Since the 8.33 introduction...many probs.

[magpienja]

I hung up my headset just before 8.33 was introduce...in fact it was one of a number of things that made me decide to reluctantly sell my aeroplane...all to do with expense.

I wonder...since the introduction have there been many operational issues.

[POBJOY]

Well lots of people report ongoing Radio problems after expensive refits, so not everyone a happy bunny there. The cost of a full refit really has concentrated the minds of those who only operate privately with low utilisation. With the lack of a large 'World Market' there is no real competition for a simple tray replacement fix. No benefit to GA for the cost involved, and no benefit from a better 'air traffic' service as many 'providers' have a lack of staff to give a service to those who would call up when in transit.

[piperboy84]

Biggest problem I have is it’s a complete bugger trying to remember a longer string of numbers for local frequencies. 5 digits was fine, 6 is a bridge too far for my wee noggins.

[TheOddOne]

Both the popular 8.33 12 volt solutions, Trig and Garmin have a memory facility if, like piperboy84 above, you're becoming neuronally challenged. Our Garmin 255 also has 'last 10 used' facility. Also, it has a 'monitor' facility so I can talk on one channel and listen to another, only possible with 2 boxes previously. If you want to talk on the 2nd channel, then just hit the flip-flop button instead of having to reach for the comm panel. I find this so much easier and in fact don't feel the need for our 2nd comm box. We've retained it for the 2nd ILS/VOR function and just have COM tuned to the ATIS. I'm finding new, useful, features in the Garmin all the time. The Trig has a 'last received' button, too; saves those 'say again' moments (and 'was that for us?'!)

All in all, it was an expense, but in our case, rather than making us pack up, it had a positive impact on thinking about our radio stack and how we use it.
Next up, replacing our aged mode 'C' transponder, which is sometimes reported intermittent and is a real pain to use. We're going for a nice push-button solution with ADS-B out and re-positioning it for greater convenience. But then we currently train for the IMC/IR(R) rating as well as ab initio LAPL/PPL so it's all good.

Oh, and actually, there are only 5 digits to remember, not 6. Simply train your brain to eliminate the first '1' as it's the same for all channels and in fact is redundant.

TOO

[chevvron]

Biggest problem I have is it’s a complete bugger trying to remember a longer string of numbers for local frequencies. 5 digits was fine, 6 is a bridge too far for my wee noggins.

Don't see why; the last number will always be '0' or '5' same as with 25kHz; the main difference is the 5th number which might be anything. eg Farnborough Tower changed from 122.5 to 122.780

[Discorde]

Oh, and actually, there are only 5 digits to remember, not 6. Simply train your brain to eliminate the first '1' as it's the same for all channels and in fact is redundant.

It would help if the initial '1' was eliminated from RT exchanges too - only five figures to listen to and repeat back.

[chevvron]

It would help if the initial '1' was eliminated from RT exchanges too - only five figures to listen to and repeat back.
You forget the military use UHF frequencies starting with 2 or 3 so the 1 is necessary to avoid ambiguity.

[Discorde]

You forget the military use UHF frequencies starting with 2 or 3 so the 1 is necessary to avoid ambiguity.

UHF frequency notifications using civilian ATS facilities could be prefixed by the spoken character 'Uniform'.

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

The only issue we've had is people still calling up on the old frequency (3 helicopters straight through the overhead last weekend! Just as well it was too windy to be dropping paras)

[ChickenHouse]

There have been some operational issues:
* communication between 25k COM and 8k33 COM show the expected mismatch, i.e. a 25k COM transmission on FFF.F00 is often unreadable from a 8k33 COM at FFF.F05, although the same physical frequency
* ground stations changing to 8k33 frequencies frequently forget to give notice to FIS, thank to GDPR no automatic notice is given from the ITU authority to AIS and FIS, so fields have to actively give notice
* airfields still struggle with handhelds, forgot to buy 8k33 ones and find out by 'surprise'
* the not synchronized timing on when to go to 8k33 last year was the biggest sh*tty mess I ever saw
* 8k33 radios are usually modern digital devices with a lot of modes, menus, complex usability and not every old fart appears to be capable to deal with
* unpleasant surprise: Garmins older 4xx/5xx 8k33 capable GNSS/NAV/COM cannot store 8k33 frequencies, so the lookup of frequencies from the GPS is broken, wonder what they paid to get a 8k33 radio not capable to store 8k33 frequencies certified, upon complaint they say it is a database issue they are not willing to fix - cut purse behavior, drives more people to Avidyne though

[magpienja]

After reading your post Chickenhouse I have to say....that's more or less what I expected.

I thought to myself...I just cant be bothered with all the hassle...knowing my old and trusty interface/intercom would prob also need changing as plugs connector could be different.

That and lots of other niggles was enough to send me AWOL.

​​​​​P.S. I had a spare 25khz A20 for my aircraft...I kept that...still works a treat as an airband receiver when I want to have a listen...just as sensitive as ever on an external antenna...obviously cant get the new in between frequency's but in my area nobody is using them far as I know.

[BoeingBoy]

unpleasant surprise: Garmins older 4xx/5xx 8k33 capable GNSS/NAV/COM cannot store 8k33 frequencies, so the lookup of frequencies from the GPS is broken, wonder what they paid to get a 8k33 radio not capable to store 8k33 frequencies certified, upon complaint they say it is a database issue they are not willing to fix

Is this applicable to the older sets that have not been upgraded to WAAS status? My 430 stores my local 8.33khz frequencies to the best of my knowledge (although your post will make me check next time out) and I've not seen the issue mentioned before.

[ChickenHouse]

Is this applicable to the older sets that have not been upgraded to WAAS status? My 430 stores my local 8.33khz frequencies to the best of my knowledge (although your post will make me check next time out) and I've not seen the issue mentioned before.
According to telephone support, it is all old boxes and it is not a principal problem, but Garmin simply refusing to upgrade the software according to the supports answer. Try to put a FPL in a late AIRAC cycle and choose an airfield you'll see 'frequencies not available'. Garmin told these boxes are unable to store 8k33.

I only update the 430 once a year, due to VFR only in this aircraft and was absolutely surprised, especially since Jeppesen selling the update confirmed to deliver all data.

The way customer service has been trained to answer will be a significant part of later decisions when repairs occur - I'll most probably will no longer consider staying Garmin, lucky we have choices.

[chevvron]

UHF frequency notifications using civilian ATS facilities could be prefixed by the spoken character 'Uniform'.
Adding 2 extra syllables for the sake of deleting one.

[TheOddOne]

Locally, the UHF boys and girls routinely say 'contact Tower channel 2 good-day'.

The boating lot seem to use channel numbers, 16 generally and channel 80 if you want fuel at the marina, for instance. I've no idea what these frequencies are and why would it matter?

TOO

[Discorde]

Adding 2 extra syllables for the sake of deleting one.

In non-military airspace, what is the ratio of UHF frequency notifications to VHF notifications?

[TheOddOne]

I don't think there is such a thing as non-military airspace! I don't know how much use the military make of Class 'A' but they certainly can be found everywhere else.

TOO

[Discorde]

I don't think there is such a thing as non-military airspace! I don't know how much use the military make of Class 'A' but they certainly can be found everywhere else.

Amended version:

In Class A, Class D and Class G airspace, what is the ratio of UHF frequency notifications to VHF notifications?

[Jan Olieslagers]

The boating lot seem to use channel numbers

As I remember, a "channel" as used in marine VHF consists of two frequencies, so that they can have duplex communication, which we poor aviators cannot. Even not in the days of 8,33 kHz :(

[chevvron]

Locally, the UHF boys and girls routinely say 'contact Tower channel 2 good-day'.

The boating lot seem to use channel numbers, 16 generally and channel 80 if you want fuel at the marina, for instance. I've no idea what these frequencies are and why would it matter?

TOO
I doubt if they say 'Channel 2' as this would indicate a common (UK wide) frequency.
At RAF airfields home based aircraft are usually equipped with a radio box containing pre-set frequencies for that airfield referred to as 'Studs'.
'Stud 2' is the normal setting on a home based aircraft's radio for that airfield's approach frequency, Stud 1 being that airfield's tower frequency. At another airfield, Stud 1 and Stud 2 will be entirely different frequencies.

[TheOddOne]

Hi chevron,
Down our way it's the Senior Service, who may do things differently from their colleagues in pale blue.

Fortunately, they bandbox UHF and VHF controller transmissions, so we can guess when they're talking on UHF i.e. they say something and there's a deafening silence as far as we're concerned, then there's a further transmission. Usually, you can fill in the gaps yourself.

I used to hear 'stud' when getting a 'service' from Benson, so I guess it's a difference between the Services. Occasionally, they'll read out the full UHF frequency, mostly to visiting aircraft flying down from England.

TOO

[chevvron]

Hi chevron,
Down our way it's the Senior Service, who may do things differently from their colleagues in pale blue.

Fortunately, they bandbox UHF and VHF controller transmissions, so we can guess when they're talking on UHF i.e. they say something and there's a deafening silence as far as we're concerned, then there's a further transmission. Usually, you can fill in the gaps yourself.

I used to hear 'stud' when getting a 'service' from Benson, so I guess it's a difference between the Services. Occasionally, they'll read out the full UHF frequency, mostly to visiting aircraft flying down from England.

TOO
Yes it's only home based aircraft who are given the 'Stud'; visitors will always get the full frequency.
When we used to do Odiham radar and director from Farnborough, we were Odiham's 'Stud 3' whilst Farnborough approach was ( I think) 'Stud 5' to an Odiham aircraft and 'Stud 2' to a Farnborough aircraft.

[Whopity]

When 8.33 was first introduced the 8.33 frequencies were referred to as Channels but this seemed to cause even more confusion and was dropped.
In the marine world there is only a limited number of frequencies around 150 MHz so Channel numbering is convenient however; with 8.33Khz there are theoretically 2940 channels (760 + 2180)
In the main, the military use stud numbers for two purposes, frequencies were programmed to studs on some radios so no need to dial in frequencies, allowing more flexibility and to stop others following them to the next frequency.
Eurocontrol is still referring to channels
Given the difference between 25kHz spaced frequencies and the 8.33kHz channels, it is very important that flight crews understand the correct operation of their radio equipment and tune their radios accordingly. Pilots have to understand the difference between frequencies and channels and they should not attempt to tune their 25kHz radio to match an 8.33kHz channel.

In Class A, Class D and Class G airspace, what is the ratio of UHF frequency notifications to VHF notifications?
There is no ratio, all civil aeronautical communication is VHF. The Military use UHF but when aircraft are operating as civil air traffic they will be talking to civil ATC on VHF. There are military controllers embedded into the civil ATC system and military aircraft on operations may well be talking to RAF controllers on UHF. These controllers look after seperation with civil traffic. On V bombers we flew Navexes that took no account of civil airspace, the military controllers on the ground did all the work. I anticipate its much the same with our fighters today, we don't seem to have bombers any more.

[A and C]

I have a question for those with early Garmin units.

Are you unable to save 8.33 channels in your communications radio memory ?

Can you retrieve 8.33 channels from the airport section of the airport data base and move them to the comm standby window ?

[ChickenHouse]

I have a question for those with early Garmin units.

Are you unable to save 8.33 channels in your communications radio memory ?

Can you retrieve 8.33 channels from the airport section of the airport data base and move them to the comm standby window ?



Garmin is quite clear on it:

Thank you for contacting Garmin Support regarding the issues with your device. Unfortunately, GNS is not able to store 8.33 frequencies in the Navigation Database. I need to explain briefly some technical details regarding Navigation databases to help you understand the root cause of the problem. The original Navigation database format for the GNS series was designed in early 2000 ‘s when 8.33 frequencies were not being used in aviation, nor were there any plans to do so in future. This is why the format of the Navigation database does not allow to code 8.33 frequencies. This could only be achieved by designing new format of the Navigation Database. We call it ADB1 for the old format and ADB2 for the new format. ADB2 increases amount of information associated to each airfield which allows to code 8.33 frequencies as well as additional approaches and more. Sadly, GNS production has been discontinued years before the ADB2 format was created and therefore currently available and certified GNS firmware is not compatible with it. Garmin is monitoring the impact that this is having on our customers, but due to the discontinuation of this product and severity of the firmware changes required, it is unlikely that new software will be released to resolve the issue. Please accept our apologies for the inconvenience caused.

[nonsense]

As I remember, a "channel" as used in marine VHF consists of two frequencies, so that they can have duplex communication, which we poor aviators cannot. Even not in the days of 8,33 kHz :(
Some marine VHF channels are composed of a pair of frequencies to allow the use of repeaters located on high ground to extend range. Aircraft don't generally need to use repeaters. since you're supposed to already be above the highest ground most of the time!

[A and C]

Chicken house

thanks for that , it explains a lot.