Flying Instructors who refuse to spin

[nonradio]

On the private flying thread there's a comment about instructors who 'refuse to spin'. Assuming the a/c is cleared for spinning, are there any FIs out there who won't spin?

[Stampe]

I prefer to wear a parachute if at all possible though I guess 98% of my spinning has been done without I consider it a sensible precaution (FAA have it spot on).There was a time in my youth 25 years ago when I used to go up and spin for pleasure ,nowadays I prefer not to unless required.I like the aircraft to be in good condition (many club aircraft even with a Public Cof A are not) and I like lots of height at least 3000 ft.agl.after recovery I strongly disapprove of clubs in the London area for example who start at 2400ft QNH.Its an area of flying that is seeing experience levels diminish except in a few specialist areas as most new pilots never ever see a spin even demonstrated.For training I like a nice gentle slow entry spinner both the Tiger Moth and the Stampe seem good in this respect.It would be nice to think that the pilots who carry out the post Cof A test flights carry out the correct tests (3 turns left and right) but I guess a mixture of weather /commercial expediancy and in some cases nervousness by the people authorised to conduct the flights means this part of the test is sometimes shall we say "abbreviated".:eek:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I am happy to.

Aircraft must be one I have flown before for a couple of hours.

Aircraft must be approved and in general good nick.

Will only enter a spin with 5000ft+ agl.

Recovery initiated by no less than 4000ft agl.

No parachute required.

RAS/RIS required.

Weather must be 9999, no more than 3/8ths coverage, no gusty wind.

Student sits on hands - literally - for first two spins, one left, one right.

WWW

[Tinstaafl]

I like spinning.

If it's in a C150/152 Aerobat, looking through the roof windows makes the horizon go past as if it's in one of those 1920's movieola penny arcade machines :D It makes me laugh.

[Loony_Pilot]

I am also happy to spin, providing its a type that is spin approved, and that I've spun with someone more experienced on type. (eg my CFI etc ).
(I'm not at all keen on spinning the PA-38 though)

High enough to recover by 4000ft AGL

Winds not Gusting, good vis, in radio contact with either home airfield or RIS.

Spinning is something that should be taught IMHO, as it gives the student confidence in dealing with tricky situations. Having done it a few times, most students will view it as more of a non-event than they first thought.

I believe the benefits outweigh the minimal risks

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Whilst not being glib, spinning the cessna is not really all that much of a drama(Subject to all of the above common sense precautions being taken)

Most interesting spin ever encountered was in an ex BAE Prestwick AS202 Bravo, used to increase rotation rate and do two more turns after the appropiate recovery action had been taken.

With the cessna more or less sorting itself out if you leave it hands off, we should strictly speaking practise the recovery more often so that the recovery is down to us and our proper technique - not the airplane.

WWW did you used to spin the PA-38? is it all that bad?

[spin doctor]

In Australia, it isn't mandatory to endorse instructor trainees in full spin training, meaning that a lot of instructors aren't endorsed in full spins. When I did my instructor rating, I asked to be endorsed on full spins, however there wasn't (and still isn't) anyone qualified to endorse me, so I haven't got spin approval. This obviously means that my students don't get to experience full spins at all in their training (through no choice of my own) which is the way it is for a lot of students.

I firmly believe that full spins should be demonstrated at least once prior to a student being able to take passengers. There have been too many accidents as a result of low time private pilots doing low and slow manoevers and spinning it in. Had they witnessed one, they would have had a greater appreciation.

[ComJam]

Surely it's an important part of any pilot's training, instructors who refuse to teach it are probably in the wrong job.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

G-SPOTs Lost - the bravos did spin well - an excellent aircraft for what it was used for. Shame they were sold off at criminally little money but thats another story.

Yes I have spun Pa38 Tomahawk II's many many times. Only ever had one refuse to recover at the first attempt. This was from an entry at 8,000ft and recovery at about 6,200ft. Just reset to pro-spin pause, then recovery actions again and out she came.

Strangely the heartbeat didn't go up much until about 5 minutes later.

There really is no problem spinning PA38's. I think Bulldogs could bite you easier and more seriously.

WWW

[big pistons forever]

Canada has just recently removed the requirement for teaching spins from the PPL sylabus. Personnally I think they were half right. The requirement to teach spin recovery prior to solo IMHO only served to scare the pants off most folks who were still a bit overwhelmed by the whole flying thing. However removing the requirement to demonstrate a spin recovery on the PPL flight test is not in my opinion a step forward. In TCs defence they did place more emphasis on spin recognition /avoidance. Personnally when I used to teach the PPL I always set up a base to final stall spin demo and I also got the student to FULLY stall the aircraft and then keep the stick full back and work the rudders to stop the aircraft from departing. This manoever is a particularly effective in the C 150 and convincingly demonstrated that if you control yaw the aircraft will not spin.

[foxmoth]

no problem teaching spinnig in an aircraft that is both approved for spinning AND does it properly, there are to many modern a/c that degrade to easily into a spiral dive, making it difficult to teach spinning properly.

[MJR]

WWW spinning at 8000 ft in a PA38, were you not worried about being running out of fuel after being in the climb for 4 hours.;)

[Send Clowns]

I have spun Bulldogs, Grobs and Fireflies, and all were benign though all had some aerodynamic anti-spin devices, due to poor characteristics of the basic design (Bulldog has spin strakes and a ventral fin, for example). However all were planned recovery by 3000 feet or leave the aircraft by the convenient exit formed by operation of the canopy release. When I have my instructor rating and when cleared I will spin, but not at the heights used by some civvy instructors.

Remember folks, check for fuel balance - even a C-152 will bite you if you spin towards the full wing when it's been feeding from the other! Was the subject of a "learnt about flying from that" I came across. Keep it within 3 gallons.

[A and C]

If you dont feel happy about spinning then you should not be instructing.

On a number of occasions a student has had a good go at getting me into an unintentional spin , what are the chances of a recovery if you dont practice once in a wile ?.

The only valid reason that I can see for an instructior not to instruct spinning is if repeated spins make him/her ill and then they should practice once in a wile to stay current.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

MJR - this was in a souped up PA38. At the end of a rather lengthy instruments lesson in the climb...

WWW

[fibod]

Agree with A&C. It's part of the job; required to teach pilots to handle their aircraft safely. If an instructor is not comfortable with flying to the edge of the envelope, beyond and back again safely, then they should find another job.

[muppet]

I saw this thread title and just had to have a look, yep there it is just a couple of posts in the good old 'lets slag of the PA38'.


Phew I am back now after having ran around the cat screamng.

But hang on......WWW...... yes someone who knows what he is talking about.


There is nothing wrong with spinning PA38s I do it, the guy who tought me, did it, my examiner for my instructor rating made me do it and I love it. They behave perfectly, enter properly, recover gently, wait....the spin WILL tighten (which I think is where some may faulter) and then recovery occurs.

Climb up do it again.

Beats doing 4i any day.

[Gen Ties]

Quite a few statements similiar to that of fibods.

If an instructor is not comfortable with flying to the edge of the envelope, beyond and back again safely, then they should find another job

To my knowledge there is no requirement for CFI's, Grade 1, 2 or 3 to have to be able to (or want to ) spin an aircraft (in Australia, that is). All that is required is that they have demonstrated that the he can exit a spin. The reason for that being quite obvious.

Therefore if the Regulator does not make it a requirment, and it is not part of the job description; why is the feeling that Instructor is less of an Instructor for not wanting to teach and worse, the feeling that he should not even be instructing.

Seems to me that there are enough testosterone loaded instructors out there to go around without all of us having to do it. I would hazard a guess some have even posted here on this subject. ;)

I used to teach it, and even used to enjoy it, but age and a few frights convinced me to let others do it

Yep, I voted to refuse.

[hombre_007]

I have spun only 152a aircraft, and of the 12 in our fleet there is one specifically that never comes out 1st go. Apart from that i find it not at all a worry to spin and believe every student should see one at some stage in their training.

[Charlie32]

I agree spinning should be available, and recommended to improve confidence. Unfortunately our ageing fleet of warriors will barely wing drop, and are not cleared for spinning. A pity.

[slim_slag]

muppet

There is nothing wrong with spinning PA38s I do it, the guy who tought me, did it, my examiner for my instructor rating made me do it and I love it. They behave perfectly, enter properly, recover gently, wait....the spin WILL tighten (which I think is where some may faulter) and then recovery occurs.

Sure... another "I've spun a traumahawk and survived" story :)

But I don't believe there is evidence that the Tomahawk actually passed the FAA's stall/spin recovery tests for initial certification, and if it was to do so today it would fail. The fatality rate for unrecovered spins is several times that of equivalent trainers. I guess at the end of the day its all a risk/reward analysis, which should change if you carry passengers.

I've never spun one, never will (intentionally), but I hear the tail twists and turns quite spectacularly during the maneuver. Have you taken a look behind you, is it as hairy as they say?

To the thread, people should not think they know how to spin an airplane purely because they have the three spins required to get their instructor's ticket. Sometimes a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Beggs/Muller, or even just letting go of the controls can be a safer approach.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

IMHO it is far more important to teach recognition of and control at slow airspeeds than doing loads of spins, and learning to recognise and break the chain that could lead to a stall/spin (poor vis, distraction on a glide approach etc) because lets face it, it's not going to happen unless a lot of other things have already gone wrong. We encourage people to go for a spin in the aerobat with our aerobatic instructor as part of an aerobatic sequence, but they don't have to if they don't want to. Many students and instructors simply don't have the stomach for it.

As for the Tomahawk, well if you haven't spun one then I guess you'll never know! The problem there is often people do a half hearted recovery, which will work well enough in a 152, but the Tomahawk requires the recovery to be effected properly.

Sadly in my years in the industry, the only people I have known who have spun their way to kingdom come have been commercial pilots showing off with idiotic manouvres like a low pass and steep pull up, who should have known better. :(


slim-slag says:
"I've never spun one, never will (intentionally), but I hear the tail twists and turns quite spectacularly during the maneuver. Have you taken a look behind you, is it as hairy as they say?"

Ah yes the old tail wobbling story. It's an old wives tale. Next time you shut an aircraft down, listen to the airframe shudder. That's what happens in a spin, and not just to Tomahawks! As for certification, well read the POH.

[D 129]

As a related question ...

Just when did the (JAA) UK PPL stop requiring spin training ?. (Apparenty more people died from practicing rather than real accidents ... ).

When I was doing my PPL last year, I was shocked to find that it was no longer included. I've been gliding 20 years and although I'm not up to date with current teaching pratice, teaching spins was routine until a few years back. It was considered rather important because gross mishandling at the top of a winch launch coud see you spin in. Indeed, when undergoing instruction you would do a spin or two once every few flights to keep current - which took the fear out of it for new pilots.

By the way, "generally speaking" do light aircraft spin more aggressively than gliders ?. I'm thinking here of what a glider's long span might do ... rate of rotation ... (Most of the 2 seat gliders I flew were pretty docile - instructor holding it firmly in the spin before letting the student recover...).

I'll be doing my CPL soon - so will be reacquainted woith spinning soon ...

Thanks for any input ...

D 129

[slim_slag]

CFI

Ah yes the old tail wobbling story. It's an old wives tale. Next time you shut an aircraft down, listen to the airframe shudder. That's what happens in a spin, and not just to Tomahawks! As for certification, well read the POH.

Thanks. I admit, I've never flown a tomahawk, and I don't even know off the top of my head where I would go to find one! Round these parts it's hard to find something as underpowered as that on an FBO line, and I don't know anybody who owns one.

I've never heard the airframe shudder when I reduce power when I am spinning, but I use proper aerobatic certified planes. Do you mean buffet? I think that is different. Maybe I missed the shudder, I shall listen harder next time :) As for the tail twisting like I heard described, never seen that either, but I will look harder next time too :) I am happy to accept it is an old wives tale.

I think the problem with the POH is that the 'production version' of the tomahawk does not have the same airframe as the 'test version' where the original spin certification was granted. I think it was the Swedes who later put the plane through the FAA certification process, and it failed. The NTSB were so concerned that they requested the FAA certify the plane again. Not sure what happened next.

As I said, getting into a plane involves a risk/reward analysis (as does getting into the car to the airport). If the airframe is not certified for spinning, and there is uncertainty, then some would not spin it. If you want to do so, then I think you should. Insert smart ass comments about becoming a test pilot here :D

cheers

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

I'm not an expert on the history of the Tomahawk, but I understand that initial spin problems were in the prototype, which had a low tail and less wing strength. Anyone out there know the full story?

The POH is serial number specific as required by CASA . So it's unlikely that I have the wrong one. Ref section 4.43 "Spins" which is in the "normal procedures" section..

Having said all that I prefer my students to do their spinning in a C152 Aerobat so they can see some other upside downy type things at the same time, and hopefully enjoy the experience a bit more!

OK maybe the word "shudder" was a little unspecific, but that is the way I describe the movement of the airframe and the sound it makes when you shut a little aeroplane down.

[slim_slag]

CFI

Anyone out there know the full story?

A quick seach on the NTSB web site found this NTSB Letter (http://www.ntsb.gov/recs/letters/1997/a97_41_45.pdf) to the FAA.

OK maybe the word "shudder" was a little unspecific, but that is the way I describe the movement of the airframe and the sound it makes when you shut a little aeroplane down.

Shudder is a good word, I like it :D I just got back from putzing around in the aerobatics box with a Great Lakes. I could not get the airframe to make any strange noises/vibrations when shutting down power to idle, entering a spin or recovering. I turned around to watch the tail during the procedure - easy as it's an open cockpit biplane and you just stick your head out the side :) - and didn't see any nasty movements. Note to oneself: Hold expensive sunglasses on tight when back of head is pointing into wind, and make sure stomach is settled before spinning looking to rear :D

Having said all that I prefer my students to do their spinning in a C152 Aerobat so they can see some other upside downy type things at the same time, and hopefully enjoy the experience a bit more!

Indeed! It is so difficult to resist the temptation to go straight into an Immelmann or hammerhead when pulling out from a Spin. Cannot do that in a tomahawk, - or maybe some of you can :D :D

[Wing Root]

Slightly off topic perhaps but has anyone here done any spinning in the Diamond DA20-C1 Evolutions? I’m interested to know how they perform in the spinning department. :D

[African Drunk]

Where I used to instruct in SA we had 2 ppl's kill themselves + pax when they went spinning. I believe it gives some ppl's the idea to impress friends with a semi-aerobatic flight. In all my time flying I have never spun by accident nor seen a student come close. Most times when I have spun in C152+PA28 we had to attempt them more than once often without success. I firmly believe we should concentrate on stall/spin avoidance rather than showing them a new way to kill themselves.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

My sentiments exactly.
Had an incident a few years back when a cocky PPL decided to "impress" his 3 pax by deliberately putting a 172RG into a spin. They were lucky that time and lived to tell the tale (eventually). Quite apart from anything else, he was well beyond the W+B limits for utility catagory, and he put the wheels and flaps down for good measure. (the undercarriage had all sorts of probs after that)
When one of the pax finally confessed as to why he had been too terrified to continue his flying training, the CFI gave the pilot a well deserved bollocking.
His response was to argue with the CFI that he was only doing what his instructor had shown him. Monkey see, monkey do. All he could do to justify his actions was yell at the pax for "dobbing him in" He just didn't get it! I was all for barring him for life, but he had a nice little spot on the club committee so he was allowed to continue his suicidal flying. Funny that no-one ever wanted to be his passenger ever again.

Before an aeroplane goes into a spin it has to pass thorugh the folowing stages. Decreasing airspeed. Less effective controls. Abnormally high nose attitude. Stall warner. Out of balance. Wing drop. A pilot who can't recognise these warning signs and simply relax the back pressure to return to normal flight needs a better instructor.

[big pistons forever]

CFI

You are quite right in insisting that spin recognition shouldbe properly taught but I m not sure I agree with your progression to the stall/spin. A significant nose high attitude is not necessarilly required to stall ( eg a C150 at gross will stall in an almost level flight attitude with 40 deg flaps ) , not all aircraft have stall warning systems and the ones that do don't always work ( eg the old Piper elec system ). The progression can go pretty fast in the wrong circumstances. ( eg heavy load, high density altitude, unintentional uncoordination due to illusion created by drift etc ).
Also older types are generally more unforgiving of low speed mishandling than than C150/172/PA28's. I still think spin entry and recovery should be taught and I will continue to do so eventhough I don't have to. But as always it is proceeded by a complete examination of slow flight including the game of " try to make the ASI go to zero without stalling" a great exercise in high power low airspeed handling and aerodynamic stall recognition.

[Tonic Please]

When I was in Victoria BC, Canada doing my PPL training, my instructor showed me the spin during the slow flight, stalls, steep turns part of the course so it fitted in well. We were out in the practise area, and for those who know the CYYJ area, its the one over the Duncan airstrip.
Went upto 3,000, did the HASEL check (he did) and I just tried to literally record everything he said and did so i did not screw us both up if I forgot something.

He had full power, "clean" config...and this was a cessna 152 and certified for spins. It scared the livin daylights outta me, and I was suprised I needed to hold my neck muscles tight during the maneouver. Anyhow, we recovered, with the AH spinning uncontrollably. Partial panel you could say. So I had a go the second time, but by following through, so he did two you could say. Again, i remembered what he said and did, and we went over and down again.

Got to my go, and during the nose UP attitude, I for some reason looked left slightly which rolled the wings because of my right arm lifting up for some reason. This screwed the spin entry up, and he shouted he had control and recovered from almost vertical with 0 airspeed. :eek: Anyway, i eventually got the hang of it after doing about 2 on my own and felt very comfortable with it.

However, on a side note, I am very suprised that some FIs refuse to do it with students. I feel it should be down to the instructor to TEACH the student, and not have a "lets forget the spin i dont like doing them" attitude. If you found out they crashed (god help them)...then it would be YOU at fault for not showing them should they have got into a position to stall and spin.

Smooth skies to all

[40 yearflyer]

This spin thread has been going round and round for some time !
I hope my post does not bring this thread to a natural close. My record in that respect is not good!

Now the tomahawk sounds interesting. The twisting tail saga sounds vaguely familiar - I recall the Vampire T11 twisted it's tails and you could see them doing so in the rearview mirror. As the machine proved difficult to recover, either through old age or mishandling, many stories circulated about jettisoning the canopy as a certain cure for this particular problem.

The Chipmunk needed 'strakes' to cure something to do with the spin but the exact explanation has escaped me for the moment.

The Jet Provost was spun solo by students in the 60's until a few - perhaps 2 - mishandled the recovery and took the Martin Baker option.

The Jet Provost MK5 had an interesting VERY high speed rotation if you applied half rudder in the recovery. Nystagmus was something to see ! If that is the name for leaving your eyeballs several degrees behind the nose of the aircraft.

The Slingsby had a similiar very high rotation in the spin if you left power on after a spin off manoeuvre. It would stop pointing vertically down for a couple of seconds just to fool you then spin like nothing on earth about 6000 ft per minute rate of descent.

The 152 was a poor excuse for a spin.

The Zlin is ok but always 'lumpy' in recovery.

A 'story' - I went to Florida this girl told me, and the American who taught me spinning said I should learn to be able to recover with the aircraft 'pointing' in a certain direction because, and I quote, 'Ya never know when you might spin on 'finals' and ya would want to be pointing at the runway' ! !

Most pilots 'hate' spinning because it is the one manouevre where a control input actually does nothing for the first few seconds except to make things worst ! i.e. the spin speeds up - conservation of mass as per the ice skater - I believe.

Get checked out on you particular steed. If you don't understand B over A ratio the you shouldn't be spinning.

[bluskis]

If it wasn't for the blonde tresses wafting in the fresh air in my frontal vision from under and behind a leather flying helmet, ( my instructor was an older woman of about 25 years), I believe I might have chucked flying in on the spot.

The up and over, followed by the rotating of green and brown patchwork fields is still etched in my memory.

After several spinning exercises I actually began to enjoy it, and on moving to Cherokees many years later, made it a habit to go spinning several times a year.

Now with the realisation that if anything goes wrong an inextricable situation exists, I no longer indulge.

As current airplanes are usually not cleared for spinning, and are not as prone as the old timers to enter a spin, is there really a need to take the risks of spinning aircraft in the UK perhaps tens of times weekly?

The powers that be appear to have decided that flying training should target flying in a manner such as to avoid spinning, and accident statistics seem to confirm the correctness of that decision.

That is not to say spins do not form part of aerobatic flying, but aerobatic flying is not PPL flying, and not all instructors will necessarily feel comfortable with spinning, particularly in non aerobatic aircraft.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Bluskis:

You should not confuse aerobatic aircraft with aircraft approved for spins.

There is quite a large difference between the two types.

Aircraft approved for spins are by definition safe to spin.

Even if they are spinning in the UK. :D

Cat Driver:

[Croqueteer]

Do not under estimate the 150/152 spin with 20 flap. Years ago I was giving a PPL with a gung ho attitude to his flying a club check, and I talked him into a 20 flap spin, wich happens very suddenly, and he pulled the stick hard back and tried to stop the roll with aileron. Nedless to say, the 150 kept winding up until I took control. He said to me after that he thought he was dead, then noticed the grin starting to show on my face. The point is, because it was unexpected, he followed his natural instincts instead of getting the boot in. I have been out of instructing for a long time, but I do not think enough effort goes into showing advanced students the subtle traps, probably because a lot of new instructors don't know them themselves. Before any comments are made, I new the guy well enough to know he would not be upset by such an experience, and in fact, he thanked me. Have fun.

[big pistons forever]

Croquetier

All cessna's have a lower allowable positive load factor with flaps down. It is only 3.5 G on the C-150. Also the flaps will blank the tail, hence the exciting ride, so all in all your story does not in my opinion represent good flying practices.

[Croqueteer]

BPF Rubbish! I taught on 150s for over 1200hrs, and if you don't demo 20 flap stalls, you are failing your students, naturally you make sure the a/c is not oversrtessed. With a handle like yours, I thought you would have a more robust attitude to flying.

[big pistons forever]

Croquteer

I guess I was not clear. My point is your post talked about letting a student spin a C-150 with the flaps down. I stand by what I said. This is poor airmanship because an over agressive pull out could overstress the aircraft. Also the certification standards only required cessna to demonstrate safe spin caracteristic with the flaps up. That why the airplane is required to have a placard in full view of the pilot that lists the relavent limitations and specifically states quote Intentional spins with flaps extended are prohibited unquote. ( See the limitations section of the POH ).
Yes I do include a full demonstration of the stall in all configurations and attitudes but I will NEVER let a spin develop with the flaps down.

[Croqueteer]

BPF The chap was not a student but an over confident PPL. How many people have killed themselves losing control of a cessna in the landing configuration?

[nonradio]

As BPF says Intentional spins are prohibited in 152s but incipient aren't so I suspect Croqeteers point holds good if it didn't 'wind up' too much . The fear Cessna Inc has is for excess airspeed during recovery or even entry given their rather benign (spinning) characteristics. The sometimes rapid departure with flap down is well known and should be part of flying training on type. Especially for gung ho chaps

[Croqueteer]

BPF Point taken, I was probably a bit flippant with my post, but if a 20flap stall in a climbing turn, which was what I was doing turns into a spin , that is not intentional spinning, although I admit I had a fair idea what was to happen. I was always careful not to exceed the flap limiting speed, and as I remember I would be running the flap up as soon as recovery began. However, the whole point of the post was to warn that Cessnas are not always pussy-cats, THEY CAN AND DO BITE!

[Capt Homesick]

I've spun a PA38- after I'd done the required spins for my BCPL (showing my age there), I did some more so I could look back at the tail. :D As far as I can tell, that particular horror story is a myth...
Croqueteer makes a very good point about the C152's ability to bite. I never spin with flaps down, but here is a good instructional exercise in the 152:
Set up the aircraft in approach configuration- 1500 RPM, 20 degrees flap. Set the aircraft in a turn using no more than 20 degress bank. Use just enough back pressure to maintain altitude.
What happens next varies with individual aircraft. With most, a turn in one direction leads to the aircraft stalling out of the turn, sometimes to wings level, sometimes to a banked attitude in the other direction. Turn in the other direction, carry out the same experiment, (keep the aircraft balanced, it makes surprisingly little difference), and the result will be a rapid flick into the turn, leaving the aircraft inverted.
Apologies if I'm teaching the other Cessna "vets" to suck eggs here, but if you haven't seen this, practice it with another instructor until you're happy with it, then add it to the later stalling lessons. With good briefing, it teaches the student to respect the low-speed environment. It's also tremendous fun to demonstrate! :)

[hugh flung_dung]

I don't understand the concern about deliberate spinning in an aircraft that's appropriately cleared - the aircraft has been cleared to spin and recover safely. It's a situation that a pilot can encounter and they should be shown it (and how to recover) during training - obviously the entry level should be sensible and parachutes should be worn if physically possible.
The "only teach avoidance" view really doesn't work because a pilot who had never experienced a spin would be very unlikely to recover if they ever encountered one - besides, you need to show the stude what they are avoiding.
If an instructor is not willing to spin they aren't master of the job and should receive more training.

[Michael Whitton]

I CANT BELEIVE YOU GUYS SPIN THE TOMAHAWK!!!!

you guys are crazy. Over here most of them have had spin approval removed for years and your not even aloud to conduct developed incipient spins due to a tail detachemtn problem :p

next time you take one of them up have a geez at the tail as it enters the drop.... .kinda moves around to much for my liking :D

[Mr. TCU]

If the tail of a Tomahawk has structural integrity problems in spins, then why would you even want to fly it? Granted you can do your best to avoid entering a spin, but what if one should inadvertantly occur? Wouldn't it be nice to know that the aircraft won't fall to pieces, leaving you able to perform the recovery?

Perhaps there are just aircraft out there that can't be spun or else they will fall apart. Am I right or do all aircraft have to demonstrate a recovery?

[big pistons forever]

All single engine aircraft certified in the normal catagory and not approved for spins must never the less demonstrate that a safe recovery can be made from a one turn spin. After one turn you are on your own. A good example is my own personal airplane , a Grumman American AA1B. It will recover after one turn I am told but numerous accidents have conclusively demonstrated if held in a spin past one turn, it will go into a unrecoverable flat spin mode. With respect to the PA38 Traumahawk , I flew the first one imported into Canada in 1978. It was a low serial number machine
with no mods. The spin characteristics were pretty frightning and shortly thereafter the wing was modified with stall strips which helped alot. I think the main propblem with this airplane was its very poor build quality. Most of the AD's address structural problems caused by trying to save money on the production line.

[Saxon]

Big Pistons Forever is absolutly right, in Canada spining has been dropped from the PPL course, but it remains a 'flight test item' for the CPL.

Personaly I enjoy spinning and think it is an essensial tool for building good hands and feet skills, as well as confidence.....but only if done safely.

Having said that, I have only practiced spinning in a C172 which is extreamly docile in this area compared with other machines. I once had the oppertunity to fly some 'areos' in an Extra 300, talk about spinning.........!!! Deffinately a case of 'don't try this at home kids'. No, I wasn't on my own; and yes, the back seat had an extreamy proficient and well experienced aerobatic pilot sat in it. I didn't think the world could wizz around that fast...what a ride !!!

[pilotbear]

Whilst I accept the part about the PA 38 tail flexing on recovery sometimes, the main problem with the Tomahawk is its tendency to Flat Spin if the C of G is not far enough forward.
If you do spin it, (and I personally think that spin recovery should be fully taught), then watch for the nose pitching up towards the horizon during the spin.
There are several fatal examples of this in the U.S. and there are not a lot of instructors out there who will spin one intentionally.
If it happens, you can (if you are lucky and have the height!!), loosen your shoulder straps and pull yourselves towards the panel to move the C of G forward. This might sound drastic but I know this from experience, I was a pupil not an instructor then. I also know this has happened to others.

The tomahawk that we know now is not the same A/C as was tested by the FAA. It has four less wing spars and the tail construction is different.

Other than that it is a nice aeroplane to learn to fly in as you have to fly it. Cessnas fly themselves.
:)

[FridayNightPalma]

Many years ago at a flight instructors renewal (when I instructed) the subject of alternative spin recovery came up. I remember the examiner explian recovery could be achieved with ''in to spin aileron'', which would increase the stall of the upgoing wing with increased AOA and cause it to drop and visaversa the result being an end of autorotation.

This was so long ago I can't remember the type but seem to remember it worked during the airex.

Has anyone ever come across this technique or did I dream it?

[djpil]

I hate to make too many general comments on spinning. The use of inspin aileron is often antispin ie aids recovery. Not true of all types though.

Inspin aileron is part of the recommended procedure for spin recovery of the CT-4 for example. The spin recovery placard on some Pitts models includes the use of inspin aileron for recovery if required.

There's some more information here.
Spinning Notes (http://www.ozaeros.com/spin/beard.htm)

[bcpilot]

Spinning for the purpose of "saving lives" is ridiculous!! Consider:
a) A large percentage of spin accidents are caused by practicing spins

b) In normal flight operations, inadvertantly entering a spin is highly unlikely

c) Most inadvertant spins occur when an aircraft is low turning base to final on a forced approach, due to ground shyness (the tendency for a nervous pilot to underbank and attempt to turn using excess bottom rudder). This means they are probably trying to conserve altitude to get past an obstacle. An entry into a spin under these conditions will almost certainly result in an accident even if proper recovery actions are taken.

Therefore, practicing spins does not prevent stall/spin accidents.


Having said that, I'd like to say that I believe in teaching spins as a confidence builder as well as a coordination exercise. In fact, I believe a few hours of aerobatics is good for every private pilot, as they should know the capabilities of their machine. If a student learns to "be scared" of a spin, but they have never seen one, they will not be as confident with stick and rudder.

[slim_slag]

bcpilot is pretty much on the mark. A "few hours" is getting correct, the half a dozen spins you need to get in your logbook to instruct is pretty worthless. Quite often the second time the instructor spins is when he is signing off his first instructor student :eek:. So we have somebody who doesn't know how to spin teaching the maneuver to somebody who has never spinned. Recipe for disaster, treat spinning with respect, especially when you are an instructor with passengers.

[bcpilot]

slim_slag: That's not so in Canada. Personally, as soon as I was allowed in the practice area solo, i was spin-spin-spinning my ass off!! It's the most fun a private pilot can have in a non-aerobatic plane. Nothing makes your friends puke like three or four spins followed by a coupla zero g's and an uncoordinated steep turn.

Most young student pilots I know are the same. Once they find out they're allowed to go out and practice spins, that's all they do for a while. They're fun, and most students don't realize that they might be dangerous. They figure if they were that dangerous, the school wouldn't be teaching them at such an elementary level.

[oceanicclarence]

My flying instructor taught me spin recovery in a PA 38, and my god was it scary ! power off, control column gradually back left rudder and WHAM !! jeeeeeezus ! it went kinda inverted and just tore into a spin ! so very quick so very scary, if that happened to an unwitting PPL solo then im sorry i dont care what anyone says , they would be finished, end of story. i learnt a lot of respect for what a training aircraft can do after that, the the word here is RESPECT. i then got my instructor to show me how to recover, properly and from most attitudes and entries, this is such an important part of training, if an aircraft can spin then recovery should be taught, because all good pilots should have an escape plan if things go pear shaped !

keep it up guys, your job is undervalued.

[slim_slag]

Well bcpilot, it goes to show why 'crazy canuck' slips off the tongue so easily :)

Plenty of flying schools nowadays don't have a plane that is truly spin certified, or they are placarded against spinning. Flight Instructors are scared ****less about them. Low flying appears to be how the guys get their kicks round here. Not uncommon for planes to come back with bits of tree hanging off them.:eek:

[bcpilot]

That's funny about the low flying. I overheard a CPL student the other day saying what a thrill it is to spin over the city at night with a <1000 foot recovery. Not exacly my bag, but maybe I'm a stick in the mud.

[TRF4EVR]

Big Pistons and bear are quite correct regarding the reason for the spate of traumahawk crashes. The build quality was so low, and the wing so flexible (due to the missing ribs) that in some instances the wing would flex into a "not-exactly-NACA" shape during the spin and become unrecoverable (or this is the theory, anyhow).

I recall reading a few years ago a testimonial by a Piper production test pilot that essentially said "You never knew, depending on the airplane. One would be docile, the next treacherous."

They say that the stall strips prevented this by forcing a stall earlier. How this prevents the wing flexing problem is beyond me and I don't spin the beasts.

Oh. And the tail certainly does wag in a most alarming fashion if you stall it.

Having said all of that, its a lovely airplane for x-c work, or if you happen to be Large Sized. And in my humble opinion, teaches a bit more respect for the airplane than Brand C.

[shortstripper]

D129

It doesn't look like anyone has answered your question?

I'm not sure when spin training for PPL stopped in the UK but it was before I started my PPL in 1990. I think it was more to do with the fact that many schools had aircraft that were not cleared for spin training; this obviously made it difficult for them to operate without having something that could.

I started gliding in the mid 80's and everybody had to do spin training before solo (at my club anyway) I didn't know that had changed, but if it has it's probably for the same reason as above. I know some of the modern glass gliders are very difficult to spin and need ballast on the tail in order to do so. Gliders are very benign in the spin compared to powered aircraft. Rotation rates are slow and recovery almost instantanious. I remember watching the national coach of the time putting perspective CFI's through their paces at North Hill once. He was putting them into spins and having them recover not above 1000' ... there were a few ashen faces that day!

Talking of PA38 tails ... look at a gliders wings when pulling hard, or an airliners wing tips going up and down. It's things that don't flex when they should that you must worry about. Wood and fabric or tube and fabric aircraft don't "shudder" or "drum" like ally ones ... but they still flex. Also, although PA38's have changed, I think if they have four spars less than before then they must be left with no spars? ... now there's an interesting idea :p

SS

SS

[hugh flung_dung]

shortstripper: I agree there's a difference in attitude between gliding instruction and power instruction when it comes to spinning. During my time at splasham we used to regularly spin the more experienced studes in the circuit (and see how many loops, etc we could manage from the last winch launch:D) but wouldn't dream of carrying that into GA. The handling characteristics are very different, the operating regimes are different and the attitudes of the individuals are very different. Recently someone needed a spin/aeros check in a Bulldog so we put parachutes on and went to 8-9000ft, this allowed me to let them use nearly full out-spin aileron during the supposed recovery before advising them of the error of their ways. If we'd been lower I may have been a little more concerned about their actions:eek:

Aeroplanes are capable of spinning, spin entry and recovery should therefore be taught as part of the course; but it must be taught in a safe, realistic and structured way. Not by nervous AFI (sorry, FI(R)) pulling hard back with full rudder, causing a half flick roll entry, and then recovering after a turn or so. It should be taught from a sideslip ('surprising how fast that high wing can drop) or from an over-ruddered turn or from a slow gliding steep turn ... things which a stude could conceivably do.
Who in their right mind is daft enough to approach the stall, pull full aft stick and push full rudder?
Answer: a non-aero FI demonstrating a supposed "accidental" spin entry.

Spinning should be taught, instructors should be comfortable in any attitude (and beer should be free and ...).

HFD

[LocoDriver]

Hello from a New Zealand instructor. I am happy to spin a Cessna 152, great little beast, a 172 is harder to get in to a spin.
I wont spin a 150 horse 150 (150/150) , and NO WAY A PA38!

The 150/150 has a C of G change that makes it a little, shall we say, hard to recover, and I have had problems with recovery with a 152tailwheel conversion.

Instructors here must do a 1 hr spinning lesson b4 they get an
instructor rating, but not many get an endorsement to teach spinning. It is safe when do correctly(even fun) with a well maintained C152 Aerobat.

[rottenlungs]

interesting thread.

I started flying on a Tomahawk with an instructor who was unwilling to spin it. To be honest, with 10 hours to my name it would have really scared the crap out of me so I was happy with his decision.

Just 2 weeks ago (now 35 hours) I was shown my first spin in a 152. The instructor used the entry technique described by Hugh_Flung_dung, i.e a little bit above stall speed pull back hard and a bootful of rudder. We recovered after about 1.5 - 2 turns (apparently - I was clutching the dash throughout!). We started the maneouvre at 3000ft qnh and recovered at about 2200 ft.

As a lowly student you just (largely) accept your FI`s advice, unless you have a specific reason to question it. If my instructor in the Tomy had said, "i`m gonna show you a spin" I would have said "OK".

Cheers

Rottenlungs

[G-KEST]

From 1972 to 1999 I was a CAA appointed FIE and thoroughly enjoyed testing aspiring new instructors as well as renewing the ratings of existing instructors, some with longer at it than I had. From time to time I encountered the odd individual who was quite clearly afraid of spinning, at times to an almost paranoic extent. I did find that discussion and demonstration usually overcame the problem.
On one occasion, as an FIC instructor operating Cessna 150's, I had a student who was an ex-RAF truckie with zillions of hours on C130's and who had always been afraid of spinning. He could fly a demo spin or he could patter it but not both at the same time due to the, for him, terrifying view outside the windscreen. I got him over this hurdle by getting him to enter, spin and recover with his eyes firmly closed while he pattered the demonstration successfully. After four faultless demos he realised that it was a piece of **** so he opened his eyes and had absolutely no further problems.
I fear we now have a generation of instructors who learned to fly without doing any spinning and who have never developed any real confidence in their ability to operate their aeroplane right up to and beyond the edge of the envelope. I do accept that some have but there are many who have not.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
:sad:

[Send Clowns]

Rotten

Your instructor is nuts. Never go into a spin at 3000 feet. That is too low over the ground, let alone amsl. Military teach 3000' agl as a minimum height by which to recover (jettisoning the aircraft if this is not achieved). Seems a good plan to me. Add an appropriate amount for the recovery (depends on aircraft) and some for the turns (depends on a/c and number of turns). Sounds like a minimum 1000 feet for what you did. I tend to use 5000' amsl (QNH or RPS) as an entry altitude, over ground at less than 300' or the coast (never over open sea or any other monochromatic surface!).

Notice that your instructor's requirements are to plan to recover from a stall by 2000' agl, and teach you to recover by 3000' agl. To be recovering from a spin at around this level is extremely dangerous.

[Irish Steve]

For what it's worth, I did my PPL in the UK in the early 80's, and that was about the time spinning became optional, as there were too many aircraft about that were not certified. We did a couple, and my ( now more vague) memories were of a not altogether pleasant experience, as we were in Rallye 110, which apparently was a pig to get into the spin, and fell out again most times with no inputs at all. All I can remember of the demonstration, and I wasn't expected to fly them, was that it was vey disorienting indeed.

The comments about spin awareness are very relevant, and if its taught properly initially, subsequent instructors or examiners will have problems getting the candidate to demonstate a "full" stall, as there is every chance that recovery action will be taken too soon.

The comments about what the aircraft can or can not do, especially in the hands of the inexperienced pilot, is very relevant, only a few days after I got my PPL, and the day I was taking the family up, another pilot killed himself and 3 others in a Rallye, it hit the ground very hard, and there was more than a suspicion at the time that one of the wings was not attached at that time.

Certainly I know from subsequent experience, the handling and performance of many aircraft, even light twins, is VERY different 2 up to (say) 4 or 6 up. I was lucky, when I did my twin rating, the instructor insisted on doing one trip with a full load mix of pax & fuel, and it was for sure an eyeopener.

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that the best way forward is to make VERY sure that the student is completely aware and responding very positively to stall spin awareness, in configurations that represent the manner in which they are likely to operate the aircraft once training is complete, even if that means a bit more time is spent on the exercise. That way, there's a better chance that if something unforseen happens, they are at least better prepared.

[rottenlungs]

Hi Send Clowns

Sorry for my slow reply. Its really interesting that you say that about my instructor. As a learner we hear and read all kinds of different recommendations. From what I`d read, I would have anticipated beginning a spin at more like 5000', rather than 3k.

When I first started learning (at a different club), I was introduced to steep turns at 3000' and that particular FI said that 3000 was the standard height for practising these things. At my current club we were doing steep and max rate turns at 1500'. Is this also a bit low?

One one occasion, whilst practising PFL`s this same instructor put the 152 into a max rate turn (stall horn chirping) at about 600'. I have to say it unnerved me a bit, but put that down to my inexperience of load factor and g-forces rather than because it was an inappropriate maneouvre. Am I right in thinking that if the a/c did stall in a steep turn we would execute some kind of flick roll into the dirt quite rapidly ?

I`d be really grateful for some advice on this. I have expressed surprise to my FI about the height for doing steep turns and he said "No, no no, 1500 is heaps. After all, as a CPL I have to do max rate turns with +/- 50 ft tolerance". That said, I`m up doing them by myself this weekend and might go up to at least 2000 to give myself a bit more room to balls it up.

Should I raise this issue with the CFI / one of the senior instructors? As a newbie its hard to know whats right. Also, I`m learning in NZ, does anyone know of a NZCAA approved training syllabus (i.e specific criteria for things like spins + steep turns) which I can access online?

Thanks again.

Rottenlungs

[Amabokoboko]

Interesting thread. I must admit (from my perspective as a PPL student) that it seems crazy to put yourself unnecessarily into a position that could kill you, but I do understand the need to have at least experienced spins and recovery.

My problem is as follows: I fly out of Jo'burg (5500ft asl) and so it is highly unlikely that you can get most training a/c above 3000ft agl to spin safely. We were spinning a C152 at about 2500ft agl.

If you can't get above a safe height, should high altitude schools still practice spinning?

[Oktas8]

One one occasion, whilst practising PFL`s this same instructor put the 152 into a max rate turn (stall horn chirping) at about 600'. ... Am I right in thinking that if the a/c did stall in a steep turn we would execute some kind of flick roll into the dirt quite rapidly ?

Rottenlungs - short answer is no. Most aircraft will recover almost instantaneously from the situation you describe, providing the controls are neutralised very quickly after the aircraft stalls.

The problem comes if the aircraft had stalled, and the instructor had been slow to relax back pressure. The 152 may have rolled all the way inverted, in which case recovery from 600' with the throttle closed would have been entertaining... :E

On the plus side, a light aircraft is less likely to 'flick roll' with the throttle closed, as it would have been the case in a PFL. On the other hand, if the instructor had flap down the aircraft is more likely to drop a wing at the stall.

Aircraft with "special" or "restricted" airworthiness certificates may not be so docile. They have different certification rules.

The NZ CAA syllabus for flying training may be found at the CAA's web site (http://www.caa.govt.nz). Try http://www.caa.govt.nz/rules/ACs.htm for specific guidelines for PPL and CPL training (AC61 is the one you're after).

Enjoy your training!
O8

[rottenlungs]

Hi Oktas8.

Thanks for the info. I`m still pretty careful about the sort of attitudes and loads that the aircraft can take so I still have visions of terrible things happening when the manoeuvres are anything but sedate!

Thanks for the link to the rules on the NZAA site too.

Cheers

Rottenlungs

[Send Clowns]

Rottenlungs

Great to see that you have so much more respect for the hazards of aviation than your instructor. Your attitude seems to be about right.

Oktas is right in that the aircraft should be recoverable from this height, but there are other hazards, such as spiral descent and low-flying fast movers (OK, not in NZ, but if you fly in the UK!). There is no need to endanger the aircraft and tight turns at low level should not be tried unless you have been well trained in extreme attitudes, preferably some aerobatic training. If your instructor has had this (I doubt it if he spins below 3000' agl) then he is safe, but should have warned you against copying. Good to see you did not need the warning.

2000 feet should be adequate for steep turns, as long as you watch carefully for overbanking or letting the nose come down which can lead to spiral descent. Any hint and ease off the bank to recover the nose attitude before re-coordinating the bank. However get 3000 if you can, I don't like to encourage fixed-wing pilots to be scudding around in the dirt. Leave that to egg-whisk jockeys. 1500 is certainly getting a bit low for a solo student manoeuvring tightly.

It seems that there was a better attitude to safety prevailing at your previous club, and if convenient I would suggest you consider returning. Otherwise just remember to keep yourself safe, and if in doubt ask an instructor you trust or ask here!

[ML Handler]

I spin a firefly regularly. Min entry height is TA + height of ground + 1000' safe margin + 120' per number of expected spins. Me and my students both have parachutes with fuel within 3 gallons either side, safe as houses, but would not consider doing it under any other circumstances.

[Chimbu chuckles]

I used to, as a young G3, love spinning and teaching spinning. I have spun, among others, the 150/152 and Traumahawk many, MANY times...albeit approaching 20 years ago.

Then one day a 150 refused to recover...we finally did recover and regained level flight under 500 agl. I tried everything and finally pushed the control column so far forward so fast (in the process probably leaning forward) that we went past the verticle and I half rolled before pulling out of the dive.

Anybody who suggests the tail of Traumahawks doesn't waggle and twist alarmingly when in a stall hasn't looked backwards when doing so. After about 3 turns the Traumahawke spin also flattens out significantly and the rate of yaw speeds up apprecably (with the nose going way down again) after recovery actions are taken. I used to think that was so cool...probably the frustrated Test Pilot in me :E

I still think they should be taught/students should be exposed to them however I think the same about basic aerobatics.

I believe more value could be had however by more time spent exploring the low speed handling characteristics of various aircraft. I was blessed with flying with mostly experienced instructors in my ab inition period...caused by the lack of movement in the industry 25 years ago in Oz. We used to do all sorts of fun things like seeing how slow we could fly level and not stall, climbing and decending orbits using only the trim and doors :}

We even used to do simulated turn back from EFATO and, in the 152, got very good at it..sometimes losing only 150'.

My point is we spent a lot of time manouvering with the stall warning just chirping, had a lot of fun and learnt a heap about where the aeroplane would bite...it saved my bacon more than once a few years later flying heavily loaded aircraft in the bush in PNG.

Perhaps there are not enough Instructors out there these days who are comfortable enough with aircraft to do this...and perhaps they are not interested enough to do this...just marking time before the big shiny jet interview...but you can easily find guys who do teach this stuff in most places...in Pitts/Decathlon etc...and I'm sure they would get in a Piper/Cessna and expose you to the places in the envelope that hurt.

Chuck.

[Angel´s One Fife]

G-SPOTs Lost

"Most interesting spin ever encountered was in an ex BAE Prestwick AS202 Bravo, used to increase rotation rate and do two more turns after the appropiate recovery action had been taken."

you need to know about your A over B ratios.
The Bravos that were at the Flying College were perfect for spinning from what I know and did exactly what should happen when recovery action is initiated.

If you are teaching spining but not including in your demo the main point that the spin gets faster once you have initiated recovery action then you have been leaving out the main point of the exercise. The spin will increase in rotation rate and you need to hold the recovery through this phase even though the increased rotation can fool you into thinking you have made the wrong input. It is this increased rotation that fools some folks into stopping the recovery action and trying to recover now using opposite control inputs and utimately spinning untill they hit the deck. And I bet that smarts a bit although usually most folks don't live to tell the tale.

[Send Clowns]

Chimbu - did you have imbalanced fuel when you had trouble recovering from the Cessna spin? I have heard of that happening, and have been concerned that civvies don't seem to check this in the pre-spin HASELLs like I was taught in military EFT. We always checked that the fuel loads in the two wings matched within 3 gallons.

[LocoDriver]

A most interesting discussion regarding spinning, etc etc.

I have been spinning on a regular basis for thirty odd years,
(cessna150/152, sometimes 172) and always commence at 4,000AGL, recover by 3,000.
I would NEVER allow a student to use anything lower, as for an instructor doing a max rate turn at 600ft, he must be an accident waiting to happen, not to mention setting a very bad example for his student.
I recently was training a commercial student, and in a max rate turn he lost it, and we spun(172). I did not touch the controls as I wanted to see what he did, which was to lose over 1,000 feet!
Quite an exciting ride.

I believe as instructors we have to set an example, which is why I insist using 3,000ft AGL for all steep/max rate exercises, and higher for spinning.

[Send Clowns]

After a discussion with my Head of Training I have come across another potential C-152 spin problem. Apparently with two very tall occupants (i.e. seats right back) and at certain fuel states, although the calculations will show that the aircraft is in the C of G limits to spin the spin can flatten considerably due to aft C of G, and be very difficult to recover. I will now always be very careful that C of G is well forward of the aft limit before spinning a 152 again.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Send Clowns...two very interesting theories...I have never heard about fuel imbalance being an issue until your post. Particularly as the spin in question occurred at the tail end of a 'Precautionary Search & Landing' lesson....so many years later there's no way to remember the fuel load but it would seem highly likely that it was reasonably balanced as the C150/152 series fuel systems have a 'both' selection...I'm 6'2" and the student was not short...both being VERY young at the time we were also as skinny as rakes...unlike now in my case at least:sad:

I never got a definative answer on why that aircraft failed to respond...one theory was it had been 'built up' from two aircraft wrecked in a cyclone in Queensland' and may not have been rigged true. More likely to have been a combination of small things that all summed up on the day.

Actually as it was a fairly old C150 can anybody actually confirm that they, like the later model 152s actually did have a both setting for the fuel tanks...I'm trusting to nearly 20 year old memory.

[BeechNut]

Concerning that C150 that wouldn't recover. A Canadian instructor was killed under similar circumstances, teaching spins to a student in a C152. The result was an AD on the tail. The aircraft spun into a lake and the instructor was killed but the student survived. See below. I currently own and fly a Beech C23 (Sundowner 180) fitted with the aerobatic kit so it's cleared for spinning. It's got an uncoventional entry: at stall, full rudder into the direction of the spin and full and immediate opposite aileron. The aircraft then goes slightly inverted before spinning. Anything else degrades into a very rapid and steep spiral dive with very rapid and dangerous speed buildup. Very entertaining to say the least.

Here is the summary of the report on the C152 accident which can be read at:

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/1998/a98q0114/a98q0114. (http://)

1. During a practice spin exercise, the rudder locked in a full left deflection, which could not be overcome by the crew.


2. The aircraft was released for flight with a rudder bar return spring missing, which, in combination with other factors, probably allowed the rudder to lock in a full left deflection.


3. Tests conducted on an aircraft similar to the accident aircraft showed that the design and condition of the stop bolt and rudder horn stop plate allowed the stop plate to over-travel the stop bolt and jam.


4. Because the direction of cable pull tends to close the mouth of the horn, increasing the jamming effect, applying right rudder force would only have tightened the jam rather than broken it.


Mike

[rottenlungs]

Hi All

Thanks everyone for all the input re safe heights when training.

Send Clowns. That is interesting about the c. of g. with the seats all the way back in the 152. I`m 6'3" and my instructor is probably 6', therefore we do invariably have both seats back. Next time I have the POH in front of my I`ll try and do some calcs and see where the c. of g. is on the a/c we were in.

Also, given your concerns about the low alt max rate turn I might just have a word to the CFI and see what he thinks of it. However, I don`t really want to drop my instructor in the brown stuff as he is very good in other ways..

Thanks again

Rottenlungs

[Scottzilla90]

As an instructor I have found the spin training I recieved from my instructors, during my CPL trng and for instructor rating to be extremely valuable skills that I hoped I wouldn't have to use for real.

Shortly after having started instructing I was doing a session of circuits with a foreign student who struggled a little with english (all though his english was better than my arabic). There were approximately 15-16 light aircraft in two opposite direction circuits for parallel runways.

I was struggling to try and find a way to get my student to better understand what i wanted him to do when in no time at all we drifted accross final into the parallel circuit. A few seconds (4-5)later i noticed what had happened and without too much forethought I told my student to make an immediate turn towards our runway to avoid a collision.

He must have picked up on some stress in my voice and proceded to make a 60 degree AoB turn with full flap and idle power, before i realised that he wasn't going to add power we dropped into a spin, inverted at 500 agl.

Thankfully I went into automatic spin recovery mode and recovered to a climb, it did not occur to me just how close I came to making an unscheduled contract with terrain until a minute or two later (especially since I was flying an aircraft in which spins are prohibited).

In my oppinion Full Spin Training should be mandatory by PPL/CPL level, if not at least Incipient spin recovery training should be mandatory before PPL. I certainly intend to teach it as soon as I can find someone to certify me.

[Bucket]

43 Air School in SA not only teach spinning as part of the PPL course but also mandate solo time for the students to practice; anyboby else doing this.

I love spinning myself..

[Send Clowns]

Student solo spinning sounds like asking for trouble to me. I see no requirement for it, and a spin is still not an entirely safe manoeuvre for the inexperienced, even if correctly taught. Again referring to UK military flying training, although the course involved the student practicing the spin many times, intentional spinnning was the only part of the VFR flying that was taught (or taught officially - there were some unauthorised aerobatic manoeuvres flown that I would not have dared solo!) but never practised solo.

[QNIM]

Gday

I must admit haven't digested most of the posts but if I may suggest if you teach and won't teach spinning find another vocation as you are not doing your students justice only sending them out to find out the hard way DEAD

Cheers Q

[the wizard of auz]

Strewth, Qnim, I knew if I kept hanging about these hallowed halls, we would agree on sumint. :E
Cheers, Wiz. :ok:

[eagerbeaver]

what if the flying school you work for does not have any aircraft to spin in?
What am i supposed to do? Also when a student is flying a Pa28 or a C172 etc, what are the realistic chances that they could get the aircraft near the point it would be about to spin. A Pa28 does not spin easily - if at all but i could not say. The cessnas need to be forced into a spin and recover themselves if you just release the controls - surely if you wish to teach spinning then it must be done on an arcraft which has good spin characteristics eg something aerobatic (cap10 perhaps) otherwise imo it is a complete waste of time and does nothing more than build anxiety in the student and they will probably miss the whole point of the lesson becasue they are too terrified on what is going on.

[lady in red]

Some years ago I experienced a C150 which was unrecoverable in the spin using Standard Spin Recovery technique. In the end I used in-spin aileron and recoverd at 1100 feet having been well over 4300 when I entered the spin. I was training an Instructor for aerobatics using his club's aircraft. The aircraft was subsequently grounded following my report to the CAA and it transpired that it was badly rigged and had been so for a loong time, despite being certified by the engineers as airworthy. A potential killer due to the fact that it is easy to be complacent about Cessnas as the myth states they recover so easily. One can easily be lulled into a false sense of security by assuming that the maintenance docs must be correct if you are flying an FTO's aircraft. I learnt a lot from this episode and would counsel against ever commencing a spin below 4000 feet, despite the fact that our H o T regularly does spins in C152s below 2400 during instrucotr tests - would not get me doing it though...

[Send Clowns]

Which school is that, Lady? I ask because spinning at 2400' really is dangerous. This should be taken further, especially as it is the head of training.

Beaver - have you never taken a PA-28 into a proper steep turn, i.e. over 60 degrees? It is not difficult to spin if you overcook the turn, and if this aircraft is all that is available (it is at one of the clubs I fly for) then teach recovery from incipient. I have had a student send us incipient in an aircraft not cleared for intentional spins from over-enthusiastic response to wing drop at the stall. It is also easy to spin from a glide if you let the speed bleed off stretching the approach. In one study I read "Stall and spin" was found to be the final cause of over 30% of fatal accidents! Most were perfectly survivable power losses.

I know very students who are really scared of spinning, and most of those are a lot happier once they have actually done some. They often get the fear from those that have never been taught or not taught thoroughly. They often pick up fear from people who themselves are scared, or who talk about spins without the required reassurance.

[TD&H]

Once did a spin in the glider whilst doing a test flight, with a Phantom pilot as ballast. Only looking to do an incipient, the type are very reluctant to spin, had only ever got a spiral dive before. However we were both lightweight and the cg was just right, I yelled 'yippee a spin'. the Phantom jockey just went quiet. He later said if they departed below 10,000' (I think that was the figure he said) their rules were to punch out, we were below 1000'!:E

[Send Clowns]

I understand gliders are a little different! Well done for making an F4 pilot blanch. Always a good trick if you can manage it :E

[Stephen Stark]

Spinning certainly does teach an invaluable lesson about accuracy and confidence to a student, and boosts morale in the cockpit. Is it a good exercise? Absolutely.

Bucket, I'm surprised to see your comment. How long ago were you at 43rd? I heard a rumour that a few years ago they lost a PA28-180 in spinning training, hence the type is no longer certified for spinning in South Africa..

[NorthSouth]

Bucket43 Air School in SA not only teach spinning as part of the PPL course but also mandate solo time for the students to practice; anyboby else doing thisEveryone in SA HAS to do it because it's a mandatory part of the syllabus - dual AND solo. I did it when I did my SA PPL and although the rumour was that lots of people just cruised around the GFA on their solo spinning detail, I did two, and I think succeeded in convincing myself that (a) the aircraft would recover if you did what you were trained to do and (b) I could recover from a spin. It's difficult to fit spinning into a UK PPL course because (a) you have to have the right aircraft and (b) you have to have the right student. On the latter, I reckon most instructors would choose to offer a demo of spin recovery to students who are at the more competent end of the ability scale. But it's actually the less able students who should be getting the training, not the whizz kids.

NS

[Teddy Robinson]

I have always spun students at an appropriate point in their training, as a demonstration excercise only.

Whilst most modern aircraft are benign under normal circumstances, I feel that there is real educational value in teaching that if you abuse an aircraft it WILL bite, and steps should be taken to avoid the situation arising in the first place.

My favoured tool for the job (like WWW) is the pa38 which despite its unjustified reputation, demonstrates inadvertant spin entry perfectly, and predictably.

[Avgas172]

My one and only experience in a Tomahawk (training solo for incipent spin) resulted in an inverted spin at 4000 over the sea near Cairns in FNQ (Aus). I might mention it was totally unintended and resulted in the loss of about 1500ft, and I had the grand total of (about) 20 hours tt
at the time. The only thing that saved my bum was the words of my FI ( bless him) if in doubt let the wheel go take your feet off the pedals and see what happens ....what happened was a spiral dive which was fairly easy to correct. When I was inverted I didnt have a clue which way was up as I had a panaroma of blue above and below.

[Farknel]

1. Although many non-aerobatic are rated for spinning, I prefer to spin only in aerobatic aircraft.

2. Don't skimp on the altitude - as high as practical is always comforting.

3. It is not a manoeuvre to be taught for one lesson only - any student undergoing training needs to be comfortable and competent in all phases of the spin. Keep doing it until you (the instructor) are completely happy with Blogg's skill.

4. Having instructed in a quasi-military environment (BAe, Aus) I prefer the Military Attitude to spinning - Pick reference points, set a well defined standard (e.g. recover after 'x' turns on a particular reference point), pre and post spin checks and etc.

Fark!

[Rosanna]

In our FTO we always demonstrate spins to our studens before first solo flight according to JAA flight syllabus for PPL.
If meteorological conditions and the student is all right I do spins mission after stalls mission although for JARs spins are before stalls.
We usually use for that demontration a C152 aerobat.

Ciao!!!

Rosanna

[c_jephcott]

When I did my PPL, going back a few years now, spinning was demonstrated to me on more than a few occasions. I think that spinning should be continue to be taught just in the case of the student pilot ever committing a gross mishandling error - eg - the old fashioned, leaving it late to turn onto finals, with 20' flap and airspeed below 65, so that the pilot would immediately know what action to be taken should the airplane exhibit any sign of entering one. It should be seen as being an important part of training - just in case that situation I described above does ever come up in real life, when the student is flying solo.

Personally, I'm not too keen on spinning, but it is important that people know what one is, know the warning signs of it, and know what to do when that wing starts dropping, and failing that, know exactly what to do if confronted with a full blown spin.

[wheels up]

I figure that spin training is important. Not only is it heart warming to be able to recover from an unintentional spin, but spin training definitely gives a student confidence in him/herself and the aircraft.

Most of my spinning experience has been in the C172 / C150 whilst instructing, although I have spun a number of different types. A spin in a C172 can be a very docile manouver if conducted properly, and recovery is usually virtually instantaneous. I have no qualms whatsoever about spinning a C172, and the manouver probably puts less stress on the airframe than a spiral dive demonstration.

For some reason I frequently had students apply full power in the dive following recovery from the spin - probably a response to stall training. I also found a tendency for students to overdo the forward elevator application, occasionally leading to a bunt in the recovery.

I find that the spin demonstration that most instructors do is unrealistic and gives the student the impression that a spin is extremely difficult to get into and requires large and aggressive controls movements. Typically the power will be off, the nose will be raised above the horizon and at the stall full rudder will be applied to induce a spin. In a C172 you need to be quite heavy handed to induce a spin in this way.

If you try the same excercise with 20 degrees of flap and power on, the plane will flick into spin a lot more readily. I am not advocating that you go and spin with the flaps down, since the aircraft is not certified for this, but I used to demostrate the wing drop in this configuration and then catch it before a spin developed. Typically this is exactly the configuration where the low time pilot will get himself into trouble. A scenario would be a go-around from an approach with landing flap, pilot forgets to retract flap, applies power, raises nose to climb attitude, speed bleeds off, possibly crossed controls, wing drop followed by spin.

One exercise I used to practice with my students was controlling the wing drop at the stall with rudder. Lower flap, apply power, raise the nose until the aircraft is at the stall and hold the aircraft at the stall using rudder to control any wing drop tendency - like riding a bucking bronco. If the wingdrop cannot be controlled immediately lower the nose and close power to prevent incipent spin from developing.

In my gliding instructing days I used to "talk" a student into a spin, a typical scenario being a low skidding turn onto final approach. The instructor sets out the scenario to the student that he is returning from a cross country and low on the turn onto final approach. You tell the student to start the turn (at a safe altitude), coax him into raising the nose since he is getting to low, and finally tell him to kick in some rudder since he is overshooting the runway. Suprised a couple of students that way! Most gliders spin readily.

The only aircraft that frightened me in a spin was a C150 Aerobat with a 150 hp engine upfront. The first time I spun it, the aircraft took a good couple of turns to recover, and then only after the control collumn was fully forward. I spun the aircraft on many occasion thereafter and never got it to duplicate the behaviour on the first spin, despite my best efforts.

[Send Clowns]

Rosanna

Part of the problem is that spinning is no longer a required part of the JAA syllabus. Spin awareness is, and I take this to mean at the least a thorough briefing and a demonstration of "incipient" (for me usually from an over-cooked steep turn, as the PA28s will do this nicely). Unfortunately one of my employers has no aircraft cleared to spin.

[cavortingcheetah]

;)

I quite agree with the advocates of spinning. If unspun, once spun you can really become unspun. The PA 38 is, in my opinion, a filthy piece of kit, but, if you pick up a wing at the stall with aileron, especially with full flap selected - the barn door hinge mechanism- the results can be invigorating to say the least. The trouble with teaching spinning in this aircraft ie: ex FAGC, JHB, on a hot highveldt day ie: pressure alt 5,500 ft, temp +35/38c - how do you climb high enougn to recover either safely or within the dictates laid down by the SA ANR ? I used to spin the beast with students but for demonstration purposes only but it cost them a lot of money in the time it took to get up there. Do remember to close the ashtray before demonstrating otherwise you'll get all covered in the volcanic.:p

[ZK-DAN]

I've got a fresh instructor's spinning endorsement, bring it on! It's great fun, just got to talk my students into wanting to spin!

[nyathi]

If spinning is done in an aircraft that is certified for it, and it's done the way it should be done (no funny entry's and all that "jazz" some instructors do to impress/scare there students) then there is no problem. You dont want your lic # or name coupled with somebody that died or had an accident because the got in a spin and didnt know how to recover!!

Just be safe!!!:ok:

[vector4fun]

My experiences:

I was taught spins in an aerobat with 'chutes, and that's the way I would prefer to teach them if asked. (Something aerobatic and with chutes.) At the college I used to work at, we had a dozen or so C-150/152s and a single PA38. One older 150 was the designated "spin bird", because they didn't want to keep buying gyros for the rest of the fleet. Instructors/students caught spinning one of the newer birds could expect to cough up the cost of an overhauled AH if they returned to the ramp with one tumbled.

We were prohibited from spinning the PA38 as well. I most certainly remember the tail wagging quite eagerly during stalls. IIRC, there was an AD for an extra brace on the vertical stab spar because of cracking on the first year models. Later years had the brace installed at the factory. It was an excellent X-country trainer though, more comfortable than the Cessnas for larger folks. I believe the stall/spin accident rate for the PA38 is double that for other common US trainers according to NTSB.

Though it never happened to me in my training, when I started instructing, I did learn that just when you thought a 150 was as tame as an elderly housecat, it would occasionally flick inverted during accelerated stalls.

One drill my original instructor used, which has stuck with me to this day is to have the student put hands in lap while instructor apply (nearly) full aft elevator and neutral aileron. Have student keep wings approximately level with rudder alone. Aircraft gently bucks and rocks in/out of a mild power off stall. Most benign GA aircraft won't spin if you don't let them yaw. We did this in a J-3 while slowly descending 2-3000'. Works well in the Cessnas, sometimes requiring almost full rudder to maintain wings level in turbulence.

[hugh flung_dung]

vector4fun said: One drill my original instructor used, which has stuck with me to this day is to have the student put hands in lap while instructor apply (nearly) full aft elevator and neutral aileron. Have student keep wings approximately level with rudder alone. Aircraft gently bucks and rocks in/out of a mild power off stall. - I've never seen the point of this, what does the student learn?
At ab initio they need to be able to recognise and recover from: the approach to the stall, the full stall, the spiral dive (and ideally the spin). Where does "holding the aircraft stalled and using rudder to keep the wings level" fit into this? I agree that you want them to be able to deal correctly with a wing drop at the stall but the error that needs to be trained out of them is using aileron - having hands in the lap doesn't achieve this.
Most benign GA aircraft won't spin if you don't let them yaw.
Yaw, wingdrop or some other cause of asymmetric angle of attack is required for any aircraft to spin.

PostScript, added 28/Apr.
Maybe the idea is that the student puts their hands in the instructor's lap :E there might be some merit in this with the occasional stude.

[greeners]

Yes - I know a CFI like that....

[Vee One...Rotate]

Still early days of PPL training. I was asked if I was happy to do it and I said yes so my instructor demonstrated a couple and then I did two or three. As well as being a good giggle, I think it does make you more confident in the a/c and your own abilities, despite it not being a mandatory part of the PPL course.

V1R

[What time is ECT?]

My first spin was in a fully developed wing-drop stall - SOLO! I was thus wide awake in the C152 aerobat. Exit spin 500ft later, as others will tell. Now officially rated for the spin, but it should be compulsary for all pilots.

ECT

[LocoDriver]

Glad you are enjoying your spinning 'what time is ect'
I must be the silly instructor who rated yoo!
its fun, isn't it. especially when you are EXPECTING to spin.
ZK-DAN(the man) enjoys it too!, BUT I didnt have the pleasure in rating him, a certain flight examiner pulled rank!
ZK-JBL(The Aerobat) is a great little spinner!
BUT, guys, be warned, they are not all nice and docile and predictable like this one!(The Aerobat, not the instructor)
Be VERY careful when spinning, stay current, stay high, and keep a GOOD lookout!
We share the airspace with Big Burp, and MattyJ.
Signed, YOUR instructor!

[Commander]

"I'd rather be a live mouse then a dead lion" is one of my favorite quotations. The reason for me not willing to demo spins for my students are;
1. Training needed
2. Low time instructor
3. Haven't done a spin since 1992
4. Didn't recieve spin training during my FI/A training nor CPL

Although; I do teach spin entry demos and spiral desents, but a full spin - not for now... but want to be able though.

[Send Clowns]

Didn't receive spin training in the FI course? Where did you do that? Seemed to me a vital part, as to demonstrate safely whilst pattering it demands the most care in the set up, especially that nasty one from the fouled-up go-around that the Cessnas particularly keen to show you. May just be that my FI instructor (one of the most highly-qualified in the country) just happens to enjoy spinning - in fact I know he does - but I genuinely saw it important, even having spun a lot before.

Get up and spin! Come to England, we'll go and autorotate until you enjoy it :E

[Flik Roll]

Question for you instructors...sorry if it's been asked:

As a PPL can i spin solo? I did spinning during my PPL course and loved it, and have done the Spin/Aeros bit of EFT but we aren't allowed to spin solo; but can I in civvy land?

[Send Clowns]

Nothing in the rules against it if the aircraft is cleared and all precautions taken (use the military method of calculating spin height, it is safer than what some civvy instructors teach!). Careful thoguh, and talk to a club instructor before you do so. I first entered an intentional spin as captain of the aircraft when I was an instructor.

[Decent in Descent]

Top Tips for untrained spinners.

1. Wear a parachute.
2. Calculate a Minimum Abandonment Height (MAH)/Altitude.
3. If aircraft has not recovered from spin at MAH, jettison airframe.
4. Refer to point 1.:ok:

[Flik Roll]

Having done both mil and civvy, civvy always seems so gash!
I always feel a little uneasy without a chute!

[hugh flung_dung]

FLIK ROLL, there's nothing in the rules against solo spinning provided you follow the usual safety rules.

Some words of caution:
No two spins are exactly the same.
Some aircraft are very sensitive to stick position and have interesting spin modes; ... make sure an instructor has shown you any surprises that your particular type may have in store for you before you spin solo.
Wear a parachute, pre-plan your abandonment height and remember to check the altimeter as part of the recovery.

Spinning is great fun but needs to be treated with a little more caution than some other aspects of aviation; why not do an aeros course?

HFD

[Flik Roll]

I got checked out for solo and pax aeros last year and love it, but for some reason I didn't cover spinning?
The aircraft I fly in civvy land if fully aerobatic and I have spun in it before (a long time ago!) so plan to go and get checked out. There are no chutes for this aircraft - what are the regs on having your own with regards servicing and packing?

[foxmoth]

I got checked out for solo and pax aeros last year and love it,but for some reason I didn't cover spinning?

No aeros instructor I know would check someone out for aeros without covering spinning, this and recovery from unusual attitudes I consider more important than actually being able to carry out the manouvers properly:sad: :eek:

[Flik Roll]

It did involve recover from unusual attitudes etc etc. but no spin. Bearing in mind I had the same instructor for what I did of the PPL course who had covered spinning with me about 5 months prior and covered spinning with me previously. Shows how gash civvy world is im afraid! I always feel under a greater workload in civvy land due to the, how can you put it...lower airmanship standards of many pilots; just in the circuit alone; and out in the big wide world im afraid it's even worse.

To keep this on topic, spinning in full should be taught to every PPL stude. Ijust can't believe that there are people out there with licenses who have never recovered from a spin or even seen what one looks like. Not to mention the people that think they might go and 'try' some aeros :ugh: Like some guy at GWC as few years back who stuffed a Robin in.

And foxmouth, I agree wholly with you - recovery from the vertical, inverted and other unusual attitudes is far more important. Safety in the air is paramount, perfection comes through safe practise over time.

[foxmoth]

Not to mention the people that think they might go and 'try' some aeros Like some guy at GWC as few years back who stuffed a Robin in.

This chap had actually been properly taught Aeros having done a full AOPA course (not by me but I know the instructor who taught him). His problem was that he decided to ignore what he had been taught about safe heights and try things at low level:suspect: You can only teach people how to do it - afterwards you cannot make them follow what you have taught:rolleyes:

[Flik Roll]

Yeh I know...I fly from GWC

and re-iterates my point on gashness...

[hugh flung_dung]

Flik Roll,
:Rant on.
I'm appalled that an aeros course or checkout did not include spinning! That's gross negligence on the part of the instructor in my (not so humble) opinion and a good opening for your family lawyer if ever you have the misfortune to have a terminally unpleasant experience that involves (or might have involved, m'lud) a spin.
:rant off.

The AOPA course includes precision spins (normally 1.5 turns) and both "academic" spin and spin avoidance but I normally also include spins from a bad roll off the top and a bad stall turn, plus a demo of recovery from aggravated/accelerated spins.
Post-AOPA we get into spins from flick rolls and various other fun areas.

EGLS isn't a million miles from GWC so get in touch if you want to extend your comfort zone.

AFAIK there are no regs for private-use emergency 'chutes in the UK.

HFD

[Flik Roll]

I'm appalled too and being 'niave' to flying at the time I didn't think!
It wasn't the AOPA course I did...

(Now far more aware and a lot less niave)

[foxmoth]

As the same instructor had already covered spinning with you, and not that long before I can understand him not going over it again, especially as in some aircraft the spin is not really worth the name. (I would still have covered this again myself though).

[waldopepper42]

A question to fellow Slingsby pilots:

Have any of you experienced the "high rotational" spin? If so, were any special techniques required for recovery? I have a vested interest, having just checked out on the T67C. I have undergone spin training on this aeroplane, including spins out of various aerobatic manoevres, but did not include this particular variation.

WP

[henry crun]

While not relevant to this thread the following about spinning recovery in the Javelin may be of interest.

If stalled the aircraft would almost inevitably spin.
The direction of spin is usually unpredictable, even from turn to turn.
The rotation is very slow, and the nose pitches up and down fairly regularly, through as much as seventy degrees. The rates of yaw and roll will vary with the pitching. The stick forces are very light throughout, and there is no 'kick back'' on the stick. However, the rudder moves fiercely fully one way and the other, and the forces may be extremely heavy; it is recommended that the feet are merely kept lightly on it throughout the spin. The airspeed varies from "off the clock" to about ninety knots.
When the aircraft is clearly in a spin take the following action;

i) With the control column fully back apply full aileron in the same direction as the spin.
ii) With full aileron applied, move the control column fully forward into the corner.
iii) Keep the feet lightly on the rudder pedals.

It is unlikely that this action will have any effect for one or even two turns; certainly it seldom has any immediate result. The control column should be held fully in the corner; the direction of spin may reverse, and in this case the control column should be held right forward and moved sharply fully over into the new direction of spin.
No force should be used to oppose any rudder movement.
Recovery generally follows one of two main patterns, type (i) being the more usual:
i) The rotation ceases, and the aircraft hangs in a nose-down attitude for a second or two. However the control column must still be held fully in its corner until the aircraft does a sharp nose-down pitch or "bunt". Minus 2 1/2g is about the usual figure for this and is quite unmistakable.
Once the aircraft has done this, the spin has stopped.
The speed rises rapidly, and only then should the controls be centralized, and the aircraft eased out of the dive. Attempts to centralise the controls and recover in the stage when the rotation has ceased, but before the aircraft has "bunted", will lead to a further spin with delayed recovery.

ii) After taking recovery action, the aircraft enters a fast spiral in a steep diving attitude. The spiral may be in the same direction as the applied aileron, or against it, but this condition may usually be recognised because: a) the pitching ceases, b) the speed rises, c) the rate of rotation is steady and fast. Once the speed is over 200 knots, the controls may be centralized, and the aircraft eased out of the dive. The rudder will centralist itself when recovery is complete, and it should be left to its own devices.

[Miserlou]

Waldo,

Although I don't have a lot of time in the Slingsby, I have deliberately abused both the A and 200M models without being able to provoke any abnormal behaviour.

The aircraft gave warning before departure in every case was stopped within a quarter turn.

Due to height restrictions we could not experiment so much with advanced spins.

It's a lovely aeroplane.

[waldopepper42]

Thanks for the comforting words Miserlou - during my spin training (up to 4 turns both right and left) there were no unexpected manoevres, but the POH does mention high rotational spins are possible!

It's back to practicing the aeros for me! :ok:

[hugh flung_dung]

Not sure about the T67 but the Bulldog has a nice high-rot spin mode if the stick is moved forward during a spin whilst maintaining pro-spin rudder - a significant push force is required. Recovery involves returning to full pro-spin inputs and then using a standard spin recovery, if you reverse the rudder without the stick being on the backstop there is a delayed recovery.
Rate of rotation is significant and some people feel "spun-up" for a significant time afterwards.

Words to the wise: do not try this unless you are proficient/comfortable with spins, start at 10,000 ft, wear a parachute and pre-brief a height at which to start abandonment (4000ft?)

[Miserlou]

Both the Slings and the Bulldog have similar tail feather configuration. This is the reason for their idiosyncracies.

Accurate and correct spin recovery technique is the key to coping with them.

[Boeing737]

Top o the morning. On topic i have spin training coming up for my ppl. I am undertaking an IAA ppl, and for this they want all ppl students to have completed spin training, but in saying this, the student has to be demonstrated spin recovery, they dont actually have to carry it out themselves, so its just a matter of sitting there and watching while the instructor throws it around. I will be doing it in a c150 and im feeling a wee bit nervous. I have done stalls before a few years back and incipient spins, where the wing dropped. But this was a few years back. Im just wondering what to expect for spinning?? Is it a violent manoeuvre?? What are the sensations?? I would really appreciate it if someone could provide a little insight into what i can expect to ease my nerves a little. Im will be spinning with my regular instructor, who i trust.
Many thanks! :ok:
regards

Also i thought i would mention, that if it was not mandatory, i would without doubt ask my instructor anyway to demo spin recovery to me anyway, as a little confidence booster and to prepare me for anything adverse.

[Speed Twelve]

waldopepper42,

Incipient spin off manouever recoveries are indeed the best things to practice if you are going to aerobat the Firefly. Provided you apply the incipient spin recovery as soon as you recognise any undemanded roll the aeroplane will come out. As hugh flung-dung pointed out with the Bulldog, the high-rotational spin mode in the Firefly tends to occur when the stick is moved forward before opposite rudder is applied during a fully-developed spin recovery. During the subsequent correct recovery, the stick may go to the forward stop before rotation stops, sometimes resulting in a bunt as the aircraft breaks out of the spin.

Firefly rates of descent in a fully-developed spin can be quite high; the M260 is in the order of 7000 fpm. I am not familiar with the civilian versions of the aeroplane, but I fly both the M160 and M260 at work, and the full spin recovery techniques are subtely different for each type. Basically the M160 uses the 'standard' spin recovery technique, whereas in the M260 there is a 1 second pause between applying full opposite rudder and moving the control column centrally forward.

As regards jumping out, bearing in mind the 7000 fpm descent, we use transition level + height of the ground as a minimum abandonment flight level. In practice, with 1000' to go to minimum abandonment, I'd open the canopy early as a last ditch attempt to alter the spin mode before deciding to step outside.

ST

[G-KEST]

Henry Crun,

With regard to the spin in the Javelin, at least the Gloster variety, I well remember while at school at Fakenham in the early 1950's the solo Javelin aerobatic ace from CFE at West Raynham was doing a practice at medium level in an early mark.

He stalled and departed from controlled flight at the top of a looping manoever and settled rapidly into the flattest erect spin I ever saw until I encountered an unprovoked flat inverted spin in one of the Tiger Club's Super Tigers in, I recall, 1963.

The rotations seemed to be quite leisurely and after around four turns the pilot elected to use the alternative Martin Baker let down and left the aircraft to its own devices. The spin continued to impact only around a mile or so away so, as a keen ATC cadet, I pedalled my bike in that direction to be first on the scene.

The aircraft was in a field and essentially intact apart from the canopy and being a bit flattened on the undersurface. The T mounted tailplane was broken into a grossly annhedralled shape. No fire ensued and after a few minutes the emergency services, both civli and military arrived to assume control.

They quickly escorted me away from my interested and close viewing of, what was then, the latest fighter in RAF service. Much to my disgust at the time.

I believe the Javelin was immediately banned from aerobatics pending the inevitable investigation.

Cheers,

Trapper 69
:8 :8 :8 :8 :8 :ok: :ok: :mad:

[henry crun]

G-KEST: IIRC there was no blanket ban on all aeros.
The pilots notes had a specific prohibition against aerobatics in the looping plane from the time the aircraft entered service because of the danger that you describe.

A number of aircraft were lost in similar circumstances because pilots did not observe this restriction.

[G-KEST]

Thanks Henry,

At the time my membership of the school ATC squadron, number 1361, did not give me access to such esoteric and certainly "restricted" publications as the Pilots Notes or service release information on the Javelin. I am now better informed, thanks to you.

Cheers,

Trapper 69
;) ;) ;) ;) ;) :D :D :D :D :D

[Capt. On Heat]

Interesting reading throughout the thread. Any who have experienced delayed recoveries (I remember WWW's from 8000ft) considered the possibility of the altitude the spin was commenced at adversly affecting the recovery due to the air not being quite so thick? Came from an interesting discussion I had with an old and wise instructor when I was starting out in the game after the CAA consulted him about an instructor in another part of the country who was spinning with a student. The 152 aerobat didn't come out for a frightnening long period of time after numerous recovery initiations and (when the situation became more urgent) doors opening/power application/pair of them shifting their weight from the dashboard to the baggage area. And please no nonsense about the same IAS for a stall please.

[eason67]

I spun today in a PA-38 which was cleared for spinning. The POH (AFE Pilots Guide) describes the tomahawk as an aircraft with classic spin characteristics.
I spun and recovered twice and found it OK, (I haven't spun any other aircraft mind!).
The spin does tighten up but with the correct recovery procedure it recovers. Some don't recover very well and often you only find out when you try it.
I would cerainly refuse to spin in an aircraft not certified for it. It should be practiced once in a while but remember this is an aerobatic manouvere and one where control has to be regained.
Perhaps we should all do an hour of aerobatics a year to keep our hand in??
:)