Sim recurrent training : In uniform or not ?

[crjo]

Hello all,

I’ve been with Air France for the last 20+ years.
We’ve always done our recurrent sim training as well as type ratings in “civilian” clothing.
Management has just advised us that, starting next year, we’ll have to be in uniform for all sim sessions.

i just wanted to get the lay of the land out there. If you could reply with the name of your Airline and wether being in Uniform is mandatory for sims, I would be very grateful.

[fox niner]

Well.....
KLM does its simming in civilian clothing.
Surely hope that our mutual holding management does not force us to do the same. so just to be sure: which management exactly? AF managers or AFKL holding managers?

[what next]

Hello!

Myself I have always worked for bizjet operators. Some of the simulator training centers we use (in the UK and the United States) also have airline customers. On various occasions I have visited pure large jet simulator centers, including one of the German flag carrier. Never have I seen a pilot in uniform in any of these centers. With the sole exception of some military crews who were wearing flying overalls.

[Check Airman]

Never seen or heard of anyone wearing a uniform to the simulator in the US. I’m curious to know the logic behind that change.

[what next]

I’m curious to know the logic behind that change.

The only explanation I can think of is to make it as realistic as possible.

[pineteam]

Air China does that. Mine does not. Only rule is to wear a pant and a shirt or polo. Maybe some guys were stepping in the sim wearing shorts and flip flops lol.

[DuneMentat]

At EK it's basic uniform (no hat or jacket) for all training events

[PAJ]

easyJet introduced uniform for all sim events from 1st Oct 19 - professional standards was quoted as the reason as we started using our 3 new sim centres. In reality, think management had got quite frustrated that the attire some were deeming acceptable. T-shirts, ripped jeans, dirty trainers...had everyone worn smart jeans or chinos and a collared shirt, I doubt this change would have manifested itself. Instructors also now all in uniform too. Would be nice not to be in uniform but there are bigger fights to be had at present I think was the general consensus.

[jmmoric]

Well... we all get paid to go to work, if they want us in a uniform.... then I'll put on one.... I guess I'm paid for it anyway.... and I guess they'll pay the uniform as well..

[M.Mouse]

British Airways mandated uniform for simulator training way back in the 90s if I recall correctly.

I am not sure of the rationale or whether it actually makes a scrap of difference!


(Edited for spelling)

[601]

British Airways mandated uniform for simulator training way back in the 90s if I recall correctly.

Do BA crew line up outside the sim and allow the Commander to enter first?

[what next]

Well... we all get paid to go to work, if they want us in a uniform.... then I'll put on one....

Maybe, but as we all are super clever girls and boys we like to be given an explanation for things we are supposed to do. They tell us that we need to wear the uniform they buy us (or that we have to buy ourselves in more companies that one may think...) because of the passengers. There is no other reason. Not even the CEOs and other executives of many airlines are required to observe any dresscode as long as they are in their offices. Some of them not even outside their office (I have not yet seen a picture of Richard Branson wearing a jacket and tie...). And as there are no passengers or other clients around the simulator the only reason for a uniform is no longer there.

[aterpster]

easyJet introduced uniform for all sim events from 1st Oct 19 - professional standards was quoted as the reason as we started using our 3 new sim centres. In reality, think management had got quite frustrated that the attire some were deeming acceptable. T-shirts, ripped jeans, dirty trainers...had everyone worn smart jeans or chinos and a collared shirt, I doubt this change would have manifested itself. Instructors also now all in uniform too. Would be nice not to be in uniform but there are bigger fights to be had at present I think was the general consensus.
That's likely the reason rather than "enhanced realism."

[tow1709]

SLF here. Are sim sessions routinely recorded on video? If so, then makes sense if some sessions are chosen to be used for further training purposes. Adds realism, as I think someone has already said.

[Herod]

Not mandatory in my old company, but most of us wore uniform. "on duty" and "adds realism" are two reasons perhaps, but I would also add that if I'm going to sit in a dirty seat (and let's be honest, they are), I'll do it in the company's clothes, thank you very much.

[JanetFlight]

Air China Airlines do that.

Sorry...!!???
1) Air China (China)
2) China Airlines "Dynasty" (Taiwan)

[deltahotel]

I’m with Herod on this. Sims are pretty grubby places and I’d rather wear company kit than my own - at the end of the day it’s just trousers, shirt, jumper, shoes and no decision making to do.

[blind pew]

BEA ..FULL UNIFORM CAPTAIN IN FIRST - Trident
BA (boac) civies no bullxxt but that was B4 BEA management came over.
SR civies ..latter two we were allowed to do our own throttles which is another subject ;🤐
Maybe just a coincidence but the more money I was paid the less formal the job became.

[Brian Pern]

Utter bo@@ocks.
I have never worn uniform for a sim.
Heck even when i have positioned an Aircraft we always wore civvys. One uses common sense. We are grown ups after all.

[JW411]

I spent a lot of time in simulators in my 31 years of civil aviation. The only airlines I ever saw in uniform were BA and Gulfair.

[Jetstream67]

Maybe, but as we all are super clever girls and boys we like to be given an explanation for things we are supposed to do. They tell us that we need to wear the uniform they buy us (or that we have to buy ourselves in more companies that one may think...) because of the passengers. There is no other reason. Not even the CEOs and other executives of many airlines are required to observe any dresscode as long as they are in their offices. Some of them not even outside their office (I have not yet seen a picture of Richard Branson wearing a jacket and tie...). And as there are no passengers or other clients around the simulator the only reason for a uniform is no longer there.


Any sighting of Richard Branson in a tie is definitely an imposter

[dixi188]

Never been in uniform for sim sessions, cargo ops, Channel Express and EAT.
Used to use an Air France A300 sim at Orly 15 to 20 years ago, and the in flight meals for the AF crews included a small bottle of wine. Does this still happen?

[Kelly Hopper]

I always felt I could perform a little better in uniform. Which is why I always wore it on POS flights. But in the sim??? That is another story. Another story again when all sim trg is done on your days off! But just another example of how you are all a slave to your master? Wearing 4 stripes and being branded a Captain means.... nothing I am afraid. 'Still a blue collar worker? I wish it were different.

[Airbubba]

I’m with Herod on this. Sims are pretty grubby places and I’d rather wear company kit than my own - at the end of the day it’s just trousers, shirt, jumper, shoes and no decision making to do.

I've seen about every variation over the years. At Pan Am in the closing days if you wore faded jeans and dirty running shoes in the sim building you were a line guy. If you wore a tie you were an instructor. And if you wore a dark suit you were in the building for a newhire interview sim ride.

[Paul852]

Any sighting of Richard Branson in a tie is definitely an imposter

There appears to be one exception...

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/513x366/bransoninatie_ac8975d534bac4bede89bb0d30556925e054d329.jpg

[sonicbum]

We started wearing uniforms some time ago (European Flag Carrier) and I am quite happy about it because of :
A) It does help realism
B) Don’t have to wear my clothes while seating on sweaty/dirty seats.
C) You have “work clothes” and “time off” clothes, which, if You spend 15 days + a month in the SIM is good.
D) If I get ink/coffee stains on my uniform shirt/trousers I don’t care, if it is washable good otherwise I order a new one. If that happens on personal shirts and trousers I get annoyed. And no, I never wore cheap jeans and t-shirts in the sim, it’s still a workplace.

[Ollie Onion]

Having been at airlines that do both I much prefer to wear uniform in the Sim. I have always found it strange when they tell you ‘treat it like the real aircraft’ and ‘try and forget you are in the sim’ while the person next to you is in civilian clothes. Being in uniform helps with the realism and it is easy. Lots of people at my current job just end up wearing their basic uniform pants and white shirt without all the bling.

[AmarokGTI]

Large regional airline in Australia. We can do either. Check Captain has always in my experience worn business attire, unless they have come to the sim immediately after an operating duty. I wear uniform if i can for the simple reason that I just like it to be as close to a normal day at work as possible, as I tend to perform better that way. Most often the person next to me is in uniform as well.

[Mr Good Cat]

Channel Express

Not any more. Full uniform required for Jet2 sim duties.

I’ve done both and for me I find wearing the full uniform actually helps a little. Psychologically puts me in the mindset before I even step in to the sim. Just like the walk to the crew room for a flight - if I was in civvies I don’t think I would ‘feel’ what I needed to feel before a flight.

Everyone is different I guess. On the other side of the coin I don’t think I could chill out on the sofa with a beer wearing a tie and epaulettes.

[simmple]

We used a sim centre with a variety of aircraft and airlines operating 24/7
never saw anyone wearing a uniform apart from some cadets, though not in airline togs were all dressed the same, black trousers, white shirt and dark jumper.

[Brian Pern]

Sorry to say, but a uniform does not make me a better or worse pilot, flight tests, ferrying 737's round the globe, Sims all done in normal clothes. I don't need the uniform to put me in right frame of mind. Must be an old crusty then.

[kikatinalong]

J2 sims in uniform.

[lear999wa]

If pilots are expected to wear a uniform for the Sim. Then we should expect office staff to be in suit and tie whilst at the office.

[gtseraf]

Do BA crew line up outside the sim and allow the Commander to enter first?


That should be the norm, it shows respect for the Captain and the chain of command.

[flyfan]

Recurrent sims: Just normal (office) clothing for yellow&blue. Typerating: Uniform without stripes is to be worn.

[kriskross]

I flew with a South East Asia company back in the 90s with a lot of my former colleagues from a disappeared UK carrier. Then we had to wear uniforms in the Sim. What really amazed me was that we had to do a wet dinghy drill ( we flew over a lot of water, even on 'domestic' flights') and we had to be in uniform for that as well!! Do the instructor/examiners have to be in uniform as well? Shades of discrimination here!!

[mrdeux]

Qantas do not wear uniform. How would that improve realism? It’s a pitch black cockpit, the other guy could wear pyjamas for all I’d know (or care).

[Max Angle]

At BA we even have to wear uniform for SEP refresher and ground school safety courses etc. Ludicrous.

[cessnapete]

In BA the wearing of uniform for sims was mandated with the BOAC merger with BEA. We had to be seen to share some SOPs, to keep everyone happy. Bit silly really, as was our adoption of their Monitored Approach SOP,
Apparently BEA Management reckoned that you fly a better ILS in uniform.

[Dualbleed]

It’s an exercise so gym wear will do. You are supposed to be a little sweaty after so polyester uniform is no good.

[RubberDogPoop]

ANZ uniform worn for last 4 or 5 years. "Enclothed cognition" was the buzz word spouted at the time...

[ManaAdaSystem]

I’ve been with carriers who do both. I much prefer no uniform. I have never once thought about what the other guy/girl wears.
Oh, he wears a uniform so I must be in the real aircraft? Nope, I know where I am.

If I have to pick up or deliver an empty aircraft, I wear normal clothes as well. Unless the place I fly to or from is some weird place where a uniform will help you get to or from the aircraft.

[Check Airman]

Qantas do not wear uniform. How would that improve realism? It’s a pitch black cockpit, the other guy could wear pyjamas for all I’d know (or care).

I was on a cargo flight recently. 2 of the pilots changed into pyjamas in flight. I liked that relaxed sort of atmosphere.

I see the argument for getting into the right frame of mind for the sim. Although, the one time I got dressed up for the sim, my performance was poorer than usual. We do business casual for sim here. Also allowed to wear business casual if operating non-revenue flights, which I’ve done several times. Didn’t affect my performance.

[RHSandLovingIt]

AirNZ Regional... "basic" uniform in the sim (don't need the jacket or the hat etc). They're rostered work days... can't say it really bothers me one way or the other, saves me 5 minutes in the morning trying to figure out what I'm going to wear I guess... plus I know where my pen is! :}

Only exception was the initial type rating (which was completed in another country), chinos and a collared shirt... was not a "rule" as such, more that I think the Sim Instructor couldn't be arsed with uniform and none of the other outfits using that sim centre seemed to wear uniform :p

[pineteam]

Sorry...!!???
1) Air China (China)
2) China Airlines "Dynasty" (Taiwan)

Yes sorry, was a typo. I meant Air China. xD

[AerocatS2A]

Have worked for a company where sims were chinos and collared shirt or similar and now working for one where it is basic uniform (Air NZ). My personal hierarchy of clothing comfort, from most comfortable to least, is jeans and t-shirt, work uniform, chinos and shirt, suit. So, if I can’t wear jeans and t-shirt, I’d rather wear uniform. I also like having my pen in the usual spot on my shirt.

[Klimax]

In Cathay Pacific (aka Cathay Pathetic Airways) uniforms for simulators was required - but then again what would you expect from a draconian outfit. I thought this was more of a Pommy thing - it´s hard to believe the Frenchies are going to implement such a concept in their training. To make it more realistic is mentioned a few times. It´s a simulator - it´s not an airplane - wearing a clown outfit won´t change that fact. It´s a training tool. You´re there for training and hopefully to learn something new or be reminded of something you forgot. Line checking is where you where your uniform, check the notams, call the weather man, ask for your tea and biscuits etc..

[ScepticalOptomist]

That should be the norm, it shows respect for the Captain and the chain of command.

oh wow :ugh:

We are way more relaxed at my company. We all know who the boss is - and the respect flows in both directions.

[Rated De]

It was the weeks before Christmas, the eerie breeze wafting through echo chambers of offices, long deserted by the swarms of HR and IR practitioners.
The departed contributing exactly as much to operating revenue and amenity in their absence as they do when they sit at desks: Zero. Dreaming up more schemes, buzzwords and crap to occupy their otherwise useless lives is seen as value adding.

The problem with this thread is somewhere, in some nearly completely vacant Waterside, Coward street or Cathay Pacific City some HR zealot read this thread.

Next time a pilot has their job on the line in a recurrent simulator, their head filled with sequences, recall checklists and quiz knowledge, there will be some d*ckhead with a clipboard checking adherence to uniform standards.

[ACMS]

In Cathay Pacific (aka Cathay Pathetic Airways) uniforms for simulators was required - but then again what would you expect from a draconian outfit. I thought this was more of a Pommy thing - it´s hard to believe the Frenchies are going to implement such a concept in their training. To make it more realistic is mentioned a few times. It´s a simulator - it´s not an airplane - wearing a clown outfit won´t change that fact. It´s a training tool. You´re there for training and hopefully to learn something new or be reminded of something you forgot. Line checking is where you where your uniform, check the notams, call the weather man, ask for your tea and biscuits etc..

WHAT? In Cx I’ve never worn a Uniform to a Sim in my entire life. Sometimes I wear company pants but that’s it......The only time Cx Pilots are required to wear uniform is on a Command LOFT exercises.....and that’s only in the last 10 years.....

I don’t care what I’m wearing, I still know I’m in the Sim and if I’d need 4 stripes on my shoulder to fly a Jet then heaven help us.....

What a crock of s***

[jafar]

Sorry to say.... Pure Speedbird management horse.... t. Creeping everywhere

[slowjet]

I go with the idea that in uniform, the simulation is complete. Mate of mine flew with an outfit (pardon the pun) that demanded uniforms and even memo'd staff that "we are not a Jeans & T-shirt Company". All checked out and into the real world, they then called themselves..........Jetset............! Went along with the shell suit brigade they carried, I guess .

[Greek God]

One uses common sense. We are grown ups after all.
Sadly these days some are not!

We get paid slightly more than the minimum wage so if that's what the Company wants that's what they get! Besides in a normal civvy shirt I have no epaulettes to tuck the headset cable under!!
There are Bigger things to whinge about :O

[Old King Coal]

Never worn a uniform in any sim (or a hat in any airline... I've somehow luckily managed to dodge that one) and I also do a lot of empty aircraft positioning / ferry-flight sectors and those too are always flown in civvies. I only ever wear the uniform when pax are onboard... though it's not as if the pax even see me, i.e. flight deck visits were long since banned, pilots walking about in the cabin is frowned upon and, if / when I decide to go for a crap, a curtain is drawn so the pax can't see the flight-deck door being opened and me going in or out of the thunder closet... indeed I could be sitting in the flight-deck in the buff (all be that not a pretty sight, wherein my svelte years are long behind me) and the pax would be none the wiser... uhm, thinking of that, I do know a bloke whom has 4 stripes (in the style of epaulets) tattooed on each shoulder but that's another story.

[jmmoric]

Like I said earlier, I think you're going in for full overkill here.

The employer hires an employee, and requires the employee to wear a uniform during work hours, and pays him for it.

There's really not any more to it.

If there's some big thinking behind it, or other parts of the company doesn't wear uniforms, doesn't really matter. If the leadership is braindead or not, they still pay for those 8 hours a day.

If the employee want to change it, it can be done through normal negotiations, until then the employer has the right to decide during work hours.

Oh yeah.... and you get free clothes :)

[Jetstream67]

There appears to be one exception...

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/513x366/bransoninatie_ac8975d534bac4bede89bb0d30556925e054d329.jpg
ok fair do’s.

[pilotmike]

I'm not sure which is more worrying...
ANZ uniform worn for last 4 or 5 years.That must smell!
or...
2 of the pilots changed into pyjamas in flight.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

We mandated the wearing of uniforms when we went ATQP a few years ago. All sim trainees are expected to wear uniform. Even before that I always wore a work shirt in the sim, so that I could find my pen easily:8

[NoelEvans]

I remember about 18 years ago flying for an airline that mandated uniforms in the sim and we were in the coffee room during a break at the sim centre in the USA. It was two captains being checked together with the TRE. An American pilot walked in and jokingly shielded his eyes from the glare from the 24 gold bars that were 'dazzling' him!

An airline that I flew for a while before that only required uniforms for passenger-carrying flights. I read a delightfully entertaining article by a pilot who had arrived in a jet airliner on stand at one of London's big airports and the two of them needed to be back in the crew-room quite soon so they left the aeroplane and 'legged it' across the apron in jeans and T-shirts with only their headsets in hand (before the days of tight rules on yellow jacket and locked up aeroplanes) and he glanced up to see astounded looks from passengers looking down from the terminal having seen a jet airliner shut down on stand then two 'shady' characters run away from it! He was one of the Best of pilots too!!

[jrmyl]

When I was flying in the US I never wore a uniform to the sim. I have been in Japan the last 10 years and we have worn uniforms the entire time for sim events once we were checked to the line. I really don't mind it. Helps me simplify my packing for trips.

[SID PLATE]

Re: All of the above 61 posts ....

Operating in the sim, it could be argued, does create a more realistic and professional environment, however ...

Does it really matter ?

Nobody, apart from your sim partner, the examiner, and perhaps an observer from the regulator, sees you.

[aerobatic_dude]

If you are unable to perform in civvies then you have zero business in/around/near/within the greater vicinity of any aeroplane.

Some great responses here tho :O Some of you should consider tennis

[cessnapete]

A lot has changed in the last few years in a Big Airline and their Cargo offshoot in UK. On a night sector with a relief crew, quite a few of us often changed into track suit or 'bunk wear, when established in the cruise, before and after bunk time.
Now apparently uniform must be worn in the flight deck at all times. Quite what that rule has to do with Management, when the flight deck is off limits, and with a crew loo???

[crjo]

Well !

Thanks for all these answers.
Surely a very interesting input.
I wish more of you would have explicitly said which airlines you flew for, but I understand the choice of privacy.

@Fox niner ➝ "which management exactly?" : Head of training apparently
@dixi188 ➝ sorry to report that this is no longer the case...

Safe flights everyone.

​​​​​​​S

[Jackdaw]

In UK Regionals Manx/BRAL/Flymaybe uniform was the norm for sim. Though rightly or wrongly (not clearly defined in those days) I positioned a few empty flights in non uniform, and would advise my FO similarly. Who wants a long positioning journey afterwards (eg taxi or pax flight back to base) in uniform?

In the corporate world (Legacy) mainly non uniform in the sim. And for real flights (if we were empty) I would always dress casual. Shorts/Jean's, T shirt and sandals (not flip flops - could slip on the pedals) if the climate suited. Though always had a semblance of uniform available if plan changed (as it often did). Mid flight change into uniform and vice versa often the case, (flight attendant told not to look if she didn't want to see me in a state of undress!). EU, USA, Asia, Africa airports had no problems with crew in non uniform. UK probably frowned the most.

If only doing airline flights in uniform then maybe sim in uniform too. But if EVER flying for real in casual clothes, then should be able to fly (and sim) in whatever feels comfortable. And makes it quicker to get to the hotel bar on arrival 😀

[UAV689]

No uniform at ryr, just smart casual.

I think it helps promote a more open, relaxed culture. One in which your more likely to get candidates to be relaxed and perform better.

Besides, ryr you have to buy your own uniform and the sims are unpaid with the staff having to pay for their own hotac at the sim centers, so no uniform is the least they can do....!!

[Hudson Hawk]

Air NZ jet and regional wear uniform. Was explained as a mental mindset reason behind it all, put on the uniform, you go into work mode etc.

There was an emergency when a engine shat itself on takeoff at Wellington a few years ago and the PM reverted to using the call sign we’d always used in the SIM, the only time we really do EF. Although the pilot and company were stoked to see the training worked in practice it was decided to use random flight numbers in the sim from then on because of the way the memory recall actually created a bit of confusion with the use of one simulator call sign.

[cribble]

Up until mid-90's, the Air NZ rule was civvies, sim instructors didn't have uniforms.
At that time, the HF people (Ex-CRM) stumbled across "enclothed cognition" (Adam and Galinsky)
"Enclothed cognition" seemed to have its genesis in an third-rate social science journal (the journal didn't have a particularly big score for citing): its central theme, IIRC, was that crew-members perform better when they are dressed according to role.
I thought it BS then and while still not convinced, allow that my STEM preferences and education may be clouding my view.
Sim instructors got uniforms at about the same time.

[back to Boeing]

I’ve done both and it honestly doesn’t bother me either way. My employer wants me in uniform for the sim. Fine they’re paying my wage. My employer doesn’t mandate I wear uniform in sim. Also fine. They still pay my wage. I don’t think the wearing of uniform or not enhanced or detracts from my sim performance.

only time I get annoyed these days is if I wear a shirt that doesn’t have a pocket on the breast. What the hell did I do with my damn pen again!!

[Proline21]

Large European Businessjet operator. Initials and recurrents are done in civilian clothing...

[elmensajero]

no need to wear the uniform at Vueling for any sim sessions.

[RetiredBA/BY]

Being ex RAF where we always wore uniform,( long time ago) then into civil aviation, never could understand why civvies were worn in the sim.

Modern sims are just so superbly realistic, why not complete the job with crew wearing what they would be wearing in flight?

[Banana Joe]

European cargo carrier and we don't wear uniform for sim sessions. Technical pilots don't wear it for test flights.

​​​​​I hope it will never change.

[CaptainSAC]

I run large yachts for a UHNWI. We obviously wear uniform when him and his guest are onboard and when working on the yacht when he is not onboard. We always wear uniform when we are at sea or manoeuvring the yacht when "on duty". Whatever the time of day. If we are off duty we can hang out and go on deck in shorts and t shirts as that that is our "down time" and we can dress how we like. We wouldn't dream of wearing "civvies' whilst on duty. It shows respect for the job and the owner, that we wear uniform when performing our duties or are in a working environment. Saying that, when we are training, on courses or in the Sim, we don't have to wear it. But some do and some don't. All depends on your personal preference. I do because it puts me "in the mood" and sets me up to being in a "professional" mood. I am wearing the costume and so play the part. Will you act differently if you are dressed in T shirt and jeans vs full uniform..? Maybe..!

[Capn Bloggs]

Professional PILOTS Rumour Network!

Being in my uniform sets me up to be in a professional mood. Seriously?

[Dont Hang Up]

Professional PILOTS Rumour Network!

Being in my uniform sets me up to be in a professional mood. Seriously?

Never underestimate the influence of human factors.

Turn the argument around. Why would pilots prefer casual dress in the sim? More relaxed? More comfortable? That is already a tacit admission that one's attitude is subtly modified and thereby the realism is reduced.

Whether that matters regarding what the sim is intended to achieve is an open question, but it is generally a mistake to assume oneself immune from such influences.

[FLCH]

Realistic means I need a cup of coffee before we pushback a quick trip to the lav after 2 hours and a nap in a sleeper for 2 hours. I don’t think it matters a whit as to what clothes you wear, it’s the attitude between your ears that counts.

[viking767]

I can't think of any airline in the US that makes their crews wear uniform in the sim.

[Adverse Jaw]

When I graduated from Hamble in 1971, the guest of honour who presented our certificates was the great Dai Davies and he said in his after dinner speech that simulators should be taken seriously. In fact he proposed that all sims should be conducted in uniform, refreshment should be served by a uniformed steward and that any crashes should be followed up with an ASR!

[Stationair8]

Have seen a few pilots turn up at the Ansett sim centre, looking like they are a homeless vagabond or shop at St Vincent de Paul.

[Visual_Approach]

Air NZ we do

[level_change]

I think we should all stay true to ourselves and turn up for training to reflect the industry standards; with our pants down and walking on all fours. :O

[vilas]

When uniform is not prescribed for sim sessions people come in a wide variety of clothing which can make the atmosphere very casual. In a Simulator session a lot of play acting is involved to make it life like. Wearing uniform can be the first step because you don't fly without uniform. Then again it's up to the airline. Pilots have to be loyal to the pay check.

[AirUK]

easyJet introduced uniform for all sim events from 1st Oct 19 - professional standards was quoted as the reason as we started using our 3 new sim centres. In reality, think management had got quite frustrated that the attire some were deeming acceptable. T-shirts, ripped jeans, dirty trainers...had everyone worn smart jeans or chinos and a collared shirt, I doubt this change would have manifested itself. Instructors also now all in uniform too. Would be nice not to be in uniform but there are bigger fights to be had at present I think was the general consensus.

With the state I observe most Easyjet pilots in walking around the terminals, you’d think they think they’re always wearing their civvies anyway! (No hat, sweater instead of a jacket and a backpack slung over their shoulders... how does that convey “professional”?!).

Joking aside, I personally like to feel comfortable in the sim and thankfully our airline’s common-sense approach to this is to allow smart-casual dress for all sim sessions and training courses (we know how to act professionally even when not in uniform)! Also, I’m a grown-up and I can afford to buy/pick my outfit out from my wardrobe myself - in addition I’m also capable of using a washing machine!

It’s never seemed to affect my (or my many colleague’s) performances in the sim and I’m proud of the high standard I (and as a large airline, we) usually achieve. The day I have to blame a pilot error on the fact I’m not wearing my uniform, I think I’ll have to start looking at other careers!

I’ve enjoyed reading this thread. Merry Christmas everyone.

[Capn Bloggs]

When uniform is not prescribed for sim sessions people come in a wide variety of clothing which can make the atmosphere very casual. In a Simulator session a lot of play acting is involved to make it life like. Wearing uniform can be the first step because you don't fly without uniform. Then again it's up to the airline. Pilots have to be loyal to the pay check.
Perhaps authoritarian, steep-cockpit-gradient companies that have had CRM issues might consider loosening up their dress standards...

[aterpster]

Not mandatory in my old company, but most of us wore uniform. "on duty" and "adds realism" are two reasons perhaps, but I would also add that if I'm going to sit in a dirty seat (and let's be honest, they are), I'll do it in the company's clothes, thank you very much.
We had to buy our uniforms and shirts.

[NoelEvans]

... The day I have to blame a pilot error on the fact I’m not wearing my uniform, I think I’ll have to start looking at other careers!

Perhaps authoritarian, steep-cockpit-gradient companies that have had CRM issues might consider loosening up their dress standards...

Two very valid Posts.

I heard from a pilot in another airline that they 'wrapped up' a CRM session with this as one of the comments in the summary:
"Was there ever an incident caused by a pilot not wearing his tie? -- No!".

[jimtx]

I never saw anyone in uniform in the sim with either of my two airlines in the states. Usually everyone was in chinos and a nice shirt. But I always wore my uniform shoes. I wanted the feel of the rudder pedals to be consistent.

[Longtimer]

Curious as to "what's the big deal"
I was not a pilot but was required to be in uniform, for training, so why the outcry?

[Capn Bloggs]

I shakes me head in despair... :{

[Lord Farringdon]

I don't subscribe to the view that operating the sim in civvies, lowers performance. I sat in on a number of sim rides that our B727 crews did at United in Denver. (Even got to do to a few touch and goes which was magic stuff that would never be allowed today). It was quite normal when in a foreign city to not be wearing our military uniform and so rocking up for the sim in civvies was fine. The intensity of the sim is such that your focus is ensuring your own head space is good and that you turn out the goods in a professional manner, all the time only ever wanting to be thought of as the guy that the other guys on the squadron would be happy to fly with on a bad day. It made not one iota of difference if the guy next you was wearing his pyjamas! Like going to the dentist, the sim is a deliberately stressful place so if you can feel a bit more relaxed in civvies then I figure that's going to help not hinder.

But of course its the company's call if they want to mandate wearing of uniforms in the sim. But why would they? Air NZ's 'enclothed cognition' gives us a clue. While pitched at improving performance on the flight deck it is probably more about controlling behaviour in an otherwise non air side environment. You, know, once you slip that uniform on your standards are expected to represent company expectations...and you can be identified!! If you are wearing uniform there can be no grey area about whether you thought you were on your own time at that specific point. Given that standards of dress and behavior across society have generally slipped it's not surprising that some commercial aircrew look like they've slept in their uniforms, haven't washed or shaved, didn't bother to have a haircut so can hardly keep their hat on, shirt tails hanging out, lost their jacket somewhere and are wearing a pink jersey and that flight bag is now a ruck sack over one shoulder. Perhaps 'enclothed cognition' is long overdue for some airlines.

Sorry I can t stop there. Why the uniforms anyway? It seems that some in this thread show no pride in wearing them any way and given a choice, don't. In the the 1930's when Pan Am flew its flying boats and the first 'Clipper' names came about, dressing pilots in naval uniform with white Officers hats and navy rank, projected the image of professional seamanship more than airmanship, which was expected by passengers more familiar with boat captains than aircraft crews. The theme was picked up on and 80 years later almost every airline in the world still follows it with some even harking back to white hats. How's that working out for you Qantas guys anyway? Aviation has moved on so far from then. Airports, security and airlines are all about controlling the passenger and their expected behavior from the time they are dumped at the drop off zone until the time they depart the destination airport. I have been on flights where conveyor like processing in the windowless airports halls left me with no idea what the aircraft was that I had just boarded through the labyrinth of airport hallways, travelators and passage ways, and finally the constricted tunnels of the air bridge, let alone see the pilots encased in their castle upfront. They could have been in their jocks for all I knew..or cared.

Flying has lost it's glamour and the concept of having a 'naval officer', or 'skipper' flying our current leading edge aerospace technology seems a bit archaic and somewhat out of place. Perhaps some form of flying overalls (test pilot ish, not orange!!!) would be more appropriate for today's job, especially where interaction with passengers is only casual and occasional inside the airport? Don't get me wrong. I know there are a lot of guys and girls out there who wear their uniforms proudly and have aspired to be seen as such. They would hate to see uniforms replaced with a more purpose filled flying clothing or worse...corporate freaking tee-shirts!! Don' trust management with this...they will get it wrong! So yeah, this idea is just food for some lazy thought. But it would put paid to flip flops in the sim which one of our flight engineers was want to do. Then again, he wasn't pressing any pedals :).

[ShyTorque]

Being ex RAF where we always wore uniform,( long time ago) then into civil aviation, never could understand why civvies were worn in the sim.

Modern sims are just so superbly realistic, why not complete the job with crew wearing what they would be wearing in flight?

I take it you wore blue uniform in the cockpit? We RAF SH pilots would have looked silly flying a sim in full cold weather kit or an immersion suit! We wore smart civvies instead.

We also convinced some first timers to wear shower caps, but that’s another story!

[TheEdge]

Perhaps some form of flying overalls (test pilot ish, not orange!!!) would be more appropriate for today's job, especially where interaction with passengers is only casual and occasional inside the airport?

I dont mind the Uniform at all, but...i have always thought that would prefer to wear a fit-for-purpose flying overall (especially good shoes) if i could. More efficient, especially if walking/operating in harsh environment conditions (intense cold, icing and alike).

[sonicbum]

I find wearing uniform in the sim also quite useful when carrying out video debriefing to the crew. As we know, a picture worth a thousand words, and playing a short video debrief on what was done particularly well and what could have perhaps be done differently can be very useful.

[Banana Joe]

How is wearing a uniform influencing an action or a general performance in the sim? I don't get it.

[RetiredBA/BY]

I take it you wore blue uniform in the cockpit? We RAF SH pilots would have looked silly flying a sim in full cold weather kit or an immersion suit! We wore smart civvies instead.

We also convinced some first timers to wear shower caps, but that’s another story!
No, not battle dress blues, just flying suits, a form of uniform. .

Yes you would look silly wearing an immersion suit, been there, done that, though not in a sim. A standard flying overall would seem reasonable, though.

[KG86]

ShyTorque/RetiredBA/BY,

Today's SH crews in the sims wear flying suits, gloves, helmets and (when night training) NVG, at the very least. They occasionally wear Load Carrying Jerkins, NBC hoods (whistling handbag) and, very occasionally, weapons..

[buttonpusher]

In our Middle East airline, we wear uniform simply because the locals can't wear their traditional clothing (I.e. thobe) because of the negative G strap on the harness.

And those of you who don't think you need to wear uniform onboard, consider what the military pilot will think seeing two guys dressed in black t-shirts in the cockpit when they intercept an airliner which is out of radio contact.......

[Capn Bloggs]

I find wearing uniform in the sim also quite useful when carrying out video debriefing to the crew. As we know, a picture worth a thousand words, and playing a short video debrief on what was done particularly well and what could have perhaps be done differently can be very useful.
How so? So you can identify who's in what seat after a game of musical chairs? Surely the pilots can be identified by their ears, nose, voice...

[Rated De]

I think we should all stay true to ourselves and turn up for training to reflect the industry standards; with our pants down and walking on all fours. :O

And for a dose of realism to up the standard a bit more, why don't they throw in some "pilot chow"

After all it is a simulator, so feeding some slop to pilots ought deliver peak performance too.

[what next]

And those of you who don't think you need to wear uniform onboard, consider what the military pilot will think seeing two guys dressed in black t-shirts in the cockpit when they intercept an airliner which is out of radio contact.......

All airliners shot down by military interceptors to this date were flown by pilots in uniform. Not wearing a black shirt obviously does not help in these cases...

[hans brinker]

Pretty much the only reasons I would prefer the uniform:
Same shoes for pedal feel.
Shirt pocket for pen.

Really feel the " need to be dressed up to be a pilot " is a bit much, and I did my whole primary flight training in uniform.

[EIFFS]

Interesting comments and views on this!! I spend my time on the IOS and don't really see much difference in performance between uniform and non uniform, having said that when looking at soft skills such as attitude it seems the scruffier the individual the more sloppy their overall performance and thus if not in uniform you get a huge variety in what they deem to be acceptable

[heavylanding]

I have many friends at AF .
I asked them about this thread.
none of them heard about wearing uniforms at sim .

[MapleQ400]

Never had to wear a uniform in the SIM during my last 28 years, neither as pilot nor as instructor. But why bother? If they want you to wear uniform, wear uniform.... We wear uniform during 300 days a year, so why think about the 4 additional one's.

[goeasy]

I would rather keep my clothes for my business, not the company's. Many sim centres like uniforms for security reasons which makes sense in this day n age

[Capn Bloggs]

Many sim centres like uniforms for security reasons which makes sense in this day n age
Precisely why you wouldn't demand uniforms. If your security is dependent on what people dress in/look like, you have a major problem.

[hunterboy]

It strikes me that from a company point of view, they may want to project an image of professionalism in their corporate image, hence pilots wearing uniforms when they go to work, whether in the flight deck of an airliner, or a simulator.
Sim centers may have other corporate visitors, and I guess it could be argued that having pilots wandering around in casual clothing may not project the image/illusion that an airline may be looking for. Speaking as an old fuddy duddy in their early 50’s, and passing on what I see down route in hotels and business lounges, it may not be a bad idea. Some younger pilots views of smart casual may not align with an employers or hotels view of smart casual. In which case, why not stipulate a pair of dark trousers, white shirt and a tie to be worn when on company premises and on duty? When on the companies dime, I guess they can tell you what to wear.

[Sholayo]

"Flying has lost it's glamour and the concept of having a 'naval officer', or 'skipper' flying our current leading edge aerospace technology seems a bit archaic and somewhat out of place."

Well in many countries train drivers or even bus drivers wear uniforms.
There's nothing archaic in in IMO.

Cheers,
Andrzej

[redsnail]

Large fractional operations. We do not wear uniforms in the sim. Some pilots do, but that is their own choice. Our American branch of the company do not wear uniforms. Note, there is a dress standard which we're expected to maintain. I too, prefer my work shoes for the sim, same reasons as given above.
Many of us travel to the US for our sim training so carrying the uniform as well as civvy clothes is a pain. (Our training usually lasts 4-5 days).
Our time slots are interesting and so being able to head out of the sim and go to a restaurant for lunch is great.

[Fbwdude]

Flag carrier in Brazil and I have never worn uniform in the sim.
I like it that way.
Safe flights to you all.

[PoppaJo]

I wear it as it’s purely my comfort zone. Prior to Aviation I was in another industry for 15 years, that was a uniform also, strict uniform procedure I must say. I have never worn casual to work in my life since I finished Year 12, in or previous to my flying career. It would probably be a distraction if I wore casual if I did , which is why I don’t, sim time is hardly time for that.

I dont wear wear the tie, but that’s barely worn on the line at all these days by many.

All the young ones roll up in ripped jeans etc.

[Capn Bloggs]

I dont wear wear the tie, but that’s barely worn on the line at all these days by many.
Whaaattt!!??? No hat either, I suppose! :{

[NoelEvans]

Some interesting comments here. I have flown for several airlines (lifestyle has always trumped 'loyalty'!) with differing ideas on uniforms in the sim: three that were non-uniform, one that insisted on uniform, one that went from uniform to non-uniform and one that went non-uniform to uniform. I have never seen uniform make the slightest difference to any other pilot's performance. The 'sloppiest' dressed that I have ever seen anyone in the sim were the trainers when that airline went uniform to non-uniform, yet they were respected by all the pilots because they were good trainers (which they were) not because of anything that they wore. I have seen good and bad trainers in both uniform and non-uniform sims, but the worst were in uniform sims and the best were in non-uniform sims.

As for any argument about 'realism' in the sim, any non-normal situations that I have had to deal with in the real world have all been far more relaxed than in the sim giving more time to focus on the situation rather than what "she/he in the back" wants to see. With one situation over two decades ago we even had a brief joke before starting our approach, glancing back to the area behind the captain's seat where the trainer would be sitting in a sim "OK you can reset it all now"! What clothes we had been wearing at the time would have had no influence on the conduct of the situations nor the outcome.

"Was there ever an incident caused by a pilot not wearing his tie? -- No!".

[Check Airman]

I wear it as it’s purely my comfort zone. Prior to Aviation I was in another industry for 15 years, that was a uniform also, strict uniform procedure I must say. I have never worn casual to work in my life since I finished Year 12, in or previous to my flying career. It would probably be a distraction if I wore casual if I did , which is why I don’t, sim time is hardly time for that.

I dont wear wear the tie, but that’s barely worn on the line at all these days by many.

All the young ones roll up in ripped jeans etc.

Funny you mention ties on the line. I keep my tie on all day long. Doesn’t bother me.

On the other hand, I’d happily show up to the sim in jeans and a t-shirt if they said I could. It’s just a box.

[fisher22]

Wearing an uniform in the sim to make it more realistic? Come on, and do you start calling the examiner Sheila and ask him to get you some coffee? Do you also spread cookie crumbs over the pedestal for added immersion? Do you stand outside the box after the session is over to wave imaginary passengers off?

Just plain ridiculous, it's a SIMULATOR, it's not and never will be the real aircraft!

And no, we don't wear it at my company LOL

[Too Few Stripes]

I’m amazed this has amassed so many responses. Company want uniform - wear it, company don’t care - don’t wear it. It’s a working day, the company decide the rules for whatever reason they like, I have worked for airlines that have worn it and others that don’t - it makes no difference to me either way ......

[phil@LFPG]

Hello all,

I’ve been with Air France for the last 20+ years.
We’ve always done our recurrent sim training as well as type ratings in “civilian” clothing.
Management has just advised us that, starting next year, we’ll have to be in uniform for all sim sessions.

i just wanted to get the lay of the land out there. If you could reply with the name of your Airline and wether being in Uniform is mandatory for sims, I would be very grateful.

maybe it changed. UTA was already casual and the sims at CDG did not have that approach, Air Inter was less and Air France was in the middle for Vilgenis so i imagine an Ex Air Inter is taking it too seriously ...

but if it makes the training more efficient why not.

[dweeks]

Gigantic major US and Intl carrier based somewhere in a big city in Texas...

Business casual dress for all training events, including simulator.

[Longtimer]

I must repeat: if the folks who pay your wages say, uniforms then so it will be , if they don't care, then casual it is. What amazes me, old guy I guess, is that what the employer wants/dictates evidently is not pertinent. So I guess the only solution is for those who refuse to wear uniforms (if that is what the company wants) to quit!

[Qwark]

Large European LCC. Business casual.

[Fog Ducker]

For my first 33 years of airline flying, we always appeared for classroom training or simulator sessions in civvies. Not T-shirts and flip-flops, but nice "business casual" dress.

For my FINAL 3 years of airline flying in the Middle East with QR, we always had to wear the uniform but were allowed to leave the jacket and hat at home. The instructors wore uniforms as well.

At first, I thought that this was really weird. But eventually, I came to like it. I always knew immediately, or as soon as we hit the briefing room if my sim partner was also a captain, or an F/O. It saved sometimes awkward questions if the dude appeared to be out of the normal age bracket for the seat that he occupied. We even wore seat belts and headsets. But the best thing?.... I always knew where to reach for my pen.

[Longtimer]

'this is the longest and dumbest topic on PPRUNE. Who gives a damn if uniforms should or should not be worn in a simiulator, that is surely up to the employer unless so covered in the collective agreement. End of topic I hope!

[act700]

Uniforms are for Unicorns

[fab777]

Being ex RAF where we always wore uniform,( long time ago) then into civil aviation, never could understand why civvies were worn in the sim.


Maybe for that very simple reason that you were in the military, and we are civilians?

[RetiredBA/BY]

By uniform I meant flying suits, not no 1s or 2 blues. !! In other words we wore the clothing in the sim we would be wearing in the jet !

[hans brinker]

By uniform I meant flying suits, not no 1s or 2 blues. !! In other words we wore the clothing in the sim we would be wearing in the jet !

So you are suggesting cargo pilots do their SIM in their pajamas?

[david1300]

So you are suggesting cargo pilots do their SIM in their pajamas?
Some replies show that not all are among the smartest around

[Capn Bloggs]

And some replies indicate that not all have a sense of humour (and an Ozzie to boot...shakes me hed in shame)!

[misd-agin]

By uniform I meant flying suits, not no 1s or 2 blues. !! In other words we wore the clothing in the sim we would be wearing in the jet !


So VIP military crews should show up in suits? Or dress uniform? Long sleeves?

[Spooky 2]

As a matter of fact the last time I saw a crew from the 89th they were in their USAF uniforms. Not sure what your definition of a VIP military crew is, but I would imagine this would be close to the top end of the graph.

[misd-agin]

As a matter of fact the last time I saw a crew from the 89th they were in their USAF uniforms. Not sure what your definition of a VIP military crew is, but I would imagine this would be close to the top end of the graph.

The last time I saw military guys doing sim training at a civilian facility they were in civilian clothes. But they certainly flew in their military uniforms.

Were they doing sim training when you saw the 89th guys? Were they wearing ties?

[bringbackthe80s]

Can’t believe this thread actually exists

[Mk 1]

Can’t believe this thread actually exists
Or that there have been 135 posts over weeks. Talk about #firstworldproblems...

[Spooky 2]

The last time I saw military guys doing sim training at a civilian facility they were in civilian clothes. But they certainly flew in their military uniforms.

Were they doing sim training when you saw the 89th guys? Were they wearing ties?

Boeing Seattle and Pan Am in MIA, Don't recall the the tie config, but have never see 89th crew in cvies while in training or even in the building for that mater. I suppose this would depend on how the CO wanted this to be. Agree this is a funny post, but those who have commented as such, you can just ignore it and move on....