UK GA Misogyny;Are Female Pilots Denigrated.

[Mike Flynn]

In a long running thread thread here on Pprune there have been serious allegations of misogyny aimed at the mainstream flying community.

I have never really thought about whether a pilot friend is male or female(or indeed gay,trans or anything else).

However recent news stories have suggested that UK and indeed global aviation is a male dominated society.

I have noticed the British Women Pilots Association are not raising their heads above the parapet to substantiate these claims of misogyny in the press and media.

So if we have an issue regarding lack off opportunities for women can someone please highlight.

[Nurse2Pilot]

Care to link such stories? I don't think it's a lack of opportunities; you can have all the opportunities there but if there are no takers, there's really nothing else you can do.

[CEM1]

I flew as a PPL for many years and never encountered any sort of misogyny, indeed quite the reverse. I was always made very welcome at every club I visited and given every encouragement to continue my training and broaden my flying experience. Yes, being female meant that I was always in a minority but that never bothered me, and it clearly never bothered any of my (mainly male) flying colleagues or instructors either. I have an interest in aviation medicine and did have several discussions with instructors about how some felt that male and female students tended to have different learning styles, and sometimes tended towards different types of flying careers (sweeping generalisations, of course) but that was just based on our observations, not misogyny! I may have to dust off that PPL one of these days as I am missing being part of the flying community!

[S205-18F]

I learned to fly in 2004 and trained along with two women. Both were considerably younger than me, I never treated them any different or looked on them differently. After gaining our PPLs we often hired an aircraft and flew each sector in turn with great amounts of slagging and teasing we all took our turn at buying tea and bickies at the various airports. They both went on to become commercial pilots and have very successful careers. Since then I have had the privileged to fly as a Paramedic on Helimed 5 with my flight crew being female. To be called a misogynist on another forum by a very bitter self centered woman actually hurt more than I would care to admit! My home airfield is Cumbernauld and there is a very good proportion of excellent female pilots there and have trained there not 50/50 I admit. I can name 8 female pilots that I know 6 of whom have gone commercial.

[Nurse2Pilot]

Just because the population is 52% male and 48% female does not mean we'll see that proportion in everything from CEOs to businessmen to doctors to nurses to midwives to garbage collectors to sewer cleaners. Anyone who expects this to be the case needs a head check.

[longwings]

You know what re TCT... Let it go.

I am not personally a brave pilot, but will will happily recognise any outstanding achievements blind to sex or orientation...it really is of no relevance. The misogyny thing is diversionary rubbish as we all know.

Let us just applaud all genuine achievements

Longwings...out

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'm the ubiquitous white, straight male - so could reasonably be accused of not seeing the whole picture.

Frankly, yes, I've see sexism and racism - mostly but not only displayed by people who, well, look like me. But from grown up aviation professionals - virtually none.

From people from the fringes, people who don't hold aviation professional qualifications - yes I have. The closer you get to the core of professionalism, no you don't.

I recall a friend, a now retired lady helicopter instructor in conversation saying that she saw little or no sexism from any qualified pilot, but often experienced it from potential new students who were clearly extremely unhappy about the idea of a woman flying instructor. I recall a (now thankfully eased out) manager in the organisation I work for who would regularly disparage appointment of young professional women as "they'd just go and get pregnant". Invariably these young women were better qualified than he was. The new immediate colleagues of those young women, when I appointed them - quite rightly just treated her as a fellow professional, and judged them by that yardstick.

So it's out there - but in my experience not amongst aviation grown ups. Hence, I think that accusations directed at the great and good of the sport flying organisations are, frankly, utter cobblers.

G

[Colibri49]

You know what re TCT... Let it go.

I am not personally a brave pilot, but will will happily recognise any outstanding achievements blind to sex or orientation...it really is of no relevance. The misogyny thing is diversionary rubbish as we all know.

Let us just applaud all genuine achievements

Longwings...out


Sorry but I don't agree with "Let it go" and I'm surely not the only one who feels that it's wrong how she has portrayed us so negatively to the world at large and appears to be getting away with it. She seems to have the ear of well-connected people who are either completely taken in by her version of events, or aren't particularly concerned about the exact truth and whether her deceptions have benefitted her undeservedly,

It seems likely that her anticipated book will perpetuate her tissue of half-truths and it would be a pity if no-one is willing to write and get published an antidote to such toxicity. Obviously this isn't the best forum to achieve some redress, but it's a start.

[ChampChump]

I think Genghis has it. That matches my experience, although I am only a recreational pilot. Today's example: non-flying visitors at the airfield were told that the aeroplane they were admiring was mine. 'Oh, do you fly it?' was the response, one that would not have been made were I not female, I'm certain. When the conversation moves on, such attitudes do too, so it's not all bad.

The only general, not personal, sexist comment from the flying world I've experienced was from a winch driver - in 1988.

[YPJT]

The misogyny thing is diversionary rubbish as we all know.
And there is the whole issue summed up in one sentence beautifully.

[ChickenHouse]

And there is the whole issue summed up in one sentence beautifully.
Maybe even further. One killer application and driving force in evolution was the division of labor, or better to speak specialisation. The current destructable force towards turning evolutions history wheel back to a religious quota based equality of individuals is a mistake. There is no sense in a fifty percent quota of pug dogs and greyhounds in a dog race, no matter how hard you train the pug.

The discussion on misogyny appears to be poisioned by the longing for getting unearned advantages, not to equal chances.

An airmen is an airmen, no matter if man or woman. What people bothers most is - you can measure it.

[Piper.Classique]

For many years I shared an aeroplane with my husband, and we took turns as P1. The general assumption was usually that he was flying as the pilot and I was passenger. Unless I was taking him to a fly in run by women for women, when I used to hear HIM getting the "do you fly too" question.
He doesn't fly now, so I got myself a little autogiro, which though technically a two seater now has an auxiliary fuel tank taking up the passenger seat. So far when flying that, no one has asked me if I can fly as well. So, if you don't like being patronised, get a single seater.
I don't think men mean to annoy us by their assumption that the husband is the pilot, but it's true far more men than women fly for recreation. We need to change society in general before flying clubs will change.

[Cows getting bigger]

An analogy.

Mrs CGB has both a pilots licence and a driving licence. I would say that approximately 95% of the time we go out in the car, I drive. Is that misogyny? No. If asked, she tells me she's just happy for me to drive as she she's the whole thing as a bit of a chore.

Different people, different ways.

[Armchairflyer]

That women are less likely to (want to) fly an aircraft than men is neither misogynist nor sexist but a simple observation and can be explained by quite authoritative evidence on sex differences regarding interest for things vs. people (and why this would be something that ought to be changed is beyond me).

That those women who do fly are in any way systematically inferior to their male counterparts is not only misogynist and sexist, but complete rubbish -- just as there is authoritative evidence for differences in interest, there is equally authoritative evidence against any differences in potential, aptitude, skill etc..

When seeing a couple and an aircraft, a first guess that the man is the pilot is simply an evidence-based assumption. Any guess that he is the better pilot is at best a chauvinist fantasy.

[AnglianAV8R]

My GST/GFT or whatever it's called was conducted under the supervision of a lady examiner. She reminded me of those wonderful ATA ladies, for whom I have the greatest admiration.

As for misogyny in aviation, what utter tripe. Even Saudi Arabia has women pilots, although I'm not sure if they can drive cars yet ? However, I'm sure that will be a mere formality, once they've cracked that reverse parking malarkey.

[meleagertoo]

The only sex discrimination I ever noticed in 30 years of aviation was that the girls often seemed to get hired a damn sight quicker and easier than the boys, and often with less experience too but I suppose those with an axe to grind would suggest this is due to sexist attitudes by red-blooded male chief pilots.
Of the girls I flew with in 737 and Airbus I think on average thay were at a higher standard than the boys - or at least there were fewer towards the lower end of the spectrum. I always attributed this to their feeling that they had to prove themselves and so made more effort and took more care rather than any inate ability.

[Dave Gittins]

Of my last half dozen "BFRs" three have been carried out by ladies, two of the last three in fact. I'm with Genghis and CC. I've practically never encountered misogyny in aviation.

With Martha Lunken about and writing, what's not to admire in lady pilots ?

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

The last time I flew was at Sherburn in Elmet, we had a fabulous day and were made very welcome by all and sundry. Great flight around Yorkshire and then back for lunch with some of the regulars (young and old, male and female). Nothing special about that except I was with my youngest child who happens to be trans-gender. So if anyone wants to say I am sexist or misogynist then they can try; for me gender matters not one jot and is just as unimportant as the colour of the socks someone chooses to wear.

This is why I get so angry when people use gender as a tool in an argument they are losing or use it to suit their ambitions when they can, and it is just one of many reasons why I became involved in the "other threads". If anyone has to play the race/religion/sex card in a debate then I know they have no real grounds to support their claims and are just scrabbling at an excuse.

A very good friend of mine was so proud when his daughter was selected to start commercial pilot training on some scholarship programme about 5 years ago, at the time it was something she wanted to do and there were no barriers in her way. Is she a line-pilot now? No she isn't because she gave up having decided that it just wasn't what SHE wanted to do.

[mary meagher]

We women are more conservative and careful than men, who usually have more money than the girls. My first flight was over Tampa Bay, Florida, in 1944, and after that life got more complicated. With 4 kids to raise, not a lot of spare time or money. So not until 1983, noticing the gliders crossing the M40 at High Wycombe, had another go....never forget sitting in the front seat of the K13, tug towline getting tight, do I really want to do this! .....and the tug powered up, and we followed it over the hedge, and that was IT! since then, never stopped flying.

[Skipname]

That women are less likely to (want to) fly an aircraft than men is neither misogynist nor sexist but a simple observation and can be explained by quite authoritative evidence on sex differences regarding interest for things vs. people (and why this would be something that ought to be changed is beyond me).

You better get in line with today's line of thought or risk the mob rule. There are no differences between men and women, we are all the same, fact! :E

[Clare Prop]

Was a time there was some sour grapes and remarks about casting couches from guys who didn't get a job they wanted because they weren't good enough but I haven't heard anything like that for about 20 years.
Other than that I haven't encountered any misogyny personally in 30 years and nearly 13,000 hours of flying professionally.
Probably about 15% of my students are women.
As for having babies, becoming a father is on of the most common reasons for students to stop training.
Women who play the gender card show a lack of respect for those who have got ahead by merit. They certainly shouldn't be seen as any kind of role model, quite the reverse.
The barrier to entry is money!

[Romeo Tango]

My experience (copied from a similar thread):

I'm male but I gave my wife flying lessons to PPL as a wedding present. She is not stupid but found the whole subject quite alien. We men absorb quite a lot of the technical stuff over the years, many (more) of us have done physics O-level/GCSE so we know vaguely some of how an aeroplane works, we probably have picked up the principles of 4 stroke engines etc etc. All this was new to her so made the whole learning curve much steeper. She persevered and passed her GFT when 8 months pregnant. A month later she had the baby followed by another and (unsurprisingly) did not want to fly in a light aircraft again for some years and has never renewed her licence. Now she knows enough to .... comment on how I do it https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/bah.gif

[Piper.Classique]

not a lot of spare time or money.
The barrier to entry is money!

And that's kind of the point, isn't it?
Because men on the whole get paid more than women. Not many genuine equal pay jobs around, even if the basic salary is the same the people bearing and raising the children can't do the overtime, and often have career breaks, which don't help promotion prospects. So there is less to spend on toys. Unless the higher earning partner shares the toys.
At least that's easier to do with an aeroplane than with a set of golf clubs.

A month later she had the baby followed by another and (unsurprisingly) did not want to fly in a light aircraft again for some years and has never renewed her licence

I've seen a lot of women stop flying for fun when they have a baby, and on the whole they don't start again.

[AnglianAV8R]

Now she knows enough to .... comment on how I do it https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/bah.gif

You brought that on yourself

chortle

[ColonelBlimp]

I've just re-validated my UK PPL SEP Rating after a two and a half year break from 24 years of flying microlights, when I wanted to fly a heavier aeroplane I had recently bought . Because I'm a big fat b*stard I needed to fly a four seater to stay legal with another person on board for my LPC, who was going to be a chunky male examiner.

It was 26 years since I had last flown a Cessna 172 in Cyprus, but my female instructor was brilliant. She summed me and my modest abilities up very quickly, spoke quietly in the cockpit and gave positive reinforcement as I got my eye back in. Her gentle reminders and minimal but accurate criticism restored my skills very quickly. Before I did my LPC flight, a female pilot in the club who had the same female instructor passed her Skills Test with the best performance the examiner had seen all year.

I don't denigrate females at anything, they are just as capable as men, if not more so, and are often easier to teach as they don't have a male ego getting in the way of the learning process. When I was an advanced sub-aqua diving instructor, I preferred teaching women every time!

[hoodie]

So perhaps a summary is:

It's what's under the hat, not what's in the underwear, that counts.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

As for having babies, becoming a father is on of the most common reasons for students to stop training.
When we started having babies I gave up flying for thirteen years - all our money was going on child care.

[Genghis the Engineer]

When we started having babies I gave up flying for thirteen years - all our money was going on child care.
I've noticed in my other interest of martial arts, a very high dropout rate of men who stop training within a few months of starting a family.

(Sadly the participation rate of women is too low to generalise about anything.)

G

[Deltasierra010]

At my at my club we have maybe 5 or 6 ladies that fly solo in gliders, a few others enjoy flying dual, they are safe cautious pilots, it need not cost a lot, flying locally in a club glider is not expensive, or you can instruct even fly the tug. Most women have other interests that they would rather spend the cash on and I would say that their risk perception is higher that men's perception.
However like any male dominated activity you are going to encounter dinosaurs, let's not pretend they don't exist, the lady pilots that I know have ample self confidence to "handle" any sexist comments, self confidence is pretty much essential for any pilot. I will say that women make very good instructors, they are safe cautious pilots, rather than risk takers pushing the boundaries.
I don't expect there will ever be more than 10% of any pilots women, those that do enjoy it are every bit as good as the men.

[Mike Flynn]

We women are more conservative and careful than men, who usually have more money than the girls. My first flight was over Tampa Bay, Florida, in 1944, and after that life got more complicated. With 4 kids to raise, not a lot of spare time or money. So not until 1983, noticing the gliders crossing the M40 at High Wycombe, had another go....never forget sitting in the front seat of the K13, tug towline getting tight, do I really want to do this! .....and the tug powered up, and we followed it over the hedge, and that was IT! since then, never stopped flying.

Mary kindly sent me a complimentary copy of her book,Gliding Granny, some time ago.

Now 85 she is still involved in gliding.

This from the Banbury Guardian May 2016

Gliding Granny on Final Approach

by Mary Meagher

In this fascinating book, Mary Meagher, a retired gliding instructor, tug pilot and aircraft owner, looks back over her flying life. Mary tells us how she learnt to glide, then to qualify as an instructor and to take part in flying rallies, including representing the UK in a Women´s European Championship held in the Russia. Her longest flight was over 500 kilometres and her highest to 20,300 feet. She toured Europe in her Supercub and flew hired aircraft in the USA, where she also gained a seaplane rating. One chapter examines why few women fly and gives details of some famous women pilots of the past. Because Mary is a member of the Guild of Aviation Artists, the book is illustrated with many of her beautiful paintings, as well as with superb aerial photographs.



https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x467/11d45210_302d_4819_bbb9_6c9ac1fae6f2_d594e26fc0b236b90f7267b 8441e277f13c3c617.jpeg

[mary meagher]

Thanks, Mike! That's me in the back seat of a K13 glider at Shenington....still sit there but need a safety pilot these days. Actually, since I lost a bit of weight its a lot easer to climb in and out!

[Duchess_Driver]

Misogyny is perhaps to strong a word. I’ll wager that there are very few misogynistic pilots, but perhaps slightly more chauvinistic ones. Generally though, I would say females in aviation are treated with the same respect as their male counterparts.

It is an unfortunate fact, however, that there are a very small minority of younger Arabic students who (because of their cultural upbringing) have problems with women in aviation. A quick “that’s not happening here” chat and they soon settle down.

[megan]

One operator (male) prefers to employ lady drivers as he rekons they look after the machinery better than blokes. One lass was a bit miffed though, in uniform with bars and wings, and boarding pax asked if she was the hostess. Society still has a way to go to avoid stereotyping.

[Hydromet]

Well, my #1 daughter yesterday (today in the USA where she is) passed her PPL exam, so needless to say I'm pretty proud. As far as I know, and we discuss these things, so I think I would, she's never encountered any bias in the aviation community, either there or in Australia. However, it was quite different in her career as a software engineer when she started early this century. Fortunately, she is a strong enough person to stand up for herself, and it seems things have improved quite a bit since then.

[Clare Prop]

I've noticed in my other interest of martial arts, a very high dropout rate of men who stop training within a few months of starting a family.

(Sadly the participation rate of women is too low to generalise about anything.)

G

Not in our dojo; Sensei, her sister and the other 7 of the 8 black belts are women, among the seniors about 90% women and among the juniors it's about 50/50, Maybe we scared all the men away?

[runway30]

You might like to read an interview with a lady who sadly passed away on Saturday

https://london.mfa.gov.pl/en/news/polka100/izabela_lechowicz/

RIP

[Lind1795]

Thank you for that link runway30. Isabella obviously possessed the correct attitude and attributes to become a successful and professional pilot. She is a fine example to all pilots. How very tragic her life, and those of the others in the helicopter, have ended so abruptly. RIP to all.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Not in our dojo; Sensei, her sister and the other 7 of the 8 black belts are women, among the seniors about 90% women and among the juniors it's about 50/50, Maybe we scared all the men away?
Out of interest, what style?

G

[Clare Prop]

Out of interest, what style?

G

Shotokan..

[Genghis the Engineer]

Ah, suspected as such.

I think that being essentially entirely standing, with physical contact limited to hitting and kicking each other bit, karate styles like that are relatively female friendly.

For perhaps understandable reasons, Jiu Jitsu / Judo styles that involve a lot more grappling tend to be less popular. I get on very well with the local kenpo karate sensei, and offered to do a swap to give our students a bit of experience of each others styles, he refused completely as he felt that introducing grappling into his class would be extremely unpopular with his female students.

G

[Clare Prop]

He was right!

[sharpend]

In a long running thread thread here on Pprune there have been serious allegations of misogyny aimed at the mainstream flying community.

I have noticed the British Women Pilots Association are not raising their heads above the parapet to substantiate these claims of misogyny in the press and media.





Firstly, in my experience, there is absolutely no misogyny regarding email pilots. With the exception of a very few (same with men), they make excellent pilots. My wife is a typical example.

However, we both agree that the very existence of the 'British Women Pilots Association' is sexist. Imagine what some people would say if there was a 'British Men Pilots Association'. Same with the Black Policemen Association. Is that racist? I'm sure we would not be allowed to have a Whiteman version. As far as I am concerned, Pilots are pilots, whether they are black, green, female, gay or whatever. A pilot is a pilot.

[jonkster]

However, we both agree that the very existence of the 'British Women Pilots Association' is sexist. Imagine what some people would say if there was a 'British Men Pilots Association'. Same with the Black Policemen Association. Is that racist? I'm sure we would not be allowed to have a Whiteman version. As far as I am concerned, Pilots are pilots, whether they are black, green, female, gay or whatever. A pilot is a pilot.

I sort of see your point but think if you are an identifiable minority within a group, there actually is a place for such sub groups. You are part of a smaller band and the comraderie from belonging to a small group feels good.

eg I think groups/clubs or organisations like The Tailwheel Pilot's Association or a Gruman Pilots Group or the Goldfish Club or whatever, makes perfect sense. Not so much 'the nose wheel pilots and navigators association' or 'the pilots who have never ditched a plane yet club' or 'the honourable group of fixed wing owners'.

Most pilot's are male by a big margin - why not a female pilot's group? Female pilots aren't common. Doesn't make them better or worse, just makes them a smaller group.

If most pilots were female then I reckon a male pilot's organisation would be fine. If that was how it was, I would probably want to join! not for any reason other than appreciating and revelling in that I and my fellows are different from your typical pilot. :)

I think we sometimes try and make simply acknowledging separatedness and enjoying the comraderie of that as more philosophical and political than it needs to be. Nothing to do with with racism or equality - a lot to do with enjoying being out of the run of the mill.

If female pilots become much more common I would suspect the various female only pilot's clubs or organisations would fade away. Until then - why not?

My 2c

[Dutystude]

I sort of see your point but think if you are an identifiable minority within a group, there actually is a place for such sub groups. You are part of a smaller band and the comraderie from belonging to a small group feels good.

eg I think groups/clubs or organisations like The Tailwheel Pilot's Association or a Gruman Pilots Group or the Goldfish Club or whatever, makes perfect sense. Not so much 'the nose wheel pilots and navigators association' or 'the pilots who have never ditched a plane yet club' or 'the honourable group of fixed wing owners'.

Most pilot's are male by a big margin - why not a female pilot's group? Female pilots aren't common. Doesn't make them better or worse, just makes them a smaller group.

If most pilots were female then I reckon a male pilot's organisation would be fine. If that was how it was, I would probably want to join! not for any reason other than appreciating and revelling in that I and my fellows are different from your typical pilot. :)

I think we sometimes try and make simply acknowledging separatedness and enjoying the comraderie of that as more philosophical and political than it needs to be. Nothing to do with with racism or equality - a lot to do with enjoying being out of the run of the mill.

If female pilots become much more common I would suspect the various female only pilot's clubs or organisations would fade away. Until then - why not?

My 2c

Spot on.

Such nonsense does nothing to aid the fight against true bigotry.

[Crash one]

Misogyny in any discipline is a very delicate subject to discuss.
A woman can easily quote percentages and blame the men for the result.
Men, as in the recent debacle, would find it difficult to prove that they are not being misogynistic.
We can all sit here being indignant and righteous etc, but there are situations where women are not suitable, Gengis and Clare Prop have mentioned one, I think the military is another. Women demanding the right to fight on the front line for instance.
There is a big difference between being treated equally and being the same. What would the prognosis be in the case of a squad of soldiers containing six men and two women all in the age bracket of 20/25 captured by the typical enemy they would face today? Being capable of an afternoon jaunt up the Brecon Beacons with full kit is all very well, surrounded by your own side!
It would be, in my opinion, perfectly natural for the men to attempt to protect the women and put their own lives in jeopardy in the process. Or a female solo fighter pilot. No doubt she could use the aircraft just as effectively as a man, but what does she face when she gets shot down? And how do her superiors feel about it?

[Genghis the Engineer]

I did not "mention" any circumstance where women are, in my opinion, unsuitable in a flying role.

G

[hoodie]

Consider recent extraordinary award citations for women in (e.g.) Afghanistan and Iraq. Any suggestion that they are fundamentally unsuited for front line roles in the military is obviously flawed.

Examples:

Pte Michelle Norris, MC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Norris) (Pleasingly, I see that her nickname is given as "Chuck". :D)

Flt Lt Michelle Goodman DFC (https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/online-exhibitions/women-of-the-air-force/women-in-the-raf-today/citation-and-distinguished-flying-cross-awarded-to-flight-lieutenant-michelle-goodman.aspx)

[Crash one]

Genghis.
I didn’t mean “in a flying role” I meant situations (general) sorry it was unclear. I was referring to your martial arts comments.
However it does prove that it is a delicate subject!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Nothing they can't do - some things a majority of women *may* decide they dislike.

G

[Crash one]

hoodie
You have completely missed the point I was making.
I did state that a female could no doubt use the aircraft just as well as a man.
I am merely stating/thinking that men are (generally) programmed to protect their women.
It may not be PC to do that in this day and age, in which case, my apologies, I’m obviously too old and decrepit to have noticed.
Delicate subject!? Jesus!

[hoodie]

I didn't miss your point - I disagree with it.

I don't think it is valid, and provided some evidence why not.

[clareprop]

Consider recent extraordinary award citations for women in (e.g.) Afghanistan and Iraq. Any suggestion that they are fundamentally unsuited for front line roles in the military is obviously flawed.

Indeed and given nearly a million women served in front line positions in the Soviet Union during WW2 with a number of them receiving the highest award possible, I find it strange these sorts of discussions are still continuing seventy five years on.

[Haraka]

I was a very junior party to some of the discussions regarding the physiological limitations of women flying combat aircraft many years ago.
In one exchange ,the point was put forward that women could: "Suffer a prolapsed uterus during ejection "
The counter to this was a classic; " You are talking about one of the most powerful muscle systems in the Human Body"
"Err ......How strong?"
"Enough to break a man's wrist. Would you like me to introduce you to some Gynecologist friends of mine? "

[megan]

As a male I know there are ladies who far exceed my humble abilities, both mentally and in physical prowess. Prior to going to Vietnam, serving as a Navy pilot, I had to do some "grunting" with the Army, and I can tell you in no uncertain terms that I would have been a liability to any grunt squad, I just wasn't equipped with the necessary physical attributes to be lugging a ton of weight on my back, weapon etc. I was the runt in the family, though my brother was a strapping lad and served in the conflict as an Army infantryman. Irrespective of sex, mental capability or physicality each has a niche. Nice to see the ladies filling all, plumber, electrician, carpentry, pilot, or whatever.

[Crash one]

Due to the recent posts regarding the military I believe my previous posts have been seriously mis understood.
i am not questioning the bravery, capabilities or suitability for any task in the military by women.
I was trying to imagine how I would feel in a situation where a squad were captured by the type of enemy that the world is facing today. Bloodthirsty terrorists that do not just kill people!!
I would not like to be forced to watch as a female companion in the squad was being gang raped repeatedly or whatever else they may choose to do to a female as opposed to a male prisoner.
My posts were merely trying to point out MY view in THAT situation.
If that attitude is considered misogyny then I have seriously misjudged the compassion of the human race today.
I do not care one bit if the female were to say. “I accept the risk”. I (me) would rather not.
Citing acts of extreme bravery by women in the face of such risks does not address the issue.

[Genghis the Engineer]

To be frank, if you have any more, or less problem with a woman versus a man being emprisoned, tortured or killed : or simply being exposed to risk - that is an issue you need to address with your own innate sexism. Making that a restriction on somebody else is totally unreasonable.

G

[Crash one]

Genghis
You are standing in a queue, it is raining heavily, you are wearing a raincoat carrying an umbrella. A man and a woman, not a couple, both unsuitably dressed for the weather, join the queue. Do you offer your umbrella? Who to?

[Clare Prop]

To be frank, if you have any more, or less problem with a woman versus a man being emprisoned, tortured or killed : or simply being exposed to risk - that is an issue you need to address with your own innate sexism. Making that a restriction on somebody else is totally unreasonable.

G

So true, this. It implies that women are weak or cowardly.
My uncle used to land his Lysander behind enemy lines to pick up SOE agents in WW2, many of them women, very very brave women. I doubt there was time to offer them an umbrella.
If that makes you uncomfortable then you underestimate us.

[Duchess_Driver]

@crash one. I know where you are coming from with that sentiment- as a young child and even into my late teens my father would guide me to be a “protective” element towards the women in my life. That’s just the way it was then. Centuries of male “dominance” of the social environment/work place caused that conditioning to a point where what was deemed acceptable for a male to endure would make the blood boil if a female were subjected to the same.

However, society (rightly so) has moved to a more (not yet totally) equal footing where what one human endures should not cause any difference in our emotional response. I am frequently being called a dinosaur by my kids for some engrained “responses”. Apparently you’re not allowed to do “gentlemanly” things anymore🤔!

There should be no restriction on what anybody is allowed to do in life and I am a firm believer that if anybody can do the job and accept the associated risks then they should be allowed to follow that path. As GTE states, in the scenario you put forward we should be equally horrified in mans inhumanity towards fellow man - regardless of race, gender, age or (dis)ability.

[Piper.Classique]

Crash one, may I humbly suggest that when you have dug yourself into a really deep hole it is time to stop digging?

[Crash one]

Crash one, may I humbly suggest that when you have dug yourself into a really deep hole it is time to stop digging?

Well, I’ve always considered myself respectful of others regardless of gender.
If what I have said amounts to misogyny or sexism. I would suggest that that notion is nothing short of ‘kin bull****e.
As for the old chestnut cliche of hole digging. That is often trotted out in cases where people can’t be bothered to think and consider what has been said and make some snap decision that the hole digger must be a seriously bad bar steward.
My sincere apologies ladies and gentlemen, or should I say, Terans of Sol three. I obviously have upset everyone.

Clare prop.
I have never, ever, suggested that women were weak or cowardly, I find that an insult.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think perhaps some are mixing up sexism and mysogeny here. They're not the same thing.

G

[MadamBreakneck]

Oh, go on then, I'll jump in (I usually just lurk when I'm here these days)

As a result of a brilliant, counter-cultural suggestion by my mum when I was choosing my degree subject many decades ago, I ended up with a career in a male-dominated environment. I was also an occasional recreational pilot. In those environments, I did encounter sexism, sometimes deliberate as a competitive ploy though more usually just casual; but misogyny? Never.

Maybe I've been lucky.

MB

PS. I see Genghis beat me to that point whilst I was typing

[Chris Martyr]

Come along now people . [of both sexes]
Let us value each other as human beings . The male sex cannot survive without the female sex . [or vice-versa] Despite the perceptions of some of todays modern generation of 'intellectuals' . Having respect for our fellow human beings , regardless of gender , is the key to our continued survival .

The person whose rather conveniently twisted values lie behind this debate , is only using the misogyny ploy because all else has failed . We can rise above that , can't we !

[Armchairflyer]

Pejoratively labeling all arguments by Crash One as sexist strikes me as somewhat OTT. Are the thoughts of this accomplished female soldier (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/work/putting-women-soldiers-like-me-on-the-front-line-is-dangerous/) thus sexist, too? Or does she merely know what she is talking about? Or both?

Agreed, though, that trying to curb anyone's discretion in his/her personal decision regarding risk-taking with the argument that this might hurt the protective impetus of members of the other sex might be well-intentioned but is not a tenable position IMO.

[Crash one]

Pejoratively labeling all arguments by Crash One as sexist strikes me as somewhat OTT. Are the thoughts of this accomplished female soldier (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/work/putting-women-soldiers-like-me-on-the-front-line-is-dangerous/) thus sexist, too? Or does she merely know what she is talking about? Or both?

Agreed, though, that trying to curb anyone's discretion in his/her personal decision regarding risk-taking with the argument that this might hurt the protective impetus of members of the other sex might be well-intentioned but is not a tenable position IMO.

Well at least one ex military person agrees with my views exactly. I shall consider myself vindicated.
As for trying to curb anyone’s personal descision on risk taking.
I was Royal Navy, flight deck crash and rescue. I would have no concerns entering a serious fuel fire with a female partner to attempt the rescue.

[cats_five]

<snip>
I would not like to be forced to watch as a female companion in the squad was being gang raped repeatedly or whatever else they may choose to do to a female as opposed to a male prisoner.
<snip>

Have you not heard that male prisoners get raped as well?

[Haraka]

Have you not heard that male prisoners get raped as well?
Reminds me of the quote in "Bravo Two Zero"



"Well at least they can't get us pregnant"

[Sir Niall Dementia]

I'm not a sexist mysoginist, and I have the present Lady Dementia's permission to say so!

SND

[Crash one]

I think perhaps some are mixing up sexism and mysogeny here. They're not the same thing.

G

I think some are getting sexism mixed up with decent good manners, often by women.

[Crash one]

Have you not heard that male prisoners get raped as well?


Yes I have. And the point being??

[John R81]

Fascinating!

I have nothing to contribute, this debate being so far from my own world, which can be summed up succinctly in this song
in this song.

(Edited to add 35 years married and very, very happy, in case you thought of asking)

[Chris Martyr]

John R81 .
Well done for coming to the rescue with a bit of humour . I reckon that old Milt just about kinda sums up how most of us feel about all of this !

I also reckon that ,that "M" word has just about outstayed its welcome on here too . As for the person who inspired this thread with her hollow and rather nasty accusations ...?

Well , hopefully she will disappear into oblivion too - and take her baseless and spiteful accusations with her !

[ShyTorque]

Chris,
As the saying goes:
Hell hath no fury like a...person...scorned!

[Piper.Classique]

I'm sure none of the people who want to protect women, and who are posting here (often at great length) are being deliberately rude or patronising. I suspect that were I to meet them in person we would get on pretty well. That's the trouble with internet fora, it's too easy to be misunderstood. Now for the but.....
if you see me arrive by air, and I get out of the aircraft with a man on board, please don't assume that I'm the passenger. Whichever seat with controls I was sitting in. Because I could be a) flying
b) instructing c) passenger. So if you ask me "do you fly too dear?" I might be getting tired of hearing that question. Believe me, I have heard it more than enough times.
Second point. Women are individuals. So are men. Politeness is always welcome. So, by all means open a door for me, or offer me a seat. I too will do that for anyone who looks as if they need it more than I do. I hope they will say "thank you" whether they accept it or not. I do. Now, can we please not let the miserable specimen who caused all this mayhem set us against each other?

[ChampChump]

I couldn't express it better. :ok:

[Crash one]

Thank you ladies.

[Bergerie1]

Piper,Classique,

Well said!

I was taught to fly by a woman pilot back in 1959 and she set me off on the road to good aviating. We still keep in touch and she is an example to us all - male or female.

[Sir Niall Dementia]

And for the politically incorrect amongst us:
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x562/politically_correct_6a1b4f5ab8922468771db93ee0d69063f890dedf .jpg

Hat, coat, Taxiii!!!!!!

SND

[Mike Flynn]

I'm sure none of the people who want to protect women, and who are posting here (often at great length) are being deliberately rude or patronising. I suspect that were I to meet them in person we would get on pretty well. That's the trouble with internet fora, it's too easy to be misunderstood. Now for the but.....
if you see me arrive by air, and I get out of the aircraft with a man on board, please don't assume that I'm the passenger. Whichever seat with controls I was sitting in. Because I could be a) flying
b) instructing c) passenger. So if you ask me "do you fly too dear?" I might be getting tired of hearing that question. Believe me, I have heard it more than enough times.
Second point. Women are individuals. So are men. Politeness is always welcome. So, by all means open a door for me, or offer me a seat. I too will do that for anyone who looks as if they need it more than I do. I hope they will say "thank you" whether they accept it or not. I do. Now, can we please not let the miserable specimen who caused all this mayhem set us against each other?

As well as having the necessary double barrel name Mrs Cholmondley-Warner could not have put it better.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Mind you, (some) non pilot females could do everybody a favour when they get out of an aeroplane, and I talk to them assuming that they "might" be the pilot, by not responding with incredulity to the possibility.

Sexism, and the assumption that some things are beyond women, is sadly not restricted to men.

G

[ChampChump]

Our mission is to amend that a bit.

[Sam Rutherford]

Not GA, but perhaps relevant: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46071689

[Mike Flynn]

There is a nice sidebar to that story Sam.



The female pilot teaching African women to fly


Fourteen-year-old Paballo (Pabi) Leqhotsa jumps out of the pilot seat of a four-seater Cessna monoplane giddy with delight.

"It was amazing. I felt like I was in control, do you understand?" she says, spinning round in excitement. Taking control of an aircraft was something the teenager from Soweto, a township just outside Johannesburg, had dreamed of since she was little.

She stands on the runway at Grand Central Airport and whoops with pure joy; the words of delight streaming out of her.

"Driving Zulu Sierra Papa Whiskey Whiskey (her aircraft's call-sign) was so amazing. It was so amazing!"

The woman behind this euphoria is Refilwe Ledwaba, South Africa's first black woman to have flown for the South African Police Service.




https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44764541