View Full Version : Aer Arann runway incursion in Dublin

5th Aug 2002, 23:52
Just heard on the Dublin airport grapevine that an Aer Arann ATR42 taxied out onto the active runway in EIDW today 05Aug without permission from ATC.
There was a Ryanair B737 on the approach which had to go around......
I'll bet the lads in the ATR are doing a dance on the CP's carpet!!!
Just shows in a relatively quiet airport like EIDW mistakes which can prove life threatening.....even though conditions were perfect.
:( :confused: :eek:

Loose rivets
6th Aug 2002, 00:04
when so many aircraft wander onto the same runwy, it's time to look at the taxi/runway markings and lights as well as carpet the crews (multiple)

6th Aug 2002, 07:39
Maybe a language problem between crew and ATC, Aer Arann have a lot of Romanian flight deck crew working for them.



Hotel Mode
6th Aug 2002, 08:28
If it was dark, then i can see how, the lighting on some taxiways in Dublin is unbelievably poor, particularly from a low flightdeck like an ATR.

6th Aug 2002, 09:39
There is a very high incidence of runway incursions @ DUB. The IAA have been putting pressure on Aer Rianta for quite some time now to upgrade the taxyway markings (poor), lighting (poor to atrocious) and designation (comic-opera standard), as have ATC there.

The problem is that the markings are up to ICAO specifications, so Aer Rianta don't see why they should spend the money on making them over-spec.

They ignore, of course, that ICAO specifications are a minimum, and a minimum which is woefully inadequate.

Paris CDG learnt very quickly that, for a complex airport to be safe, the markings need to be of a much better quality than ICAO minimum, and upgraded theirs. In my time as FSO at Gill I reckoned that CDG and DUB were the two most dangerous airports we operated to.

There is no noticeable effect @ DUB of language between ATC and any particular operator.

"Carpeting" crews involved in runway incursions is not sensible, and I would be surprised if it happened. As soon as there appears to be blame and punishment in investigations, you will stop hearing about errors, and stop learning how to avoid them, so that was a silly comment to make. If people were provably negligent, then fair enough. But not until then. Even CPs are not immune from committing runway incursions! ;)

6th Aug 2002, 09:43
Although Dublin may be quiet at certain times of day, at peak periods it appears to be working at, or even beyond, capacity.

As to the possible language problem, is it really necessary for the controllers to speak quite so fast. I have used Dublin for years and still often struggle to understand what is being said.

6th Aug 2002, 16:33
ATC terminology at DUB is a disgrace. They seem incapable of using standard phraseology. Slang. colloquialisms, slurred speech, rapid fire instructions, refusal to give EATs when asked, crap speed control.
They continually clear you to join the ILS28 from 2,000ft even though the published altitude is 2,500ft.
Have you had them clear you to the same level twice? I find that really worrying.

They need to clean up their act, big time.

6th Aug 2002, 16:58
Yet another example of the "it's grand, it'll do" attitude :( Doesn't just affect ATC though. The IAA is another example. And that's just in the aviation side of things. Sometimes I wish I lived somewhere else :(

6th Aug 2002, 17:42
Operated out of Dub this morning and the level of ATC ground instructions to aircraft was crap. They really need to get their act together as does Aer Riannta and stick in a parallel rwy and the place goes choas when there is any type of low vis.

7th Aug 2002, 05:44
Aer Arann have a lot of Romanian flight deck crew working for them.

Define a lot.

Free Speed
7th Aug 2002, 15:41
Surely ATC should have checked that the rwy was clear, before clearing the RYR 737 to land.

7th Aug 2002, 16:51
Presumably the runway was clear when clearance to land was given to the 737 and that it was AFTER this that the ATR strayed onto the runway?

7th Aug 2002, 20:15
The IAA have been putting pressure on Aer Rianta for quite some time now to upgrade the taxyway markings (poor), lighting (poor to atrocious) and designation (comic-opera standard)

It takes 3 months to resurface a 30m X 20m section of the apron, how long will it take to do all those upgrades. Close EIDW for a few months.

8th Aug 2002, 00:26
the B737 wasn't cleared to land when the ATR taxied out onto the runway but was sent around at approx 1nm to run.
I have to agree with the standard of communication of ATC phraseology in Dublin......
A while back on yet another trip i was informed on the approach..." in the event of a ground around your climb out instructions are....."....okay fine you might say....but when we landed there was an ALT A330 on the approach who was given the same instruction...but the instruction was crossed and all the Shamrock guys heard was " Shamrock 133 go around..." which they duely did......
The aircraft came back round and on the approach another controller....probably a supervisor came on the RT and said that the pilots had misunderstood the clearance and they had not actually sent the aircraft around......
Yeah great.....but hey why does an approach plate have instructions on it "In the event of a go around" printed on it.....
Surely ATC in Dublin should keep their mouths shut and if the plane DOES go around then everyone concerned knows what/where the aircraft is going and there is no possible cause for mis communication.......
The same standards across the board doesn't leave anyone in doubt about what going on.....
I do find that some of the ATC controllers seem to take their troubles out on the aircraft and end up fairly snappy....and all you did was to report on freq holding short of the active...
:mad: :cool: :( :o

8th Aug 2002, 09:25
Runway Incursions? Here's a prevention system that costs airlines - nothing. www.airspecinc.com/

Free Speed
8th Aug 2002, 11:24
Stargazer02 the 737 was cleared to land at about 3.5nm, when ATC realised that the ATR was on the rwy, it was then cleared to takeoff, when the 737 was at 1nm the tower told the ATR to abandon, and instructed the 737 to go-around.

9th Aug 2002, 00:47
I stand corrected on the the exact distance the B737 was...hey the fact remains that the ATR was on the runway and the Fr was cleared to land....the ATR was on the runway and the B737 was at 3.5nm according to you.....it was still on the runway when the B737 was at 1nm........your point is?????????
I was basically highlighting another screw up in EIDW...even in perfect conditions this happened.....so what's the record like on low vis days?????:cool: :p ;) :rolleyes:

9th Aug 2002, 09:30
Dublin has been very busy lately, especially with the crap weather and changes of runway. I agree the ground instructions are usually read out very quickly and this could lead to problems.
The other day we landed on 28 in **** poor conditions and were told to exit at E5, in the meantime they swapped to 10 for departures. When we exited E5 we met a Shamrock 146 taxing down the Bravo and had to slam on the anchors to avoid a mess.
Yes, it was that close!

11th Aug 2002, 09:21
Avenger .... would that be considered a near miss and subject to an official enquiry and report? (serious question)

11th Aug 2002, 10:24
Do you guys really think that ATC is that bad at DUB? When I was flying I always found them to be OK, speed control always seemed good to me, but then things might have changed.

I agree that sometimes they have been guilty of moving into colloqualisms when communicating and often enough, the controllers do seem to be quite "snappy," I always had the vision that they were a very sensitive lot taking any request or comment as a personal slight or a bother. But on the whole as I said I found them OK.

I'm interested to know, what do the UK fliers think of DUB ATC?

Dublin is a busy place nowadays, 14 million passengers last year on one runway.

12th Aug 2002, 10:13
The best instruction I had from ATC was following a string of about ten taxi ways, to b e replced shortly afterwards by "never mind that just follow the shamrock 737 pushing ahead of you". Perhaps standard taxi routings would help rather than complex strings of letters and numbers which are easy to confuse and get wrong when looking at the plate. ATC are not supposed to give more than 5 pieces of info in any one transmission(human performance)!!

12th Aug 2002, 14:07
I'm pretty sure it's 3.

13th Aug 2002, 16:37
My favourite here was, in the dead of night, asked after handover from Manchester if we were 'picking up the localiser for 28'. Bear in mind we were still over Cheshire and well out of the ILS protected range.

Anyway, we're cleared the approach. ATIS offline so we ask for the weather. Bored voice replies 'Foine!'

It was actually on CAT 1 limits!

Love the last words on handover: 'Good luck'.

14th Aug 2002, 00:03
Yet another runway incursion in Dublin this morning...
a Scandanavian 737 holding short entered the runway whilst a company 737 was on the approach...within 5nm i believe
no doubt FreeSpeed will have the actual nm.....but perhaps Dub ATC are reading this thread because the controller was on the ball and asked if they had passed the hold short line and entered the runway....to which the crew sheepishly replied "yes" and they were told to expedite and vacate onto Rwy34.....so once again although this time not ATC another potential situation occurs in EIDW....how long will this go on until the IAA/Aer Rianta club together to make better lighted markings and better comms...does it take for a mini Tenerife to happen with the airport boundary before they do something......

Yes i have been too told to "follow the Shamrock 321 ahead" to the holding point......was a bit wary....since tied to the tail of the 321 was a plackard saying...."don't follow me i'm lost too"
I have to say that for all the yank bashing that goes on on this site....ATC do give better instructions and a more willing to help even at busy airport like my home base of LAX.......
Also there must be a civil servant out there who is re-designing EIDW taxiways....because it is a little maze out there why not simplify things.......a standard taxi in and out would be alot easier...granted it depends on the runway in use.
If found that once vacated the active ATC gave a big speel of where you were to go....then handed you over to ground who gave a different speel and dare you question it, you are chastised like a kid on the air.....with a snooty reply almost saying" for the benefit of those who didn't hear it the first time..."
REALLY guys/gals in DUB ATC....get a life......you are not and will never be the MECCA of ATC.......so chill out......and just concentrate on safely getting everybody where they want to go
:D :p ;) :cool:

Tom the Tenor
14th Aug 2002, 03:39
Yes, there is a certain breed of civil servant in Ireland who genuinely think the sun, moon and stars shines out of their behinds and how dare you criticise them. For example, some Gardai, (Police). Witness recent court cases re the carry on of some of the Donegal Division and the reaction to May Day protesters in Dublin. An arrogance and a Who but me attitude that non Irish types would not immediately recognise. It is the smallness and the clanishness of these agencies, of course.

18th Aug 2002, 16:27
This was in the Sunday business Post today. Nice to see that the journo has used the words
'In a confidential document seen by this newspaper, Irish and international pilots have criticised Aer Rianta for its poor runway markings, lighting and signs beside the runway, particularly in the context of this summer's poor weather conditions', she never mentioned PPRune. Anyway here is the full story:

Dublin, Ireland, 18 August, 2002

An Aer Arann aircraft strayed onto a busy runway at Dublin airport forcing an incoming Ryanair 737 to take action to avoid a collision, The Sunday Business Post has learned.

The incident on August 5 has added to pilots' growing concern about the number of runway incursions, where aircraft taxi onto active runways without permission from air traffic controllers.

Pilots are blaming an increase in "near miss" incidents on poor runway markings at the airport, as well as a low standard of instructions from air traffic controllers.

The Irish Aviation Authority confirmed the runway incident, and described the one nautical mile distance between the two planes as "not ideal".

A spokeswoman said the incident had been logged by air traffic controllers through the mandatory occurrence reporting scheme, and had been investigated.

"Aer Arann had been instructed to `hold short', but wandered onto the runway. At that stage the air traffic controllers gave an order to Ryanair to `go around', which is to start climbing again," she said.

In a confidential document seen by this newspaper, Irish and international pilots have criticised Aer Rianta for its poor runway markings, lighting and signs beside the runway, particularly in the context of this summer's poor weather conditions.

The Irish Aviation Authority, which is responsible for airport safety, has not asked Aer Rianta to upgrade aspects of the runway, because the airport's markings are up to the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) specifications, the spokeswoman said.

But pilots say the ICAO specifications are a minimum standard.

They point out that the aviation authorities at Charles de Gaulle airport in Paris upgraded runway markings beyond ICAO guidelines, on the basis that they should be of higher quality.

"We have not received any complaints from pilots about runway markings, but any complaints of this nature would be followed up," the IAA spokeswoman said.

"We would invite pilots with concerns to make them known to us."

Pilots have also accused air traffic controllers of issuing unclear, hurried and confusing instructions for take-off and landing, using slang and colloquialisms, and of clearing descent into Dublin at varying altitudes.

The IAA spokeswoman responded: "Staff are consistently reminded about using the correct phrases and this will continue.

"Now that this has been brought to our attention, we will raise the question of the standard of phraseology through a consultative process with operators at the airport."

18th Aug 2002, 23:15
"We have not received any complaints from pilots about runway markings, but any complaints of this nature would be followed up," the IAA spokeswoman said.

If I have a complaint I make it to my employer through the recognised company reporting procedures.
It's up to them to follow up on it.
Or not.

"We would invite pilots with concerns to make them known to us."

To the IAA....If you're serious about wanting pilots to make their concerns known to you then why haven't you ever set up a confidential reporting system like CHIRP in the UK?

No pilot (who needs the job) is going to go over the head of their company to report the IAAs failings - to the IAA- in person under their own name.
Not a hope in this banana republic.

Nice to see we made the papers though.
PPRuNe strikes again.

19th Aug 2002, 01:21
Hi there
yeah just had a friend of mine from Dublin fly in to LAX and had a copy of the Sunday Biz post.....
the reporter Niamh Connolly certainly deserves 10 out of 10 for finding "confidential reports"....i had to laugh when i read it considering most of the posts were quoted almost verbatum....
Seems to me that the Sunday Biz post's roving reporter must be looking for stardom.......
She could atleast tell the truth about where she got the info rather that try and pretend that it was a brilliant feat of journalism.....please.....
But it was WORTH the laugh...... poor girl needs to get out more
:D :cool: :p :D :cool:

19th Aug 2002, 11:49
Stargazer, just to clarify what I wrote, when I referred to the lack of a confidential reporting system I was not talking about a whistle-blowers line to the newspaper. What I meant was a proper confidential reporting system established by (or in conjunction with) the IAA and which is based on models like the UKs CHIRP (http://www.chirp.co.uk/what_is_chirp.htm) or NASA's ASRS (http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/main_nf.htm) (Air Safety Reporting System).

As to Miss Conolly, at least she put our concerns in the public domain. Lets not discourage her from doing so again.

19th Aug 2002, 11:56
Just use CHIRP; they do have contacts.

20th Aug 2002, 00:25
Absolutely....i agree and wasn't saying for 1 minute that one
should ring the newspapers....but the way the newspaper report
seemed to read that as Ms Connolly had somehow through
good reporting skills uncovered a "confidential report" rather than
just copying down what she read on this site....that's all
I think that if all ya'll don't have a confidential reporting system in the Emerald Isle then you all should do....perhaps IALPA should sort something out?????
:cool: :p :cool:

Lee-a-Roady Moor
22nd Aug 2002, 21:34
Despite the various problems associated with DUB - lighting, taxiways etc, Aer Rianta are seeking submissions for a new independently run air terminal in addition to a fast turn around pier to be in place by 2003.

How many more incursions will there be then?

Dublin has also come quite low in the pecking order for ontime departures - I don't think the addition of a new termianal will alter that for the better.

Overlooking the existing problems and the potential for a lot more, the proposal has been welcomed as being significant and a positive step towards the future development of tourism.:confused:

This proposal apparently "could put Ireland's airport structure ahead of other European cities while increasing competitive choice for airlines".

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Are delays really going to do that.....?

23rd Aug 2002, 10:58
Are delays really going to do that.....?

Come visit our wonderful airport and it's amazing facilities, it will all make sense.

btw Aer Rianta have nothing to do with the new terminal and are in fact opposed to it, which is why it's a good idea.