Condor squawks 7700 mid Atlantic

[Flyingmole]

FR24 showingCondor flight DE 2116 Frankfurt to Mexico squawked 7700 mid-Atlantic and staggered back to Shannon. No furthe info available as at 21.20 GMT.

[safelife]

A330, operated by Thomas Cook UK.

[Hotel Tango]

"staggered back" or simply diverted?

[DaveReidUK]

Wouldn't sell as many newspapers. :O

[flyfan]

Apparently smoke in the flightdeck.
Incident: Thomas Cook A332 over Atlantic on Feb 6th 2019, smoke in cockpit (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4c3da991&opt=1)

[Flyingmole]

Any aviation chaps out there have any ideas on what could cause enough smoke to convince the pilot to go 7700 and yet not leave any trace of ignition or combustion after landing? One presumes that an experienced pilot can distinguish between particulate smoke and vapour condensation.

[ManaAdaSystem]

Any aviation chaps out there have any ideas on what could cause enough smoke to convince the pilot to go 7700 and yet not leave any trace of ignition or combustion after landing? One presumes that an experienced pilot can distinguish between particulate smoke and vapour condensation.

Contamination in the AC system, various fans that fails, pack issues, deicing fluid in the system and what else?
Smoke does not equal fire, but how do you know?
Water vapor disappears 20 cm after it comes out of the vents and doesn’t smell.

[andrasz]

Any aviation chaps out there have any ideas on what could cause enough smoke to convince the pilot to go 7700 and yet not leave any trace of ignition or combustion after landing?

Plenty of electronics components will emit smoke as they fail, but once they burn out the symptoms will stop. Most of these failures will not result in any visible flames, and the failed component would only be evident after disassembly. The smell is a dead giveaway though...

[wiggy]

Any aviation chaps out there have any ideas on what could cause enough smoke to convince the pilot to go 7700 and yet not leave any trace of ignition or combustion after landing? One presumes that an experienced pilot can distinguish between particulate smoke and vapour condensation.

Smoke, a suspicion of smoke, fumes or serious suspicion thereof, regardless of the route cause may lead to a crew actioning a generic checklist labelled “smoke, fire or fumes”...and potentially lead to a diversion

As others have now pointed out actioning a “smoke ...checklist” doesn’t automatically mean the crew were dealing with clouds of visible combustion products that will leave traces all over the flight deck.

[rog747]

Almost 900 miles out in the Atlantic - Then takes 2 hours to get back to SNN - not nice at all when you are smelling burning...120 Mins of ETOPS would be quite enough for me.

[763 jock]

What does it have to do with ETOPS?

[ivor toolbox]

Almost 900 miles out in the Atlantic - Then takes 2 hours to get back to SNN - not nice at all when you are smelling burning...120 Mins of ETOPS would be quite enough for me.

Last time I checked, 120 mins = 2 hours, or don't they teach that in pilot school anymore.
And like above what has ETOPS got to do with it, that only comes in when there is need to shut down an engine.

Ttfn

[Salina Chan]

What does it have to do with ETOPS?

He is probably refering to the fact that ETOPS nowadays would allow you to be far further than "just" two hours away from any suitable landing strip with a sick bird on your hands. Something to ponder on a long night over the Pacific...

[rog747]

Etops brain Fart
Do please excuse me it was 6am

[meleagertoo]

ETOPS has plenty to do with it. If they weren't ETOPS they'd have been closer to a diversion and it would have taken much less time to get back to one.

[wiggy]

ETOPS has plenty to do with it. If they weren't ETOPS they'd have been closer to a diversion and it would have taken much less time to get back to one.

So ETOPS or not (and the incident in question here is not an ETOPs issue) what’s your suggested bottom line in terms of maximum distance from an alternate?

[Tay Cough]

So for those of us who fly non-ETOPS across the Atlantic, what happens to us? :E

(Clue: there's no requirement for me to fly the non-ETOPS route or be anywhere near an airfield)

[763 jock]

ETOPS has plenty to do with it. If they weren't ETOPS they'd have been closer to a diversion and it would have taken much less time to get back to one.

What exactly has the number of engines got to do with this? The outcome would have been the same in a tri jet or a quad.

Are you suggesting that ETOPS is unsafe?

[beardy]

I understood that ETOPs had become ERangeOPs, EROPs. Now applicable rules to all aircraft irrespective of number of engines.

[Havingwings4ever]

Long time ago, was riding one of our 76-3er from Europa to Vancouver. After the beautiful sights of "Green"land and a little chat with Thule we started to get light fumes in the cockpit, visible and smelled it. Wasn't too bad but almost 2 hours from our alternate Yellowknife it required some attention:) After some troubleshooting including killing the power to the galleys, our Purser had been informed and the 1st class gal came back with the info that there was a rattling noise under the galley floor at door 1R. In concert with ops we decided to switch the avionics cooling into override I believe. FA came back and reported the noise to be gone. We checked the galley and the floor, no smoke no heat and the fumes in the cockpit disappeared. We decided to continue to YYC but ready to divert to Yellowknife(they have a McDonalds there that provided dinner for another 76 of ours that diverted there because of an engine fire), or Edmonton further down the line if needed. We choose YYC not just because it was our destination but also the weather being VMC all the way down, unlike Yellowknife and Edmonton. We were aware that the avionics were cooled by diff pressure now and that at lower altitude it wouldn't work as well, resulting in possible loss of all our glass instruments etc. Briefed the arrival into YYC extensively and were prepared to fly the bird on the stby instr. After an uneventful descent/approach and enjoying the beautiful scenery the glass panels were starting to fade out and completely fail in the flare. They found the avionics fan bearing completely torn up, next day new fan and back home.(We bought the FA who brought our attention to the noise under the galley floor a nice little gift :)

[Carjockey]

Contamination in the AC system, various fans that fails, pack issues, deicing fluid in the system and what else?
Smoke does not equal fire, but how do you know?
Water vapor disappears 20 cm after it comes out of the vents and doesn’t smell.

There's no smoke without fire old chap!

[flash8]

Smoke in the cockpit/airplane? Every second and I mean second counts, time to put the airplane on the ground pronto. self-diagnosing severity has shown in the past terrible outcomes that quite possibly could have been averted had this rule been applied, false alarm? A damned small price to pay, 2 hours out? I'd be sh*tting myself.

[FE Hoppy]

Having had smoke in the Atlantic (at low level) I can assure you it's not fun and not something you dick about with. In my case it was a windshield heating controller which I eventually found but when there are only two flight crew and no access to some of the equipment bays then the sound and airman like decision is to land immediately at the nearest suitable. And use all your skills to make immediately as soon as it can possibly be.

[FE Hoppy]

Smoke in the cockpit/airplane? Every second and I mean second counts, time to put the airplane on the ground pronto. self-diagnosing severity has shown in the past terrible outcomes that quite possibly could have been averted had this rule been applied, false alarm? A damned small price to pay, 2 hours out? I'd be sh*tting myself.
^^^^^^^^^WORD^^^^^^^^!

[Herod]

Happily, in my forty or so years flying, I never had the problem, but uncontrolled fire in the air was always my most worrying point. Most other things you can sort out, but.... the least hint of smoke/fire, get the thing on the ground. Good decision

[wiggy]

So for those of us who fly non-ETOPS across the Atlantic, what happens to us?

And what happens to those of us flying ETOPS/EROPS across a land mass.......:E

[Plain1]

On Feb 7th 2019 the airline reported liquid was spilled onto electronic devices in the cockpit causing the smoke.

Expensive coffee!

[meleagertoo]

So ETOPS or not (and the incident in question here is not an ETOPs issue) what’s your suggested bottom line in terms of maximum distance from an alternate?

Had you read my post more carefully you'd see I made no suggestion nor implied one was required. I merely made a factual statement.

Almost 900 miles out in the Atlantic - Then takes 2 hours to get back to SNN - not nice at all when you are smelling burning...120 Mins of ETOPS would be quite enough for me.
Rog said it, not me.

What exactly has the number of engines got to do with this? The outcome would have been the same in a tri jet or a quad.

Are you suggesting that ETOPS is unsafe?
Again, had you troubled to actually read my post you'd realise I made no mention nor implication re safety - you invented that!

It is quite extraordinary how some people manage to invent so much extra content from a simple sentence that simply isn't there, ony in their heads!

With no ETOPS and 3-4 engines they'd have been even further away so number of engines is clearly relevant. Prefer 3 hrs of worry with a smoke emergency than 2 do you? Strange.

Equally if it were only say a theoretical 90 minutes ETOPS they'd have been closer.

If ETOPS didn't exist for twins they'd be out in the middle 3 hrs away too.

So how can you say number of engines is irrelevant when it (via ETOPS) determines how far from a diversion you are?

[wiggy]

Meleagertoo

I hate to appear to be a sensitive soul but for the sake of clarity would it be possible to clarify who exactly you are responding to when you state:

“ Again, had you troubled to actually read my post you'd realise I made no mention nor implication re safety - you invented that!”.....

[763 jock]

“So how can you say number of engines is irrelevant when it (via ETOPS) determines how far from a diversion you are?”

How close should a twin be then?

What difference would it have made to a crew with three, four or even 8 engines? In this scenario, the engines are irrelevant.