E-Exams Roadshow, one day to respond!
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E-Exams Roadshow, one day to respond!
Just received a CAA letter today, inviting attendance at one of six venues - three of which are this weekend/Tuesday - with a need to respond by tomorrow!
The letter states that several attempts have been made to contact us by email. Seems like a standard letter that's sent to all ATOs/DTOs.
Has anyone actually received an email?
Are the exams being taken away from Ground Examiners?
The letter states that several attempts have been made to contact us by email. Seems like a standard letter that's sent to all ATOs/DTOs.
Has anyone actually received an email?
Are the exams being taken away from Ground Examiners?
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Hi MrAverage,
Yes, I got the letter today, thankfully someone was in the café to sign for it.
I got an e-mail before Christmas and made a booking for Weston-Super-Mare before the New Year. So far, I've not heard back as to whether or not it's been accepted. All I can do is turn up and hope I'm 'on the list'. There's an impressive amount of stuff to get through in the 3 hours allotted. I don't think we're going to get much of a 'go' on the system.
There's not a clue as far as I can tell about the fate of GR examiners or indeed how e-exams are going to work. Professional exams have been done at centres using computers for some time now. I hope we can continue to invigilate them locally but I fear the cost will go up. I'm assuming the CAA will charge a fee for logging in and the invigilator/examiner will be wanting something for their time. I'm also assuming the CAA will continue to charge a significant sum for someone to be a GR examiner. So many assumptions, no facts so far.
I'm also assuming nothing will happen to the ROCC exam and examiners. That's run by a completely different department in the CAA.
Although it's been talked about for a while, this all seems very rushed with little or no time for us to prepare locally. I've loads of questions such as what happens to paper exams already taken, how do we show exam passes on application forms, will the questions be the same as now, will the number of exams lessen (PLEASE!). Will there be a databank of questions available? What happens to the IMC/IR(R) exam?
Anyone any idea about how we're going to renew our RT examiner rating? That all seems to have gone quiet...
TOO
Yes, I got the letter today, thankfully someone was in the café to sign for it.
I got an e-mail before Christmas and made a booking for Weston-Super-Mare before the New Year. So far, I've not heard back as to whether or not it's been accepted. All I can do is turn up and hope I'm 'on the list'. There's an impressive amount of stuff to get through in the 3 hours allotted. I don't think we're going to get much of a 'go' on the system.
There's not a clue as far as I can tell about the fate of GR examiners or indeed how e-exams are going to work. Professional exams have been done at centres using computers for some time now. I hope we can continue to invigilate them locally but I fear the cost will go up. I'm assuming the CAA will charge a fee for logging in and the invigilator/examiner will be wanting something for their time. I'm also assuming the CAA will continue to charge a significant sum for someone to be a GR examiner. So many assumptions, no facts so far.
I'm also assuming nothing will happen to the ROCC exam and examiners. That's run by a completely different department in the CAA.
Although it's been talked about for a while, this all seems very rushed with little or no time for us to prepare locally. I've loads of questions such as what happens to paper exams already taken, how do we show exam passes on application forms, will the questions be the same as now, will the number of exams lessen (PLEASE!). Will there be a databank of questions available? What happens to the IMC/IR(R) exam?
Anyone any idea about how we're going to renew our RT examiner rating? That all seems to have gone quiet...
TOO
PLEASE go if you can - and provide honest feedback about the CAA's proposed system. Particularly how you debrief a student who has passed with less than 100%.
Having reviewed pretty well all of the 600 questions and 2400 answers (and rewritten around 10% of them) for the new LAPL/PPL exams, I can assure you that the questions themselves are vastly better than the present ones.
Whereas the proposed e-exam system is 'Nothing to do with me'..... One of the main excuses for the proposed system is that too many people cheated previously. So ye reap what ye hath sown!
(Anyone who contacts me with a request to see the new exam questions will be told to $od off - and will have their name passed straight to the CAA!)
Having reviewed pretty well all of the 600 questions and 2400 answers (and rewritten around 10% of them) for the new LAPL/PPL exams, I can assure you that the questions themselves are vastly better than the present ones.
Whereas the proposed e-exam system is 'Nothing to do with me'..... One of the main excuses for the proposed system is that too many people cheated previously. So ye reap what ye hath sown!
(Anyone who contacts me with a request to see the new exam questions will be told to $od off - and will have their name passed straight to the CAA!)
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I attended the Huddersfield road show on Saturday just passed (11th Jan). I recieved the e-mail on Thursday 9th.
It was a well presented and informative presentation with a chance for a practical run through of the system at the end. All that attended seemed to be mostly pro active with some good pointers being made.
On a personal note, anything that helps to improve the theoretical knowledge of student pilots the better, what i mean by that is, it is going to make it harder for these groundschool providers who primarily teach the answers and not teach the subject, how can you start on a Monday and finish on a Friday with all 9 exams passed...I have had firsthand experience of these students and unfortunatley they know diddly squat.
I think its the way ahead.
It was a well presented and informative presentation with a chance for a practical run through of the system at the end. All that attended seemed to be mostly pro active with some good pointers being made.
On a personal note, anything that helps to improve the theoretical knowledge of student pilots the better, what i mean by that is, it is going to make it harder for these groundschool providers who primarily teach the answers and not teach the subject, how can you start on a Monday and finish on a Friday with all 9 exams passed...I have had firsthand experience of these students and unfortunatley they know diddly squat.
I think its the way ahead.
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Likewise, i was in Huddersfield too, having only got my letter on the Wednesday.
First thoughts. The CAA are finally beginning to catch up with the FAA and a computer based exam system which will stop for TK providers to teach the knowledge not the answers.
The only downside and that is the EASA requirement for at lease 120 questions to be examined is that they did not go all the way like the FAA and have just one exam across the whole syllabus. I think they ask 60 questions on the FAA PPL.
The logging on and booking exam end looks clunky especially if people do exams at different training organisations. I recall they said that there are some 320 ATOS and DTO who have exam capability. On the whole the system is ported from the Commercial e-exams and it has that feel except there are fewer test centres on the commercial side.
So the student e-portal, good in theory, and great for the commercial students might be a challenge for recreational pilots who range from 14 years old to 60 and making it wortk will be another job that is going to fall on already under paid instructors. How many 14,15 and 16 years old do you know who can provide a driving licence and utility bill, in addition to a passport to prove their identity.
As far as helping people who dont pass with 100% the printed transcript will list codes of deficiency in knowledge, I presume linked to the learning objectives. A bad fail will not give any codes just say " study harder" or words to that effect.
A pilot is proposed in April/ May with implementation in June when the paper based exams will cease. so the system will be in transition logically for 18 months. Passes on the new system will be on record with the CAA which they can match up with the 1105.
Expect to see a flurry of paper based exams until June.
Disappointed. Using an archery analogy i was hoping they had seen the bulls-eye and scored a direct hit. To me it looks like the CAA have had a shot and then drawn the bulls-eye wherever the arrow landed.
First thoughts. The CAA are finally beginning to catch up with the FAA and a computer based exam system which will stop for TK providers to teach the knowledge not the answers.
The only downside and that is the EASA requirement for at lease 120 questions to be examined is that they did not go all the way like the FAA and have just one exam across the whole syllabus. I think they ask 60 questions on the FAA PPL.
The logging on and booking exam end looks clunky especially if people do exams at different training organisations. I recall they said that there are some 320 ATOS and DTO who have exam capability. On the whole the system is ported from the Commercial e-exams and it has that feel except there are fewer test centres on the commercial side.
So the student e-portal, good in theory, and great for the commercial students might be a challenge for recreational pilots who range from 14 years old to 60 and making it wortk will be another job that is going to fall on already under paid instructors. How many 14,15 and 16 years old do you know who can provide a driving licence and utility bill, in addition to a passport to prove their identity.
As far as helping people who dont pass with 100% the printed transcript will list codes of deficiency in knowledge, I presume linked to the learning objectives. A bad fail will not give any codes just say " study harder" or words to that effect.
A pilot is proposed in April/ May with implementation in June when the paper based exams will cease. so the system will be in transition logically for 18 months. Passes on the new system will be on record with the CAA which they can match up with the 1105.
Expect to see a flurry of paper based exams until June.
Disappointed. Using an archery analogy i was hoping they had seen the bulls-eye and scored a direct hit. To me it looks like the CAA have had a shot and then drawn the bulls-eye wherever the arrow landed.
A pilot is proposed in April/ May with implementation in June when the paper based exams will cease.
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What is driving this is that the current paper based exam system is in such as state that UK exams are not being accepted by some EASA countries and they have to move to the new system to be compliant.
i was at the Kettering show today and it is clear that much work has taken place. The 6 sittings nonsense has gone, up to 4 attempts per exam. £10 to book each one, examiner fee on top.
The biggest downer is the only feedback is going to be the learning objective failed so unless the examiner actually sits there and notes what the questions are, feedback is little more than "better luck next time".
to reduce risk, it is the Aspeq system as used for ATPL exams but adapted for PPL. And still our little Micky mouse 12 question exam papers to follow the existing system. this reduces risk and there may then be an opportunity to do say one exam on core subjects like AL, MeT, HPL and Nav in one exam, and the rest specific to A or H as another, with maybe a standalone Comms exam. This would mean subsequent further change - what's the chances of that?
the team implementing it are taking a lot of feedback so it looks very positive. But I do predict a surge in those taking paper exams so that they don't get caught as Guinea pigs in June.
i was at the Kettering show today and it is clear that much work has taken place. The 6 sittings nonsense has gone, up to 4 attempts per exam. £10 to book each one, examiner fee on top.
The biggest downer is the only feedback is going to be the learning objective failed so unless the examiner actually sits there and notes what the questions are, feedback is little more than "better luck next time".
to reduce risk, it is the Aspeq system as used for ATPL exams but adapted for PPL. And still our little Micky mouse 12 question exam papers to follow the existing system. this reduces risk and there may then be an opportunity to do say one exam on core subjects like AL, MeT, HPL and Nav in one exam, and the rest specific to A or H as another, with maybe a standalone Comms exam. This would mean subsequent further change - what's the chances of that?
the team implementing it are taking a lot of feedback so it looks very positive. But I do predict a surge in those taking paper exams so that they don't get caught as Guinea pigs in June.
E-EXAMS
The amount of cheating and 'zero-to-hero in one day' answer-spotting nonsense has indeed meant that many EASA MS will not accept passes in exams taken in the UK. All exams have to be taken in one MS, but how they were sat has caused the problem.
The e-exam system will improve exam security and will also mean that the exams have to be invigilated continuously by an Examiner - so those slack organisations which have allowed the receptionist to mark the paper exams and leave them lying around in the CFI's in-tray will need to think again!
I was surprised that some at Kettering still didn't know that the '6 sittings' nonsense had been binned. The CAA published CAP1855 'Amendments to the Aircrew Regulation' in November 2019, so all examiners should have been aware of the change by now.
When the LAPL/PPL ExWG first formulated the proposals, the 'pairing' of certain exam subjects was considered, but later rejected for a number of reasons. As for the number of questions, 3 of the exams should have 16 questions, the other 6 should have 12. (16x3)+(12x6) = 120, the EASA requirement.
All question topics were given 'Level of Knowledge' values by the ExWG - 'could know', 'should know', 'must know' - and the actual questions in an exam will always include more 'must know' than anything else. Various other criteria were also applied - all questions had to be standalone, so that an incorrect answer in one question isn't then used in another. Also the awful 'which of the following is correct: 1 i & iv, 2 iii & v, 3 i & ii or 4 ii & iv ' type of question will be no more! Questions will be randomly selected from the master database and the answers will be in a random sequence for each question. So in one exam, a question from the database might have A as the correct answer, in another the correct answer to the same question might be D, although the 4 possible answers will be the same.
The cost to the Training Organisation will be £10 per booked exam - it's up to them to decide how much to charge the applicant.
The area about which I have significant concern is the so-called 'Knowledge Deficiency Report' generated by ASPEQ for incorrect answers. There is a difference between weak knowledge and a mistake; for example, if the applicant used the Imp gall SG value and the question specified US gall, that is probably an error rather than weak knowledge of how to convert volume into mass using SG (some of the incorrect answers were derived in this way - so applicants must RTFQ carefully). The Examiner needs to see the actual question with the 4 possible answers to be able to debrief the applicant as to why he/she had the wrong answer but more particularly what the correct answer is and why.
The e-exam system will improve exam security and will also mean that the exams have to be invigilated continuously by an Examiner - so those slack organisations which have allowed the receptionist to mark the paper exams and leave them lying around in the CFI's in-tray will need to think again!
I was surprised that some at Kettering still didn't know that the '6 sittings' nonsense had been binned. The CAA published CAP1855 'Amendments to the Aircrew Regulation' in November 2019, so all examiners should have been aware of the change by now.
When the LAPL/PPL ExWG first formulated the proposals, the 'pairing' of certain exam subjects was considered, but later rejected for a number of reasons. As for the number of questions, 3 of the exams should have 16 questions, the other 6 should have 12. (16x3)+(12x6) = 120, the EASA requirement.
All question topics were given 'Level of Knowledge' values by the ExWG - 'could know', 'should know', 'must know' - and the actual questions in an exam will always include more 'must know' than anything else. Various other criteria were also applied - all questions had to be standalone, so that an incorrect answer in one question isn't then used in another. Also the awful 'which of the following is correct: 1 i & iv, 2 iii & v, 3 i & ii or 4 ii & iv ' type of question will be no more! Questions will be randomly selected from the master database and the answers will be in a random sequence for each question. So in one exam, a question from the database might have A as the correct answer, in another the correct answer to the same question might be D, although the 4 possible answers will be the same.
The cost to the Training Organisation will be £10 per booked exam - it's up to them to decide how much to charge the applicant.
The area about which I have significant concern is the so-called 'Knowledge Deficiency Report' generated by ASPEQ for incorrect answers. There is a difference between weak knowledge and a mistake; for example, if the applicant used the Imp gall SG value and the question specified US gall, that is probably an error rather than weak knowledge of how to convert volume into mass using SG (some of the incorrect answers were derived in this way - so applicants must RTFQ carefully). The Examiner needs to see the actual question with the 4 possible answers to be able to debrief the applicant as to why he/she had the wrong answer but more particularly what the correct answer is and why.
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I agree completely with beagles last paragraph. So much so that I suggested to the CAA presenter that 21st century reality is faced - the question bank will be out there on a subscription website or a commercially available Q&A book within months. Therefore I suggested that 75% of the questions be published in a CAP (along with the LO number!!) and a textbook reference and put on the CAA website. The question bank merchants who read nothing else would need to have 100% recall to pass an exam. Anyone else can practice their knowledge in advance. Or even a 50% sample, this is already done in places like Canada.
It does not matter where someone has learned a fact or essential knowledge from a textbook, instructor, or knowing the answer to a question. If they know for example that the stall happens at the critical angle of attack and what that is, they know something essential.
It also means if they come to you asking the reason for an answer, you can check to see if they have actually read anything beforehand !!
I don't know why "pairing" or combining exams was rejected? With all the IT work involved, it would be much simpler if we had just two or three exams. Or why not just one, as in North America ( or your driving test, for that matter). I would rather see a broad range of knowledge shown all together (which is what happens in the Skill Test) than intensively revised fragments, as we have now.
I challenge anyone to point to the reference in the EU 1178 document which says there MUST be 9 separate exams. The only reference with regards to Examination(s) (note the use of singular and plural) is that there must be no more than 120 questions.
It does not matter where someone has learned a fact or essential knowledge from a textbook, instructor, or knowing the answer to a question. If they know for example that the stall happens at the critical angle of attack and what that is, they know something essential.
It also means if they come to you asking the reason for an answer, you can check to see if they have actually read anything beforehand !!
I don't know why "pairing" or combining exams was rejected? With all the IT work involved, it would be much simpler if we had just two or three exams. Or why not just one, as in North America ( or your driving test, for that matter). I would rather see a broad range of knowledge shown all together (which is what happens in the Skill Test) than intensively revised fragments, as we have now.
I challenge anyone to point to the reference in the EU 1178 document which says there MUST be 9 separate exams. The only reference with regards to Examination(s) (note the use of singular and plural) is that there must be no more than 120 questions.
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Never seen the FAA equivalent but always thought they published all the questions and answer, all be it about 1200 of them.
And how are the exams going to be paid, online before each attempt or just when all completed.
So will the club be registered to pay the fee?
Will examiner charges to CAA be reduced as i am about to renew my examiner privileges.
As ab aside i note i have had very few customers complete a night rating in one winter. (The CAP says 6 months).
We have one night a week at our field and there has been one flyable evening this winter so far.
And how are the exams going to be paid, online before each attempt or just when all completed.
So will the club be registered to pay the fee?
Will examiner charges to CAA be reduced as i am about to renew my examiner privileges.
As ab aside i note i have had very few customers complete a night rating in one winter. (The CAP says 6 months).
We have one night a week at our field and there has been one flyable evening this winter so far.
BigEndBob wrote:
Actually, they don't. From faa.gov:
Regarding the UK LAPL/PPL e-exams, the training organisation, examiners and applicants will all need to register on specific CAA 'portals'. That will be free of charge. When a training organisation makes an exam booking, that will cost £10. It is up to the training organisation to decide how to pass on the cost to the applicant.
Never seen the FAA equivalent but always thought they published all the questions and answer, all be it about 1200 of them.
The FAA does not publish actual knowledge test questions, in part because at least two independent studies indicate that publication of active questions could negatively affect learning and understanding, as well as undermine the validity of the knowledge test as an assessment tool.
The agency does provide sample knowledge tests on the FAA website. The questions in these sample tests are intended to help applicants understand the scope and type of knowledge that will be tested to qualify for the target certificate or rating. The goal is for applicants to devote their efforts to mastering the fundamental aeronautical knowledge necessary for safe operations in the National Airspace System (NAS) rather than to memorizing specific questions and answers.
The questions that you may have seen and studied in commercially-available materials have been developed by test preparation providers for similar reasons – that is, to enable applicants to study concepts and practice calculations specified in the 14 CFR part 61 “aeronautical knowledge” requirements for each airman certificate or rating. These are not, and should not be represented to be, “real” questions.
The agency does provide sample knowledge tests on the FAA website. The questions in these sample tests are intended to help applicants understand the scope and type of knowledge that will be tested to qualify for the target certificate or rating. The goal is for applicants to devote their efforts to mastering the fundamental aeronautical knowledge necessary for safe operations in the National Airspace System (NAS) rather than to memorizing specific questions and answers.
The questions that you may have seen and studied in commercially-available materials have been developed by test preparation providers for similar reasons – that is, to enable applicants to study concepts and practice calculations specified in the 14 CFR part 61 “aeronautical knowledge” requirements for each airman certificate or rating. These are not, and should not be represented to be, “real” questions.
Thread Starter
B E B
We have a similar situation. Night training only on Tuesday and Wednesday (Which many of our members find difficult due to work/working late) but, only on runway 26 and only up til 20:00. The amount of time the weather plays ball means that most Night Ratings in the past have taken at least two winters. Whoever put forward the six month rule does not live in the real world........
We have a similar situation. Night training only on Tuesday and Wednesday (Which many of our members find difficult due to work/working late) but, only on runway 26 and only up til 20:00. The amount of time the weather plays ball means that most Night Ratings in the past have taken at least two winters. Whoever put forward the six month rule does not live in the real world........
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I attended the Weston-Super-Mud event. I'm glad I went. I feel MUCH more positive about the whole thing, now, keen to get started on it.
26 delegates signed in, I thought there'd be more. The system seems fit for purpose, being developed from the ATPL product. In addition to Jim Marren from the CAA, a representative from the New Zealand software company gave an insightful briefing into how it will work. As Jim said, it's as easy as setting up an account and buying something on a popular on-line shopping site.
Unfortunately, there are 2 areas which are still unclear to me. In answer to BEagle's point about de-brief: I don't think we're going to see the actual question(s) that candidates fail on, or the wrong answer they gave, so won't be able to de-brief as we do now. Also, I can't see a differentiation between a pass between 75-99% and a fail above 50% in terms of the actual 'areas of weakness' report. Currently, as I understand it, if a candidate passes with some wrong answers, then you can de-brief on the actual wrong items, but if they fail with anything less than 75%, we're not supposed to. The new system will only allow a more generic 'look harder at this area' kind of debrief. The Training Organisation will get a report, as well as the candidate.
The other BIG area is around expiry of the 18 months exam period. The e-Portal system will chop ALL exams and you'll have to start another series if one exam is older than 18 months before they are all passed, whereas the majority of people in the room thought we could merely discard exams as they became 18 months old under the present system. However, one or two people pointed to the Standards Document saying this chop already was in place.. The obvious answer (to me) is not to start the exams until near the end of the flying course and make sure they are done in a more concentrated time frame. It was confirmed that it is NOT a legal requirement to pass Air Law before 1st solo, I don't know where this came from, really.
Bring it on.
TOO
26 delegates signed in, I thought there'd be more. The system seems fit for purpose, being developed from the ATPL product. In addition to Jim Marren from the CAA, a representative from the New Zealand software company gave an insightful briefing into how it will work. As Jim said, it's as easy as setting up an account and buying something on a popular on-line shopping site.
Unfortunately, there are 2 areas which are still unclear to me. In answer to BEagle's point about de-brief: I don't think we're going to see the actual question(s) that candidates fail on, or the wrong answer they gave, so won't be able to de-brief as we do now. Also, I can't see a differentiation between a pass between 75-99% and a fail above 50% in terms of the actual 'areas of weakness' report. Currently, as I understand it, if a candidate passes with some wrong answers, then you can de-brief on the actual wrong items, but if they fail with anything less than 75%, we're not supposed to. The new system will only allow a more generic 'look harder at this area' kind of debrief. The Training Organisation will get a report, as well as the candidate.
The other BIG area is around expiry of the 18 months exam period. The e-Portal system will chop ALL exams and you'll have to start another series if one exam is older than 18 months before they are all passed, whereas the majority of people in the room thought we could merely discard exams as they became 18 months old under the present system. However, one or two people pointed to the Standards Document saying this chop already was in place.. The obvious answer (to me) is not to start the exams until near the end of the flying course and make sure they are done in a more concentrated time frame. It was confirmed that it is NOT a legal requirement to pass Air Law before 1st solo, I don't know where this came from, really.
Bring it on.
TOO
Thread Starter
TOO
That's at odds with best practice in my opinion. We insist on Air Law and Operational procedures being passed before first solo, so they at least have an idea who to give way to, what the rules are and how to behave! We then have a slightly less strict order for the other writtens. The writtens should not be left until "near the end". This "chop", which is news to me, will make it a chore for students spreading the course over more than a couple of years.
That's at odds with best practice in my opinion. We insist on Air Law and Operational procedures being passed before first solo, so they at least have an idea who to give way to, what the rules are and how to behave! We then have a slightly less strict order for the other writtens. The writtens should not be left until "near the end". This "chop", which is news to me, will make it a chore for students spreading the course over more than a couple of years.
It was confirmed that it is NOT a legal requirement to pass Air Law before 1st solo, I don't know where this came from, really.
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From Standards document 11:
4.5.2 Candidates and GR are reminded that the validity periods in FCL.025(b)(2) and (c)(1)(i) are not rolling validity periods but fixed periods.6.2 Action following a PASS
6.2.1 The GR must tell the candidate that they have passed.
6.2.2 The GR should indicate areas where weakness has been found, if applicable but should not discuss answers to specific questions.
So it seems the e-exam system is right, both in terms of the validity period and de-brief in the event of a pass and we're (some of us) not reading things properly!
If nothing else, it's made me go and re-read the Standards Document and how to apply it. Perhaps there should be more regular Examiner briefings...
My bad,
TOO
4.5.2 Candidates and GR are reminded that the validity periods in FCL.025(b)(2) and (c)(1)(i) are not rolling validity periods but fixed periods.6.2 Action following a PASS
6.2.1 The GR must tell the candidate that they have passed.
6.2.2 The GR should indicate areas where weakness has been found, if applicable but should not discuss answers to specific questions.
So it seems the e-exam system is right, both in terms of the validity period and de-brief in the event of a pass and we're (some of us) not reading things properly!
If nothing else, it's made me go and re-read the Standards Document and how to apply it. Perhaps there should be more regular Examiner briefings...
My bad,
TOO
Last edited by TheOddOne; 15th Jan 2020 at 09:08.