A380 Landing Short on Pax Video?

[Airbubba]

Some outfit called the Air Safety Group has posted a video of a 'nameless' airline's A380 supposedly landing short of the threshold. This looks like a seat back screen, after the touchdown a pop-up message asks 'How did we do?'

The video is being retweeted on aviation sites like @CivMilAir and will probably make its way into the news cycle on a slow weekend.

This video has been sent to the ASG it shows a serious incident of an ****** A380 landing short Would anyone with any information about this landing please send it to [email protected]

http://twitter.com/ASG_EGTT/status/1089144366596280320

One of the comments on the original post suggests that the touchdown is normal while the video is several seconds behind which seems plausible. I'd find it hard to believe that an A380 could land short without someone else noticing.

[tlott]

In my experience those cameras often have a several second delay. It's obvious when watching for rotation or touchdown as a pax.

[lomapaseo]

Is the touchdown confirmed at the same time by both the video plus the sound? If so I don't see a several second delay.

Any chance for picture foreshortening?

[tlott]

Is the touchdown confirmed at the same time by both the video plus the sound? If so I don't see a several second delay.

Any chance for picture foreshortening?
But the sound is the ambient cabin sound, not from the video feed. You can hear the touchdown before you see it on the (possibly delayed) video feed. Makes sense to me, (if my brain is working this morning, anyway).

Personally, watching these video feeds as a pax on many flights, it looks normal to me. Maybe some IFE systems have more delay than others, but they are all delayed. Takes time to encode the video from the source and stream it to the IFE.

[LeftHeadingNorth]

If they indeed touched down short they would have collected the last part of the approach lights which would have caused substantial damage to both the plane and the lights (!). Something doesn't add up.

[DaveReidUK]

Methinks that the somewhat pompously self-described "Air Safety Group UK" hasn't done their credibility any good by posting this nonsense.

Has anybody ever heard of this "voluntary effort to improve safety for the travelling public since 1964" ?

https://airsafetygroup.org

[a330pilotcanada]

Check the vasi “all white”...

Yes much different perspective from the flight deck but a good cue to suggest nothing was amiss. I have had 8 sectors as a passenger on the A-380-800 and all landings have been firm........

But then again who am I to judge....

[Zeffy]

Sam‏ @samnagy 5h5 hours ago

More
Replying to @ASG_EGTT (https://twitter.com/ASG_EGTT) @AviationSafety (https://twitter.com/AviationSafety) @avherald (https://twitter.com/avherald)It’s not a serious incident. The camera video is delayed on all A380’s so the sound of touchdown is ‘live’ and the video on screen comes through after a few seconds.

[DaveReidUK]

Tweet now deleted.

Hopefully the airline-that-cannot-be-named, whom they accused of landing an A380 short of the runway, will be understanding in this instance.

[Wannabe Flyer]

So that explains why all tail cams not the 380 I have flown in the last month have been switched off on a large 380 inventory holder. On the first flight I thought might not be working but on the subsequent three flights they were also off....

[Capt Fathom]

This thread is useless... without the video! :}

[glideher]

This thread is useless... without the video! :}

i would love to see a video as well

[DaveReidUK]

This thread is useless... without the video!

Well you're half right. :O

[Jack330]

I have the video, it's everywhere on whatsapp, I just don't know how to load it here but PM and I'll share...

[Jack330]

https://streamable.com/3jfb3

[ManaAdaSystem]

https://streamable.com/3jfb3

Bite me, but that looks like a landing before the lights! White PAPI, but the camera is high up so that’s normal.

[ironbutt57]

Bite me, but that looks like a landing before the lights! White PAPI, but the camera is high up so that’s normal.


sounded like one...

[Jetjock330]

Its been investigated found to be a delayed video feed of a few seconds between real time reality and where it was 5 seconds before!

[Morane]

the video clearly shows the name of the airline that can not be named

[Doors to Automatic]

There was a very similar video posted ten years ago:

https://youtu.be/lOmGd4qpsyk

Touchdown at exactly the same point but on this one you can see the spot of the real touchdown when the spoliers deploy.

[Intruder]

It is also quite possible that the runway had a displaced threshold, and the pilot landed on good runway surface, not in an overrun.

[172_driver]

I like the "Thank you for flying Ethiad Airways, how did we do?" at the end of the recording :D

[fatbus]

It appears normal . Move on !

[DaveReidUK]

the video clearly shows the name of the airline that can not be named

See post #9.

[PoppaJo]

There was a very similar video posted ten years ago:

https://youtu.be/lOmGd4qpsyk

Touchdown at exactly the same point but on this one you can see the spot of the real touchdown when the spoliers deploy.
Let me clarify a few things having previously flown the thing. That Sydney Emirates one is live video and that’s a undershoot. Just be thankful it wasn’t the other end. Spoilers don’t deploy at the speed of the 737 or A320, initial deployment is only 5 degree/sec.

I am not overly convinced the original discussion video is delayed either (AUH 31L). Whilst it’s very hard to see, I’m seeing handling characteristics of landing short.

[mickjoebill]

One way of measuring the time delay is to simultaneously video and observe the beginning of push back or the arrival at the gate. Do this by Videoing the seat back display but observe the pushback through the window, when pushback starts shout now! so your voice will be recorded. Replay to examine the time delay between your voice and when the onscreen display reveals begining of pushback. Also works for the end of flight.

[Capn Bloggs]

Ignoring the initial 'duck' of the camera that gives what I suspect the illusion of an early touchdown it looks like the mains contacted probably not far off from the first of the TDZ lines.
Agree. Much ado about nothing.

[Capt Fathom]

Whilst it’s very hard to see, I’m seeing handling characteristics of landing short.

For the benefit of the rest of us here, what exactly are you seeing?

[Ollie Onion]

Looked like a normal landing to me, just a delay on the video feed.

[ManaAdaSystem]

Why would there be a delay on the video feed?

[Jesse Pinkman]

Why would there be a delay on the video feed?


Have you ever flown an Airbus?

[ManaAdaSystem]

No, but I know at what speed electrons move, and they don’t take 5 seconds from camera to screen.

[DaveReidUK]

Haven't we been here before?

From 2010:

PPRuNe: Emirates 380 landing from tail camera (https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/408234-emirates-380-landing-tail-camera-2.html)

[portmanteau]

172 Driver post 23; Its ok you misspelt the airline name so they can't touch you....

[Airbubba]

No, but I know at what speed electrons move, and they don’t take 5 seconds from camera to screen.

I'm not exactly sure that's the reason for the latency in rendering the video. ;)

[Doors to Automatic]

I stand corrected. There is definitely NO time delay.

Take a look at this one.......

https://youtu.be/jEika8TQ2HA

[NWA SLF]

Is it possible they delay due to what happened to the American DC-10 in Chicago? If I remember correctly amounts awarded were higher because the passengers watched their crash from the front facing television. American removed these immediately after the accident. I'm not aware of anybody using them again until the A380. We should be able to look over the captain's shoulder just like in a taxi and us passengers give advice like are you sure you are taking the fastest route, watch out for the turbulence, etc.

[Chu Chu]

One day last summer, I sat in seat 50H of an A-330, watching the downward-facing camera as we landed on pristine white concrete, with the the first isolated tire marks just coming into view at the top of the screen. I heard a few gasps, which seemed to be from passengers watching the same view I was.

I didn't think about video delay at the time, but that's the obvious explanation. (I remember that the touchdown came just as I was thinking that we were a few seconds from landing -- and I guess on the video, we were.)

[George Glass]

The landing at Sydney on 16R was definitely short. The tire marks on the piano keys were there for months after. Sitting at the hold point watching landings in a gusty quartering tailwind or southerly buster on 16R can be entertaining. But no laughing. There but for the grace of God go I.........

[Bull at a Gate]

Delay as an explanation for this video? I call bull. Videos of the view from the tail camera of a landing A380 are available all over the internet. Some show the view from the tail camera on a video screen, a pan to the window to see outside and then a pan back to the video screen. The two views, inside and outside, are synchronised. Try this one for example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27Tr2w5Zk6c

I agree with Doors to Automatic. There is no delay.

[Jesse Pinkman]

No, but I know at what speed electrons move, and they don’t take 5 seconds from camera to screen.

No, you really haven't flown an Airbus, have you?

[Out Of Trim]

The delay is due to the distance from the main gear to the camera in the tail! The gear arrives at the touch down point before the tail arrives over the same point.

[Chu Chu]

Delay is inherent in digital video. If activate the camera on my smartphone and wave my hand in front of the lens, I can easily get the hand on the screen moving in the opposite direction from the object itself. That's only a fraction of a second, but it's not hard to believe that IFE equipment (and whatever else may between the camera and the screen) introduces more complexity and more delay. The delay might also vary depending on the demand on the processor(s) at any given time.

[neville_nobody]

Delay as an explanation for this video? I call bull. Videos of the view from the tail camera of a landing A380 are available all over the internet.

No there is a delay in the video. There was one doing the rounds years ago when they were a novelty, showing in daylight what appeared to be a A380 touching down on the piano keys. However if you watched spoilers there was no movement until several seconds later demostrating where the touchdown was on the video. Add to that if all these aircraft were really landing that short they would be wiping out fences, LLZ Antennas and approach lights.

[mrdeux]

There was one doing the rounds years ago when they were a novelty, showing in daylight what appeared to be a A380 touching down on the piano keys. However if you watched spoilers there was no movement until several seconds later demostrating where the touchdown was on the video.

The 380 spoiler rise is quite slow, and does not happen straight away. In at least one of the videos that was doing the rounds the spoilers were fully extended when the nose went past the PAPI.

[Pratt X 3]

The answer to short or not could lie in the landing or turn-off lights.

[neville_nobody]

The 380 spoiler rise is quite slow, and does not happen straight away. In at least one of the videos that was doing the rounds the spoilers were fully extended when the nose went past the PAPI.

They should start moving as soon as the wheel touch down, it may take a while to get to full extend though. The night landing footage are to hard to really tell when they first move. As mentioned before the lack of lights on the first video are also a give away that the aircraft was still airborne.

[Voenos]

I don't really care either way, but if the video feed is digital (and it most likely is) there MUST be a delay due to the digital compression and decompression of the video feed from the cameras. Given that these are non-essential, entertainment cameras (I assume) the priority would not even be on making this delay as short as possible, so you can be sure there is one. Another delay is added due to the IP network infrastructure feeding the displays around the plane (again, non-essential, entertainment). Switching/routing gear can and will add non-negligible delay. Also, I assume each display is basically its own computer with an operating system and layers of object programming, again, creating little delay. The TFT displays themselves have a relatively big delay (compared to CRT/plasma they are at least 4000x slower). So, from a technical point of view, the delay is there and has to be there. It may not add up to be seconds, but half a sec to a second is totally normal.

[derjodel]

Yeah, even smartphone camera has a noticable delay, and it‘s a compact, single unit system...