Ryanair UK pilots vote for strike

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Skynews is reporting that UK based RYR pilots have voted for strike action and have announced dates -:
22-23 August and 2/9-4/9 inclusive.
Sorry can’t post a link at the moment.
Be lucky
David
Thanks to Senor Richard for the tip

[Doctor Cruces]

Can't want their jobs that much then. I imagine MOL will use Brexit as an excuse to sack them all as it appears he needs to shed staff!

[RoyHudd]

Idiocy Doctor Cruces. Antediluvian attitude.

People don't go on strike because they don't want their job. I was part of one recently, and we desperately wanted our jobs, and in accordance with agreements previously made and not honoured by management.

[UAV689]

Well done UK ryr pilots!

the industry has been waiting for this for 20years!

lets stop this race to the bottom, I hope regardless of the wings on your uniform everyone backs them. Let them know next time you see them at security, because ryanair economics will come after your airline unless we stop it.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

http://news.sky.com/story/ryanair-uk-pilots-announce-strike-dates-in-pay-dispute-11779358
Here is the link folks.
Be lucky
David

[Alycidon]

lets stop this race to the bottom, I hope regardless of the wings on your uniform everyone backs them. Let them know next time you see them at security, because ryanair economics will come after your airline unless we stop it.

Well yes, this makes it quite clear that the BALPA agenda is to protect the Terms and Conditions of pilots at BA, EZY, TCX and TUI.

[UAV689]

Well yes, this makes it quite clear that the BALPA agenda is to protect the Terms and Conditions of pilots at BA, EZY, TCX and TUI.

jesus wept.

Balpa just do what the council of that airline staff instruct it to do.

And even if that is the case, and everyone gets a better future, is that not a good thing?

[SaulGoodman]

While I do support the UK Ryanair pilots I have to question the timing. Isn’t it a bit too late. 2 years ago there was much more momentum. Brexit far away, no 737MAX delivery issue, economy booming as hell.

Still: You have my support and I do hope you get what you want. What happens in RYR is important for the entire European aviation industry. Good luck!

[Alycidon]

And even if that is the case, and everyone gets a better future, is that not a good thing?

Apart of course from the pilots who get their p45s.

So with just one year of Union recognition, RYR pilots are downing tools, how long did pilots at BA, EZY, TCX or TUI take? How many strikes at those companies have been mandated?
What advice do you think the BRCC have been given by big BALPA who at the same time represent the other airlines who of course will give the sacked pilots first refusal and direct entry commands when RYR "downsize".

All seems a bit Gung Ho to me.

[racasanman]

What a fantastic time to be working in the aviation industry .The company I worked for at Manchester airport , Premiere Handling, went bump owing me six weeks wages and now the day I am due to fly back off my holidays in France Ryanair go and do this. I can guarantee this is the very last time I purchase a flight from this shower and it's not due to the staff but the appalling management as they are laughingly called. It was another small Irishman that finished my 20 year career at British Airways 12 years ago.

[vikingivesterled]

Ryanair had to many bases to orderly organize them all efficiently. And now when the split crew and rule tactic no longer works it was time for a large cull.
Wasn't the message a month ago also that any crew that wanted local contracts had to go to the new Malta based subsidiary because the Irish government has refused even consultation on the matter of the policy that all Irish flagged aircraft have to have crew on Irish contracts that pay their taxes to Ireland. And hence that a lot of Ryanair aircraft and crew would be moved to the Malta airline. This could be a reorganisation preparation for this. Handily coupled with an opportunity to inject a bit of fear into the negotiations.

[UAV689]

Apart of course from the pilots who get their p45s.

So with just one year of Union recognition, RYR pilots are downing tools, how long did pilots at BA, EZY, TCX or TUI take? How many strikes at those companies have been mandated?
What advice do you think the BRCC have been given by big BALPA who at the same time represent the other airlines who of course will give the sacked pilots first refusal and direct entry commands when RYR "downsize".

All seems a bit Gung Ho to me.

a bit gung ho? From a management that will make up to 1b profit and not share any sucess with staff? That says there is nothing in the pot yet puts its ceo on a 100m bonus scheme and can find 700m to buy its own shares? From a management that has out right refused to put any offers or even acknowledge what the union lads have asked for?

This is a company that pays its direct entry staff more than existing long term staff, refuses to put in place a cla which means they can do whatever they want to you whenever they need.


Ryr pilots get paid less than they did 18yrs ago. Its a fact. Yet the company makes far more money.

it puts other airlines out of buisness, why? Because its costs are so low. The cost of fuel is fixed, the other cost is staff.

[Aso]

well done RYR pilots and show you have some spine against that bullie MOL :ok:

[Alycidon]

The cost of fuel is fixed,

er, no it’s not.

Airlines pay pay a variable rate for fuel subject to both fuel and currency hedging, but to get back on subject...

Manpower in any large company is sourced as cheaply as the market will allow, I think RYR see this as good business practice.
Good employee relations in RYR are surely what the BRCC and the pilots want most of all, but strike action won’t make this happen and I worry that downsizing or closing bases won’t only affect pilots, but Cabin Crew, Engineers and Handling staff will lose their jobs too.

proceed with caution...

[Rated De]

It was another small Irishman that finished my 20 year career at British Airways 12 years ago.

His idiot second cousin, also a man short of stature is doing a ripper job in the antipodes destroying another airline.

[wiggy]

Good employee relations in RYR are surely what the BRCC and the pilots want most of all,




(my emphasis)...

That's quite an assumption.

I don't have a dog in this particular fight but IMHO but having seen events elsewhere I'd say that a long term union policy of putting peace and harmony with the company above all other employee concerns can have sub-optimal consequences for the entire work force..

[UAV689]

Gung-ho? Well with just 38% of the UK pilot force willing or able to strike, and spectacularly badly timed, it might be? Good luck though (and to those who get made redundant and relocated).

dont believe the hype. 38% because the contractors are unable to vote!!

Yet again, its ryanair mathematics.

[UAV689]

er, no it’s not.

Airlines pay pay a variable rate for fuel subject to both fuel and currency hedging, but to get back on subject...

Manpower in any large company is sourced as cheaply as the market will allow, I think RYR see this as good business practice.
Good employee relations in RYR are surely what the BRCC and the pilots want most of all, but strike action won’t make this happen and I worry that downsizing or closing bases won’t only affect pilots, but Cabin Crew, Engineers and Handling staff will lose their jobs too.

proceed with caution...


fine. So lets all take continual worsening terms then, because it will allow the company to make more money. I presume you will be first in the queue to take a pay cut at your current employer? You will be doing a market a favour then by allowing everyones terms to lower and make everyone more profitable.

[GuardianMan]

Hi,

I'm a Guardian journalist who has posted on this forum before. Some of the forum members have been willing to engage with me and others less so, which is understandable.

Nevertheless, I'm looking to speak to Ryanair pilots, particularly those who are members of BALPA.

Please do get in touch via this forum or at my email address which is rob dot davies at guardian.co.uk.

Many thanks,

Rob

[iome]

Hi,

I'm a Guardian journalist who has posted on this forum before. Some of the forum members have been willing to engage with me and others less so, which is understandable.

Nevertheless, I'm looking to speak to Ryanair pilots, particularly those who are members of BALPA.

Please do get in touch via this forum or at my email address which is rob dot davies at gmail dot com.

Many thanks,

Rob

Work for The Guardian.. has a Gmail account 😂😂

[737 CL]

Last Friday. HR canceled all the OCC. Some people starting on Monday. People with signed contracts leaving jobs in other companies. Now without Job.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1136x640/3be1f229_d156_4d66_8184_e53babec5fa3_0825d7f0afd2090500f1321 a7a0c2c178998df52.jpeg
Incredible all the people with signed contract and without work.

[GuardianMan]

*This is a repost because I idiotically included the wrong email address earlier*

I'm a Guardian journalist who has posted on this forum before. Some of the forum members have been willing to engage with me and others less so, which is understandable.

Nevertheless, I'm looking to speak to Ryanair pilots, particularly those who are members of BALPA.

Please do get in touch via this forum or at my email address which is rob dot davies at guardian dot co dot uk

Many thanks,

Rob

[BoeingLudo737]

Hi,

I'm a Guardian journalist who has posted on this forum before. Some of the forum members have been willing to engage with me and others less so, which is understandable.

Nevertheless, I'm looking to speak to Ryanair pilots, particularly those who are members of BALPA.

Please do get in touch via this forum or at my email address which is rob dot davies at gmail dot com.

Many thanks,

Rob

Rob Davies - the man who writes c... all the time and has a gmail address :ugh:

[kessler1]

It's almost a year since my Sept flight was cancelled by RYR, costing me a pretty penny to get home from Germany; now it's happening again. Is it just coincidence that the planned strikes are to take place during holiday season?

Either way, Ryanair seem determined to go down in history for p'ing off the most amount of people/passengers/pilots/cabin crew ever.

Rory

[GuardianMan]

Rob Davies - the man who writes c... all the time and has a gmail address :ugh:

Do let me know what I've written that is false or inaccurate, always keen to hear if I've made a mistake. In general the response to my work from pilots has been pretty positive but I'd like to know if i'm doing anything wrong.

Regarding the Gmail address, that was clearly an error, which I have corrected. The email suffix for me is @guardian.co.uk

Best wishes

[Astir 511]

His idiot second cousin, also a man short of stature is doing a ripper job in the antipodes destroying another airline.
What does height or stature have to do with ability? Resist the urge to personalize attacks, it detracts from your argument, Stick to the facts, if you can demonstrate that they are failing in the Job objectives,please do so by relevant facts.
Stature in this case is not relevant.

[Doctor Cruces]

Idiocy Doctor Cruces. Antediluvian attitude.

People don't go on strike because they don't want their job. I was part of one recently, and we desperately wanted our jobs, and in accordance with agreements previously made and not honoured by management.

I KNOW that, perhaps I should have been more direct for those who can't work it out for themselves. Maybe I should have said, with MOL looking to shed staff, perhaps this isn't the best time to go on strike!

[BluSdUp]

So Doctor , when would be a perfect time for a Strike , in Your experience?

I would say now is as good time as any, or xMass or Easter , and guess what , it will happen then as well.

Unless Management comes to its senses and realize it need Commanders and not just hoards of cadets.
I would like to remind You that the Ryanair pilots are protected by law and are the last to be let go in case of redundancy.
Only 30 to max 40 % of the pilots are Ryanair Employed the rest are Contractors the majority on 0-hr contracts.
So, no fear of reprisals.

Regards
Cpt B

[Sailvi767]

It's almost a year since my Sept flight was cancelled by RYR, costing me a pretty penny to get home from Germany; now it's happening again. Is it just coincidence that the planned strikes are to take place during holiday season?

Either way, Ryanair seem determined to go down in history for p'ing off the most amount of people/passengers/pilots/cabin crew ever.

Rory

Insanity is repeating the same actions but expecting a different outcome.

[UAV689]

I KNOW that, perhaps I should have been more direct for those who can't work it out for themselves. Maybe I should have said, with MOL looking to shed staff, perhaps this isn't the best time to go on strike!

shed staff? Do people really believe everything he says?

there are 200 jets on order. Who will drive those. They are additions to fleet. In the company annual report last week they still state they will get to moving 200m a year, up from around 140m.

this is a company in a huge expansion that is making nearly 1b a year profit (that is after losing 200m on lauda and spending 700m on buying its own shares!!)

this week a flight school opened up a trainee scheme with ryr.

it was always the plan to front load recruitment in advance of the max arriving, it had been said in previous announcements to the city and by PB himself.

Its incredible people cannot see the bigger picture and just believe the mouth piece...!

[Gove N.T.]

Sad really.
who are the real,losers in this game of who has a bigger whatzit? Well, it’s people who can only go on holiday during school holidays with their families.
Blame to employer, no blame to striker
I have a young family in the UK whose holiday is during the period mentioned.
travelling with 4 and 2 year old is stressful enough and now the stress of not knowing whether you will fly or not adds further stress.
As usual, it’s the user at suffers and the providers just don’t care

[172_driver]

Sad really.
who are the real,losers in this game of who has a bigger whatzit? Well, it’s people who can only go on holiday during school holidays with their families.

Nice argument...

and I do wonder if you're sarcastic or not. I really do...

Just how many summer holidays do you think Ryanair pilots will get with their kids durin the course of a career?

Edited to add; The above may seem very unsympthetic and I don't wish you or your family any misfortune. Pure coincidence that your travels are planned for those days. But I do think you should reflect upon the cause of the strike before you cry wolf.

[UAV689]

Sad really.
who are the real,losers in this game of who has a bigger whatzit? Well, it’s people who can only go on holiday during school holidays with their families.
Blame to employer, no blame to striker
I have a young family in the UK whose holiday is during the period mentioned.
travelling with 4 and 2 year old is stressful enough and now the stress of not knowing whether you will fly or not adds further stress.
As usual, it’s the user at suffers and the providers just don’t care

I know many ryanair pilots have have not had a summer holiday for years with their family to the companies broken leave system.

No strike is called to upset the public. People dont want to strike, its normally the last resort to a complete breakdown in relations.

If you take the mentality of it will “inconvenience” someone and the right to withdraw labour is removed, then what is there to stop the slippery slope of wages and terms getting cut?

Ryanair recently contractorised an entire country overnight in Poland last year with the creation of Ryanair sun. precisely because there is very limited workers rights there, so they could get away with it, and they did.

An entire country of its staff had its holiday rights, sick pay, pension, social security payments all removed and placed on a zero hour contract, because there was nothing the staff could do about it.

Remember years ago, the change in the fashion industry where by it become frowned upon to purchase something from a sweatshop, its incredible that same mentality has not translated to air fares.

[the_stranger]

Sad really.
who are the real,losers in this game of who has a bigger whatzit? Well, it’s people who can only go on holiday during school holidays with their families.
Blame to employer, no blame to striker
I have a young family in the UK whose holiday is during the period mentioned.
travelling with 4 and 2 year old is stressful enough and now the stress of not knowing whether you will fly or not adds further stress.
As usual, it’s the user at suffers and the providers just don’t care
But why blame the pilots and not management for letting it come this far? If a strike is the only option to be treated a little more humane, what do you expect?

A strike is a last resort, MOL and his cronies could have been just a little more thoughtful and the situation would never have been so bad.

[Alycidon]

Remember years ago, the change in the fashion industry where by it become frowned upon to purchase something from a sweatshop, its incredible that same mentality has not translated to air fares.

Until of course you compare pilot remuneration with that of the nurses, firefighters, policemen, teachers and local authority workers who will all have to pay the price of pilot "sweatshop" wages when their holiday plans are stuffed by industrial action - or should that be inaction? What do they tell their kids when they are sitting in the queues at STN, I doubt they'll feel much in the way of solidarity.

Are you seriously comparing pilot pay in the UK with the wages of a seamstress from Dhaka who works with no time limits on her shift patterns and little health and safety protection from Hazchem such as bleaching agents, azo dyes, pottasium permanganate, hearing loss from weaving machinery and sandblasting, or lax age limits for child workers?

reality check perhaps?

[bulldog89]

Worker rights are not related to remuneration.

[IRRenewal]

Worker rights are not related to remuneration.

Thank you.

[Luke258]

Until of course you compare pilot remuneration with that of the nurses, firefighters, policemen, teachers and local authority workers who will all have to pay the price of pilot "sweatshop" wages when their holiday plans are stuffed by industrial action - or should that be inaction? What do they tell their kids when they are sitting in the queues at STN, I doubt they'll feel much in the way of solidarity.

Are you seriously comparing pilot pay in the UK with the wages of a seamstress from Dhaka who works with no time limits on her shift patterns and little health and safety protection from Hazchem such as bleaching agents, azo dyes, pottasium permanganate, hearing loss from weaving machinery and sandblasting, or lax age limits for child workers?

reality check perhaps?
I made a few times around 1k Euros and less there..there's your reality

[UAV689]

Until of course you compare pilot remuneration with that of the nurses, firefighters, policemen, teachers and local authority workers who will all have to pay the price of pilot "sweatshop" wages when their holiday plans are stuffed by industrial action - or should that be inaction? What do they tell their kids when they are sitting in the queues at STN, I doubt they'll feel much in the way of solidarity.

Are you seriously comparing pilot pay in the UK with the wages of a seamstress from Dhaka who works with no time limits on her shift patterns and little health and safety protection from Hazchem such as bleaching agents, azo dyes, pottasium permanganate, hearing loss from weaving machinery and sandblasting, or lax age limits for child workers?

reality check perhaps?


i course i am not comparing a pilots wages to the above trades, but then again does the above trade pay over 100k for their training for a zero hour contract? I would love for those guys to get more money, we all know they deserve it!

I always back the workers side, because ultimately we always work for someone, and invariably that someone wants to lower costs no matter who they are...

My comparison to the awful fashion industry one does have some merit however. Look at the ryr crew page on fb and you will see cabin crew living 3 to a bedroom in bishops stortford. Yes it is not a factory in dhaka, but it is not the standard you would expect of a 1b profit machine in western europe...but if it gives people a £10 ticket then its ok I suppose....

Its amazing the difference in attitude to a ryr strike vs a ba one!

[schweizer2]

Its amazing the difference in attitude to a ryr strike vs a ba one!



I'd say an amazing difference in attitude in an pilot strike vs the train drivers!

[Gove N.T.]

But why blame the pilots and not management for letting it come this far? If a strike is the only option to be treated a little more humane, what do you expect?

A strike is a last resort, MOL and his cronies could have been just a little more thoughtful and the situation would never have been so bad.
surely by now most sensible people would realise what they’re getting in to when choosing to work for MoL and his ratshti company.
so I have no time for the management and little time for those who work for the company who complain about industrial relations.. I actively sought to tell my children not to fly with that company because of the cynical way the employees are treated. However, choosing a period in mid summer holiday season to strike is a cynical move too,
As to the report that pilots have families too which can’t travel in the holiday season raised by another contributor; my point about choice applies too. The pilot chooses to work for the company in full knowledge that they may be called to work during holiday seasons so has no legitimate right to whinge.
I don’t have a problem with strikes for legitimate reasons but it’s the “I reluctantly choose this period” load of old bull. That said, we just have to look at the other unions in the UK and Aus which cry crocodile tears.
my kids have cancelled and I will fight any fees they incur.

[bulldog89]

Strikes are effective when the potential damage to the company is high.
Nobody cares about a pilot strike in mid November.

If you want to avoid strikes in high season try to fly airlines with happy pilots (good luck with this...).

Added: In the EU striking to improve your working condition is a civil right, even if you knew about it when signing a contract. For some countries it is even written in the Constitutional Chart.

[the_stranger]

surely by now most sensible people would realise what they’re getting in to when choosing to work for MoL and his ratshti company.
so I have no time for the management and little time for those who work for the company who complain about industrial relations.. I actively sought to tell my children not to fly with that company because of the cynical way the employees are treated. However, choosing a period in mid summer holiday season to strike is a cynical move too,
As to the report that pilots have families too which can’t travel in the holiday season raised by another contributor; my point about choice applies too. The pilot chooses to work for the company in full knowledge that they may be called to work during holiday seasons so has no legitimate right to whinge.
I don’t have a problem with strikes for legitimate reasons but it’s the “I reluctantly choose this period” load of old bull. That said, we just have to look at the other unions in the UK and Aus which cry crocodile tears.
my kids have cancelled and I will fight any fees they incur.
With this attitude, conditions for all workers will steadily decrease.
While you claim most employees might know what they are getting into, most that will be striking are not newbies.

They have been with the company for some time now and seen their conditions erode over time, laws broken and promisses ignored.
Being a pilot isn't a job hopping career. There are circumstances in which a pilot just can't easily leave and join another company.
Fighting for a humane treatment in your current company might be the only sensible option.
And the time to fight is now (or might have been last summer, I don't know), since a economic downturn is coming. Doing nothing guarantees a steady decline, which in turn influences the entire pilot community and sets an example for other (yours?) industry.

[old,not bold]

I know many ryanair pilots have have not had a summer holiday for years with their family to the companies broken leave system.

No strike is called to upset the public. People dont want to strike, its normally the last resort to a complete breakdown in relations.

Just catching up here...............what BS.

If you work in the leisure industry, which is where Ryanair, and BA to a lesser extent, sit fair and square, you don't get holidays when the customers have them. Get over it, or work in another industry, eg hauling freight.

Striking is a last resort to get your way regardless of the merits of your grievances, especially when those merits are pretty much invisible. Pious expressions of sorrow about the consequent suffering of the victims of strikes (aka customers who pay your salaries) are just nauseating. Strike if you must in a peak holiday period, so as to maximise the suffering of those customers as a bargaining tool, but spare us the crap about how you just hate doing it.

[bulldog89]

Given a strike in ANY industry the “victims” are the consumers, aka me and you.
Management can choose to block the strike negotiating or just deal with it threatening employees. So in the end the disruption is caused/avoided by a managerial decision.

Do you really think Ryan pilots are happy to strike in August just to get a single “free” day off (UNPAID)? Or maybe there are more serious reasons behind it?

Anyway, I’m now starting to understand why working conditions worldwide are going down to the toilet...

[pitotheat]

Why do people think paying more to park their car at the airport car park for a week than a ticket on a 2 hour flight with their partner is ok?
There is a heavy price being paid by those employed in the airline industry and it can not continue.
For UK workers to strike these days rightfully requires a legally high threshold and it can only happen after the breakdown of talks. Pilots are not generally a militant group and for them to be pushed to this action goes against their high level of care and responsibility they feel towards their passengers.
I wish the Ryanair and BA pilots and crew well in their efforts and to those passengers affected a sincere hope that their holiday plans are only temporarily delayed.

[beachbumflyer]

"Anyway, I’m now starting to understand why working conditions worldwide are going down to the toilet..."

And for years pilots haven't been doing much to stop it.

[Chronus]

Just so that this thing can be put into a proper perspective, what is the strike all about. Apologies if this has already been mentioned earlier in the posts.

[witchiepoo]

"Anyway, I’m now starting to understand why working conditions worldwide are going down to the toilet..."

And for years pilots haven't been doing much to stop it.

A day late & a dollar short eh chaps?
This strike should have happened 10 years ago before the rot set in. Seems to me the pilots are walking into a company downsizing scheme rather than a strike...especially with the MAX being a non-starter. No point calling foul now, we got the heroes we deserved!

[DooblerChina]

I'd say an amazing difference in attitude in an pilot strike vs the train drivers!

Train drivers are on strike every week... pilots very very rarely walk out.

[Boeing 7E7]

For heavens sake Ryanair pilots! You’re behaving like a load of young inexperienced in life, people. Oh wait....

You don’t need to justify to anyone why you need to strike. Let BALPA take care of that. Just support BALPA, go on strike, improve your terms and conditions and that of the industry and don’t worry about the self interested nay sayers. Many of whom have an agenda in posting here and are not simply ‘a poor member of the travelling public’ who’s holiday plans will be ruined... wake up!

[Tracey Watson]

a bit gung ho? From a management that will make up to 1b profit and not share any sucess with staff? That says there is nothing in the pot yet puts its ceo on a 100m bonus scheme and can find 700m to buy its own shares? From a management that has out right refused to put any offers or even acknowledge what the union lads have asked for?

This is a company that pays its direct entry staff more than existing long term staff, refuses to put in place a cla which means they can do whatever they want to you whenever they need.


Ryr pilots get paid less than they did 18yrs ago. Its a fact. Yet the company makes far more money.

it puts other airlines out of buisness, why? Because its costs are so low. The cost of fuel is fixed, the other cost is staff.


It is their company! Why should they have a gun to their head to share with the staff? If the staff don’t like the conditions they are of course free to leave.

Management salaries are too high but not obscenely high. Just imagine for a second taking that manager out and replacing him with captain joe bloggs, I can guarantee that 5 years down the line the company will be losing 1 billion a year as opposed to making it!

it is the management that makes the money (in most but not all cases) the staff are mostly replaceable and sorry to say it not special.

[Ranmore]

Hello "de fumo in flammam"

I note that you do not declare your experience level in dealing with, negotiating and navigating industrial matters from a union or airline management perspective.
I would be interested to hear how you arrive at your quite outspoken viewpoint - and what union/management experience you have benefitted from please.
Hindsight is a convenient quality that you seem to have in abundance to be fair.

I am a BALPA rep for another UK airline - and have been for a few years. It is fair to say that a number of years ago we very occasionally felt that BALPA sometimes fell a little short in terms of support. However - a new General Secretary together with implementation of diligent working practices and pro-active membership engagement has genuinely meant that BALPA has "upped it's game" significantly at every level.
I can personally assure you that the support and advice received by the CC I serve upon is very good indeed. I am also privileged to personally meet and engage with other fellow CC reps from the UK aviation industry - including RYR reps. We regularly meet to formally exchange views, ideas and concerns on all issues that effect our pilot community. I have never once heard from any of the other airlines CC reps that the level of support from BALPA is of any concern whatsoever.

Your location I see is in the US. Are you a BALPA member? Of course if you are a BALPA member - then I may suggest you contact them for detail as to where membership funds are spent or directed - then at least you will have information upon which you can factually post.
You appear to confidently state that you "know" that membership fees are spent on BALPA (employees) final salary pensions.
A bold yet sadly wholly inaccurate opinion that is regularly aired by those wishing to criticise the association.

Your comment that the "ill equipped CCs are boys in a game of men" is frankly discourteous and merely indicative of your embarrassing level of ignorance.

As a CC rep - my desire is to serve my fellow pilot colleagues to the very best of my ability with honesty and integrity. Please let me unequivocally state - that without BALPA's professional support then that task would be very difficult indeed.

Finally - I wish my fellow reps at RYR and at BA every success.

[Global_Global]

Agree support BALPA and vote with your feet... Such behaviour by MOL should be unacceptable. Even a company like Norwegian that is really having issues behaves better :*

[Chronus]

I asked what is the gripe all about, got no response. All that`s seems to be aired is company making pots of money, management doling it out generously to themselves , pilots not even getting the crumbs and stuff the travelling public who provides it all. Great industrial relations and great PR. Just blame BALPA and all those drunk morons will continue clapping after every out bound landing to their watering holes.

[racedo]

I can personally assure you that the support and advice received by the CC I serve upon is very good indeed. I am also privileged to personally meet and engage with other fellow CC reps from the UK aviation industry - including RYR reps. We regularly meet to formally exchange views, ideas and concerns on all issues that effect our pilot community. I have never once heard from any of the other airlines CC reps that the level of support from BALPA is of any concern whatsoever.

Finally - I wish my fellow reps at RYR and at BA every success.

Now if Airline management met up like Union reps they would be investigated for operating in a cartel, using anti competitive practices against the interests of customers. The EU Dawn raid so to speak would follow.

Even the discussions of actions in another airline would come under this, which you seem to be suggesting is occuring.

As for not hearing from airline CC reps regarding level of support............. they have already bought in have they not, like Unite saying all our shop stewards are happy, that doesn't mean membership is.

[racedo]

Anyway, the Balpa DB pension scheme continues to run (at end 2017, albeit closed to new members), with pension costs soaking up a whopping £1.8m of the £6.3m membership revenue, almost as much as salaries, and three times as much as they spent on actually defending members - the bread and butter. Moreover, a £1.6m exceptional DB pension deficit provision was made, and further exceptional pension deficit costs are expected to be ongoing until 2025 (the introduction says £1m for 2017, not sure why there's a difference). It may all have changed since 2018 but not that I've heard, and not that I can find evidence of in a search.

They spent more on Travelling and Out of Pocket expenses £562k v Defending members £544k so everything is ok.

[Boeing 7E7]

Ranmore, check the BALPA annual accounts before directing abuse at me (FY2017 is the most recent one on their website, and while you're at it, actually read the newsletters too) - no, of course I'm not a member, and I have mostly retired. I have dealt with McCauslan(?) in the past, and I was shocked by the experience, swearing that they'd never get a penny of my money ever again. By all accounts, the BRCC reps are very sound guys, but they seemed maybe too swayed by various influences, not least by the Irish CC, and Balpa really should vet what gets issued under their title. "Boys" was a turn of phrase, not intentionally directed at the reps, but yes it was unintentionally derogatory, albeit seeming apt if you read the juvenile guff in the newsletters.

Anyway, the Balpa DB pension scheme continues to run in the accounts compiled Oct 2018 for FY2017 (and though closed to new members, it does seem to be open for further accrual - something even BA NAPSters lost some time ago), with pension costs soaking up a whopping £1.8m of the £6.3m membership revenue, almost as much as salaries, and three times as much as they spent on actually defending members - the bread and butter. Moreover, a £1.6m exceptional DB pension deficit provision was made, and further exceptional pension deficit costs are expected to be ongoing until 2025 (the introduction says £1m for 2017, not sure why there's a difference). It may all have changed since 2018 but not that I've heard, and not that I can find evidence of in a search. So otherwise, it does seem that a vast chunk of your membership dues end up in BALPAs pension pot.

And what has any of this got to do with a pilot strike at Ryanair? Nothing. Your motivations are obvious and your agenda is clear.

[UAV689]

They spent more on Travelling and Out of Pocket expenses £562k v Defending members £544k so everything is ok.

and? Perhaps the spending they spent on reps going up and down the country stopped actions getting to court?

Utterly pointless comments

[BBJ-Captain]

There are hundreds of contract pilots within Ryanair.
I presume that Balpa (as the recognised union within Ryanair) will insist on these ‘temporary contract’ pilots will be released from service before a single striking/Balpa member is given mandatory redundancy?!
I doubt it.
One thing I’ve learned about Balpa over the many years of membership is that they like to talk and shout and organise and incite action from the pilots, but when it comes down to it, they rarely elect to fight the battle themselves.
Its a standard given that you can’t keep ‘full time’ contractors on the books and have them working and flying, whilst making permanent staff redundant.

Personally I am glad for the girls’n’guys who will put their head above the parapet and actually strike. Unfortunately, Ryanair will target them and dismiss them. This is precisely why MOL made the press release stating that there will be job cuts. It’s an attempt to legitimise the dismissals, and the ‘zero hour’ Storm contracts will see the agency pilots sit out a month of flying (which they have to have off every year anyway in a thinly vailed attempt to try and convince the rest of the world’s tax authorities they aren’t permanent employees) to again try and validate the airlines downsizing.
Let’s just see what Balpa does the help them when the axe comes falling.

Finally, I wish all at easyjet the best from the Ryanair management ship jumping;
First there was WB
Old rostering manager - JB
Old DDFO - SC
Old DFO/COO - PB

easyJet’s ‘Orange Spirit’ will soon be blue and yellow!

[Boeing 7E7]

There are hundreds of contract pilots within Ryanair.
I presume that Balpa (as the recognised union within Ryanair) will insist on these ‘temporary contract’ pilots will be released from service before a single striking/Balpa member is given mandatory redundancy?!
I doubt it.
One thing I’ve learned about Balpa over the many years of membership is that they like to talk and shout and organise and incite action from the pilots, but when it comes down to it, they rarely elect to fight the battle themselves.
Its a standard given that you can’t keep ‘full time’ contractors on the books and have them working and flying, whilst making permanent staff redundant.

Personally I am glad for the girls’n’guys who will put their head above the parapet and actually strike. Unfortunately, Ryanair will target them and dismiss them. This is precisely why MOL made the press release stating that there will be job cuts. It’s an attempt to legitimise the dismissals, and the ‘zero hour’ Storm contracts will see the agency pilots sit out a month of flying (which they have to have off every year anyway in a thinly vailed attempt to try and convince the rest of the world’s tax authorities they aren’t permanent employees) to again try and validate the airlines downsizing.
Let’s just see what Balpa does the help them when the axe comes falling.

Finally, I wish all at easyjet the best from the Ryanair management ship jumping;
First there was WB
Old rostering manager - JB
Old DDFO - SC
Old DFO/COO - PB

easyJet’s ‘Orange Spirit’ will soon be blue and yellow!

More misinformed nonsense. It would be illegal for Ryanair to dismiss workers for striking under an organised Trade Union strike. So Ryanair will not do it, for fear of illegal dismissal claims which would be easily proved, resulting in huge numbers of claims carrying unlimited costs to the company.

This is the power of having a trade union. This is why companies, the likes of Ryanair will seek to move heaven and earth to not have union recognition in the first place and spread misinformation and false hoods to try and limit industrial action.

[BBJ-Captain]

More misinformed nonsense. It would be illegal for Ryanair to dismiss workers for striking under an organised Trade Union strike. So Ryanair will not do it, for fear of illegal dismissal claims which would be easily proved, resulting in huge numbers of claims carrying unlimited costs to the company.

This is the power of having a trade union. This is why companies, the likes of Ryanair will seek to move heaven and earth to not have union recognition in the first place and spread misinformation and false hoods to try and limit industrial action.



You’re joking aren’t you?! Ryanair have dismissed people for years because they are members of Balpa, questioned management or went public with working practices, or even were sick. Cabin crew have been sacked on performance and sales related issues for decades.
The company often is taken to court for employment related issues and often settles out of court with large payouts and a no publicity/gagging clause.

[UAV689]

You’re joking aren’t you?! Ryanair have dismissed people for years because they are members of Balpa, questioned management or went public with working practices, or even were sick. Cabin crew have been sacked on performance and sales related issues for decades.
The company often is taken to court for employment related issues and often settles out of court with large payouts and a no publicity/gagging clause.

Do you really think they will sack staff for taking part in a legal industrial action, from a legal ballot by a union they have recognized? Even for them that would be mental.

Ireland, Italy, Portugal,Germany Spain have all had strikes under Ryanair and no one has been sacked. There are laws protecting striking workers within the UK!

I would have have really hoped that all airline staff would have backed staff of ryr, for when the terms go down in ryr, they follow throughout the industry. What happens here, will effect everyone!

[BBJ-Captain]

I would have have really hoped that all airline staff would have backed staff of ryr, for when the terms go down in ryr, they follow throughout the industry. What happens here, will effect everyone!

This I very much agree with. I stand with these guys and totally agree with that they are doing. It’s been a long time coming believe me!

Maybe there should be a trade union wide ballot to strike (as in other countries and other sectors), rather than just company specific. A staged walkout by all pilots to try and generalised and standardised term and conditions across the industry to ensure that the erosion and reduction ceases.
Just a thought.

[back to Boeing]

More misinformed nonsense. It would be illegal for Ryanair to dismiss workers for striking under an organised Trade Union strike. So Ryanair will not do it, for fear of illegal dismissal claims which would be easily proved, resulting in huge numbers of claims carrying unlimited costs to the company.

oh but the costs are very limited.

The maximum amount that you can be awarded as compensation for Unfair Dismissal is presently the statutory capof £86,444, or 52 weeks gross salary- whichever is the lower. This is in addition to the basic award which can be ordered by the Tribunal of up to a maximum of £15,750. These figures are from 6th April 2019

dismiss a few of the more vocal strikers (not the reps they have access to immediate relief)” pour encouragers les autres”

let them take you to employment tribunal in say 12-18 months. Don’t even need an expensive solicitor if you admit it all.

Unfortunately UK employment law is pathetic and only get worse for workers.

[Clandestino]

After browsing through this thread, I've realized I don't miss Leo Hairy Camel that much.

The pilot chooses to work for the company in full knowledge that they may be called to work during holiday seasons so has no legitimate right to whinge.
Yeah! Instead of working for Ryanair, they should have become LoCo 738 pilots like me and get three weeks off during the summer or maybe even go play with the sidesticks like my classmate who gets 3x10 days off in Jun-Aug, LoCo also.

[Boeing 7E7]

You’re joking aren’t you?! Ryanair have dismissed people for years because they are members of Balpa, questioned management or went public with working practices, or even were sick. Cabin crew have been sacked on performance and sales related issues for decades.
The company often is taken to court for employment related issues and often settles out of court with large payouts and a no publicity/gagging clause.


You have missed the point. It’s not about membership of BALPA but rather taking part in industrial action.

[Boeing 7E7]

oh but the costs are very limited.

The maximum amount that you can be awarded as compensation for Unfair Dismissal is presently the statutory capof £86,444, or 52 weeks gross salary- whichever is the lower. This is in addition to the basic award which can be ordered by the Tribunal of up to a maximum of £15,750. These figures are from 6th April 2019

dismiss a few of the more vocal strikers (not the reps they have access to immediate relief)” pour encouragers les autres”

let them take you to employment tribunal in say 12-18 months. Don’t even need an expensive solicitor if you admit it all.

Unfortunately UK employment law is pathetic and only get worse for workers.



An individual is protected by law when taking part in a strike that is called for by a trade union.

[back to Boeing]

An individual is protected by law when taking part in a strike that is called for by a trade union.

ill try to explain it again simply.

Yes they are protected. If they are sacked for taking part in industrial action it is automatically unfair dismissal. However they still need to go to an employment tribunal, which will take 12-18 months to organise, and the payout is still limited to the figures I stated earlier.

You're not so naive to believe that no striking worker hasn’t been sacked in the past or will be sacked in the future are you??

[Boeing 7E7]

ill try to explain it again simply.

Yes they are protected. If they are sacked for taking part in industrial action it is automatically unfair dismissal. However they still need to go to an employment tribunal, which will take 12-18 months to organise, and the payout is still limited to the figures I stated earlier.

You're not so naive to believe that no striking worker hasn’t been sacked in the past or will be sacked in the future are you??

I’ll try and explain it to you again simply. Industrial action has taken place successfully in companies since before you were born. The intent of your statement is clear and that is to instil fear by playing on people’s ignorance. Following your logic that a striking worker may have been targeted and directly or indirectly sacked due to taking part in industrial action, it can therefore also be said that a person may die the next time they cross the road, have a minor surgical procedure or fly as a passenger on a plane. Your motivations are to scaremonger.

[back to Boeing]

Anything but. Having been a BALPA union rep in the past and a very active member and supporter I’m just trying to point out the realities of industrial action in the UK.

[iome]

Instead of arguing amongst ourselves just read the gov.uk facts (https://www.gov.uk/industrial-action-strikes/your-employment-rights-during-industrial-action)

Dismissal for industrial action
You can’t be dismissed for industrial action if:
it’s called as a result of a properly organised ballot
it’s about a trade dispute between workers and their employer (eg about your terms and conditions)
a detailed notice about the industrial action (which is legally required) has been given to the employer at least 7 days before it begins
You can claim unfair dismissal at an employment tribunal if you’re dismissed for taking industrial action at any time within the 12 weeks after the action began.

After 12 weeks, you can be dismissed if you take industrial action and your employer has tried to settle the dispute. For example, your employer may bring in advisers from Acas to help find a solution.

​​​​​​​

[Boeing 7E7]

Anything but. Having been a BALPA union rep in the past and a very active member and supporter I’m just trying to point out the realities of industrial action in the UK.

Thanks. But what evidence do you have to support this stance, other than your opinion expressed here.

[Boeing 7E7]

Instead of arguing amongst ourselves just read the gov.uk facts (https://www.gov.uk/industrial-action-strikes/your-employment-rights-during-industrial-action)





Thank you, this has been very helpful.

[Captain Phillips]

Ryanair have had this coming for years. They claimed union recognition a few years ago, but it was only a news headline with no substance.

[back to Boeing]

I have never said it isn’t unlawful to dismiss someone who is taking lawful industrial action. Just like it is unlawful to dismiss someone because they are coloured or a woman or disabled etc etc.

Doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen. If companies acted entirely within employment law we would have no need for employment tribunals. But funnily enough we do have them.

In previous careers I have very much seen “trouble makers” unlawfully dismissed but the employer deemed it cheaper and easier to get rid.

If you think Ryanair wouldn’t sack a handful of employees during an industrial dispute if it saw an advantage then you are very very naive. Yes it would be totally illegal but the only restitution is through an employment tribunal. It would take you 12-18 months to get there, and you would only get a very minimal payout (relatively) Ryanair’s solicitor of choice is very well versed and very well practiced in employment tribunals and industrial disputes in all UK industries.

Just because something is illegal doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen!!!

[Boeing 7E7]

I have never said it isn’t unlawful to dismiss someone who is taking lawful industrial action. Just like it is unlawful to dismiss someone because they are coloured or a woman or disabled etc etc.


Lol! There is one noun in there that shows just how out of touch you are! Enough said.

[back to Boeing]

Apologies. English isn’t my mother tongue so you’ll have to elaborate. However I am very au fait with nasty employers and unfair dismissal cases having been sat as a rep right next to them as they were told to leave the building and as a witness in their unfair dismissal cases.

But youre the expert here 🙄

[Boeing 7E7]

Apologies. English isn’t my mother tongue so you’ll have to elaborate. However I am very au fait with nasty employers and unfair dismissal cases having been sat as a rep right next to them as they were told to leave the building and as a witness in their unfair dismissal cases.

But youre the expert here 🙄
You sat as a rep right next to them... and these employees had taken part in industrial action legally organised by their trade union, BALPA? No. Thought not. And this is what this thread is about. It’s not about ‘nasty employers’ doing ‘nasty things’.

[back to Boeing]

People will be getting bored of this but I’ll say it one last time and leave the thread to get back to the actual title.

I was sat sat next to people who were about to be unfairly dismissed. And I have been a witness in employment tribunals.

If you are sacked for taking part in a correctly organised trade union dispute (whether that is strike or action short of strike) then that is unfair dismissal.

However your recourse is exactly the same whether you are sacked for striking or you are sacked for any other unfair reason. Just because the strike is legal doesn’t mean you can’t be unlawfully dismissed.

Your former employer will just suck up the “fine” and move on.

It really isn’t hard to understand. Anyone can be sacked. It’s up to an employment tribunal to sort out the details much much later.

[Boeing 7E7]

People will be getting bored of this but I’ll say it one last time and leave the thread to get back to the actual title.

I was sat sat next to people who were about to be unfairly dismissed. And I have been a witness in employment tribunals.

If you are sacked for taking part in a correctly organised trade union dispute (whether that is strike or action short of strike) then that is unfair dismissal.

However your recourse is exactly the same whether you are sacked for striking or you are sacked for any other unfair reason. Just because the strike is legal doesn’t mean you can’t be unlawfully dismissed.

Your former employer will just suck up the “fine” and move on.

It really isn’t hard to understand. Anyone can be sacked. It’s up to an employment tribunal to sort out the details much much later.

Except you have ZERO evidence to support your assertion that people have been or will be sacked for taking part in industrial action. Other than ‘employers can be nasty’, which is irrelevant to this thread.

[back to Boeing]

Ryanair specifically but not in the UK. A very good friend of mine was wrapped up in that one. Not “officially” sacked for industrial action but a nice way around it.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/travel/news/ryanair-files-fire-netherlands-based-13753804

UK but not aviation. And this isn’t even looking through employment tribunal records. This is just ones that made the press. Stop being so naive.

https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/cleaner-unfairly-dismissed-for-topshop-pay-protest/

[Boeing 7E7]

Ryanair specifically but not in the UK. A very good friend of mine was wrapped up in that one. Not “officially” sacked for industrial action but a nice way around it.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/travel/news/ryanair-files-fire-netherlands-based-13753804

UK but not aviation. And this isn’t even looking through employment tribunal records. This is just ones that made the press. Stop being so naive.

https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/cleaner-unfairly-dismissed-for-topshop-pay-protest/




Ok. I’ll call the strike off. Neither will I stand up to injustice because you have convinced me that it might be scary to do so.
Signing off bravely,
Boeing 7E7

[back to Boeing]

I didn't say don't go on strike. I was pointing out that the following 2 dogmatic statements were both wrong. Employees have been unlawfully dismissed by airlines in the UK, striking workers have been unlawfully dismissed in the UK and the costs are very much capped.

So Ryanair will not do it, for fear of illegal dismissal claims which would be easily proved, resulting in huge numbers of claims carrying unlimited costs to the company.

[calypso]

Of course any well run strike will not be called off before anyone dismissed is reinstated. This is not a new battle, the tactics and counter tactics are well know and understood by both the employer and the union. If it was that easy industrial action would not be the very powerful tool that it is.

[Airbanda]

Dismissal for taking part in properly organised strike action, excepting in long term action, is automatically unfair:

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/leaving-a-job/dismissal/check-if-your-dismissal-is-fair/

The employer though does not commit a criminal offence even if they knowingly dismiss for reasons that are automatically unfair. The dismissed employee's remedy is to make a claim to an Employment Tribunal. As has already been pointed out there is a maximum award the tribunal can make. Going to a Tribunal isn't an easy option, the form filling and procedure can be onerous, more so if the respondent employer and their lawyers choose to make it so. There's also a strict time limit. Then there's a day in court with a Judge etc to be faced. Furthermore there were, until the Supreme Court ruled them unlawful, extensive and costly fees.

The effect is that the 'go to law' option is anything but a level playing field. The claimant is prone to being picked off with a settlement (usually with confidentiality clauses) to save the Employer the embarrassment of an actual judgement.

As has been pointed out already even if the Tribunal makes a full award that''s chicken feed for the employer and probably a 'price worth paying' to pick of the ring leaders of even lawful industrial action.

It's arguable that Trade Unionism and Industrial Action in UK got out of hand in sixties/seventies. Legislation passed in the Thatcher era swung the balance too far the other way and succeeding governments, even those that were ostensibly Labour, had no appetite for a return to fairness and equality of arms.

[Startledgrapefruit]

I take it the judge was flying with them for the bank holiday weekend

[beamender99]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49421426Ryanair loses court battle to block UK pilot strikes

[hunnywagon]

Well done BALPA.

Guys and Gals piloting for Ryanair in the UK I wish you well in standing up to a bully; there is no other way. This is now the tough bit for you..... Having worked in the industry for over 30 years there has been a race to the bottom and it’s time to reverse the trend. Keep strong; I’m sure you know that every single airline pilot who has an inkling of how you are managed would support your cause.

[Liffy 1M]

I take it the judge was flying with them for the bank holiday weekend

The next Bank Holiday in Ireland is at Hallowe'en.

[foxmoth]

I am surprised there is so little comment on this. A bit like the TCX strike Ryanair are saying how they will be operating all their flights, this is actually what you want - you don't really want to inconvenience your passengers, what you do want is to inconvenience the Company and this is exactly what is happening - operating these flights will be complicated and costing as these pilots are coming from Europe costing in overtime, positioning and Hotac.

[silverstrata]

The Daily Mail is reporting that Ryan pilots get £175k per annum, and are demanding £375k per annum.

Can someone post here (and on the D.M.) the actual salaries, and the demands being made, because there is a huge amount of company disinformation out there. The company is making all pilots look greedy, and someone needs to counter this with real facts - because it looks bad for all of us.

Thanks.
Silver

[foxmoth]

£175k would probably make them the best paid pilots in the world and I very much doubt that Ryanair pay has moved on that much!

from the Express According to salary tracking website PayScale, the salary of a commercial pilot fly a jet at the company varies from £40,000 to £105,000 per year.

that sounds much more likely and if the top is for a trainer then still pretty poor!

[SliabhLuachra]

£175k would probably make them the best paid pilots in the world and I very much doubt that Ryanair pay has moved on that much!

from the Express

that sounds much more likely and if the top is for a trainer then still pretty poor!

new cadets start on 21K basic salary.

First Officers will see around 39K maximum.

Captains basic salary is about 88/90K and increases incrementally to a max of 142K at the very top for a line captain.

[Ryanairpilot]

"Captains basic salary is about 88/90K and increases incrementally to a max of 142K at the very top for a line captain."

That might be euros. For the UK top line captain is approx £127k total including allowances. Add about 13k for line trainer and around 17k ( I think) for TRE. Pension 8k. Leave system is a month off at company's discretion (usually over winter) plus 10 adhoc days. That's about it.

[foxmoth]

And I suspect you are working your socks off for that!

[Runcorn Bridge]

Is there actually anyone on the picket line today? Not a single UK cancellation. Have the management pulled a blinder and managed to crew all the flights even with Ryanair BALPA pilots on strike, or have most bottled it and crossed the picket line to go to work? I sincerely hope not. This a massive chance to actually change things for the better.

[foxmoth]

Is there actually anyone on the picket line today? Not a single UK cancellation. Have the management pulled a blinder and managed to crew all the flights even with Ryanair BALPA pilots on strike, or have most bottled it and crossed the picket line to go to work? I sincerely hope not. This a massive chance to actually change things for the better.

it does not sound like you read my earlier post - this is what happened with TCX and is ideal, you don’t really want to upset your customers that pay your wages you want to inconvenience the company, Ryanair will be having to work hard and pay out for overtime/positioning/hotac - perfect!

[Runcorn Bridge]

Fair point, but I feel that some disruption to the operation for customers is needed too. If the flights can be covered then MOL will be happy for them to keep striking for the long term. Yes it’s inconvenient for the company, but will be more inconvenient for the pilots who wont be getting paid on strike days. With families to support and bills to pay some wont be happy striking long term. It’s a massive game of who blinks first. So far MOL is winning.

[foxmoth]

I suspect it will take about 3 strike days before Ryanair realise how much it is costing them, its not just the inconvenience but the cost - and if they are using pilots from their other bases how sustainable is that? It then becomes hard to operate the bases these guys should be working from.
In addition it was on morning TV how customers have been booking elsewhere because they are wary of flights not going so that is also going to hurt MOL.
Hold out guys, you WILL get there if you do!

[Runcorn Bridge]

If the rumours are true, many bottled it and went to work. Please someone in the know tell me this isn’t the case.

[beachbumflyer]

Are there many pilots from other bases calling in sick? If they are not, they should be.

[Runcorn Bridge]

Are there many pilots from other bases calling in sick? If they are not, they should be.

Problem with that is if you are a contractor you don’t get paid if you don’t work. Ryanair management are far from stupid in that regard.

[ayroplain]

Fair point, but I feel that some disruption to the operation for customers is needed too

What a thoughtful and considerate person you are.

Are there many pilots from other bases calling in sick? If they are not, they should be.

At up to a grand a day bonus plus expenses you must be joking :)

[Runcorn Bridge]

Fair point, but I feel that some disruption to the operation for customers is needed too

What a thoughtful and considerate person you are.

You know me so well from just one post! You have amazing powers of deduction. :ok:

[Alycidon]

Fair point, but I feel that some disruption to the operation for customers is needed too.

are you aware that an airline is in the service sector?

[Byrne11]

Ryanair has a large percent of pilots who are contractors they can’t strike anyway. 30% of UK pilots voting to strike, can be covered.

The salaries being mentioned are absurd, cadet around 30k SO around 40k FO around 60k SFI around 70/80k + Captain 100k+

The issue isn’t money, it’s the small things everyone else takes for granted

[Runcorn Bridge]

are you aware that an airline is in the service sector?



Are you aware that when a unionised pilot workforce feel that their terms and conditions are under attack that they have the right to down tools, if the company will not negotiate?

[Alycidon]

Fair point, but I feel that some disruption to the operation for customers is needed too.

I’m assuming this comment is a “False Flag” designed to disingenuously highlight a lack of regard to the rights of the fare paying public.

[fergusd]

Just catching up here...............what BS.

If you work in the leisure industry, which is where Ryanair, and BA to a lesser extent, sit fair and square, you don't get holidays when the customers have them. Get over it, or work in another industry, eg hauling freight.

Striking is a last resort to get your way regardless of the merits of your grievances, especially when those merits are pretty much invisible. Pious expressions of sorrow about the consequent suffering of the victims of strikes (aka customers who pay your salaries) are just nauseating. Strike if you must in a peak holiday period, so as to maximise the suffering of those customers as a bargaining tool, but spare us the crap about how you just hate doing it.
Quite, and enough of the'humane' BS as well. The sole aim here is explicitly to cause maximum disruption to the public to achieve your goals (or not). Suggest putting on your uniforms and soliciting opinion in a departure hall full of people who's flights and once a year holidays you have just ruined, I suspect you will then understand what inhumane treatment is like.
The airline industry, so out of touch with almost everything, it seems, it's astounding.

[foxmoth]

If you work in the leisure industry, which is where Ryanair, and BA to a lesser extent, sit fair and square, you don't get holidays when the customers have them.

And furgusd talks about BS! There are many of us working in this industry who DO get holidays at these times, yes there are restrictions and most accept that as part of the job!
As for The sole aim here is explicitly to cause maximum disruption to the public to achieve your goals , whilst there may be a few thinking along those lines most will be trying to cause maximum disruption to the Company and be happy if the Customers are not affected - this certainly happened for TCX where the management pilots had to work nights and weekends, all the flights left pretty much as normal but the company caved in after a couple of strike days, I don't think anyone striking was unhappy that the customers were not too affected!

[Marchettiman]

Inhumane treatment? In my experience that's what you normally get as a fare paying passenger on Ryanair.

[beachbumflyer]

Problem with that is if you are a contractor you don’t get paid if you don’t work. Ryanair management are far from stupid in that regard.

Striking pilots don't get paid either for the days on strike. Contractors should do something to help.

[Obama57]

Skynews is reporting that UK based RYR pilots have voted for strike action and have announced dates -:
22-23 August and 2/9-4/9 inclusive.
Sorry can’t post a link at the moment.
Be lucky
David
Thanks to Senor Richard for the tip


5 days... I’m sorry. That is not a strike. That is a vacation.

[ayroplain]

Contractors should do something to help.

They are doing something to help - the people who pay their salaries!!!

[bulldog89]

5 days... I’m sorry. That is not a strike. That is a vacation.


Don't know about your country, but in the EU we've also seen 7-consecutive-days strikes.
And guess what? Their companies are still profitable and they have the best T&C of the entire continent.

Just a reminder: we're talking about an airline threatening to fire 400 pilots while making a 1 BILLION euro net profit each year (and not providing food and water to crew members). They could fly 24 months with no passengers on board and still have cash...and you're upset by a 2+3 days strike?

[VJW]

Don't know about your country, but in the EU we've also seen 7-consecutive-days strikes.
And guess what? Their companies are still profitable and they have the best T&C of the entire continent.

Just a reminder: we're talking about an airline threatening to fire 400 pilots while making a 1 BILLION euro net profit each year (and not providing food and water to crew members). They could fly 24 months with no passengers on board and still have cash...and you're upset by a 2+3 days strike?

While that’s true are you suggesting a strike is pointless? FWIW running the airline with no passengers is cheaper than than having to pay EU261 compensation to them. LoCo airlines probably only make 10 Euro profit per pax so losing 10 x 189 pax will only mean profits are down ~2k a sector. If you cancelled the same flight and had to pay 400 euro per passenger that equates to +75k.... so yes they can ‘afford to run the airline with no passengers for 2 years and still have money in the bank’ but that’s not what they’d be doing. Out of their 2000 odd sectors a day that 75k per sector soon adds up..

[Paul Lupp]

I have a work colleague due to fly on the MOL Line later today from Stanstead. She's still not sure if the flight will go ahead and the latest news she has been given is along the lines of "It depends if the pilot turns up for work".

So when she leaves work, does she drive to the airport or not? Her home and the airport are in totally different directions from work.
There does not appear to be any useful information on the Stanstead airport website at the moment.... What a shambles !

[bobdh478]

er, no it’s not.

Airlines pay pay a variable rate for fuel subject to both fuel and currency hedging, but to get back on subject...

Manpower in any large company is sourced as cheaply as the market will allow, I think RYR see this as good business practice.
Good employee relations in RYR are surely what the BRCC and the pilots want most of all, but strike action won’t make this happen and I worry that downsizing or closing bases won’t only affect pilots, but Cabin Crew, Engineers and Handling staff will lose their jobs too.

proceed with caution...
Yes, proceed with so much caution and temerity that you end up with no jobs. Just the same as the Merchant service.

[172_driver]

The airline industry, so out of touch with almost everything, it seems, it's astounding

Possibly, but that's a fight each and every industry has to take then. It's not like the money Ryanair makes go to charity (unless you believe in the scratch cards) or make the world a better place for others.

[beachbumflyer]

All flights operated as scheduled Thursday. Too many scabs, I guess.

​​​​​​https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-23/ryanair-snuffs-out-u-k-pilot-strike-as-planes-leave-as-normal?srnd=premium-europe

[Full_blast]

All flights operated as scheduled Thursday. Too many scabs, I guess.

​​​​​​https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-23/ryanair-snuffs-out-u-k-pilot-strike-as-planes-leave-as-normal?srnd=premium-europe

Just for your info, several crew were sent to the UK “out of base” from all across the network to operate the flights. UK based crew were assigned standby duties. Ryanair’s dirty tactics :-)

[racedo]

Just for your info, several crew were sent to the UK “out of base” from all across the network to operate the flights. UK based crew were assigned standby duties. Ryanair’s dirty tactics :-)

Airline wishes to operate a service, staff free to withdraw labour, company free to do whatever it wishes to maintain services.

[bulldog89]

While that’s true are you suggesting a strike is pointless? FWIW running the airline with no passengers is cheaper than than having to pay EU261 compensation to them. LoCo airlines probably only make 10 Euro profit per pax so losing 10 x 189 pax will only mean profits are down ~2k a sector. If you cancelled the same flight and had to pay 400 euro per passenger that equates to +75k.... so yes they can ‘afford to run the airline with no passengers for 2 years and still have money in the bank’ but that’s not what they’d be doing. Out of their 2000 odd sectors a day that 75k per sector soon adds up..



No, I'm saying that FR pilots have plenty of reasons to strike. Even more taking into account what they're asking for and the profits their company makes.

[racedo]

No, I'm saying that FR pilots have plenty of reasons to strike. Even more taking into account what they're asking for and the profits their company makes.

So if profits decline then you are happy for Pilots to have a pay cut ?

[Maxfli]

So if profits decline then you are happy for Pilots to have a pay cut ?

Happy? No, but have done so twice in a 31 year career.

[Alycidon]

Yes, proceed with so much caution and temerity that you end up with no jobs. Just the same as the Merchant service

Would this be the British Merchant service that lost its will to live during the 60s and 70s at the very height of the Unions stranglehold over manufacturing, coal mining, shipbuilding, steel production and transportation. I wonder why the merchant marine ended up exporting their jobs to the Philippines?
If you are a supplier, in this case of labour/skill, like in any transaction between a buyer and the seller, if you quote a higher price than the competion , you lose the business.

[Chris2303]

I have a work colleague due to fly on the MOL Line later today from Stanstead. She's still not sure if the flight will go ahead and the latest news she has been given is along the lines of "It depends if the pilot turns up for work".

So when she leaves work, does she drive to the airport or not? Her home and the airport are in totally different directions from work.
There does not appear to be any useful information on the Stanstead airport website at the moment.... What a shambles !

No airport at Stanstead

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanstead,_Suffolk

[Full_blast]

Airline wishes to operate a service, staff free to withdraw labour, company free to do whatever it wishes to maintain services.

Not really, sending people to cover others striking is illegal in some European countries (don’t know about the UK).

Anyway I wasn’t here to say who’s right or not, just sharing info.

[racedo]

Not really, sending people to cover others striking is illegal in some European countries (don’t know about the UK).
Anyway I wasn’t here to say who’s right or not, just sharing info.

If they work for same company then can be a get out or use W patterns on flights to overcome it.

BALPA screwed up and did what Ryanair said all along they would do prior to recognising them.

[bulldog89]

So if profits decline then you are happy for Pilots to have a pay cut ?

What kind of logic is this? The following of ever increasing profits?
If PROFITS decrease you're still making profits, so no way I'm happy with it. Remember that FR is crying out like they're losing money when they'll just make a 1 billion PROFIT instead of a 1.2 one...

And from my point of view threatening to fire people while making 1 billion every year should make them legally exposed, but I suspect this is not the case under Irish law.
​​​​​​

[the_stranger]

So if profits decline then you are happy for Pilots to have a pay cut ?
If the profits decline, there still is a profit. And ylthe employees should profit with it, just less than with higher profits.

With a potential loss, in our company (not Ryanair) we die indeed got paid less (per hour, just worked more for the same pay).

So yes, of the belt needs tightening, we all tighten it. If it can get loose again, we all should be able to do so.

[paully]

Looking at it from a business perspective Balpa approached this dispute in their usual, rule book fashion, which of course O Leary doesnt have. He does however have Balpa`s number and pushed the buttons he knew would work. Ryanair have never been a `redundancies` company instead being cash rich and expanding. So 3 weeks before the `Grand Plan` he issued his armageddon video. He is noted for having the ability to carry such threats out. That I would suggest changed the course of this dispute. The Union were powerless. The pilots weren`t scabs, they were people with hopes, fears, dreams, aspirations and families. They simply took the view that what they had was a lot better than what they might lose..

I`m not making any comment on the rights or wrongs of this dispute but merely how the dynamics lined up. Many, of course, hate O`Leary but it is foolish to try to ignore him, as Balpa found out.

[racedo]

If the profits decline, there still is a profit. And ylthe employees should profit with it, just less than with higher profits.

With a potential loss, in our company (not Ryanair) we die indeed got paid less (per hour, just worked more for the same pay).

So yes, of the belt needs tightening, we all tighten it. If it can get loose again, we all should be able to do so.

Employees are paid a wage, that is all company is legally required to do. Nothing stops employees investing in the company and buying shares if they wish.

[beardy]

Employees are paid a wage, that is all company is legally required to do. Nothing stops employees investing in the company and buying shares if they wish.
In some enlightened companies employees are allowed both a share of the capital by way of shares and/or a share of the profits.

[beachbumflyer]

Pilots from other European bases were sent to the UK as strike breakers to break the strike. They should've known better. They could've called a strike or just suddenly become ill to avoid doing their UK colleagues flights. All you need is some guts to back up your colleagues on strike. Whatever the benefits UK pilots could achieve is going to benefit them, too. Shame on them.
UK pilots needed their help. With this kind of behavior things are never going to get better at RYR. Everybody has to stick together.

[foxmoth]

ONe thing I do find annoying are the lies that RYA seem to get away with, in the Times today they were reporting that the pilots were demanding a wage rise to something like £375k for a Captain - I don't know what their demands actually are but I am pretty sure that this is not what they are asking for and I do know that a Captains salary is not almost half of that as also claimed in the same article - I suspect if Ryanair actually paid what they claim the pilots are getting there would not be any strikes!

[racedo]

In some enlightened companies employees are allowed both a share of the capital by way of shares and/or a share of the profits.

Ultimately for company alone to decide to run an ESOP but because it is all across Europe with employees in many countrys then each country has different rules for ESOPs which means lots of cost involved.

[racedo]

Pilots from other European bases were sent to the UK as strike breakers to break the strike. They should've known better. They could've called a strike or just suddenly become ill to avoid doing their UK colleagues flights. All you need is some guts to back up your colleagues on strike. Whatever the benefits UK pilots could achieve is going to benefit them, too. Shame on them.
UK pilots needed their help. With this kind of behavior things are never going to get better at RYR. Everybody has to stick together.

Right......

Remind me what was BALPA's attitude to seniority for Pilots when BCAL / Dan Air / BMI etc were acquired by BA. Did they wholly consent that the acquired business's pilots automatically got seniority based on their previous experience or was it, Sod off I was here first.

[racedo]

ONe thing I do find annoying are the lies that RYA seem to get away with, in the Times today they were reporting that the pilots were demanding a wage rise to something like £375k for a Captain - I don't know what their demands actually are but I am pretty sure that this is not what they are asking for and I do know that a Captains salary is not almost half of that as also claimed in the same article - I suspect if Ryanair actually paid what they claim the pilots are getting there would not be any strikes!

So what has BALPA claimed they want ?

So a business should automatically just pay what a Union demands, yup that worked well before.

[foxmoth]

So a business should automatically just pay what a Union demands

of course not and that is certainly not what I said, but the papers should be talking to both sides and getting their facts right, Ryanair are know for treating their staff badly and if you do that it is only a matter of time before people stand their ground and refuse to accept being treated in that way. When it comes down to a pay negotiation then people are going to look at parity with others doing the same job and at least be looking at some catch up if they are behind their peers, I very much doubt that they are after more than doubling the industry norm!

[SamYeager]

the papers should be talking to both sides and getting their facts right, Ryanair are know for treating their staff badly
To the general public Ryanair are known for treating their customers badly but supposedly offer cheap fares. The general public, as opposed to those in the industry, have zilch knowledge of how Ryanair treats its staff but can see that their journeys are being disrupted by said staff. If BALPA and Ryanair staff want the general public to know how pilots are treated and what their negotiating demands are then it's up to them to not only make the media aware but push the media to make the public aware as well.

[racedo]

of course not and that is certainly not what I said, but the papers should be talking to both sides and getting their facts right, Ryanair are know for treating their staff badly and if you do that it is only a matter of time before people stand their ground and refuse to accept being treated in that way.
You have evidence ?
In an industry with huge numbers of jobs then why are people happy to stay ?


When it comes down to a pay negotiation then people are going to look at parity with others doing the same job and at least be looking at some catch up if they are behind their peers, I very much doubt that they are after more than doubling the industry norm!

Strange that BALPA have refused to disclose anything, after all IF reasonable they would find the travelling public supporting them.

Like in BA, BA have stated that Pilots not happy going from £167k to £200k and demanding more.

Level of sympathy for Pilots from travelling public..... ZERO

[BluSdUp]

You need to take it easy boy!

RYR pilots are just trying to adjust a somewhat skewed industry,and now after all these years having the right and the legal tools to fight a fair battle for steady and good conditions in THE most profitable Airline in Europe.
Would it be so bad if RYR pilots finally got rewarded for the hard work they do and in the process stopped the downward spiral in the industry.
Now Racedo would that be so bad!

Regards
Cpt B

[BluSdUp]

Remind me again Racedo , Pilot or Slf?

[pilotmike]

ONe thing I do find annoying are the lies that RYA seem to get away withWhat have the Royal Yachting Association done to upset you? What lies have they told worthy of complaint in this forum?

Michael O'Leary and RYR on the other hand....

[Atlantic Explorer]

Remind me again Racedo , Pilot or Slf?

MOL by the sounds of it!!

[ayroplain]

To the general public Ryanair are known for treating their customers badly but supposedly offer cheap fares.
The general public know no such thing. This is a myth created and promulgated by the gutter press simply because such headlines draw millions to their websites.

The vast majority of Ryanair passengers just keep on flying with them and thoroughly enjoy the cheaper fares which are not "supposed" but very real. They're not interested in reclining seats nor airbridges nor another myth known as "free food" onboard. Just get me to my destination on time and as cheaply as possible. Something that Ryanair does extremely well. That's why they have load factors in the nineties per cent. Those passengers have and always will have nothing but contempt for the "ALPA's" of this world who, like it or not, come across as the epitome of greed and selfishness. I see BALPA is now at war with BA as well which just reinforces that opinion.

[foxmoth]

What have the Royal Yachting Association done to upset you? What lies have they told worthy of complaint in this forum?

Michael O'Leary and RYR on the other ha

yes my apologies to the Royal Yachting Association!