BA422 smoke incident Valencia

[tubby linton]

G-MEDN declared an emergency inbound to Valencia today due to smoke in the cabin. The passengers evacuated the aircraft via the slides.https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/breaking-british-airways-flight-catches-18836524.amp?__twitter_impression=true

[MarcJF]

BA does seem to have more than it's fair share of incidents at the moment. 3 weeks ago the LGW / Cancun flight had to make an emergency landing for fumes. Different aircraft. Glad all are safe.

[PaxBritannica]

Video from inside cabin

[gearlever]

White smoke, so no fire?

[Atlantic Explorer]

Cabin crew don’t seem to bother with smoke hoods? Do they know what exactly what substances they are breathing in?

[tubby linton]

https://www.eurocockpit.be/sites/default/files/2017-06/Guidelines%20on%20smoke%2C%20fume%2C%20smell%20events%2C%20E CA%202017.pdf Eurocockpit advice after a smoke fumes incident.
Has there been any news on the cockpit crew being affected?
Lots of photos starting to appear with two exits not opened and passengers wandering around with their baggage. When will they ever learn?
https://twitter.com/mattarmitage/status/1158458533916160002?s=21

[atakacs]

Cabin crew don’t seem to bother with smoke hoods? Do they know what exactly what substances they are breathing in?
Indeed a bit surprising, unless they fully asserted the source.
Let's wait for more details.

[Buswinker]

Rumour it was an engine fire- anyone have any advance on this?

[uffington sb]

Will they ever learn to video in landscape and not portrait!!!

[Hotel Tango]

Will they ever learn to video in landscape and not portrait!!!

LOL! Which maybe says a lot about these people!

[nivsy]

This actually looks quite scary. Are some cabin crew not meant to be at bottom of slide to assist pax?

[MichaelKPIT]

This actually looks quite scary. Are some cabin crew not meant to be at bottom of slide to assist pax?
Not necessarily. Maybe someone from BA can chime in here but when I was with USAirways (many years ago now) the commands were, while tapping the selected psgrs on the shoulder, “you and you, stand at the bottom and hold the slide. You help them off and send them away!” (Amazing how it sticks with you decades later!)

[meet and greet]

Passenger comments from this flight

"Just been evacuated off a flight to Valencia after plane filled with smoke. No water, no first aid. People crying. No BA representative. Help!."

"We are stranded at Valencia airport and no one from BA has said a word to us since the plane filled with smoke. No food, no bags, no information. Someone tell us what’s going on."

"Still waiting to hear what actually happened on our British Airways flight from LHR to Valencia in which our cabin filled with smoke in the last 10 minutes of flight, had to disembark via emergency chutes. No comms 60 mins and counting!

BA statement "British Airways teams are assisting customers who are in the airport terminal."

Clearly not......no surprise there then.... the usual BA approach to "caring for" their passengers.

Given the ten minutes when "smoke filled the cabin", the commander would have briefed the CC about how the evacuation should be handled and which exits should be used. CC and quite possibly commander would have repeated instructions to passengers to leave all personal belongings behind. A message which should be very quickly and firmly reinforced at the head of the slide.....a slide evac is an emergency procedure, speed is of the essence.
"

[EcamSurprise]

Not necessarily. Maybe someone from BA can chime in here but when I was with USAirways (many years ago now) the commands were, while tapping the selected psgrs on the shoulder, “you and you, stand at the bottom and hold the slide. You help them off and send them away!” (Amazing how it sticks with you decades later!)

Yes but now sadly it seems people will slowly walk away and start filming or taking photos so they can show off to the Internet.

[Hotel Tango]

Yes but now sadly it seems people will slowly walk away and start filming or taking photos so they can show off to the Internet.

Not that I condone it, but the thing is that in some instances (not necessarily here) it can be of value to investigators.

[PAXboy]

As much as you see the messages from those saying BA was all terrible, one twitter cited by BBC said that the crews were wonderful, some CC did have O2 masks on but I saw prais for flight and cabin crew. So everyone sees the problem from their own point of view, their own experience and expectations. {I do not and have never worked for BA}

[meet and greet]

{ have no doubt that the crew of this aircraft handled this emergency in a very professional manner. The evacuation took place, and no lives were lost...that is the important thing. But clearly after the event no one was looking after the needs of the pax,. who would understandably be suffering from shock and would be distressed. It is this aspect of BA's customer care that I am criticizing.

[kaikohe76]

This unfortunate incident might just confirm the continuing need for a simple, straight forward & easy to understand pre flight emergency briefing. This as an alternative to having a load of rugby players prancing about & this, seemingly the important thing, rather than getting the message across to the pax! This incident, like all when there is smoke / fire inside the aircraft, resulted in the aircraft landing safely & all those on board evacuating. That is the most important issue, anything else can be sorted / discussed later on. Looks a good job by the Crew.

[wiggy]

This actually looks quite scary. Are some cabin crew not meant to be at bottom of slide to assist pax?

No, however some airlines may have a procedure similar to that described by MichaelKPIT.

[Dont Hang Up]

I am surprised noone has thus far suggested this was extreme condensation from the AC. Particular the timing - ten minutes before landing - is when the aircraft may have descended into outside air that is warmer than the cabin. But one also notes the lack of breathing distress from passengers not wearing masks. There was also no sign of "smoke" issuing from the open doors during the evacuation.

[babybaby]

Perhaps there was a good reason why the two exits closest to the left hand engine weren't used?

[wiggy]

{ have no doubt that the crew of this aircraft handled this emergency in a very professional manner. The evacuation took place, and no lives were lost...that is the important thing. But clearly after the event no one was looking after the needs of the pax,. who would understandably be suffering from shock and would be distressed. It is this aspect of BA's customer care that I am criticizing.

I'm not sure about "clearly", we haven't heard the full story from everybody but we know it's an evacuation, at an BA outstation.

Personally once off the aircraft and in a safe place I'd be expecting the airport resources/the airport authorities to take over from the crew and be responsible for providing medical attention for those genuinely in shock or seriously distressed.

It is also perhaps worth considering that it is entirely possible that the only BA staff on hand were the crew - who I'm sure tried to do their best once off the aircraft but had just been through the wringer themselves..

[Auxtank]

Rumour it was an engine fire- anyone have any advance on this?




If you're basing that rumour on one of the passengers supposedly quoted on the BBC News website: "Another passenger at Valencia airport told the BBC a member of staff on the ground had said there had been a "fire in the motor" of the aircraft."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49243757

Then I think we can safely discount that one at this point in proceedings.

Looks more like mist than smoke. Once had that on an Air India 737-200ADV - people were getting worried until the cabin crew said it was caused by sudden temperature differences as we descended.

[Buswinker]

Auxtank no not that one but saw a report in the Spanish press. Was trying to square the report with a bit more technical insight than that provided by el pais 😉

[CYTN]

In the event of passengers hauling their luggage off with them , the crew manning the slides do have a dilema , you cannot really send them back to put their luggage back or pile up the luggage at the door so I suppose they have to let them go so to speak . There has been the usual suggestions of lockable overheads , all baggage checked into the hold , fines and so on .
What about the following ; Anyone with luggage retrieved during an emergency evacuation will have to give it up and basically forfeit it for 3 months before they are allowed to pass thro back into the terminal . The only thing that they will be allowed to retain is essential medical supplys , everything else is retained and can only be collected / reclaimed at their own expence after the 3 month period has expired . Failure to collect for a duration of one month after this and the goods will be destroyed or handed over for charities. If this is widely publicised and highlighted on the conditions of travel
I am sure the message would soon get through and this stupidity would for the most part cease .

[EcamSurprise]

In the event of passengers hauling their luggage off with them , the crew manning the slides do have a dilema , you cannot really send them back to put their luggage back or pile up the luggage at the door so I suppose they have to let them go so to speak . There has been the usual suggestions of lockable overheads , all baggage checked into the hold , fines and so on .
What about the following ; Anyone with luggage retrieved during an emergency evacuation will have to give it up and basically forfeit it for 3 months before they are allowed to pass thro back into the terminal . The only thing that they will be allowed to retain is essential medical supplys , everything else is retained and can only be collected / reclaimed at their own expence after the 3 month period has expired . Failure to collect for a duration of one month after this and the goods will be destroyed or handed over for charities. If this is widely publicised and highlighted on the conditions of travel
I am sure the message would soon get through and this stupidity would for the most part cease .

So now you have passengers going through their bag and getting essentials out before evacuating?

Or perhaps they just won’t know because they haven’t listened..

[Auxtank]

So now you have passengers going through their bag and getting essentials out before evacuating?

Or perhaps they just won’t know because they haven’t listened..

I'm sure CYTN means the bags will be confiscated AFTER the evacuation (back in the terminal) and at that point essential medical supplies can be returned before the bag is then impounded.

I don't know if CYTN's plan would deter people - their thinking would be; "I'd rather lose my bag for 3 months than have it burn."
No - what needs to happen is strenuous education, and awareness of just how bloody stupid it is. Recent Russian event statistics provide all the evidence you need that it caused unnecessary deaths.

[zukini]

Threatening aggressive behaviour with landing and ejection by police doesn't stop that from happening so why would any threat stop someone from taking their bags out during evac.
i think the reality is the "training" doesn't sink in and faced with emergency the shock of the situation doesn't make people think clearly or to reasoning.
The best thing the cabin crew can do is keep the exit clear once the passenger has brought their belongings to the door. So the bag had to go out at that point.

This argument will roll and roll like the enormous "hand luggage" but unless your faced with the emergency yourself you won't know what you'd do.

It's hard enough getting people to board the aircraft. The amount of times I've been sat at the front of the plane watching people board. Stop at row 1. then look at their ticket. Read it out loud. 27f. Then say something like is that at the back of the plane looking at row 4 thinking it's somewhere near there....
its no wonder the elements of the safety briefing fall on deaf ears.

[paull]

... I've been sat at the front of the plane watching people board. Stop at row 1. then look at their ticket. Read it out loud. 27f. Then say something like is that at the back of the plane looking at row 4 thinking it's somewhere near there..

If you catch a train you get a display telling you where your seat is. Should there be something similar on the boarding screen. Given that infrequent travelers will probably have a printing boarding pass of some sort, why not clearly mark the position of the seat on a layout of the plane. You might also want to make it clear "How to read your boarding card" .

The first time my father flew, he was told they would fly over the alps. The plane was just above the cloud at one point with wisps of vapour visible at the window. He was terrified! He thought the plane was so low over the mountains that they were skimming the snow.

[Dominator2]

I think that so many of you are missing the point. If an aircraft suffers from smoke, fumes, mist or and other unannounced substance in the air then carry out the SMOKE AND FUMES Emergency drill.

If the front end put on their masks and declared an Emergency then why was that not carried out in the cabin. I would rather breath Oxygen for ten minutes as a precaution than be killed by some poisonous particles in the cabin air conditioning.

Saying that because no one was injured the cabin crew performed their job correctly is ridiculous.

I am assuming that the whole crew has been grounded pending a full investigation by BA and if need be by the CAA?

[Evey_Hammond]

Fairly sensible interviewee on BBC just said they were descending, there was a "bang" (undercarriage lowering?) and then the mist started to enter the cabin. Does that narrow down possible causes?

[Auxtank]

And the the prize for the most stupid person on this thread goes to...........

And the prize for the rudest person on this thread goes to you.

Easy to see why the two are similar for the reasons given.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_9pAXcWKm4

[Less Hair]

Possibly people were not aware that they will face a slide on the way out or that this was still formally considered to be some emergency? If people misbehave like that I'd say they must be instructed differently and not threatened afterwards. The plan must be made for panic situations like the style and volume of emergency announcements already is. Actually remote locking the bins might help.

[Magplug]

Airlines want to make all their baggage loaders redundant so they discourage their passengers from bringing checked baggage on by: 1) promising generous cabin bag allowances and 2) charging for hold baggage. This finds a great degree of success with the punters who are generally scared of checked baggage getting lost and are never shy of saving $1.

Result: Already dense cabins are overloaded with full overheads and bags under every seat. Ground staff are obliged to take baggage away from passengers as it will not all fit into the cabin... to be loaded into the hold by the loaders who now remain. The boarding process takes twice as long and becomes more labour intensive. 100% of evacuations recently have seen passengers struggling towards slides with their wheelie bags. If we have another Airtours 737 fire in all likelihood nobody will get out.

Who thought this was a good idea? Why did the Authority approve it?


@Dominator2..... Do you know nothing about commercial aircraft? Passenger oxygen masks mix chemically generated oxygen with ambient air to provide enough oxygen to sustain consciousness during an emergency descent. In this case the ambient air contains smoke - So you will still be breathing smoke. That's why they are never used deployed such situations.
P.S. Locking overhead lockers remotely only solves half the problem. What about all the baggage under the seats?

[gearlever]

In the meanwhile there are several vids on YT etc.
Seems no one had breathing problems e.g. pax were talking even laughing.
Condensation?

[Dominator2]

Magplug,

My Mistake. In the military aircraft that I flew that were similar to commercial aircraft the rear crew had oxygen masks which could provide 100% oxygen if required.

If the press reports concerning this incident are true it would still appear that the BA crew were lacking in providing passengers information as to what was happening. If the front end are busy I assume that it falls to the Cabin Service Manager (or equivalent) to inform the passengers?

Remote locking lockers and no bags under seats is the answer but that will never happen. Why should Flight Safety be allowed to over-ride commercial pressures?

[wiggy]

Magplug, If the front end are busy I assume that it falls to the Cabin Service Manager (or equivalent) to inform the passengers?


That requires the Cabin crew knowing exactly why the "front end" are busy ....

[DaveReidUK]

BBC News talking about "acrid smoke" would suggest more than just condensation, though it's not clear who they were quoting.

[Paranoid]

Making a passenger address from the Flight Deck whilst wearing a Smoke Mask not impossible but the 'Darth Vader' type audio is hardly reassuring , probably better to delegate and focus on getting Aircraft on ground whilst avoiding hills around Valencia.
Cabin Crew have difficult dilemma, Smoke Mask generally the best idea but is does rather isolate you and makes communication difficult.
Not a nice situation to find yourself in but a successful outcome.
Real events are never perfect in their execution.
Any long term fume effects need to be considered.

[giggitygiggity]

If the front end put on their masks and declared an Emergency then why was that not carried out in the cabin. I would rather breath Oxygen for ten minutes as a precaution than be killed by some poisonous particles in the cabin air conditioning.

I assume you're not a pilot so i'll explain it for you. If you are (god help us), perhaps you'd like to re-read the smoke checklists as those on the Airbus or the Boeing don't reccomend putting the passenger oxygen masks down for very good reasons.

The flight crew MUST be able to breathe clearly and for that they have positive pressure full face masks (looks like a firemans breathing aparatus or scuba if you're curious) as if they succumb to smoke, everyone dies. In the cabin, positive pressure masks are not practical, so they have a chemical oxygen generator. The chemical generator generates an incredible amount of heat and of course, oxygen (see ValuJet Flight 592 for details), and what fuels fires? If they generate more heat and more oxygen, they could easily worsen the situation - which is why it's not recommended. They are not pressurised masks, just supplementary oxygen that doesn't stop the user breathing in the external ambient smoke/fumes anyway.

In this emergency, the pilots FIRST responosibility is to get the aircraft on the ground as quickly as possible. The quicker they are on the ground, the better chance everyone has of surviving.

I am assuming that the whole crew has been grounded pending a full investigation by BA and if need be by the CAA?

Clearly you're not a pilot, so perhaps with your ignorance and hyperbole, you shouldn't be so harsh: "CREW MUST BE GROUNDED FOR 2 YEARS UNTIL THE AAIB RELEASE THEIR REPORT" when actually, they did their job effectively. They landed the plane as expeditiously as possible and evacuated on the runway leading to 3 people taken to hospital for minor injuries/precautions. If you don't understand the situation, then why defame people with a clear lack of knowledge. I'm sure the crew will be reading this thread and should be commended, not shouted at by the aeronautical equivalent of a quack!

[giggitygiggity]

Rant aside: Wonder what others would do, go straight to the Smoke/Fumes removal checklist as you realistically don't have time to run the identification checklist, or just focus 100% on landing ASAP?

[Council Van]

ITV reporting that they had a news editor on board who suggests it took ten minutes to evacuate after coming to a stop,

Jonathan Wald said a "panic-stricken stewardess" struggled to open the plane door, leaving them stuck inside the smoke-filled plane 10 minutes after it had landed.

​​​​​​I wonder if this is a case of British journalistic sensationalism at its very worst.

[RHS]

ITV reporting that they had a news editor on board who suggests it took ten minutes to evacuate after coming to a stop,

Jonathan Wald said a "panic-stricken stewardess" struggled to open the plane door, leaving them stuck inside the smoke-filled plane 10 minutes after it had landed.

​​​​​​I wonder if this is a case of British journalistic sensationalism at its very worst.

What do you think? Doesn’t look very “panic stricken” to me from the videos!

[Council Van]

What do you think? Doesn’t look very “panic stricken” to me from the videos!
I was trying to be polite about Journalist's 😉
I suspect he is talking a load of ****

[Dream Buster]

BBC (Regional as not important enough for national radio) Interview former BA Capt Tristan Loraine: https://vimeo.com/352242548/38d4d6d9ed?utm_source=email&utm_medium=vimeo-cliptranscode-201504&utm_campaign=28749&fbclid=IwAR0ypWEpliZz65L2CPPhM6LDBe8cKi_6voXvUnVU_fX4ld0Uckt dkYy2EoQ

If you would like to go to the 13th ANNUAL CABIN AIR conference in London on 17/18 September 2019 https://www.aircraftcabinair.com/

Why would there be 13 conferences, if there was NO problem??

DB

[twb3]

I suspect that it's more muscle memory in a stressful situation that accounts for why so many pax attempt to evacuate with bags. Each and every other time they have exited an aircraft they took cabin bags with them, so it may not really be a conscious decision to grab the luggage.

In any case I would prefer the crew to be focused on completing the evacuation and not on docketing pax with bags for future punishment!

[milhouse999]

I think that so many of you are missing the point. If an aircraft suffers from smoke, fumes, mist or and other unannounced substance in the air then carry out the SMOKE AND FUMES Emergency drill.

If the front end put on their masks and declared an Emergency then why was that not carried out in the cabin. I would rather breath Oxygen for ten minutes as a precaution than be killed by some poisonous particles in the cabin air conditioning.

Saying that because no one was injured the cabin crew performed their job correctly is ridiculous.

I am assuming that the whole crew has been grounded pending a full investigation by BA and if need be by the CAA?


Completely agree with your post. Why was an immediate evacuation not declared upon landing, are the reports of 10 minutes sitting on the ground before getting off accurate? I've seen some pretty worrying cabin crew competence on BA flights over the years... but that's for another day. The number of suitcases being carried down the slide on that photo are also extremely worrying.

The current BA safety video detracts from the essential message it is trying to convey and should be scrapped - clear, concise messages are needed. Maybe the authorities need to work that into their regulations.

[er340790]

Remarkable. No-one has posted the VLC METAR yet...

And not one passenger has been quoted as "considering legal action".

I suspect that both will be along shortly! :E

[giggitygiggity]

remarkable. No-one has posted the vlc metar yet...

And not one passenger has been quoted as "considering legal action".

I suspect that both will be along shortly! :e

LEVC 051600z 470/89kt CAVOK 78/-51 Q851 NOSIG

[Dream Buster]

A BBC Panorama covered previous UK passenger legal action in 2008 - but they never told the public how it ended up.....I wonder why?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dsDznr4z5w

No evidence?

Errr...No.

DB

[Walnut]

i believe it was probably a pack failure they are located in the centre of the aircraft where the bang came from hence condensation mixed with a bit of oil
As the a/c did not depressurise no oxygen masks needed. Also as the a/c landed safelyI with no fire the crew took some time to decide whether to use the slides, as there use is not without risk.
Lets see what comes out of the investigation but I believe the flight crew handled this incident well

[A340Yumyum]

And the prize for the rudest person on this thread goes to you.

Easy to see why the two are similar for the reasons given.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_9pAXcWKm4


Not even vaguely similar in severity.

Stick to FS98, my friend.

[Dominator2]

giggitygiggity,

Thank you for your ranting and rather rude post. Yes, I am a pilot of 41 years experience and thankfully none completed in the commercial world. All of my flying career was spent as a Military Aviator defending Queen and Country. In the RAF we chose to protect our rear crew by providing over pressure/100% oxygen and masks. I was, therefore, educated by your discourteous answer to my post. Clearly, you are another who has been brain washed by the system?

I incorrectly assumed that the civilian sector provided better protection for it's passengers! I suspect that over the ages this is just another area where safety has been eroded? The financial imperative to reduce weight, reduce fuel burn, reduce costs against providing a safe environment to fly in. All very well for the pilots to safely land the aircraft but if all of the passengers are dead due to asphyxiation, then they have failed.

Thanks Milhouse999, for providing some reasoned sanity into the discussion. Once again this incident highlights a number of issue where Commercial Interest outweigh Flight Safety and common sense. When will the Regulators or the airlines sort out the mess that is too much luggage and other rubbish in the cabin. The hold is designed to carry luggage and that is where it should go. This would then significantly reduce the problems of bags during an evacuation.

Who will be the first to take the lead and enforce Flight Safety First?

[wiggy]

giggitygiggity,

Thank you for your ranting and rather rude post. Yes, I am a pilot of 41 years experience and thankfully none completed in the commercial world. All of my flying career was spent as a Military Aviator defending Queen and Country. In the RAF we chose to protect our rear crew by providing over pressure/100% oxygen and masks. I was, therefore, educated by your discourteous answer to my post. Clearly, you are another who has been brain washed by the system?

I incorrectly assumed that the civilian sector provided better protection for it's passengers! I suspect that over the ages this is just another area where safety has been eroded? The financial imperative to reduce weight, reduce fuel burn, reduce costs against providing a safe environment to fly in. All very well for the pilots to safely land the aircraft but if all of the passengers are dead due to asphyxiation

You're comparing apples with oranges, or in other words comparing a system designed to support the life of the stringently selected highly trained mortals who are potentially going to have to operate at high level whilst going to war verses a system that will support a member of the general population ( aged from babe in arms though to perhaps 100+ ) to survive long enough for the crew to take actions to improve the environment in the cabin.

Like me in my former life you probably enjoyed the delights of North Luffingham, aeromedical lectures and chamber runs, and were very familiar with '"the kit" because you used it everyday.

Compare and contrast with the training received by paying passengers in the commercial world... the passenger oxygen system needs to have masks that are extremely simple to don and operate..quickly... Even so there are videos/still images around of what passengers have managed to do in a crisis with simple masks when required to don them..(somebody will no doubt provide a link) ...I hate to think of the consequences of dropping them a pressure breathing type assembly.

[giggitygiggity]

giggitygiggity,
Thank you for your ranting and rather rude post. Yes, I am a pilot of 41 years experience and thankfully none completed in the commercial world. All of my flying career was spent as a Military Aviator defending Queen and Country. In the RAF we chose to protect our rear crew by providing over pressure/100% oxygen and masks. I was, therefore, educated by your discourteous answer to my post. Clearly, you are another who has been brain washed by the system?

I incorrectly assumed that the civilian sector provided better protection for it's passengers! I suspect that over the ages this is just another area where safety has been eroded? The financial imperative to reduce weight, reduce fuel burn, reduce costs against providing a safe environment to fly in. All very well for the pilots to safely land the aircraft but if all of the passengers are dead due to asphyxiation, then they have failed.

Who will be the first to take the lead and enforce Flight Safety First?

The rude tone was in response to what I interpreted as a rather rude and previous apportion of blame to the crew, which was based on assumption/incorrect info. I would have assumed that at some point you would had have seen the video/demo the of the oxygen mask onboard civil airliners, you can clearly see it isn't a forced pressure mask. Is the MRTT fitted with 250 forced oxygen masks for the troops? I don't wax lyrical about military flying because I haven't done it. Perhaps the same courtesy should be afforded towards us unlucky enough to be commercial pilots as obviously we need the sympathy.

I'm not sure what you mean by brainwashing? My biggest issue with people posting incorrect information is that this thread will undoutably be viewed by some enterprising Daily Mail journalist who will quote you verbatim and make the pilots look like rank amateurs: "One professional pilot asked why they didn't provide oxygen to the passengers, we're waiting for British Airways to give us a response"... In the age of the internet, misinformation is damaging (eg the damage done by one Twitter idiot today posting a picture of a lady sitting in a seat without a back onboard an easyjet flight. That spawned probably 20 articles from all the usual British news agencies within an hour.)

[DaveReidUK]

Also as the a/c landed safely with no fire the crew took some time to decide whether to use the slides, as there use is not without risk.

Time spent waiting/hoping in vain that they could get some steps to the aircraft while stopped on the RET, perhaps ?

[Dream Buster]

https://unitetheunion.org/media/2116/british-airways-plane1.jpg?anchor=center&mode=crop&width=1200&height=422&rnd=131880646030000000Unite calls for toxic cabin air inquiry after British Airways fume event - AGAIN....

Tuesday 6 August 2019

The UK and Ireland’s largest union, Unite today (Tuesday 6 August) called for an inquiry into toxic cabin air and fume events on board jet airliners following yesterday’s (Monday 5 August) fume event on British Airways flight BA422 from London Heathrow to Valencia.

Demanding health and safety guarantees from British Airways for its members, Unite pointed to an analysis by toxic cabin air campaigners (https://www.change.org/p/stop-contaminated-cabin-air-in-aircraft/u/24911820) that suggests the same plane involved in yesterday’s incident suffered two prior fume events in June leading to the aircraft being grounded.

The analysis of industry sources also suggests that were over 40 fume events in June this year (https://www.change.org/p/stop-contaminated-cabin-air-in-aircraft/u/24764402). Warning that this was just the tip of the ‘iceberg’ Unite called on the airline industry to ‘come clean’ over toxic cabin air and ‘clean up’ its act by using safer oil to lubricate jet engines and fitting cabin air filters on board planes.

Unite is currently supporting 51 high court actions against five UK airlines after independent expert evidence concluded that the air in most commercial airline cabins can cause irreversible neurological damage and chronic illness among susceptible individuals.

The union backed claims allege that expert medical evidence shows long term exposure to cabin air or to high dose ‘fume events’ can lead to pilots and crew members developing chronic ill health and life threatening conditions.

The expert evidence for the court, relied upon in the claims supported by Unite, reveals how fumes from jet engine bleed air used to pressurise airline cabins contains a mix of toxic compounds including organophosphates and TCP.

The 51 court cases involve pilots and cabin crew working for easyJet, British Airways, Thomas Cook, Jet2 and Virgin Atlantic. Unite is urging members involved in a fume event to get in touch and report it to its fume event register here (https://www.unitelegalservices.org/surveys/fume-event-register).

Commenting Unite assistant general secretary for legal affairs Howard Beckett said: “This latest fume event is deeply alarming. British Airways has some serious questions to answer regarding the safety of the aircraft, in addition to providing health and safety guarantees for our cabin crew members.

“Far too often fume events like these go unreported and are brushed under the carpet by the airline industry. This latest fume event only came to light because members of the media were on board the flight.

“The airline industry cannot continue to hide from the issue of toxic cabin air whilst placing the health and safety of aircrew at risk.

“Independent expert evidence concludes that air on board jet planes can contain a toxic mix of chemicals and compounds that potentially damage the nervous system and may lead to chronic irreversible health problems in susceptible individuals.

“We need a public inquiry into the extent of fume events and toxic cabin air. The airline industry must start to take responsibility and clean up the cabin air on jet planes.

“We would urge anyone involved in a fume event to log it on our fume event register.”

ENDS

For more information journalists only please contact [email protected] Unite head of media and campaigns on 020 3371 2066 or 07967 665869

Notes to editors:

Unite is Britain and Ireland’s largest union with members working across all sectors of the economy. The general secretary is Len McCluskey.


Read the full article here: https://unitetheunion.org/news-events/news/2019/august/unite-calls-for-toxic-cabin-air-inquiry-after-british-airways-fume-event/?fbclid=IwAR0_bbG0GIipFCBbGQliLFmondYhQKK_TqxNNuk6ou_lMoFBh3 8sNC_GdkY (https://unitetheunion.org/news-events/news/2019/august/unite-calls-for-toxic-cabin-air-inquiry-after-british-airways-fume-event/?fbclid=IwAR0_bbG0GIipFCBbGQliLFmondYhQKK_TqxNNuk6ou_lMoFBh3 8sNC_GdkY)

[R15RJJ]

My friend was on the plane with his family. From a passengers perspective it sounded terrifying. Whether or not the pilots did the right thing I’m far from qualified to say but he said the cabin crew abandoned ship first leaving the passengers to work it out for themselves which sounds disgraceful. He says an off duty BA cabin crew member travelling with their family took over the evacuation in the absence of the crew who got off first(not the flight deck crew, just the cabin crew).

I appreciate the plane was full of smoke and things happened fast but according to him this is 100% what happened, if so this sounds completely unacceptable.

[Shackeng]

Rant aside: Wonder what others would do, go straight to the Smoke/Fumes removal checklist as you realistically don't have time to run the identification checklist, or just focus 100% on landing ASAP?

The Swissair MD11 crash in '98 gives a clue.

[gearlever]

Sorry to revert to topic.
What's your first glance impression by pictures, vids?

- smoke
- haze
- fumes
- condensation

????

[Dream Buster]

Toxic Oil Smoke & Fumes.

BALPA London conference 21st April 2005: https://www.anstageslicht.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Geschichten/Aerotoxisches_Syndrom/BALPA-CAPC-London-2005_WINDER.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxwxzHMekb4

How embarrassing...

[Niallo]

Does anyone know of any type of breathing mask that a passenger could purchase and pack in their carry-on for when the cabin fills with smoke?

[rjtjrt]

Does anyone know of any type of breathing mask that a passenger could purchase and pack in their carry-on for when the cabin fills with smoke?

https://www.frontline-safety.co.uk/drager-parat-4720-escape-hood-soft-pack

[Ancient-Mariner]

I wonder what airport security would have to say on discovering a smoke hood in your bag? Somehow I feel that they would become suspicious...

[wiggy]

Does anyone know of any type of breathing mask that a passenger could purchase and pack in their carry-on for when the cabin fills with smoke?

I've not got time ATM to check the current regs but just be aware that if the smokehood uses chemical methods to generate breathing air (as many do) it's carriage on the aircraft may breach dangerous goods regulations..

Before anybody says " ah but what about " there are exemptions from those rules for certain items carried on board for crew use.

[vancouv]

My friend was on the plane with his family. From a passengers perspective it sounded terrifying. Whether or not the pilots did the right thing I’m far from qualified to say but he said the cabin crew abandoned ship first leaving the passengers to work it out for themselves which sounds disgraceful. He says an off duty BA cabin crew member travelling with their family took over the evacuation in the absence of the crew who got off first(not the flight deck crew, just the cabin crew).

I appreciate the plane was full of smoke and things happened fast but according to him this is 100% what happened, if so this sounds completely unacceptable.

I'm sure it was terrifying, but with respect to your friend I don't believe that's what happened - perhaps from his perspective it appeared that way in the, presumably, apparently rather chaotic scenes of the evacuation.

Oh, and I hope he didn't take his bags with him.

[flyems]

The Swissair MD11 crash in '98 gives a clue.

The Swissair MD11 wasn't 10 minutes from touchdown?

[esscee]

If the operating Cabin Crew left the aircraft prior to the passengers then those operating Cabin Crew ought to be sacked for dereliction of their duty.

[wiggy]

If the operating Cabin Crew left the aircraft prior to the passengers then those operating Cabin Crew ought to be sacked for dereliction of their duty.

A quick Google search for images of the event taken from inside the aircraft :ugh: shows that at least one door appeared to be manned by a uniformed Cabin Crew member during the evacuation, so maybe that "if", and the comment upthread that led to it needs to be put on hold for now or at least treated with a bit of scepticism.

[PaxBritannica]

I understood that some CC have to go ahead to be at the bottom of the slide? So you'd expect some of the CC to leap out first?

[wiggy]

I understood that some CC have to go ahead to be at the bottom of the slide?

That is not the SOP at BA - I suppose it might be elsewhere.

The CC may however, and if time permits, nominate/ask for volunteers from amongst the passengers to help at the bottom of the slide.

[PaxBritannica]

That is not the teaching at BA - it may be elsewhere.

The CC may however, and if time permits, nominate/ask for volunteers from amongst the passengers to help at the bottom of the slide.
Makes sense given how many slides there are, I suppose. But blimey - I've been down one of those slides (it was training, and there WAS a professional at the bottom) - and I think I'd have broken an ankle if someone hadn't gotten a hand to me.

[tubby linton]

I haven’t seen any reference to any specific odours associated with the fumes/smokes in any of the passengers reports.

[gearlever]

What is the FO role in an EVAC at BA?

[wiggy]

The generic answer would be that their prime role would be that of contributing to the actioning of the evac checklist on the flight deck, as required/detailed in Fleet SOPs. After that contribute to assisting in clearing the cabin as required/if possible.

[straightrecord]

hi all

I was on the flight and can help your questions:

1. We were already descending with crew strapped in when the smoke started to fill the cabin. I was in row 11 and there was one flight attendant on her own strapped in to the right facing row 10. When the smoke came in she got on the internal phone and told us she thought it was the A/C.

2. The thickness and speed of the loss of visibility were frightening. The “smoke” was not hot and it wasn’t like bonfire smoke. It smelt horrible enough for people to put their jumpers over their faces but we didn’t ever feel like we didn’t have oxygen. We were afraid that this would change and that the smoke would take over and we wouldn’t be able to breathe. The flight attendant was telling us to try to get our faces down low and we were shouting the message back to others. Because we didn’t have any announcements over the communication system with any explanation of what was going on people were afraid. The only info we had was from the flight attendant who was on the phone. She was visibly afraid but she was also on her own and trying to calm the guy facing her who was having a meltdown. The smoke was very thick but before we knew it we were on the ground. I don’t know what the smoke was but although it smelt horrible it didn’t leave our clothes or bags with a smell afterwards.

3. We landed and people jumped up and shouted “please open the doors”. The flight attendant near to me was trying to get her mask/suit out and on as quickly as possible. She did get it over her head but then for some reason threw it off. She couldn’t open the door straight away - after two or three minutes a light next to the door went on and a beep sounded and then she opened the door. My husband was by the opposite side emergency exit and he couldn’t open the door so he gave up. Once the slide inflated after the flight attendant opened her door we just instinctively jumped down onto it.

3. I was fourth out of the plane and the three people in front did not have their bags with them. It was the ones who piled our after who were carrying their luggage. People had time to grab their bags because the doors weren’t opened immediately and they were queuing to get off. By this time no one was choking, the doors were open and they just felt like it wasn’t an emergency ! I can clarify that I didn’t hear instructions from anyone telling people not to take their bags but I was off that plane like a shot !

4. I saw one or two fire engines and one fireman. I initially stood at the bottom along the slide to catch people but they flew past me so fast I couldn’t catch anyone ! The fireman came and took over !

5. We were directed straight to buses. And driven to the terminal. The cabin crew came down the slides after the last passengers. I spoke to them as they came off the slides. They were really shaken. I saw them come into the terminal nearly three hours later and they’d been out at the plane the whole time. When we were bussed back out to pick up our hand luggage hours later the pilot was till on the plane. The crew were very shaken and said that they had never gone through this in a real situation before and couldn’t believe that people Took bags down the slides. I asked why there wasn’t more instruction and they said that people are meant to follow what they’re told during the safety briefing.

6. The ground staff were ill equipped for the situation. We were brought into the terminal and had to explain why we didn’t have our passports. We all sat on an empty baggage carousel for three hours. The liaison lady came in from home and just kept saying that they were securing the plane so we could get our bags. We were brought boxes of water when we complained that we were hot and thirsty and deydrated. We should have been taken to an empty departure lounge with seats and been looked after properly really. When the flight attendants came through they were shocked to see us all there and they stopped to talk to me. One flight attendant called the pilot on his mobile and arranged for the turn around person to come into the terminal and help us. He arrived five minutes later and took us back to the plane 5 at a time to get our luggage. When we asked about the hold luggage they didn’t know how long it would be. Someone told us to go to customer services to leave our names but there was a mile long queue of people who were trying to get home given their flights were cancelled. My husband and I just left with our kids. We got our bags back by filing a missing luggage report. An exhausted courier arrived at 10pm the next night having delivered a lot of bags !

7. It’s taken two days to get a proper email from BA with a contact line for help over the trauma.

I hope that helps and maybe with this info someone can tell me what they think the smoke was

[MichaelKPIT]

That is not the SOP at BA - I suppose it might be elsewhere.

The CC may however, and if time permits, nominate/ask for volunteers from amongst the passengers to help at the bottom of the slide.

Thank you for clarification re BA SOP.

Per my post above, at USAirways the F/A would remain at the top of the slide "helping(!)" the psgrs on to it. Three helpers would be tapped on the shoulder and told to assist at the bottom. (If they wandered away then new designees would be voluntold to assist at the bottom.) I also know this to be the case at DL. It only makes sense for the professionals to be at the top of the slide, making sure the psgrs don't bottle out and refuse to slide.

[boaclhryul]

...odours associated with the fumes/smokes from any of the passengers.


Prolly 'cos the passengers weren't on fire.

[DaveReidUK]

I haven’t seen any reference to any odours associated with the fumes/smokes from any of the passengers.

The smoke was described as "acrid" in reports from the BBC and several of the dailies, as per my previous post.

[tubby linton]

The smoke was described as "acrid" in reports from the BBC and several of the dailies, as per my previous post.
You would be hard pushed to find any smoke that isn’t acrid. I was thinking more along the lines of the smelly sock/wet dog aroma

[Auxtank]

hi all

I was on the flight and can help your questions:

-----
I hope that helps and maybe with this info someone can tell me what they think the smoke was


Can you tell us if you saw anyone with any breathing problems at all?
Try and describe the smell as best you can (however ridiculous; like tangerines and diesel, etc) and the texture of the smoke; was it like steam, fog, dri-ice, etc.

I know you probably had a lot of other things on your mind at the time. Sorry you had this happen to you but I'm trying to nail down what it was.
Cheers.

[MichaelKPIT]

She couldn’t open the door straight away - after two or three minutes a light next to the door went on and a beep sounded and then she opened the door.

When I went through Airbus training (please keep in mind this was nearly 20 years ago - I've been out of the industry for a while) we were told this can happen if the cabin is still pressurized. We were to contact the flight deck to have them release the pressure then open the door. Does this still hold true?

[tdracer]

When I went through Airbus training (please keep in mind this was nearly 20 years ago - I've been out of the industry for a while) we were told this can happen if the cabin is still pressurized. We were to contact the flight deck to have them release the pressure then open the door. Does this still hold true?

I was thinking the same thing - it doesn't take much delta P to prevent you from opening the door (0.10 psi will usually do it). Perhaps in the rush to get the smoke filled aircraft on the ground, the flight crew missed a step?

[Auxtank]

Wonder if the skipper shouted to not open doors until ground Emergency Services has ascertained no external flames, etc?

There was a ground incident with SA a few years ago where the doors were kept Closed until external engine and wing fire had been extinguished.

Found it!
Interior pax shot footage begins at 1:09

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7h2JwPSS7I

[straightrecord]

Can you tell us if you saw anyone with any breathing problems at all?
Try and describe the smell as best you can (however ridiculous; like tangerines and diesel, etc) and the texture of the smoke; was it like steam, fog, dri-ice, etc.

I know you probably had a lot of other things on your mind at the time. Sorry you had this happen to you but I'm trying to nail down what it was.
Cheers.


It was thick and it smelt like exhaust fumes. At first I thought it was condensation but it was much more fume like. It was thick fog like smoke that was slightly yellow and hard to see through. It was like smoke from a smoke machine at a gig. People weren’t having trouble breathing but it smelt chemically and you instinctively put a jumper over your mouth to block
it out.

It def wasn’t like bonfire smoke. And as soon as we were off the plane the smell was gone. Our clothes and hair didn’t continue to smell but my husband said his throat hurt. I tried to attach a picture but couldn’t get it to work !

[RoyMunson]

I have on good authority that a bearing disintegrated within the left engine on descent. This caused various eng stall warnings and lead to gaseous engine oil being leaked into the cabin. That is what would cause the 'itchy' throat.

[physicus]

If incident frequency were taken into account, smoke hoods with effective VOC filters should be at every seat - more so than life vests! I used to travel with an evac-u8 smoke hood (both when flying as pax commercially and crew on small aircraft). But they got recalled in 2006 for not providing effective CO protection. I never found a viable alternative. Probably something that should be looked into, considering the extreme health hazard imposed by vaporised lubricants.

[Pinkman]

I have on good authority that a bearing disintegrated within the left engine on descent. This caused various eng stall warnings and lead to gaseous engine oil being leaked into the cabin. That is what would cause the 'itchy' throat.

The pictures show incredibly dense white smoke typical of finely dispersed oil particles and very different from the sooty particles you get with fire. I have been through the same as an unaccompanied minor on a VC 10 on take off from BAH when a seal popped on one of the Conways. We landed in Dharan and it took all day to fix but the scary memory of the burning choking smell is still vivid 50 years later. I've done the smoke emergency training at B.A. and the smoke canisters they use at S.E.P. while they give the smoke effect, are really benign compared to this probably for elphinsafety reasons. Surprised the AC didn't appear to have been isolated as a checklist item (appreciate the crew had their hands full). I expect this will ignite the TCP debate again...

[Dominator2]

I know that many of you still operate the Airbus can anyone tell us:

Is there an Emergency drill for Smoke/Fumes in the cabin? I assume that like most aircraft it is possible to depressurise the aircraft and isolate all sources of cabin conditioning?

As an interested passenger, there seem to be an increasing number of these incidents? I am aware that many go unreported. Interested in comment,

If incident frequency were taken into account, smoke hoods with effective VOC filters should be at every seat - more so than life vests!

Earlier in this thread it was stated,

The flight crew MUST be able to breathe clearly and for that they have positive pressure full face masks (looks like a firemans breathing aparatus or scuba if you're curious) as if they succumb to smoke, everyone dies. In the cabin, positive pressure masks are not practical, so they have a chemical oxygen generator. The chemical generator generates an incredible amount of heat and of course, oxygen (see ValuJet Flight 592 for details), and what fuels fires? If they generate more heat and more oxygen, they could easily worsen the situation - which is why it's not recommended. They are not pressurised masks, just supplementary oxygen that doesn't stop the user breathing in the external ambient smoke/fumes anyway.

Is this true, are we stating the the chemical oxygen generator is not fit for purpose as it is likely to catch fire if used?

[Atlantic Explorer]

Given the description of the event above, very disappointing to see Cabin Crew wandering around with no smoke hood on. Is that not a mandatory SOP when smoke in the cabin?

[wiggy]

Is this true, are we stating the the chemical oxygen generator is not fit for purpose as it is likely to catch fire if used?

The following is all an "as I understand it"

Oxygen generators are not likely to catch fire if used/stowed/maintained/transported correctly. The valujet accident that was referred to was caused in part by some of that not being done properly.

The generators used on some types for passenger oxygen mask use are tucked away out of harms way, somewhere they shouldn't get kicked or tampered with, and and will be subject to regular checks. There are also usually a limited number of crew smoke hoods on an aircraft; they have dedicated stowages (often in a rigid box), the condition of which is usually checked by the crew every crew change.

There are however potential problems if you allow an unknown number of these things in the cabin, possibly buried at the bottom of bags, possibly having been subject to packing damage, been dropped by security, been squeezed into tight space etc...then the risks of fire do start to go up.

The authorities have done risk vs. gain analysis and decided there are advantages to having a known small number, controlled use chemical generators on the aircraft, but there are risks to having them being brought on in an uncontrolled manner and in unknown numbers.

[DaveReidUK]

Is this true, are we stating the the chemical oxygen generator is not fit for purpose as it is likely to catch fire if used?

Yes they are fit for their intended purpose.

[wiggy]

Given the description of the event above, very disappointing to see Cabin Crew wandering around with no smoke hood on. Is that not a mandatory SOP when smoke in the cabin?




It may be but IMHO we need to be careful not to stray into vaguely "magenta line" territory ( as in "unthinking obedience to SOPs,")..

TBH there are times where sometimes crew have to think outside the box for the sake of everybodies safety...if in their judgement wearing a smoke hood could have seriously hampered efforts to observe/communicate/lead/open doors/evacuate passengers I'd personally cut the cabin crew some slack, certainly until I'd seen a full report on what they were dealing with.

[sooty655]

Given the description of the event above, very disappointing to see Cabin Crew wandering around with no smoke hood on. Is that not a mandatory SOP when smoke in the cabin?
No-where in the description is there any mention of the CC "wandering around". Is it really necessary to denigrate professionals who apparently performed well in order to make your point?

[Dominator2]

Can anyone answer the following,
Is there an Emergency drill for Smoke/Fumes in the cabin? I assume that like most aircraft it is possible to depressurise the aircraft and isolate all sources of cabin conditioning?

[wiggy]

I’m surprised you haven’t had a type specific answer but I’d hazard a guess there will be a type specific Smoke, Fumes, Fire Checklist..there will be one.

Whilst we are waiting generically they usually work through some form of fault finding, isolating in some sequence the likes of IFE, lighting, Galley electrics, A/C packs....If you are looking at needing into smoke removal then the checklist would probably demand a descent to a sensible altitude and then ventilation to the ambient atmosphere as appropriate and in a manner specific for the aircraft type, you wouldn’t ideally want to be depressurising at high level.

Fingers crossed someone will be along with the Airbus details shortly.

[Dominator2]

Of course, this incident occurred at low altitude (below 10,000 ft) so it would have been possible to depressurise immediately if reacquired?

Used to teach, if Smoke and Fumes occur at cruise altitude - commence a rapid descent. Once below 25,000 ft O2 masks on and depressurise. Continue descent to 10,000 ft or below?

Are any of these numbers still taught?

[wiggy]

Boeing document but it may help..

Flight Crew Response to In-Flight Smoke Fire or Fumes (https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/qtr_01_09/article_03_1.html)

As others have said, dropping pax masks are generally a "no no" - they don't seal, so don't protect from fumes, and because they are constant flow they "leak" pure oxygen into a cabin where worse case you may have a fire.

[dixi188]

Mk 1 Airbus (A300) - Smoke or Fumes in Flight Deck - O2 masks ON, One Pack OFF. Then the rest of the check list.
If it is Air Conditioning causing the problem then there's a 50:50 chance that you have cured the problem with one simple action.
This was a few years ago.
.

[WHBM]

6. The ground staff were ill equipped for the situation. We were brought into the terminal and had to explain why we didn’t have our passports …. We all sat on an empty baggage carousel for three hours … The liaison lady came in from home and just kept saying that they were securing the plane so we could get our bags … We were brought boxes of water when we complained that we were hot and thirsty and dehydrated.

These mishandlings of survivors have happened before and are completely unacceptable. One of the key things of the extensive Due Diligence that carriers like BA should be carrying out with handling agents at the spokes is going through, in fine detail, exactly what procedures they, and the airport operator, have for instant response in such events. Refreshments, immediate repatriation of baggage and personal possessions, etc. This includes how staff are trained and how often the exercises are practiced with the staff. BA will doubtless have a detailed template for such aspects, but an agent handling multiple carriers is better having a single set of procedures for any airline, as long as they incorporate all that BA have and beyond. It's not rocket science.

Immigration officials displaying a complete "know nothing" of those coming in from a major aircraft evacuation on their own airfield is somewhat beyond belief, but that one has happened before as well.

I just hope that the Alex Cruz version of BA Due Diligence for handling agent selection covers all of this, and has not been reduced to a one liner "who is the cheapest".

[edmundronald]

In Valencia people without a passport get to sit in the baggage area and served water. On an international flight into the US they'd get carted off to jail as undocumented immigrants / potential terrorists and have to wait for a few days in detention until consular services wake up and supply them with documentation - and then they'd have to get their credit card company to reissue cards without which they can't get around, and then find their kids wherever the system has put them as they'd have been taken away to a different place. No airline employee would venture to get in the way of Homeland and ICE who would have a field day protecting the nation from invasion.

I think this went rather well for an unplanned arrival - I wouldn't have complained: Healthy, on the ground, unhurt, and not in detention, in a safe environment. Europe has its good sides. Any flight you are allowed to walk away from is a good flight.

Edmund

[Espada III]

Hence the reason I always carry a small bag across my chest with passport, wallet, phone, charging cables etc to bring with me if I have to evacuate.

Family think I'm paranoid....

[FlightDetent]

Can anyone answer the following, What you, wiggy and Small Cog said is how it is played. Details available here, http://www.smartcockpit.com/docs/FCTM_A318_to_A321.pdf go to page 422.

If it is not evident from the read, the Smoke procedure is a troubleshooting / isolating exercise in the worst-case shutting large parts of the electrical system too. And it clearly says: Any time the present smoke itself becomes the greatest threat, apply immediately the SMOKE REMOVAL procedure. And that is down, slow, no packs and open the hull to ventilate.

The sentiment already mentioned that use of pax oxy generators is discouraged is shared AFAIK.

And this: http://www.smartcockpit.com/docs/A320-Smoke_A320.pdf

[WHBM]

In Valencia people without a passport get to sit in the baggage area and served water. On an international flight into the US they'd get carted off to jail as undocumented immigrants / potential terrorists and have to wait for a few days in detention until consular services wake up and supply them with documentation - and then they'd have to get their credit card company to reissue cards without which they can't get around, and then find their kids wherever the system has put them as they'd have been taken away to a different place. No airline employee would venture to get in the way of Homeland and ICE who would have a field day protecting the nation from invasion.
That's a ludicrous fiction. US DHS have a complete set of procedures for such an event (credit card absence is a different matter).

[straightrecord]

In Valencia people without a passport get to sit in the baggage area and served water. On an international flight into the US they'd get carted off to jail as undocumented immigrants / potential terrorists and have to wait for a few days in detention until consular services wake up and supply them with documentation - and then they'd have to get their credit card company to reissue cards without which they can't get around, and then find their kids wherever the system has put them as they'd have been taken away to a different place. No airline employee would venture to get in the way of Homeland and ICE who would have a field day protecting the nation from invasion.

I think this went rather well for an unplanned arrival - I wouldn't have complained: Healthy, on the ground, unhurt, and not in detention, in a safe environment. Europe has its good sides. Any flight you are allowed to walk away from is a good flight.

Edmund

it wasn’t exactly an unplanned arrival - we landed in the planned airport at the planned time ! We just didn’t have our passports because they were on the plane.

They were very very relaxed about the passports. No complaints there. Just a bit of care towards the elderly and those with small children would have been lovely. When you walk away from an emergency evacuation you don’t think “wow I’m so lucky to have escaped I feel like I want to sit on a carousel for hours without water”. You kind of want to be cared for until your senses come around from the shock and you want someone to help you sort yourself out.

[edmundronald]

That's a ludicrous fiction. US DHS have a complete set of procedures for such an event (credit card absence is a different matter).

They will let an alien walk out of the airport without an id? Tell me a funnier joke. I’m certain they have a procedure, it’s called undocumented immigrant detention and separation from your kids until they document you, and in case you read the news it’s being done a lot.

I’m certain that once they can document you from their own records they will be very friendly and release you,but if it’s a large flight and/or an airport without the appropriate personnel I guess you would spend a long time locked up. I’m not even certain you would be allowed consular assistance during this detention as technically speaking you have not entrered the US and have no rights.

Edmund

[WHBM]

They will let an alien walk out of the airport without an id? Tell me a funnier joke. I’m certain they have a procedure, it’s called undocumented immigrant detention and separation from your kids until they document you, and in case you read the news it’s being done a lot.
You are describing undocumented potential US immigrants trying to bust the system. Please quote from an arriving aircraft, with all on board pre-checked, which has had an emergency evac on the airfield, and let's not ruin this discussion about the Valencia incident with irrelevant nonsenses.

[edmundronald]

You are describing undocumented potential US immigrants trying to bust the system. Please quote from an arriving aircraft, with all on board pre-checked, which has had an emergency evac on the airfield, and let's not ruin this discussion about the Valencia incident with irrelevant nonsenses.

Well, concerning Valencia, I am quite surprised nobody went to hold the passenger's hands, get them some food/comfort. I mean I am genuinely surprised, not offended or outraged, something slipped through the cracks here, I would have assumed the airport management would step in.

Edmund

[Dream Buster]

Hi Brian,

Still looking forward to hearing BALPA's latest position on CAQ.

Thanks,

John

-----Original Message-----

From: Brian Strutton <[email protected]>

Sent: 10 June 2019 18:05

To: John Hoyte <[email protected]>

Subject: Your Letter

Hi John

I received your letter dated 6 June which will be carefully considered.

In the meantime can I please make it clear that BALPA does not give permission for the use of the conference paper you refer to or to any other use of BALPAs name or materials.

I will revert back to you in due course.

Best wishes

Brian

[Pacific Blue]

Straight record, it is highly likely you and your husband have been exposed to Organophosphates from the engine oil. To confirm if it is at a level in your blood stream you could get tested at a clinic in London upon your return called Biolab Medical Unit, an environmental medicine clinic. (I have no financial interest in this establishment by the way).

If you continue to have symptoms, respiratory or neurologically you could potentially claim for Aerotoxic damages against the airline, but it’s a long process.

Here are some links to educate yourselves on this issue which aircrew have been campaigning to prevent events like this happening. Airlines can fit filters but are in denial that it’s an issue worth spending the £10k per aircraft on. Profits before health it seems. DHL cargo airlines have fitted them on their aircraft so at least the mail and parcels are safe.

https://www.aerotoxic.org/

[atakacs]

No airline employee would venture to get in the way of Homeland and ICE who would have a field day protecting the nation from invasion.

I think this went rather well for an unplanned arrival - I wouldn't have complained: Healthy, on the ground, unhurt, and not in detention, in a safe environment. Europe has its good sides. Any flight you are allowed to walk away from is a good flight.
Edmund

I'm surprised you did not mention president Trump in your diatribe. You will definitely be inconvenienced if you have no passport with you (as in many other places) but you won't end in detention separated from your kids. Complete nonsense.

And let's try to keep it to the event at hand.

[carmel]

Does anyone know of any type of breathing mask that a passenger could purchase and pack in their carry-on for when the cabin fills with smoke?

I have an device called the Saver Emergency Breath System by Safety iQ. It's not a smoke hood so it doesn't offer any protection for your eyes, but it's designed to prevent smoke inhalation.

I had purchased it for when staying at hotels, but I also carry it on my person when flying as it filters chemical substances and removes carbon monoxide and toxic gases for up to 5 minutes.

[sabbasolo]

I have an device called the Saver Emergency Breath System by Safety iQ. It's not a smoke hood so it doesn't offer any protection for your eyes, but it's designed to prevent smoke inhalation.


Just curious - what do you carry to prevent injury in a car accident? The overall lifetime risks are dramatically greater than the risk of smoke inhalation in a hotel or aircraft.

[Ancient Mariner]

Just curious - what do you carry to prevent injury in a car accident? The overall lifetime risks are dramatically greater than the risk of smoke inhalation in a hotel or aircraft.
In a car, seat belts, add in airbags plus, plus, plus. There are companies that require that their employees carry smoke hoods when they travel for business and stays at hotels. This after one lost a number of people in a hotel fire.
Per

[WHBM]

Just a bit of care towards the elderly and those with small children would have been lovely. When you walk away from an emergency evacuation you don’t think “wow I’m so lucky to have escaped I feel like I want to sit on a carousel for hours without water”. You kind of want to be cared for until your senses come around from the shock and you want someone to help you sort yourself out.
I think we are very grateful to Mr (or Ms) Straightrecord for a first hand regular passenger account of being in an emergency evacuation, and all the collateral that happens (or, in this case, didn't happen). Airline top management commonly rely nowadays just on reports from the local management (such as they are) for how it went, and of course they are not going to write anything negative about themselves.

Alas I'm old enough to remember (probably when Alex Cruz was still in short trousers) the days when BA had a very firm plan should such a serious incident happen to one of their flights. Instantly it was whichever available managers, right up to directors, were first to an aircraft at Heathrow, generally it was to be one of the Shuttle Backup aircraft for immediate availability with crew, a pre-prepared set of stores and supplies loaded, and they were off to the location to supplement the local team. Now that we are all IAG, Madrid headquarters are less than an hour from Valencia. Did anybody from there go down ?

In passing, has Alex Cruz spoken or written personally, not PR department boilerplate word processing, to any of the affected passengers ?

[SLF3]

In Valencia people without a passport get to sit in the baggage area and served water. On an international flight into the US they'd get carted off to jail as undocumented immigrants / potential terrorists and have to wait for a few days in detention until consular services wake up and supply them with documentation - and then they'd have to get their credit card company to reissue cards without which they can't get around, and then find their kids wherever the system has put them as they'd have been taken away to a different place. No airline employee would venture to get in the way of Homeland and ICE who would have a field day protecting the nation from invasion.

I think this went rather well for an unplanned arrival - I wouldn't have complained: Healthy, on the ground, unhurt, and not in detention, in a safe environment. Europe has its good sides. Any flight you are allowed to walk away from is a good flight.

Edmund

After the BA engine fire in Houston the passengers were accommodated in the BA lounges until reunited with their luggage / passports, but were free to come and go from the lounge. They were then let back into the US with no immigration checks. They were let out of the US the next day even though they no longer had the little white piece of paper you used to have to hand in when you left. This is not anecdotal. I was one of them. It took a while (nearly 6 hours) but that was not surprising under the circumstances.

[Alwaysairbus]

Might have missed this but what was the cause of the smoke or vapour? Engine?

[straightrecord]

I think we are very grateful to Mr (or Ms) Straightrecord for a first hand regular passenger account of being in an emergency evacuation, and all the collateral that happens (or, in this case, didn't happen). Airline top management commonly rely nowadays just on reports from the local management (such as they are) for how it went, and of course they are not going to write anything negative about themselves.

Alas I'm old enough to remember (probably when Alex Cruz was still in short trousers) the days when BA had a very firm plan should such a serious incident happen to one of their flights. Instantly it was whichever available managers, right up to directors, were first to an aircraft at Heathrow, generally it was to be one of the Shuttle Backup aircraft for immediate availability with crew, a pre-prepared set of stores and supplies loaded, and they were off to the location to supplement the local team. Now that we are all IAG, Madrid headquarters are less than an hour from Valencia. Did anybody from there go down ?

In passing, has Alex Cruz spoken or written personally, not PR department boilerplate word processing, to any of the affected passengers ?

Hi - Madrid team arrived about 4 hours after the event and although we had gone by then ( we abandoned our luggage and decided to try and locate it the next day) those that stayed said the Madrid team were great and sorted people out with their luggage, accommodation, taxis etc. If the ground staff in Valencia had told us that a proper BA team were on their way we would have stayed and waited for them.

We’ve had a couple of emails that are boilerplate “we don’t underestimate the impact this has had on you ....” and offering us a counselling service. I also just went onto my app and noted we’ve been upgraded on the flight home next week !

[edmundronald]

After the BA engine fire in Houston the passengers were accommodated in the BA lounges until reunited with their luggage / passports, but were free to come and go from the lounge. They were then let back into the US with no immigration checks. They were let out of the US the next day even though they no longer had the little white piece of paper you used to have to hand in when you left. This is not anecdotal. I was one of them. It took a while (nearly 6 hours) but that was not surprising under the circumstances.

If I understand rightly you and all these passengers had embarked in the US.
What would be interesting would be the first person story of some passenger whose aircraft crashed on arrival and who lost their IDs in the crash.

Edmund

[ScotsSLF]

A replacement engine from RR was flown out in an AN-12 from PIK to Valencia yesterday and apparently returning to PIK with damaged engine for repair.

[slip and turn]

Threads like this importantly increase awareness and need to be kept on track. I regret that until now I had not really taken much notice of exactly what contaminant it was in the bleed air that it has been argued has caused death and disablement for too long amongst aircrew. I had previously assumed it was a problem with only a few aircraft types like BAe146. Evidently not so.

So I've just stumbled upon the following paper which discusses methods for measuring the risk of the same contaminant exposure to ground staff and technicians who are not even breathing bleed air but spend a lot of time in close proximity to the engines and/or the lubricants which routinely contain sometimes quite surprising levels of the toxic components (sometimes as high as 5%):

Exposure to airborne organophosphates originating from hydraulic and turbine oils among aviation technicians and loaders (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/47430643_Exposure_to_airborne_organophosphates_originating_f rom_hydraulic_and_turbine_oils_among_aviation_technicians_an d_loaders)

The paper also touches upon the purpose of the presence of these dodgy compounds in the first place which very simply put would appear to increase engine life perhaps a bit like lots of added lead (Pb) once did routinely in car fuel until the practice was severely curtailed. I appreciate that jet turbines are far more difficult to protect from wear than car engines, and I apologise if I have linked to an already well publicised paper known in these parts ...

[Smythe]

What would be interesting would be the first person story of some passenger whose aircraft crashed on arrival and who lost their IDs in the crash.


In the US, we would give them a home, a car, a job, and welfare for life.....

On the the smoke, pretty sure it was just the mind altering chemicals that all aircraft spray to make contrails, backing up into the intakes.