Annoying habits

[PilotViking]

What are the most annoying things for you air traffic controllers that we pilots do thats annoying , unnecessary or just plain stupid?

[chevvron]

Identing without us requesting it.
Serves no useful purpose as we have to observe your response to our request for ident.

[Juggler25]

What are the most annoying things for you air traffic controllers that we pilots do thats annoying , unnecessary or just plain stupid?

<Rant>
Ignoring speed instructions (happens way more frequently then it should).
Lying about ignoring speed instructions. We have Mode S so can see what you're doing. If you can't make a descent restriction work with an assigned speed just tell me and I'll change the plan.
Announcing on the RT that you're logged on to CPDLC. Doing so literally defeats the point of the system.
Telling me that you've started descent.
</Rant>

:}

[Del Prado]

Rushing to check in on freq. I sometimes can’t even correct a wrong read back before someone else is jumping in. Your first call is usually not that urgent (but if it is we will call you.)

First call to Director: long transmissions giving speed, QNH, next point or name of STAR, etc. Regardless of what you’re supposed to say the only things we need are aircraft type and cleared level.
We can see your speed on radar and strips, a fresh QNH will be given on first descent to an altitude.
Each extra item on first call increases the length of the transmission exponentially and there’s nothing worse than watching an aircraft fly through the localiser or turn outbound in the hold because the frequency is blocked with someone saying “and the err..um...QNH is....um....I’ve got it here...somewhere....”

Asking for climb/descent/WX avoidance when it’s self evident from TCAS or �� there’s another aircraft RIGHT THERE.


Thanks for asking PilotViking!

[SThor]

“Control, ABC123, request” (Makes me reach for pen and paper preparing for what must surely be an extremely out of the ordinary request!)
”ABC123, control, go ahead (pen in hand)”
“ABC123 request 1000’ up or down” (thinking why didn’t they just say that in the first transmission).

”ABC123, standby” (I might have to check with the next sector or unit if you’re requesting something or I’m on the phone and intend to call you back)
”Standing by, ABC123” (seriously!?!) :ugh:

Also; “standing by for descent/lower”, “request FXXX if available” :)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Reminds me of a late colleague at Heathrow. Told by GMC to listen on 118.5 (Tower) a pilot came on the tower freq with: "XXX listening on 118.5". My colleague said "So am I, but I'm being quiet about it!"

[Talkdownman]

From my experience, here's a few to be going on with:

Protracted initial calls, e.g. passing full flight details (and / or irrelevant info) on first transmission on a Freecall.
Failing to standby when asked.
Uncommanded IDENT.
Non-compliance with speed control. Not telling the truth when asked to confirm flying assigned speed.
Transmitting when asked to monitor, e.g. "Monitor (agency) on (channel)"..."Hi (Agency), this is (callsign) monitoring / listening out / standing by on your frequency"
Transmitting more than required when asked to check-in 'callsign only'..."Hi Director (callsign) with you, out of blah blah, descending blah blah, QNH blah blah, coming back to blah blah, field in sight, requesting visual, any chance of the Left.." etc
Not making any reasonable attempt to minimise use of runway, e.g. rolling to the end at taxy speed.

[spekesoftly]

Early 1980s, Gatwick Tower to a BCAL DC10 pilot - "Vacate Right before Surrey".
Pilot's reply - "I've paid for the full length, so I'm using it"

[zonoma]

"I know we've only filed FL230 today but if you can let the French know we're after FL410........" :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Converting from a Mach to IAS below FL270, having been told "convert to 250kts" and still accelerating to 325kts and then saying "we're still on a Mach". Thanks.

[PilotViking]

out of curiosity, how much extra work does it cause when we ask for shortcuts that takes us outside controlled airspace? i.e deconfliction service etc

Thanks for the replies!

[chevvron]

out of curiosity, how much extra work does it cause when we ask for shortcuts that takes us outside controlled airspace? i.e deconfliction service etc

Thanks for the replies!
'Leaving controlled airspace; terminating radar service; freecall Farnborough Radar on xxx.xxx'.https://www.pprune.org/images/icons/46.gif

[kontrolor]

<Rant>

Ignoring speed instructions (happens way more frequently then it should).
Lying about ignoring speed instructions. We have Mode S so can see what you're doing. If you can't make a descent restriction work with an assigned speed just tell me and I'll change the plan.
Announcing on the RT that you're logged on to CPDLC. Doing so literally defeats the point of the system.
Telling me that you've started descent.

</Rant>

:}

all of above plus chit-chating on 121.5

[jmmoric]

Landing and slowing down to taxispeed, and still expecting to vacate at the exit at the runway end when the frequency is busy, yes, I will throw you off at the first exit if needed, even if it's the wrong side and you'll have to cross again later :)

And the initial call before making a request.... as SThor mentioned.

Not understanding the difference between a visual approach and VFR (that's not really annoying, just mildly surprising).

Over the years you'll get used to pilots being "morning lazy" and not paying attention, so when traffic picks up you'll end up with the 4 or 5 instructions you'll have to repeat until everyone seems to wake up... That's not really annoying, just part of the job, and I don't mind it :)

[Brian 48nav]

Having been given line-up clearance and once established on the runway stating your intention to take 3minutes or more behind the departing heavy. You can of course take as long as you like - but let the ATCO know before lining up and they will find someone, if they can, to go ahead of you. Certainly was the case at LL/LHR.

[Level bust]

When an a/c wanted to transit the zone and asked if he was VFR, I lost count of the number of times they replied with Roger! More than once I was tempted to say is that roger yes or roger no!

[AerocatS2A]

<Rant>

Ignoring speed instructions (happens way more frequently then it should).
Lying about ignoring speed instructions. We have Mode S so can see what you're doing. If you can't make a descent restriction work with an assigned speed just tell me and I'll change the plan.
Announcing on the RT that you're logged on to CPDLC. Doing so literally defeats the point of the system.
Telling me that you've started descent.

</Rant>

:}

4. is a requirement in Australia (why? I don't know), so not surprising that some pilots do it elsewhere.

[1985]

Switching to a new frequency and then starting to talk a millisecond later. Listen out first please!


​​

[rolaaand]

out of curiosity, how much extra work does it cause when we ask for shortcuts that takes us outside controlled airspace? i.e deconfliction service etc

Thanks for the replies!

It can cause a lot, coordination with other sectors/airfields to accept the route and provide the service. Plus these requests are usually made with an “if it helps” can we take a dc and go direct. It rarely helps, it is taking you from a known traffic environment into an unknown one. The workload on us increases and I suspect that a lot of the commercial pilots who ask for these services don’t have a clue what their responsibilities are outside CAS or how they drop way down the controller’s priorities when they choose to do this. Pilot’s even accepting to route through intense gliding areas in their big passenger jets to save a couple of minutes. It’s all fun and games until the collision.

Other daily ball aches?

1-Uncommanded ident.
2-Not only ignoring speed control instructions but flat out lying when challenged and getting pissy about it too. At least daily this occurs.
3-Reading back by voice an instruction sent by CPDLC 🤷🏻*♂️
4-Repeated requests for something when a good reason has been given for refusal, eg direct when it would take you through an active danger area. I don’t refuse direct routes for no reason.
5-Being given a when ready clearance to be level by a point and then missing it, sometimes by many thousands of feet. Causes coordination and sometimes separation issues.
6-The never ending turbulence chat from the Americans on a bumpy day. It was forecast, I’ve told you there’s no smooth levels, stop cluttering up my frequency with your light chop banter.
7-“What’s the traffic ahead of us?” It doesn’t matter, I’ve slowed you down because it is busy. I’m well aware your Airbus can do 340kts, it can also do 250, quit moaning.
8-Asking the reason for the delay when the frequency is congested with arrivals and I’m sending everything to the hold. It’s not because I like making pretty patterns on the radar.

aaaand relax.

That was quite therapeutic.

Generally though, pilots are a pretty sound and professional bunch and the overwhelming majority are excellent in their interactions with atc. A handful of roasters wind us up, but that’s probably a two way street.

[Juggler25]

4. is a requirement in Australia (why? I don't know), so not surprising that some pilots do it elsewhere.

Yeah in this part of the world it tends to be the Swiss and Italians that do it the most so am guessing it's a requirement there as well.

"I know we've only filed FL230 today but if you can let the French know we're after FL410........"

"Yes of course I'll let the French know" - Turns to colleague and carrys on conversation about last nights Game of Thrones.... :}

Generally though, pilots are a pretty sound and professional bunch and the overwhelming majority are excellent in their interactions with atc. A handful of roasters wind us up, but that’s probably a two way street.

Spot on.

[terrain safe]

Not listening at all, especially when really busy and the aircraft is number 1 at the hold, or at a 2 mile final and they are called with no answer. Today 1 aircraft was called 3 times before answering when inside 2 miles from touchdown. Surely you must be expecting a call!!
Not listening on the GMC frequency so increasing the workload. I know you have lots to do for your quick turn around, but if you listen you might get there quicker.
Stop sniffing at a runway high speed exit and then slowly taxying to the next exit. Not only anoyying and delaying everything but also might mean another aircraft has to go around due to you wandering down the runway. Get off the runway asap!!
Stopping on the runway and then turning really slowly down the high speed exit. Just be glad we don't have live microphones!
Calling on GMC that you are approaching where you have been told to hold. I know you are, but there is something either in your way, or about to be, so stop wasting RT time.
Asking to roll to the end as it's easier for you when you can see about 10 aircraft at the holding point witing to depert. As one pilot said on the RT recently when this very request was made by a company aircraft "numpty".

Most pilots are fine and get there and help us out, but the ones who don't......

[Uplinker]

I for one try to use standard RT phrases, and try not to get into bad habits. I have been on a full TRUCE day and I make the effort to visit the tower at airports I am based at. My Dad was an ATCO at West Drayton, and he said it was sometimes difficult to “wake up” eastbound transatlantic pilots, inbound to the UK.

I don’t like it either when pilots ask for directs, (except to avoid weather).

Missing runway exits has been mentioned a couple of times: We obviously plan on taking a certain exit and adjust the autobrake accordingly. However, most Airbus have only low and medium settings, (Max is only used for RTO). We apply manual brakes to exit but it sh1ts the passengers up if we stand on the brakes and is very uncomfortable. We have strict company max speeds to take exits - even high speed exits, so if we are too fast, we have to go on to the next exit. By then of course, we are moving quite slowly.........we don’t like missing an exit either !

It would be helpful if the distances from the touch down point to each exit were written on the plate. Some newer aircraft have automatic brake to vacate at a specified exit.

Sometimes, even with the best of intentions, we float a little, which eats up our stopping distance. None of us are perfect :)
.

[chevvron]

Pilots who slow right down after landing and 'assume' they'll be cleared for backtrack when there's further landing traffic on short final.
If I had time, before landing I would say 'after landing vacate first convenient left/right' (NB I never used to tell them which exit to use in case they braked sharply to make it and burst a tyre and yes I have seen it happen)

[mike current]

Not listening at all, especially when really busy and the aircraft is number 1 at the hold, or at a 2 mile final and they are called with no answer. Today 1 aircraft was called 3 times before answering when inside 2 miles from touchdown. Surely you must be expecting a call!!
Not listening on the GMC frequency so increasing the workload. I know you have lots to do for your quick turn around, but if you listen you might get there quicker.
Stop sniffing at a runway high speed exit and then slowly taxying to the next exit. Not only anoyying and delaying everything but also might mean another aircraft has to go around due to you wandering down the runway. Get off the runway asap!!
Stopping on the runway and then turning really slowly down the high speed exit. Just be glad we don't have live microphones!
Calling on GMC that you are approaching where you have been told to hold. I know you are, but there is something either in your way, or about to be, so stop wasting RT time.
Asking to roll to the end as it's easier for you when you can see about 10 aircraft at the holding point witing to depert. As one pilot said on the RT recently when this very request was made by a company aircraft "numpty".

Most pilots are fine and get there and help us out, but the ones who don't......

I don't think that attitude helps getting pilots on board and being helpful.

[EI_DVM]

Calling on GMC that you are approaching where you have been told to hold. I know you are, but there is something either in your way, or about to be, so stop wasting RT time.


Just to present the pilot point of view on this one, I take umbrage with this particular piece of advice, the airports I fly into you're cleared to the next point where a potential conflict could arise and 50% of the time if you haven't either been cleared further or informed of the reason for the intermediate hold as you approach said point, we'd come to a stop and wait for a minute or two, only to be then told to continue on to the next point. While I acknowledge some ATCOs are sharper than others we fly with the full mix, we can tell when our presence has surprised you vs when there are specific reasons for our holding position.

If you'd like us not to ask and the frequency isn't too busy, passing the reason why we're stopping at a certain point (traffic crossing, with a slot etc) while clearing us there could avoid unnecessary RT prompts.

Particularly in a heavy it takes a lot of thrust and fuel to get moving again, and can have a noticable impact on brake temps that could all have been avoided by a prompt for further clearance approaching a holding point that would have allowed us to keep it on a roll.

[Uplinker]

Brake temps and breakaway thrust can be an occasional issue, but it’s rare. I don’t like the impatient; “tell him we’re approaching the hold” or “tell him the stop bar is still on”. Patience is a virtue.

ATC are doing lots of things at once, and they know where you are going to stop. When they get a second from making phone calls and watching other traffic, they will get to us.

There will always be a reason that you are told to hold anywhere - if there wasn’t, you wouldn’t be told to hold !! :)

[FlightDetent]

Surprised the IDENTs not asked for get such high grades. Do they occur that frequently, or is the annoyance so extreme - what is it that happens once you get one?

[chevvron]

Surprised the IDENTs not asked for get such high grades. Do they occur that frequently, or is the annoyance so extreme - what is it that happens once you get one?
Uncommanded idents serve no useful purpose; the ident can only be used by a controller to identify you when that controller observes you responding to their request for ident.

[FlightDetent]

Copy that if you needed one, it must be requested first as you shall observe it in response.

My curiosity still stands, why it gets such high marks here. I would expect definitely
- not keeping or lying about speed adherence,
- fake WX avoidance call for shortcuts,
- deadwood "request if available" / superfluous readbacks
- wishful CTOT (+10) keeping
- known delays or unable-to that are only communicated once the damage is being done (level restrictions, line-ups)

Never imagined IDENTs could be a thing, though they are seldom used in our ops corner.

[FZRA]

What an interesting thread....and hopefully a chance to ask some honest questions that quite often crop up on the line.

- Re. speed control. How rapidly are you expecting us to decelerate? The aircraft I fly is USELESS at slowing down with any greater than 1500ft/min VS, even with max spoilers. Quite often the only way to decelerate is to "dive down" to the next assigned level then rely on the speed coming back once level. Or kill the VS to <500ft/min to get rid of energy, then increase the VS again. I presume that you see our actual IAS on Mode-S, as opposed to selected IAS?

- "Descend when ready" - if we've then given it a few minutes in level flight, some of my colleagues like to chip in with "ABC123, commencing descent now". Personally I think it's an un-necessary call, but their argument is that it may help your situational awareness if you'd forgotten about us?

- "Standing by for further climb/descent" - not pointing fingers here, but in some countries it's quite common to be left way above descent profile, with radio silence; it seems the only way to spring ATC back to life is with a little nudge. Cue the sudden "Roger, descend 3000ft, Direct XYZ, cleared for the approach" whilst still at FL100 and 20 miles from the field. Are you suggesting that if we've not been called there's a good reason to just stay quiet and wait for the next clearance?

- "Request FLXXX for the cruise, if available" - our company likes us at FL410-450 most of the time. But quite often it's planned below that due to airspace/capping restrictions or whatever. Is it fair to ask for a higher level, or is that a massive addition to controller workload? Some colleagues argue that having us "up there" keeps us out of your way, but I'm not convinced it's that simple.

- "Expedite climb" - we can often do 5-6000ft/min VS when asked to. Is that acceptable for you, or is there another more sensible number that you're expecting?

Just to chip in a little about runway exits, as a couple of others have alluded to. It can be quite difficult to judge the amount of braking required for a timely exit, especially as our exact touchdown point/GS can vary. We're always aiming for the preferred exit, but then our company data monitoring has very strict rules on exit speeds....sometimes we're stuck between having to leave it to the next exit and annoy ATC, or take the exit above SOP speed and face an internal report :confused:

One pet hate, never an issue in the UK but in plenty of other countries, is instructions the moment our wheels have touched down. "ABC123, exit Delta, right on Mike, ground on 123.4" whilst we're still at 100 knots. The roll-out can be quite high workload, ensuring that spoilers/reverse have deployed and that the aircraft is tracking the centreline/decelerating as required. If you need us off at a particular exit, please tell us on final!

[Oubi]

"ADBxxx Request 5 minutes on the runway"

[AerocatS2A]

FZRA, I think the gripe with "Request FLXXX, if available" is that the "if available" bit is completely useless. If it's not available, they won't give it to you, you don't have to make the request conditional on the availability of the requested level.

[terrain safe]

OK. Quick response re runway exits. All I want is you off the runway. 1st or 2nd exit, I don't care, what is important is the TIME you are on the runway. We set up arrival gaps to give us enough time to either continually land aircraft or land and then depart an aircraft before the next lander. In other word we us a physical gap distance to give us time. Now I understand that you some times float etc and that's fine just don't stop and then slowly taxy the 400m to the next exit. The system can't cope with that, so we then send then next arrival around, either with an aircraft lined up or not, but we have lost a gap, maybe 2. This is critical in a High intensity operation. It takes 3 to 4 minutes before either the next lander or arrival. This then pushes everyone back by this time. So an aircraft at the holding point with a couple in front, who was going to be airborne in the slot time, will now miss the slot and may get a huge delay etc. So you see it's not just one or two aircraft who are affected it can be many. This is why I have grey hair (but I still have my hair!!).

[The Fat Controller]

out of curiosity, how much extra work does it cause when we ask for shortcuts that takes us outside controlled airspace? i.e deconfliction service etc

Thanks for the replies!

From a retired Scottish Control ATCO and I believe this is still the attitude.

From very little to too much !

If you asked ME and it was entirely in my sector, almost an instant decision PROVIDED that the airfield you were landing at could agree to the route and service.

If it involved more sectors, more calls, and more agreement from ALL involved, a bit of a pain actually.

One controller could be quiet but the next could already have a handful several already on DS and not be able to take more.

Quite a few who request directs and DS have absolutely no concept of what is actually happening below FL250, have not bothered to read any NOTAMs regarding military exercises or Danger Areas (because they plan in CAS) and do not know of the existence of TRAs and the freedom this gives the military.

I think the answer is, feel free to ask but don't expect an instant decision and realise a refusal will be for a very good reason, to keep you SAFE.

[HershamBoys]

''Got him on TCAS'' when passed TI in Class 'D'. Totally pointless. Tell me when you can see it, and then I can relax my separation / segregation and let you get on with integrating yourself.

[Juggler25]

My two cents for you FZRA...



- Re. speed control. How rapidly are you expecting us to decelerate? The aircraft I fly is USELESS at slowing down with any greater than 1500ft/min VS, even with max spoilers. Quite often the only way to decelerate is to "dive down" to the next assigned level then rely on the speed coming back once level. Or kill the VS to <500ft/min to get rid of energy, then increase the VS again. I presume that you see our actual IAS on Mode-S, as opposed to selected IAS?


There are two problems. One is when a conversion speed is given with a when ready descent clearance. So often aircraft will carry on at the cruising level for ~20 miles before descending then go way faster than the restriction given. When questioned we're told 'well we needed to speed up to make the level restriction'. So why not descend earlier when the descent clearance was given?
The other problem is communication. It's impossible for us to know all the intricacies of each aircraft type/current weather conditions and how well they can slow down so it's difficult for us to always know if a speed and level restriction is difficult for you to achieve. So if a restriction isn't compliable then say so! If we know you can't do something we can figure another plan out and carry on. I believe a lot of pilots still think that speed restrictions are just to absorb delays and so if they're ignored it doesn't matter. They're not, they're a form of separation the same as a level or heading. I'm pretty sure you don't want to plough into the aircraft ahead of have to deal with a TCAS RA?


- "Descend when ready" - if we've then given it a few minutes in level flight, some of my colleagues like to chip in with "ABC123, commencing descent now". Personally I think it's an un-necessary call, but their argument is that it may help your situational awareness if you'd forgotten about us?


I can only speak for within the UK but most of our sectors are small enough that we're watching you closely constantly so will know exactly when you've started descending and don't need the reminder. To be honest this is not a massive problem unless it blocks the frequency.


- "Standing by for further climb/descent" - not pointing fingers here, but in some countries it's quite common to be left way above descent profile, with radio silence; it seems the only way to spring ATC back to life is with a little nudge. Cue the sudden "Roger, descend 3000ft, Direct XYZ, cleared for the approach" whilst still at FL100 and 20 miles from the field. Are you suggesting that if we've not been called there's a good reason to just stay quiet and wait for the next clearance?


If it's quiet and you've levelled off for a bit then this is fair game. But it's when the RT is very busy and you keep getting blocked by pilots who are still 2-3000ft from levelling off bugging you for further climb/descent that's the real irritant. We'll get to you when we can, we don't let you level off just for the sake of it.


- "Request FLXXX for the cruise, if available" - our company likes us at FL410-450 most of the time. But quite often it's planned below that due to airspace/capping restrictions or whatever. Is it fair to ask for a higher level, or is that a massive addition to controller workload? Some colleagues argue that having us "up there" keeps us out of your way, but I'm not convinced it's that simple.


We're not permitted to climb you above your filed level when going to adjacent countries. Restrictions are there to keep controller workload manageable and therefore the aircraft safe. It's an annoyance I know but the crux of it is there's too many aircraft for not enough airspace!


- "Expedite climb" - we can often do 5-6000ft/min VS when asked to. Is that acceptable for you, or is there another more sensible number that you're expecting?


If you're given an expedite then the best rate possible is appreciated. It's usually given because we've gone for a dodgy climb through and so probably in your interest to climb like the clappers! ;)


Just to chip in a little about runway exits, as a couple of others have alluded to. It can be quite difficult to judge the amount of braking required for a timely exit, especially as our exact touchdown point/GS can vary. We're always aiming for the preferred exit, but then our company data monitoring has very strict rules on exit speeds....sometimes we're stuck between having to leave it to the next exit and annoy ATC, or take the exit above SOP speed and face an internal report :confused:


Never been up a tower so couldn't care less!! :} ;) :}

[rodan]

I would expect definitely
- not keeping or lying about speed adherence,
Yes. When we ask “Report your speed?” with a quizzical tone, we already know they’re going too fast, we’re just letting them know we know. Caveat - If the explanation is a hefty tailwind, it’s very helpful to be told.

- fake WX avoidance call for shortcuts,
Yes. The amount of weather avoidance requests (from particular airlines) that coincidentally go direct to 10nm final...

- wishful CTOT (+10) keeping
Yup. “But we can be airborne in 10 minutes” - maybe, if there were no other aircraft landing or departing - that’s what the -5+10 is for. Please, manage your FPL, and delay early for the best outcome. That applies to EOBT +\-15 as well. Appreciate that some ATC colleagues don’t help this issue by fudging CTOTs, it makes those of us who play the game seem inflexible.

My personal bugbear:
Any heading instruction for an arrival that doesn’t reduce track mileage getting “ABC123, can we self-position?” in reply. (Again - particular airlines).

[Tom!]

From a retired Scottish Control ATCO and I believe this is still the attitude.

From very little to too much !

If you asked ME and it was entirely in my sector, almost an instant decision PROVIDED that the airfield you were landing at could agree to the route and service.

If it involved more sectors, more calls, and more agreement from ALL involved, a bit of a pain actually.

One controller could be quiet but the next could already have a handful several already on DS and not be able to take more.

Quite a few who request directs and DS have absolutely no concept of what is actually happening below FL250, have not bothered to read any NOTAMs regarding military exercises or Danger Areas (because they plan in CAS) and do not know of the existence of TRAs and the freedom this gives the military.

I think the answer is, feel free to ask but don't expect an instant decision and realise a refusal will be for a very good reason, to keep you SAFE.

Guilty as charged :}
SAB direct EDI 24 instead of routing via AGPED.

Do appreciate the service and coordination it requires as it saves a lot of time for us (provided no glider activity as then I always stick to CAS NATEB/AGPED/HAVEN)

[mike current]

Guilty as charged :}
SAB direct EDI 24 instead of routing via AGPED.

Do appreciate the service and coordination it requires as it saves a lot of time for us (provided no glider activity as then I always stick to CAS NATEB/AGPED/HAVEN)

I have worked with ATCOs who nornally say no to any requests, not because it's not safe or generates too much workload, but just because they can't be arsed. Saying No to everything is an easy answer and you can't go wrong.
It's not a type of ATCO I am particularly proud to work with, but unfortunately they do exist.

[double_barrel]

”ABC123, standby” (I might have to check with the next sector or unit if you’re requesting something or I’m on the phone and intend to call you back)
”Standing by, ABC123” (seriously!?!) :ugh:


What response would you prefer ? Silence? Or a super brief 'stby' without a callsign ? - I guess that's what I do.

[CEJM]

What response would you prefer ? Silence? Or a super brief 'stby' without a callsign ? - I guess that's what I do.

According to CAP 413, a standby call from ATC requires no response from the pilot. Therefore ‘silence’ is the correct one to choose from your list above.

[The Fat Controller]

Guilty as charged :}
SAB direct EDI 24 instead of routing via AGPED.

Do appreciate the service and coordination it requires as it saves a lot of time for us (provided no glider activity as then I always stick to CAS NATEB/AGPED/HAVEN)

The "Direct SAB, direct EDI 24" takes you though a sector that would not work you at all if you flew UMBEL/ROBEM-NATEB-AGPED, so requires a bit of co-ordination.

Also, it's not gliders you need to worry about, it's pointy grey things spewing fire out of the back, Falcon 20's, A330 Tankers and anyone playing games in and around Spadeadam EWTR.

[rolaaand]

Guilty as charged :}
SAB direct EDI 24 instead of routing via AGPED.

Do appreciate the service and coordination it requires as it saves a lot of time for us (provided no glider activity as then I always stick to CAS NATEB/AGPED/HAVEN)

The other issue here is that the CAA in their wisdom have approved non transponding gliders all the way up to 195. We simply can’t see them if they are orbiting as the radar filters them out thinking it is weather due to the low ground speed.
This route has also been removed from the available routes to file. It has been a contributory factor in sector overloads in the TMA. From an ATC perspective the best thing the airlines who want to fly this way could do is put pressure on the powers that be to get suitable controlled airspace in there.
It is only a matter of time before one of you has a very close one,or worse,out there. I don’t say that lightly.

[SThor]

What response would you prefer ? Silence? Or a super brief 'stby' without a callsign ? - I guess that's what I do.

From Annex 10;
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1242x207/cdec5969_3e2e_447c_85bb_466f723beeed_08a0b12fdca03dba4ee88f7 20ccfb70b94219f48.jpeg

Just wait and I will call you back. CEJM nailed it. ;)

[Jim59]

"The other issue here is that the CAA in their wisdom have approved non transponding gliders all the way up to 195. We simply can’t see them if they are orbiting as the radar filters them out thinking it is weather due to the low ground speed."

1. At those levels they are unlikely to be orbiting (as in thermalling), more probably in wave where their airspeed almost matches the windspeed so are almost stationary.

2. Even those gliders that are transponder equipped are probably breaking the law if they use them. Class 2 transponders (130 W) are approved for use up to only FL150 - above that Class 1 transponders (250 W) are required. I doubt that many/any UK gliders have Class 1 transponders due to battery limitations.

3. The non-transponding gliders above FL100 are only present in "notified Non-SSR Transponder Glider Areas" day VFR. When areas are not notified then non-transponding gliders will not be there. Notification by NOTAM is typically >18 hours in advance.

4. The emotive wording "the CAA in their wisdom" does not reflect the reality that the previous freedom to fly without transponders in Class G airspace has been progressively removed and that above FL100 is now possible in clearly defined areas and the further restriction of prior notification has been imposed only in the last couple of years.

5. Current CAA policy seems to be that gliders will soon need transponders below FL100 in most circumstances.

[rolaaand]

1. At those levels they are unlikely to be orbiting (as in thermalling), more probably in wave where their airspeed almost matches the windspeed so are almost stationary.

2. Even those gliders that are transponder equipped are probably breaking the law if they use them. Class 2 transponders (130 W) are approved for use up to only FL150 - above that Class 1 transponders (250 W) are required. I doubt that many/any UK gliders have Class 1 transponders due to battery limitations.

3. The non-transponding gliders above FL100 are only present in "notified Non-SSR Transponder Glider Areas" day VFR. When areas are not notified then non-transponding gliders will not be there. Notification by NOTAM is typically >18 hours in advance.

4. The emotive wording "the CAA in their wisdom" does not reflect the reality that the previous freedom to fly without transponders in Class G airspace has been progressively removed and that above FL100 is now possible in clearly defined areas and the further restriction of prior notification has been imposed only in the last couple of years.

5. Current CAA policy seems to be that gliders will soon need transponders below FL100 in most circumstances.



Thanks for the info Jim. Well aware of the NOTAMs authorising this. I have no problems with the gliders being there at all, they are entitled to be. Transponders are always welcome and are a huge boost to safety. My issue is not with the gliders or their pilots.
My issues in that area are firstly quite a lot of traffic wants to route in and out of PH via SAB,especially arrivals for 24, some appropriate airspace would be nice. Secondly, as I’ve alluded to earlier,I suspect quite a lot of commercial pilots are unaware of their responsibilities under UKFIS and also that they immediately drop down my list of priorities if they choose to leave controlled airspace. Gliders are far from the only operators in that bit of airspace, the military play there a lot too. They tend to have transponders though.

[doit173]

Asking for a slot ready message on GMC.
"Good news, slot has came forward, are you ready for push and start?"
"Oh, umm.... we just need to find a tug crew... we'll be about 10 minutes..."

This does not constitute 'ready'!

[Tu.114]

This is somewhat of a problem as well for flight crews. Most airports do not own enough push back tractors to have one wait at all the aircraft with a bad slot. It is fairly common to have a truck at the nose wheel at STD that will wait a little while only to disappear a few seconds after the crew has called in ready and the message has been sent. There are other slotless flights in need of a push as well after all.

So if the slot then happens to improve, the search for the next available tug begins.

This is not the crews or the controllers fault; it is rather a systemic issue. The only way out of this (besides buying a truckload of pushback trucks) would be to push all the slotted aircraft clear of their nose-in position into a self-maneuvering stand where they can sit until their slot comes up; what such a system would do to airport operations is up to anyone to guess.

[mike current]

This is not the crews or the controllers fault; it is rather a systemic issue. The only way out of this (besides buying a truckload of pushback trucks) would be to push all the slotted aircraft clear of their nose-in position into a self-maneuvering stand where they can sit until their slot comes up; what such a system would do to airport operations is up to anyone to guess.

Nose out gates :)

[Mooncrest]

Some years ago at Leeds Bradford I overheard an exchange between ATC and the crew of a Spanair A320. The latter had requested a ready message, even though the aircraft still had forward steps attached and baggage was still being loaded. These factors were obvious to ATC and the TWR controller refused to send the ready message, and pointed out to the Spanair crew that declaring readiness when evidently not ready defeated the object of sending such a message !

[Flying Wild]

Some years ago at Leeds Bradford I overheard an exchange between ATC and the crew of a Spanair A320. The latter had requested a ready message, even though the aircraft still had forward steps attached and baggage was still being loaded. These factors were obvious to ATC and the TWR controller refused to send the ready message, and pointed out to the Spanair crew that declaring readiness when evidently not ready defeated the object of sending such a message !

About as annoying as aircraft requesting push and start when they don't have a tug attached or airbridge removed... Particularly when they are on the stand next door, we also want push and start and they then delay us by 10 minutes. I may have mentioned this to ATC at the time.

[BwatchGRUNT]

1. ignoring speed instructions given many minutes and miles before any TOD, margins are tight these days. Min separation is 5nm and we might have you at 6nm, there is little room for error and a heading is pretty useless when that close.
2. issuing a descend NOW instruction, having it read back and then choosing to descend when you feel like it. The word 'NOW' is none standard RT but has become common practice as otherwise a descent instruction is replied with 'when ready'. I would have said WR if it was appropriate.
3. not listening on the freq when dialling in for the first time before transmitting.
4. not listening in general and when eventually found, denying you've ever been on the freq despite me issuing clearances you've complied with.
5. requesting descent/climb and when denied due traffic, stating you have it on TCAS...…………….erm!!

never a dull day in ATC, its a shame the days of chatter and a bit of banter are dying out due volumes of traffic.

[BwatchGRUNT]

6. PAN PAN PAN - sick passenger but we will carry on for several hundred miiles yet. The PAN raises workload, heart rate and causes a distraction to train of thought.

London, ABC123 we have a medical situation on board that requires priority at our destination and then PAN PAN PAN, would be appreciated.

Save the heart stopping moment for the real PAN/MAYDAY.

[flightcatcher]

[QUOTE=FZRA;10581318]What an interesting thread....and hopefully a chance to ask some honest questions that quite often crop up on the line.

- Re. speed control. How rapidly are you expecting us to decelerate? The aircraft I fly is USELESS at slowing down with any greater than 1500ft/min VS, even with max spoilers. Quite often the only way to decelerate is to "dive down" to the next assigned level then rely on the speed coming back once level. Or kill the VS to <500ft/min to get rid of energy, then increase the VS again. I presume that you see our actual IAS on Mode-S, as opposed to selected IAS?

Yes, at least at my airport unit, our Mode S shows actual IAS as well as groundspeed (which is handy for getting a feel for the upper winds)... and it feels like crews have stopped lying about their speed now, as it's displayed to us in real time!!! (The only 'selected' parameter normally displayed is Selected Flight Level (or altitude), which is both useful and reassuring).

Very interesting thread... presumably some pilots could start a similar one about us ATCOs and our annoying habits...? Over the years we've had some superb feedback regarding (often) fairly simple things, of which we were unaware, but which can make a big improvement in flight deck workload or SA.

[Flying Wild]

2. issuing a descend NOW instruction, having it read back and then choosing to descend when you feel like it. The word 'NOW' is none standard RT but has become common practice as otherwise a descent instruction is replied with 'when ready'. I would have said WR if it was appropriate.


Can I just clarify regarding descent clearances? Often we are given a descent clearance "descend FLxxx" and it's way before our optimum descent point for a CDA. We'll often read back and add on "is that when ready?" 8 out of 10 times, the answer is yes. So, it would be useful if the "Now" or "When ready" could be appended to a clearance to avoid ambiguity and then cuts down on an additional RT response to our question.

[Flying Wild]

6. PAN PAN PAN - sick passenger but we will carry on for several hundred miiles yet. The PAN raises workload, heart rate and causes a distraction to train of thought.

London, ABC123 we have a medical situation on board that requires priority at our destination and then PAN PAN PAN, would be appreciated.

Save the heart stopping moment for the real PAN/MAYDAY.

I've found it quite helpful to give London Info a call on Box 2 approaching the UK whilst still with Maastricht/Brest to pass info back to home base if medical assistance is required but it's not a matter of life or death.

[doit173]

This is somewhat of a problem as well for flight crews. Most airports do not own enough push back tractors to have one wait at all the aircraft with a bad slot. It is fairly common to have a truck at the nose wheel at STD that will wait a little while only to disappear a few seconds after the crew has called in ready and the message has been sent. There are other slotless flights in need of a push as well after all.

So if the slot then happens to improve, the search for the next available tug begins.

This is not the crews or the controllers fault; it is rather a systemic issue. The only way out of this (besides buying a truckload of pushback trucks) would be to push all the slotted aircraft clear of their nose-in position into a self-maneuvering stand where they can sit until their slot comes up; what such a system would do to airport operations is up to anyone to guess.

Yeah I notice this is a problem when there are only so many tugs to go around. I'm not sure how much the crews know about ready messages but we have the option so submit ready + 1 minute (16 mins till latest airborne) and ready +15 (30 mins till latest)... if you lose your push back crew, tell us and ask us to change it to a plus 15 :)

[LostThePicture]

<Rant>

Ignoring speed instructions (happens way more frequently then it should).
Lying about ignoring speed instructions. We have Mode S so can see what you're doing. If you can't make a descent restriction work with an assigned speed just tell me and I'll change the plan.
Announcing on the RT that you're logged on to CPDLC. Doing so literally defeats the point of the system.
Telling me that you've started descent.

</Rant>

:}


This just about covers my bugbears, I'll also add...

5. Penny-pinching airlines that STILL haven't equipped their state-of-the-art jets with (or maybe it's just they haven't trained their pilots to use?) CPDLC. In some instances I can do double the controlling in half the time if everybody on frequency has it. Embrace it, Ryanair... it's the future!

LTP

[Golf--Lima--Papa]

Interesting thread this, some good points and tips.

I have a burning question for ATC, something that I have wondered for years....

When a pilot checks in with tower on approach, what is the correct call? I hear all sorts of calls..

“Tower, ABC with you fully established, 8 miles ILS 05”
”ABC ILS 6 miles”
”Tower ABC with you on the ILS”

Personally I use “Tower Hello ABC”

Could someone please let me know what the correct initial call to tower should be?

[CEJM]

GLP, a pilot myself but according to CAP413 Chapter 6, page 5 the correct call is: “Kennington Tower, Bigjet 347”

Thank you for asking this question as I have been doing it wrong for the last 20 years. :=
I have been using “Tower, ABC ILS26, 5 miles”, unless otherwise instructed. I will change that to align with Cap413.

[Dan Dare]

Final Director: "ABC123 callsign only to tower XXX.XXX"

Initial Call to Tower:

"XXXX Tower, ABC123X a Whizzjet Max-9000 series with information Juliet with you established on the LLZ shortly descending on the glide 9.3 miles final runway 26L"

DEF456 goes around

Tower :rolleyes: tersely: "ABC123X continue"

When a busy runway is well utilised there can be just a few seconds windows for some calls to be made - miss your window, miss your opportunity. Callsign only* really can help controllers to hit that window of opportunity when required. If they want more information than you've given they can easily ask at a more appropriate time.

*even smaller units don't appreciate a life-story when they would prefer to be giving the urgent avoiding action or missed approach instructions

[Golf--Lima--Papa]

GLP, a pilot myself but according to CAP413 Chapter 6, page 5 the correct call is: “Kennington Tower, Bigjet 347”

Thank you for asking this question as I have been doing it wrong for the last 20 years. :=
I have been using “Tower, ABC ILS26, 5 miles”, unless otherwise instructed. I will change that to align with Cap413.

Every day is a school day as they say!!

Thanks.

[poldek77]

GLP, a pilot myself but according to CAP413 Chapter 6, page 5 the correct call is: “Kennington Tower, Bigjet 347”

Thank you for asking this question as I have been doing it wrong for the last 20 years. :=
I have been using “Tower, ABC ILS26, 5 miles”, unless otherwise instructed. I will change that to align with Cap413.

I haven't found anything particular to this scenario neither in DOC4444 nor DOC9432 (Manual of radiotelehony) but I doubt a full position report is applicable here. :sad:
Are there any other manuals on this valid outside of the UK?

Also probably I have flown too many times to EDDF so I got used to say "Hello Tower, ABC, ILS25L" - one day in another place it helped me in a situation of runway confusion.

[Il Duce]

Well-intentioned advice to pilots declined via the most sanctimonious and "I know better than you" attitude.
E.g. helicopter pilot lifts from a private site 3 miles west of a well known and regularly busy airfield (A) and doesn't contact their ATC. Airfield A is using runway 27 and launching various types for training etc. Instead, pilot calls the next unit (B) several miles further up his intended route. Controller at B politely suggests, for future ops out of private site, pilot lets ATC at A know what he's up to. Reply: "I'm outside their ATZ, I'm not in controlled airspace, I don't have to speak to them at all."
Only trying to help you and other airspace users, sunshine, no need for the lecture, thanks.

[champair79]

From the LIDO AOI LHR pages.


Transfer to Tower
Report:
- Callsign
- Distance from touchdown
- Type of APCH and RWY to which they are making their APCH, on transfer to TWR (example: ABC 123,
7NM, ILS, RWY 27L)

I tend to apply that to every airport I fly to out of habit (I’m LHR based) despite what CAP413 advises unless it’s obvious what the specific airfield requires.

champ

[Passenger91]

Not calling us “Sir”
Appart from that, most annoying is not being able to tell us what they want. I’ve often had to use simple language like, “what do you want to do?” , in order to find out their intentions or wishes.

[ShyTorque]

Not calling us “Sir”
Appart from that, most annoying is not being able to tell us what they want. I’ve often had to use simple language like, “what do you want to do?” , in order to find out their intentions or wishes.

Re. the first point... Yeh, right!
Second point: Totally agree, the general standard of RT seems to have markedly declined over the years. Many pilots don't actually seem to know what they are supposed to say, or ask for. It causes other pilots almost as much frustration as it must to ATC, especially on a busy frequency.

Another highly frustrating thing some pilots do is to ask for a service then once given it they turn down their receive volume so ATC have to make repeated calls to them. :ugh:

[condor17]

Re ''Standby'' ...
2 Flatearthers Northbound over the Midlands , to leave from Scotland on their 1st Oceanic trip . ''Shanwick ABC request Oceanic '' .. Lovely lady ''Standby'' ....
3 mins from getting feet wet , after much shrugging of shoulders , quizzing looks back and forth ... Oh well here goes nothing ... ''Shanwick , ABC we're 3 mins from 't Ocean , and not got clearance '' .... Lovely lady with a bit of a bark '' ABC Why Did You Not Call Me Earlier ? '' .......... '' ABC , we did , 40 mins ago and you said STANDBY ! '' .... Could hear Lovely lady thinking '' ++++ '' .

Bwatch G .... re emergencies .
Lift off in AMS , little yellow light comes on re back up brakes , minor chuckle as it's P2 s go . Level out at crz , he's enjoying sorting out the problem , into hold at LAM [ Fri night rush hour ] , still finishing QRH and arithmatic . Turns out the book says we need 3 and 1/2 K of concrete . Doh . Luckily it's 27R .
Best give ATC an heads up , '' ABC , are you declaring an emergency ? '' ........ '' No , just giving you an heads up '' ....... '' ABC , are you declaring an emergency ? '' ......... repeat of above .... repeat .... '' Oh , All right this will be a PAN '' , ........'' ABC , Pan acknowledged , turn left 160, desc 3000 ft ,ONH 1013 , cleared approach '' .....
'' NO , were happy in the hold , awaiting our turn , burning gas , and finishing chks ! '' .......... Didn't mention wanted time to finish meal and have a coffee [ joke ].
As it was , we turned off at Block 16 with 16 firetrucks backtracking to meet us .

That's why aviation is called a game .

But thanks to ATC for '' getting us down safely '' for 36 yrs .

And thanks to D and D for brill. talk last night . Good Halloween fare in the fog .

rgds condor .