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View Full Version : Delta Airlines Flight DL-1425 ATL-BWI, MD-88, diverted to RDU due to engine failure


sporg
9th Jul 2019, 16:02
I'm surprised this isn't much in the news or in here at all:

From The Aviation Herald:
"A Delta Airlines McDonnell Douglas MD-88, registration N906DL performing flight DL-1425 from Atlanta,GA to Baltimore,MD (USA) with 154 people on board, was enroute at FL330 about 30nm northwest of Raleigh/Durham,NC (USA) when the crew decided to divert to Raleigh/Durham due to a problem with one of the engines (JT8D). The aircraft landed safely on runway 23R about 30 minutes later.
The airline reported the crew received indication of a possible engine issue and diverted to Raleigh/Durham. "

That sounds innocent enough, but the reason I'm checking in here is a Facebook video, apparently from one of the passengers, Becca Montouth, that seems to show the whole first stage turbine missing, and the spinner rumbling around in the casing?
Edit: Apparently not missing the fan, it sits behind the vanes on this engine.

Have anyone in here heard about this incident?

I'm not allowed to post links due to too few posts, but maybe one of you can look it up on AVHerald and also find Becca Montouth's video on Facebook?
(I'm also not placing a picture of her video, out of respect for her claim of licensing rights. But it looks like a pretty bad failure.)

misd-agin
9th Jul 2019, 16:57
I'm surprised this isn't much in the news or in here at all:

From The Aviation Herald:
"A Delta Airlines McDonnell Douglas MD-88, registration N906DL performing flight DL-1425 from Atlanta,GA to Baltimore,MD (USA) with 154 people on board, was enroute at FL330 about 30nm northwest of Raleigh/Durham,NC (USA) when the crew decided to divert to Raleigh/Durham due to a problem with one of the engines (JT8D). The aircraft landed safely on runway 23R about 30 minutes later.
The airline reported the crew received indication of a possible engine issue and diverted to Raleigh/Durham. "

That sounds innocent enough, but the reason I'm checking in here is a Facebook video, apparently from one of the passengers, Becca Montouth, that seems to show the whole first stage turbine missing, and the spinner rumbling around in the casing?

Have anyone in here heard about this incident?

I'm not allowed to post links due to too few posts, but maybe one of you can look it up on AVHerald and also find Becca Montouth's video on Facebook?
(I'm also not placing a picture of her video, out of respect for her claim of licensing rights. But it looks like a pretty bad failure.)

I saw the video. Bearings glowing red hot. Nose cone of the spinner bouncing around in the inlet like it's in the drawer on spin dry!

rog747
9th Jul 2019, 17:03
FB video here from Becca - https://www.facebook.com/becca.myown?eid=ARCY9G07-xVtcEaxPxSEhIS0M40xZXx3-r9vHmAaGiaavrhoC5OYtkm6MWzch_t7vpZKuYAuJX5F37Bu

Incident: Delta MD88 near Raleigh/Durham on Jul 8th 2019, engine problem (http://avherald.com/h?article=4ca251ec&opt=0)

It's running a little hot.
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/3ed4b625-eaf4-4352-a4da-4758eda371d2

TURIN
9th Jul 2019, 17:05
https://www.facebook.com/becca.myown/videos/2278478212221606/?t=0

Its on facebook. I don't theres any copyright issues.

that seems to show the whole first stage turbine missing

i think you mean compressor/fan.

sporg
9th Jul 2019, 17:16
<FB link>

Its on facebook. I don't theres any copyright issues.

i think you mean compressor/fan.

Yes, I do. And it might even not be missing, I looked up the engine and its fan sits behind the vanes.

About Facebook, I think you're right.
But taking a screenshot and posting here might be going too far, so I preferred to be on the safe side.
The problem was really that I couldn't provide the link itself, but rog747 helped with that, thanks. 👍

Airbubba
9th Jul 2019, 18:20
Here's a screen shot from the video by Becca Montouth:


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1059x1920/md_88edit_large__074e59ebf5d9806b744654a584ebebf11fc5b23f.jp g

Flightmech
9th Jul 2019, 18:56
https://www.facebook.com/becca.myown/videos/2278478212221606/?t=0

Its on facebook. I don't theres any copyright issues.



i think you mean compressor/fan.

Its a PW JT8D. The first stage is behind the fixed guide vanes. The spinner & cover including the N1 tacho seem to have "detached"

B2N2
9th Jul 2019, 19:18
Is it me or do people just have no survival instincts?
Just sit there and make a video?
MOVE!!!

lomapaseo
9th Jul 2019, 19:39
probably just ate some blue ice

Teevee
9th Jul 2019, 19:45
Is it me or do people just have no survival instincts?
Just sit there and make a video?
MOVE!!!

I'm only SLF but having watched the video what were the alternatives? Stepping outside doesn't appear to have been an option at that time.

clark y
9th Jul 2019, 20:00
I'd move ASAP. Just go forward. When these things let go, .060"/1.5mm (probably not even that in areas) of aluminium or an inch of perspex will not stop the shrapnel.

cappt
9th Jul 2019, 20:11
Definitely be moving away from that thing, at least a couple more rows forward.

MichaelKPIT
9th Jul 2019, 20:16
I'd move ASAP. Just go forward. When these things let go, .060"/1.5mm (probably not even that in areas) of aluminium or an inch of perspex will not stop the shrapnel.
As indeed it didn't in PNS on flight 1288 almost exactly 23 years ago!

OldnGrounded
9th Jul 2019, 20:32
I'd move ASAP. Just go forward. When these things let go, .060"/1.5mm (probably not even that in areas) of aluminium or an inch of perspex will not stop the shrapnel.

Yes, but relatively few pax will appreciate either that an uncontained failure may be imminent or what the consequences of such failure are likely to be.

First IFE
9th Jul 2019, 20:39
Well, this is interesting. I was a million plus passenger, am an aerospace engineer, and am around military flight operations all the time, so feel like I fully understand the implications. That is definitely scarier that I thought sitting in my seat trying to explain what I thought was going on to passengers around me up in the front of the aircraft; ignorance is bliss. Thanks for posting the pictures. Have been looking for info and refuse to get a facebook account to look at the video the young lady posted. Thanks for the posting.

lomapaseo
9th Jul 2019, 20:55
If you are around to film it, it's perfectly safe (like thunder and lightning)

tdracer
9th Jul 2019, 22:05
"Moving" assumes there is someplace else to move to. Most domestic flights in the US have few if any unoccupied seats these days.

capngrog
9th Jul 2019, 22:58
Most passengers would not be aware of the danger associated with the potential for the uncontained failure of a jet engine; however, the crew certainly should be. Although there may not be open seats available, I would think that the cabin crew could relocate passengers seated near the failing engine until that engine could be shut down. An uncontained failure of a fuselage pylon-mounted engine would probably throw shrapnel into the cabin area.

It has happened before.

An uncontained engine failure occurred at Pensacola Regional Airport (PNS) on July 06, 1996 during the takeoff run of Delta Airlines Flight 1288. Two passengers (a mother and her son) were killed when the compressor hub of the No.1 engine (P&W JT8D) failed, hurling debris (shrapnel) into the cabin. The failure occurred early in the takeoff roll, and the aircraft was safely stopped on the runway. There was no ensuing fire.

Here's a link to the NTSB report: https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR9801.pdf

Grog

MichaelKPIT
10th Jul 2019, 02:31
Most passengers would not be aware of the danger associated with the potential for the uncontained failure of a jet engine; however, the crew certainly should be. Although there may not be open seats available, I would think that the cabin crew could relocate passengers seated near the failing engine until that engine could be shut down. An uncontained failure of a fuselage pylon-mounted engine would probably throw shrapnel into the cabin area.

It has happened before.

An uncontained engine failure occurred at Pensacola Regional Airport (PNS) on July 06, 1996 during the takeoff run of Delta Airlines Flight 1288. Two passengers (a mother and her son) were killed when the compressor hub of the No.1 engine (P&W JT8D) failed, hurling debris (shrapnel) into the cabin. The failure occurred early in the takeoff roll, and the aircraft was safely stopped on the runway. There was no ensuing fire.

Here's a link to the NTSB report: https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR9801.pdf

Grog
A friend of a friend was crew on that one. Awful!

Check Airman
10th Jul 2019, 03:37
Is it me or do people just have no survival instincts?
Just sit there and make a video?
MOVE!!!

Unfortunately, nowadays the first thing people do when something unusual happens is take out their phones.

Airmotive
10th Jul 2019, 04:15
This seems an appropriate spot for the ubiquitous-yet-brilliant “The front fell off” video clip...

Uplinker
10th Jul 2019, 05:07
Can anyone tell me why the area behind the spinner, now revealed, is glowing orange hot?

Bearing break up leading to detachment of the spinner?

pocker pipty
10th Jul 2019, 06:56
This section contains an oil pump/gears so woill be quite warm

lomapaseo
10th Jul 2019, 13:13
Can anyone tell me why the area behind the spinner, now revealed, is glowing orange hot?

Bearing break up leading to detachment of the spinner?

other way around

BRE
10th Jul 2019, 13:28
Well, at that point, the flight crew would have reduced to idle, wouldn't they? So not much risk of an uncontained failure?

First IFE
10th Jul 2019, 13:49
Based on my memory, the aircrew went to idle on that engine a couple minutes before the "bang". I was checking my watch thinking they had pushed their speed since we were a little late getting out of Atlanta, going to my phone to see estimated flight time (no Flight Tracker on the MD88), and had started initial decent. When the bang happened, I kind of forgot all that. So, wait for the report, but my guess is they got a warning, pulled to idle, were running the checklist for the indication when it happened. The good news is that all the parts should be available for P&W to do their teardown and get to root cause.

Mk 1
10th Jul 2019, 13:55
This seems an appropriate spot for the ubiquitous-yet-brilliant The front fell off video clip...
Brilliant! Vale John Clarke. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m5qxZm_JqM

Webby737
10th Jul 2019, 14:26
Brilliant! Vale John Clarke. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m5qxZm_JqM
Thanks for that !
Never seen that before, fantastic !

EEngr
10th Jul 2019, 15:31
If you are around to film it, it's perfectly safe (like thunder and lightning)
This is a good point. Although I wouldn't expect the average SLF to understand the risks, the engine appears to be windmilling at this point. The initial incident which occurred while under power is over and additional uncontainment will probably be low energy. Also, if I'm far enough forward of the cowling to look/photograph inside the engine, that's probably far enough away to be missed by flying bits.

lomapaseo
10th Jul 2019, 17:30
Based on my memory, the aircrew went to idle on that engine a couple minutes before the "bang". I was checking my watch thinking they had pushed their speed since we were a little late getting out of Atlanta, going to my phone to see estimated flight time (no Flight Tracker on the MD88), and had started initial decent. When the bang happened, I kind of forgot all that. So, wait for the report, but my guess is they got a warning, pulled to idle, were running the checklist for the indication when it happened. The good news is that all the parts should be available for P&W to do their teardown and get to root cause.

Did you see a blue streak down the left side of the aircraft after you got off

First IFE
10th Jul 2019, 17:38
Did you see a blue streak down the left side of the aircraft after you got off
Ah, didn't really look. Not something I would have thought to look for since this all happened at cruise altitude. Are you implying a plane above dropped "blue ice" and we just miraculously sucked it in? That's pretty remote...

tdracer
10th Jul 2019, 20:40
Ah, didn't really look. Not something I would have thought to look for since this all happened at cruise altitude. Are you implying a plane above dropped "blue ice" and we just miraculously sucked it in? That's pretty remote...

No, there have been documented cases of blue ice (the result of a leaky lav dump valve) releasing and being ingested into the engine (on the same aircraft). More of a risk with aft mounted engines than with wing mounted engines, although there were a few incidents with 737 Jurassics (-100/200).
There was a rather famous event on a 727 - I'm going to say around 1970 but I could be off a few years. Anyway, blue ice ingestion cause the engine to seize - by design the engine mount failed (the loads when an engine rotor seizes at speed are tremendous, so the mount was designed to fail to prevent more serious airframe damage) and they dropped the engine into a field 30,000 ft. below.

lomapaseo
10th Jul 2019, 21:22
...a few incidents with 737 Jurassics (-100/200).
I think u meant 727

the only 737s involved were -300 (still extremely rare for wing engines)

The problem was mostly corrected when they changed out the type of dump valve to something that wouldn't clog as easily with nappies and coathangers. We couldn't mandate the valve but chose instead to mandate the aircraft servicing with the old valve to something that was difficult to perform (of course I don't know what happened about this one :)

MurphyWasRight
10th Jul 2019, 23:07
Did you see a blue streak down the left side of the aircraft after you got off
I have to admit my inner 13 year old mind read that as "brown streak", which would have more to do with the captains reaction :O

tdracer
10th Jul 2019, 23:23
I think u meant 727

the only 737s involved were -300 (still extremely rare for wing engines)


Oops, yes, I stand corrected - it was the 737-300, (e.g. "Classics", not "Jurassic"). I did some work on one not long after it had experienced a blue ice event (unrelated throttle cable issues) and experienced a memory fart :rolleyes:
The flow changes around the wing when they put the CFM56-3 engines on the 737 had some unexpected side effects.

B2N2
10th Jul 2019, 23:57
Most passengers would not be aware of the danger associated with the potential for the uncontained failure of a jet engine; however, the crew certainly should be. Although there may not be open seats available, I would think that the cabin crew could relocate passengers seated near the failing engine until that engine could be shut down. An uncontained failure of a fuselage pylon-mounted engine would probably throw shrapnel into the cabin area.

It has happened before.

An uncontained engine failure occurred at Pensacola Regional Airport (PNS) on July 06, 1996 during the takeoff run of Delta Airlines Flight 1288. Two passengers (a mother and her son) were killed when the compressor hub of the No.1 engine (P&W JT8D) failed, hurling debris (shrapnel) into the cabin. The failure occurred early in the takeoff roll, and the aircraft was safely stopped on the runway. There was no ensuing fire.

Here's a link to the NTSB report: https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR9801.pdf

Grog

Exactly this ^^^
its not going to be my body that plugs the hole.

I must look like a complete fool to other passengers when I travel commercially:

Saniwipe my seat
Wear my seat belt
pay attention to the FA briefing
do not sit next to an engine

Had a fellow pax ask me if I was scared of flying.
i said no Im a pilot......and Im rated on this type.

lomapaseo
11th Jul 2019, 00:03
..........Had a fellow pax ask me if I was scared of flying.
i said no Im a pilot......and Im rated on this type.

Yea, you get to sit up front where you are protected from engine missiles by regulation ... course we need you to get us back on the ground :)

First IFE
11th Jul 2019, 00:38
At this point, just enjoying the posts. Having a glass of wine and prepping to get back on another MD88...which is safer than driving to work...

B2N2
11th Jul 2019, 01:01
Yea, you get to sit up front where you are protected from engine missiles by regulation ... course we need you to get us back on the ground :)

Other story.
Travelling commercially in uniform, feels asleep mouth open snore kinda thing.
Woke up, pax next to me politely let me know that theyd gone through turbulence and everybody was looking at the pilot asleep and if I didnt wake up it was probably ok.

nonsense
11th Jul 2019, 13:33
Unfortunately, nowadays the first thing people do when something unusual happens is take out their phones.

And everyone carries a camera-phone, yet still no decent photos of little green men or the Loch Ness monster!
Jokes aside, at least there's a good chance of finding some sort of video evidence following just about any interesting event nowdays.

misd-agin
14th Jul 2019, 16:23
No, there have been documented cases of blue ice (the result of a leaky lav dump valve) releasing and being ingested into the engine (on the same aircraft). More of a risk with aft mounted engines than with wing mounted engines, although there were a few incidents with 737 Jurassics (-100/200).
There was a rather famous event on a 727 - I'm going to say around 1970 but I could be off a few years. Anyway, blue ice ingestion cause the engine to seize - by design the engine mount failed (the loads when an engine rotor seizes at speed are tremendous, so the mount was designed to fail to prevent more serious airframe damage) and they dropped the engine into a field 30,000 ft. below.

TD - I know of two events - one in 1985(+/-) and one later. The second one was on a north/south route ORD/MSP/DFW towards FL??? The 1985 event was DFW(?) to SAN. The engine came off near El Paso. I had the FE CKA as a CKA in training about 30 yrs afterwards. Flying with a new FE so he was riding the jumpseat. He said the engine gauges died so they assumed a frozen engine. No vibration. He walked to the back of the 727 and spoke with the F/A's and also to check on noise or vibration. There was none. He tried looking at the windows but it was very scratched and basically unusable. All indications support a frozen engine theory. They continue on two engines to SAN. On taxi in SAN ground says "where'd you lose the engine?" Near El Paso. Ground asks "did it hit anyone?" Huh!!??!??! That was the first clue that things might be different than they're thinking. Walked around the nose of the airplane and looked back - engine's gone.

Airbubba
14th Jul 2019, 17:05
Here's an article about the 1985 American engine separation with a reference to the earlier 1974 National incident which was also near ELP.

National Airlines lore says that the flight attendant came running to the cockpit and said 'we've lost an engine!' One of the pilots said, 'yeah, we know, we're shutting it down'. The F/A said 'no you're not, the f***ing engine fell off!' Years later I flew N4736 out of TXL with another carrier not knowing its engine history.

ICE BLAMED IN LOSS OF JETLINER`S ENGINE

Gary Washburn, Transportation writer
CHICAGO TRIBUNE

April 18, 1985

Airline industry sources theorized Wednesday that a large chunk of ice that formed on the fuselage of an American Airlines (https://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/business/transportation-industry/air-transportation-industry/american-airlines-PLENT000002-topic.html) Boeing (https://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/business/manufacturing-engineering/aerospace-manufacturing/boeing-ORCRP017215-topic.html) 727 crashed into one of the plane`s engines, causing the 3,000-pound device to plunge to the ground.

The jet, with 90 people aboard, was flying Tuesday from Dallas-Ft. Worth International Airport to San Diego`s Lindbergh Field when the incident occurred. The plane landed safely in San Diego about 45 minutes later with no injuries.

A drain connected to a lavatory is on the forward portion of the right fuselage of 727s and water is supposed to evaporate as it flows out, sources said. But sometimes the water turns to ice, which builds in size.

After becoming too heavy to adhere to the plane`s surface, sources speculated, the ice chunk broke off, flying rearward into an engine located near the tail on the side of the fuselage.Spokesmen for Boeing Commercial Airplane Co. said that bolts connecting the two fuselage engines on the three-engine 727 are designed to shear ''under certain conditions'' so that damage is minimized and the plane`s ability to fly is not impaired.

Tom Cole, a Boeing spokesman, said an ''engine seizure'' or abrupt stop would create a ''tremendous torque or wrenching effect'' capable of breaking off the connecting bolts.

An engine seizure could be caused by ingestion of foreign material, Boeing officials said.

If bolts did not have the ability to shear, the engine could take a portion of the fuselage with it before falling off the plane, Cole said.According to unconfirmed reports, the engine that separated from the American jet was found on the ground near Denim [sic - probably Deming - Airbubba], N.M., at about noon Chicago time Wednesday. Investigators from the National Transportation Safety Board (https://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/politics-government/government/government-departments/national-transportation-safety-board-ORGOV000319-topic.html) were investigating the incident.

Recalling the loud noise and violent shaking that accompanied the engine loss, passenger John N. Smith said, ''I thought I was dead.''

Smith, of El Centro, Calif., said he was finishing his onboard lunch of chicken Mexicana, Spanish rice and string beans at the time of the incident.

''I thought, `What a terrible last meal.` . . . I figured I had three minutes to live, so I ought to enjoy it,'' he said. ''I finished my chocolate brownie and milk.''

Smith said that passengers spent the remainder of the flight ''listening for any strange noises.''

Another passenger, Audrey Ward, said, ''There was a tremendous explosion

--it was like a great big bang--and the whole plane just shuddered violently.

''The lights all came on and the (oxygen) masks started dropping down. My first impression was that we had hit another airplane.''

Industry sources said that ice ingestion was responsible for the separation of an engine on a National Airlines 727 over El Paso, Tex., in 1974. After discovering the cause, federal officials ordered a redesign of the drain to prevent a reoccurrence.

An airline industry official, who believes ice caused Tuesday`s incident, said investigators probably will seek to determine whether the modification was not effective or whether it was not made on the American plane.

Cole said that 727s are able to fly with only two engines in operation.

The pilot and crew of the American plane, Flight 199, knew that one of the craft`s engines had failed but were unaware it had fallen off until inspecting the craft after landing in San Diego, airline officials said.

At the time of the incident, ''the captain went through the normal procedure to cut power to that engine and the airplane continued to function normally in all respects, '' said Joe Stroop, an American spokesman. ''In the captain`s judgment, it was safe to continue on to San Diego.''

The captain told the passengers that there was an engine problem but no one on the plane knew the engine was gone, Stroop said.






From the NTSB archives:

National Transportation Safety Board Aviation Incident Final Report

Location: LAS CRUCES, NM Incident Number: LAX85IA206
Date & Time: 04/16/1985, 1137 MST
Registration: N718AA
Aircraft: BOEING 727-227
Aircraft Damage: Minor Defining Event: Injuries: 89 None Flight Conducted Under: Part 121: Air Carrier - Scheduled

Analysis
WHILE CRUISING AT FLT LEVEL 350 IN CLEAR SMOOTH AIR, A LOUD NOISE WAS HEARD, ACCOMPANIED BY A SEVERE JOLT ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE CABIN, AS THE NUMBER 3 END SEPARATED FROM ITS MOUNTS. SUBSEQUENT INVESTIGATION DISCLOSED THAT THE FORWARD LAVATORY WAS LEAKING DEODORANT FLUID AND WATER. DEODORANT STAINS EXISTED ALONG THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE FUSELAGE, & WERE SUBSEQUENTLY IDENTIFIED ON THE NUMBER 3 ENGINE NOSE COWL & INLET NOSE CONE. ALL BUT 6 OF THE FIRST STAGE FAN BLADES WERE RECOVERED AT THE ENG IMPACT SITE, & THESE 6 BLADES WERE LOCATED WITHIN A 180 DEGREE SEGMENT OF THE FAN. LEAKAGE OF THE LAVATORY WASTE DRAIN VALVE WAS THE RESULT OF A DAMAGED 'O' RING SEAL. LEAKAGE OF THE DUMP VALVE WAS THE RESULT OF DISBONDING OF A RUBBER BOOT ON ITS SHAFT.

Probable Cause and Findings
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this incident to be:
Findings
Occurrence #1: AIRFRAME/COMPONENT/SYSTEM FAILURE/MALFUNCTION Phase of Operation: CRUISE - NORMAL
Findings 1. (C) WATER AND WASTE SYSTEM - LEAK 2. (F) MAINTENANCE,SERVICE BULLETIN/LETTER - NOT ISSUED - MANUFACTURER 3. (F) INSUFFICIENT STANDARDS/REQUIREMENTS,MANUFACTURER - MANUFACTURER 4. (F) FLUID,WATER - FROZEN 5. (F) WEATHER CONDITION - TEMPERATURE EXTREMES ---------
Occurrence #2: ENGINE TEARAWAY Phase of Operation: CRUISE - NORMAL
Findings 6. (F) ENGINE ASSEMBLY - SEPARATION 7. (F) ENGINE INSTALLATION,SUSPENSION MOUNTS - OVERLOAD

Factual Information
Pilot Information Certificate: Airline Transport Age: 49, Male Airplane Rating(s): Multi-engine Land Seat Occupied: Left Other Aircraft Rating(s): None Restraint Used: Seatbelt, Shoulder harness Instrument Rating(s): Airplane Second Pilot Present: Yes Instructor Rating(s): None Toxicology Performed: No Medical Certification: Class 1 Valid Medical--w/ waivers/lim. Last FAA Medical Exam: 11/19/1984 Occupational Pilot: Last Flight Review or Equivalent: Flight Time: 12470 hours (Total, all aircraft), 6762 hours (Total, this make and model), 124 hours (Last 90 days, all aircraft), 3 hours (Last 24 hours, all aircraft)

Aircraft and Owner/Operator Information Aircraft Make: BOEING Registration: N718AA Model/Series: 727-227 727-227 Aircraft Category: Airplane Year of Manufacture: Amateur Built: No Airworthiness Certificate: Transport Serial Number: 20611 Landing Gear Type: Retractable - Tricycle Seats: 162 Date/Type of Last Inspection: 04/15/1985, AAIP Certified Max Gross Wt.: 178000 lbs Time Since Last Inspection: 5 Hours Engines: 3 Turbo Fan Airframe Total Time: 36704 Hours Engine Manufacturer: P&W ELT: Not installed Engine Model/Series: JT8D-9A Registered Owner: AMERICAN AIRLINES, INC. Rated Power: 14500 lbs Operator: AMERICAN AIRLINES, INC. Operating Certificate(s) Held: Flag carrier (121)

Meteorological Information and Flight Plan Conditions at Accident Site: Visual Conditions Condition of Light: Day Observation Facility, Elevation: DMN, 4309 ft msl Distance from Accident Site: 30 Nautical Miles Observation Time: 1150 MST Direction from Accident Site: 272 Lowest Cloud Condition: Scattered / 8000 ft agl Visibility 60 Miles Lowest Ceiling: Broken / 12000 ft agl Visibility (RVR): 0 ft Wind Speed/Gusts: 6 knots / Turbulence Type Forecast/Actual: / Wind Direction: 230 Turbulence Severity Forecast/Actual: / Altimeter Setting: 30 inches Hg Temperature/Dew Point: 28C / -2C Precipitation and Obscuration: Departure Point: DALLAS-FT WORTH, TX (DFW) Type of Flight Plan Filed: IFR Destination: SAN DIEGO, CA (SAN) Type of Clearance: IFR Departure Time: 1025 MST Type of Airspace: Class E

Airport Information Airport: LAS CRUCES (LRU) Runway Surface Type: Airport Elevation: 0 ft Runway Surface Condition: Runway Used: 0 IFR Approach: None Runway Length/Width: VFR Approach/Landing: None
Wreckage and Impact Information Crew Injuries: 8 None Aircraft Damage: Minor Passenger Injuries: 81 None Aircraft Fire: None Ground Injuries: N/A Aircraft Explosion: None Total Injuries: 89 None Latitude, Longitude:

Administrative Information Investigator In Charge (IIC): A L CRAWFORD Adopted Date: Additional Participating Persons: WARREN V WANDEL; FORT WORTH, TX R. J HIGHTOWER; TULSA, OK DON HOLLIMAN; TX

Publish Date: Investigation Docket: NTSB accident and incident dockets serve as permanent archival information for the NTSB’s investigations. Dockets released prior to June 1, 2009 are publicly available from the NTSB’s Record Management Division at [email protected], or at 800-877-6799. Dockets released after this date are available at http://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/.

The NTSB entry for the National incident:

NTSB Identification: FTW74IF07714 CFR Part 121 Scheduled operation of NATIONAL AIRLINES INCAircraft: BOEING 727, registration: N4736----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FILE DATE LOCATION AIRCRAFT DATA INJURIES FLIGHT PILOT DATA
F S M/N PURPOSE
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4-0007 74/4/30 NR.SIERRA BLANCA,TEX BOEING 727 CR- 0 0 8 SCHED DOM PASSG SRV AIRLINE TRANSPORT, AGE
TIME - 1710 N4736 PX- 0 0 89 53, 13429 TOTAL HOURS,
DAMAGE-MINOR OT- 0 0 0 4002 IN TYPE, INSTRUMENT
RATED.
CLASSIFIED AS INCIDENT
OPERATOR - NATIONAL AIRLINES,INC
DEPARTURE POINT INTENDED DESTINATION LAST ENROUTE STOP
SAN DIEGO,CALIF MIAMI,FLA NEW ORLEANS,LA
TYPE OF ACCIDENT PHASE OF OPERATION
ENGINE FAILURE OR MALFUNCTION IN FLIGHT: NORMAL CRUISE
ENGINE TEARAWAY IN FLIGHT: NORMAL CRUISE
PROBABLE CAUSE(S)
PERSONNEL - MAINTENANCE,SERVICING,INSPECTION: IMPROPERLY SERVICED AIRCRAFT (GROUND CREW)
INSTRUMENTS/EQUIPMENT AND ACCESSORIES - MISCELLANEOUS EQUIPMENT: OTHER
MISCELLANEOUS ACTS,CONDITIONS - IMPROPERLY SECURED
MISCELLANEOUS ACTS,CONDITIONS - LEAK/LEAKAGE
POWERPLANT - MISCELLANEOUS: FOREIGN OBJECT DAMAGE
POWERPLANT - ENGINE STRUCTURE: MOUNT AND VIBRATION ISOLATORS
MISCELLANEOUS ACTS,CONDITIONS - OVERLOAD FAILURE
FACTOR(S)
MISCELLANEOUS ACTS,CONDITIONS - SEPARATION IN FLIGHT
COMPLETE POWER LOSS - COMPLETE ENGINE FAILURE/FLAMEOUT-1 ENGINE
EMERGENCY CIRCUMSTANCES - PRECAUTIONARY LANDING ON AIRPORT
SUSPECTED OR KNOWN AIRCRAFT DAMAGE
REMARKS- FLUID LK FM R FWD LAV TANK DRAIN DONUT PLUG.IMPACT DMG R LDG LT,HUMAN WASTE ON #3 ENG NOSE CONE.


Full narrative is not available

misd-agin
14th Jul 2019, 17:14
AIrbubba - thanks. That's the incident I was describing. The other incident I remembered was 1990. NW 727 enroute from MIA to MSP.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_5

Northwest Airlines Flight 5 was a flight from Miami International Airport (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_International_Airport) to Minneapolis−Saint Paul International Airport (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minneapolis%E2%88%92Saint_Paul_International_Airport), which, on January 4, 1990, suffered the loss of the number three (starboard) engine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_engine_position_number) at 35,000 feet (11,000 m) in mid-flight over Madison, Florida (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madison,_Florida).[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_5#cite_note-NYT1-2)

The Boeing 727-251 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_727), operated by Northwest Airlines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines), took off from Miami at 08:15 EST (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Time_Zone) on the morning of January 4, 1990. About an hour later, at approximately 09:10 EST, the pilots reported hearing a loud bang towards the rear of the aircraft.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_5#cite_note-NYT1-2) The 14-year-old jet continued to fly normally and the crew, not knowing that an engine had fallen off,[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_5#cite_note-NYT2-3) flew for almost 50 minutes before carrying out a safe emergency landing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_landing) at Tampa International Airport (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampa_International_Airport) at 09:58 EST.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_5#cite_note-SPT-4) The engine, a Pratt & Whitney (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney) JT8D-15 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney_JT8D), was found a day later in a field near Madison, Florida (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madison,_Florida).[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_5#cite_note-SPT-4)

After landing, inspection crews found the forward lavatory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_lavatory) external seal was missing and had probably been improperly installed, causing a leakage when the plane was pressurized. The missing seal caused frozen chunks of lavatory fluid to be ingested by the number three engine thus damaging the compressor blades.[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_5#cite_note-NTSB1-5) Upon failure the engine separated from the aircraft fuselage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuselage), as it had been designed to do.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_5#cite_note-NYT1-2)

The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Transportation_Safety_Board) determined the probable cause of the incident to be "the failure of company service personnel to properly service the airplane forward lavatory."[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_5#cite_note-NTSB1-5)

Euclideanplane
14th Jul 2019, 18:05
Northwest Airlines Flight 5 was a flight from Miami International Airport (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_International_Airport) to Minneapolis−Saint Paul International Airport (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minneapolis%E2%88%92Saint_Paul_International_Airport), which, on January 4, 1990, suffered the loss of the number three (starboard) engine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_engine_position_number) at 35,000 feet (11,000 m) in mid-flight over Madison, Florida (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madison,_Florida).[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_5#cite_note-NYT1-2)

The Boeing 727-251 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_727), operated by Northwest Airlines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines), took off from Miami at 08:15 EST (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Time_Zone) on the morning of January 4, 1990. About an hour later, at approximately 09:10 EST, the pilots reported hearing a loud bang towards the rear of the aircraft.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_5#cite_note-NYT1-2) The 14-year-old jet continued to fly normally and the crew, not knowing that an engine had fallen off,[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_5#cite_note-NYT2-3) flew for almost 50 minutes before carrying out a safe emergency landing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_landing) at Tampa International Airport (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampa_International_Airport) at 09:58 EST.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_5#cite_note-SPT-4) The engine, a Pratt & Whitney (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney) JT8D-15 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney_JT8D), was found a day later in a field near Madison, Florida (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madison,_Florida).[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_5#cite_note-SPT-4)

After landing, inspection crews found the forward lavatory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_lavatory) external seal was missing and had probably been improperly installed, causing a leakage when the plane was pressurized. The missing seal caused frozen chunks of lavatory fluid to be ingested by the number three engine thus damaging the compressor blades.[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_5#cite_note-NTSB1-5)

Is it clear why the malfeceance, as it were, seemed to cause effect on only the number three engine, but miss both the others? By coincidence, or somehow by design of the 727?

tdracer
14th Jul 2019, 18:13
Here's an article about the 1985 American engine separation with a reference to the earlier 1974 National incident which was also near ELP.

National Airlines lore says that the flight attendant came running to the cockpit and said 'we've lost an engine!' One of the pilots said, 'yeah, we know, we're shutting it down'. The F/A said 'no you're not, the f***ing engine fell off!' Years later I flew N4736 out of TXL with another carrier not knowing its engine history.


A bit more lore to go with that 1974 event, perhaps embellished over time (I heard it from a fellow Boeing engineer shortly after I started in 1977). The story is that there was knowledgeable aviation chap sitting in the back with the engine inlet obstructing his view out the window (I've had that seat on a 727 so that part rings true). Suddenly there was a loud bang, he looked out the window and his view was unobstructed - the engine was gone! The guy immediate started waving at a flight attendant:
'What's wrong sir'?
'WE JUST LOST AN ENGINE!'
'It's OK sir, they sometimes shutdown an engine - the aircraft can fly just fine on two.'
NO, YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND! THE ENGINE IS GONE - LOOK!!!
FA looks out the window, turns white, and heads to the flight deck.
Minute later, FE comes back, looks out the window, gasps, heads back to the flight deck.
A minute after that one of the pilots comes back, looks out the window, swears, heads back to the flight deck.

They then continued on to their destination.:rolleyes:

tdracer
14th Jul 2019, 18:18
Is it clear why the malfeceance, as it were, seemed to cause effect on only the number three engine, but miss both the others? By coincidence, or somehow by design of the 727?

Think of the engine inlet locations on the 727 - one in the center top (aka 'S-Duct') and one on each side. The blue ice isn't going to fly over the top of the fuselage and hit the center or opposite engine - it's going to hit the engine on the same side as the lav dump.

misd-agin
14th Jul 2019, 19:06
On the 727 if you opened the right rear door and looked forward you could see traces of any leak from the right front lav service station. The fluid trace started below the fuselage mid line and almost reached the top of the fuselage over the wing. From that point it descended until it reached the level of the #3 engine inlet.

lomapaseo
14th Jul 2019, 20:02
Well in the thoughts of Jetblast way below,I thought you might want to know how we knew the first blue ice missing engine was really from the lavatory. When we examined the recovered inlet nose dome we noted it had a curious soft body dent the size of a football. There was just no realistic explanation for that at altitude. So we got out our mag glasses and noted what looked like a pencil eraser smudges at the bottom of the dent. We smelled it, rolled it in our fingers and tasted it with our tongue. We then could conclude it wasn't a pencil eraser so we sent it off to the lab for spectros etc. Somewhere I have the lab report, but I recall that after all the percentages were in , like potash etc.that the lab guy compared it to a base sample collected off his front lawn and it was a close match.