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B772
1st Jan 2019, 06:42
Alliance appear to be doing well with their all Fokker fleet. Shareholders have been well rewarded over the past 5 years. It looks like they even have a F70 fitted out like a VIP aircraft for charters.

PoppaJo
1st Jan 2019, 07:00
Alliance appear to be doing well with their all Fokker fleet. Shareholders have been well rewarded over the past 5 years. It looks like they even have a F70 fitted out like a VIP aircraft for charters.
They have most certainly benefited from poor decision making at fellow carriers resulting in work being thrown at them here there and everywhere. Cough....Virgin.....Cough....

Incompetence at certain carriers shows no signs of slowing down so things no doubt things will continue booming...

Rated De
1st Jan 2019, 07:09
Sir Dennis Buchanan had a keen eye for the market and opportunity. An all Fokker fleet in Queensland prospering today is in part due his understanding of the region and the market.
Although Flight West ceased operations the company exists under another tail and appears capably led and serves well its intended market.

Berealgetreal
2nd Jan 2019, 22:02
A mate of mine works at Alliance. He describes Virgin as the equivalent of winning lotto for Alliance. Nobody could have imagined it in their wildest dreams.

krismiler
2nd Jan 2019, 23:27
They were advertising for Pilots recently, might be attractive for a cashed up late 50s expat who’s sick of the ME/Asia and wants to come home.

geeup
3rd Jan 2019, 01:46
What happens if Virgin sorts their shit out?

Unlikely to happen but possible.

NWS Inop
3rd Jan 2019, 01:55
From what mates in the operation are saying, they also have their own FIFO and tourist charter work and are looking to expand their market reach in the coming year, so not totally dependent on Virgin et al...

Once my exisiting bond is up, I'll be applying...

Berealgetreal
3rd Jan 2019, 02:56
If you want progression you won't beat Alliance or VARA F100.

LostProperty
3rd Jan 2019, 22:27
It looks like they even have a F70 fitted out like a VIP aircraft for charters.
I think that Fokker belonged to the Dutch Royal Family and was bought last year fully VIP equipped.

Tommy Bahama
4th Jan 2019, 00:48
What happens if Virgin sorts their shit out?

Unlikely to happen but possible.

The funniest thing I've read on PPRune in long long time.......

Going Nowhere
4th Jan 2019, 01:16
I think that Fokker belonged to the Dutch Royal Family and was bought last year fully VIP equipped.

Correct,

There's also a F100 in VIP config but I think it's stored at YMEN.

VH DSJ
4th Jan 2019, 09:22
Alliance
F100 Captain - $122,675
F100 F/O - $82,819

Are these figures their current pay rates? A little on the low side if you ask me.

lucille
4th Jan 2019, 09:58
Are these figures their current pay rates? A little on the low side if you ask me.

Maybe rostering is good, quality of life good, a happy crew to work with, no back of the clock flights, good management team.... money isn’t everything. Self worth, self fulfilment and sleeping in your own bed count for a lot. Ask any CX, EK pilot.

industry insider
4th Jan 2019, 10:02
The Fokkers are getting old though and more expensive to maintain. Luckily Alliance did buy some to part out but that can't last forever. Some of the Alliance market, apart from their own FIFO, is flying for VARA when the VARA F100s are tech which seems to be quite often. At some stage Alliance will have to start replacing aircraft as the miners want newer types, replacing a whole fleet of Fokkers is going to be expensive.

galdian
4th Jan 2019, 19:29
Just wondering what you'd replace them with?
What's in ready international supply, older so depreciated and cheap(er) to buy but with proven reliability and fits the bottom line?
Or is there another "niche" type in limited supplies but being run out by major airlines at a discount like the B717/F100 are/were??

737-5? A319? JungleJet variants?

Interesting exercise.

exfocx
4th Jan 2019, 22:29
I can understand the argument supporting 20 to 30 yr old aircraft for FIFO due to the lack of utilisation, but not for thin RPT runs. The US airlines don't use clapped out jets.

patty50
4th Jan 2019, 23:35
I can understand the argument supporting 20 to 30 yr old aircraft for FIFO due to the lack of utilisation, but not for thin RPT runs. The US airlines don't use clapped out jets.

What are you on about? The big 3 have some ancient planes.

Allegiant is apparently the most consistently profitable airline in the US, nearly all of their planes second hand and only got rid of the last of their 30+ year old MD-80s late last year.

exfocx
5th Jan 2019, 06:37
patty50, I was talking the 2nd tier, like Skywest etc. Have a relative now with Delta who was SWA 'til 18 mths ago. They're not flying 30 yrs old F100s, neither is United Express and same with American, all ERJs or CRJs with the possibility of C220s coming, I think.

machtuk
5th Jan 2019, 07:00
Are these figures their current pay rates? A little on the low side if you ask me.

I thought the same, cant find the post now? Something fishy about that!
I wouldn't get out of bed for those $$$$ as a Capt! I know Uni lecturers making better money & they don't have to worry about killing hundreds on any one day whilst on the job!

Arthur D
5th Jan 2019, 07:51
I thought the same, cant find the post now? Something fishy about that!
I wouldn't get out of bed for those $$$$ as a Capt! I know Uni lecturers making better money & they don't have to worry about killing hundreds on any one day whilst on the job!

Get your hand off it Darrel.

Poor choice of words perhaps.....

Hopefully killing people is not on any pilots mind.

onehitwonder
5th Jan 2019, 09:05
Can certainly say that every Alliance driver i know, loves the company and the lifestyle.
Good management, work, aircraft and crew

Kulwin Park
5th Jan 2019, 10:55
Just wondering what you'd replace them with?
What's in ready international supply, older so depreciated and cheap(er) to buy but with proven reliability and fits the bottom line?
Or is there another "niche" type in limited supplies but being run out by major airlines at a discount like the B717/F100 are/were??

737-5? A319? JungleJet variants?

Interesting exercise.

Airbus A220's would be an ideal replacement on some routes. By just buying a few to slow down the flyig hours on the 70's & 100's would give the Fokkers an extra life.

airdualbleedfault
5th Jan 2019, 11:44
One new A220 would probably cost as much as half the Alliance fleet :}

stormfury
5th Jan 2019, 16:39
Airbus A220's would be an ideal replacement on some routes. By just buying a few to slow down the flyig hours on the 70's & 100's would give the Fokkers an extra life.
I also initially thought the A220 would fit the bill but the cost is probably prohibitive. If it was my train-set I’d be looking closely at the MRJ. Given all the delays and obstacles Alliance might be able to get a good deal taking on some of the cancelled orders.

One new A220 would probably cost as much as half the Alliance fleet :}
Either way it will be costly, and the longer they delay even making a decision the more it will cost them in the long run - IMHO.

Icarus2001
6th Jan 2019, 00:52
If it was my train-set I’d be looking closely at the MRJ I am not sure I would want to be the first in Australia to introduce a new type with the regulatory pain that would cause. The Embraer jets are known and proven, already operated in Australia with some experienced crews and engineers. The A220 would be interesting, the manufacturer would be very keen I am sure, lots of assistance.

Alliance have done well as a niche carrier and they seem to be able to capitalise on opportunities very well. They are, however, like a trucking company with a fleet of very old trucks that will be off the road shortly. The lease costs of new generation jets will be a shock.

ghyde
6th Jan 2019, 05:11
Alliance bought the entire Austrian F70/100 fleet some years ago.

They still have around 7 aircraft stored in Europe waiting to head south.

They expect to stay with F70/100 until the end of the decade

Berealgetreal
6th Jan 2019, 05:36
Google says a220 90 mil per unit. Alliance bought 22 F100s a few years back for 18 mil from memory.
Rumour has it VARA paid 16 for one.

I reckon the Fokker will go another 20 years. The only things that would change this would be something like a spar life limit, rising fuel costs or spare parts company closing down.

I think they’ll have the capital by then to handle the lease costs.

4EvahLearning
6th Jan 2019, 07:31
They expect to stay with F70/100 until the end of the decade
Well, that isn't too far away - about 12 months by my estimate.

Traffic_Is_Er_Was
6th Jan 2019, 07:43
spare parts company closing down.
I believe Alliance already own most of the spare parts. I've heard other operators come to them if they need something.

VH DSJ
6th Jan 2019, 07:59
I am not sure I would want to be the first in Australia to introduce a new type with the regulatory pain that would cause. The Embraer jets are known and proven, already operated in Australia with some experienced crews and engineers. The A220 would be interesting, the manufacturer would be very keen I am sure, lots of assistance.

I agree with you there. Furthermore, there should be more Ejets on the second hand market now as companies replace their Ejets with the new generation E2. They should be much cheaper to either buy or lease now than ever before.

wheels_down
6th Jan 2019, 08:28
In 10-20 years there is going to be an oversupply of 319/320s on the market from those carriers that rode the 2000-2010 expansion wave.

319s will be going for peanuts. Some are already being scrapped.

Chocks Away
6th Jan 2019, 09:08
I'm with you Wheels Down, as the A318 & 19 have/are being discarded by many airlines as they upgrade capacity and can be picked up for a song. The A318 not so much, as not as many were produced while most were scrapped for parts as they got more worth than an operating unit... but it would be ideal IF sourced. Same PCNs as the already approved A320 airstrips.
Other options are interesting too - the MRJ; SSJ and of course the EMB series but I'm abit suss' about those as an operator tried with those and is no more (Maybe it was the management of said Company :} )
What does concern me though, is the sad fact that Australian Aviation has come to this disgraceful point mentioned above, stymying any progress or efficiencies : I am not sure I would want to be the first in Australia to introduce a new type with the regulatory pain that would cause.

stormfury
6th Jan 2019, 15:00
I am not sure I would want to be the first in Australia to introduce a new type with the regulatory pain that would cause. The Embraer jets are known and proven, already operated in Australia with some experienced crews and engineers. The A220 would be interesting, the manufacturer would be very keen I am sure, lots of assistance.

For sure, it would not be as smooth a process as if they were to purchase types already in use but I would think the Mitsubishi conglomerate would go above and beyond to assist in the certification process. Add to this increasing Australia-Japan good-will and cooperation at the higher echelons of government could very well see some ‘persuasion’ to ensure a smooth certification. That said, this is all speculation on a rumour forum.

I would still guess that the A220 would be a little above their budget (IIRC you could nearly get two 73s - some sort of ‘deal’ - for the sticker price of the A220). Although as some have mentioned, the A319 might be a better option that fits with their current business model.

As long as the other carriers are stymied with decision paralysis Alliance should continue to turn a profit.

industry insider
6th Jan 2019, 15:10
I reckon the Fokker will go another 20 years. The only things that would change this would be something like a spar life limit, rising fuel costs or spare parts company closing down.

i don’t think the mining companies will let the Fokker go beyond 30, some even 25, meaning that they will soon looking to modernise.

ghyde
6th Jan 2019, 22:48
Well, that isn't too far away - about 12 months by my estimate.

Typo typo typo , Re-phase next 10 years.

Parts are not an issue as they are regularly scrapping aircraft to recover parts.
Also they purchased Austrians spare engines and spare parts supply.

neville_nobody
6th Jan 2019, 23:56
i don’t think the mining companies will let the Fokker go beyond 30, some even 25, meaning that they will soon looking to modernise.


Mining companies fly in the cheapest option available every time. You could offer them a brand new A220 but if it is 1 cent more expensive to charter than 30 year old F100 they will fly in the F100. That is why Alliance have gone and bought so many aircraft. Noone is going to be able to compete with them in that market space as parts become more scarce. Competitors will be forced to look at other aircraft but won't be able to compete on price, partly in due to the low capital cost of the F100.

krismiler
7th Jan 2019, 00:32
Airbus are nice when they are new but are designed with a limited lifespan in mind and being relatively complicated, will get prohibitively expensive to maintain as they get older.

Modern aircraft are like modern cars, disposable. A Toyota from the mid 2000s was well built and relatively simple, it could be easily fixed and kept on the road. A car built today is full of electronics and not designed to last more than about ten years when it is expected to be scrapped.

A DC3 can be kept flying forever, and there are still plenty of 30 year old Boeing aircraft in the air. However these are much simpler designs which could easily be repaired and it was often high fuel prices which led to them being grounded.

The business model of operating older aircraft and accepting higher maintenance and fuel costs but saving on capital costs because the airframe was a fraction of the price of a new one, might not be viable in 20-30 years time.

Few things are built to last last these days, most things are now made to a price with little expectation of repair and once it goes wrong you are meant to buy another.

ebt
7th Jan 2019, 00:38
Mining companies fly in the cheapest option available every time. You could offer them a brand new A220 but if it is 1 cent more expensive to charter than 30 year old F100 they will fly in the F100. That is why Alliance have gone and bought so many aircraft. Noone is going to be able to compete with them in that market space as parts become more scarce. Competitors will be forced to look at other aircraft but won't be able to compete on price, partly in due to the low capital cost of the F100.

Spot on - and to their credit Alliance have been able to argue that the F100s are still "modern". Given the competitors are also flying them or BAe 146s, there's no driving push to change the fleet any time soon, the driving issue will be the engine support. So far, Rolls-Royce have said that they will support them for the foreseeable future, but that will change at some point.

People I've spoken to at the airline have said the A318 could be appealing, while E-Jet values are going down as more carriers replace them - albeit not yet to the same value as the Fokkers.

Depending on how long the wet-lease stuff for Virgin and occasionally Qantas lasts for, there would be good reason to take in a second fleet type like the E-Jets, but the miners won't pay a cent more for a new type. A220, MRJ, SSJ will never make it into Alliance's fleet.

pithblot
7th Jan 2019, 04:02
Speaking from a passenger's POV, I recon the Alliance Fokkers are ahead of the competition. They are more comfortable, with bigger seats, more leg room and a proper stand up loo.

Icarus2001
7th Jan 2019, 05:59
As long as the other carriers are stymied with decision paralysis Alliance should continue to turn a profit.Can you explain this? As far as I can see Network have a plan to replace the aging Fokkers with the ex Jetstar A320s. VARA seem to be adding A320s from Tiger as they get replaced by B737 aircraft from VA. Cobham tried the Ejet so will probably replace their BAE146 with those.

They are more comfortable, with bigger seats, more leg room and a proper stand up loo. More and bigger than what? All jets of that size have a stand up loo don't they?

as the A318 & 19 have/are being discarded by many airlines as they upgrade capacity and can be picked up for a song.
Is the A319/320 not too big for some routes for FIFO work? What about GSE? Specifically ULD for hold baggage? Can the bags be manually loaded?

The 100 seat aircraft is what is needed and more importantly, what the clients will pay for. It suits shift change sizes.

VH DSJ
7th Jan 2019, 07:00
Just out of curiosity, would you ever completely fill an A320 on a FIFO run to the mines and back? I know some operators still use turbo-props for this type of work. I would think the A320 would be a bit of an overkill for such ops.

ebt
7th Jan 2019, 07:59
Just out of curiosity, would you ever completely fill an A320 on a FIFO run to the mines and back? I know some operators still use turbo-props for this type of work. I would think the A320 would be a bit of an overkill for such ops.

Really it depends on the mine. FMG's Christmas Creek, Solomon and Cloudbreak mines regularly received A320s/737s, but most others were built to take an F100 or 146 at the most. The bigger aircraft come into their own when there is a cyclone evacuation. Most of the mines have strips that will take Fokkers, with even The Granites now being served by F100s. Quite an upgrade for the blokes who used to fly in an F50 from Perth.

A320 Family in most parts of the world are bulk-loaded rather than ULDs, and the only reason JQ have ULDs is because OSH meant they would have to have an extra person on each turn to act as a spotter for the blokes in the hold.

Cobham E-Jets? Maybe. The one they had they sent back a while ago, and they are adamant that the 146/Avro RJ is irreplaceable due to rough field/STOL capability. But they will need to be replaced eventually.

Icarus2001
7th Jan 2019, 08:57
So would that mean the Jetstar A320s that retire to Network would remain ULD? Thinking about floor finish, rollers, weight etc...

Section28- BE
7th Jan 2019, 11:33
Evening-

Anybody, thinking HP Disks & Blades- and perchance, Honeywell..........?????

Happy New Year to you all
Rgds
S28- BE

Traffic_Is_Er_Was
7th Jan 2019, 11:40
Maybe Alliance are the smartest guys in the room. Why fix what ain't broke? Why upgrade to a more expensive fleet, and then have to compete with all the other contenders? He with the lowest costs wins.
As far as I can see Network have a plan to replace the aging Fokkers with the ex Jetstar A320s.
But is that Network's plan, or their owners? If Network can't compete with Alliance in FIFO now with the same equipment, how will they compete with a more expensive type?
QF bought more F100's for Network (must have thought they were the right aircraft for the job). Now it is Network struggling to absorb the A320s that Qantas needs to move out of Jetstar. Alliance meanwhile sails along.

stormfury
7th Jan 2019, 16:14
Can you explain this? As far as I can see Network have a plan to replace the aging Fokkers with the ex Jetstar A320s. VARA seem to be adding A320s from Tiger as they get replaced by B737 aircraft from VA. Cobham tried the Ejet so will probably replace their BAE146 with those.
Apart from Cobham (who I mistakenly didn’t factor in) VARA are completley reliant on their ‘new’ jets being passed onto them once TT are done with them - how’s that fleet rationalisation by 2019 going?? As for Network, are they really getting more than the 2x 320s? My understanding (happy to be corrected) was that the 320s freed up the 73s being used in the West for other mainline routes.

My comment was was based on the premise that it takes more than words and a ‘decision’ to enact a tangible change (anyone recall "By 1990, no Australian child will be living in poverty"). If circumstances and timelines change then new decisions need to be made and enacted, this is the job of management. This was the basis for my comment.

galdian
7th Jan 2019, 21:35
IF Alliance have bought up sufficient spares (and additional airframes to cannibalise bit by bit) to last them the next 10-15-20 years...whatever...AND they can maintain reliability to a degree no less than their competitors AND the F100 doesn't become unpopular with the punters then indeed Alliance should be on a solid footing for a long time to come.
One does hear stories of F100 engines being run around de-rated all the time to extend life due lack of spares etc - is Alliance immune to such considerations?

Of course if the owners decide Network etc don't have to make a profit (or even break even) and offer A320's for the price of F100's...

WannaBeBiggles
8th Jan 2019, 20:55
Just throwing in my 2 cents re: the F100 vs. eJet in regards to cost.

I can think of one route that is operated by both eJet's and F100's under two different mining contracts (Groote), with McArthur River Mine recently awarding a 5 year contract for eJet's to operate their FIFO contract. eJet's also operated The Granites run on behalf of Alliance until they re-opened their Darwin base.

So other than acquisition cost, one could hazard a guess that the operating costs are not significantly more between the two types.

As stated, the prices for first generation eJets is coming down, so that *should* make it a viable replacement.

Traffic_Is_Er_Was
9th Jan 2019, 03:46
I can think of one route that is operated by both eJet's and F100's under two different mining contracts (Groote)
It's not a route, it's a destination. Airnorth fly to/from Darwin, Alliance flies to/from Cairns. Airnorth has work for the aircraft once back in DRW, Alliance has work for the aircraft once back in CNS. Different economics.
eJet's also operated The Granites run on behalf of Alliance until they re-opened their Darwin base.
I don't know if that indicates the operating costs are similar. What it means to me is that Alliance needed someone/anyone to operate their route until they could put their own aircraft on it. It seems it was cheaper to set up a base with all it's associated costs and use Fokkers for one FIFO contract, than pay someone else who was already there to do it for you using something else.

Alice Kiwican
9th Jan 2019, 06:50
It's not a route, it's a destination. Airnorth fly to/from Darwin, Alliance flies to/from Cairns. Airnorth has work for the aircraft once back in DRW, Alliance has work for the aircraft once back in CNS. Different economics.

I don't know if that indicates the operating costs are similar. What it means to me is that Alliance needed someone/anyone to operate their route until they could put their own aircraft on it. It seems it was cheaper to set up a base with all it's associated costs and use Fokkers for one FIFO contract, than pay someone else who was already there to do it for you using something else.

Lucky they picked up the DN-AS-AD run for VIrgin then to help with the costs of setting up the Darwin base

Traffic_Is_Er_Was
9th Jan 2019, 08:05
Lucky for them VA charter them and not Airnorth then. Must be something to do with costs.

Arthur D
9th Jan 2019, 14:11
Evening-

Anybody, thinking HP Disks & Blades- and perchance, Honeywell..........?????

Happy New Year to you all
Rgds
S28- BE

Apparently not s28.

geeup
17th Jan 2019, 19:35
More work for Alliance:D

Well done lads

Alliance Airlines to fly Brisbane-Port Moresby on behalf of Virgin Australia (http://australianaviation.com.au/2019/01/alliance-airlines-to-fly-brisbane-port-moresby-on-behalf-of-virgin-australia/)

tail wheel
17th Jan 2019, 20:33
Figures from the Bureau of Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Economics (BITRE) showed Virgin Australia had an average load factor of 35.2 per cent on its flights from Port Moresby to Brisbane for the 12 months to June 30 2018, with the figure 36.3 per cent for the Brisbane-Port Moresby leg.

Qantas’s load factor on the route over the same period was 65 per cent inbound and 57.1 per cent outbound.

Meanwhile, Air Niugini’s services to Australia recorded load factors of 52.8 per cent, while its flights out of Australia were 52.6 per cent full.

Too much capacity? Over serviced? Too many players? The F100 will reduce Virgin capacity 43% (from 5 x 176, to 5 x 100 each way) although they may lose the premium end of the market. At least their load factor should rise from 36% on the B737-800 to around 63% on the F100.

Chadzat
17th Jan 2019, 20:43
If only VA had E-jets......

Tommy Bahama
17th Jan 2019, 21:54
Virgin should just give up and outsource everything from the Board down.

Berealgetreal
18th Jan 2019, 04:19
Should have had BNE based Ejets.:ok:

Traffic_Is_Er_Was
20th Jan 2019, 02:45
So again VA have picked someone operating Fokkers over someone (anyone) operating Ejets.

airdualbleedfault
20th Jan 2019, 03:57
VH-DSJ, to answer your question yes the 320s are regularly taking 140 plus pax out of those mines, which is 2 x F100 loads, so probably a lot cheaper to run 1 A320 than 2 F100. Also the 320 doesn't have to stop anywhere for fuel due to RTOW restrictions (as a rule) like the Dutch oven sometimes does

hazohag
21st Jan 2019, 00:32
When I was at Alliance, we mostly flew with less than 20 pax between ISA and TEF (Back when the duty was BNE-ISA-TEF-ISA-BNE). Not sure those mining companies really care? That was over 10 years ago mind you. They did fill them up with RPT pax in and out of ISA though.

WannaBeBiggles
21st Jan 2019, 20:41
It's not a route, it's a destination. Airnorth fly to/from Darwin, Alliance flies to/from Cairns. Airnorth has work for the aircraft once back in DRW, Alliance has work for the aircraft once back in CNS. Different economics.


AN also do a weekly run from Cairns to Groote.

I can't say how an old Fokker is cheaper to run, I could be wrong though (anyone know the block burns?). If the operating economics aren't the same or similar to a more modern jet eventually the margin garnered from acquisition cost savings will erode away and it would become more expensive to operate. This is of course based on pure assumption.

This is by no means a comment on Alliance, more a general comment on operating older jet fleets vs. more modern jets.

Traffic_Is_Er_Was
21st Jan 2019, 21:54
I think the AN CNS-GTE is part of their RPT network, not their FIFO stuff. As an aside,back when I was in the Territory, Ansett flew DRW-GTE-CNS and return daily with F28's then BAe146's (2 times a week was GOV I think)
I guess owning upwards of 37 Fokkers, Alliance's advantage is that if there is a job/contract offered tomorrow, they can take it. No startups or ramp ups required.