Aer Arann runway incursion in Dublin
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Aer Arann runway incursion in Dublin
Just heard on the Dublin airport grapevine that an Aer Arann ATR42 taxied out onto the active runway in EIDW today 05Aug without permission from ATC.
There was a Ryanair B737 on the approach which had to go around......
I'll bet the lads in the ATR are doing a dance on the CP's carpet!!!
Just shows in a relatively quiet airport like EIDW mistakes which can prove life threatening.....even though conditions were perfect.
There was a Ryanair B737 on the approach which had to go around......
I'll bet the lads in the ATR are doing a dance on the CP's carpet!!!
Just shows in a relatively quiet airport like EIDW mistakes which can prove life threatening.....even though conditions were perfect.
Psychophysiological entity
when so many aircraft wander onto the same runwy, it's time to look at the taxi/runway markings and lights as well as carpet the crews (multiple)
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There is a very high incidence of runway incursions @ DUB. The IAA have been putting pressure on Aer Rianta for quite some time now to upgrade the taxyway markings (poor), lighting (poor to atrocious) and designation (comic-opera standard), as have ATC there.
The problem is that the markings are up to ICAO specifications, so Aer Rianta don't see why they should spend the money on making them over-spec.
They ignore, of course, that ICAO specifications are a minimum, and a minimum which is woefully inadequate.
Paris CDG learnt very quickly that, for a complex airport to be safe, the markings need to be of a much better quality than ICAO minimum, and upgraded theirs. In my time as FSO at Gill I reckoned that CDG and DUB were the two most dangerous airports we operated to.
There is no noticeable effect @ DUB of language between ATC and any particular operator.
"Carpeting" crews involved in runway incursions is not sensible, and I would be surprised if it happened. As soon as there appears to be blame and punishment in investigations, you will stop hearing about errors, and stop learning how to avoid them, so that was a silly comment to make. If people were provably negligent, then fair enough. But not until then. Even CPs are not immune from committing runway incursions!
The problem is that the markings are up to ICAO specifications, so Aer Rianta don't see why they should spend the money on making them over-spec.
They ignore, of course, that ICAO specifications are a minimum, and a minimum which is woefully inadequate.
Paris CDG learnt very quickly that, for a complex airport to be safe, the markings need to be of a much better quality than ICAO minimum, and upgraded theirs. In my time as FSO at Gill I reckoned that CDG and DUB were the two most dangerous airports we operated to.
There is no noticeable effect @ DUB of language between ATC and any particular operator.
"Carpeting" crews involved in runway incursions is not sensible, and I would be surprised if it happened. As soon as there appears to be blame and punishment in investigations, you will stop hearing about errors, and stop learning how to avoid them, so that was a silly comment to make. If people were provably negligent, then fair enough. But not until then. Even CPs are not immune from committing runway incursions!
Although Dublin may be quiet at certain times of day, at peak periods it appears to be working at, or even beyond, capacity.
As to the possible language problem, is it really necessary for the controllers to speak quite so fast. I have used Dublin for years and still often struggle to understand what is being said.
As to the possible language problem, is it really necessary for the controllers to speak quite so fast. I have used Dublin for years and still often struggle to understand what is being said.
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ATC terminology at DUB is a disgrace. They seem incapable of using standard phraseology. Slang. colloquialisms, slurred speech, rapid fire instructions, refusal to give EATs when asked, crap speed control.
They continually clear you to join the ILS28 from 2,000ft even though the published altitude is 2,500ft.
Have you had them clear you to the same level twice? I find that really worrying.
They need to clean up their act, big time.
They continually clear you to join the ILS28 from 2,000ft even though the published altitude is 2,500ft.
Have you had them clear you to the same level twice? I find that really worrying.
They need to clean up their act, big time.
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Yet another example of the "it's grand, it'll do" attitude Doesn't just affect ATC though. The IAA is another example. And that's just in the aviation side of things. Sometimes I wish I lived somewhere else
Doesn't just affect ATC though. The IAA is another example. And that's just in the aviation side of things. Sometimes I wish I lived somewhere else
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Operated out of Dub this morning and the level of ATC ground instructions to aircraft was crap. They really need to get their act together as does Aer Riannta and stick in a parallel rwy and the place goes choas when there is any type of low vis.
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The IAA have been putting pressure on Aer Rianta for quite some time now to upgrade the taxyway markings (poor), lighting (poor to atrocious) and designation (comic-opera standard)
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The story again
Heinzmann
the B737 wasn't cleared to land when the ATR taxied out onto the runway but was sent around at approx 1nm to run.
I have to agree with the standard of communication of ATC phraseology in Dublin......
A while back on yet another trip i was informed on the approach..." in the event of a ground around your climb out instructions are....."....okay fine you might say....but when we landed there was an ALT A330 on the approach who was given the same instruction...but the instruction was crossed and all the Shamrock guys heard was " Shamrock 133 go around..." which they duely did......
The aircraft came back round and on the approach another controller....probably a supervisor came on the RT and said that the pilots had misunderstood the clearance and they had not actually sent the aircraft around......
Yeah great.....but hey why does an approach plate have instructions on it "In the event of a go around" printed on it.....
Surely ATC in Dublin should keep their mouths shut and if the plane DOES go around then everyone concerned knows what/where the aircraft is going and there is no possible cause for mis communication.......
The same standards across the board doesn't leave anyone in doubt about what going on.....
I do find that some of the ATC controllers seem to take their troubles out on the aircraft and end up fairly snappy....and all you did was to report on freq holding short of the active...
:o
the B737 wasn't cleared to land when the ATR taxied out onto the runway but was sent around at approx 1nm to run.
I have to agree with the standard of communication of ATC phraseology in Dublin......
A while back on yet another trip i was informed on the approach..." in the event of a ground around your climb out instructions are....."....okay fine you might say....but when we landed there was an ALT A330 on the approach who was given the same instruction...but the instruction was crossed and all the Shamrock guys heard was " Shamrock 133 go around..." which they duely did......
The aircraft came back round and on the approach another controller....probably a supervisor came on the RT and said that the pilots had misunderstood the clearance and they had not actually sent the aircraft around......
Yeah great.....but hey why does an approach plate have instructions on it "In the event of a go around" printed on it.....
Surely ATC in Dublin should keep their mouths shut and if the plane DOES go around then everyone concerned knows what/where the aircraft is going and there is no possible cause for mis communication.......
The same standards across the board doesn't leave anyone in doubt about what going on.....
I do find that some of the ATC controllers seem to take their troubles out on the aircraft and end up fairly snappy....and all you did was to report on freq holding short of the active...
:o
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Runway Incursions? Here's a prevention system that costs airlines - nothing. www.airspecinc.com/
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Stargazer02 the 737 was cleared to land at about 3.5nm, when ATC realised that the ATR was on the rwy, it was then cleared to takeoff, when the 737 was at 1nm the tower told the ATR to abandon, and instructed the 737 to go-around.
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Free Speed
I stand corrected on the the exact distance the B737 was...hey the fact remains that the ATR was on the runway and the Fr was cleared to land....the ATR was on the runway and the B737 was at 3.5nm according to you.....it was still on the runway when the B737 was at 1nm........your point is?????????
I was basically highlighting another screw up in EIDW...even in perfect conditions this happened.....so what's the record like on low vis days????? 
I was basically highlighting another screw up in EIDW...even in perfect conditions this happened.....so what's the record like on low vis days?????
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Dublin has been very busy lately, especially with the crap weather and changes of runway. I agree the ground instructions are usually read out very quickly and this could lead to problems.
The other day we landed on 28 in **** poor conditions and were told to exit at E5, in the meantime they swapped to 10 for departures. When we exited E5 we met a Shamrock 146 taxing down the Bravo and had to slam on the anchors to avoid a mess.
Yes, it was that close!
The other day we landed on 28 in **** poor conditions and were told to exit at E5, in the meantime they swapped to 10 for departures. When we exited E5 we met a Shamrock 146 taxing down the Bravo and had to slam on the anchors to avoid a mess.
Yes, it was that close!
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Do you guys really think that ATC is that bad at DUB? When I was flying I always found them to be OK, speed control always seemed good to me, but then things might have changed.
I agree that sometimes they have been guilty of moving into colloqualisms when communicating and often enough, the controllers do seem to be quite "snappy," I always had the vision that they were a very sensitive lot taking any request or comment as a personal slight or a bother. But on the whole as I said I found them OK.
I'm interested to know, what do the UK fliers think of DUB ATC?
Dublin is a busy place nowadays, 14 million passengers last year on one runway.
I agree that sometimes they have been guilty of moving into colloqualisms when communicating and often enough, the controllers do seem to be quite "snappy," I always had the vision that they were a very sensitive lot taking any request or comment as a personal slight or a bother. But on the whole as I said I found them OK.
I'm interested to know, what do the UK fliers think of DUB ATC?
Dublin is a busy place nowadays, 14 million passengers last year on one runway.