Smoking next to an aircraft being refuelled. [Archive]

BluSdUp

20th Sep 2019, 19:07

Dude!
If I had cent for every time I have stopped someone smoking on the tarmac!!!
I have uplifted some 25 million liters Jet A1 and had my first fuel leak the other day.
2 or at the most 3 liters.
Big circus. No smokers, No CNN.
Lokelihood of caboom is small, just compare with any gas station, which has more spills and plenty of smokers.
The cigarettes is not dangerous , the ignorant selfish tosser behind it is. Some people love to challenge authority these days.

tdracer

20th Sep 2019, 19:09

Back in my racing days, I watched - more than once - (from a discrete distance) as others poured racing gasoline into their fuel tank while smoking - once even saw the ash fall off the cigarette and land in the fuel as it was being poured :eek:.
As a certain American comedian likes to say 'you can't fix stupid' :(

The Bartender

20th Sep 2019, 19:09

If jetfuel was as explosive as the interviewed 'survivors' seem to believe, i would never be in the vicinity of an aircraft.

Was it dangerous? No, not at all, but it is illegal...

OldnGrounded

20th Sep 2019, 19:22

If jetfuel was as explosive as the interviewed 'survivors' seem to believe, i would never be in the vicinity of an aircraft.

Was it dangerous? No, not at all, but it is illegal...

Exactly. Unless it's aerosolized or the ambient temp is really high, you could extinguish burning cigarettes (or matches) in Jet A1 all day, without incident (except for contaminating the fuel). But don't do that, of course.

Water pilot

20th Sep 2019, 20:26

Exactly. Unless it's aerosolized or the ambient temp is really high, you could extinguish burning cigarettes (or matches) in Jet A1 all day, without incident (except for contaminating the fuel). But don't do that, of course.

Perhaps not exactly correct... (https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=jet+fuel+fire&view=detail&mid=72FEC3864872BB2B759872FEC3864872BB2B7598&FORM=VIRE)

The folks at SeaTac airport tried a version of that experiment for you.

mikemmb

20th Sep 2019, 20:35

.[/QUOTE]
Originally Posted by The Bartender https://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/625676-smoking-next-aircraft-being-refuelled.html#post10574730)
If jetfuel was as explosive as the interviewed 'survivors' seem to believe, i would never be in the vicinity of an aircraft.

Was it dangerous? No, not at all, but it is illegal...
Exactly. Unless it's aerosolized or the ambient temp is really high, you could extinguish burning cigarettes (or matches) in Jet A1 all day, without incident (except for contaminating the fuel). But don't do that, of course. .[/QUOTE]

I remember staging through an Italian airforce base in Bari many moons ago, we had arranged to be refuelled and I nipped over to see the Italian guys who were refuelling their G91’s to try to get ours done pdq. Found the guy on the fuel hose with a fag in the corner of his mouth, he must have seen me recoil in fright because when he finished topping off the tank he gave me a toothless grin and put his fag out by dipping it in the overflowing tank.

So because no Big Bang occurred, I can confirm the above quote is true, but my nerves have never been the same since!

OldnGrounded

20th Sep 2019, 21:34

Perhaps not exactly correct... (https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=jet+fuel+fire&view=detail&mid=72FEC3864872BB2B759872FEC3864872BB2B7598&FORM=VIRE)

The folks at SeaTac airport tried a version of that experiment for you.

Oops. Yeah, that was a mistake. But what happened in that case is that the sprayed fuel was heated by the fire to the point that much of it was at a temperature near flashpoint, and to vaporize at least some of it . . . and more was heated and vaporized (and some probably aerosolized) when the first batch flashed, and on and on, very rapidly.

Let me see . . . Here. You can ignore Hendry's analysis and argument about TWA 800 (he's one of the "missile did it" gang), but even though the video is bad, the demonstration of Jet A volatility is useful.

Raffles S.A.

20th Sep 2019, 23:26

Many years ago I was idling at a maintenance hangar and a mechanic was working on a Cessna 310 fuel drain with a lit cigarette in his mouth. He stuck his screwdriver into the drain and whatever he did caused the fuel - avgas- to come gushing out. So he calmly dropped the cigarette into the avgas on the ground and it extinguished. This was at an ambient temperature of beach clothing magnitude. No BS, I saw it with my own eyes.

Loose rivets

20th Sep 2019, 23:57

How do you tell a captain, that's Flown the Hump in Burma, not to smoke on a DC3 flight deck? You wouldn't dare! Condensation collector trough filled with dog-ends and a fag lit while turning base at Ostend. Yes, turning base. Suck, suck suck suck - long glowing core of fire - stub stub stub - pat sparks on lap - flare - peep of tyres.

I can still smell the aroma of petrol, see the NO SMOKING placard and the collapse of the pile of previous dog-ends cascading out of the trough. Kuh! Tell the kids of today . . .

WingNut60

21st Sep 2019, 00:46

And I knew a guy who demonstrated to his work crew that you can remove the bright yellow staining of sodium iso-butyl xanthate from your hands by washing them in cyanide solution.

As with the cigarette in gasoline example, it works but that doesn't make it a good idea.

Preemo

21st Sep 2019, 07:16

If you want the exciting bit, 1:32 onwards.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nL10C7FSbE

His dudeness

21st Sep 2019, 08:02

Passenger Sarah Beecroft, 43, said a member of the aviation team ran over to him ‘grabbed the cigarette out of his hand and stubbed it out’. She said: ‘It was outrageous, everyone was going crazy – we could’ve died. It doesn’t bear to think what could’ve happened. It was just an act of stupidity.

The more outraged you are, the easier to appear in a paper. Then this scientist passengers boards an aluminium tube, travels at 800klicks an hour in -60° air temperature at about a quarter of the regular pressure and pays for that. What an act of stupidity, just think what could have happened !

As it says on top of this webpage:

NEWS... BUT NOT AS YOU KNOW IT

old,not bold

21st Sep 2019, 10:19

The late, great Alan Bodger, General Manager of Gulf Aviation/Gulf Air in the 1960's-1970's, one of the DC-3 Hump pilots mentioned above, would often step in to fill a last minute crew vacancy on a DC3 or F27 service operating from Bahrain. So would the Chief Pilot Jimmy Madle. (Spelling??).

His practice was to light up his ciigar while taxying, so that it was going well by the time he needed both hands for take-off. He would then puff contentedly until it was well and truly finished. If the first stop was Doha, it would last through the turn-round and departure for Abu Dhabi or Dubai.

clark y

21st Sep 2019, 10:49

What about electrical bonding leads?

Brian W May

21st Sep 2019, 11:10

Have you TRIED to light cold AVTUR?

AVGAS, different matter.

Whilst I appreciate why the rules are there (40+ years of experience flying/refuelling), I do think there are times where the zealous are just a pain in the arse.

ManaAdaSystem

21st Sep 2019, 11:18

Fire during fueling (https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/B772,_Denver_CO_USA,_2001)

All it takes is a heat source and a fuel spray. The latter is unusual, but I have had fuel spraying out of the fuel vents a few times.
The rules are there for a reason.

Mr Optimistic

21st Sep 2019, 12:19

I was told that in the RN firefighting course the CPO would demonstrate how to extinguish a petrol fire by sloshing on a wave of petrol. It's the vapour that's burning etc. Better make sure there's not a persistent source of ignition though.

lomapaseo

21st Sep 2019, 13:20

Summary

Very little risk by smoking near an airplane fueling

except if there happens to be a wind to vaporize the fuel so be sure and hold a balloon with you while boarding to check for a wind

double_barrel

21st Sep 2019, 13:52

Brian W May

21st Sep 2019, 14:47

Momoe

21st Sep 2019, 15:01

Lomapaseo,

Taking your remark as somewhat T.I.C., this forum does have a habit of being becoming a de facto reference source. No smoking/Naked lights airside is a pretty universal sanction, certainly in Western Europe and the U.S., for good reason - mitigating risk is why aviation is as safe as it is.
Cannot commend the decisive action taken by the captain enough

lomapaseo

21st Sep 2019, 15:19

Dave Therhino

21st Sep 2019, 19:58

Since this thread has gone well off topic, allow me to continue....I would be interested in any comments on this...

I was among the passengers bussed out to a KQ E190 at Addis Ababa recently. On arrival at the aircraft, boarding was done with passengers being allowed onto the a/c in groups of max 5 people "because the a/c was being refuelled".

I have never encountered that before, what is the logic? Is that a KQ thing? An Addis airport thing? An ICAO thing ?

Since nobody has answered this I'll venture a guess that, since it was airstair and not jetway loading, they didn't want a big line of people at the airplane waiting to slowly get in the door while they are fueling.

Ex Cargo Clown

22nd Sep 2019, 09:24

From a chemistry point of view, yes you could extinguish a naked flame with kerosene, it's got a pretty low vapour pressure and a reasonably high flashpoint.

I wouldn't recommend it though especially if it is atomized.

ShyTorque

22nd Sep 2019, 10:18

Point is, fuel in liquid form won't burn. Only the vapour burns.
A full fuel tank contains little vapour, but an empty fuel tank is full of it.

lomapaseo

22nd Sep 2019, 13:15

Point is, fuel in liquid form won't burn. Only the vapour burns.
A full fuel tank contains little vapour, but an empty fuel tank is full of it.

But all you need is some vapour

You then need to take into account the probability of an ignition source and the probability of sloshing to fill a larger closed area

The Ancient Geek

22nd Sep 2019, 16:50

An empty tank is full of vapour. When you fill the tank this displaces the vapour which overflows, (heavier than air), falls to the ground to make a puddle of vapour. This could very well be an ignition hazard especially on a calm day.

ManaAdaSystem

22nd Sep 2019, 19:03

Vapour does not burn, just check the video posted earlier.
Fuel needs to be atomized to catch fire. A fuel spray will do that. As happened in the BA fire during fueling.

Gertrude the Wombat

22nd Sep 2019, 19:11

There are times my fellow travellers leave me speechless...

https://metro.co.uk/2019/09/20/idiot-easyjet-passenger-smokes-tries-get-plane-refuelled-10778001/
A couple of observations.

(1) The old Paddy Ashdown joke. He was in a meeting in his HQ in Bosnia, which was next door to a petrol station. His staff were getting all worked up about this being a dangerous location - what if the baddies were to blow up the petrol station?

"Have any of you lot actually tried to blow up a petrol station?" asked Paddy.

"No", they said.

"Well," said Paddy, "I have, and it's bloody difficult."

(2) Marquess of Bristol. Smoking whilst refuelling his chopper at Cambridge. Then took off straight from the pumps, none of this taxying to where ATC told him to or any of that nonsense.

ShyTorque

22nd Sep 2019, 19:51

Vapour does not burn, just check the video posted earlier.
Fuel needs to be atomized to catch fire. A fuel spray will do that. As happened in the BA fire during fueling.

Very wrong! By that logic it would be safe to weld a drained petrol tank where there is no atomised fuel spray.
Obviously, to burn, any form of any fuel also needs oxygen mixed with it....if that's what you're getting at?

P.S. do NOT try welding a petrol tank at home, or anywhere else.

Btw, years ago I saw a fire begin in an almost full motorbike petrol tank. Once the (thankfully small) volume of fuel/air vapour above the liquid fuel in the tank instantly burned with a "pop" the fire blew itself out. Thankfully, the person nearest put the fuel cap back on again.

ManaAdaSystem

22nd Sep 2019, 21:09

Very wrong! By that logic it would be safe to weld a drained petrol tank where there is no atomised fuel spray.
Obviously, to burn, any form of any fuel also needs oxygen mixed with it....if that's what you're getting at?

P.S. do NOT try welding a petrol tank at home, or anywhere else.

Btw, years ago I saw a fire begin in an almost full motorbike petrol tank. Once the (thankfully small) volume of fuel/air vapour above the liquid fuel in the tank instantly burned with a "pop" the fire blew itself out. Thankfully, the person nearest put the fuel cap back on again.

I thought this discussion was about jet fuel?
Petrol will catch fire very easily. Jet fuel not.
Again, see the video postet earlier.

PJD1

22nd Sep 2019, 21:40

I thought this discussion was about jet fuel?
Petrol will catch fire very easily. Jet fuel not.
Again, see the video postet earlier.

The video posted is a YouTube video that contains many technical errors and the guy clearly does not fully understand what he is talking about (plus anyone who stands over a jar full of petrol and throws a match into it is clearly lacking in brain cells!). The fact is that vapour most definitely does burn! the term "flammable liquid" is technically a misnomer as it not the liquid that burns but the vapour that it gives off when combined in the right proportions with oxygen in the atmosphere. All flammable liquids have a property known as the flash point which is the temperature above which it will give off sufficient vapour for it to ignite if a source of ignition is present. In the case of volatile fuels such as avgas or mogas that temperature is around -45 deg C so they give off flammable vapour at all normal temperatures. JetA1 has a flash point of at least 38 deg C so needs to be heated above that temperature before it will give off sufficient vapour to ignite.

tdracer

22nd Sep 2019, 22:06

I thought this discussion was about jet fuel?
Petrol will catch fire very easily. Jet fuel not.

It's worth noting that rules don't normally take into account the type of aircraft or fuel. Sure, smoking while fueling with Jet A or similar is very different than while fueling with aviation gas/petrol. But most airports do both and don't want to be bothered with different sets of rules for different aircraft or fuels.

ShyTorque

22nd Sep 2019, 23:11

I thought this discussion was about jet fuel?
Petrol will catch fire very easily. Jet fuel not.
Again, see the video postet earlier.

The point you’re not understanding or missing, is that any vapour, from any liquid fuel will burn. Some liquid fuels need a higher temperature than others to vaporise, but once in vapour form, they will burn. The same is true about many solids, even metals.

WingNut60

23rd Sep 2019, 00:12

............ JetA1 has a flash point of at least 38 deg C so needs to be heated above that temperature before it will give off sufficient vapour to ignite.

......... and gasoline has a flash point around -40 deg C. Yes, that's MINUS 40.

The Ancient Geek

23rd Sep 2019, 00:19

......... and gasoline has a flash point around -40 deg C. Yes, that's MINUS 40.

Hmm - Do you mean -40deg C or deg F ?
Both the same at -40

fdr

23rd Sep 2019, 00:43

Darwin would have something to say on the matter.

WingNut60

23rd Sep 2019, 00:43

Hmm - Do you mean -40deg C or deg F ?
Both the same at -40

Hmmmm...I guess I meant deg C, since that's what I wrote.
But you are correct. Not much difference C to F at that temperature.
But I also mentioned "around" because, of course, it may vary slightly with gasoline type, brand (additives) and atmospheric pressure (and, hence, altitude).

A common mistake is to confuse flash point with auto ignition temperature. Very different.

RatherBeFlying

23rd Sep 2019, 01:13

Pilots have long had to learn about mixture control – too rich or too lean the air/fuel mixture (vapor) will not burn, whether methane, gasoline, diesel, avtur or other hydrocarbon mixture.

Viscount Way

23rd Sep 2019, 08:15

Those of us old enough to remember Alan Bodger will probably recall Lord Brabazon’s TV appearance
demonstrating why it was not a good idea for commercial airlines to fuel up with JP4. That was/is a 50/50
mix of gasoline and kerosene I believe. Brabazon was was head of the ARB at the time, but apparently it
was beyond his powers to ban the stuff. The whole thing was debated in Parliament and anyone interested
can read his epic speech in Hansard for 01 February 1961. Sorry, I can’t post the link, but check it out for
history in the making.

old,not bold

23rd Sep 2019, 12:23

Sorry, I can’t post the link, but check it out for history in the making.

Yer tiz...... (https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1961/feb/01/aviation-fuels-and-safety)

MapleTopGun

23rd Sep 2019, 16:40

I recall a fire fighting demo during basic training at RAF Halton where a match was thrown into a tray of Jet A1 & much to everyones surprise the match was extinguished by the fuel

Krystal n chips

23rd Sep 2019, 17:15

I recall a fire fighting demo during basic training at RAF Halton where a match was thrown into a tray of Jet A1 & much to everyones surprise the match was extinguished by the fuel

A similar test of the flammability theory was carried out one day at Celle c/o two intrepid members of the A.A.C.

Unfortunately, the drip tray was located underneath a Scout at the time..... the Scout subsequently had some nice shiny new skin and other bits of airframe.

We got the impression the Army were " not too happy " about this spontaneous demonstration .....

lomapaseo

23rd Sep 2019, 18:29

A similar test of the flammability theory was carried out one day at Celle c/o two intrepid members of the A.A.C.

Unfortunately, the drip tray was located underneath a Scout at the time..... the Scout subsequently had some nice shiny new skin and other bits of airframe.

We got the impression the Army were " not too happy " about this spontaneous demonstration .....

are we talking about a boy scout or a girl scout?

Viscount Way

23rd Sep 2019, 21:59

Thank you. (Proper job) Imagine even the possibility of a similar debate today. Informed, non-political, polite discussion taking place in our Upper House. I actually saw the BBC piece at the time which made a great impression on youth setting off in aviation.