E-Exams Roadshow, one day to respond!

[MrAverage]

Just received a CAA letter today, inviting attendance at one of six venues - three of which are this weekend/Tuesday - with a need to respond by tomorrow!
The letter states that several attempts have been made to contact us by email. Seems like a standard letter that's sent to all ATOs/DTOs.

Has anyone actually received an email?

Are the exams being taken away from Ground Examiners?

[TheOddOne]

Hi MrAverage,
Yes, I got the letter today, thankfully someone was in the café to sign for it.

I got an e-mail before Christmas and made a booking for Weston-Super-Mare before the New Year. So far, I've not heard back as to whether or not it's been accepted. All I can do is turn up and hope I'm 'on the list'. There's an impressive amount of stuff to get through in the 3 hours allotted. I don't think we're going to get much of a 'go' on the system.

There's not a clue as far as I can tell about the fate of GR examiners or indeed how e-exams are going to work. Professional exams have been done at centres using computers for some time now. I hope we can continue to invigilate them locally but I fear the cost will go up. I'm assuming the CAA will charge a fee for logging in and the invigilator/examiner will be wanting something for their time. I'm also assuming the CAA will continue to charge a significant sum for someone to be a GR examiner. So many assumptions, no facts so far.

I'm also assuming nothing will happen to the ROCC exam and examiners. That's run by a completely different department in the CAA.

Although it's been talked about for a while, this all seems very rushed with little or no time for us to prepare locally. I've loads of questions such as what happens to paper exams already taken, how do we show exam passes on application forms, will the questions be the same as now, will the number of exams lessen (PLEASE!). Will there be a databank of questions available? What happens to the IMC/IR(R) exam?

Anyone any idea about how we're going to renew our RT examiner rating? That all seems to have gone quiet...

TOO

[BigEndBob]

Some letters need signing for, ours didn't. Probably ATo signed for and DTO no need, second class!
I know i wont have time to drop everything and go at such short notice.

[BEagle]

PLEASE go if you can - and provide honest feedback about the CAA's proposed system. Particularly how you debrief a student who has passed with less than 100%.

Having reviewed pretty well all of the 600 questions and 2400 answers (and rewritten around 10% of them) for the new LAPL/PPL exams, I can assure you that the questions themselves are vastly better than the present ones.

Whereas the proposed e-exam system is 'Nothing to do with me'..... One of the main excuses for the proposed system is that too many people cheated previously. So ye reap what ye hath sown!

(Anyone who contacts me with a request to see the new exam questions will be told to $od off - and will have their name passed straight to the CAA!)

[BigEndBob]

And they say they tried to contact via email, well we easy get the annual invoice for cash by post no problem.

[Treadstone1]

I attended the Huddersfield road show on Saturday just passed (11th Jan). I recieved the e-mail on Thursday 9th.

It was a well presented and informative presentation with a chance for a practical run through of the system at the end. All that attended seemed to be mostly pro active with some good pointers being made.

On a personal note, anything that helps to improve the theoretical knowledge of student pilots the better, what i mean by that is, it is going to make it harder for these groundschool providers who primarily teach the answers and not teach the subject, how can you start on a Monday and finish on a Friday with all 9 exams passed...I have had firsthand experience of these students and unfortunatley they know diddly squat.

I think its the way ahead.

[chrisbl]

Likewise, i was in Huddersfield too, having only got my letter on the Wednesday.

First thoughts. The CAA are finally beginning to catch up with the FAA and a computer based exam system which will stop for TK providers to teach the knowledge not the answers.

The only downside and that is the EASA requirement for at lease 120 questions to be examined is that they did not go all the way like the FAA and have just one exam across the whole syllabus. I think they ask 60 questions on the FAA PPL.

The logging on and booking exam end looks clunky especially if people do exams at different training organisations. I recall they said that there are some 320 ATOS and DTO who have exam capability. On the whole the system is ported from the Commercial e-exams and it has that feel except there are fewer test centres on the commercial side.

So the student e-portal, good in theory, and great for the commercial students might be a challenge for recreational pilots who range from 14 years old to 60 and making it wortk will be another job that is going to fall on already under paid instructors. How many 14,15 and 16 years old do you know who can provide a driving licence and utility bill, in addition to a passport to prove their identity.

As far as helping people who dont pass with 100% the printed transcript will list codes of deficiency in knowledge, I presume linked to the learning objectives. A bad fail will not give any codes just say " study harder" or words to that effect.

A pilot is proposed in April/ May with implementation in June when the paper based exams will cease. so the system will be in transition logically for 18 months. Passes on the new system will be on record with the CAA which they can match up with the 1105.

Expect to see a flurry of paper based exams until June.

Disappointed. Using an archery analogy i was hoping they had seen the bulls-eye and scored a direct hit. To me it looks like the CAA have had a shot and then drawn the bulls-eye wherever the arrow landed.

[Whopity]

A pilot is proposed in April/ May with implementation in June when the paper based exams will cease. So what happens to RTF Examiners who have one written paper in common? I am not aware of any stand alone RTF Examiners who have been invited to this process.

[chrisbl]

I might add that the IMC exam remains as now for the time being as it is a non EASA exam as the principal driver for change is EASA.

[B61]

What is driving this is that the current paper based exam system is in such as state that UK exams are not being accepted by some EASA countries and they have to move to the new system to be compliant.

i was at the Kettering show today and it is clear that much work has taken place. The 6 sittings nonsense has gone, up to 4 attempts per exam. £10 to book each one, examiner fee on top.

The biggest downer is the only feedback is going to be the learning objective failed so unless the examiner actually sits there and notes what the questions are, feedback is little more than "better luck next time".

to reduce risk, it is the Aspeq system as used for ATPL exams but adapted for PPL. And still our little Micky mouse 12 question exam papers to follow the existing system. this reduces risk and there may then be an opportunity to do say one exam on core subjects like AL, MeT, HPL and Nav in one exam, and the rest specific to A or H as another, with maybe a standalone Comms exam. This would mean subsequent further change - what's the chances of that?

the team implementing it are taking a lot of feedback so it looks very positive. But I do predict a surge in those taking paper exams so that they don't get caught as Guinea pigs in June.

[BEagle]

The amount of cheating and 'zero-to-hero in one day' answer-spotting nonsense has indeed meant that many EASA MS will not accept passes in exams taken in the UK. All exams have to be taken in one MS, but how they were sat has caused the problem.

The e-exam system will improve exam security and will also mean that the exams have to be invigilated continuously by an Examiner - so those slack organisations which have allowed the receptionist to mark the paper exams and leave them lying around in the CFI's in-tray will need to think again!

I was surprised that some at Kettering still didn't know that the '6 sittings' nonsense had been binned. The CAA published CAP1855 'Amendments to the Aircrew Regulation' in November 2019, so all examiners should have been aware of the change by now.

When the LAPL/PPL ExWG first formulated the proposals, the 'pairing' of certain exam subjects was considered, but later rejected for a number of reasons. As for the number of questions, 3 of the exams should have 16 questions, the other 6 should have 12. (16x3)+(12x6) = 120, the EASA requirement.

All question topics were given 'Level of Knowledge' values by the ExWG - 'could know', 'should know', 'must know' - and the actual questions in an exam will always include more 'must know' than anything else. Various other criteria were also applied - all questions had to be standalone, so that an incorrect answer in one question isn't then used in another. Also the awful 'which of the following is correct: 1 i & iv, 2 iii & v, 3 i & ii or 4 ii & iv ' type of question will be no more! Questions will be randomly selected from the master database and the answers will be in a random sequence for each question. So in one exam, a question from the database might have A as the correct answer, in another the correct answer to the same question might be D, although the 4 possible answers will be the same.

The cost to the Training Organisation will be £10 per booked exam - it's up to them to decide how much to charge the applicant.

The area about which I have significant concern is the so-called 'Knowledge Deficiency Report' generated by ASPEQ for incorrect answers. There is a difference between weak knowledge and a mistake; for example, if the applicant used the Imp gall SG value and the question specified US gall, that is probably an error rather than weak knowledge of how to convert volume into mass using SG (some of the incorrect answers were derived in this way - so applicants must RTFQ carefully). The Examiner needs to see the actual question with the 4 possible answers to be able to debrief the applicant as to why he/she had the wrong answer but more particularly what the correct answer is and why.

[B61]

I agree completely with beagles last paragraph. So much so that I suggested to the CAA presenter that 21st century reality is faced - the question bank will be out there on a subscription website or a commercially available Q&A book within months. Therefore I suggested that 75% of the questions be published in a CAP (along with the LO number!!) and a textbook reference and put on the CAA website. The question bank merchants who read nothing else would need to have 100% recall to pass an exam. Anyone else can practice their knowledge in advance. Or even a 50% sample, this is already done in places like Canada.

It does not matter where someone has learned a fact or essential knowledge from a textbook, instructor, or knowing the answer to a question. If they know for example that the stall happens at the critical angle of attack and what that is, they know something essential.

It also means if they come to you asking the reason for an answer, you can check to see if they have actually read anything beforehand !!

I don't know why "pairing" or combining exams was rejected? With all the IT work involved, it would be much simpler if we had just two or three exams. Or why not just one, as in North America ( or your driving test, for that matter). I would rather see a broad range of knowledge shown all together (which is what happens in the Skill Test) than intensively revised fragments, as we have now.

I challenge anyone to point to the reference in the EU 1178 document which says there MUST be 9 separate exams. The only reference with regards to Examination(s) (note the use of singular and plural) is that there must be no more than 120 questions.

[BigEndBob]

Never seen the FAA equivalent but always thought they published all the questions and answer, all be it about 1200 of them.
And how are the exams going to be paid, online before each attempt or just when all completed.
So will the club be registered to pay the fee?
Will examiner charges to CAA be reduced as i am about to renew my examiner privileges.

As ab aside i note i have had very few customers complete a night rating in one winter. (The CAP says 6 months).
We have one night a week at our field and there has been one flyable evening this winter so far.

[BEagle]

BigEndBob wrote: Never seen the FAA equivalent but always thought they published all the questions and answer, all be it about 1200 of them.

Actually, they don't. From faa.gov:
The FAA does not publish actual knowledge test questions, in part because at least two independent studies indicate that publication of active questions could negatively affect learning and understanding, as well as undermine the validity of the knowledge test as an assessment tool.

The agency does provide sample knowledge tests on the FAA website. The questions in these sample tests are intended to help applicants understand the scope and type of knowledge that will be tested to qualify for the target certificate or rating. The goal is for applicants to devote their efforts to mastering the fundamental aeronautical knowledge necessary for safe operations in the National Airspace System (NAS) rather than to memorizing specific questions and answers.

The questions that you may have seen and studied in commercially-available materials have been developed by test preparation providers for similar reasons – that is, to enable applicants to study concepts and practice calculations specified in the 14 CFR part 61 “aeronautical knowledge” requirements for each airman certificate or rating. These are not, and should not be represented to be, “real” questions.

Regarding the UK LAPL/PPL e-exams, the training organisation, examiners and applicants will all need to register on specific CAA 'portals'. That will be free of charge. When a training organisation makes an exam booking, that will cost £10. It is up to the training organisation to decide how to pass on the cost to the applicant.

[MrAverage]

B E B
We have a similar situation. Night training only on Tuesday and Wednesday (Which many of our members find difficult due to work/working late) but, only on runway 26 and only up til 20:00. The amount of time the weather plays ball means that most Night Ratings in the past have taken at least two winters. Whoever put forward the six month rule does not live in the real world........

[timprice]

Wow, that's very interesting, we haven't heard anything yet!

[TheOddOne]

I attended the Weston-Super-Mud event. I'm glad I went. I feel MUCH more positive about the whole thing, now, keen to get started on it.

26 delegates signed in, I thought there'd be more. The system seems fit for purpose, being developed from the ATPL product. In addition to Jim Marren from the CAA, a representative from the New Zealand software company gave an insightful briefing into how it will work. As Jim said, it's as easy as setting up an account and buying something on a popular on-line shopping site.

Unfortunately, there are 2 areas which are still unclear to me. In answer to BEagle's point about de-brief: I don't think we're going to see the actual question(s) that candidates fail on, or the wrong answer they gave, so won't be able to de-brief as we do now. Also, I can't see a differentiation between a pass between 75-99% and a fail above 50% in terms of the actual 'areas of weakness' report. Currently, as I understand it, if a candidate passes with some wrong answers, then you can de-brief on the actual wrong items, but if they fail with anything less than 75%, we're not supposed to. The new system will only allow a more generic 'look harder at this area' kind of debrief. The Training Organisation will get a report, as well as the candidate.

The other BIG area is around expiry of the 18 months exam period. The e-Portal system will chop ALL exams and you'll have to start another series if one exam is older than 18 months before they are all passed, whereas the majority of people in the room thought we could merely discard exams as they became 18 months old under the present system. However, one or two people pointed to the Standards Document saying this chop already was in place.. The obvious answer (to me) is not to start the exams until near the end of the flying course and make sure they are done in a more concentrated time frame. It was confirmed that it is NOT a legal requirement to pass Air Law before 1st solo, I don't know where this came from, really.

Bring it on.

TOO

[MrAverage]

TOO

That's at odds with best practice in my opinion. We insist on Air Law and Operational procedures being passed before first solo, so they at least have an idea who to give way to, what the rules are and how to behave! We then have a slightly less strict order for the other writtens. The writtens should not be left until "near the end". This "chop", which is news to me, will make it a chore for students spreading the course over more than a couple of years.

[Whopity]

It was confirmed that it is NOT a legal requirement to pass Air Law before 1st solo, I don't know where this came from, really. It has always been the case. The only exception I know of is that Military flying clubs have always required students to have passed Air Law before flying solo at military airfields.

[TheOddOne]

From Standards document 11:

4.5.2 Candidates and GR are reminded that the validity periods in FCL.025(b)(2) and (c)(1)(i) are not rolling validity periods but fixed periods.6.2 Action following a PASS

6.2.1 The GR must tell the candidate that they have passed.

6.2.2 The GR should indicate areas where weakness has been found, if applicable but should not discuss answers to specific questions.

So it seems the e-exam system is right, both in terms of the validity period and de-brief in the event of a pass and we're (some of us) not reading things properly!

If nothing else, it's made me go and re-read the Standards Document and how to apply it. Perhaps there should be more regular Examiner briefings...

My bad,

TOO

[timprice]

From Standards document 11:

4.5.2 Candidates and GR are reminded that the validity periods in FCL.025(b)(2) and (c)(1)(i) are not rolling validity periods but fixed periods.6.2 Action following a PASS

6.2.1 The GR must tell the candidate that they have passed.

6.2.2 The GR should indicate areas where weakness has been found, if applicable but should not discuss answers to specific questions.

So it seems the e-exam system is right, both in terms of the validity period and de-brief in the event of a pass and we're (some of us) not reading things properly!

If nothing else, it's made me go and re-read the Standards Document and how to apply it. Perhaps there should be more regular Examiner briefings...

My bad,

TOO
Perhaps it could be added into FE examiner brief, would be helpful if the CAA let us know in advance, often we find out by word of mouth and we know what that can lead too!

[BEagle]

6.2.1 The GR must tell the candidate that they have passed.

6.2.2 The GR should indicate areas where weakness has been found, if applicable but should not discuss answers to specific questions.


6.2.1 is a mandatory requirement, whereas 6.2.2 is only a recommendation as the words 'should not' rather than 'must not' are used. In an earlier version of SD11, the Examiner was required to debrief the candidate fully. As this confers a higher level of safety, one of the LAPL/PPL Exam Working Group's agreed requirements was that the option of conducting such a debrief for candidates, who have passed with less than 100%, must be provided in any e-exam system.

The 'Knowledge Deficiency Report' does not meet this requirement in its current form.

[TheOddOne]

The 'Knowledge Deficiency Report' does not meet this requirement in its current form.

In order to do so, it seems it would have to show the actual question the candidate got wrong, along with all 4 available answers, with the correct answer noted.

Good point about 'should'. Seems I haven't been breaking the rules, at least.

I would imagine that it isn't a software issue, more policy. Is there a concern that if specific questions and their answers were released in this way, the system would no longer satisfy the international community?

When I took my commercial exams, many moons ago, I don't recall any kind of debrief on the questions I got wrong...

TOO

[BigEndBob]

One would hope the system would debrief on fail the areas need of restudy, as i would do now by writing down basic areas without giving too much away.
Question is, what do they do in the rest of Europe.
Why not just use their system. Does it exist?

I am about to book an examiner seminar, would be a good place for these exam seminars to be repeated, as it was all too late for me to attend any.

[timprice]

No mention of any of this on CAA website in fact they only talk about ATO's and RTF's.
So how do we find out?

[BigEndBob]

So what happens at the end of the month come Brexit.
I thought it was said the CAA will issue ICAO compliant PPL, not EASA.
So does that mean the training as only to be ICAO compliant, or whatever the national CAA decide.
So any unhappiness from EASA of conduct of or type of exams won't matter.

[TheOddOne]

I believe that Her Majesty's government position is that they will retain membership of EASA, along with thousands of other organisations, whatever the outcome of 'Brexit' and subsequent negotiations turns out to be. EASA is in fact bigger than the EU, in any case. All that will happen is that we will have to abide by the rules, without being able to participate in their formulation. It's called 'taking back control'.

Even if membership of EASA ceases, a thorough overhaul of the UK PPL examination system is well overdue, so this present initiative, even if the CAA has been stung in to action by justifiable criticism from more progressive sources, is very welcome.

TOO

[Staple]

I was furious about the lack of notice. My e-mail was sent to the long defunct address of the previous accountable manager despite us supplying updated contact information by numerous means. There was no way, with my day job roster, that I could make any of the roadshows at that notice.I was extremely keen to attend as I see this as a good thing...

A couple of questions for anyone that attended....

Is there are hard date when all the current written examinations become invalid?

When are the CAA going to publish some advice / Standards / guidance documents on this? Its very adjacent!

[TheOddOne]

16 Training Organisations will trial the new system this Spring. If all goes well, it will 'go live' for the rest of us in June this year.

I don't know when a new Standards document will be published. There is disagreement amongst some about how the de-brief should work, so further work required. There was also widespread misunderstanding about what to do if one passed exam becomes over 18 months old. Many of us had just been discarding that exam. Apparently, if one exam becomes aged, then the whole series up to date has to be discarded, even an exam taken yesterday. This led to further discussion about when to start a student on the exams and the lack of necessity to take Air Law before 1st solo.

Flight examiners have to do regular seminars to standardise. Perhaps this should become a requirement for ground examiners, though inevitably the cost of attendance will have to be passed on to the student.

TOO

[Whopity]

Flight examiners have to do regular seminars to standardise. Perhaps this should become a requirement for ground examiners, though inevitably the cost of attendance will have to be passed on to the student.
The Seminar was replaced with refresher training at an ATO in a recent amendment. Whilst it amounts to the same thing, as the Training Providers are not privy to the latest examination information, only the CAA could provide appopriate training.

[chrisbl]

The day the e-exams start, the paper exams become defunct except for the IMC exam (that is not an EASA exam). You cannot have both systems running simultaneously that is nonsense.

[Whopity]

You cannot have both systems running simultaneously that is nonsense. If that is the case what provision is there to synchronise those exams completed on paper and those completed on line?

[TheOddOne]

My understanding is that it is up to the Training Organisation to state exam passes on the Course Completion Certificate, as now. It won't make any difference to this whether or not the exam was paper or -e. It will be possible to tell which is which from the date passed and the exam number taken. The composite will end at 18 months following the introduction of the -e exams. We asked if there will be any link between the -e exam system and licence issue and there were no plans to link the two - it's all up to the TO at application time.

TOO

[Whopity]

That makes sense, it should tidy the whole exam thing up. Just a pity they didn't group the subjects together into 2 papers.

[TheOddOne]

Just a pity they didn't group the subjects together into 2 papers.

Exactly! 60 questions each, 90 mins to complete - 3 mins per question.

TOO

[Mickey Kaye]

Yes. I wonder if the decision to keep 9 nine exams was taken with revenue generation in mind?

[timprice]

We could never come into line with any other EASA states that wouldn't do!!!!!
It's far better that we are all left guessing?

[BigEndBob]

So most schools i know charge £20 per exam. So will we now charging £30 per exam?
And what of resit, same charge to CAA.
Or will the examiner fee to CAA be reduced.

[Whopity]

Why would a school now be charging for an exam they no longer administer? Just charge for instruction.
Driving schools don't charge you for a driving test.

[BigEndBob]

OK then, someone from the CAA can come into my school and supply a computer, electricity, phone line, supervise the candidate.
Otherwise they, the CAA set up a test centre and i will send the candidate there and cut me out of the equation.
I am not going to do the CAA's job for nothing.

Car theory tests have to be paid for. I have never done one so i don't know who gets what cash.

[BigEndBob]

And what sort of equipment will a school need to provide, a laptop or desk top?

[Fl1ingfrog]

This is an extraordinary display of incompetence and chaos by the CAA. With only months to go prior to implementation still no one knows how this is to be carried out: the exam format, what dedicate facilities are to be provided: rooms, equipment and software and how are these facilities to be managed and by whom. What level of invigilation is required and by whom. What are the rules of conduct for a candidate sitting including debriefing. What is the guidance for charging. Nothing comes for free in this world so all costs must be found from somewhere.

What level of communication will be in place for examiners and heads of training? What administration takes place prior to skill test: ie. How will HOTs know that all exams are complete and compliant when signing the course completion certificate. So many questions and so few answers.

Surely this cannot be allowed to go ahead without a published CAP and a standards document. A student applicant should not be exploited as a guinea pig in all this although I understand the pilot sittings will be actual examinations of candidates.

[BEagle]

So most schools i know charge £20 per exam. So will we now charging £30 per exam?

And what of resit, same charge to CAA.

Or will the examiner fee to CAA be reduced.
What does the applicant actually get for their £20 at present?

With the e-exam system, exams may only be booked by the ATO/DTO for a fee of £10 per exam. The current proposal is that the booking will last for 90 days. If the applicant fails to sit the exam in that period, the fee will not be refunded. If the applicant fails the exam, a second booking will also be necessary - plus another £10 fee.

Invigilators will have to be authorised Ground Examiners and will be required to monitor the applicant's activity during the e-exam, so that no cheating / Googling or access to other websites occurs during the exam.

Theoretical Knowledge exams are supposed to be part of LAPL/PPL training, hence an adequate debriefing system is essential if the applicant is to receive any real benefit.

Exam pass records will be stored on the relevant 'portal'.

OK then, someone from the CAA can come into my school and supply a computer, electricity, phone line, supervise the candidate.

Otherwise they, the CAA set up a test centre and i will send the candidate there and cut me out of the equation.

I am not going to do the CAA's job for nothing.

How will that benefit your applicants?

[BigEndBob]

£20 goes towards the general costs of providing a building, warmth, electricity, brief debrief time of the examiner that could be flying earning money. And in the future computer and phone internet access.
It also goes towards the cost of re-validating examiner privileges every 3 years as i am about to do. Roughly £725 plus cost of travel, aircraft fuel (aircraft at my cost as i own it) and lost income for day and a half.
I would not be employing a separate GR just to oversee exams, so i have to encourage candidates to sit on rainy days so i can oversee them, as i do now.
Also charging gives the student a sense of loss if they don't pull their finger out. I only charge when they pass, which has been totally wrong on my part. 1st sit i should charge and resit free.
Candidates could go elsewhere to do exam, such as a week course, they will be charged for course time and exam sits.
Flying schools are businesses, not charities.

[Fl1ingfrog]

Undoubtedly the administration costs are going to be substantial for the ATO/DTO in dealing with the CAA registration for each of the 9 exams per student. The follow up monitoring will almost certainly be complicated with each registration and the payment for individual papers running concurrently but not necessarily in sync. Presumably the ATO/DTO will need to pay the CAA and collect the money from the student. This will not always be simple and at times will be subject to much argument at times, so a carefully designed system will be necessary. Both a dedicated exam room and an internet linked computer must be provided. The school will need to add an administration charge for all of this. The CAA are proposing to charge £90 pounds for the 9 exams plus any resits and I would suggest the school will need to charge a similar figure to cover its costs.

What is the "Portal" and how is it to be accessed by HOT and examiners?

The GR examiner will need to continuously audit to ensure the candidate's booking for each exam is correct: ie. first sitting or subsequent resit validity, if maximum sittings exhausted or time expired at 90 days or 18 months. How is this responsibility to be conducted and what time should be set aside for this - who pays? Then there is the pre exam briefing and debrief on top of the invigilation time provided by the GR examiner - who pays?. Therefore the examiner will, of course, need to continue charging as now.

Each exam sitting is likely to double in cost and rise to be in the region of £40-50.

The french have arranged the nine subjects into two groups; 'Common subjects', 48 questions in 1hr 15mins.: Air Law, Human Performance, Meteorology & Communications. 'Class Specific (Aeroplane/Helicopter)', 72 questions, 1hr.55mins; Principles of Flight, Operational Procedures, Performance, Navigation and Aircraft General. 120 questions in total

A one off payment of 60 euros (£50) becomes due to the authority on registration and remains valid for 18 months. This covers all sittings and any resits. There are no additional charges. The drawback is that the exams must be taken at a DGAC centre of which there are number spread across the country. The exams can only be taken on the specific dates and they vary from centre to centre but at some centres only during certain months of the year. From my postcode the nearest centre is 2.5 hours drive away.

The flying school takes no part in any of this other than to sign the students form.

[BigEndBob]

Well at least the French system won't get hacked into like the online system is likely to be.

[B61]

I suggested exactly the grouping the French have applied to the CAA chap Jim at The Kettering roadshow.

It it would be massively more straightforward to simplify all the online admin if we did 2/9 ths of the effort that is required.

The current uk examiner systems saves people making 2.5 hour journeys also.

There is NO REASON to have 9 exams, other than to keep the historic cock-up made by the CAA in 2013 in the interpretation of EASA regs.

[MrAverage]

BEB

For those examiners that (allegedly) abuse the system, there would appear to be no reason to hack the new online system. They can continue to ignore the rules the majority of us follow correctly and just point to the answers on the screen in the same way as they (allegedly) do with the paper versions. Similarly, there would appear to be no reason for the Irish Authority to revise their opinion of our system. I sincerely hope my assessment is incorrect.

I'm now retiring to the nearest nuclear bunker................

[Whopity]

The Ground Examiner is an exclusively UK thing and never existed under either JAR or EASA. With the move to centralised exams, the concept of the GR is no longer relevant, as they will no longer hold or administer examinations. The process of conducting CAA exams will now be an administrative process for the ATO/DTO. Any FI could debrief the candidate based upon the exam report and ideally the FI who gave the training or signed off the candidate. With no GRs thats one less fee to pay.

[Mickey Kaye]

Grouping of the exams would be excellent
I wonder why the UK didn't go with that?

[Fl1ingfrog]

So the GR examiner is to go according to Whopity and I agree the role becomes superfluous, although, from an earlier post, BEagle believes a GR examiner is expected to invigilate. More likely it could be old Tom Cobley or whoever happens to be around and knows where the key is. But, is there anything wrong with that? The candidate takes themselves to the exam room with key, if that is it is kept locked, switches on the computer and associated printer. He/she then follows the online instructions and when ready starts the exam. At the end both the result and debrief is printed out. The candidate leaves the report on the HOT's desk and at some point there may be an instructor debrief or possibly not.

The student guinea pigs will have the most difficult time. For the others it shouldn't be long before the internet is full of feedback questions and answers so any debrief will become of little value towards achieving a pass. Surely the DVLA test centres offer the answer. They are in every region, are secure and equipped and staffed for the purpose. Another good reason to organise the subjects into two relevant exam groups.

[Whopity]

As we already have GR Examiners they will probably remain, but why would anyone apply to do it in the future especially if you have to pay a fee for the priviledge? I think some form of invigilation will be required but the thought of applying to be a GR just to invigilate is not realistic. It is an admin function which a DTO/ATO will provide to keep its customers in house.
Considering the original exam concept was to have one or two papers the practice of retaining nine seperate exams is simply clinging to the past with no real purpose. Once its all up and running it should prove more satisfactory and will illiminate the open exam papers left laying about and non qualified staff marking papers. One centre per airfield might be a reasonable target.

[timprice]

I think Whopity is right, best step forward would be to have a target of at least one test centre for each airfield, similar to FAA system.
Also if the a system could be put in place for one fee for all, like the DGAC it would be far easier to sell to a student.

[BigEndBob]

Under the new system why a debrief, you don't get that at commercial level. You sit an exam, result pass or fail. If fail is there any guidance on where a candidate went wrong.

[Fl1ingfrog]

EASA, the CAA and many other european authorities are ran nowadays by managers and their clerks. Theoretical knowledge and its value to pilot safety is lost on them. They have reduced the examinations from being an assessment of valuable knowledge to being an administration process. This process for them is everything so why would they need the candidate debrief to have value other than to achieve a pass next time. A box can then be ticked. Bring on the feedback question and answer tombs for that is what suits their purpose most.

Australia, Canada, USA and many other non european authorities produce some excellent literature and genuine support of instructors and learning and they shame us.

[justmaybe]

EASA, the CAA and many other european authorities are ran nowadays by managers and their clerks. Theoretical knowledge and its value to pilot safety is lost on them. They have reduced the examinations from being an assessment of valuable knowledge to being an administration process. This process for them is everything so why would they need the candidate debrief to have value other than to achieve a pass next time. A box can then be ticked. Bring on the feedback question and answer tombs for that is what suits their purpose most.

Australia, Canada, USA and many other non european authorities produce some excellent literature and genuine support of instructors and learning and they shame us.
The exams at both professional and private level have neither academic or vocational value, and the integrity of the examinations system across EASA is laughable. Totally unfit for purpose.

[BEagle]

Under the new system why a debrief, you don't get that at commercial level. You sit an exam, result pass or fail. If fail is there any guidance on where a candidate went wrong.

You miss the point entirely. There are significant differences between theoretical knowledge exams at private and professional level:


Theoretical knowledge actually necessary for every day operations will soon become familiar to the professional pilot through company SOPs and ‘on the job training’ (OJT). However, there is no OJT for private pilots, so they may well continue their flying with blissful ignorance of why they failed a particular question, even though they passed the exam. Which could be fairly critical.
Private pilot exams are invigilated by an Examiner who is available to debrief the applicant after the exam has been completed. Whereas professional exams are conducted en masse with oversight provided by an invigilator whose primary responsibility is to prevent cheating.
Unlike an automated system, an Examiner can assess whether a failed question was due to a genuine gap in knowledge, or simply the result of a mistake - e.g. a question concerned fuel loading in US gallons and the applicant used the SG value for Imperial gallons.

[timprice]

Went to Gatwick this week on Monday 3rd Feb, the exam system actually sounds pretty similar to the US system, except 9 exams as pointed out already.
There will be guidance on the candidates form pass or fail to help the examiner to inform the student of his weak areas, unless he gets less than 50% from memory.
Overall I thought the whole seminar was presented very well by Capt Marren also a chap from Aspect(they wrote the software, plus put the exam data base together with the support of some GA individuals) was on hand to explain the in and outs of the whole online system.
It was a very useful roadshow and personally it was a positive step by the CAA to inform the industry what was going on the PPL exam front.
I just wish the other departments in the CAA would step up to the task in hand too!
One small step forward makes a huge change, well done Capt Marren and his team.