Strange attitudes to female pilots. [Archive]

Whirlybird

1st Aug 2002, 17:29

Well, I'll probably get accused of sexism, or being "obsessed with gender"; it's happened before. But never mind; I'll risk it. :D

Many of us women know we run into what might be considered rather strange attitudes when we fly, especially considering that it's 92 years since the first woman got her PPL. Here are some that either happened to me, or that I heard of:

1) After flying in to Pembrey, talking on the radio, screwing up on the radio and asking for practically everything to be repeated, landing, buying fuel, and booking in, I remark on the lovely beach you can see from downwind. "Oh", says the airfield manager, "do you fly?"

2) Two women I know flew to an airfield in Corsica. They were accused of hiding someone in the back, since everyone just knew they couldn't possibly have flown themselves there; a man must have helped them. They had a very hard time managing to leave. The fact that the aircraft was a two seater seemed to escape everyone's notice. :confused:

3) My favourite; told to me by a friend:
A man walked into a flying school.
Woman behind desk: Can I help you.
Man: Er..I'd like to know about learning to fly
Woman: OK, I can tell you about that
Man: Well...I think I should talk to a flying instructor
Woman: That's alright, I'm a flying instructor
Man: Oh...well. I really should talk to the Chief Flying Instructor
Woman: Fine, I'm the Chief Flying Instructor
Man: Oh, I see...well...I really think I need to talk to the owner of the school
Woman: No problem; I own this flying school...

It happened; I didn't make it up, honest!

OK, over to the rest of you.

BANNED from this thread - comments by men that they think women make good pilots, bad pilots, better/worse pilots than men, or whatever; we've heard it all before and it's irrelevant. I'm just curious to know what other women have run into. And I was bored today anyway, and just fancied starting a new thread. :D

And believe it or not, I mean this as a lighthearted thread, not a tirade against prejudice, so let's try and keep it that way. :D If it degenerates I'll delete the whole thing. That's a promise!!!

Whipping Boy's SATCO

1st Aug 2002, 18:00

The strange attitude within the RAF is that, at every opportunity, the 'powers that be' want to parade the girls in front of the cameras. Suffice to say, discontent is rising (amongst the girls) and many now refuse to take part in the charade.

PS my flying instructor was female and the only strange attitude I encountered was somewhere near the stall.:) :)

EI_Sparks

1st Aug 2002, 18:01

BANNED from this thread - comments by men that they think women make good pilots, bad pilots, better/worse pilots
than men, or whatever; we've heard it all before and it's irrelevant. I'm just curious to know what other women have
run into. And I was bored today anyway, and just fancied starting a new thread.

Ummm. Okay, I was going to say that I trust female pilots more, but instead I'll skip it and point out that female engineers
seem to labour under the same burden - I've been in a situation before where a guy was asking a question about programming,
and then proceeded to ignore the correct answer that the girl beside me gave (twice!) and then accepted it without question
when I repeated it.
And as for Prof. Jane Grimson (first female engineering graduate from TCD back in the 70s), if I had an euro for every letter
addressed to her that started with "Dear Sir", well, I'd have my own plane by now...

Humans. Sheesh. :rolleyes:

MLS-12D

1st Aug 2002, 18:11

I'm not a high-timer, but based upon my limited personal experience I haven't seen any reason to believe that flying is easier for men or women, or that either sex has any inherent advantage.

If this is indeed true, then it seems to me that the time has long passed for the abolition of all gender-based FAI records. I.e., there is no need for feminine records, which imply that it's unfair to judge women by the same standards as male pilots.

stiknruda

1st Aug 2002, 19:19

A white girl taught me to fly in black Africa - she overcame everyone's prejudices by being bloody good at what she did.

I count as many girl pilots as friends as I do boy pilots. Okay you both know who you are!

The thing that I find even stranger than gender-ism in flying is that most folk think that you need to have independent means to own or operate an aeroplane.

That to me is a myth that needs debunked!

Stik

Keef

1st Aug 2002, 22:45

I remember the shock-horror reactions when it was announced that we were to have a female priest in our team.

That soon changed, and she's now highly popular.

I think the trigger is often fear of the unknown, rather than gender prejudice (there's some of that, too).

But Whirly - really - can a woman fly a food-mixer? ;)

Final 3 Greens

1st Aug 2002, 22:51

Whirly

It doesn't surprise me, sad to say - life is full of stereotypes and unconscious judgements..... not that I ever suffer from this human failing you understand!

Genghis the Engineer

2nd Aug 2002, 07:07

It happens in many walks of life, and makes little sense in any. One of my hobbies happens to be cooking, and I've been met with utterl incredulity on several occasions when I try to chat about my hobby in otherwise completely female company. Any who'd like to try and be credible as a male nurse.

That said, sitting both sides of the professional aviation fence, there are far more women pilots, with fewer problems of this nature, than women Engineers.

G

pulse1

2nd Aug 2002, 08:10

When I was learning to glide, I was asked to drive one of the club tug pilots to bring back a Tiger Moth tug from servicing. This particular pilot was very petite and extremely feminine (last heard of her when her photo was in the paper as half of the first British all female airline crew).

When we arrived at the hangar, the engineers started to talk to me and, even when we pointed out the she was the pilot, they found it difficult to look at her when discussing details of the servicing and I'm sure they thought we were pulling their legs.

When she placed a huge cushion on the rear seat and then proceeded to strap in, their faces were a picture.

White Shadow

2nd Aug 2002, 10:51

Old story, WW2 vintage, when female ATA pilots used to ferry all sorts of war-planes from factories to operational airfields -

High-ranking RAF person (scrambled-egg on hat-peak, etc), looking for a lift from some factory somewhere-or-other back to his unit, told there was a Lanc out there just going his way, climb on board.
Races out, climbs in, settles into navigator's perch.
Looks around, nobody else there.
Four Merlins start up, one after another.
Then notices a young girl, head down, hunched in the left-hand seat, reading Pilot's Notes.

WS

Grim Reaper 14

2nd Aug 2002, 11:45

I do hope that this will be taken in the right spirit (bodes well doesn't it...), but my recollection is that the first time I encountered female pilots or instructors, I was surprised, but only because they were/are such a rarity. Similar to bird spotters travelling hundreds of miles to see a lesser spotted dingle dangle, it doesn't make the individual in question any better or worse in any category, just a rarity, which warrants attention.

I'm also surprised as flying is one of those subjects that attracts males because of the kudos, gadgets and boasting opportunities it presents. Most of the women I know aren't interested in gadgets, boasting in the pub and being the big 'I am'. I can feel this slipping away from me now, but despite the fact that flying doesn't have to be about any of those things, it generally becomes it with such a massive male input and influence, hence my initial surprises (not at the fact that they were there, but that there were any at all, where I had previously seen none).

Do I need to put 'sorry' at the end of this? I hope not, because an honest opinion is only that.:)

ppl(a)

2nd Aug 2002, 11:52

Pulse 1

I think it must be an ongoing 'cultural' thing!

Anyone who has travelled to Turkey, Cyprus, Egypt ... particularly that part of the world, will know that women become almost "invisible" for any business/car/aeroplane etc, etc, purposes - even if the woman wants to buy, it's the man they talk to!

(Not that different from computer shops, car salesmen etc in the UK)!

But it is changing, it will change, in the UK at least. My Instructor was male, but once I'd got my PPL, the first planes I used to hire were owned / operated by a woman (who's an Examiner, IR rated etc).

Penguina

2nd Aug 2002, 12:14

Grim,

Not at all, I'm a woman and I agree with you I think. I get more attention from loveable but geeky gadget/machine-obsessed blokes than any other, because they think I'm some kind of dream woman who they can talk to about these things, due to the flying business. I generally disappoint them, because I'm not very geeky - trying harder to be, as it happens. I get less interest from the posers, however, in case I present a threat...

So far, very little obvious prejudice encountered over gender, but if you happen to be young as well it can feel a struggle not to be a bit segregated, because all the older men are unsure of how to relate to you.

That said, I did find myself being referred to as 'that lady pilot' approaching a busy circuit recently. Three pilots and an A/G controller were discussing my position with absolutely no thought of talking to me. I got a bit worried as I thought I had everyone in sight and suddenly there was this strange other plane I didn't know about. Took me a minute to realise the lady pilot was me!

Staring into this screen for so long can't be good for my future medicals...

distaff_beancounter

2nd Aug 2002, 12:55

As a woman pilot have have to agree with both of you.

I do not have a nerdy geeky interest in things technical - I just like playing with them :D

So if that means finding out about the basic workings of aircraft, very fast cars, computers, mobile phones, GPS, digital cameras, or any other gizmo, that has taken my fancy .... then I do it, but only on a need to know basis.

I have spent nearly all my life working in so called male oriented environments, with the same situation for hobbies. Like many women pilots, I really like men & enjoy their company, but I can't be bothered to get into the usual competitiveness, then some men seem to indulge in, at work & at play.

Also I never let the "strange attitudes to female pilots" worry me at all, I usually just find them a laugh.
Norwich Airport, walking through door marked Air Crew Only ....
Security Man "are you 2 ladies with a pilot?"
Me "No ... us 2 ladies ARE the pilots"

Although, when I do meet a geniune unrecontsructed male chauvanist dinosaur, I just cannot resist the temptation to wind him up. :D

Whirlybird

2nd Aug 2002, 13:00

Grim Reaper,

Good points actually. It reminds me of a thread I planned to start last time I was bored, but I forgot about it. Being into gadgets and similar is only one reason to fly. The other main one, as I see it (since it was mine :D), is being like a bird, up there away from everyone, slipping the surly bonds of earth and all that. Followed closely, for me, by being in control :D

There are probably lots of other reasons too.

Hmmm...maybe I will start a new thread....

singaporegirl

2nd Aug 2002, 14:33

Whirly,

Couldn't agree more about the major reason for flying. Every time I head off down the runway and feel the wheels lift off, I can't stop a big grin spreading across my face as the ground drops away below. (I know I should be anxiously thinking what I need to do in case of an Efato, but constantly expecting the worst kind of defeats the whole object! :) )

Interestingly, although there are obviously far more men than women at my club, I've never felt patronised or regarded as different because of my gender. The closest I've come to it was on one of my solo landaways at Lydd, when the FISO told me to park next to the Piper XXXX...short pause..."that's the bluey-green one in front of the tower". Just as well he mentioned the colour - I'd still be taxying in circles now! :D

Miss Bigglesworth

2nd Aug 2002, 17:22

- A bad experience in Florida with an extremely patronising & chauvanist instructor on the bfr.

- If I'm with Mr B and walk into a pilot shop/flying club/whatever, the attention will always be directed at Mr B, even though he doesn't fly himself.

- I often get bad vibes from the 'posers' who I assume see me as some kind of a threat (A bit weird cos I'm very shy and retiring!)

And as a side point, I work in aviation, on a very male-biased side of the business. I'd estimate that one in every twenty chaps that telephone assume I'm the secretary and will blatantly show their unwillingness to 'talk aeroplanes' with a woman. Quite amusing really.

AerBabe

2nd Aug 2002, 18:21

I've not had too many problems, although one of the 'old timers' that occasionally mans the phone at our clubhouse initially refused to talk to me, or even acknowledge my presence. My instructor has always been really supportive (when he's not taking the pi55), and makes a point of pushing me forward and letting everyone know I'm a pilot, and not a hanger-on.

Something which I've experienced a few times, and I'm sure the men don't, is the audience I get when taxiing. Quite often get 2 or 3 guys standing staring at me. I just give them a little wave and get on with it. ;)

Captsumday

3rd Aug 2002, 11:26

Whirly

Great you started this thread, although what I am about to post you may consider enough to pull the plug on the lot as it doesnt quite fit your original mold - I hope not.

And now I am about to blow at least half my cover in owning up to being a woman too! I am pretty new to aviation and I must say I have been impressed at the camaraderie I've experienced thus far - I feel privileged to have been able to develop such a passion and to be amongst others who are also DRIVEN!! However, SO FEW OF THEM ARE WOMEN!

I also recently read about some research done recently at Arizona State, Embry-Riddle and several other institutions about the paucity of women coming through collegiate aviation. Article stated that approx. "6% of all US pilots are women with only 3 % of airline transport pilots are women". I'm sure this doesnt surprise anyone, but somehow putting it in stark figures like that still jolts. Particularly if as MLS-12D suggests there is no difference between males and females when it comes to ability.

So why is this so?

Certainly, the culture around when I was in my teens and early adulthood - so long ago now I dont fancy dwelling on defining the interval :rolleyes: - just didnt support the notion of women being engineers, pilots, busdrivers etc etc. And I got unknowingly swamped or persuaded by this, so I imagine lots of others of my peers did too. But I would have thought that for young people these days the cultural thing would have to be far less a culprit.

I guess I have to be wrong about that though as it cant be the genes that are to blame for so few women pilots - surely.

One thing that I have had a couple of times now though is an observation about how women - me being an example - tend to have a better (more sensitive or intuitive is what is meant here) "feel" for the controls, at least in the early stages of training. Is this significant? Have others (women that is) had this reaction to their early efforts or heard of similar?

In closing I have to say though that the blokes I've met thus far (the pilots - bit different with the engineers) are simply fantastic guys and have provided me with tremendous inspiration and support. Thanks guys.

Whirlybird

3rd Aug 2002, 11:51

Rio-vfr,

Don't worry; I have no intention of deleting this thread; it's getting rather interesting!

I said what I did at the start because of earlier experiences with threads of this sort on PPRuNe. Way back I was accused of being "obsessed with gender". And in many threads like this you end up with some well meaning male saying something like: "Well, I think that women pilots are good; I don't see them as any different from men; they might even be better". Well, I hate to criticise anything that's meant as a compliment, but I see that as emphasising that the sky is blue, when I've commented that a surprising number of people say it's purple with green stripes! (Comments about if God meant women to fly he'd have made the sky pink are not allowed here, or I really WILL pull this thread!!!! :D )

Anyway, when I was growing up the same thing applied. In fact, I remember a conversation with a teacher at school when I was about 8. She asked us what we wanted to do; all the boys wanted to be engine drivers or similar, the girls wanted to be teachers or nurses. She asked if any girls wanted to do anything different, and I remember thinking, in almost suicidal despair: "What else can girls do?" A little later I read about women being parachuted into enemy territory as secret agents in the Second World War, and decided that would do for me! I longed for a war for years. Never occurred to me that I could actually fly the aircraft taking them there, or do anything similar in peacetime, not till I was a lot older. There weren't many female role models for adventurous young girls back then. (I'm not 93, honest; we often don't realise how quickly the world has changed)

On women being sensitive/intuitive when learning to fly; I sometimes wonder if I had that knocked out of me by instructors who seemed determined to break flying down into component parts. It often felt that way, but I'm not sure. You can't do that with helicopter flying; hovering has to be done completely by feel, so maybe that's why I seemed to find it easier, at least in the beginning. But as with all generalisations about men and women, I suspect there are many many exceptions.

I too have found that many men have been helpful, encouraging, or simply treated me as just another pilot (I prefer the last of those). I didn't feel it needed to be said - a bit like emphasising that the sky is blue. But that's just me.

One other thing - you're from "downunder". When I was flying in the US, women pilots were still in a minority, but no-one seemed even remotely surprised that I was a pilot. Other British women have told me the same thing. Anyone noticd any other cultural differences?

Penguina

3rd Aug 2002, 12:29

I've had this comment from two instructors (who are not slow in picking up the faults either!). The first attributed it to the fact that I am a musician and thus want to treat the machine like an instrument, feeling what it wants to do and then helping it do so! (hmmmm!) Gender didn't come into it at all.

The second commented on this common attribute between women, saying that men tend to get more stressed about 'controlling' the plane in turbulence and refusing to acknowledge their subordination to the fluidity of the air. I found this quite an interesting observation for a fairly old fashioned guy to be making - you could interpret it as 'men are overcontrolling' or as 'women are more naturally passive'... :eek:

Perhaps we don't encounter much stigma in GA and private aviation because most people involved are at least a little bit unusual, and it takes more than gender to disquiet people, even if we are still the minority. Noteworthy though, that we are much more of a minority in airlines (3% for God's sake!!!! still, boardrooms have only 2% I heard) and the military than private flying. Where it is institutionalised, men rule.

VictorBravo

3rd Aug 2002, 13:25

I have seen reports on the results of studies which compares the abilities of women and men in flying, and there are some differences. But the conclusion in everything I've seen and read is whatever specific advantages we have as a result of gender, it is a pretty even at the end of the day - and it is always down to the abilities of the individual.

Odd attitudes to women? I've only had one comment levelled at me that I could call sexist, and the guy who made it "had his own issues". So I don't think it counts.

But Mr Bravo (not a pilot) almost always gets approached first when we go to an aviation shop or museum. When he gently points out that they failed to pick the pilot, I haven't had anyone continue to talk to him on the basis that that he must be joking. I think the approach is just an assumption based on statistical probability rather than sexism as such.

RW05

3rd Aug 2002, 14:35

I've never had a problem being a female pilot in this country, or not that I've noticed. I'm also an engineer, and have been since way before women engineers were acceptable. Had lots of problems in the beginning, but none now.
Had to have a bit of a giggle though when I flew once in Portugal. Now Portugese women just don't fly, so when I started hauling the aircraft out of the hanger I think every man for miles around turned up to watch. It didn't help my confidence that I'm a PA28 pilot, and the only aircraft available was a Cessna 152, which I had a whole hour of previous experience on. I did the best take off and most perfect landing I'd done in a long time!

Keef

3rd Aug 2002, 23:24

Went with my younger daughter a few years ago to buy herself a new car. I was only there because I got a discount on new cars of that make.

But would the salesman talk to her - would he heck! He patronised and ignored her until she said "C'mon Dad, let's go where they'll sell ME a car."

We did, too.

Never seen anything like that in flying.

Maybe the statistics are skewed, but I seem to know a lot of female pilots.

LowNSlow

4th Aug 2002, 05:20

Keef maybe you're just a tart :D I have only met 4 female pilots and one of them is Whirly (sorry 5, I met a DanDair HS 748 cap'n in Shetlands many moons ago).

PS I've had similar experiences with my eldest daughter :( . Don't expect to have them with my youngest girl though :D

javelin

4th Aug 2002, 10:38

Re Engineers - can we have some more lady engineers like the FLS one at LGW - she brightened up an otherwise frustrating morning. Not sexist, just grateful :D

p.s. My IR instructor was a lady, a Right Honourable no less. She carried a baseball bat next to her for when you got things wrong - I was scared. Hi Vicky !

AerBabe

4th Aug 2002, 12:51

LNS, are you including me in that count? ;)

distaff_beancounter

4th Aug 2002, 13:07

Penquina states that there are <3% women in the airlines, & I would guess that it is still only 5% to 10% in GA.

And, of course, women hate computers & the internet.

So, how come, there are so many females, on this forum?

Must be the warm welcome & support, that we get from all the lovely fellas ;)

Penguina

4th Aug 2002, 14:16

distaff,

But how can we be so sure that they are all what they say they are? Maybe they're just wannabes! :p

maggioneato

4th Aug 2002, 18:59

Have noticed what looks to me a look of amusement when I turn up, as I am well past my sell by date, and it's pretty obvious a much younger woman was expected,I have no problem with that, and have found everyone in aviation so friendly, even the young lads, would'nt have thought they would have had any time for an old biddy like me.:D

Keef

4th Aug 2002, 19:41

LNS - true, I look like a tart in my Sunday dress (vicars and tarts party, anyone?)

I had a female instructor for part of my IMC rating, and for one of my IMC renewals. Very good she was, too.

I've met at least half a dozen "lady" pilots - including Aerbabe and Whirly - and treat them as I would treat anyone else. Wellllll. . . just a little tease, perhaps...

nap

4th Aug 2002, 19:59

My husband (also a pilot) had his car insurance up for renewal and got a quote off the internet from a major insurance company. Part of the renewal quote required employment details for both of us, when asked for his job description he wrote pilot, the computer responded with "commercial pilot?", to which he clicked on "yes" and continued to my details. So when asked for my job description he again wrote pilot, again the computer asked "commercial pilot?" to which he clicked yes (don't you know whats coming?) and the computer responded....
ERROR INVALID CAREER...
Might have just been a glitch, funny none the less and just for the record I agree with whoever it was that said the reaction you get is not so much prejudice but misunderstanding. :confused:

paulo

4th Aug 2002, 21:36

not on topic, but for anyone interested in the history of women pilots... worth a read is Women of the Air by Judy Lomax. Out of print now, but web-buyable if you hunt a bit.

chrisN

4th Aug 2002, 23:26

Keef, LNS and anyone else interested:

1. I have known Keef for over 30 years, and before I converted to atheism I helped several vicars to dress (only the ceremonial part!) and saw many vicar's (and several vicars') robes; I frankly do not believe there is any combination of Keef and vicar's dress which could result in him looking like a tart.

2. I have nothing to say on the subject of women piloting abilities per se (and Whirlybird seems to prefer men not to say anything on that topic anyway) but on a tangentially related aspect, an instructor observed to me years ago that when nubile women were present on a gliding field, many men tended to act differently - and not for the better. He opined that male bad flying and ground behaviour, and hence potential accidents, were more likely in mixed company, because of that effect, not through any fault of the women concerned. With some foreboding, I wonder what opinions and observations people have on that?

Echo Echo

4th Aug 2002, 23:52

Being the only woman pilot in my flying club I will say that I don't hang around the hanger as much as I used to. Just got tired of the continually raunchy topics being discussed. I was fortunate enough to have a male flying instructor that doesnt' have a prejucided bone in his body. Too bad the other members don't have as open a mind as he has. I thought an instrument rating would help matters a little but it hasn't made any difference.
I guess I'm used to the whole thing and it doesn't bother me too much any more. I fly more than they do and probably enjoy it twice as much! :)

Rob_L

5th Aug 2002, 04:28

Lady pilot on being approached by Morrocan refueller earlier this year. Fueller " Are you alone?" Lady pilot "Yes", Concerned fueller " Who is going to fly the plane?"

In some parts of the world time moves slowly!!!!!

411A

5th Aug 2002, 06:10

Female pilots.

Some of the First Officers I have flown with have been female, and in nearly every case they could fly rings 'round the boys.
They have to be twice a good as the boys just to stay even in todays' competitive environment.

More power to 'em.

LowNSlow

5th Aug 2002, 06:11

Aerbabe yup, you are definitely in that count of 5. Maybe I need to get out more :D :D

Whirlybird

5th Aug 2002, 07:17

ChrisN,

The reason I said I didn't want men to comment on women's flying abilities was because I'd seen several threads on similar subjects where post after post went somthing like this:
"The women pilots I've known have been as good as the men"
"Some have been even better"
"I'm not prejudiced; flying has nothing to do with gender"
"I think women make good pilots"

Etc etc etc, yawn yawn yawn.

Yes, the sky is blue, women can walk and talk, men can cook occasionally.... I didn't want to have to trawl through simplistic and obvious statements that don't need to be made. As originator of the thread, I wanted to have that option.

Do you get my point?

distaff_beancounter

5th Aug 2002, 09:21

With regard to chrisN's point (2), I usually fly with other PPL's from the same flying school. It shares the costs, we go on longer trips, & I get bored on my own :D

Anyhow, my shared trips are about half with women PPLs & the other half with men. So, from my limited experience, I find that I am perfectly happy, sharing the flying with either gender. There is no real difference, although I would only fly with someone who I trust, regardless of their sex.

I regularly fly a twin with a male PPL, usually plus another couple of male friends as passengers. And YES, when we land anywhere, people on the ground usually assume that ANY of the other 3 must be the pilot, but certainly not me! :D

Nearly all my training was with male intructors, & I never had a any problems with them.

The only instructor who really made me work hard, was for my IMC rating, where I was given a really hard time, made to fly to almost IR standards, & was not allowed to get away with any sloppy flying. My everlasting thanks to Lucy, as she really gave me the competance & confidance to fly on instruments :cool:

Captsumday

5th Aug 2002, 11:57

This is fascinating!

I see that a number of posts are saying more or less the same thing - that while there may be differences between male and female pilots, overall what counts is an individual's attributes and approach to the job. And that for many of us, there is a sort of higher plane of existence as a pilot.

So with that in mind, I have pulled a quote from another forum and topic because I think it says it all:

"When you become a pilot you join a group of people who enjoy their chosen career or hobby like no other person on earth. Its a passion you can feel and where you see the view change every single moment. When one of us gets cleared to a higher altitude than man could ever hope to fly we all feel that loss. We mourn briefly but choose to remember quickly with a drink and a smile and always remember those who fly with us. I hope those close to this young aviator can feel the spirit that now flies with all of us. We always remember."

This is from Ozbiggles posted on a very tragic and moving topic of the death of a young female Qantas trainee in a two-plane collision on landing at Moorabbin Airport, Melbourne Australia. Forum = Dunnunda & Godzone. Topic = Mb Collision

I think you'll agree with me that these words are deeply moving but also help to explain why, for many of us at least, or for much of the time, the passion of piloting transends the gender thing.

Cheers

Genghis the Engineer

5th Aug 2002, 12:58

One thing that interests me about this thread, is that many posters, have admitted to being female, I'd noticed their posts before, but nothing in their names or in the contents of their posts to indicate any gender. As somebody said, statistical likelihood tends to make one assume that they were probably male - an evidently incorrect (and of-course, irrelevant) assumption.

At risk of upsetting Whirly's dictat, I saw a study once on parachute accident rates broken down by gender and experience. Female parachutists with little experience tended proportionately to have far more accidents, and more experienced female parachutists - well, never had any accidents. The lecturer blamed it on the relationship between testosterone (or lack thereof) and circumstance - inexperienced males tended to fight to get a result more than females, experienced females just wanted to get it perfect and didn't try to show off, whilst experienced males were routinely playing silly-******s and injuring themselves. By that argument, we should treat inexperienced female pilots as less safe than inexperienced male pilots, and experienced female pilots as better than experienced male pilots. Not sure I want to go down that path, but it's an interesting thought.

There's a poster over on Rotorheads who certainly wouldn't like that approach considering his response to some of Whirly's more recent posts. Given what a prat hes' made of himself in some of them, I'm almost inclined to suggest it be adopted.

G

Whirlybird

5th Aug 2002, 18:40

Genghis,

Where, precisely, is the cut-off line between "inexperienced" and "experienced", where we women go from being worst to best? :D :D :D

BTW, I may have gone a little over the top with my "rules" about what you can post on this thread. Please feel free to chat amongst yourselves, about any damn thing you like. :D

Wide-Body

5th Aug 2002, 21:33

+Hi folks,

Sorry posing reply under "blokeys" title -not at my own computer. 2 thoughts for you ...... as Captain routing through security at Manchester in full uniform F/O was asked "Where are you going sir" whereas I through the barrier 2 seconds later got "morning luv!"

Also at a recent light aircraft rally based at Cranfield I felt like haveing a T Shirt made up. On the front What? When? Where?
and Who flies it? On the back The type (excuse me not revealing which one) it's age, my current base and ........ me actually. The final question alway being met with a look of suprise and "oh!" (Obviously I should be thin old and of a 1930s (male) body design - as opposed to gorgeously curvaceous, late 30s, and a girlie!)

Seriously professionally I have ben met for the last 13 years (7 in command) with utterly EQUAL treatment whlst in the light aircraft world their is sceptiscm. Only a few more years to go! Like another (99)

Diddly:)

Genghis the Engineer

6th Aug 2002, 06:15

Dunno Whirly, probably about CPL level?

Seriously, the concept has primary benefit in annoying chauvanists, and no doubt with a bit of modification, many other 'ists who sorely deserve winding up.

A nice variation, which I've used once or twice, is to explain carefully to a Southern US racist that blacks are genetically superior to US whites since slaves were specifically selected for their strength and intelligence and American whites were the dregs of European society who couldn't cope so ran away. By which argument, the US, and particularly the former slave states, should logically be run by the blacks who will almost certainly do a far better job of it.

Very little credibility to either argument most times, but as an excuse to wind-up biggots, worth having.

Genghis

Male, white, happy to wind up anybody who thinks this is important.

Maarten

6th Aug 2002, 10:27

Although I am a pilot of the male variety, I quite enjoyed this link:

http://www.skygod.com/quotes/womenfly.html

If this works, it should direct you to the Great Aviation Quotes website which has a female pilot quotes bit to it.

The rest of the site is a real treat as well.

Maarten

Penguina

6th Aug 2002, 11:54

Diddly,
I'm sure, in the west, that few professional pilots would bat a eyelid at a female colleague, but not sure if the public are the same. I was on a go flight recently and the FO, who was a woman, was doing the cabin talking bit. I was in a party of about 30, and every single one though the voice was a flight attendant. When I said, no that was the pilot, they all said 'well that explains the hard landing'. (I noticed there was a strong wind across the runway, which explained it better to me.) They seem to be little things that expose preconceptions.

The quotation from captsumday reminds me of that Yeats poem about the Irish airman, how does it go? The years to come, a waste of breath, when compared with this life, this death. Or something. I'll have to look it up now!

distaff_beancounter

6th Aug 2002, 18:17

I know that I shall meet my fate
Somewhere among the clouds above;
Those that I fight I do not hate,
Those that I guard I do not love;
My country is Kiltartan Cross,
My countrymen Kiltartan's poor,
No likely end could bring them loss
Or leave them happier than before.
Nor law, nor duty bade me fight,
Nor public men, nor cheering crowds,
A lonely impulse of delight
Drove to this tumult in the clouds
I balanced all, brought all to mind,
The years to come seemed waste of breath,
A waste of breath the years behind
In balance with this life, this death.

W B Yeates 1919

Penguina

7th Aug 2002, 12:16

Ah ha! That's the one! Thanks! :)

distaff_beancounter

7th Aug 2002, 12:40

No problem Penquina, Yeates is one of my favourite poets, so I recognised your quote.

So, is this another difference with female pilots. Do more of us like poetry, or are there are few old fashioned romantic males out there? ;)

tacpot

7th Aug 2002, 15:14

What's poetry!?

EI_Sparks

7th Aug 2002, 16:52

distaff: yes, guys like poetry and romance too - but it depends on the poem (and on the romantic partner involved).

:rolleyes:

Foyl

8th Aug 2002, 10:29

I read absolutely ages ago the results of a study of accident statistics and gender influence (and cannot remember the source unfortunately - I would love to be able to post it to verify the following). This is a generalisation only.

1. Women are less likely to get into trouble in the first place because they are more likely to follow procedures and less likely to take risks they deem unacceptable.

2. Having got into trouble, men are more likely to make a successful recovery.

Conclusion: depends on individual ability, and works out pretty much even.

Whirlybird

8th Aug 2002, 10:50

The trouble with almost any of these studies of gender differences is that you get hugely overlapping populations. What that means, to take a very simple example, is that while men tend to be taller than women, you'll find large numbers of both in the middle range. So while it tends to be a fascinating way of getting a grant to spend a few years studying, it doesn't tell you much about individuals, who have an annoying habit of not fitting into neat categories. That applies even more to something as complicated as flying, than it does to simple physical characteristics. And especially to something that can be altered by practice, motivation, learning, experience, and a whole host of other things - you can't alter your height, but you can change your flying ability. So...interesting, perhaps...but only to the psychologists.

pataud

8th Aug 2002, 13:04

To my mind, the only problem for a man flying with a (pretty) female pilot is... keeping his blood cold :D !

Final 3 Greens

8th Aug 2002, 14:26

Wide Body

Sorry to read your comments.

I'm a PPL and I respect UK ATPLs per se. In fact I have been fortunate enough to benefit from their experience and advice which has been given freely in every respect.

I had just settled in my seat on a Big Airlines 747 at Cairo last year when the captain made a professional PA to welcome us on board.

Shortly afterwards the two other pax in the middle three seats (females travelling together) had a shocked conversation on the lines of "ohmigod its a woman pilot.")

Talk about shooting your own gender in the foot.