Alliance Airlines

[B772]

Alliance appear to be doing well with their all Fokker fleet. Shareholders have been well rewarded over the past 5 years. It looks like they even have a F70 fitted out like a VIP aircraft for charters.

[PoppaJo]

Alliance appear to be doing well with their all Fokker fleet. Shareholders have been well rewarded over the past 5 years. It looks like they even have a F70 fitted out like a VIP aircraft for charters.
They have most certainly benefited from poor decision making at fellow carriers resulting in work being thrown at them here there and everywhere. Cough....Virgin.....Cough....

Incompetence at certain carriers shows no signs of slowing down so things no doubt things will continue booming...

[Rated De]

Sir Dennis Buchanan had a keen eye for the market and opportunity. An all Fokker fleet in Queensland prospering today is in part due his understanding of the region and the market.
Although Flight West ceased operations the company exists under another tail and appears capably led and serves well its intended market.

[Berealgetreal]

A mate of mine works at Alliance. He describes Virgin as the equivalent of winning lotto for Alliance. Nobody could have imagined it in their wildest dreams.

[krismiler]

They were advertising for Pilots recently, might be attractive for a cashed up late 50s expat who’s sick of the ME/Asia and wants to come home.

[geeup]

What happens if Virgin sorts their **** out?

Unlikely to happen but possible.

[NWS Inop]

From what mates in the operation are saying, they also have their own FIFO and tourist charter work and are looking to expand their market reach in the coming year, so not totally dependent on Virgin et al...

Once my exisiting bond is up, I'll be applying...

[Berealgetreal]

If you want progression you won't beat Alliance or VARA F100.

[LostProperty]

It looks like they even have a F70 fitted out like a VIP aircraft for charters.
I think that Fokker belonged to the Dutch Royal Family and was bought last year fully VIP equipped.

[Tommy Bahama]

What happens if Virgin sorts their **** out?

Unlikely to happen but possible.

The funniest thing I've read on PPRune in long long time.......

[Going Nowhere]

I think that Fokker belonged to the Dutch Royal Family and was bought last year fully VIP equipped.

Correct,

There's also a F100 in VIP config but I think it's stored at YMEN.

[VH DSJ]

Alliance
F100 Captain - $122,675
F100 F/O - $82,819

Are these figures their current pay rates? A little on the low side if you ask me.

[lucille]

Are these figures their current pay rates? A little on the low side if you ask me.

Maybe rostering is good, quality of life good, a happy crew to work with, no back of the clock flights, good management team.... money isn’t everything. Self worth, self fulfilment and sleeping in your own bed count for a lot. Ask any CX, EK pilot.

[industry insider]

The Fokkers are getting old though and more expensive to maintain. Luckily Alliance did buy some to part out but that can't last forever. Some of the Alliance market, apart from their own FIFO, is flying for VARA when the VARA F100s are tech which seems to be quite often. At some stage Alliance will have to start replacing aircraft as the miners want newer types, replacing a whole fleet of Fokkers is going to be expensive.

[galdian]

Just wondering what you'd replace them with?
What's in ready international supply, older so depreciated and cheap(er) to buy but with proven reliability and fits the bottom line?
Or is there another "niche" type in limited supplies but being run out by major airlines at a discount like the B717/F100 are/were??

737-5? A319? JungleJet variants?

Interesting exercise.

[exfocx]

I can understand the argument supporting 20 to 30 yr old aircraft for FIFO due to the lack of utilisation, but not for thin RPT runs. The US airlines don't use clapped out jets.

[patty50]

I can understand the argument supporting 20 to 30 yr old aircraft for FIFO due to the lack of utilisation, but not for thin RPT runs. The US airlines don't use clapped out jets.

What are you on about? The big 3 have some ancient planes.

Allegiant is apparently the most consistently profitable airline in the US, nearly all of their planes second hand and only got rid of the last of their 30+ year old MD-80s late last year.

[exfocx]

patty50, I was talking the 2nd tier, like Skywest etc. Have a relative now with Delta who was SWA 'til 18 mths ago. They're not flying 30 yrs old F100s, neither is United Express and same with American, all ERJs or CRJs with the possibility of C220s coming, I think.

[machtuk]

Are these figures their current pay rates? A little on the low side if you ask me.

I thought the same, cant find the post now? Something fishy about that!
I wouldn't get out of bed for those $$$$ as a Capt! I know Uni lecturers making better money & they don't have to worry about killing hundreds on any one day whilst on the job!

[Arthur D]

I thought the same, cant find the post now? Something fishy about that!
I wouldn't get out of bed for those $$$$ as a Capt! I know Uni lecturers making better money & they don't have to worry about killing hundreds on any one day whilst on the job!

Get your hand off it Darrel.

Poor choice of words perhaps.....

Hopefully killing people is not on any pilots mind.

[onehitwonder]

Can certainly say that every Alliance driver i know, loves the company and the lifestyle.
Good management, work, aircraft and crew

[Kulwin Park]

Just wondering what you'd replace them with?
What's in ready international supply, older so depreciated and cheap(er) to buy but with proven reliability and fits the bottom line?
Or is there another "niche" type in limited supplies but being run out by major airlines at a discount like the B717/F100 are/were??

737-5? A319? JungleJet variants?

Interesting exercise.

Airbus A220's would be an ideal replacement on some routes. By just buying a few to slow down the flyig hours on the 70's & 100's would give the Fokkers an extra life.

[airdualbleedfault]

One new A220 would probably cost as much as half the Alliance fleet :}

[stormfury]

Airbus A220's would be an ideal replacement on some routes. By just buying a few to slow down the flyig hours on the 70's & 100's would give the Fokkers an extra life.
I also initially thought the A220 would fit the bill but the cost is probably prohibitive. If it was my train-set I’d be looking closely at the MRJ. Given all the delays and obstacles Alliance might be able to get a good deal taking on some of the cancelled orders.

One new A220 would probably cost as much as half the Alliance fleet :}
Either way it will be costly, and the longer they delay even making a decision the more it will cost them in the long run - IMHO.

[Icarus2001]

If it was my train-set I’d be looking closely at the MRJ I am not sure I would want to be the first in Australia to introduce a new type with the regulatory pain that would cause. The Embraer jets are known and proven, already operated in Australia with some experienced crews and engineers. The A220 would be interesting, the manufacturer would be very keen I am sure, lots of assistance.

Alliance have done well as a niche carrier and they seem to be able to capitalise on opportunities very well. They are, however, like a trucking company with a fleet of very old trucks that will be off the road shortly. The lease costs of new generation jets will be a shock.

[ghyde]

Alliance bought the entire Austrian F70/100 fleet some years ago.

They still have around 7 aircraft stored in Europe waiting to head south.

They expect to stay with F70/100 until the end of the decade

[Berealgetreal]

Google says a220 90 mil per unit. Alliance bought 22 F100s a few years back for 18 mil from memory.
Rumour has it VARA paid 16 for one.

I reckon the Fokker will go another 20 years. The only things that would change this would be something like a spar life limit, rising fuel costs or spare parts company closing down.

I think they’ll have the capital by then to handle the lease costs.

[4EvahLearning]

They expect to stay with F70/100 until the end of the decade
Well, that isn't too far away - about 12 months by my estimate.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

spare parts company closing down.
I believe Alliance already own most of the spare parts. I've heard other operators come to them if they need something.

[VH DSJ]

I am not sure I would want to be the first in Australia to introduce a new type with the regulatory pain that would cause. The Embraer jets are known and proven, already operated in Australia with some experienced crews and engineers. The A220 would be interesting, the manufacturer would be very keen I am sure, lots of assistance.

I agree with you there. Furthermore, there should be more Ejets on the second hand market now as companies replace their Ejets with the new generation E2. They should be much cheaper to either buy or lease now than ever before.

[wheels_down]

In 10-20 years there is going to be an oversupply of 319/320s on the market from those carriers that rode the 2000-2010 expansion wave.

319s will be going for peanuts. Some are already being scrapped.

[Chocks Away]

I'm with you Wheels Down, as the A318 & 19 have/are being discarded by many airlines as they upgrade capacity and can be picked up for a song. The A318 not so much, as not as many were produced while most were scrapped for parts as they got more worth than an operating unit... but it would be ideal IF sourced. Same PCNs as the already approved A320 airstrips.
Other options are interesting too - the MRJ; SSJ and of course the EMB series but I'm abit suss' about those as an operator tried with those and is no more (Maybe it was the management of said Company :} )
What does concern me though, is the sad fact that Australian Aviation has come to this disgraceful point mentioned above, stymying any progress or efficiencies : I am not sure I would want to be the first in Australia to introduce a new type with the regulatory pain that would cause.

[stormfury]

I am not sure I would want to be the first in Australia to introduce a new type with the regulatory pain that would cause. The Embraer jets are known and proven, already operated in Australia with some experienced crews and engineers. The A220 would be interesting, the manufacturer would be very keen I am sure, lots of assistance.

For sure, it would not be as smooth a process as if they were to purchase types already in use but I would think the Mitsubishi conglomerate would go above and beyond to assist in the certification process. Add to this increasing Australia-Japan good-will and cooperation at the higher echelons of government could very well see some ‘persuasion’ to ensure a smooth certification. That said, this is all speculation on a rumour forum.

I would still guess that the A220 would be a little above their budget (IIRC you could nearly get two 73s - some sort of ‘deal’ - for the sticker price of the A220). Although as some have mentioned, the A319 might be a better option that fits with their current business model.

As long as the other carriers are stymied with decision paralysis Alliance should continue to turn a profit.

[industry insider]

I reckon the Fokker will go another 20 years. The only things that would change this would be something like a spar life limit, rising fuel costs or spare parts company closing down.

i don’t think the mining companies will let the Fokker go beyond 30, some even 25, meaning that they will soon looking to modernise.

[ghyde]

Well, that isn't too far away - about 12 months by my estimate.

Typo typo typo , Re-phase next 10 years.

Parts are not an issue as they are regularly scrapping aircraft to recover parts.
Also they purchased Austrians spare engines and spare parts supply.

[neville_nobody]

i don’t think the mining companies will let the Fokker go beyond 30, some even 25, meaning that they will soon looking to modernise.


Mining companies fly in the cheapest option available every time. You could offer them a brand new A220 but if it is 1 cent more expensive to charter than 30 year old F100 they will fly in the F100. That is why Alliance have gone and bought so many aircraft. Noone is going to be able to compete with them in that market space as parts become more scarce. Competitors will be forced to look at other aircraft but won't be able to compete on price, partly in due to the low capital cost of the F100.

[krismiler]

Airbus are nice when they are new but are designed with a limited lifespan in mind and being relatively complicated, will get prohibitively expensive to maintain as they get older.

Modern aircraft are like modern cars, disposable. A Toyota from the mid 2000s was well built and relatively simple, it could be easily fixed and kept on the road. A car built today is full of electronics and not designed to last more than about ten years when it is expected to be scrapped.

A DC3 can be kept flying forever, and there are still plenty of 30 year old Boeing aircraft in the air. However these are much simpler designs which could easily be repaired and it was often high fuel prices which led to them being grounded.

The business model of operating older aircraft and accepting higher maintenance and fuel costs but saving on capital costs because the airframe was a fraction of the price of a new one, might not be viable in 20-30 years time.

Few things are built to last last these days, most things are now made to a price with little expectation of repair and once it goes wrong you are meant to buy another.

[ebt]

Mining companies fly in the cheapest option available every time. You could offer them a brand new A220 but if it is 1 cent more expensive to charter than 30 year old F100 they will fly in the F100. That is why Alliance have gone and bought so many aircraft. Noone is going to be able to compete with them in that market space as parts become more scarce. Competitors will be forced to look at other aircraft but won't be able to compete on price, partly in due to the low capital cost of the F100.

Spot on - and to their credit Alliance have been able to argue that the F100s are still "modern". Given the competitors are also flying them or BAe 146s, there's no driving push to change the fleet any time soon, the driving issue will be the engine support. So far, Rolls-Royce have said that they will support them for the foreseeable future, but that will change at some point.

People I've spoken to at the airline have said the A318 could be appealing, while E-Jet values are going down as more carriers replace them - albeit not yet to the same value as the Fokkers.

Depending on how long the wet-lease stuff for Virgin and occasionally Qantas lasts for, there would be good reason to take in a second fleet type like the E-Jets, but the miners won't pay a cent more for a new type. A220, MRJ, SSJ will never make it into Alliance's fleet.

[pithblot]

Speaking from a passenger's POV, I recon the Alliance Fokkers are ahead of the competition. They are more comfortable, with bigger seats, more leg room and a proper stand up loo.

[Icarus2001]

As long as the other carriers are stymied with decision paralysis Alliance should continue to turn a profit.Can you explain this? As far as I can see Network have a plan to replace the aging Fokkers with the ex Jetstar A320s. VARA seem to be adding A320s from Tiger as they get replaced by B737 aircraft from VA. Cobham tried the Ejet so will probably replace their BAE146 with those.

They are more comfortable, with bigger seats, more leg room and a proper stand up loo. More and bigger than what? All jets of that size have a stand up loo don't they?

as the A318 & 19 have/are being discarded by many airlines as they upgrade capacity and can be picked up for a song.
Is the A319/320 not too big for some routes for FIFO work? What about GSE? Specifically ULD for hold baggage? Can the bags be manually loaded?

The 100 seat aircraft is what is needed and more importantly, what the clients will pay for. It suits shift change sizes.

[VH DSJ]

Just out of curiosity, would you ever completely fill an A320 on a FIFO run to the mines and back? I know some operators still use turbo-props for this type of work. I would think the A320 would be a bit of an overkill for such ops.

[ebt]

Just out of curiosity, would you ever completely fill an A320 on a FIFO run to the mines and back? I know some operators still use turbo-props for this type of work. I would think the A320 would be a bit of an overkill for such ops.

Really it depends on the mine. FMG's Christmas Creek, Solomon and Cloudbreak mines regularly received A320s/737s, but most others were built to take an F100 or 146 at the most. The bigger aircraft come into their own when there is a cyclone evacuation. Most of the mines have strips that will take Fokkers, with even The Granites now being served by F100s. Quite an upgrade for the blokes who used to fly in an F50 from Perth.

A320 Family in most parts of the world are bulk-loaded rather than ULDs, and the only reason JQ have ULDs is because OSH meant they would have to have an extra person on each turn to act as a spotter for the blokes in the hold.

Cobham E-Jets? Maybe. The one they had they sent back a while ago, and they are adamant that the 146/Avro RJ is irreplaceable due to rough field/STOL capability. But they will need to be replaced eventually.

[Icarus2001]

So would that mean the Jetstar A320s that retire to Network would remain ULD? Thinking about floor finish, rollers, weight etc...

[Section28- BE]

Evening-

Anybody, thinking HP Disks & Blades- and perchance, Honeywell..........?????

Happy New Year to you all
Rgds
S28- BE

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Maybe Alliance are the smartest guys in the room. Why fix what ain't broke? Why upgrade to a more expensive fleet, and then have to compete with all the other contenders? He with the lowest costs wins.
As far as I can see Network have a plan to replace the aging Fokkers with the ex Jetstar A320s.
But is that Network's plan, or their owners? If Network can't compete with Alliance in FIFO now with the same equipment, how will they compete with a more expensive type?
QF bought more F100's for Network (must have thought they were the right aircraft for the job). Now it is Network struggling to absorb the A320s that Qantas needs to move out of Jetstar. Alliance meanwhile sails along.

[stormfury]

Can you explain this? As far as I can see Network have a plan to replace the aging Fokkers with the ex Jetstar A320s. VARA seem to be adding A320s from Tiger as they get replaced by B737 aircraft from VA. Cobham tried the Ejet so will probably replace their BAE146 with those.
Apart from Cobham (who I mistakenly didn’t factor in) VARA are completley reliant on their ‘new’ jets being passed onto them once TT are done with them - how’s that fleet rationalisation by 2019 going?? As for Network, are they really getting more than the 2x 320s? My understanding (happy to be corrected) was that the 320s freed up the 73s being used in the West for other mainline routes.

My comment was was based on the premise that it takes more than words and a ‘decision’ to enact a tangible change (anyone recall "By 1990, no Australian child will be living in poverty"). If circumstances and timelines change then new decisions need to be made and enacted, this is the job of management. This was the basis for my comment.

[galdian]

IF Alliance have bought up sufficient spares (and additional airframes to cannibalise bit by bit) to last them the next 10-15-20 years...whatever...AND they can maintain reliability to a degree no less than their competitors AND the F100 doesn't become unpopular with the punters then indeed Alliance should be on a solid footing for a long time to come.
One does hear stories of F100 engines being run around de-rated all the time to extend life due lack of spares etc - is Alliance immune to such considerations?

Of course if the owners decide Network etc don't have to make a profit (or even break even) and offer A320's for the price of F100's...

[WannaBeBiggles]

Just throwing in my 2 cents re: the F100 vs. eJet in regards to cost.

I can think of one route that is operated by both eJet's and F100's under two different mining contracts (Groote), with McArthur River Mine recently awarding a 5 year contract for eJet's to operate their FIFO contract. eJet's also operated The Granites run on behalf of Alliance until they re-opened their Darwin base.

So other than acquisition cost, one could hazard a guess that the operating costs are not significantly more between the two types.

As stated, the prices for first generation eJets is coming down, so that *should* make it a viable replacement.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

I can think of one route that is operated by both eJet's and F100's under two different mining contracts (Groote)
It's not a route, it's a destination. Airnorth fly to/from Darwin, Alliance flies to/from Cairns. Airnorth has work for the aircraft once back in DRW, Alliance has work for the aircraft once back in CNS. Different economics.
eJet's also operated The Granites run on behalf of Alliance until they re-opened their Darwin base.
I don't know if that indicates the operating costs are similar. What it means to me is that Alliance needed someone/anyone to operate their route until they could put their own aircraft on it. It seems it was cheaper to set up a base with all it's associated costs and use Fokkers for one FIFO contract, than pay someone else who was already there to do it for you using something else.

[Alice Kiwican]

It's not a route, it's a destination. Airnorth fly to/from Darwin, Alliance flies to/from Cairns. Airnorth has work for the aircraft once back in DRW, Alliance has work for the aircraft once back in CNS. Different economics.

I don't know if that indicates the operating costs are similar. What it means to me is that Alliance needed someone/anyone to operate their route until they could put their own aircraft on it. It seems it was cheaper to set up a base with all it's associated costs and use Fokkers for one FIFO contract, than pay someone else who was already there to do it for you using something else.

Lucky they picked up the DN-AS-AD run for VIrgin then to help with the costs of setting up the Darwin base

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Lucky for them VA charter them and not Airnorth then. Must be something to do with costs.

[Arthur D]

Evening-

Anybody, thinking HP Disks & Blades- and perchance, Honeywell..........?????

Happy New Year to you all
Rgds
S28- BE

Apparently not s28.

[geeup]

More work for Alliance:D

Well done lads

Alliance Airlines to fly Brisbane-Port Moresby on behalf of Virgin Australia (http://australianaviation.com.au/2019/01/alliance-airlines-to-fly-brisbane-port-moresby-on-behalf-of-virgin-australia/)

[tail wheel]

Figures from the Bureau of Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Economics (BITRE) showed Virgin Australia had an average load factor of 35.2 per cent on its flights from Port Moresby to Brisbane for the 12 months to June 30 2018, with the figure 36.3 per cent for the Brisbane-Port Moresby leg.

Qantas’s load factor on the route over the same period was 65 per cent inbound and 57.1 per cent outbound.

Meanwhile, Air Niugini’s services to Australia recorded load factors of 52.8 per cent, while its flights out of Australia were 52.6 per cent full.

Too much capacity? Over serviced? Too many players? The F100 will reduce Virgin capacity 43% (from 5 x 176, to 5 x 100 each way) although they may lose the premium end of the market. At least their load factor should rise from 36% on the B737-800 to around 63% on the F100.

[Chadzat]

If only VA had E-jets......

[Tommy Bahama]

Virgin should just give up and outsource everything from the Board down.

[Berealgetreal]

Should have had BNE based Ejets.:ok:

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

So again VA have picked someone operating Fokkers over someone (anyone) operating Ejets.

[airdualbleedfault]

VH-DSJ, to answer your question yes the 320s are regularly taking 140 plus pax out of those mines, which is 2 x F100 loads, so probably a lot cheaper to run 1 A320 than 2 F100. Also the 320 doesn't have to stop anywhere for fuel due to RTOW restrictions (as a rule) like the Dutch oven sometimes does

[hazohag]

When I was at Alliance, we mostly flew with less than 20 pax between ISA and TEF (Back when the duty was BNE-ISA-TEF-ISA-BNE). Not sure those mining companies really care? That was over 10 years ago mind you. They did fill them up with RPT pax in and out of ISA though.

[WannaBeBiggles]

It's not a route, it's a destination. Airnorth fly to/from Darwin, Alliance flies to/from Cairns. Airnorth has work for the aircraft once back in DRW, Alliance has work for the aircraft once back in CNS. Different economics.


AN also do a weekly run from Cairns to Groote.

I can't say how an old Fokker is cheaper to run, I could be wrong though (anyone know the block burns?). If the operating economics aren't the same or similar to a more modern jet eventually the margin garnered from acquisition cost savings will erode away and it would become more expensive to operate. This is of course based on pure assumption.

This is by no means a comment on Alliance, more a general comment on operating older jet fleets vs. more modern jets.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

I think the AN CNS-GTE is part of their RPT network, not their FIFO stuff. As an aside,back when I was in the Territory, Ansett flew DRW-GTE-CNS and return daily with F28's then BAe146's (2 times a week was GOV I think)
I guess owning upwards of 37 Fokkers, Alliance's advantage is that if there is a job/contract offered tomorrow, they can take it. No startups or ramp ups required.

[Stationair8]

ASX are reporting that Alliance have purchased five additional Fokker 100’s, spare engines etc and from Helvetic Airways.

[smiling monkey]

Helvetic Airways probably thought Christmas has come early, being able to sell off their dinosaurs. Whilst other airlines around the world are upgrading to the next generation regional airliners, (Ejet -E2 in Helvetic Airway's case), we in Australia continue to buy their scraps.

[TBM-Legend]

Here its just a race to the cheapest for most clients. A low costs Fokker with low utilisation vs. high cost Ejet for example with low utilisation. Do the maths!

[galdian]

Correct me if wrong but Alliance are turning a profit??
If so no mean feat in aviation at any time.

They are part owned by QF, if as some suggest QF take majority shareholding fair to suspect like others they will become second hand A320 operators in the years to come.

For now they are competing in a price driven market - and succeeding.
Yes at some stage they will have to change equipment - but not for quite a few years to come.
The future's not that important right now, much can happen.

[Square Bear]

Probably find that there are Countries that regulate Fleet Age by legislation. Australia not being one to do so.

Nothing wrong with the F70/100 and the B717, simply a nice aircraft to passenger in...prefer it over any 73 or 320.

Bit like wine perhaps..:)

[RENURPP]

Probably find that there are Countries that regulate Fleet Age by legislation. Australia not being one to do so.

Nothing wrong with the F70/100 and the B717, simply a nice aircraft to passenger in...prefer it over any 73 or 320.

Bit like wine perhaps..:)


You like your wine "Fresh" do you?

First flights - for the F100/70 (1986). B737NG (1997), B747-400 (1988), B777 (1994), A320/321 (1987/1993), were all in production BEFORE the 717 (1998)???

[Duck Pilot]

What’s the availability like for 717s, are they easily obtainable and cost effective?

[regional_flyer]

What’s the availability like for 717s, are they easily obtainable

They are hugely popular at the airlines that already operate them, as soon as one becomes available they are snapped up almost immediately.

[smiling monkey]

They are part owned by QF, if as some suggest QF take majority shareholding fair to suspect like others they will become second hand A320 operators in the years to come.



If QF does take a majority stake of Alliance, then who will VA turn to for their far north QLD operations?

[smiling monkey]

"Qantas stake in Alliance Airlines raises concerns" says the ACCC.

https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/qantas-stake-in-alliance-airlines-raises-concerns

Does this mean the ACCC won't approve the sale of Alliance to Qantas?

Will Qantas now look for another FIFO charter operator to acquire? I heard Cobham is up for sale.
https://www.afr.com/street-talk/cobham-bankers-up-for-australian-aviation-unit-sale-20190801-p52csw?fbclid=IwAR3J8x8VXpLwhld_I87wALg448F3e5AvWPxQIsqUZZCu vWJscoVbaXK3B9k

[PoppaJo]

Alan is not in the business to help competitors. Virgin would be left high and dry at some point in the future should this get the go ahead. Regardless of how lucrative the Virgin contract is, it would be gone in a flash.

Some will remember the dialogue Alan had back in 2007 when Tiger landed. Tiger wanted ground support at regional airports and was willing to pay whatever cost, after all they service numerous other carriers also. Alan refused to offer any services to Tiger, its not part of his job description to help Tiger Airways he said. They wouldn’t even hire out a wheelchair to them, a full ban was put on any single object being lent or hired out to them. I remember passengers being lifted down stairs by crew as they didn’t want to give us the perfectly working lifting machine in front of us.

I usually fall over when he claims he welcomes competition

[Rated De]

Alan is not in the business to help competitors. Virgin would be left high and dry at some point in the future should this get the go ahead. Regardless of how lucrative the Virgin contract is, it would be gone in a flash.

Some will remember the dialogue Alan had back in 2007 when Tiger landed. Tiger wanted ground support at regional airports and was willing to pay whatever cost, after all they service numerous other carriers also. Alan refused to offer any services to Tiger, its not part of his job description to help Tiger Airways he said. They wouldn’t even hire out a wheelchair to them, a full ban was put on any single object being lent or hired out to them. I remember passengers being lifted down stairs by crew as they didn’t want to give us the perfectly working lifting machine in front of us.

I usually fall over when he claims he welcomes competition

Ask the late Mr Bryan Gray how much help the incumbents offered Compass Airlines.
As Compass looked for 767 aircraft, they hoped an existing operator could maintain them.

Despite deregulation, and increased competition being the economic narrative of the day, the "owner" forbid external maintenance being provided to Compass Airlines operating the 767.
The owner was the same government that de-regulated the industry and stood straight faced on camera, welcoming competition.

[Rated De]

I think some don't quite understand what "welcoming competition" doesn't mean; it doesn't mean helping out someone who is gunna try to cut your lunch for you! The big 2 are likely to help each other because they are likely to both gain from it. What was Tiger able to do for QF?

Behaving like an oligopoly was not the intent of deregulation.
In fact, the revocation of the two airline policy was expressly designed to stop the incumbents "helping each other out"
Other than colluding on pricing and giving lifts to the opposition, the industry decades after deregulation is precisely the same as before; Two airlines

[Rated De]

"Qantas stake in Alliance Airlines raises concerns" says the ACCC.

https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/qantas-stake-in-alliance-airlines-raises-concerns

Does this mean the ACCC won't approve the sale of Alliance to Qantas?

Will Qantas now look for another FIFO charter operator to acquire? I heard Cobham is up for sale.
https://www.afr.com/street-talk/cobham-bankers-up-for-australian-aviation-unit-sale-20190801-p52csw?fbclid=IwAR3J8x8VXpLwhld_I87wALg448F3e5AvWPxQIsqUZZCu vWJscoVbaXK3B9k

Has Rod Sims been kicked out of the Chairman's lounge?


It didn't seem to concern the ever dull ACCC that the proposed conduct Qantas wanted in the tie up with Emirates, required an exemption to the Competition and Consumer Act 2010.
To gain this exemption, Qantas claimed to be in "terminal decline" something the ACCC dismissed, yet ironically gave them and then extended their "alliance".

Soft corruption is much cheaper than buying companies the old fashioned way.

[Beer Baron]

Some will remember the dialogue Alan had back in 2007 when Tiger landed. Tiger wanted ground support at regional airports and was willing to pay whatever cost, after all they service numerous other carriers also. Alan refused to offer any services to Tiger, its not part of his job description to help Tiger Airways he said. They wouldn’t even hire out a wheelchair to them, a full ban was put on any single object being lent or hired out to them. I remember passengers being lifted down stairs by crew as they didn’t want to give us the perfectly working lifting machine in front of us.
That should be of no surprise should it? Qantas is not owned by the government and is not there to spur on competition. (I know this was not your claim PoppaJo).

When a new airline starts up trying to pinch your customers with rock bottom prices because they don’t employ airport staff, or buy hi-lifts or keep wheelchairs, then you would be mad to support that effort by providing those services for them. You’d simply be ensuring their business model was a success. The money you’d get from renting a wheelchair would never cover the revenue lost from the customers who jump ship.

[ebt]

Alan is not in the business to help competitors. Virgin would be left high and dry at some point in the future should this get the go ahead. Regardless of how lucrative the Virgin contract is, it would be gone in a flash.

Some will remember the dialogue Alan had back in 2007 when Tiger landed. Tiger wanted ground support at regional airports and was willing to pay whatever cost, after all they service numerous other carriers also. Alan refused to offer any services to Tiger, its not part of his job description to help Tiger Airways he said. They wouldn’t even hire out a wheelchair to them, a full ban was put on any single object being lent or hired out to them. I remember passengers being lifted down stairs by crew as they didn’t want to give us the perfectly working lifting machine in front of us.

I usually fall over when he claims he welcomes competition


Just to be clear, it wasn't AJ who said that, it was JB when he was Qantas Group Exec. AJ was still running a little carrier in Melbourne with an orange star on the tail at that stage.

[Icarus2001]

The money you’d get from renting a wheelchair would never cover the revenue lost from the customers who jump ship. That would depend upon how much one charged for the hire. :E

Wait until Australia catches up with EU rules around air transport (which the airlines will fight) for such things a provision of DPL and compensation for DELAYED flights let alone cancelled flights.

[krismiler]

Alan is not in the business to help competitors.
Alan refused to offer any services to Tiger, its not part of his job description to help Tiger Airways he said.

What if Singapore Airlines had refused to let QF use any of their equipment in repairing the A380 which was grounded in Singapore for months after the engine failure ?

[The Sleeping Pax]

More work for Alliance:D

Well done lads

Alliance Airlines to fly Brisbane-Port Moresby on behalf of Virgin Australia (http://australianaviation.com.au/2019/01/alliance-airlines-to-fly-brisbane-port-moresby-on-behalf-of-virgin-australia/)
Actually flew Port Moresby to Brisbane and back courtesy of Alliance on behalf of Virgin Australia and they were quite decent for a budget flight. I'd fly them again. Leaving the aircraft one of the flight crew was at the door and i was able to thank them for the flight.
I connected from Brisbane to Auckland and back on the same trip courtesy of Virgin Australia - cheap and nasty. Never again if I could help it.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Not sure if BNE-POM-BNE is supposed to be a "budget'" flight. VA contracted QQ to put one of their F100s on the run in place of one of VA's 737s. Kept the same VA flight numbers, not sure if the ticket prices stayed the same. If the experience was better than the VA BNE-AKL-BNE legs on a VA 737, it probably says more about VA.

[Zhoottoo]

Alliance Airlines soars to record resulthttps://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/5e37daf366e7315a73073b5ed1568f55?width=650 (https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/5e37daf366e7315a73073b5ed1568f55)Alliance Airlines’ Scott McMillan and Lee Schofield. Picture: Lyndon Mechielsen

9:52AM AUGUST 8, 2019

The resurgence of the resources sector has helped lift Alliance *Airlines to the best annual result of the company’s 17-year history this week, with a $32.8 million profit before tax.

The figure was up 25.7 per cent or $6.7m on the previous year, while net profit improved $4.6m to $22.7m.

Fly-in, fly-out contracts with mining companies made up the lion’s share of Alliance’s flying revenue, worth $165.3m for financial 2019, up 8 per cent.

Wet leasing — where Alliance provide an aircraft and a crew for another airline — contributed $45.4m to the result, up 22 per cent, while *regular public *transport services generated $41.2m. Chief executive Lee Schofield said the result was underpinned by the continued focus of all Alliance employees in ensuring “the safe, on-time and cost-*effective provision of services to all of our clients”.

The Brisbane-based carrier retained a positive outlook for the financial 2020, with scheduled services expected to increase for a number of resource sector clients as a result of increasing mine production levels.

Qantas became Alliance’s single largest shareholder this year, in a move now being examined by the ACCC.

Robyn Ironside

[longlegs]

Alliance losing patience with ACCC over probe into Qantas stake dealhttps://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/8a68c9b1aca5e5a8d8b4a1f363768e64?width=650 (https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/8a68c9b1aca5e5a8d8b4a1f363768e64)Scott McMillan with Alliance Airlines CEO Lee Schofield Picture: Lyndon Mechielsen

JANUARY 21, 2020

Charter operator Alliance Airlines is losing patience with the competition watchdog, as an investigation into a 19.9 per cent share acquisition by Qantas nears the one-year mark. Alliance Airlines managing director Scott McMillan said he was constantly being asked about the progress of the investigation, which began in February last year, shortly after Qantas made the surprise move.

As well as buying a 19.9 per cent stake in Alliance, Qantas CEO Alan Joyce told staff his long-term plan was to take over the profitable, Brisbane-based carrier.

The shares acquisition triggered the interest of the Australian Competition & Consumer Commission, which released a “statement of issues” in August, expressing its concerns with the Qantas move. These related to the potential lessening of competition in fly-in, fly-out markets and regular public transport routes serviced by Alliance Airlines aircraft.Submissions were sought by August 21, but no timeline was set for the investigation.“We generally do not publish provisional decision dates when investigation completed acquisitions (which is where the companies involved did not seek clearance from the ACCC ahead of completing the transaction),” an ACCC spokeswoman said.

Mr McMillan said the process had left the company’s leaders feeling frustrated following what he described as an “unwelcome advance” from Qantas. “It’s gone on for long enough, we just want an answer,” Mr McMillan said.

Should a finding be made that the acquisition did or was likely to lessen competition in breach of the Competition and Consumer Act, the ACCC could institute proceedings in the Federal Court.

As well as declaring the transaction void, the Act includes a pecuniary penalty of up to $10m.

Qantas declined to comment on the length of the investigation. The airline previously said it had no plans to decrease its share holding in Alliance and it would not seek to increase its stake until the ACCC inquiry was completed.

To date Qantas’s $60m investment in Alliance has appreciated 11.6 per cent, or close to $7m, with the smaller airline’s share price improving from $2.40 at the time of purchase to $2.68.

Robyn Ironside

[Zhoottoo]

The Australian must have only one photo????

[Icarus2001]

Twelve months to make a decision.

Once again Australia shows that we are a developing country but at least you can drink the water.

[Ragnor]

Joyce has a replacement for JQ already!

[Blitzkrieger]

Joyce has a replacement for JQ already!

Maybe he should just “buy” the soon to be sold 717 operation and invest in that instead. Or is his plan to mop up all possible competition, in which case the ACCC has a valid concern.