation is completed