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David1991
14th May 2019, 14:45
Currently shipping the 737 around and was wondering if a hand paper logbook is still mandatory by law. Many colleagues are only using a electronic one on their phones or IPad. Could not find it it written somewhere. Thanks!

iggy
14th May 2019, 14:53
It depends on each CAA. As an expat some CAA will give them one of their logbooks for you to fill in when you get a license issued by them. Others will just be happy taking a look at your own logbook, while some others want to see the signature of each instructor that you flew with when you got your first IR twenty years ago, along with the stamp of CTL TWR for each cross country flight.

While navigating around the CAA's with your own logbook is still possible, doing it with an electronic logbook is still a no-no, at least from Istanbul to the East.

sonicbum
14th May 2019, 15:04
Can't see the point of even having a logbook nowadays. All the hours can be printed out from the company system and signed by FLT OPS / HR which makes it even more reliable. I personally only use the logbook for recreational SEP flights once in a while and just print out my operator's logged hours signed by somebody in the office whenever I need them.

David1991
14th May 2019, 15:35
Yeah.. indeed it does not make sense...still can’t find the law to it if you really have to nowadays...

Banana Joe
14th May 2019, 15:40
FCL.050 Recording of flight time

[...]

INSTRUCTIONS FOR USE

(e) Flight crew logbook entries should be made as soon as practicable after any flight undertaken. All entries in the logbook should be made in ink or indelible pencil.



And once printed, it is indelible ink.

I'm going fully electronic eventually, both professionally and recreationally.
​​

Check Airman
14th May 2019, 15:42
FAA doesn't specify electronic or paper. Paper logs are only convenient for signatures, which you can get electronically now anyway.

I haven't used my paper log in years.

gearlever
14th May 2019, 17:02
Can't see the point of even having a logbook nowadays. All the hours can be printed out from the company system and signed by FLT OPS / HR which makes it even more reliable.

That's how I and my company handle it since 15 years.

parabellum
14th May 2019, 17:04
The beauty of a hand written logbook is you have a continuous almanac of your flying career from First flight, First Solo right through to final check ride and final flight with all the people you flew with and all the margin notes you made along the way, all in a very accessible and readable format. The hand written log books are also a very accurate record of what you flew, who with, where and when. Not sure just how personalised electronic log books can be these days, some employers require a lot more information about one's hours than others, saw an experienced B747 skipper get turned away from the interview once because all he had to offer was a weighty computer print out!

FlyingStone
14th May 2019, 17:15
And once printed, it is indelible ink.

I'm going fully electronic eventually, both professionally and recreationally.​​

Your quote is actually an AMC, not an IR itself, therefore not legally binding. The only legal bit is as follows:

FCL.050 Recording of flight time
The pilot shall keep a reliable record of the details of all flights flown in a form and manner established by the competent authority.

So it depends on the licencing authority, which issued your licence.

Nomad2
14th May 2019, 18:35
I've never seen the point of these new fangled electronic logbooks. Totally impersonal and worthless.
I'm on paper logbook number four now.
There's more to books than just the data in them.
Just my tuppence worth...

hans brinker
14th May 2019, 19:49
I've never seen the point of these new fangled electronic logbooks. Totally impersonal and worthless.
I'm on paper logbook number four now.
There's more to books than just the data in them.
Just my tuppence worth...

I'm really impressed you made the leap to airplanes, think you would have stuck to bikes...

Check Airman
14th May 2019, 21:12
I appreciate the romance and sentiment associated with a paper logbook, but digital is just more practical.

tomuchwork
14th May 2019, 22:04
Can't see the point of even having a logbook nowadays. All the hours can be printed out from the company system and signed by FLT OPS / HR which makes it even more reliable. I personally only use the logbook for recreational SEP flights once in a while and just print out my operator's logged hours signed by somebody in the office whenever I need them.

Not true for most companies. Could only get direct records from one of my many companies to date(they tend to keep dying on me, currently RYR, no harm to aviation world if they would follow their predecessors here :E). So - do NOT rely on that.

However, most electronic logbooks offer the option to print out pages, even export them to external print shops to have a pro result(e.g. MCC, just to name the one I use). So, every 6 months I let print off my missing pages, put them in the binder, sign them off. Mission accomplished. Do not understand the discussion here.

Just combine the best of both "worlds"(as an airliner it is not really comfortable to do it the "classic" way and write every flight up - EXCEPT you are a green boy and need to have your first 1500 hours signed off by the Captain as PICUS - after that there is not really a need for discussion anymore), go for electronic, BUT do not rely on electronic alone and have it printed, signed, put it into a binder. A 5 Minute job every 6 months.

galdian
15th May 2019, 04:56
Would suggest largely depends on your prospects in the aviation game, if you're working for a company that will never EVER go broke and that you will never EVER leave then it's an irrelevant question.

If you're a contract pilot or just have s**t luck in your ongoing choice of employers a written logbook will be accepted by all, electronic by some.
If you want to play in someone else's CAA backyard they set their standards and requirements, no matter what you think of them it's their backyard - up to you to decide whether you want to....or can.... play or not.

Cheers.

Nomad2
15th May 2019, 05:24
Really, what's the downside of a paper one?

Certainly, it's universally acceptable, easily scanned and future proof. I suppose it's awkward if your ex wife puts them in the fire, as happened to a hostie friend of mines husband...

sonicbum
15th May 2019, 08:39
saw an experienced B747 skipper get turned away from the interview once because all he had to offer was a weighty computer print out!

We have turned away several super qualified skippers with nicely hand written logbooks because as soon as they sat in the SIM You could easily figure out that the vast majority of those hand written hours were BS. When people show up for an assessment at my Operator with company printed hours / OPC there are generally no big surprises during interviews (with the usual exceptions obviously), so we are more than happy to consider that rather than scanned logbook pages.

sonicbum
15th May 2019, 08:44
Not true for most companies. Could only get direct records from one of my many companies to date(they tend to keep dying on me, currently RYR, no harm to aviation world if they would follow their predecessors here :E). So - do NOT rely on that.

However, most electronic logbooks offer the option to print out pages, even export them to external print shops to have a pro result(e.g. MCC, just to name the one I use). So, every 6 months I let print off my missing pages, put them in the binder, sign them off. Mission accomplished. Do not understand the discussion here.

Just combine the best of both "worlds"(as an airliner it is not really comfortable to do it the "classic" way and write every flight up - EXCEPT you are a green boy and need to have your first 1500 hours signed off by the Captain as PICUS - after that there is not really a need for discussion anymore), go for electronic, BUT do not rely on electronic alone and have it printed, signed, put it into a binder. A 5 Minute job every 6 months.

If You have any decent rostering management system such as AIMS or similar You can easily print out Your hours every month or so. If You don't, I am sure You still have a way to cross check how many hours exactly You flew in the past 30/90 days or whatever for FTL compliance and print them out.

Skyjob
15th May 2019, 10:21
There is no requirement mandating how records are kept in most countries, but some authorities or airlines still in this day and age only accept paper copies of records.
Whether those records are handwritten or printed, as long as it is signed by a competent authority, makes little difference.

E.g.: some time ago the IAA would only accept paper records when transferring licences...

TheEdge
15th May 2019, 10:42
i do stick to paper logbook, personal preference mainly.

Denti
15th May 2019, 10:42
After paper logbook nr 6 i couldn't be bothered anymore. Went to electronic and stayed there. For my last interview i just printed the last 50 pages, put them in a binder and they were more than happy with that, the simulator and interview were more important anyway.Since i do keep it on several devices with a backup on a network storage, it has a much higher safety in my view than a paper written one that might get destroyed easily.

sonicbum
15th May 2019, 11:54
It is also romantic to have a paper logbook if You fly long haul 3 times a month but not so much when You fly 4 sectors 5 days in a row, IMHO.

David1991
15th May 2019, 12:00
So you are talking about having it signed every 6 months from a competent Person. Are you Talking of someone from the Airline you are working for? Just to make sure. Indeed I just passed my 1500 hours.

Vessbot
15th May 2019, 18:26
An electronic logbook is essentially mandatory as far as I'm concerned. My last few job applications had gigantic time grids requiring oddball combinations of times that would have been impossible to fill from a paper logbook.

I used to keep a paper one in parallel for the sentimental value, but it was unfortunately lost.

gums
15th May 2019, 22:07
Salute!
The electronic logs are great, and if you are worried, print out a summary every now and then.

OTOH, the biggest mistake I made was not keeping a personal log from day one. Not for legal purposes, but sentimental ones and such as some folks here will agree.

At my wartime squadron reunions, many of us can't even agree on where we got shot at or the date ( within a week or so unless it was a famous battle) and so forth. Over time, your memory blends things and events. You may have the mission date clear, but "who was that wingman"?

History is important, and a lot is being erased for political reasons. Of a dozen A-7D squadrons that I had linked on our website welcome page, the USAF History dweebs at Maxwell have erased the online histories except for one or two active units. Way I designed it was if you clicked on a patch you got the history. I got a stack of paper upon request, but even that was incomplete compared to what they had before 2010 or so. Didn't find out until we tried to rejoin in 2013 and none of the links worked. It was sad, because my squad was famous in WW2 - we had the only USAAF fighter pilot MoH recipient in the whole ETO ( Doolittle gothis for the Raid and that was in the Pacific). Our WW2 history was captured by a member in the book " Big Friend, Little Friend" by Turner.

Later, at the end of the VietNam debacle, my flight commander was the only member of the 354th FW to receive the Air Force Cross. His recommendation for the MoH was downgraded, as we were almost at the "first" end of the was in December 1972, and the USAF and reginme did not want another big hero.

One good example for you all is my own, and I did not log the misssion, but some newspaper did. It was 'cause I led the last flight of fighter bombers outta the whole damned war in December of 1975.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1149x1250/last_flt_out2_545cc7381d1a82115aa853f17a694d093cf01edf.jpg

Gums sends....

parabellum
16th May 2019, 08:40
I believe an experienced management pilot will quickly 'sus out' a bogus, hand written, log book and a couple of confirmatory phone calls will soon obviate the need to go as far as the simulator check. I'm not familiar with electronic log books but surely they are just as vulnerable to fudging as hand written? As with most computers, 'garbage in = garbage out'.

tomuchwork
16th May 2019, 11:53
David1991

No, I mean I sign it by myself(as it is required, at least here in Europe). Employer Stamp comes in when I leave them. Good enough.

I used handwritten logbooks till I hit #12 and being sometimes one month begin with completing the "paper log". Now, with MCC I download my roster, at the end of the flight day I just need to add aircraft reg, FO, block and flight times. And pax numbers + approach flown, but last 2 things are just a personal "tick" I want to have.

Banana Joe
16th May 2019, 12:24
I don't even log flight times in my electronic one. Just block off to block on and register an autoland when it's done. The least the better. The other figures wouldn't even come up on the EASA format.

stilton
18th May 2019, 14:36
Bit of a cultural issue as well, it seems and has always seemed almost unheard of for airline pilots on the west side of the Atlantic
to keep a proper log book other than a small
one for tax purposes


Whereas I believe in Europe keeping a written log with endorsements and other details is ‘the norm’

Check Airman
18th May 2019, 15:50
Bit of a cultural issue as well, it seems and has always seemed almost unheard of for airline pilots on the west side of the Atlantic
to keep a proper log book other than a small
one for tax purposes


Whereas I believe in Europe keeping a written log with endorsements and other details is ‘the norm’

I can count on one hand the number of guys I fly with who keep a paper log other than the one described above. I stopped updating my paper logbook after my commercial checkride. Never had an issue with domestic or ME carriers.

stilton
19th May 2019, 05:52
I can count on one hand the number of guys I fly with who keep a paper log other than the one described above. I stopped updating my paper logbook after my commercial checkride. Never had an issue with domestic or ME carriers.


Exactly my point